Julie Winkle Giulioni - Author, Speaker, Consultant | Promotions Are So Yesterday

Welcome to Success Story. I'm your host, Scott D. Cleary. The Success Story podcast is part of the HubSpot podcast network. The HubSpot podcast network has incredible podcasts like Entrepreneurs on Fire hosted by John Lee Dumas. Entrepreneurs on Fire stokes inspiration and share strategies to fire up your entrepreneurial journey and create the life you've always dreamed of. Listen to Entrepreneurs on Fire or Success Story wherever you listen to your podcast. Today my guest is Julie Winkle-Juliani. She is a two times best-selling author. She is a TEDx speaker and she is a champion of workplace professional growth and development. She is a co-author of the International Best Seller, helped them grow or watch them go. That was translated into seven languages and she is the author of the soon-to-be International Best Seller. Promotions are so yesterday. In addition to writing and speaking on workplace and development issues, she leads the firm design arounds. They create trainings to organizations worldwide. They have earned praise and awards from Human Resource Executive Magazine's top 10 training products, the New York Film Festival, Brandon Hall, and Global HR Excellence Council. She has built her entire career about helping people level up in their own careers. So we spoke about her origin story, her pivoting from teaching to creating global corporate training programs to what she speaks about and evangelizes now, how people can help their employees level up, how we can create better frameworks for a professional development and workplace development. We spoke about her actual framework. She has a seven alternative dimension of development framework, so not financially driven, not a job title or promotion driven. She focuses on contribution, confidence, confidence, connection, challenge, contentment, and choice and how as a manager or a leader or CEO to actually upskill your team with these seven dimensions. We spoke about why promotions are so yesterday, while alternative career development is so important. We spoke about what career development looks like today, the reality of the job market, what people are looking for, why they're staying with companies, why they're leaving. We spoke about what it means to career climb today. We spoke about as an employee, what to look for if you're going to go into an organization with type of culture. Should you be part of how to take initiative if your manager doesn't multiple ways to grow your career competence and efficacy. Lastly, we spoke about what leadership is in terms of career growth, why we should be looking at leadership as a person, what that means exactly and how it can help you better understand how to support your team. Let's jump right into it. This is Julie Winkle, Giuliani. She is a TEDx speaker, 2X bestselling author and evangelist of workplace growth and development. The origin story, you know, I've been a teacher I think since I came out of the womb. I just remember my first play dates were all about blackboards and books and showing people how to do stuff and my mom when she went to her first parent-teacher conference when I was in kindergarten. I've gotten stars on all my papers so she was expecting a great conversation and she came back and she shared with me that I was doing very well academically but that the teacher was afraid to leave the room because she was afraid that I would take over the class and start teaching if she wasn't around. So in my heart and so I think I was just born to teach and so it made sense that my first job was teaching. It was actually teaching modeling and charm to children. What does that mean? You know, you know, you know, you've squeaks, their parents would bring them in and they'd want them to learn how to say please and thank you and demonstrate good manners and we also threw a little modeling in there as well. They got to graduate with a fashion show and I'm firmly convinced. If you can teach five-year-olds manners, you know, that's a great platform for probably anything in life. And so it moved on. My audience just grew up and I taught high school for several years. I was a college professor and department chair before going back into industry but also in learning and development roles. I was training manager for a couple of different organizations before going to work for a commercial training company that built and delivered training worldwide to organizations and so that's where I cut my consulting teeth and that's where I learned this really weird niche skill around how to build a commercial training program which is really different than building a program for one organization or one small audience building something that's going to work for any level, any industry, any country. It's a really it's a different animal and a great skill set to have learned. So 20 years or so I left that role went out on my own and continued to do that kind of work and I still do that kind of work. I love the instructional design training development puzzle but 10 or 12 years ago I guess it's been now one of my clients Beverly Kay invited me to co-author a book that turned out to be help them grow or watch them go and at the time I said sure you know it's kind of one of those bucket list items and how hard can it be right? I deeply discovered but it's a really opportunity just a wonderful chance to be able to step into a whole new and yet not whole new skill set you know day was playing off of my teaching and and the writing work that I'd been doing but help them grow my bucket list let's do that because it'll be fun sort of project turned out to be a real game changer I had no anticipation or how big that book would would become it became a bestseller it's been translated into seven languages it was a bestseller in Russia I ended up keynoting in Russia as a result of all of this but the opportunity to really have an impact on managers and supervisors who were struggling with how do I have these career conversations with people it's been just a joy for the last 10 years sort of writing that way and that's what you know allowed me to do the the TEDx talk and literally travel the world talking about