Vivek Ramaswamy, Entrepreneur & Author | Wokeness & Corporate America's Social Justice Scam

Welcome to success story, the most useful podcast in the world. I'm your host Scott D. Clary. The success story podcast is part of the HubSpot podcast network. The HubSpot podcast network has other great podcasts you should go check out like being boss hosted by Emily Thompson. Now with the holidays just around the corner, you're probably thinking, what's next for you in the new year? What other shows are you going to listen to to level yourself up? Well, on the success story podcast, I interview a lot of entrepreneurs and I usually dive deep into the creative aspects of building a business. So if you are a creative, a creative business owner or you're thinking about eventually becoming one, which at some point, everybody kind of has to be because you have to be a little bit creative in how you build a business, how you market a business, now you sell your product, all that does require some creativity, but also for people that are hyper focused on the creative niche. You may be interested in being boss hosted by Emily Thompson. Being boss is an exploration of not only what it means, but what it takes to be a boss as a creative business owner. If you are into some of the following topics, you're going to love this show, project management and building systems for creatives, freelancers or side hustlers, opening a retail store, rituals that inspire and evoke creativity, and taking time off as a business owner to focus on yourself, your creativity and upskilling. You need to listen to being boss. They cover all these topics and more. You can listen to being boss on any of your favorite podcasting platforms or at HubSpot.com slash podcast network. Today, my guest is Vivek Ramaswamy. Vivek is a successful entrepreneur who's founded multiple successful enterprises and companies. He's a first generation American, he's a founder and executive chairman of Reuvent Sciences, a new type of bio pharmaceutical company that's focused on the application of technology to drug development. He founded Reuvent in 2014 and led the largest biotech IPOs of 2015 and 2016, eventually culminating in the successful clinical trials in multiple disease areas that led to FDA approved products. He was featured on the cover of Forbes in 2015 for his work in drug development. In 2020, he merged as a prominent national commentator on stakeholder capitalism, free speech and woke culture. He's authored numerous articles and op-eds which have appeared in the Wall Street Journal, National Review, Newsweek and Harvard Business Review. Today, we're going to speak to him about wokeness because he is so outspoken on it after a successful career. He has found that wokeness is truly hurting America. So we speak about wokeness in America today. How do we get here? We spoke about woke corporations, whether or not they're a threat to this company and are they actually doing any good and perhaps how companies can actually do good and how we can actually hold companies accountable. We spoke about cancel culture. We spoke about essentialism. We spoke about stakeholder versus shareholder capitalism. We spoke about the dangers of wokeism and idea fixing. We spoke about ways to truly address inequality. And then we also spoke about the troubling, truth surrounding critical race theory. So a lot of hot topics, a lot of controversial topics, but Vivek is a very, first of all, a very successful individual, a very intelligent individual and really brings a great perspective on some of these items. So I really hope you enjoy. This is Vivek Ramaswamy, serial entrepreneur and national commentator on stakeholder capitalism, free speech, and woke culture. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I was born and raised in Cincinnati, Ohio and I don't live too far from there today in Columbus where I'm talking to you from today. My parents were both immigrants. They came to this country in the late 70s in the case of my dad and early 80s in the case of my mom who joined them and they didn't come here with much financially. They came here with an education though and I think that that really helped them live the first arc of the American dream that allowed me to grow up in a stable family household, get a good education. And they taught us one thing when we were growing up. It was that education was the top priority and no one can take something away from you. Once you've learned it, they can take something away that you have physically, but they can't take away something that you know. And I think that really created a good foundation for me to go to public schools through eighth grade went to a Jesuit private high school. I can tell you a small story later if you want about the reason why we made that switch. But yeah, but in any case, I went to Harvard for college studying molecular biology, thought I was going to be a scientist, ended up getting into the world of biotech investing instead. I did that for seven years. I spent three of those years at the same time, it will keep my job at Yale law school. I had this itch at law and political philosophy that I'd never really fully scratched being a scientifically trained person the whole way through. So that was a few productive years I spent from 2010 to 2013 in law school while keeping my job as a portfolio manager at the hedge fund where I was working. Met my wife, she was my next door neighbor, she was in med school at the time, so that was probably the most productive thing that came out of it, but after I came back to my job full time as an investor, I realized that my learning curve had flattened a little bit and perhaps more importantly, there were some issues that I wanted to address in the inefficiencies of developing medicines in pharma that I couldn't do as a passive investor from the sideline. And so I left my job as an investor who's a comfortable position to be in, but I decided to leave it anyway in 2014 to start a new kind of company, you referenced it, Reuven, that was focused on shortening the time of developing medicines by cutting through a lot of the bureaucracy that big parma had historically relied upon to develop medicines. Companies become, you know, if I may say still in our early days, but something of a success, I led the company is CEO for seven years, it's a multi billion dollar enterprise today that's gotten drugs through