Bob Meers - Ex-CEO at Reebok & LuLulemon, CEO at Better for All | Creating a Brand that Impacts

Today, my guest is Bob Mears, a highly accomplished CEO with a history of leading several prominent companies including Lululemon and Reebok. Currently at the helm of Better For All, a green packaging firm championing environmental sustainability, Bob brings a wealth of leadership experience to the organization. Previously, he served as CEO of Lululemon Athletica from December 2005 to June 2008, taking a small yoga apparel business to a billion dollar international public enterprise. Before that, he served as president and CEO of Reebok. During his 15-year tenure at Reebok, the company grew from $13 million to $3.5 billion in sales. Welcome to success story. I'm your host, Scott Clary. The success story podcast is part of the HubSpot podcast network. For everyone listening, I just have to ask you a question. If you want to know what separates the contenders from the pretenders, the A-list from the sea list, world champions from the world, not champions, it's pretty simple. 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Yeah, I would say that I don't look upon myself as a contrarian or even a wild and crazy guy, so my entrepreneurial, my entrepreneurial itch really had a couple of inflection points. One really early in my career, I was in the audience of when the head designer of Porsche was explaining what he did for a living and he was very emphatic about saying, I do not design cars, I design speed and he put a 9-11 up on the screen and he said, and that's what speed looks like. And that was like a aha moment for me that said, if you can develop product that actually have attributes that the consumer is looking for, then you're not relying on fashion, but function will be the fashion that will dictate your product. The second was more recently a few years ago now, but McDonough wrote a book on cradle to cradle and as a businessman every time we did a budget, we were always looking to reduce waste, reduce cost, reduce this and reduce that and he said, don't reduce, eliminate. And I thought started thinking to myself whether it was re-bark or whether it was little lemon or whether it was other ventures that I had been on, how much waste I had put into the end of the world and then I started thinking to myself, if there were a way to combine function as fashion with a way to eliminate waste, then I think I would have finished my business career successfully. And I guess that's ultimately what led to better for all and I think that it's very interesting to look at your view on business and what successes earlier on in your career and how that's changed to a degree as you've progressed in your career and you've had an incredible career. I mean, you so just to name the companies that are the notable companies and I'm sure when there's notable companies, the whole bunch of other experiences that you've gone through but I mean, Lululemon, CEO, Syrotech, CEO, Reebok, CEO, so an incredible list of companies. Walk me through the perception of how you like to build a business then and what is most important versus you said the second inflection point, the reducing the waste. What is the most important thing that you now value when you're building? Well, first of all, most of my business career has been spent in the athletic industry whether it be in sports or fitness and that is an incredibly dynamic industry. Product is always changing, athletes are always changing, the spirit of the arrow is always changing in terms of what's generationally relevant and you really need to be on your game. So what I just intuitively look for is is there a consumer movement? Is there something happening in the world that's going to happen with me, without me and it is looking for a solution? That's number one for me. The second thing I look for is product. Is there a product being demanded that is not being fulfilled? Certainly in sustainability, there's an opportunity to have reusable, not single use. There's an opportunity to have compostable, not recyclable and there's an opportunity to have renewable, not using natural resources. There's the opportunity for the product there. The next thing is to make sure that you have an ample supply of the material you need to make your product successful and that requires size and scale and then manufacturing in terms of size and scale and then you have to have the right people. You have that, you've got yourself a successful operation. Now as a CEO, you really have to have a clear vision that you can articulate. You need to put the right people in the right spots. You have to set the pace and then it's your responsibility to get the roadblocks out of the way, whether it's capital or internal discussion. Once you do that, I'm telling you, you're going to have a successful business. I love that and one thing that I think I want to pull out of you because I thought it was very interesting and you refer to yourself as an entrepreneur. I agree with that but maybe somebody who's listening is thinking he's worked in all these C-suite positions, entrepreneur, what do you mean? Do you believe that you're an entrepreneur? Do you believe that a CEO is an entrepreneurial role or the best CEOs have to be entrepreneurial? Yeah, I'm not sure I do see myself as an entrepreneur. I see myself as liking to write the rules of a business as opposed to managing someone else's rules. So I would