career development and it allowed me to keep learning more about career development as well really the realities that people were up against and the question that I asked everybody everywhere I went was what does career mean to you and it became sort of a field resource research project anyway fast forward a couple of years ago ATD the Association for Talent Development which is one of the biggest learning and development associations in the world invited me to do some blog posts and at the time I was pretty busy and really had to think about gosh can I fit this in but ATD is such a great organization and gratefully I did because one of their editors read one of the posts and said that could be a book would you be interested and so that's how it's it's come to pass that I have written promotions are so yesterday redefine career development help employees thrive and it comes out on March 8th 2022 so we're going to talk about that in a bit I want to go into a few things that you experienced in your career and understand them and maybe that can sort of frame why you moved from training programs into career development so as a when you're creating these training programs and structuring them for organizations what did you see was missing with all the employees across all these different different industries categories different geographies what was the what was the thing that you saw that they were lacking in their career because obviously it was enough that it prompted you to sort of go down this rabbit hole of I'm not just going to teach and and and sort of deploy these global training programs I'm going to help people understand how to better communicate and interact and engage with and support their employees yeah yeah so so much of the work that I've done an instructional design is in the leadership space so I've had the opportunity to really delve deeply into leaders managers supervisors and what they're up against which is extraordinary you know there was a time when managers only manage the performance of people that was their job and today there are very few managers who don't also have deliverables projects clients and all the rest of the day-to-day work that employees have as well and all by the way make sure you fit in that most important most critical responsibility around helping your people grow and so what's been missing for a lot of organizations a lot of leaders a lot of employees is a manager's capacity to really meet people where they are in terms of delivering the support required for the growth that they want you know I did some research a couple years ago pre-pandemic but I would stand by it today and asked employees about what their expectations were of managers one of the top expectations that employees had across the generational continuum from Z's through boomers was that their managers have a fundamental responsibility to help them grow and yet in organization after organization when you look at the engagement surveys the climate surveys the exit interviews one of the primary problems people have is that they're not getting the growth and so the the problem that the the last book in this book promotions or so yesterday is designed to really address is how can we help managers who are overburdened have more to do than can ever get done in a given day how can we give them the tools that make it easy for them to do job one which is growing their people okay that makes sense to me and so that so I understand that the progression through your career excuse me now the particular I always find this interesting the the title of your book so promotions are so yesterday why did you choose that title what does that mean and and and obviously what does it mean to you and why it was so important but also what does it mean in the context of the the average person in an organization why would they not want to get promotions why is that a thing of the past and thank you for asking because the title really is intended to sort of get attention it's intentionally cheeky to to grab the the hearts and minds of potential leaders very good I like it and I can't take credit for it my publicist Fazia Burke of FSB associates came up with it just as kind of a throwaway line one day when we were trying to figure out what to call the book and when she said it both of our eyes just kind of got really big and it was like that's the name of it and the truth is if my publisher would let me have billboard rather than these you know few square inches the title could have probably been something like promotions or so yesterday is the exclusive and default definition for how we define career success you know we could have gone on a little bit more but the the the shorthand promotions or so yesterday acknowledges the reality that we're up against today when you look at today's organizations they are lean they're flat mid-levels of management have been you know taken out of the org chart some positions they're they're going open longer and now with so many organizations going remote and hybrid even you know some of those geographic boundaries now that are mean there's more competition for roles within an organization and yet despite the fact that intellectually we all get that there are fewer you know the nature of an organization is a pyramid or a pinhead in some cases but it gets narrower and narrower and we understand that intellectually and that there's something in our hearts or in in the gray matter somewhere that when we hear career and career development it just hijacks the brain and takes us to that expectation that we're going to be invited up that corporate ladder it's just this default setting that somehow you know has slipped into our DNA and it's a mathematical impossibility at the end of the day we can't give a promotion to everybody who wants development and yet because that's been sort of the only thing on the menu the only way we've talked about what career development is for all these years we're creating dissatisfaction for employees who aren't getting those promotions and we're creating tremendous angst for managers and supervisors who know they don't have those promotions to give and so then they're wary about should I even have this conversation I don't want