development, a couple of which have made it through FDA approval. And, you know, proud of those accomplishments, but earlier this year, I turned my attention from working on biological cancer, shall we say, to working on what I view as a major cultural cancer that actually threatens the future of the United States, in my opinion, and really threatens to kill that dream. That American dream that I've had the privilege of living and so I care about that dream, I care about preserving it, I think it means a lot to my kid and his generation. And that's part of why I wrote, woking the book that I'm writing and part of why I'm focusing on the issues that I'm focusing on with respect to reviving shared American identity over the group practice group identity that I think has become quite popular for corporations to be able to push on on the rest of America. I think it helps corporations make an extra box, but I think it leaves Americans worse off as citizens in the end, so probably more than you bargained for there in my introduction, but that's a bit of my. No, it teased it up, it teased it up perfectly, I was reading, I was reading the first chapter of your book and some of the things that you're working on now and that you're passionate about now, these are things that you discovered way back when you were at, you know, working at a hedge fund. Walk me through walk me through one of the stories you told I thought was interesting about initiatives that you were sort of expected to take on as part of this fund and and they didn't really pan out the way that you thought they would and then why that sort of opened your eyes to what what is woke activism versus potentially just virtue signaling for for an organization because that to me it sounded like that was the first. I opening experience that you have well, there's a few there's a few experiences I describe early on in the book, I think. You know some of them come from my experience as an investor, I started my job on the eve of the 2008 financial crisis, so I joined the hedge fund where I work back in 2007. The 08 financial crisis really shook the financial universe and I was at the epicenter of it and I think a lot of the birth of woke capitalism can trace its roots. The birth of certainly the modern aggressive form of woke capitalism can trace its roots to the post 2008 era, I didn't internship at Goldman Sachs, I talked a little bit about that in the first chapter of the book, which I think was my first exposure to the hypocritical. lack of self reflection and the inauthenticity of this new brand of so-called stakeholder capitalism that was an introduction I had dating back to 2006 and you know at the end of the day I've been educated at places like Harvard and Yale along the way I graduated from Harvard in 07 where I feel like I witnessed the birth of woke culture in the universities when Larry Summers who was president of the university had to step down for certain comments that he made that were controversial yes. But I thought we're acceptable within the bounds of acceptable debate whether or not you agreed with what he had to say and watching the president of Harvard taken down from his position and personally serving in the committee actually was the student representative of the committee that selected his successor and having seen that firsthand. Yeah, I think just created a lot of experiences early in my adult life from the later years in my time at Harvard to joining a hedge fund and a lead hedge fund at the thick of the 2008 financial crisis to the internships, I didn't place like Goldman Sachs along the way to more recently starting a venture back company that you know I had to understand a little bit about a world that. Had expectations for what a young entrepreneur was supposed to do in the contemporary postmodern era as it pertains to social issues that I you know eventually grew fed up with a game that I thought centered on pursuing. Profit and power by pretending like you care about something other than the pursuit of profit and power and it's a pretty good gig if you're somebody who's been in the shoes that I've been in you get to have news about the racially impact racially disparate impact of climate change and. Skeetown maybe flying in on a private jet and it's not a bad life, but I eventually just grew fed up with the inauthenticity of that game not because it was hypocritical or not just because it was hypocritical but because I actually thought it was beginning to pose a threat to the integrity of American democracy itself because what it did with this new model of stakeholder capitalism what we call capitalism now. What what it really does is it concentrates power in the hands of a small group of capitalist elites to determine what's good for the rest of society on issues ranging from environmentalism to climate change to racial justice to diversity it says this small group of people who control power in the marketplace. All to also wield power in American democracy and to me that was that was a rejection of what America is supposed to be all about because if America to me is one thing it is a place where every citizens voice is weighted equally in the marketplace of ideas in our democracy. Even if in the marketplace of products more dollars can ultimately vote up the best product to the top that's okay that shouldn't be the way that the marketplace of ideas works in a democracy and to me that felt like a betrayal of what this country was supposed to be all about. Looks a lot more like old world Europe where small group of elites would get in a room maybe labor elites business leads in church elites would get in a room and decide what's good for the rest of society maybe that works for old world Europe but that's not the essence of what America is supposed to be and as a first generation American who who was born in this country to parents who came here and voted with their feet to be here because of the ideals that this country represents. To me I felt a real sense of responsibility to speak up on behalf of those ideals rather than watch ourselves devolve into this corporateocracy that ultimately resembles an old world European model rather than an American model. How did wokeness get to this point where it started in it started it started with in theory. Good you know there was there was good thought behind why we should be woke why we should be more accepting why we should do