Liquidity & Liquor - Claudia Poccia | How to Build a Global Cosmetics Brand

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Now, if any of these topics are interesting to you, you're going to love his show, how to write and deliver captivating speeches, how to market yourself into a new job, how design can help and potentially hurt your revenue, and how to create a social media ad strategy that works. If these topics hit home in their things that you want to learn about, go listen to Marketing Made Simple wherever you get your podcasts. Today, you're going to hear an episode of my new podcast, liquidity and liquor. I co-host liquidity and liquor with Joseph Martin, a serial entrepreneur who sold his last company boxy charm for over $500 million. On liquidity and liquor, we have conversations about business, money, and life with some of the most interesting people in the world. You can download and subscribe to liquidity and liquor on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, Claudia Pocha, welcome to our show. Thank you. Claudia Pocha, we're friends since, we know each other since 2015, right? We met at the Women's World Daily event, and I remember when I met you, I went with this headhunter named Annabelle or Isabella, I think Annabelle. She told me this is Claudia Pocha. She was the CEO of Laura Morse and those are a whole crowd around her. And we spoke, and I remember that you told me you're from Cooper City, or I'm like, I'm from Cooper City. You're like, no way. You went to the FIU. I went to the FIU. So I said, listen, I need some help in the beauty industry. I'm new. I need to get a bunch of big brands in my box. Look, I'll help you out though. I got you. And we started working together. She was consulting for me for a couple of years. I think it's kind of hard to time on it, but you had to wait after your non-compete was expired, right? And then we started working. So Claudia was, she's, you're the, the ideal corporate suit person, successful US corporate American. Are you, you've been to L'Oreal and then you went to Louder, then you went to Sashado throughout the years. Throughout those years, you actually were the CEO of Laura Morse, which is a big makeup brand. You were the president of Avon Beauty Global that was doing about a billion and a half a year in March, which was, you grew it to a hundred million yourself. You were later on the CM of Bear Minerals. You were just a lot of tells and you're really going, you're the, you're making me sound very old. And well, I mean, I mean, I'm giving them all the, all the information. You're the GMC of still after the acquisition to Louder. So it's like, if anyone needs to know anything about beauty through the corporate world, this is you. You understand? You're the typical suit person that after they acquire you, you show up. And so we're taking over from here. That's pretty much what, is that a good representation? Wasn't that the way it was after they acquired still? You show up like welcome to the new show. I'm here. Running things. And they said, and who are you exactly? And who invited you? We just wanted the check. We didn't expect this. We didn't want anyone else. Yeah. No, well, first of all, thanks, thanks for having me. And yes, I have spent 30 plus years in the industry at big companies like Lauder and Avon and, and, and all of those. But the most fun I've had, quite frankly, recently is as working with entrepreneurs like yourself. I think you, you started that or maybe, maybe Janine Lubell on Steela did, but have recently been working with founders and helping them with everything from finding capital for their business to their business plans to, you know, brand proposition, go to market, product development, all of it. And it's been rewarding to take everything you learn, you know, from your experience in these massive global entities. And then to bring it down and just kind of distill what do you really need, right? What, like, what, what's really going to be valuable to you? Yeah. You know, it's a, you have so many things and it's kind of hard to unpack right away. Everything you've been through. You're trying to pick on your, on your, like, your experience and what to peel the, the layers. Sure. The layers. Tell us about you getting your job in Estee Lauder going into that corporate America on a 40th floor or so, 50th floor, looking central park, getting a job of it there, just coming from the FIU, Florida International University, you can tell us that, that story. Sure. Well, first of all, you know, they, there's a saying that you learn more from your mistakes than you do from your successes. So I sit here, I'll work in progress. So you're going to hear a lot of those today because my path has been a little crazy. And I am an accidental beauty executive. I did not plan to do this. I went to FIU because I thought I was going to be an international business and then I had to make money. So I started selling cosmetics that I, yeah, got, you know, your parents finally say it's time. Yeah. And so, so, you know, as you and I were talking about, I had to leave school and start working, which takes us back to Estee Lauder ultimately through executive development, but not through a traditional degree. And I have Estee Lauder Corporation to thank for that, actually Leonard Lauder. So yeah, I had to jump off. But back to your story, my path to Lauder actually came through being on an entrepreneurial business called Georgia O'Beverly Hills. And at the time, there was a brand called Calvin Klein's obsession. And we were in a dog fight. I mean, and the woman who was running Calvin Klein left to go to Estee Lauder. And I happened to run into her at Fort Lauderdale Airport and she just said, are you blissfully happy? I'm happy. I don't know about blissful, but I'm happy. And she said, well, I'm going to Estee Lauder, which for me was like a dream come true. Because I remember working at that cosmetic counter when the water is there. What year was it? Don't do that. No, no, no, no, we need to know the chronological. 1912. Yeah. 1912. And you know, there was a carriage outside. No, for real. I'm trying to give people perspective of timing when it was a private company to a public company. Oh, yeah. No, that was in the early 90s. Early 90s, okay. Early 90s, for sure. I think it was 92 actually. And so anyway, just in the Fort Lauderdale Airport, and I ran into Robin Burns, who had just become the president of Estee Lauder, US. And we had this conversation and she said, you know, I'm putting together my team. I'd love to have you on my team. And she goes, I don't know what position we're, you know, we're making it up as we go right now. Like I'm evaluating what I have. I'm looking to see where my gaps are. And, you know, I would love to have an opportunity for us to chat. So back to flashback to when I was working behind the counter in the 80s. And the Lauder executives would come in. And I was so blown away by their professionalism and they had the best space and location and the best marketing plans and they knew their stuff. And I always thought, wow, one day I would love to work for a stay Lauder. And this little South Florida girl would love to work in those corporate offices. So to have that happen, you know, that conversation happened 10 years later by chance. And the airport was a mind blower. So I said, yes, I don't care what I do. Just put me in a place and, you know, I'm just happy to be here. And so that's when it started. And I actually was put in a holding pattern, which was great because I got to do a lot of things on the marketing side working with the family. I actually managed one of the team that managed Evelyn Lauder's first photography book tour, which was my first design. Let me just go and break it down for the audience. So Estee Lauder is a family owned company. At first, now it's a public company. Yeah, it was Estee Lauder that started Lenerlander, the whole family worked in it. How old is that business? Oh gosh, we'll have to check my dates on Estee. I mean, I left there. I'm just curious. Yeah, let's Google it. I got to Google it. Yeah. Keep going off, I'll figure it out. Yeah, no, actually very much a family business. It was Estee and Joe that started it, Joe. Yeah. And Joe's are very smart, people are going to say they're very smart. They're very smart. They're very smart. Found it in 1946. Yeah. By like an amazing groundbreaking pioneer, Estee. And then Lener joined the business and Ronald also, and of course, their children are in the business as well, William and Jane and Erin. But when I was there, it was very much still a privately held company. And probably one of the best entrepreneurial experiences that you could have. So just because they were really in it, I mean, they knew what it was like to bootstrap and how important it was. And so here was this big company on the outside, where people like me and Holly would Florida at the local cosmetic counter were seeing them come in, there's like, wow, it's Estee Lauder. And then when I actually got there and got behind the velvet curtain, it was a lesson in entrepreneurial ship. At the best, it was a front row seat to see that those things that you do to get your business up and running that, the ethos and the work ethic and the attention to detail and the no ego you do what you got to do to get the job done was very much embedded in that culture at that time. I find that interesting just because a company founded in 1946, well, now you're talking about like 40 years later, right, or almost almost 50 years later, that company would not normally still be entrepreneurial, right, normally would have evolved from that. And then you start to have big company problems. I think it's in today's world because in today's world, soon enough, private equity is going to come, give you a price that you can say no to, they'll move on, they'll strip it down, make it emergent with merging with the next competitor on the industry and back then, I guess, the investment world, everything was different. The perspective of money wasn't the same as it is today, so companies kept on going. That's why today, you don't see too many companies run that have a chance to survive a hundred years back then it was a normal thing, the company just stayed, they survived. Yeah. And what did they do that was so entrepreneurial, like what was that? I would say Leonard had this plaque that he gave us all that I still have today and I keep it on my desk, which basically said think like your customer. And they did, so they were always students of what was happening, students of consumer behavior, students of what was happening in the economy, students of, you know, just the macro environment and really trying to keep their experience real. And we always used to joke before any budget meeting, you were always overspent, right, because you definitely were very conscious of what you invested in and what you expected out of that. And so, you know, there was that mentality of value and creating value. So that's what I mean, you know, where you're really watching every penny. It's this big company. Customer focus is still watching every penny. So you're not ignorant to your customers, like when you get to a certain size, sometimes you see that with companies for sure, and then also you don't just spend to spend, you don't just spend to buy business. You spend to be a profitable good business. Yeah. But I would say that. And I didn't stick around because if you look today, they're the paid 1.4 billion for two for two face, for example, they were doing a think 220 million a year at the time of the acquisition, thinking it's going to be a big brand, multi billion dollar. It didn't really happen. Then eventually they obviously bought still overpaid. So things changed. What do you think change in industry that we need tomorrow? Yeah, I think two things, Joe. First of all, let's start with things change and the speed to market and the market dynamics changed. And the one thing that I do credit, you know, the leadership at the time was we can build it or we can acquire it if we want to be a leader in that space. And at the time that we started doing acquisitions, it was a Veda in the natural space and it was MAC in the makeup space. And at the time, Lauder had prescriptives, which they had built. What does it mean prescriptive? Prescriptives was a makeup artistry brand that then went into skin care, but it was all about color theory, color matching, custom color, personalization of your palettes. They were way ahead of the curve, but there was this emerging consumer demand for makeup and makeup artistry. And they knew that it was taking a long time to build it with prescriptives and Leonard or Fred, Fred Landhammer, Leonard Lauder, one of those guys, I don't know, it wasn't in the room at the time, but there was something fascinating happening with MAC. And they were just tapping into the zeitgeist of the culture at the time. And they were just really creating this cult phenomenon in makeup. And that was really a major acquisition because Leonard wanted to make sure that they were leaders. They were already leaders in skin care with Estee Lauder and Clinique and with the Veda acquisition moving into the natural space. But in makeup, MAC was winning and winning big and and Leonard understood market segmentation. There was a consumer for that and then came Bobby Brown, which if you think about it, you had MAC at this end of the spectrum, right, all races all the other side and Bobby at the other. So you were really capturing both ends of the market. Let me just expand the milk consumer on how it looks. One is very colorful, which is MAC and all the cool she grows want to wear. And then the other one is everyday look, natural, natural, completely different kind of mindset for someone that doesn't want to go and pop their look with artistry that just want to do something very no makeup makeup type. Exactly. And so again, it goes back to understanding the