to set expectations and tick people off and disengage them so promotions are so yesterday as the only way that we're going to be defining career development going forward and what my field research found was there are actually seven other dimensions of career development that are actually they're more interesting to employees than that climb up the corporate ladder it's just that we haven't had the language to talk about it or the the additional items on the menu for folks to order those up understood and is that a recent phenomenon is this because even before we were speaking and we press record we're talking about what motivates and what drives people to move in certain directions for their career so what has a landscape changed in the past two years or is this a generational thing so walk me through that so the landscape's been changing you know right along and I would say the last two years have probably amplified some of the issues that we have have been grappling with what I would say is this multi-dimensional career framework that I've developed speaks to engagement and it has elements that levers maybe is a better way to to say it levers that managers and and leaders have probably been using throughout their careers what's different about this is we can use these same levers or dimensions specifically for the purpose of development so what happens is for instance one of the the dimensions is contribution what we know from the research is people want to there's this human need to step up to to make a difference to be of service to do something to live on purpose and so managers you know for years have tapped that use that lever it helps people feel that sense of contribution what I'm talking about in the book is let's keep doing that but let's make it reciprocal let's turn it into development because the truth is when I step up and I do something more when I decide I'm gonna make a difference I'm gonna change this process I'm gonna lead this project or I'm gonna problem solve for the customer I'm making a contribution to the organization but I also have tremendous opportunity to grow and learn through that and when managers on the front end of that contribution when managers can sit with an employee and say what do you want to get out of this what skills do you want to have developed what visibility might you want to enjoy what do you want to be able to do differently on the other side that it's at that point I'm giving but I'm also getting and at that point we've got a really rich reciprocal you know relationship there and is that something that so so when when do you start to deploy this framework so I'm a manager or I'm even an early stage startup founder and I want to I want to hire talent obviously and I want that talent to to you know work hard for my organization I've seen all their KPIs I want them to feel like they're you know they're welcome part of our culture I want them to feel like they're growing because I know that if they feel like they're growing they're gonna be excited about working for the organization so that's probably gonna you know be to my benefit as well now at what point do I start is it when I first onboard them I'm setting these expectations about what career growth looks like or is it like I guess sort of practical tips for somebody that wants to sort of deploy this in the organization when do they start working on it is it from day one I would say it's from day zero when you're in the recruiting and interviewing process that's the perfect time to start painting a picture of what growth development engagement success looks like within your organization to set a realistic set of expectations about what that candidate can expect when they join you and so if you think about it especially right now candidates have so many choices the competition for talent is fierce so if you had a choice if you are a candidate sitting with a manager who says you know we are really committed to development here in this organization and certainly moves and promotions of positions that's a piece of it but where we focus in on is what's gonna be most interesting to what kind of growth do you will you want at any given time and so we've got this framework and we're going to talk to you about sometimes you're going to want to step up and learn through contribution other times it's going to be competence sometimes it's going to be connections you know building your network and we're going to work with you to get that visibility build that kind of a community that you're looking for there are going to be times when confidence is where we're going to want to work together and find ways jointly to help you really feel that sense of assuredness and that you've got this in your space there are going to be times when it's going to be challenge or let's be honest there are times when you know over the course of this career you might have to back off a little bit and lean into contentment and ease and joy and balance we might want to find ways to boost the choice the autonomy the flexibility that you have we have all of these different avenues to go down during the course of your career with us and we're going to work with you to make sure that you're growing every day you're here versus a candidate who's hearing from a manager yep okay so you're coming in as managering in a couple of years you could probably get to a director level and by year five maybe you're an AVP I don't know about you I'm going with manager number one yeah no I'm sorry no no no I was going to say I was going to say I want to I want to understand because the other part of it is how do we so I see where you're saying you want to go with manager one but I want to understand is it the candidate that we have to look for that looks for alternative development like these seven development dimensions because I know that there's also people that I've interviewed in the past that are like I do want the title I do want more money so can I still hire that person and maybe set expectations and I'm just sort of spitballing here but maybe my expectations are I'm going to develop you so that you could actually go somewhere else where that is tangible but I'm going to use you for these two years or