have to say that whether I did not found Reebok, I came in, the company was relatively small and was able to work with it and help it grow to a multi-billion dollar international company and make lots of acquisitions and mold those acquisitions into a group of high-performing companies. Same thing with a little limit, it was there, it was successful in Vancouver. It had its own issues in terms of the ability to manufacture product, get the right kind of fabric, put the right people in place who could actually scale the business and be successful in the United States, come out of the Canadian marketplace. But I enjoy that because there was a consumer movement in yoga, there was a consumer movement in Reebok's early stage of running and then aerobics that we were able to tap into and then produce product that moved from being foot covering to a performance enhancing piece of equipment or a peril that was a great t-shirt to a performance enhancing piece of equipment that you wear on your body. That to me is where I get my enjoyment is allowing people to make a difference in the products they make. I'm not a price guy. I don't think I've ever been involved in a business successfully where I had to rely on being the low-cost guy. I like innovation. I like the function is fashion and let people really gravitate to that. I think it's super entrepreneurial. That mindset is very entrepreneurial and I think there's also different kinds of CEOs but the way that you've positioned yourself, you see the future. You see the consumer shifts and that's actually how you've been very successful and I'm very curious, how do you identify those? You mentioned a few times even with sustainability as a major consumer shift in the past roles as well. Consumer shift and riding that wave is something that you have to identify. How do you do it? Successfully. Repeatedly. There's a playbook somehow. The difference between a FAD and a consumer movement is you start seeing it being picked up in products trying to associate with it. There's influencers. So I kind of look for who's trying to associate themselves with this particular movement that doesn't make natural sense. But in the cases of sustainability, you don't have to look far. We're in a crisis. This is not a matter of me finding a movement. It is a movement searching for an answer. And this is global. It is not something that's in Canada or it's not something in the United States. It's everywhere. So you see this and you see that there's an opportunity there and you're right. It's a problem as opposed to just an opportunity. It's something that most businesses should be focused on but ultimately not all are. Not all are as focused on it as what you're doing. Like the business model, the thesis of the business focuses on sustainability. So there is the opportunity there. So say you're a business leader and what you're trying to do is you're trying to effectively tap into this movement but also make a part of your core business. So it's not just a nice to have but it's actually integral in how you build out your processes and you build out your product and you communicate with your customer. So for example, for better for all, you focus on sustainability as a key component of your business. How do you do that effectively? Well, I mean, first of all, with sustainability, you don't have to look very far. You've got the tip of the spear being the Gen Z population that is 88% of them according to McKenzie, just think companies are blowing smoke in terms of their trying to ease their way into sustainability or trying to use solutions that already exist that really are not sustainable. We've got 40% of that same population with making decisions on what companies they purchase and what companies they support based on that companies commitment to the climate, commitment to the planet and commitment to sustainability. That to me is a business opportunity. And when you look at what companies are pushing, they're pushing old solutions. There is no recycling, let's be candid, there's 5% or less of recycled product goes into recycling and then the recycling process in terms of sorting is so labor intensive that even a smaller portion of that gets recycled. People are tired of single use, they really want reusable but not reusable forever, they're looking for reusable to they want to get rid of it. But when they want to get rid of it, they want it to disappear in a reasonable amount of time. And then they look, what's this product made of? Am I depleting the planet's natural resources? So from my standpoint in terms of whether you're talking to an entrepreneur, why fight it? The consumer who has actually influenced the generation above them, the generation below them and actually is leading it, is making a demand that is not going to go away. Do you think they get out of the way and make it happen? Do you think people fight it because they're concerned about it's complicated, it's expensive? Like all the regular pushback, this is already difficult for me to figure out, I'm just trying to build a basic business, I don't have to add layers of complexity onto it. Just to play a devil's advocate, what are the reasons why somebody wouldn't do this? Availability? I know we took a look when we first started the business packaging. Yeah. You know, packaging is sitting right there, but now you're the product, now you're the item that you tear away to get at the product you bought, and now