market, understanding that the makeup market is growing. And within that, there's market segmentation and one brand doesn't do it all because who wants to wear their mother's makeup, ST, right? The ST water brand had an older audience. And so there's this young and up and coming generation that's looking for different things. That's what led to the acquisitions. And then Stila was the third makeup brand. So now they really owned all of the segments within ST water. Stila was really that LA red carpet. This is your best moment. You know, you know, that was later years later. No, actually, the Stila acquisition was in 1999. And when was Mac? Mac was, I would say mid 90s. OK, so a couple years later, Stila become popular. Is it because Stila was the coolest one in Sephora? And Sephora wasn't a thing for them to play with. They were mostly sitting in blooming delts and maces. That was the hub to go. And I'm like, Sephora didn't get all the cool brands at the time. And suddenly they made one of their own brand really cool. And they wanted to enter. Yeah, well, first of all, Stila was cool. And I credit Janine Mabel, the makeup artist, behind it. She was a visionary. I mean, you think about everyone talking about sustainability today and your footprint. Our packaging was cardboard, right? You think that way ahead of its time. Way ahead of its time. I mean, she really is a visionary. I credit her with teaching me so much about product and really tapping into the zeitgeist of what's happening. She also, every single one of her products, when you opened the lid of an eyeshadow, there was a quote from a famous woman. Some just may do that. Some were inspiring. But again, you talk about it. It wasn't a thing at the time. No. It was a black lipstick, a black bullet lipstick by Mark, that's what owned the world. It was running the world. And it all looked the same, just a different sticker for the color, and that's it, right? Now they're coming up with something a little bit more refreshing, different colors. Doesn't have to be all black and white, like, you know, what you would see. So that literally in the marketing, the branding is all new at the time, yeah. All ahead of its curve. All three of them, quite frankly. Bobby, with her six, you know, ranges of neutrals, Mac, with its artistries, all about the makeup artist. It was about transformation, RuPaul. Was there spokesperson and rights? So you had that whole edgy counter-cool. You had this more natural look. And then you had, you know, this L.A. brand that was really tapping into all the things we're talking about today, you know, women-empowering women. Sustainability. This was, gosh, the acquisition of Steelo was 1999. So it was still very early on. Yeah. Like, sustainability and, you know, and basically equity and making women, you know, and highlighting women's achievements and trying to... Everything you see now started years ago, right? I mean, it wasn't... I don't think it was as much of a thing in 1999. I think that probably evolved over the 2000s. I think it was happening. I think what you're seeing right now, and I do want to go back to something about this whole piece of lottery strategy to acquire these young up-and-coming brands. Because I think it's important in the bigger conversation about businesses and entrepreneurs and why you're building value. But you're seeing the same thing in beauty right now today. There is a new generation that is up-and-coming right now who is embracing some of the things we're talking about. There's this whole new era of self-expression and there's going to be a new Mac. And I think I might be working with a young woman who can bring that to the forefront very quickly. There's this whole thing happening about sustainability and natural and holistic beauty from the inside out. And you think about what Aveda was doing at the time and what the story I just told you. So there's a fundamental shift because just like we didn't in the early 90s want to wear our mother's brand, these... This generation of beauty consumers also, right? Right. And they're defining what their, you know, what self-expression means to them or what, you know, a wellness means to them and how they're going to approach that. And what beauty means to them too? Yes. Exactly. But it's into that. Let's go back though. Let's go back to what you started with market segmentation. Yes. So they acquired Stila. And at the time you explained to me that Stila was... Number one in Sephora. And Sephora in Sephora, they wanted to enter Sephora. Yes. And they didn't want to enter Sephora or flagship brand without knowing the story was important for them to acquire Stila. Yeah. Understand the dynamic in the story. Wow. I'm so impressed. You remembered that I told you this at the time. Well, it was 2015. It wasn't too long ago. I mean, 2022. Yeah, but I can't remember what I did yesterday. Well, I mean, okay. So I'll say this, right? So Sephora was having a challenge. The reason I remember that, it's because they went through the same challenge I went to. They wanted the big brands. The big brands didn't go in. They had to go and create their brands as cool. Yeah. So then the big brands would die to go and be with the cool brands. And that's how it turned right. Because at first they had the big brands, but then the federated stores, which is Macy's Blooming Densburg Diamonds at the time. They company. If you stay... If you're in Sephora, you can be with us. So eventually they pulled all the big brands out of Sephora. And then for the 90s, Sephora built itself with their own brands. Stila was a thing. Now, a lot of the ones to go back inside, they said, well, let us acquire Stila, right? And I'm just memory from 2015, what you told me. Now, let's go by inside. And then it told you it's product diversification. We have to go and learn that space, but we have to also make sure we understand the store. And that that was one of the main strategic reasons to acquire Stila. Yep. There was the market segmentation in the category, but there was a channel segmentation strategy as well. So yes. And in terms of the channel, things were becoming more open cell. The counters were going away. It was a moment in time where Sephora was also struggling to establish itself here in the US. And so Stila was the number one makeup brand at Sephora at the time. And that was very much, you know what? You buy the number one brand in this new channel that we need to learn in order to be successful in. And then we export those learnings to the rest of our company so that we understand also what's changing in the consumer experience. How does she want to experience products? Does it want to maybe go up to a counter and have somebody there? She wants her own time to explore and enjoy it. And so yes, it was a great opportunity to really learn about what was happening in terms of how consumers wanted to engage with beauty in a new way for new generation. And Stila was that entree point. So they're sitting down and I'm trying to think how like as a founder that says, look, whatever I did back then, it gets to be a little bit off-tuned into the market. Now the market changes. And I need to buy the winners in the new categories that are coming in. The beauty category, but then you have sub categories. If you said, OK, make up, you can't have two winners or three winners. They're all different. I'll buy all three of them right. Because they did acquire eventually all three, right? Yeah, all three while I was there. So I'm thinking when they've done this at the time as they kept going on and the industry is getting more and more fragmented, which means anyone can open a beauty brand right now. It's very hard to identify a winner. Back then the winner would go to billions of dollars in sales as MAC did and as even even what's the name Bobby brown, right? Mac more, right, global. But today doesn't happen. No brand gets to be billions of dollars anymore for some reason, but it's segmentation, right? It's another. It's just fragmentation of the market where everyone can do what you do. Everyone can get on social media. Everyone can go to a manufacturer. Everyone can go and push if you have something within months. I'm going to have the same product. You come up with a holographic highlighter, say no more. Let's go and it's really about about how fast can I just make it? So I'll go to a local place. I'll buy components at a local. I'll come up really, really quick with a highlighter and guess what? I'll get I have relationship with couple big influencers and off we go and let's just start selling. It's just after while it's an impossibility for them to just buy everybody or even identify who's going to make it. Well, I think it actually Joe, what you're saying, you're speaking to a brander, right? So understand that for me, you know, I believe you can sell anybody anything once. But if you want to build a sustainable business, you better make sure that your product lives up to your promise. Okay. Consistently. I'm going to tackle you in this one though. Yeah, good. So here it is. So if you say that, okay. Anyone can sell a t-shirt for 12 bucks, but in order to charge 80, you have to brand yourself. Fair sell second t-shirt. Or second t-shirt, yes. Or second t-shirt or, but you have to brand yourself. You can charge more, you can consistently sell more. However, when you ask yourself to what size you can grow those days because you say, well, back then, if you say I buy this brand, they have their branding. Maybe I can fine tune their branding because I understand. I have my team. I have Claudia. We can get the branding. We'll put you in this store. You have your 50 doors or 100 doors or 1000 doors. Yeah, I can put you in 10,000 doors globally. So right now you do 50, but I can put it in my chart. You'll be a billion at that point or 500 million at that point. And I can control maybe that I know all the, all the politic. Today, it's no longer. That's true. So the problem for a company like louder that goes and pay EBITDA multiples in the sky or many others like them said, well, where do I buy the brand? What, when is the point now that I stick it? Is it 5 million? Is it 50 million? When do I know that if I buy them at a point in a cell, pay 10 times EBITDA, I will still recuperate my money and I'll stay relevant because they're relevant. But what is that right price point? Do I buy them when they're that small? That is the challenge that you're going to have because. That's true. And I think the brand is is is not is the branding part. Unfortunately is now up to the masses. You go to so many companies that the funders just very articulate they can understand branding. Maybe not everybody, but there'll be 10% but if a 10% of the people that can get this, it's just 100 people out of 1000. Let's separate. Let's unpack branding from product. Okay. Because I said product. Okay. And your product is reflective of of what you want. I'm taking my product to oxygen development. He's going to make the same product next week. So let's talk about boxy. Okay. Okay. Let's talk about yours. Because by the way, amazing success story, right? Okay. And you wanted to break the norms of the industry in terms of creating an experience, right? Yeah. That was I got to have it and that was different in the marketplace. Okay. You just a few minutes ago, tell me how you continually evolved your product mixed, who you brought in, who you worked with and influencers so that you could be relevant, but that your box was always better than your competitors. Yes. Okay. That's what I'm talking. So I'll I'll explain to you the two differences between a beauty box and the makeup brand. But okay. So first of all, you're 100% correct. Just let me answer that question. I'm sorry. Here's the different. When you have a beauty brand, everything you do, whatever you do, I'll take it to more to a lab and I can do it. I can modify it. I can be the thing is, if you come up right now and I'll take the holographic highlighter as an example, right? If you just came up with a holographic highlighter and it turns out to be a thing. There is a supply and demand issue in the market right now. It's a thing. All the influencers are going crazy. Either it was either on a stacia coming up with this or the data to artists, I forget her name that came up with this and there are two brands that came up with a holographic highlighter. Everyone wanted to go holographic highlight. There's about a gap of about eight months until you can come up with a product into market, right? You go to manufacturer, lab, you decide on the formulation. Now they go for production within those eight months. There is that much of demand, but only two brands can sell it. If I come up soon enough, I'll make more money, but eventually everyone will come up with the same product and that trend will die. It's not what it used to be before when you had a few big companies that compete with each other and it takes them a while to manufacture something. So in today's world, you go in a product perspective. I've noticed this because I've worked with so many brands and thousands of products. Everything eventually gets duplicated. So in the box world, and this is where it gets challenged, you have a whole different scale scalability challenge. First, to get to about 20,000 subscribers. Because once you get to 20,000 subscribers, you have to manufacture all your products about eight months to a year out. That kills 90% of your competition, 95% of them. Because now you have to have enough capital to go and buy boxes and anticipate where you're going to be, which you know you're going to miss up or down a year out. And you have to put deposits because manufacturers don't know you. Now that takes out all the ones with no money. That is something a brand doesn't have. So now I'm only competing with the ones that were able to go after the first hump. Then it's all about execution from there. And we're just doing better. But in your case, I can come up with a small