all of these things to perhaps get rid of some latent ideologies that are not so great that we see in society how has it got to the point where it's almost gone to the other end of the spectrum and now what you're stating is that it's actually a negatively impacting society to a point yeah look I think that when wokeness was born it was about challenging the system about standing up to the system and agree or not there's something about that that I respect for somebody who has the courage to stand up to what the prevailing system is okay but today I think couple decades later wokenism is no longer about challenging the system wokenism has become the system and I think that the untold story of how that took place actually traces back to the 2008 financial crisis when corporations were the bad guys the old left wanted to take money from the wealthy corporations and redistributed to poor people agree or not that's what the old left had to say. but there was the beginning of this new woke movement that began to say actually the real injustice in society wasn't in pop wasn't poverty per se it wasn't economic injustice per se no it was racial injustice and misogyny and bigotry and after oh wait that actually presented the opportunity of a generation for big business and for Wall Street because they could go in one fell swoop from being by definition the bad guys in the eyes of the old left to being the good guys if they wielded their corporate power in the right way and so they started adapted these woke values applauding diversity and inclusion putting token minorities and women on boards and as I said earlier musing about the racially disparate impact of climate change in fancy ski towns and that actually worked out pretty well because corporations were happy to lend not just their money but they're legitimacy to this new woke movement they were happy to use their market power to effectively propagate these woke values but they didn't want to do it for free they had a new expectation that this new left would look the other way when it came to leaving corporate power intact they recognize that maybe they don't love corporate power but at least they would leave them alone if they were using corporate power to advance the goals of the new progressive woke left and that's how this arranged marriage came to be and so to answer your question about how wokeness went from being about a fringe theory that challenged the system to becoming the dominant system in my telling of it certainly in the book and I believe it to be true it is when wokeness met capitalism that it truly became unstoppable that it went from being about challenging the system to becoming the system and if you trace back to the 2008 version of it or the post 2008 version of it what I like to say is a bunch of big banks met a bunch of woke millennials together they birthed woke capitalism and they put Occupy Wall Street up for adoption better than many people so let me ask you a question how often have you signed up for a free trial and then it converted into a paid subscription and you forgot to cancel it or how often have you just not been able to cancel something because the process to cancel that particular monthly service is just horrible and painful and they make you jump through hoops true bill is solving this for you true bill is letting you fight back against scammy subscription services true bill is a new app that helps you identify and stop paying for subscriptions that you don't need you don't want or you simply forgot about on average people save roughly seven hundred and twenty dollars per year with true bill and it's honestly because companies make subscriptions difficult to cancel true bill makes it incredibly simple you just link your accounts to true bill and they cancel everything unwanted with a single click and if something 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want to take advantage of a special promo better help is offering all success story podcast listeners go to better help dot com slash Scott Clary better help dot com slash SCOTT CL ARY so what is better help better help is therapy for lack of a better term it's the best way to give yourself routine maintenance for your mental and emotional well being and the best way to think about therapy is usually through analogies we always get our cars tuned to prevent bigger issues down the road we get annual check ups and we go to the gym to maintain physical health so that we don't get out of shape we want to prevent injury want to prevent disease we do chores regularly so they don't all pile up and have a huge giant mess in your house by the end of the week going to therapy is like all the above it doesn't mean there's something wrong with you it just means that you're investing in yourself and keeping your mind healthy better help is customized online therapy from the comfort of your home it offers video phone and even live chat sessions with your therapist so you don't even have to see anyone on camera if you don't want to you communicate the way you feel comfortable it is so much more affordable than in person therapy and you can start speaking to somebody in under 48 hours take care of your mind before any more bad stuff happens success stories sponsored by better help you get 10% off if you use this specific URL to sign up for your first session to go to better help dot com slash Scott clary better help dot com slash Scott clary and you'll get 10% off better help remember what that was that was what the old left represented wokeness represented a new vision that proved convenient for big business and the funny thing about it is that you know the the woke left in big business I don't think this is really an arranged marriage of love it isn't arranged marriage but I don't think it's an marriage of love I think it's more like mutual prostitution where each side has secret scorn for the other and any marriage in which each side has a scorn for the other is not going to end well but it's a marriage that's working right now as long as each side gets something out of the trade and Silicon Valley has now copied the same thing saying they're going to censor content that the far woke left doesn't want to see online but in return they expect the new democratic party to look the other way when it when it comes to leaving their monopoly power intact that's how this arranged marriages working out right now really well