what do you do with it? The ideal thing is to have the product disappear in a reasonable amount of time. But what we chose to do with better quality, we make a cup, so we make a variety of cups because one, it's universal, they used all over the world, number two, they normally in a celebratory way either with a cup of coffee or a cold ring or a dull beverage. And that, in it's big, so there's a big opportunity, I was thinking I was looking last week or recently at just the red cup, you know, they're producing 7.4 billion a year, units a year, I mean I think to myself, if you can just take a percentage of that business, you're going to have an impact on the planet, not take them away from it, just have an impact. So why would a company go against it, I've run into this myself, this will be a re-bark story. So we had enormous success bringing out a line of shoes designed for aerobics, and we expanded around those items with soft garment leather, white product, and they were very, very successful. Your success becomes your anchor because you're so busy filling the demand, you're not innovating behind that demand, and more importantly, you're not coming with the car of the future. And so consequently, we peaked, we started to go down, and then we needed to come out with something that fit consumer demand, so we came out with the pump. And the consumer was saying, loud and clear, no different than sustainability. I want a product that gives me more support. I want a product that gives me protection. I want a product that gives me custom fit. I go back to my days with the Porsche guy, and I take a look at the pump shoe, and I say, does that shoe give you support protection and custom fit? And is it unique enough looking that it doesn't look like everything on the market? And that thing saved Reback's butt. So I look at companies, why are they resisting it? Candidly, it might be because they don't have time to look at something, or it's not readily available in what they're doing, or even worse than that, that they're going to require them retooling. And I would say it's more expensive not to change than it is to change. That's not a euphemism. I've been in the seat where you held on and turned the lights on on the industry. And that is not a fun thing to do. That's expensive. You know, one thing that you've done very well across again, all the companies is, and you mentioned this briefly at the beginning, it's never been a race to the bottom. You focus on building a product that can command a price point in the market that allows you to create the best possible product, and that gives you margin to allow you to conduct business in a different way. So if, for example, a sustainability focused company, say, the product isn't as cheap. I'm assuming that the cogs on that product is slightly more than a non-sustainable product. But you've built brands that support that business model effectively so that you can charge for a product that's a little bit more expensive to make or produce. I don't even know. I could be incorrect. I could be totally the same and happy to have that conversation. But the point I'm making is, as somebody who's done this repeatedly, how do you build that brand that allows for that price point in the market, that allows for buyers to be okay spending a premium amount of money on whatever you're selling? Well, I'm going to have to answer all of both sides of my mouth. Go for it. I think to answer your question and your short answer is, who influences the buyer? How do you influence the influencer so that you get your trend setter, putting the product, taking the product, you get the early adopter, taking the product, you get the general population to get in the product and the pyramid builds? And so you're always looking for, do I influence through my yoga instructor, do I influence through my coach, do I influence through my school, do I influence through my team, but how do I influence somebody? The other one is coming out of the other side of my mouth. You can't price this product based on cost because you look at the tech industry. You've taught us anything with Amazon and you take a look at Tesla. You've got to price it to where you get, you can get the volume, you can get the efficiency, you can get the raw material cost down, and you get the accesses to cross at some time in reasonable future. But you're pricing the product at a slight premium, not an obscene premium, and you keep your operating expenses at variable expense rather than fixed. So you've got to, you've got to look at what business am I in. We've chosen to be in the design development and marketing business. Now what we look for, do we have experts in source and material, do we have experts in manufacturing, do we have experts in social media and marketing and advertising and promotion that we can access so that our expenses are variable and we don't make them fixed into we actually have the top line revenue and margins to be able to support the company. So I would advise people, don't bury a company in fixed expenses that are not your core business. Walk me through because we've spoken about all the benefits of sustainability and they're quite obvious. And even from a business lens, it seems like it's a no brainer, but there's obviously challenges or like significant challenges outside of just access. So what are some other challenges that you experienced in better for all that maybe you wouldn't have