something like that and this is what I can offer you right now but know that we're going to try and get you to where you want to go in your career and it won't be with us is that something that we could do for somebody that is driven by some maybe different lovers absolutely and there are folks for whom the climb of the corporate ladder is absolutely their goal so that's a reality I don't believe that at any point that's that motivation will entirely go away and it's probably the appropriate step four nearly all of us at different points in our career the challenge with the climb of the corporate ladder is it's out of the control of the manager and the employee you know we have very little influence over that whereas the other seven dimensions are absolutely within the control of the manager and the supervisor so in that scenario absolutely you have someone who has traditional ambitions to move up the corporate ladder no reason to close the door on that person but when you overlay the opportunity that beyond in between and besides those promotions here are all the other ways we can help you grow you're not going to be sitting on your hand sitting in the waiting room you know in between those moves you're actually going to be in the training room in the classroom day in and day out developing the skills the ability the network the confidence that you need and we acknowledge you know maybe we're not going to be the place you're going to retire from and that's okay because the truth is I mean as you well know Scott managers who do this well develop a reputation for development they don't have any trouble backfilling talent people are standing in line to work for someone like that now at the same time though I also want to show the other side of of the coin here because climb is absolutely important to some people different points in their career but when we when I created the multi-dimensional career framework with these seven dimensions plus climb we did some research whether we're 700 folks worldwide and we just simply asked them with a quick line of definition for each of these prioritize them sequence them rank order them for most important you know what you're most important what's most interesting right now to you how you want to grow right now all the way down to the least interesting and when the research came back in aggregate all of those seven dimensions contribution competence connection confidence challenge contentment and choice all ranked higher than climb an aggregate climb was at the bottom now there was one group for whom climb wasn't it was second to the bottom it was the 20-somethings we did it in 20s 30s 40s and so on for for the 20-somethings climb was second from the bottom and choice was dead last for them which kind of makes sense you know as they newer entrance to the workforce may welcome more structures they kind of get their legs under them but an aggregate contribution was first competence was second and uh and then you know it goes from there but climb was absolutely dead last and so what's happening is so many managers are fearful they've got this angst or they avoid all together the career conversation because they don't think they've got anything of value to offer people they've got seven dimensions that in many cases are more valuable than the climb so I'm a manager I have a million and one things on my plate and I'm sure that you figured out a way for me to to do this effectively while still doing everything else because I know that's the first thing that anybody is going to you know they're going to push back on they're going to say listen like I would love to I would love to help this person network I would love to help this person have more autonomy I can barely keep track of what they're doing already how am I just giving them new jobs new roles new responsibilities all the time so what's the framework for actually doing this as a manager because I think everybody would want to do this I don't think anybody's going to be like no I don't want to make people better it's always uh it's always a matter of like prioritizing and time and bandwidth right yeah no you're you've hit the nail on the head you're right I don't think any manager wakes up thinking I think today I'll thwart my people and keep them small uh it's in everybody's best interest for employees to grow that goes without saying and you're right you know when we did the research for the first book help them grow or watch them go um we wanted to get to the bottom of why managers weren't doing this and time was number one three to one uh any other issue and you can't argue managers are are absolutely starved for time and so so the question is how do we use the time that we already have with folks perhaps a little differently so we aren't going to invent more time or add any more time to the day but how can we redeploy the time that we've got so first thing that we've done is we've created a self-assessment that employees can take that helps them understand their priorities there's a copy of it of course in the book but we also have an online version of so managers can accelerate the conversation by inviting people to do this self-assessment and even the act of self-assessment assessing even before they get their their results just the act of starting to consider these different dimensions and rank ordering some of these things that becomes a huge aha for folks so they go through that process they get a personalized report email to them and it it rank orders what their greatest down to their least interesting dimensions are defines us a little bit goes into their top dimension or dimensions in some detail and gives them some reflection questions so if a manager is committed to engaging with employees with this new framework they can with you know simply an email to that employee make this suggestion and be conversations ahead by the time they actually come together and then can look at all right where are so there's no guesswork it's very clear where are the interests here and then what the book does is each of the chapters is one of these dimensions and it gives specific activities that you can engage in with the employee most of which are embedded right in the work i use the