brand and I can come up with a thousand or ten thousand units to go and launch very quickly. It's very duplicable compared to what we had. It wasn't duplicable. If you really want to scale 20,000, anyone can do it. Get to a million different story. That's why you can see hundreds of boxes but only two, three that made it all the way through. That's that's a different between the two. My reason behind telling you this. It's because I feel that the beauty industry have been transformed because of social media and the accessibility. When you go right now to Cosmo Pro, you have how many manufacturers. Yes, you can't even count, right? So I feel like that is where it hates a problem for the major brands. Where they say, well, you can't just buy the winners because the winners might get irrelevant. And then in a year from now, there's another one, what are you going to do, pay them another billion dollar? Every year there's going to be a new one that's going to be the new brand. I think you have to look at what your overarching corporate strategy is. I don't think it's the same playbook and you hit the same button all the time. I mean, there was a lot in what you just said. And I think, you know, when you take a look at what's happening in the marketplace, a big piece of it is how the consumer is engaging with the category, which is very different than it used to be. So you have what we're talking about from the product, right? And the scalability of something and your point of differentiation. Absolutely, because everybody's doing it. And so you, again, to I say to people, you know, if you have a proprietary idea or if you're pushing your formulator by your formula, and make sure you have the manufacturing process as well. So you can take it anywhere you want because it's yours. Yeah. You know, like an oliplex, if you will, right? Or just a hair product. Can you explain about oliplex? Yeah, it's a hair product. But then the other thing is you go to market strategy. So now I'm going to go back to a conversation. I'm going to bring this back to you because you're one of the best marketers. I've ever had the pleasure of working with. And I'm not just saying it because it's here. I'm saying it because I learned a lot because the industry was changing. And you are on the leading edge of that. So you once said to me, I'm not a sample box program. I'm a marketing company. I understand what's happening in the culture. I understand who those influencers are. I understand how to hit that emotional cord and get them engaged in this product. Yes. So it's not an either or. I think the industry right now is grappling with, okay, what does that look like for this particular brand? Because their audience is not the same as this audience over here. So that's why brands have looked at portfolio diversification. That's why big brands have struggled to appeal to everybody. Whether it was a stay-later or a clinic that had to reboot their marketing and their messaging to bring in that audience. But when you look at the top brands at the end of the year, guess who's on the top? Lori Al, a stay-later, like those big guys, they're the biggest volume ones still. So there's something to be said for, I know a lot of the stuff is acquisitive and there are a lot of little brands that break through. But brand building and beauty is about continuity and delivering in that brand promise. The how you do it can change, but your quality, your integrity, your authenticity, your commitment to what you stand for and how you bring that to market is what great brands like we were talking about, Mercedes and Rolex and Porsche and there's a reason and people pay a premium for that because they know what it stands for. Can I actually, I want to just, I had a thought about the question you asked because it's still trying to figure out one point and I thought it was an interesting question because you had asked at what size should you buy a company if you're trying to do an acquisition. And I think that the answer to that lies in the ability to replicate the success of all the other acquisitions you do. So how do you guarantee, and we're alluding to this downstairs, how do you guarantee an acquisition is going to be a success? Because you can solve for that if there's a playbook to purchase, on board and scale a company. Then technically, you actually don't even have to purchase a company that already has a significant track record. You could take an up and coming company at a lower price point with a lower, maybe multiple because they don't have as much venture capital in or private equity money in or maybe the founders, so let's experience. So they're not going to be demanding this huge multiple on their EBITDA and you could buy them and then you could still be successful with that. But what you're talking about when they purchase those three brands, all three of those are successful. There was probably some winners, some losers, and other acquisitions they did. But ultimately, I guess the question would be when you see a company that repeatedly acquires successfully organizations, what are the things that allow that acquisition to be successful, so that they don't have a whole bunch of failures? And it's not just luck. There has to be a strategy to acquiring scaling. Because if we look at other examples, not to name any names, I mean, I've been through acquisition events before, same with Yosef and we've seen acquisition events where the company that gets acquired is no longer successful. I think it's right to think, I think for Scott's point, definitely they did a lot of things right, at least early stage when the main people will land. I'm trying to get a business lesson. How did they do it right? How did they do it right, at least in the beginning? Okay, so first of all, I don't think, I think that if there was one set playbook, everybody would be doing it right now. I think every major corporation has a strategic roadmap that's different, and that's unique to them. So let's just start with that and where they are in their growth. But I would say first and foremost, as you take a look at any business, does it fit your long range plan? And when do you do it? You do it when you have the momentum but also when you see a runway for it, right? So when you see what's happening in the marketplace, they may be developed here, but geographically, there's room to expand the brand because there's consumer demand for it. And there's a resonance in the product. We'll do that. You know how, we know what your mind's more to just said, it's actually funny. If you watch Narcos, when you said, okay, I know that it sells good over here. Oh, I know it's going to sell great in Italy and everything else. I'm thinking about Narcos where you see the first or second episode in Narcos, one Narcos Colombia. And this guy comes from Chile. He teaches public football about cocaine. And he tells them it sells for a couple dollars. You can sell it over here for a couple dollars like my friend, you have no vision. I'm going to sell this in Miami. So that is probably what they had or like, oh, we are selling global already. We know the market globally. That's going to work in all those countries. That's probably what they saw. Yeah. Yes. And I think that that's important. You know, and I think the other thing that the smart companies know is not just you lift it and plunk it in. You have to understand in that culture, how do you communicate your message, right? So that it is accepted culturally because you know, some brands love, you know, you know, some countries love American brands. I mean, right? And they want to bring them in or French brands, right? I mean, if you come from France and you're in beauty, it must mean you're amazing. Not all of them, but, you know, so, but then how do you communicate that? So that you also are culturally relevant. Both first of all, culturally relevant. Outside of your company on a global scale, like in true different demos, but also how do you bring the culture of that organization into your own company and not butcher it? That's also something like how do you not stifle innovation? How do you not kill the passion that the original founder had? So I have to tell you, and it's not a lottery story at all. It's an A-vong story. They haven't gone to A-vong yet. I know, but it's important because, because that was a place where it was very hard not to let the mothership eat its young and having responsibility for the US business. And responsibility for this little, you know, brand that was really not meant to do anything other than figure out how to reinvent direct selling for younger demographic, who was going to be buying and selling products off of her phone. And so that really was how do you break the paradigm of direct selling, right? The door to door became screen to screen. Now it's third screen to third screen and you've got a, at the time, and I can't tell you where they are today, but at the time, a $10 billion company globally that was dealing with the channel that was becoming, you know, more and more difficult, you know, and that funnel of bringing new people in and how do they make money and how do you keep that vibrant and alive. It was stuck in very old marketing plays, you know, metrics, all of that, hitting that discount level, you know, lever all the time. So my point is when I came on, I was asked to at Avon, when I was recruited from Estee Lauder to go to Avon and I was not looking to leave. Have you ever looked for a job or had people just cherry, I guess you're good. Thank you, that's kind. I've been really fortunate. I have been really fortunate in my career. One thing you learn when you try to, when you use a head hunter, the good ones they don't look for a job. Yeah, they're not looking for a job. You have to, you have to convince them. You have to explain to them why they should leave where they are and move over there. Yeah, and so I certainly never, I never expected to leave the Estee Lauder company, but this was this challenge to reinvent a tire direct selling model for a new generation of entrepreneurs, because Avon is entrepreneurship. And if you really want to know, if your business, if your dog can hunt, make your representative as your customer, and your retailer, and your product developer, right? Yeah. And so it's so interesting if you fast forward where Glossier made their community part of it. Well, that's what, that's the fundamental of direct selling, right? It's interesting to see. So, where we were going with that is, how do you keep that culture alive? And I will tell you that it was extremely hard to, because we were breaking all the rules, all the rules, all the business rules, all the business model rules, all the product rules, everything, the earnings structure. And so we tried to ring fence it so that it could breathe. But little by little, and the objective was learn and export your learnings into the mothership. Yeah. Okay. How serious were they about actually fencing it off? Was it like physical office away from the main site? Yeah. Well, that's the funny part, because this is where you say, what happens to the culture? Yeah. So it started off when I got there, we had our own floor, totally look different from the rest, right? And that was for Mark? This was for Avon Mark. Yes, for Mark. And it was Mark and great products, no discounting, none of the traditional direct selling levers. And I spent during my non-compete, my whole summer on college campuses watching what young women were doing, whom my audience was going to be. And like you do, I would sit down with them and just say, hey, I'm looking to start a cosmetic brand and how many hours a week do you work? Can you really work? And what do you expect to earn? And what are the softer benefits, the discounts that this and that? And these interviews formed our business model. So we started off our own space, our own team, things are going. And now the mothership is like, well, we want to put that in the Avon catalog. And it's like respectfully, no, because that's not that consumer. She's telling you she's not coming into your channel and she's not buying your product because she wants something different. So we scaled to 100 million in about four years, which is great with our own set of representatives. And we did migrate digital magazines or catalogs to Avon. But little by little, then they, Mark had one page in the Avon catalog. Then it had two pages and then there was a bundle on it. And, you know, and so they, I used to say they ate their young, right? That's when you're overintegrate and yeah, you have a different agenda and you just kill what you had over there. Yeah. So, you know, I wanted to take you a little bit. This episode is brought to you by Ali, time to get real about the new year. Pressure-filled resolutions are out and evolutions are in. Sure, lofty wellness goals are great, but little steps count too. Think bite-sized health goals for big wins. So get better sleep for our blissful melatonin wins or get up beat with hello happy. Get in the mood with love and libido or get moving with daily energy. Be your very best to you or just be. Ali is here to help you do wellness goals your way. Zero pressure, just delightful gummies, soft jails and fastest alps. Ali, supplements for your new year's evolution. Learn more at Ali.com. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease. Did you know at Kroger, shopping online with pickup and delivery is the same as shopping in store, same low prices, same personalized deals, same rewards with no hidden fees or markups on your same family favorites like honey crisp apples and pasta sauce. The only difference is you don't have to put on shoes. Start your cart today at Kroger.com. Kroger, fresh for everyone. Restrictions apply, see site for details. Forward in time. Okay, let's go chronologically and we might jump back and forth. There's no time. Your time in Sushedo. Yes. All right, you remember one day you called Sushedo for those who don't know. Okay, for the melaton tumor. It's so refreshing to talk to someone who isn't so immersed in the business because I my girlfriend will kick in my ass right now for Sushedo. Sushedo is a global. It's a Japanese. It's a Japanese skinker brand that became a phenomenon. It became a very big. I think they're worth right now, roughly about 60 billion or I didn't check last time the market. It's a huge market cup. It's huge market, don't lots of brands. Part of the brands they owned was later on. They owned Laura Marcia. They own the bear minerals. I think they acquired bear minerals for 1.5 or 1.4 billion at the time. Bear mineral was doing 700 million in sales because they're killing it on QCC. I mean, I don't want to break it down right now. But overall, so you finish your job as the CEO of Laura Marcia. You had that refreshing time. Laura Marcia. Laura Marcia. Reveed. Reveed. Yes. I mean, the majority was, it was 250 million in sales that you took it to from 100 million to 250 million. That's what I mean. Reveed was about 10 million in sales. No, well, no, but close enough. Close enough. Close enough. I'm just talking about big one. But you're running all three of them, yes. So you're hiding between some time. You consulted, you consulted for me. I'm going to be talking later on about something that you said that was super impactful for a growth that you helped me with. And but then you got this job. And I remember I was with you when you told me, I'm, I'm, I'm getting you a call with Mark. He was the CEO of so shadow, you say America. America's America. And that's all now. Is that all of North America markets for the America? Because that's global. It's in Japan based, but somebody had to run this. Like how big is Mark's purview? Like it's significant. Oh, yeah. All of the America. It's all the America. It was a big deal. And we thought you're going to run again, Laura Marcia, because they just acquired Laura Marcia. And it was kind of like natural that you ran them before. You got them from 100 to 250. Can you please run it? But then no, you get an offer to run 100 wasn't to 15? No, it was not. Okay. Well, you say I don't remember at all. That's that's why you're here. Yeah, I just don't want anybody to come in. What were the actual numbers that are public? I are they know are they know public? I think you just need to take my word. It was not 250 million. Nor was it 200. Okay. But near there. That's cool. Let's go. All right. But it was a serious brand. It was a serious brand. They acquired the brand. And then you ended up getting the job as the CMO of bare minerals, which was a much larger brand. And there was no CEO at the time. The idea was that you can you can start off and we'll see what happened. Maybe later on. Tell us about that experience. Okay. Lot to unpack there. But first of all, a big honestly for me, it was a disappointment because we had just slogged through so many operational issues. For the portfolio businesses that we divested and Laura Mercian, I was so excited to have that all behind us and to be able to embark on another growth trajectory, you know, to continue that together. So. So Laura Mercier is the founder of you. Laura Mercier is a makeup artist. And but she was not the CEO. I actually learned that this morning when I Googled. Yes. That's Googling all these makeup. Yeah. She is. You know, I can't even be objective. She's become a almost like family. You know, I mean, truly family as and friend, but business partner. And there was a magic there that, you know, it comes from knowing the strength of your founder and knowing what your supporting role is. And playing off of one another strength for the benefit of the business. And I think that's an important lesson for any founder. It's why we were a great team as well. And I told Joe when I came in, they're probably the biggest mistake I ever made was saying yes to bear minerals and no to move to partnering Joe on boxy charm in retrospect. Yeah, I was I was asking to come and work with us. And I mean, she got a big offer. We were a small company at the time. It was it was just a second year in business. And we're struggling at the time nobody knew us. And I told her, look, we're going to be big. But and she didn't have that. But you obviously, it was the right decision at the moment. At the moment. And I think that's the right decision. And I think that's the right decision. And I think that's the right decision. But if you look back in time, you know, everything's always. You grow up, you learn a lot, right? So here's a lesson for all young. And not so young entrepreneurs and leaders in any business is, you know, sometimes you have to trust your gut and your instinct. You know, and just say, I'm going for it. And I didn't have the courage of my conviction at the time for. Because of other obligations that I had to to family and things like that. But, you know, I wouldn't try to minute of my bear experience either because you learn so much on challenging businesses. So to Joe's point, she said, oh, had had the business. The market dynamics changed again, right? And so here was this darling of QVC, the founder has now who was the face of the brand and the energy of the brand. And I got the benefit of spending a little time with her, but she went on to do something else. The brand over expanded its owned and operated stores into malls when people were migrating out of malls. Right? They opened additional distribution. And so now you have a brand who was the original clean beauty brand down in revenue, double digits, when the whole market is growing in clean beauty. And so you had to unpack all of these pieces about the brand and what do you need to do to revive the brand, the channel, how do you return it to profitability, how do you rationalize the distribution, how do you look at the geographic opportunities right now as clean beauty is growing. And one of the things that Joe and I had talked about was there was so much to do, you needed to be able to be a firefighter. And I found myself on an airplane every five weeks, flying to Tokyo to present our strategy. And you know, they're very process oriented and you know, very much those consensus building. And that was a big lesson for me as an executive. I was trying to talk to, I was trying to talk to your member that time and every time you couldn't because there was another presentation you have to prepare for weeks in advance instead of doing the job for people in Japan. And it was kind of mind blowing to me. It's just so not important to present to just let me fix, move aside, just shut the fuck up bitches. I'm going to take care of it. But move aside, let me do my work. I'll come back when I'll come back, but right now you can disturb. It's impossible to get a hold of you at that time because you just had to go and work and present. And it was take you, you and the whole team, the whole team, everybody just no work, just work to present. It's like, and I give you the analogy said, you know, when you, when you deal with what's not important and definitely not urgent, it's as if the Titanic is sinking and your entire job. Let me clean the bathroom before it seems like it's just not the important. You don't do the regular stuff at that time. This is where you all like to buckle up and let someone else modify these big company big company problems that I was talking about, but it seems like that's that's taking to the end degree, right? Yeah, well, it goes back to culture, right? Yeah. We as a US culture, I think, are inclined to lean in, move quicker, you know, take some bigger risks, think about that country of origin. And, you know, it is a very methodical process oriented type of, you know, traditional culture, nothing wrong with that. But how does that, how do you apply that to a fast moving market? That's the issue. And I would say that it tested all of our ability, which is why I was working all the time, because you would, you know, be preparing for these presentations and then doing your real job at night, you know, when you might want to be home and have dinner with your family from time to time. But it was, it was for me, culturally, a challenging time, because there was so much that needed to be done. There was prioritizing it. There was, it was one of my colleagues once said it was like fixing a flat tire when you're, you know, racing the Daytona, right? So, you know, I think in those times, you know, you have to look at what are the urgent things and what do you need to be able to provide the air cover for your team as a leader so that they can fix it and get some traction while you're managing, you know, while you're managing the process, right? I want to, I want to just say one thing that kind of like struck me was when asked you about the structure, you spoke to me about the metrics system where you manage one thing and another lady manage another thing. Yeah, she doesn't, you create the concept and she needs to execute. However, she doesn't report to you and you don't report to her. And it seemed like an axiomoran because no one is accountable. So you said, okay, do x, y, z, she said, I don't want to do it. And then this was at that time. Yeah, but that's where, because you were CMO there. Yeah, I was CMO and head of international. And who's the person you're referring to? I forgot her name. I don't know what that title is. She was the, the GM president slash GM, the US, no one's like, we reported into the CEO of the Americas. Oh, it was a shadow. So there was no brand president at the time that was a runway there. And that's where somebody has to make the tough call. That's where the senior leader has to step up. Yeah. And support the people who's put into place or she's put into place at that time. So obviously, you know, opportunities there. How much knife stabbing their, their ease out there in this world, in this corporate beauty world between people. Stabbing with knives, political, like, like back stabbing goes on. So, you know, I like to operate in a, you know, bring your best. Do your best. It's a long game, right? There's plenty of room for everybody to be successful. But is it true to say that it was a competition and people step on each other in that particular case where one of you needs to be the CEO. It's either you or her, both of you are fighting for the position. However, no one reports to each other and then it's all knives out. So, you know, here's where, here's where you have to look at things with a sense of humor. Neither one of us got the job. And he hired someone with absolutely no experience in the industry. And then both of us spent all our time teaching our boss while all this was going on and flying back and forth. So, yeah, I would say that there are plenty of learning opportunities there. You know, look, in general, it was, it was meant to be a meritocracy. It didn't necessarily play out that way. But you learn from that too. And I think you learn a lot about human nature and how people comport themselves during times of extreme pressure in the business and in the deliverables. So, you know, I don't get involved in all that stuff. Because I really believe your reputation is all you have. And you have to operate by your moral code and your principles. And I've always done that. So, you know, my favorite expression is I like to take the high road because there's less traffic up there. But if you speak right now to our listeners and some of them want to have that corporate America going around the city with the suit and having this great office. Beautiful view. Well, I mean, some people want to have that beautiful view in the back of the window. It doesn't stink. It doesn't stink, right? And it's cool. I mean, I've seen the way they operate and I would tell you that it doesn't look bad. I mean, they work more hours than anyone can imagine. They're hardworking people. They don't work more than entrepreneurs. I'm not saying it's more than entrepreneurs. I'm just saying that they do work hard. You can tell you from experience you work very hard. It's a lot of work to do. But then the idea is that why would be the advice you give people that want to get into the corporate world in terms of, look, this is how you protect yourself because every corporation has a political, it's a political organization. How would you, how would you, so if it's too political, that's when you leave. It shouldn't be a good environment to work or it can actually be sustained working this. How would you, how would you, what would you give people that want to enter this world? So I would start by saying I absolutely loved my run in corporate America, loved it. I learned so much about complex operating models and matrices. I learned how to lead through influence versus hierarchy. I learned, you know, understanding value creation for shareholders. And so, you know, there's a lot of good things there. I would also say my EQ was really refined working in corporate. So, you know, when you're in a smaller environment, sometimes you can, you know, you can let loose a little bit differently. When you're in a boardroom and you're presenting and you have conflicting point of views, you know, I think there's a skill set of how to bring your point of view without being insulting or cutting other people off or things like that. So, I would say that there is a lot of learning that I value and that I bring with me and I try to carry that forward and teach people. Are there going to be, is it competitive? Yes, it's competitive. You know, there's X amount of seats at the top, no matter what business you're at. Right? So, my counsel to anyone is, you know, focus on, I'm being the best you that you can be. Be a constant student of your category, your competitors. My God, people who are like, I don't look at my competitors. It's like, really, I do. You know, if you, if you read one of my favorite books that one of my mentors gave me when I first became a CEO, Michael Gould, he was a CEO of Bloomingdale's at the time, and it's