experienced in any of the other businesses that you've worked in? Well, everything, I would have to say that I am a newbie, I'm a newbie to sustainability. Our lead product is a woman, a Reagan Kelly, she has converted me, she is non-compromising, she studies the business, she lives it breathes, it sleeps, it eats, it drinks it and and it convinced me that, you know, this is the way we want to go, we don't want to be what people tear off to get what they buy, we want to be what they buy. And so now, what do we, what do we have to do? We had to find a material, but all the manufacturers who, in the only way to make money in manufacturing is keep your machines producing product. We had to find somebody who was willing to experiment with a material that didn't operate like plastic, that required a different mold, that, you know, you couldn't jam in there. We didn't even know if we could make it and so we had to find a manufacturer that was as committed to sustainability as we were and give us the time to experiment, because there are a couple of years and we refused to put in fillers. We refused to put in any kind of contaminant and we refused to put in anything that would contaminate the release of the product from the mold and, you know, candidly it took us a couple of years to get about 70% there and then we were able to really get the attention. So we were able to get the attention of a material called PHPH and that is a product that is made from fermented vegetable oil and it was made 20 years ago by a Japanese company called Connacop. It's fabulous. It has a great range of heat tolerance. It's pure, it composts commercially, it composts at home, it composts in the water, it composts in a landfill, it was just what we needed to do. The factory that bought it, that now we work with is Westfield Tech Deck and Westfield has 18 factories around the United States. So we now are in a position where we can have the capacity of the material and the capacity of the manufacturer. I don't want to say we begged, but it came close to taking that into take us seriously and thank God they looked at it and they said, you know, our customers have been asking for 10 years for something like this. We'll give you the ability to refine this and damn it, we'll pull it off and now we can make a product that people would be proud to put on their shelf, reuse, discard, no matter where they discard it and it'll disappear in a maximum six months. We got to do a better job, I mean, even though sustainability is not a new concept, you are kind of paving the way for it because even that seven plus year experience, how many entrepreneurs would have not made it that far. You know this game, this is seven years of even trying to figure out manufacturing for most people is like, okay, no, never mind. White flag, hands up, I'm done, I'm out. So we have to do a better job. Yeah, no, I'm lucky, I get a family support, my wife refuses to let me go fishing. And our family just is relentless about trying to find a solution to it. So good to have supported home, my wife and I have fortunate enough to be able to afford it. Yeah, well, I think that's the point. But that's a good point too. So the people that can afford to put the energy in the effort and those are the people that really have to lead the way. If not, you're so well on building a company like this, which is very, that's a sad, that's a sad thing. Yeah, no, it's, you've got to, companies, companies now, I would have to say this, I now we have access to large companies that are just saying we have to make this move. The consumers pushing us, they're making a decision, we can't, you know, I don't want to say fight it, we can't half-hearted, I'm trying to pick the right word without having to get censored. We have to, we have to go all the way. And in what solutions we've been putting out there, our 20% there, 50%, 60%, but they're not 100% there, and the materials to go 100% there are available. And I would say that the manufacturing of these materials will hit scale in the next three years, and then you're going to see prices come down and availability be good. That's why Connicka taking us on was so important because they do have the capital resources and capacity to be able to allow us to reach our full potential. And Westfall has the financial resources and capacity to make enough product to fill the demand. We're just fortunate to have them believe in us. I just want to take a second and thank the sponsor of today's episode HubSpot. Now as you all know, the success story podcast is part of the HubSpot podcast network. There are incredible podcasts in this network. One of my favorites that you have to check out. If you don't know this podcast, you're kind of sleeping on it. The Gold Digger podcast hosted by Jenna Kutcher. This podcast has been around for a minute. Jenna is an OG in the podcast game. The Gold Digger podcast helps you discover your dream career with productivity tips, social strategies, business hacks, inspirational stories, interviews, and so much more, please go check out the Gold Digger podcast hosted by Jenna Kutcher wherever you get your podcasts. I'm very curious as you take this to market. I mean, now you're literally on a trip to speak to some buyers now, but as you take this to market, is there anything that you do differently now in 2023 to take a product to market, to take a sustainable product to market? Is it existing retail channels is the best