for both sides but the net child the bastard child of that arranged marriage has been the rise of this new woke industrial complex that I think is far more powerful than either big business or big government alone it's a hybrid a combination of the two because each is able to do what the other cannot and I personally think that's actually the biggest threat to liberty today not just big government per se but the new birth of this new woke industrial of I think I want to I want to highlight specific examples because people are listening to this like oh yeah well you know it makes sense and but where can you point to where companies sort of virtue signaled just to placate you know the masses and one one example you brought out was with with Solomon David Solomon taking companies public that have a woman on their board of directors or what not and that's a great that's a great thing it sounds like you know in theory that that's a great initiative but you brought out a data point that was something on the lines of the fact that most of these organizations already had a woman on the board of directors and it actually didn't really impact any organizations that were already IPOing so I mean Goldman Sachs made a declaration yeah in 2020 that it would not front from the mountain tops of Davos by the way that's Davos tends to be a place where people go to make these proclamations I've learned so so from Davos he says that gold women will not take a company public in the United States by they don't apply these standards in Asia that they just kind of look the other way over there but in the United States won't take a company public unless it has at least one diverse board member where they didn't really say what Kevin has diverse for them they kind of said our focus is on women. Well it turns out that in 2019 by the end of 2019 certainly there wasn't a single one of the 500 companies in the S&P 500 that did not have a woman on their board let alone one diverse board member and so they ultimately managed to exhibit courage precisely when the thing they were doing lacked any modicum of courage at all they were just conforming what I like to say is that's just Goldman Sachs doing what Goldman Sachs does earning another great risk adjusted return taking no downside risk but getting all the PR benefit taking an already popular social value and prominently emblazoning the Goldman Sachs logo on the very front of the social cause but the list of examples just goes on and on I mean it's in some sense unfair to pick on Goldman Sachs because basically every major company in corporate America is doing the same thing if you're Coca-Cola it's a lot easier to complain about voting laws in Georgia that make you sound more like a super PAC than a software manufacturer or or have employee trainings on how to be less white by the way that's an actual linked in learning module that they sent out to their employees until they were called out on it. It's a lot easier to do those things than to reckon with the impact of your own products on the nationwide epidemic of diabetes obesity by the way in the very black community that they profess to care so much about or if you're Nike it's great to criticize slavery 250 years ago. It's a lot harder to give up your reliance on slavery in the present day through your supply chains reaching out in Asia it's a lot easier to criticize the United States and take take down the Betsy Ross flag sneaker that they wanted to release in 2019 because Colin Kaepernick thought it was indisha of racism without saying a peep in China where we see true human rights atrocities today over a million weakers in concentration camps Nike doesn't say a word in fact John Donahoe just in the last month see of Nike goes to China and says that we are a company of China and for China that's his quote not mine. This is this is actually how this game is played is this two faced behavior in the United States in a broad is supplicating to the CCP lying prostrate like a lap dog but that same lap dog bites the United States at every possible turn and I think that hypocrisy reveals the essence of what's going on. They're doing whatever allows them to make the most money or aggregate the greatest power in China to be hidden one way by not criticizing injustice and nowadays in the woke moment in the United States it's doing the exact opposite finding injustices to criticize as a way of exhibiting moral superiority. Now you make another statement that this is not just not just placating masses but also detrimental to traditional American ideology. Potentially you said like you know pursuing the American dream and having opportunities and and all these things that are you know they are so congruent with what Americans hold so true and dear to them now how how is this going to potentially negatively impact these traditional American ideologies what what's the what's the bridge between. So I'll give you a simple low hanging fruit because some people may disagree on the importance of certain American ideals over others and get into that but actually think that it that this new trend undermines American solidarity as we know it because any divided. Politics body politic like ours okay in America in a healthy democracy where people disagree and debate one another and have fears disagreements in the sphere of politics the thing that we need in order to bind ourselves together as one people is other spheres of our lives a political spaces where we could all come together irrespective of whether we're black or white irrespective of whether we're Democrat or Republican. I mean the baseball stadiums of America are a perfect example of where people come together for their love of sport for their love of watching sport and you don't have to know whether the fan next to you supports your politics or not you probably don't and that's a beautiful thing about it the private sector. Running a biotech company one of the beautiful things about it is that you come together because you care about developing medicines for patients who need them not because you have one view or another on a particular political hot button issue of the day and now with the spread of this woke capitalist brand. We lose those a political spaces no one can go to a major league baseball game anymore without also implicitly endorsing the major league baseball stand on moving its all star game from Atlanta to Colorado this