called Mandela's Way. And it's the leadership lessons from his life, from Nelson Mandela's life. And I've, I've used that as an operating principle. It's like he says, know your enemy. Mine is, you know, know your competition, right? And, and be measured. And it's a long game. It's a long game. And so, you know, knowing, I think in a corporate world, you know, when you need to be in front of it and lead from the front, you know, when you need to lead from behind where you're not there. And you have to move your team forward. So, you know, for me, it's like, know who you are. Don't forget, say, probably the most important thing I can say is you learn more from your mistakes. So don't let them undermine your confidence because we're all going to mess things up. God knows I have. You know, you've watched them firsthand. And you helped me with a reason. I want to say how you helped me though. I am the, well, I will talk about visiting your, you're at the time at the office. But when, when I was running boxing charm, it was about 2020, to employees at the time. And I was kind of like a chicken with his head cut off. I had to look at every activation people wanted to do. And I would say, yes, no, yes, no, and I couldn't really scale. It was just hard for me. And I need the people to understand their own, well, I kind of like what to do and how to do it. And you told me, well, this is what it looks like in a corporation. There's a goal. And then you have the few pillars. And this is your executive summary. When someone comes in within two or three pages, they understand what you're all about. Then you break it down from there. So I have to think about my goal. I know what I'm doing. I have to kind of understand intuitively. What are my intentions when I do all those actions. And eventually I wrote down, I want to grow. My goal is to grow. And then I wrote down the three, the four pillars that it took me a minute to even think about them because I have to think what if is that a strategy is that a tactic and what's the difference between the two. And finally, it all came together for me where I said, okay, here are my four pillars. Get the best product in a box. Keep the best customer experience. Get the best bronze experience. Give them best in class marketing campaign for free and get the best influencers experience. And that changed the entire company because it was so easy was here's the goal and here are the four ways to reach that goal. And if there is no executive in the room, you already know how to make the decision. And I would give a negative example when it doesn't work. And I would say, well, if we want to go and say, let's feed the homeless every Tuesday. Is that going to help us get a better product in a box? No. Would that get a better experience for the members? Absolutely not customer service doesn't work. Is that going to give any better brand experience? No influencers experience. No, then he doesn't help me grow. So I don't do that. I only do what helps me grow. And that's the way to know laser focus goal oriented. All the vectors goes into one direction. You pierced through anything. And that wouldn't come unless it was you and the company that was in 2015. That's when the company transformed. And you would see later on in the company people sitting down and you would see managers talking to their peers. And they would say, well, okay, that's a good idea. Let's see what pillars do you hit? They would say one and three. So anything you throw in a wall sticks. Anything you throw in a wall sticks. And it takes me back to what you said, when louder, when when Leonard louder told you, think like your consumer. Right. Think like your it's such an entrepreneurial phrase. Think like your consumer. Right. Where is my consumer? Oh, he's in tick tech now. Let me go to tick tech. What what is he doing? Oh, he's no longer doing crazy makeup look. He's going. This is how you think like your kids. This is what Gen Z is doing. Okay, I need to get who's the winner in the Gen Z category. Okay, let's go and see if we can acquire them. That's that's such a such a smart entrepreneur. Well, now if you had to go and kind of take it all back and you ask yourself all those years experience. What was the most impactful place for you to work? All those companies you work for what was that that place that really transform you to who you are today? Oh God, that is such a tough question because there were so many different life changing moments for where I was at that moment in time. I mean, I gave you many examples from Estee Lauder and I would say that whole run was transformative but but more importantly laid the fundamentals of how I operate. I you know, but I would also say that my time at Avon and two extraordinary women at the top Liz Smith who was my boss and Andrea Jung the CEO. The lessons learned. I mean, I remember meeting Liz. She came from craft and I came from Estee Lauder. So this was an important now you talk about this. Not for me that we'd craft. Yeah, macaroni and cheese. Oh, yes, now I know I'm thinking makeup in my head. That was my point. So here we both landed at Avon. She from craft me from Estee Lauder and we sat down in a room together and I knew I knew this was going to be an amazing experience because she was so real. She's like, look, you know, marketing fundamentals. I got it. I know how to build it. I know how to do that. I don't I don't do beauty. And I was like, okay, because I do beauty. But what is this regression analytics and what is this that I need to understand and because one of the things that I tell people is you need to understand the operating fundamentals of your business. You can have a great idea. But if you don't understand the fundamentals of how you're not only going to get it to market, but do it consistently and operate effectively and profitably. Right. So you have to understand the beast right and the market and what you're playing. So I would say that that was an amazing learning. Interesting because how could I quite frankly and humbly, you know, good for Andrea, how could I recreate direct selling for a new generation if I didn't know what the fundamentals were to begin with, right? Because I'm coming from prestige, which was all retail driven. And this was about, you know, the you being example of the fundamental. So I published basically five million catalogs every two weeks and understanding, you know, the productivity on the page, the adjacency, what was the stickiness, you know, here's a humbling humbling lesson for all you marketers out there, no matter what business you're in. I came with, I came from beauty. It was going into fall. I thought, of course, you'd put a fall color story on the catalog. Why wouldn't you, right? I mean, it's makeup. And so my boss from crafts said, it's not going to be sticky enough for this audience. She said, I think we got to put, I forget what her name was, but it was a flying which for Halloween, you know, which he whatever her name was. And I was like, what, it's a fashion book. My god, everybody's driving. We put the two books out in tests. And of course, my, my cover bombed and the flying which that lit up and cackled sold gazillions of my product of my color product because of the stickiness. So that was an important lesson of no your audience. Right. What's going to bring them in? And then where, where you're adjacency. It also, it also shows that if you have somebody who comes from a different industry, that could be in that positive, always huge positive. Always, I believe in diversity at the table, diversity in experience, age and gender and cultural. I think that's where you get your best. Yeah, you don't want to get more use thinking like you, thank you. I know what I think already give me some other ones. Don't tell me what I want to hear for God's sake. Tell me what I need to know. Right. We're in this together. Right. And no one has all the answers. So Claudia, there was kind of like in a corporate world I wanted to know since you were the one that when louder or acquiring a company. I think it's a hub it happened to with still. I heard a lady that shows up with a suit and said, I'm going to manage everything you're doing. Come on. Usually you say to the founder. You had that experience. Tell us what happened. I did. I did. So first of all, I was referred to as the suit. Right. So the suit is coming. And just in course of conversation is like, so you're here to make me do things like I don't want to do. If I don't want to do them. Right. And quite frankly, you know, the answer is, well, yeah, you sold your company. But instead, you know, what I said was only if what you do doesn't add value to the company for the long call. If you think I'm going to come in and be a hard ass, I'm only going to be a hard ass. If we're not delivering and we're not working together and we're not adding value to what you created. Right. Well, first of all, it's your creation. I mean, you should want you should want it to grow. Yes. And I think if you sold it, then you know that there are skills that you need that you don't have here. So let's not shoot, you know, let's not shoot the hand that just fed you. Right. Let's like, let's find a way to work together and it turned out to be great. I learned a lot from her and I hope that she feels she learned a lot from me too. But yeah, it was it was definitely a hazing in the beginning. But that's okay. I mean, that's what you pay to do. That's why you're put on these things to to manage through them with with diplomas. Do you have to feel like when you walk into the office, the new one, do you feel like people are intimidated or people antagonizing you? How was it? It was more passive aggressiveness. Interesting. Yeah, it was I would never say anything was blatantly, you know, in my face, I'm not going to do this just because you work for the company because, you know, quite frankly, yes, I do. And so do you, you know, when you when you cash your check back in the day, you know, it's not your signature anymore. Right. And so, you know, we all have to work together to create that that value. So yeah. So what's another corporate experience that you have that you wish some corporations didn't have and you have to go through it. Something that you can tell people, look, some companies do it and this is what they do and I wish they didn't do. I will tell you the most humiliating experience in my entire career. And it was during the time that I was overseeing the portfolio of businesses that were Laura Mercier, Revive and NKO and. Anyway, as often happens in leadership, we agreed to disagree and it was, was time to part company and instead of having a straight up conversation about it. The parent company flew in the HR person and some other person on their corporate jet. There was a snow storm and I remember coming to work in the snow storm because they were coming supposed to be the strategy session. And I come in and basically they fired me, but they had security there and they took my phone, which was my personal phone. And basically I had 15 minutes to collect anything I wanted and security was there to escort me out. I couldn't say goodbye to my team, which they're all wondering what is going on, you know, what's happening, who's in Claudia's office, what's going on here. It was awful. And I thought to myself, and I even said to them, it's like, let me at least say goodbye to the team and let them know we just, you know, nobody did anything wrong here. Yeah, right. There was no chaos or something to do with someone sleeping at table or anything. There was no chaos. I was just stunned because I'd never been treated so disrespectfully. I felt like a criminal so much so that my the backlash, you know, I mean, my team was shocked, you know, my phone was blowing up because I did get to keep my phone because I had my, you know, my personal stuff in there as well. So what I would say is, you know, it's not like I had the nuclear launch codes for the next lipstick package, right. I mean, it's beauty, right. And I am locked down by confidentiality in my contract. So it's not like I'm going to do anything crazy, right. I didn't have a meltdown or, you know, nothing like that. But I was meant to feel like a criminal so much so that people call me and said, did you do something wrong. Yeah. And it's like, yeah, I guess I disagreed with one other guy. Yeah, you know, I mean, I disagreed with the chairman of the board on, you know, on the go forward path. And, you know, clearly wrong answer. But I would say that that is probably the most inhumane thing a company can do. And big companies sometimes it's like, you don't have to take away people's dignity. You can agree to disagree and keep your humanity. And, and, you know, really what harm would it have done for them to let me say goodbye to the team. So I'm going to do last the company. I mean, I'm not an idiot. I know there's a parachute coming with it. Right. So I wouldn't do that. Well, a parachute, I guess you mean there's a severance. There's a severance that comes with it. Why would you blow away your severance? That's going to say something. Yeah. So that that was what's the name of the organization. Altacore is the parent company and they owned Gerwitch at the time. And actually, I should say not the parent company, but there was a division within it. There was a private equity group within the organization. And they were called Altacore corporate enterprises. And they, the, that's the division that turned. That's the true corporate. I mean, the corporation owns another, what's a name? Gerwitch? What's a name? Oh, Gerwitch, Gerwitch products. Gerwitch products. That was the three brands. That's the evil side of corporate. Yeah. Yeah. That's a side you don't. And look, you know, it was a long time ago, but it certainly for me was sobering. I've never, ever seen that, you know, in all the years I grew up. People left companies all the time, but they left with their head held high. And, you know, you