way to go? Is it direct to consumer? There's a whole bunch of different channels we can go after. What's your advice for taking this product to market? Well, you mean my product? Your product. Yeah, I mean, that's why I ask like, it could be advice in general or sustainable specific advice. You take it. However you want to take it. Yeah, we go after stadiums, we go after concerts, we go after theme parks, we go after airlines, we go after cruise lines, we go after that closed environment where they can collect the product and put it in the right spot. I got you. As far as direct to consumer goes, we are working to find the right partner to go to work with. I can't talk about the companies we're talking to, but we're looking at a good beer company, a large beer company that has the ability to put this cup line right alongside of where beer or other beverages are sold. We're looking at a large concert company that has the opportunity to put it at festivals or at concerts or in, and then we're looking at a large multi-media organization that has the ability to put it in stadiums and put it in, you know, any kind of social event in and around an athletic competition. And those for us would be the way to go candidly. I don't think we had the right product. I think we would have done ourselves some harm trying to go out and meet with people on a product that they would find, well, it doesn't do this, because our product now passes the dishwasher test. It passes, um, temperature is up to 220 degrees, it passes temperatures down to 32 degrees. It, you know, it has the ability to not change the taste of a beverage when it goes into it. All of those things we couldn't have pulled off two years ago. So that's an interesting point too. It seems like a couple of lessons out of that. I mean, you have to make sure, even if you have an MVP or that minimum viable product, it's still good enough so that a consumer can use it because if it doesn't pass those tests that you were talking about two years ago, then obviously you put something into the market that may not be picked up well and may not be received well, which obviously that's a missed opportunity. But also it's interesting because I see a lot of consumer products go to market through all these direct to consumer channels, but even in your view towards taking something to market, it's all about, again, going into an ecosystem and there's scalability involved in your direct to consumer or into your take to market approach. It's not like if they're up a Shopify store, you go on Amazon and you start selling widgets and it feels like there's some wisdom around how you look at commercializing a product that I think is lost because I feel like a lot of entrepreneurs try this quick and fast, put it up on Amazon, put it up on Shopify, try and sell it out. That's never been the thing that you were looking at doing. Why is it that you look for these, right? You look for these very big opportunities, you want to go to consumer, you're working with a partner, join venture beer company, whatever that company is. So you look at commercialization very different than a lot of the new up-and-coming entrepreneurs that I speak with. Why would that be? Well, say that again, please. Oh, sorry. No, I just said you look at how you commercialize a product in a much different way than many of the entrepreneurs that I see they're building your consumer products. That's curious why. Yeah, well, the beauty is this is that the technology exists today to go directly to the consumer and communicate with the direct lead to the consumer in so many different ways than the old business model. So don't use the old business model. And that, you know, and don't fall in the trap of, well, Sally did it, so I'm going to do it. And I think that the right thing to do is make sure your product delivers on the promise you're going to make about that product. If that product has the attributes that you're going to claim, make sure it has it before you go to market. And don't rush it out there. Because if you land that one's key product, I'm going to give you a little example. I apologize for pontificating. Go for it. When I first went to Little Lemon, almost 89% of the sales were in the pant and a very heavy sweatshirt that was incredibly popular in Canada. When you go there, you say, gee, you should be selling three tops to every pant. You should be selling two bras to every pant. You should be selling at least one or two jackets to go to and from. You should be able to sell what you do when you leave yoga. You should be able to sell headbands, wristbands, sweatbands, socks. You should be able to sell men's gear. And you build a company off of that key product. But that key product has to work. You can't take that product for granted because nobody's going to buy three tops if the pant stinks or nobody's going to buy two bras if the pant stinks. So you're going to have your key product delivered on its promise. I love that. I think that's the thing. Little off on its engine. No, no, no, it's good. Well, I'll tell you why that's so important that advice is so important because so many people, so many new entrepreneurs, they create 10 products and they create 10 products for 10 different customer types and customer personas and they just push them all into the market and they're like, well, hopefully something sticks. But then it's like half-ass effort, half-ass effort, excuse me, at 10 different