year in a flagrant display of virtue signaling without actually probably even having read the voting statute that they were protesting in Georgia going to a state that actually doesn't have dramatically different voting laws in the first place but did it just because it was an opportunity to signal virtue. Maybe that benefits the MLB in the short run maybe it doesn't we can debate that but it hangs America out to dry because it again eviscerates one more space that could have brought us together in a divided moment that we have now lost to as biotech companies go the same thing happens where. Pete whether you're on the left or the right black or white you could come together say I want to pursue the development of medicines for patients who need them but now the biotech industry association bio the lobby group that represents the biotech companies says that it encourages companies to consider this investment in states that pass laws like the ones in Georgia. And that effectively have forces people to signal what political tribe they're in where I personally think that the thing we need to do isn't to force capitalism and democracy to share the same bed. What we actually need is to keep them apart from one another in order to preserve the integrity of each and I think that if we continue to force capitalism to mix with democracy we will be left with neither and in my mind those are the two parents of America capitalism and democracy. Both in 1776 the year of the Declaration of Independence and the year of the wealth of nations individualism unity all in one that is what America is at its best and we need both of those parents of America sometimes those parents may run rough shot over the other. And sometimes in order to save the baby you actually need to keep the parents apart this may be one of those cases where America needs to do the same thing. You know when you when you break it down like that it actually and you made a reference to you know you're up hundreds of years ago when there was issues separating church and state. And now this is it seems to be you know history repeats history repeats itself now we're seeing the issue of separating capitalism and state. Yes and I talk about this a lot in my book America is all about in a tip trace this back to the church and state separation and I'm glad you brought it up. It's all about keeping the different institutions that undergird America intact and sometimes in order to keep them intact you have to keep them apart from one another. And to me that is what true American pluralism is actually about the plurality of institutions that undergird America without saying that all of them have to be doing the same thing which is what stakeholder capitalism or woke capitalism demands. You don't want the church in the state doing the same thing because you'll have neither a church nor a state left similarly you don't want capitalism doing the same thing as our political democracy or either one will actually fail in what it is it's essential purposes supposed to deliver same thing with respect to universities or museums or schools or sports let each one stand for its own unique purpose but by mixing their purposes with one another we're left with one. A malgamated gamish that is an unrecognizable and flawed form of each leaving us with the benefits of none of those things and to me American pluralism includes the integrity of our museums our sports our educational institutions our politics our private sector our economy let each of those things flourish in their own right. I say the same thing about American identity and what American pluralism means at the level of these institutions I also said the same thing within two is part of the woke agenda is to say that you are reduced to a white male and I don't know much about your sexual orientation but whatever it is that those are the fact those are the factors that undergird your identity and for me I am a brown man who is cis straight male. And I think that reducing somebody to those narrow characteristics also defies pluralism because part of American pluralism is about the plurality of identities within each of us I'm not just a man I'm a father I'm a son I'm a brother I'm not just a scientist I'm an entrepreneur I'm well been trained as a lawyer I started a company I've been an investor I'm not any one of those things I am all of those things at once and so are you and hopefully a good deal more. And I think that part of this new woke movement is rejecting that vision of the pluralism within two to say that we have to reduce ourselves to be one thing just as each of our institutions in America have to. So you no longer have to choose between a chemical or a drug or prescribed fix for hair or some sort of surgery or just no results now there is a natural holistic option that actually delivers results for your hair this is neutral. And neutral does promote hair thickness hair growth and whole body wellness so of course genetics are a cause of hair loss. Neutrophil goes beyond that because there are actually five other causes for hair loss that go beyond genetics so you have hormones nutrition metabolism environmental factors and stress. Neutrophil targets all of these five factors so even if you don't have the genetic predisposition to lose hair there are other things that could cause you to lose hair. Neutrophil is targeting all those helping with all those. 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And that's something that I think is is is definitely hurting when you when you sort of dive into it but these conversations these conversations the one that that we're having the reason why you wrote the book these conversations don't happen because when they do happen red flag goes up right stuff gets shut down it's you know and even I was I was listening to the CEO of of snowflake and he was speaking about he actually went on some new. Some news channel about how you know he he hires for he doesn't hire folks on diversity he hires based on merit and that obviously pissed off a lot of people and but he was trying to be honest he said he said this is what a lot of CEOs and Silicon Valley and start up land do regardless of what you'd like them to do. And I feel like when people say that or when they try and speak about the reality they shouldn't be victimized this should start a conversation about what's actually happening so there's a long winded way