said goodbye gracefully. It's all I've ever experienced. That's very odd because in the beauty industry, you were moving from one company to another to another to another. And you're always able to go back. You're always getting offers from the ones you left before. And I've noticed in the beauty industry, it's very professional. People go to louder, move to laurel, stand laurel, move back to louder, then go to the show, just a very professional one. People don't, it's not that it's not a thing in the main beauty industry, right? No, it was a little heavy-handed. And, you know, as I said, I had to your point. I had worked at S.D. Water. And I'd love to go to Avon. Very gracious. There was a beautiful party when I left. You know, I'd been invited back. I stay in touch with all my colleagues, you know, at Avon. Same scenario, you know, and certainly this one was a termination, which I'd never been through either in my career. But not for any wrongdoing other than a philosophical difference. And, you know, quite frankly, you know, that's okay too, you know, in terms of the performance and where we should be by what milestone. And they have a right to that. It's their company. And if that's what they wanted, and they didn't feel that I was the leader that could deliver it anymore, that that's fine. I totally get that. But I do think the manner in which one enters a relationship and exits a relationship is important. You know, when I get divorced, I remember, I thought myself, I don't want to marry a happy woman and divorce an angry woman. Exactly. I want to divorce someone, and then I want us to be happy when we see each other. Exactly. I want to know that when I come over and visit, she's happy to see me. Yeah. I want to know that when she's coming over, I want to be happy to see her. And that's the, that should be the same with employees. It doesn't always work, but it doesn't mean we have to stay in any cell. Exactly. And I'd never experienced that before. Nor since. So, yeah, I think, you know, I was a little scarred for a while. Yeah. But. Do you see in a corporate world today, I don't want to say, in a beauty industry, all the way to the corporate world, some CEOs that are not, they're not practitioners, they're just being parachuted from the top. I mean, you mentioned one with Sashado bringing in to manage bear minerals and then exiting bear minerals and losing money over it. But kind of like people that have no clue about the business, they're just managers. And do you see it ever working out? So you parachute in like a finance manager and CEO position or you mentioned one, you said the CEO role of the president's role. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's interesting. I think understanding the business you're in and it goes back to the operating fundamentals. You know, there's a reason beauty such a big business. It's the business of beauty, right? And it runs on a different cycle than like fashion. So sometimes if you bring someone in with fashion without any practical operating experience, it takes a little longer to understand that beauty is, it's not like fast fashion, right? You're building your how you manage your, your size of line, how you manage your working capital. All of those elements are very different. So I think smart people can learn anything for sure. So I don't think there is a good examples of companies work the CEOs, but I'm not talking about people that come in. As operators, people that just start being partial from the top that stays above that. I don't want to touch the little details, don't want to learn the little details. They just think like, you should know it and give me a projection. I'm going to sit on top and manage everything. I'll manage to fill right in stores. I don't need to know the plastic composition. I don't need to know who the manufacturers are just get it done. I've never worked in for anyone in that environment that was that disengaged. So I don't have any firsthand experience to give you an honest answer from from my purview. You know, it's interesting. I think I've seen people come in from other businesses and be extremely successful. I mean, look at Fabrizio Frida came from CPG. I think it's the best day, louder now. You know, consistent growth upon consistent growth year on year on year on year on year. What do you think make that growth for ST louder? Oh gosh, I think it's a combination of things. I think first and foremost, it's a portfolio of great brands that address different consumer segments. But the enterprise has an operational effectiveness that now today, back to a question you asked me earlier, about when you make an acquisition and you bring it in, how do you keep the brand, the brand? Yeah. And optimize, you know, the shared services, you know, the finance, the operations, the regulatory and legal and, you know, all of those other things that aren't necessarily consumer facing. I think that ST louder has done that, that rigor where they can bring them in and optimize them. I think there's always work to be done on keeping the brand, the brand and keeping it. What about the people though? Do you think there was a transformation with people? You know, I've been gone long enough where I don't have a day in a day operating perspective. But a lot of the people that I worked with are still there and doing well. And I will tell you, you know, having worked side by side with Jane Lauder, she knows that business in and out. She started, you know, she started on the ground, William started on the ground and they, they worked their way up. And that was very much Lauder's operating protocol and putting you in different functional areas to learn the business. I don't know if they do that still today because I haven't been there. But I think it's a good operating practice. You know, I'll tell you a little story coming to your industry. When I moved, I started flying on 2015 consistently to New York and I felt every time when that was the makeup for the beauty industry. And I felt every time I need to catch up when I'm not, when I've been back for two weeks. I do whatever I do, I work, work, work, come back to New York and I felt like I need to catch up just when you're not there, you don't exist. And every time I would come, I would try to get those big brands and I think that was prior to meeting you. And it was, it was that challenge because how do you get those big brands to even want to listen? How do you get them to come and say, okay, what is your offer? So I knew I came with the best offer, but you just need to get the right person that wouldn't be so busy in the time where the beauty was in its Renaissance time. It was just booming no matter what you do, you, you have to really mess it up. You just everyone were getting orders and orders like, why do I need to even talk to you? Move aside, I'm busy. So I go there and I remember was trying to get this one lady that was telling me, I'm going to, I've never told you that story. She was working as a head of marketing for Laurel USA and she was working over there and I was, I was approached, someone introduced me to her and she said, I'm launching my own box as well. I said, I don't care, I'd still need someone to consult. She said, okay, I will consult for you. I said, I want the big brands. That's all I want. She said, okay, let me go and look at your brand. She said the name. Are you sure about the name? I said, yes, I don't care about the name. She said, well, I mean, then I said, listen, I just need a brand. She said, well, also, let's look at your website, the look and feel said, listen, I'm sorry, I'm not going to modify the website. I just need a brand. Well, tell me who are you? Why are you here in seven words and what are you here to change in seven words? She said, yes, listen, I never done this. You managed Laurel's marketing. How about you start? You give me that about Laurel in seven words. Then I'll come back to you with mine. Well, Laurel, and she goes on, I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, it's already 70 words. She's like, well, Laurel, it's a big brand. It's a hundred kilowatt by why are you coming up with seven words for? Listen, I just need a big brand. Yeah, but you don't have a DNA. Who are you? Why are you here for? It's not about the money. I need to say, listen, I don't think it's going to work. Don't worry about it. Yeah, because your brand doesn't have any feeling anything. There's no DNA. I had no idea what she's talking about DNA. This is industry terms, by the way. I just knew if I'm going to get those big brands that everybody does hero products from big brands. I don't have to do nothing because that product is desirable. I don't need to think about it. It was just so easy to know what's important. A lot of people think like that. A lot of buyers think like that. Who starts a company like this, but that was apparently an imminent thing that you need to start before even start your brand. It'll be the depth of any great company because once you lose that scrappiness and when you lose that curiosity to learn more and to try to know, yeah, it has to be down a certain way of mentality. Yeah, she was a feat, right? But then she said, listen, you're never going to make it. You don't really know what's important. Did you call her recently? She called me once I met it. Once I started growing and I started making the industry magazines, she called me and she said, listen, I didn't know you're going to grow to that size. I guess I have to have some tips from you. I said, sure, what do you need? She said, well, you know, I'm still thinking with my brand and XYZ. I said, yeah, but that was two, three years ago. How many boxes did you sell so far? She's like, well, nothing. I didn't launch it yet because I'm still trying to modify my mission's statement around who am I? That's like analysis for all of this. Right. And that was the thing. So when I spoke to you, it was very refreshing because you didn't give fuck about all this stuff. It's just you're like, oh, yeah, brands, let's go. Okay, let me go and tell you how you get everyone to understand what you're doing. It was just to answer the question, like, how did you get the big brands without that stuff? Well, speeding a lot of blood. I mean, you have to really climb that mountain with that big rock that you push. You kind of know that you need that one big brand. And the real follow. Yeah. But the idea is that I said I'm a marketer, right? I'm a marketer for them. And it took. And I remember the first times where the big brands came in. I learned that a big reason they came. It's because their social media marketing theme became a thing before that social media wasn't much of a thing. So now there are guys we need to be with boxy charm. And I can tell you so many tactics. You know what tactics we did. Well, how about I would say one of the biggest things that I watched in terms of you connecting with people is we would go to these industry events. Yeah, all the time. And you know, just introducing you to people and then letting them spend time with you and feel that passion and that and and what your mission was and how you knew where the audience was going and how to reach them. And then all of a sudden people are like, who is that guy that you brought? What was his name again? And so, you know, you made the comment about earlier today when we were chatting about people who sit in their offices versus people who get out there. And I think that that is key. I think that's where it was absolutely. Yeah, you have to be there. I just didn't understand one of my competitors never been there. And I asked myself, but why he was the biggest wise and just where are you. But the thing was for me, it was it was kind of like bunch of stuff that you do, right? You can pin one. I remember one thing we did one brand really wanted to keep working with us again again. So what they did was they sent us a box. It was a cake, but it looks like boxy charm. It was all edible with all the products in it. So they just wanted us to repost them. There's our page was big. So we posted that. And then I said, fuck, this isn't this is it. Let's go. We made cakes in every big brand we wanted their business received a cake that look like boxy charm box. But it looks to perfection like a boxy charm box. It was like a thousand bucks for each one of them. And we don't know products inside. Yeah, exactly. What the big cake? Yeah, you know how many brands can be because of that? I mean, becker can be because of that. You know how many of them? And we got becker. It was Prosecopap first and we get champagne pop in our box. It was the D number one highlighter in the world. You blew that one out. Boom. It was just there is no competitions. It doesn't make it to a subscription box. It was it was kind of like, why would they put it? It's the hardest. And eventually we had better than sex mascara. We had it all. You name it. We wrote it in. And every tactic added. So when we said brand experience. Is that going to add to the brand's experience? Because we had the four pillars customer experience. I mean plot a best product in the box customer experience brand experience influencers experience. So for the brand's experience perspective, every time there was an idea, you said, will it be good? Well, it would change the brands will know us now. They're all going to have a cake in the office. They're all going to know who it is part of the experience. You wonder business. Anything that works. And it was the most simple tactics you would imagine. And you would just go around, look at what happened in the world. And so that would help you. That wouldn't help there. You're just very aware because you have a direction. And that direction was such an instrumental mindset to follow. It was it was probably one of them. And that's why I wanted to bring you over because that was just a very simple thing that you taught me that made me think. But for ever you change every company you open from now on. This is how you go. And this is how you make the destination easy to reach. It really is. That's very good. Yeah. I mean, it really is. You know, absolutely. And he is one of them. And it doesn't take much. I guess like I don't look at I don't know beauty, but I'm assuming that it didn't take much differentiated in beauty industry marketing. You're talking about how even social media was novel and new. I mean, that that goes to show you that like you take a simple idea. Like I mean, sending cake to. I don't know the word is empires, but sending cake to these like company representative stakeholders, all of a sudden you've just totally they've never received anything like that ever before. And you could copy you copy based into any industry if you want to make some. Exactly. I mean, if you think about that, it's that unboxing experience. Yeah. So no matter what I mean, I get supplements that come now. And you know, I open everything. By the way, ever since boxy charm every time something comes now, whether it's an influencer mailing in my industry or outside of. And like I said, just recently supplements like I was like, okay, let's see what this is. You know, and exactly. And are they leveraging QR codes to teach me a little bit about the product. What what happens when it arrives and engaging me from that moment with an element of surprise. Right. So there's so many things that are transferable from other industries. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. You pick up tools. The way I noticed I kind of like I always looked at this. It was very much for marketing, but it goes for anything else that I came in as a marketer doing marketing for other stuff. And I said, I didn't use any of those tools. It's kind of like I'm coming into a new continent. You have indigenous people with both and hers. And you're like, oh, I'll bring my AR right here. I'm going to be the. And it was it was as as you said, you pick from that industry now, the beauty industry is highly competitive when I walked in. It was only few that understood influencers marketing and people kept swimming against the core and trying to go with magazines and all that. I was like, okay, that's that's how they work. Once they're going to I knew how to manage that, but. But I was easy at the time. Today you go in you come everyone do the same thing. Everyone has AR. They all shoot at each other with the advanced weapons system. You don't want to go out. You mentioned that you are actually working with some potentially up and coming brands that could be like the next thing right. So what do they do different. So first of all, let's just start with the founders and you know, whether it's Joe or these these men and women actually that I'm working with. They have a vision. They have something that's differentiated in marketplace. One is a brand that's coming out that's based on longevity science. So it's a holistic view. So you, but you're a board member right now and consultant. So we're going to go back into it real quick, but you're a board member and consultant now on multiple companies, some of them are public companies. And I think what's what's making it very unique is that going from the corporate world day job. Now you have basically a job couple every few months you have couple days where you sit down with a particular board. And you go through some pretty hectic reading, but then eventually you give your your ideas and it you probably get a check from each one I would want to sell 100 grand. That's what I hear that they're paying. I don't know what you're doing, but that's usually the market. Honestly, it depends on the company the size of the company. Okay. And whether they're public or private, but you know, some companies are smaller and they they can afford that. Exactly. But then you get also stocks, right. So the idea is that you can absolutely leave us a consultant. But instead of just looking for opportunities here and there, you can go to a more structured format where you say, here's a public company they're looking for board member seat and someone with that particular experience. Tell us how do you get those people? What do you do if somebody wants to say I can leverage my knowledge. I don't want to work full time, but I do want to have couple of those gigs plus getting some equity. What do you do? How do you do it? So I would say to anyone, I started thinking about it heavy in the seat, like when I was at actually when I was believe it or not, I started thinking about it during that whole experience with bear. And it was like, okay, you know, two things I'd love to, you know, latch onto something else and have another run. But in the meantime, I remember seeing some of my colleagues start landing board seats outside of the industry so that when that time comes because whether we face it or not, you know, the beauty industry is, I hate to say it, but it's true. It's a little agist, right? And certainly being a woman in that industry, you're sensitive to that, you have to understand, okay, I'm not going to have somebody put an expiration date on me. So I better start thinking about it now. So I let that be known to some of the recruiters that I had spoken to through the years and said, okay, what do I need to do to get ready? And how do I need to market myself update, you know, my executive bio really think about, you know, what impact did I have on that organization and what could I bring it to. And I really started working with the coach to reframe my narrative to fit board seats so that you could look at other industries. So also asked you want to stay in beauty and it's like, no, that's where I work. So obviously, you want to change exactly. And I do believe that there are some great synergies. And so I was fortunate to have used a firm when I was trying to find a leader in the UK. And the firm was Spencer Stewart. And so I got a call from Spencer Stewart in the UK and also in the US about this specialty chemicals company that had businesses. And yes, in consumer products, but also in mining and agriculture and in diesel and marine and fossil fuels and how to clean, you know, burn cleaner, right. And give efficiencies and lessen the impact on the environment. I thought, wow, what an incredible company. Are you sure you got the right number like have you read my background. And it was great to be able to see your skills transfer as I was studying the company and what they were doing. I was like, oh, yeah, you know, this would be so applicable to their business at this point in their evolution as they're really focused on ESG and really focused on that and really focused on, you know, sustainability and sourcing. And the beauty interest trees there. So I would say to people start thinking now, no matter what field you're in, for example, technology. I mean, everybody lives off of it. Right. The world is tech enabled. Right. And so, okay. So then what are some other areas where I could take my learning and add value and work with some recruiters and get it. So certain recruiters that are specialized in getting board member seats, advisor seats, most of the big recruiters, whether it's a Spencer steward or Russell Reynolds or corn fairy, but most of those bigger firms as well as some boutique firms. And it's like, I don't even know those names. It's like a Robert half. I've, yeah, we don't know those names. So they're, no, well, they're, they're, they're actually great executive placement firms. And there's one JDH that I'm working with now. I sit on the board of fashion group with a gentleman who's a president of a recruitment firm that's excellent. And they have a board group. They have people who actually place board members and look at big companies and what their needs are. And what skill sets do they need on their boards for the appropriate governance? Do they have the right players in finance in legal, you know, on the commercial side of it. And so, you know, where are their places where executives with experience can add value to the executive team. So there are actually sections in these companies that that focus on board placements. And all our boutique firms do both. But somewhere along the course of your career, if you haven't been approached by a recruiter, then make yourself known, right? I mean, that's where you're at. Like, that's a stage you're at in your career. Yeah. Yeah. Make yourself known. Because right now, you're not managing the company. You're not an executive. You have your schedule open more than before. And you just go to the right firms. Make sure that if there is a good opportunity in the, now what company you would say that I would say that with the people that I'm working with now, there's an opportunity to get reengaged again. And in, in a more meaningful way for the right thing. There's one that I can't talk about right now, but for the right thing. Yeah. Because it, look, I mean, I, what am I going to do? Just, you know, there's so much energy and there's so much learning and, and the more time I spend with the young talent, the more I learn from them. And it makes you excited too. Yeah. It gets you excited when you see when you start up. Yeah. It does. And I think it keeps you, keeps you engaged. And sometimes it's just, I don't know that I just want to sit back and watch it go away. You know, sometimes that I don't know if I'm yet at that stage where it's okay. You know, yeah. And the other thing I would say to for anybody who is making that leap, what was helpful to me, as I walked into that boardroom and understanding that the executives are running the company. Right. And particularly if you're still operating because I was until recently, as you know, to December in the seat in that CEO role. And right now I'm doing some interim CEO work. So important to know when you're operating and when you're on a board and it's governance. Right. And you let the leaders lead. And you're there to provide, you know, strategic counsel. And I think that that's an important thing. And particularly for an entrepreneur, because my God, you know, you're, you're all over it. Right. And so hard to go into a room now. And it had all these great ideas. And it's like, well, yeah. They're going to take that right and run with it. It's humbling again. Right. It's not your company. I still wanted to, can we go back to the question I asked before. So I want to, I still want to understand, like we were talking about innovative marketing strategies that make up friends are using. So I was saying the ones that you're working with now, what are some of the things that you're seeing them do that differentiate that are sort of letting them be the, the, there's sort of carving the way for the next. Sure. So one is a machine on TikTok, like a machine. But this is a person with credentials in her field, who is, who understands how to connect with her audience and where her audience is. Right. And so I would say that aside from the fact that she's got a proprietary formula. She's got the credentials in the space. So this isn't an insta star. This is somebody who's been working in the business since, who quite frankly started industry. Who started behind the counter, you know, and assisted a great makeup artist out there and yet another and is still working in the field and has a point of difference product, but also understands where her audience is and I think she'll break through. But her concept is reminds me very much of what was happening in the 90s and all those those things that broke through another one has some great innovation in the skin longevity using longevity science for skin for supplements and topicals and really tapping into skin re revitalization from within your body naturally has NAD in it. And so this really works with your body to optimize it. And I'm not a scientist. So I'm not even going to try to explain the science. I'm so blown away by these by these scientists, but what they've done is really incredible and in finding a way that this can be absorbed topically down into the dermis, which is difficult for this molecule in the past. And so again, I like their whole biotech and is a biotech company just so happens that their first entree into the market is a skin supplement product. But again, I like the longevity approach because right now that's what we're all about and how they bring that to market, you know, without divulging too much, but technologies, big piece of that, right. You know, if you sit there and you look at the apple watch, right, and those commercials and everything it tells you, right. So you think about how do you bring that into your your whole lifestyle, right, in terms of what you're ingesting and what you're putting on and what you're doing. So embracing technology, embracing communication and community building through the use of what technology. So, you know, I think, but they're both using it differently. Does that answer you? It does. And what does breakthrough look like now? How do you so, you know, when you're looking at a company, you've mentioned this before, the whole industry is so much competition. Speed to market. In staying in staying amounts of competition. So speak to market. Yeah. Speed to market. You know, you know, the idea that I had in case I don't sell boxy Trump and things wouldn't work out because we was COVID years and all that. My plan was to do two things. One was to take a brand to go to big brands and say, give us an item. Let's create an item. We're getting my, we're going to manufacture and sell it on our site. You're going to send your people. It's open for everybody, not just our community. Only new items, something that doesn't sell in so far. So it wouldn't be a conflict of interest, but you just launch it with us. We do 50, 50. So we create revenue. But we'll do it every month and it's going to be Natasha the known for example to face all those big brands. This way they send all their email lists to us. We collect their money also, but it's the name email address. We