skews, right? And that doesn't work. You take any successful company and I'm going to say Ford, I'm going to say Apple, I'm going to say anybody, it's a single product, it's your key product and it's your campfire. And then you push out from the campfire and you don't get so far away that you lose the heat of that campfire and you're going to have, you'll build your business off of keeping that the best product, you know, you take a Coca-Cola, if the campfire that starts around the single product, I don't care what I use, the example is going to be there. The whole idea of your sales force or the buyer saying, give me something I can say no to, is a waste of time, energy and resources. Make that one key product the best you can make it. When you look at better for all, you have your key product that you're taking to market now. But in the sustainability space, where do you see the future of a company like this going? Where do you see other things that better for all could tackle? You know, so I mean, it's easy to take a look at cups and different sizes, different colors, different shapes. It's easy to see the accessories like straws and lids and utensils. But when you take a look in the consumer package goods market and you take a look at detergent dispensives, you take a look at caps for any kind of a bottle. You take a look at the opportunity to have single, you cereal things. Both are, you know, that you buy off the shelf or you take a look at something like a yogurt cup. Those are all opportunities for better for all. So the better for all container line is within the scope of our strategic intent. And when you, one more question just about consumer behavior, you've touched on it a few times. But when you actually build out a sustainability company, talk to me about how that resonates with today's consumer with a younger generation. What does that actually mean for them? Because we touch on, they care about products, they care about packaging, they do care. But how much do they really care? Do you have data points, do you have stats, do you, I mean, you're building a whole company in this space. I'm very curious about what the, what the person, the average person cares about now with where they buy their product, which companies interact with, and to what degree does that sort of influence their buying decisions? I think there's enough data points to give me comfort that if you build it successfully, there's a market there for it. But I would say that if you take somebody with my background in the tendency to market to them, they don't want to be marketed to them. They want to discover. They, the younger customer who is going to influence purchases, 40% of them are going to buy from a company that has values that match theirs, that has a stand on philanthropy or a stand on climate or sustainability. 40% of a home market, you know, 88% of them want to be told the truth. I can't get 88% of the people to agree with day to day is, that's a, that's a big business opportunity. And so, you know, when you take a look at that, and then you say, well, how am I going to influence them? The answer is they don't, they don't want to be influenced. They want to discover. So just use the vehicles available to you to allow them to discover you. Don't be afraid to sample. Don't be afraid to show up at an event where people, you know, the people who run companies have an opportunity to go, oh my God, this, this, I'm drinking a drink out of something that is going to be dust in 45 days when I get rid of it. It's, it's there. Oh, I could use that as a, as a cereal bowl, you know, blah, blah, blah. I apologize for staying over again. The cereal bowl is known here, but the point is, the whole way to market now has changed. The whole way to get in front of the audience, it's, it could pull as opposed to a push. Yeah. Now, if they're going to discover you, they're going to talk about you, they're going to repost you, they're going to, it's going to happen by you just getting out there, but you're not going to tell them what to buy. In fact, this, what did I say? McKenzie said 88% just don't believe company marketing messages. So don't market message. You know, just deliver on your promise and let people, let people discover it. It happens quick, but, you know, but I, I would say this and I say this with confidence because I'm taking a look at the companies that are testing us right this second in terms of bringing us to market in, in a big way, these are big companies. So this is not something that I'm talking into at all. This is, this is a message that has already gone out and been heard loud and clear. And, you know, yeah, we got to go through the testing and it's too early to break out the champagne and caviar, but, but it is not something where you're having to open up a lemonade stand. These are big companies that are taking it very seriously. I want to, I want to pull out some last entrepreneurial business insights from you for people that are trying to build their own thing. But before I pivot into, into those questions, I just wanted to give you a chance. Is there anything that you want to bring up some final thoughts on sustainability or better for all that we didn't go into? Oh, no, I feel like, I feel like, I hope I've stayed on point, I don't want, don't give me a chance. No, no, you're good, you're good. I appreciate it. Just, just, just keep me on point. You're good. No. Okay, so, just a