of saying how do we actually how do we actually hold companies accountable to be better. When all they're doing is just virtual signaling and have millions of dollars and billions of dollars pounds or comp behind their comms department behind the marketing department and they know what to say and I know exactly how to say it what's the fix for this. Yes I think the fixes is twofold right I think one is well I think it's threefold I think a lot of companies aren't inherently. Political at the top but there's CEOs just do whatever makes life easiest for them okay so if there's going to be one vocal stakeholder group that they need to appease and there's no cost to appeasing them they do the cost benefit analysis and say okay we'll go well. Well I think that I think that we as citizens as consumers shouldn't make it so easy for a CEO to make that decision I think that haven't been a CEO myself I can tell you that's the way somebody thinks about a decision what's the cost and benefit for the business okay well if the cost of compliance with the woke demand of the day isn't costless anymore I think that that's one method of getting back on track. Another method of getting back on track involves actually recognizing some of the legal benefits that corporations enjoy for the pursuit of profit because we say that that's what we need to do in order to incentivize great people to build great things things like limited liability for shareholders things like the business judgment rule which prevents an executive or a director from being sued for a business decision which goes badly in retrospect. That's the rules of the game when you expect that companies are making products and providing services for the pursuit of profit but when we use those corporate benefits to not just make products for profit but to pursue a social agenda much much in the way a political campaign would. Well political campaigns don't have those benefits neither sort of company when it's effectively waging the equivalent of a political campaign but hiding behind the veneer of limited shareholder liability or the business judgment rule which are favorable treatment corporations that get in court that ordinary people or ordinary activists or ordinary political figures don't so I think that we need to roll backs the scope of some of those legal protections to make sure that they're only covering the scope of activities they were initially intended to cover that's something I talk a lot more about my support. Maybe relatively technical but the effects could be far reaching but I think the third answer is there is no denying that the fact that some of the demand for what companies are doing comes from newly woke consumers consumers who say that I want to find meaning in the products that I buy and to buy them from companies that share my values and there's no legal fix for that you know that's that's in part the way a free economy works. I think the deeper problem there those a generational cultural problem where you have an entire generation people my age and your age maybe maybe younger than each of us that are so hungry for a purpose hungry for a cause hungry for identity really that they are going to latch on to the first thing that someone sells them rather than doing the hard work of finding that purpose that sense of that sense of a cause that sense of identity from within and as we have seen patriotism. I'm going to say it has has nearly disappeared in our country we have relocated those religious impulses to the sphere of commercialism to the sphere of wochism to the combination of wochism and commercialism to say that I'm going to find the meaning in the product that I buy be it a cup of coffee or be it a brand of shoes rather than recognizing that actually the thing that may fill my moral void isn't going to be the thing that I buy at the store it might actually have to be something part of these. It's a deeper that teaches me actually to believe in something that's far deeper and possibly far more unifying across Americans and across human beings than the divisive tribal identity politics that might divide us into better consumers. I think that's the hardest work we're going to have to do as an American people is reviving the shared sense of identities and causes that bind us as Americans and as human beings and as people rather than the skin deep social causes and the skin deep identities that many corporations are willing to sell us to meet that superficial demand to make an extra buck much like a Virginia Slim's manufacturer might have targeted insecure teenage girls in the 1990s. Now companies are targeting a morally insecure generation as a way of praying on those insecurities to make a buck and I think that there's nothing illegal about that but I think that what we need to do in our culture is revive a shared sense of finding causes and meaning and purpose and identity in things that go beyond the things that we take out our pocketbook to buy at the store. One we're going on on all these topics now and I just wanted to bring one more up that I that you've spoken on before. Where does where does critical race theory intersect with this concept? How does it how does it have any sort of correlation with wokeism and some what companies are doing. Yeah so so I think it plays a big role I mean critical race theory is sort of the intellectual progenitor of the woke movement which effectively says that your prisoner of the color of your skin that if you're black you're inherently disadvantaged and oppressed if you're white you're inherently privileged and an oppressor irrespective of your economic upbringing irrespective of the other factors and features of your life. And that defines what the American dream stands for the American dream says that irrespective of the color of skin no matter who your parents were where they came from what language they spoke you can achieve anything you ever want in this country with hard work determination and your own dedication and to me that defines what America stands for but it does so in a dangerous way because America unlike most countries in human history. Isn't just a place it's a vision of what a place could be it's an idea and in the fragility of that idea depends on the way that we describe that idea and so here's what the even the well intended progressive left misses is that the way we describe America affects the way America actually