expression transforming while performing when we can double-team it when we can make real work be the development then again you're taking that time issue off the table and so how can we embed for instance a new challenge that's really focused and aligned with somebody's growth goal how can we embed that in their job i mean it becomes one of their KPIs one of the goals on their performance review it's not separate from over in this you know corner here it is the work becomes the development and the development then becomes the work so those are just a couple of ways that we can start to address the legitimate time challenge managers have i just want to take a second and thank the sponsor of today's episode hub spot now if you want to organize your business you need a CRM if you actually want to grow your business you need hub spot CRM with hub spot your sales marketing customer service and ops teams will have access to all the same dynamically updated data so they won't get their wires crossed on where customers in their journey or how to convert them plus hub spot CRM is easy to buy and easy to use so you don't have to waste valuable time onboarding your teams or managing software and you start seeing value right away learn how hub spot can help your business grow better in 2023 and get a special offer of 20 percent off on eligible plans at hubspot.com slash success pod can you give me i know there's obviously a few but can you give me like one example of one of these you sort of touched on it briefly the fact that you'd build this into their KPIs and and actually have this as an objective but can you give me maybe like a little bit more in depth of like one example of how you would actually do this with one employee based on one of the one of the dimensions sure absolutely man we could do this all afternoon this could I know we could do this all I could go through everything but there's still you still have to go get the book to get there okay thank you Scott I appreciate that so let's just take on one connection and you know I it's one of my favorite of the the dimensions and we've heard that expression you know it's not what you know it's who you know and that's a little bit of an overstatement but clearly the the relationships that we have have a profound effect on our career growth and especially over those last couple of years man connection has become increasingly important to people so so let's let's suppose you have an employer manager you have an employee for whom connection is a high priority so the question is what do you want to learn with whom through whom in order to satisfy your need for connection while also growing so when I hear from a lot of folks is you know they default to okay well make an introduction or mentoring or coaching and those are all legitimate they're in the book they're you know strategies for doing that but what frequently falls off a manager's radar screen is the opportunity to put people together strategically on teams on projects around initiatives that allow them to engage with others for strategic purposes you know really intentionally deliberately pulling this team together toward real work that needs to get done and the good news is you know there are plenty of voids and problems and issues in most organizations that you can bring people together around but so frequently you know when you think about networking and just connecting there's a lot of social anxiety I know we have after two years of being shut down people don't feel quite like themselves anymore even making small talk for some folks is challenging and if you're an introvert on top of that just freeform networking that's not going to be a meaningful way to connect but you start putting people shoulder to shoulder working together when you give them the excuse to be together and doing something of a value to the organization then that discomfort falls away you've got something to talk about you've got something in common and you're able to make a very you know meaningful connection when I look back on projects and initiatives with others those are some of the strongest relationships that I have and people in my network my network that I know I can relate count on so that's one way you know real meaningful work strategically bringing people together around work that needs to get done that handles the connection piece of it that leads to the growth but that also Scott goes back to the challenge that we talked about a moment ago it's time this isn't extra and above it's embedded right in there and that project successful completion of that project is something there also evaluated on so you're able to to get the real work done you're able to get the development done and you're able to evaluate and support both one of the things that you've brought up in past conversations is that to be a leader you should be a prison and I want to understand what that means because I thought that was an interesting point and I had no idea what it meant so obviously obviously it's a topic that you've spoken on before so what does that mean in the context of career growth support your support for your employees I really like light there is something about light yeah well in fact you I've got blackout curtains on the windows because if I didn't we'd have we don't have even you know window treatments that's how much I like light in here and and as a leader I just really can envision that my job is to take this beautiful light that comes through your folks each of your individual employees and if I can position myself in the right way to support them the right way what comes out on the other side is this beautiful rainbow of possibilities and skills and contributions and talents and superpowers that you couldn't see that they couldn't see coming in it was just white they are coming in but if I can get myself positioned at just that right angle for them suddenly it breaks out and you can see the richness of who they are and they can see the richness of who they are and the prism also really works for this multi-dimensional career framework too because traditionally we have have looked at career development in this one-dimensional either up the corporate ladder or sometimes two-dimensional