couple, you know, because the range of size of company that you've been an operator in has been from relatively early stage, I mean, even with better for all in some of the past companies, you grew them from point A to multi-billion dollar. As a CEO, operator, how does your mindset have to shift from when you're starting out even pre-revenue to when you're managing a billion dollar company? Oh, it's light years. It's, so, starting a company out, you're a pipe-piper. You're enrolling people in a vision. You're enrolling people in your beliefs, you're encouraging people to take risks and put their integrity and put their reputations on the line to follow you. When you're a billion dollar company, you're serving different masters. You're forcing, you're making sure that your R&D is well-funded, so you have the next generation of product coming. Or you're going to be writing this thing down the other side of the roller coaster. You're making sure that you're always recruiting and retaining the best and the brightest and you're rewarding them. Not just with money, that is, I think, is number 5, 6, 7 in what people value in working for a company, but you're staying true to their beliefs and you're rewarding them as being part of a successful organization. Of course, you're making sure that the people who put their hard-earned money to help you be successful, whether it be a factory that you don't own, but you control their destiny because now you're a big piece of their business is, in fact, in good financial conditioning. Or that anybody that relies on you to be successful has an idea of what you're doing next so that they can do their planning on hiring. And that includes your retail partners as well as your box manufacturer. That's very different because now you're going to a number of people. You've created jobs around your company and those companies are relying on you, you know, not putting them out of business. That's a different kind of motivation. And I'm curious because I think a lot of companies, they have a CEO from 0 to 10 million then maybe they'll have a better or different executive for 10 to 100 then they'll have a different executive post IPO, but you've run the gamut. What's your best advice for being able to operate at all those different stages effectively? People get the best on the brightest and cover their back, make sure you let them use their whole brain. You go through life and what you look back upon with the most pride is the problem you solve that people didn't think you could solve. You've got to be, you've got to make sure that you're giving the signal to the team that you're still committed to win and you're going to put the best players on the field in the right position and you're going to hold people accountable. I think one thing that Louis, I mean, it really, really well, was having people buy into owning their own responsibility responsible for their own actions and setting goals, but not goals that went in the bottom draw that were posted on a bulletin board. And my goals were posted on a bulletin board and it was my personal goals. It was my financial goals. It was my business goals, my personal goals, my financial goals, one year, three years, five years. And they were there for everyone to see and they're good old glory. And I thought that was brilliant. That was really, really cool. In fact, even years after I left Rebekah, I had one of my goals was to mentor young people starting their own business. And I would get this call from somebody in the, you remember me? I'm starting a business. I know you have that goal. Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Now you got to answer the email. Answer the phone. You can't be as you can. Why don't they want me to say you're going to make it real? Yeah. I love that. All right. So I have two questions that I ask everyone at the end. But before I ask those last two questions, I just want to give you the opportunity. Where should you send people? What social, for yourself, for better for all website, anything that you, where you want to send people so they can go find out more about us. The bow you? Yeah. Yeah. Better for all one word.co. Okay. Perfect. And in there, you're going to find, you know, you're going to find how to get in touch with us. You know, Catherine Kelly answer. She's fabulous. She's going to answer within 24 hours. Reagan Kelly is going to answer any questions on product. And then we're going to be able to answer any questions on, can you make this or can you make that? And I think that that's the right place to go. Betterforall.co. Perfect. Okay. One question that I always like to ask somebody because you've had such an incredible career. What would be one lesson that you would tell your 20 year old self? Say it again. Oh, one, one lesson that you would tell your 20 year old self. Stay enthusiastic. It's hard in the past just stay enthusiastic. And then again, incredible career, multiple seasons to your career at this point in your life. What does success mean to you personally? Bring a product to market that's going to help the world. I would have to look back at the amount of plastic I personally have been responsible for putting in the world. And the problem in making a product that is supposed to last forever is that it lasts forever. And if we can land this one and bring this fabulous material and manufacturing to the world, I know we can help. It checks all the boxes. It really works.