works it affects what America actually becomes it actually affects the way the next generation thinks about our country. And if we describe America as a racist country we might actually make America a more racist country and I think that that's what we're beginning to see right now is that the the pursuit of anti racism is actually breeding more racism in all directions anti white racism anti black racism in response and I think that that fracturation that that. You know I think division of America to a breaking point the fractionation of America to a breaking point by the anti racist theorists that may have some of them at least may have begun with with pure intentions have inadvertently done damage that if we don't turn that time threatens to become irreversible especially when then outside powerful forces like companies like even the Communist Party of China who's actually using this I think to be able to divide America from within and exhibit China's moral superiority on the global stage when it becomes mixed with the powerful self-interested forces that then becomes unstoppable and that's we're in the middle of that transformation right now which is part of why I really feel compelled to step out and call this out shine sunlight on this issue so I'm writing a book about it but even more importantly deliver some solutions. And what's what's your solution for you know it seems like everybody in in America is now in their own little echo chamber of their own thoughts and that's I think is the biggest issue for for both sides so how do you how do you bridge that gap how do you this flywheel echo chamber that's been propagated by COVID and by isolation and people not being able to really I feel like communicate properly with each other for the past year and a half. So to get these conversations reengaged yeah I mean look I think that I'm hopeful that the return to normalcy now will provide a tailwind for people to break down all kinds of barriers physical barriers emotional bears computer screen barriers like one that we're putting on display right now to be able to to build on a lost solidarity that I think COVID made worse but it wasn't the origin of the root cause of it we were already heading in that direction and and I'm hopeful that people use this occasion to have conversations in person and you know to be able to get together in person with one another to also break down the other silos between us that originate in a culture of fear that I think we've all suffered from for the last five years fear of expressing yourself for fear of losing your job or your kid getting a bad grade at school or becoming a pariah in your community to instead be able to express what we actually believe to one another agree or disagree because I think that democracy depends on the free exchange of ideas and I think this is what we're doing. It's new culture of fear in this country where you know I think according to a recent survey 60% of Americans in a widespread survey said they were afraid of expressing their true beliefs in public that included Democrats and Republicans both by the way that's not America is not the country that my parents came halfway across the world and joined it is not the country that I learned a pledge allegiance to as a kid. I think that isn't going to come from some politician or some electoral process it's going to come from our culture and so I'm hopeful that the return to normal say the eagerness that I see the evenness that I have by the way myself but I see in others too to begin to see people who we haven't seen in a long time and meet new ones in the flesh in person hopefully can be one of those things that provides a tailwind in a direction that I think we've actually experienced as a headwind for the last year and keeping people apart from one another. So closing thoughts on anything we didn't touch on on the book that you wanted to bring out because I wanted to do I always do this a couple of rapid fire career questions just for people that want to learn from your. Let's wrap with those. Let's wrap with those okay cool and then we'll get some we'll get some links we'll get all that in the show knows people go check what's the date when the book actually drops to the book officially hits stores on August 17. It's available for pre-order now and so you can get the first full early chapter of the book I think if you pre-order it now so. All right all right let's get into this you you know people want to learn from you largest but largest biotech IPO of 2015 2016 obviously you've done a lot of impressive stuff over your career so. Career career life lessons largest challenge over your entire career what was it how did you overcome it yeah so. The hardest challenge in my career by and away was the first major drug that we developed was a drug for Alzheimer's disease bit a graveyard for drug development in pharma but that's actually part of what made it all the more important to pursue as a new area for drug development. Develop the drug all the way through phase three and turn over the cards and it was a failure it was probably the first major failure I encountered in my life and it was a big one it wasn't a small one. And for me that was that was devastating for a period of time for sure it was something that I had I didn't I knew for sure that there was risk a lot at every step of the way of course there is a drug for Alzheimer's disease but it felt like I was within striking distance of changing. Really changing medical history for the better doing something for my company that would have permanently created a a behemoth that you know eventually we did get drugs to patients but it was years later before we did. It was it was pretty devastating for me and you know I think I learned I relied on I think lessons that I had learned a long time ago from my parents from the conditions in which I had grown up that at the end of the day. The hardship really isn't the same thing as victimhood and you know hardship something you encounter victimhoods a choice and the question for you is whether hardship is the kind of thing that you're strengthened by or whether it's the kind of thing that breaks you and you know for me that was probably the closest I got to it breaking me but. But at the end of the day I was able to harness strength from it both personally in as an organization and the people I worked with and and I think today it's been a