get all the information. And then we can we can upgrade them to subscribe, but then the main point is it's another revenue that we don't do. And now we instead of going for the subscribers, we calling revenue. Now we're actually getting for free actual transactions, actual econ transactions. So then now the brands would look at us as marketers. We're going to really be a serious competition for Sephora. And I noticed that Sephora didn't come in to bias. And I said, well, because we were actually helping them. They don't fucking eat to bias. But if I do this now, it's a problem because all I have to do once I get big enough to start putting core products right now. I'm going only do newness. But when some big enough and they can kill me, I can go and tell them now rolling all your other products or at least couple core hero items that I know I can sell. And I can build it up. That was one phase, the second phase talking about speed to market that you mentioned. I figured that the only problem in the beauty industry is the fact that all the components are made in China. And that adds about two to three months, sometimes four months to the whole process. So why don't we have components made in North America, maybe in Mexico, maybe in Dominican Republic. So I start making funcals. And I learned that there's no particular reason just because you're already getting it from China and no one is trying to be faster. I called all the manufacturers and I not all but few. It blew my mind that all of them said, I don't know. I mean, okay, but the brand. If you know there is a trend that goes on right now, go back to holographic and I can be in stores within 90 days. The supply and demand if you have so many people searching for it and I'll be the third player to come or the second player to come. Of course, I want to come when 50 other comes in with the same supply chain problems. I want to be before anybody else. So if I was to do it, I'll be able to kind of like control and say, well, you can do it. Only if you sell your products on our platform will manufacture you the components faster and then you can do the whole the whole sale on our website. Now you launch it with us. Now it's a judgment because Sephora, if you stack with and then if you stack with products, have no fear we put it in our box. So there is no RTV. This is going to be zero chance for Sephora to ever compete because they don't have the subscribers. They don't do manufacturing and now I'm only selling newness. And the brand would only make money with us and the brand would have to go and be in my box in order for them to be in my so that was my plan to take over. So I wanted an input from an exec like you shoot holes into that series. Wow, I was just going to sit here and compliment you on that very. So okay, now really and I'll tell you why because what you just did was exemplify what we've been talking about today. And that is agility. You see something you see a market you're aware of the fact that it's it's got a gaping hole. Nobody's moving fast. Nobody's being a fast mover. That's why entrepreneurs are so exciting to me because you're nimble. Right. You can you can make a move and make an impact. You fail. You fail fast. Right. Not on a big scale. But you couldn't get their attention. Right. Because they didn't get it. But you had a solution for them that would have renovated everything. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So I don't I don't really want it to shoot there a hole in that theory because one, it never came to pass. But two, it was a great strategic play of how you would again take a brand Sephora that was innovative at the time. When they first came, they were the, you know, the place you went to incubate your brands. They had all the brands that people wouldn't take. They they were the story you lived. So naturally you would think when you went there, there would have been synergy and an understanding of that and embracing of that. Right. Not the case. Right. Right. And so, you know, I think that's the watch out for companies to as they grow is don't get complacent. You know, I always laugh. I keep this close to my heart as an individual, but also for companies like don't read your own press. Right. When when you stop being hungry and learning and nimble and, you know, but, you know, when you think you're you're all that. That's when, you know, the universe, God, whomever you've been. You know, the universe, God, whomever you believe in hit you with the humility stick in a sense of humor and says, oh, yeah, maybe not. You know, maybe you need to, you know, keep grounded in what made you successful in the first place and and stay hungry and and continue to do that. So that was, by the way, something you should tuck away because that just the. I was thinking of ever mentioning this on a podcast and I decided that, you know what? People would never do it. I think execution is is like so far off for everybody. It's not like I haven't spoken about other people that nobody wanted to actually go and suddenly learn something new because they're all somewhat comfortable, even if they're suffering right now, they're not going to go and execute a lot of people at the top. They're not working like they used to work. They're showing up to work every day. They're in the meetings. They're appeasing shareholders, the profit, but they're not working. They're not really, really, really working the way that you have to work. They're not thinking outside the box. They're not exploring new things like that. Nobody's even, you know, why though? Because if you set up the organization and you have eight hours of meetings, where's the time for creativity? Where's the time for the brand to even start to think of an avenue like that? And that's, that's, I have to build the org so that you don't get inundated and just bog down with all this BS. Yep. And I think the other thing that happened is while Zoom teams, whatever was a godsend and kept us, you know, safe. Look, I'm all for flexible work hours and remote and all of that. I grew up in sales. So my office was always in my home, right? So I didn't believe in FaceTime makes you successful, but I've worked for plenty of people that believe that. So I get it. But one of the things that I do think while it had its good points, the other thing that I've noticed is you don't have brainstorming sessions and strategic conversations. It's very transactional. You have a book for X amount of time. Here's the agenda. Here are the points you're going to cover. Okay, we have four minutes left. What do you write? Yeah, that's a, that's a challenge with a company that does that because you'll sit down and you'll talk and guys do something pressing the other facilities on fire. And we, a people are dying. Well, okay, thanks. The time for that topic is over. Now let's talk about the Jenna's birthday. Who bought balloons? Let's just, let's go and follow that routine. Just there is no consideration of important and urgent. Yeah, I think that's true. And the urgent also always crowds out the important and that's something that you really have to, you know, really have to work at. So I do believe, look, you know, I'm not here to preach to anybody, but there's something to be said for humanity coming together and feeding off of one another's energy and looking at looking at each other and building, you know, building that. And then you go off and do your other stuff and the tactical stuff for sure, but I think somewhere we've got to find our way back because that's where the, it's hard to get passionate about something on a screen. It's, it's virtually impossible. It really is. Ladies, I mean, you sit there and you know, you feel like you're one of the Brady bunch. I don't know if half your listeners even know what that show is. So another, yeah, it's a little dating. Yeah, yeah, I know the show. Yeah, yeah, I'm not from America. So I don't know what it is. I was a kid, but when you have all the faces on the screen, that's for example, that she's different. That's, you know, you have a screen of all these little faces, right? And the most annoying. Never mind. No one wants to know that I find it annoying when we have meetings and everybody has their camera off. It's like, well, what are you doing? That isn't, no, that, for me, that's a huge pet peeve. I was, I was talking about this with somebody yesterday. If I, okay, I get it. Sometimes there's life happening and you don't want to put on the camera. Maybe you're, you're taking a call and your car and it's on Bluetooth. And obviously you're not going to put on your camera. But like I like to see people. Well, I guess, I guess when you have employees and if, if someone consistently, which obviously happened to all of us, always not turning on the camera, the conversation I had with him is like, look, it's very simple for me. Okay. It's as if you're not showing up at the office. Okay. And you're on a phone call with me. No, I told you to be at the office. Now, since we're on zoom because of COVID, I expect you to clear your schedule to work. You're sitting down. You're not going to travel to Orlando. This new world calling me in a roller coaster right now and plugging your earbud on your zoom. No, I needed to sit down and work. If you're not doing it, you're not working. Don't bother coming on the Zoom call. If I'm not going to see your face. It's a courtesy thing too. Like if everyone's putting on their camera, say you can't say you are actually walking somewhere with your AirPods and just say, hey, sorry, like at least address it. Well, I'll tell you where I think it's a little bit more than just if you're not an employee, it's a courtesy. But if you are working in an organization and the in you see that the person is not turning on the camera, after you finish the meeting, you probably have some tasks to do after you bet that person that the internal camera is doing something else. If you are prepared to work and you're sitting down in front of your screen, you turn on the camera, when you're done, I know that that person is much more likely to execute what they are what we ask him to do. But the other person that didn't turn it on because whatever condition was is not in a working condition. He's not going to execute right away. He's much more likely to push it under the rug. And if the follow-up is in a week from now, go figure that's where the inefficiency come in that so you can find the ones that are just not made for some people were made to work at the office. They need that structure for them. And by the way, okay, don't be wrong. I am on one of those that when I was at school, I never liked online courses. It was not for me. But when it's work, it's not a game for me. It was much more important to check you have to go and do it. So that's where I was, I was much more apprehensive. When I saw this as a trend, I saw some great people that eat amazing suddenly when they work from home, they're not the same. They're not shining on and sometimes on the other side, people that work from home perform better. You've got to have, I mean, as a professional, you've got to have self-awareness to operate at your highest level. That's what you have to do. If you're in office and you feel like you thrive in that environment and the job that you're doing warrants it and you feel that you need to be created with people in a room and whatnot. Or maybe you just like the rigidity of that schedule, then you structure your life, you structure your jobs, you can do that if you don't. I don't mind working at home at all. But there's some times where like, for example, I'll function better at home in certain environments where people aren't distracting me. Like when I'm in an office, you people can walk in all the time, right? They're like fires. I mean, the other thing is if you're trying to hire somebody trying to build rapport with somebody who you've never met before in your life, you can't really do that via Zoom. It's virtually impossible. So it's very hard. It's not like if you're going to hire somebody when I would hire people, I'd go for lunch with them. Sit down with them, right? Like spend some time with them. So you have to balance out. So there's sort of a place for both, I think. Yeah, and I think we're trying to find that place now, because really it is. It's a little bit of both. And it's not the same ratio for everyone, but it has to be the right ratio to bring your best self to whatever you've committed to professionally. You've got to bring the best of you to that. Yeah, 100%. Claudia, thank you so much for coming. Thank you for having me. It was a really good interview. I'm so glad we learned a lot. I mean, I just learned this is your first ever podcast ever. This is my work. I'm so honored. We're very, very proud of you. We give you an A-plus. No guest actually received a great and this is the first time get an A-plus. Is that true? It is. I love being a guest in class. Just a little, a little, what is that? What did we overachiever? Overachiever. Yeah, overachiever. That's great. Honestly, thank you. Thanks for your patience and the opportunity. Where do you want people to know anything more about you? Where to reach you? Socials? Anything like that? Well, Joe will tell you I'm not. I watch all the social media, but I'm not always engaged. So if you want to get to me, go to my LinkedIn page, send me a message. I promise. Yeah, it's Claudia Poche at LinkedIn, right? Yes. Yeah. See, that tells you that I do check whoever you're out there. And what's so bizarre is I live in that world, right? I'm on TikTok all day watching this girl and I'm on this and that. I just, you use it on a business network. Yeah, yeah. Definitely. Yeah. I figure, you know what? If I want you in the car with me, seeing all this, I'll pick you up. Yeah, I'm not going to do it on Instagram. I'm not going to do a live. I'm not going to do it. No, I appreciate you. Thank you. Thank you guys so much. Thank you, Claudia. Thank you. You