long time after and it took a while for me to be able to say this but I think today I can say that it was something that strengthened me and gave me fortitude that I wouldn't have had if I hadn't been through that experience but. That's the lesson of how I overcame it I'd be remiss if I didn't also say something that I wish I had done a better job along the way. And that's this I think that you know when you encounter hardship I think you don't have to deal with it on your own and as the founder and the CEO of the company I felt like it rested on my shoulders to to not only strengthen and fortify myself but to fortify the company to. And I think that one of the things that I might have done better is is actually rely on the people around me I think they were they were ready to be there for me and we were ready to be there for one another and. You know I think I think we might have we might have bounced back even faster if I was willing to if I was willing to rely on the people around me more than I did and I was operating under the illusion that I had to leave them and didn't really you know couldn't show. My own weakness in terms of how vulnerable I felt on the back of that failure and if I were to do it again I think I think I might lean on the people more around me and that be the device I'd be given to someone else when they encounter hardship to is don't make yourself a victim victim is a choice learn from hardship and be hard and buy it and be strengthened by it. But you don't that doesn't mean you have to do it on your own you can rely on the people around you too and those two things can go together. Good advice one person that had a major impact on your life who was it and what did they teach you. So many people have impacted my life in a lot of ways. But one who I'm going to have to well maybe I'll call out right now is is my dad who reflected the his ability to succeed in his own right in a way that. He didn't have to have anyone else recognize in order to achieve his own definition of success and so. You know he worked over career GE. He worked under Jack Welch's tenure which was difficult for if you work in the even the Ohio plant of GE where there was. A tenure of ruthless layoffs that you know threatened you know threatened his job security he chose to go to night classes. Went to law school did did something that I did as well at went to law school at the same time as having a day job but it was under very different and much more challenging circumstances with two kids. Job security on the line you know I would often have to go with him to his night classes because my mom had to take care of my brother. And that was actually my first introduction to law and when I got interested in politics I would say is tracing those car rides that I would have for my dad on the way back from night class. To home and talking about some opinion that Anthony and Antonin Scalia had written or whatnot that was probably made me the only sixth grade who had heard of it and Scalia but but it was my introduction to into the world of legal politics but putting that to one side. You know my dad he didn't succeed in a way that would make the cover of a magazine or or be highlighted on television as an American success story he retired after a perfectly proud career at GE but for him the full complement of his life was raising. His family and bringing up two kids who were able to get an education and build a life for themselves to be able to do it on his own terms and ways that weren't designed to impress anyone else along the way he had a humility about it but it wasn't a false humility it was a humility that originated in the fact that he thought there were certain things that were important that he wanted to do. And it wasn't to impress anybody else or to show up on a magazine cover in his case that I take a lot of inspiration from because there's a lot of freedom that comes from being liberated from someone else's expectations for you and my dad definitely doesn't live by anyone else's expectations and I think that's something that gives me inspiration at this day. What would be a book or podcast that you'd recommend people go check out. It's a good podcast called presidential put out by the Washington Post that goes through every one of the presidents in US history I'm in the kind of in the middle of it right now it's probably why I came to mind but it was my way of actually we're debating what history we should be teaching our kids critical race theory or not but not talking enough about actually what our actual history was and so I've studied US history in high school and in college but. Made me want to go back and learn some of the untold lessons of American history and I've definitely learned a few that caused me to view our own history of how we got to where we are a little different so check it out. Good and you you did touch on this but if you want to add anything I always ask some less than you tell your 20 year old self you're younger self oh okay. Yeah it's kind of what I said earlier you don't have to do it alone and I think that that's different than saying that you need to you know that that you need to view yourself as disadvantaged or weak or whatever and I think that's something that pervades. The next generation right now is we teach people that victimhood is the currency to get ahead and I'm a big advocate of of people being able to achieve what they want to on the base of their own merit their own dedication and their own hard work but that that doesn't mean that you have to do it alone too and I think those two things go together that'd be my best advice for somebody who's 40 years old to them. What does success mean to you? Having fun and being happy doing something that matters that's success. I love it okay most importantly where do people connect the social website all that. Yeah there's you know I recently put up a website ahead of launching the book Vivek Ramaswamy.com find me there I recently engaged on social media too Twitter Facebook I'm on all of the places as well so find me on Twitter Vivek Ji Ramaswamy. Find me on Facebook you can find my website Vivek Ramaswamy.com and stay in touch. Alright awesome man that was perfect that's all I got. Awesome thanks for having me that was awesome thanks for being on all I really appreciate all the clips. That's fun let me know when it goes up through an email and we'll go from there.