the climbing wall and the jumble gyms and the lattices and stuff that have the lateral thing but I'm almost saying let's put the prism on the side of career and as the light goes through it breaks career out into these other dimensions of contribution and choice and and whatnot it feels to me like as leaders when we're really intentional when we understand who that person is when we really see and experience them as a whole when we invest in them holistically we can position ourselves to help them see the breadth the depth the possibilities that may not be obvious initially I love that that actually is a very good analogy I'm glad I asked that it's it's a great analogy it makes a lot of sense and let's let's flip the script a little bit and let's look at from the perspective of the employee or the person going into an organization what should they look for what are the cultures that usually tend to foster development and the people that you'd want to work with you know if I were looking for a job today and sitting down across the table from a perspective hiring manager I would ask them to tell me a little bit about the people who have left their organization what they're doing where they are how that went that speaks volumes to be honest with you I was talking to it's been a little bit ago managing director of a financial services firm and just a marvelous director of or a developer of people and he would take talent and just bring out the best up in them skill them up and because his organization wasn't able to compensate them well enough and so they were being picked off by competitors and as we were talking he was still so upbeat and positive about the whole situation and I finally just had to say John help me understand this you know you are hemorrhaging talent you're doing everything you can to grow them and they're just leaving by the droves help me understand why you're smiling as you're having this conversation with me and he told me about a situation where someone who he had grown gone to a competitor obviously very disappointed about the whole thing but they together had just collaborated on a piece of business the largest piece of business his company had ever been able to secure he said I could have never done that with just anyone I could trust him he had my back I had his back I know he was loyal to me I knew his skill level and we could do something together even though he wasn't in our organization any longer and I thought gosh what an abundant mindset to bring to talent but it also was just this perfect you know like a karmic circle that he did the right thing and the right thing came back to him so I would love I think evidence of a development culture is how people talk about those who've left that speaks volumes about how we approach development and the generosity you know sort of back to the point that you made earlier I might only have you for two years and that's okay let's make this a great two years where you're contributing to us but where we're making a difference to you as well and and I think that you know you've you've mentioned that you've pulled out a few data points and you've done a few studies can you paint a picture of the reality of the current I think you've touched on this but just to sort of double down the reality of the current job market why it's so important to even care about this in terms of how fast employees switch jobs or what employees are looking for everything that has like you mentioned it's sort of fast forwarded through COVID what does the average employee do they stay for a year they stay for two do they if you don't focus on these things how fast did they move to the next job obviously everything's virtual now so it's very easy to switch jobs so do you have any data points or just some stuff on on the the current reality we're living through oh my gosh yeah yeah we could run through numbers from now it'll doom stay so the latest numbers I'm familiar with we will have an average of 12 jobs over the course of our year our careers average 10 year is down to four years but that's variable based upon level industry and that kind of thing career development continues to be one of the primary reasons people join a job stay at a job you know leave a job linked in did a survey I want to make sure I get the number right 94 percent of employees said they would stay longer in an organization if they felt like the organization was investing in their development but the statistic that is just blowing me away these days um employees who don't perceive growth opportunities are almost eight times as eager to leave even if they like their jobs so someone who is satisfied in their job it's not like they don't like what they're doing but if they don't feel like they've got growth opportunities eight almost eight times as as eager to leave and find something else so from my perspective you know as we look at the great resignation reshuffle re-evaluation whatever you want to call it lots of reasons for that but one of the levers that managers have completely in their control is the ability to offer people opportunities for growth and if we can paint a possibility filled future a picture where opportunities for growth live I think we have the opportunities managers to keep folks longer and also to attract the kind of talent that we need yeah no that's very those are incredible stats I I didn't know you had them handy but that's really good that's that's that really paint a picture I had no idea like I had I had some idea but when you go into the numbers it's it's very it's very obvious that people have to get you know pardon my friends like get their shit together when it comes to providing the proper culture for people because I think that if you're lazy and you don't focus on these other other dimensions and these other levers to help people grow I think it's going to be increasingly difficult for you to secure talent for you to keep talent it's going to be like there's like there's financial reasons why this is going to be a necessity at one point that's a really good point that's a really good point Scott there is a business case for doing this you know we use a lot of career development as a soft squishy stuff but this is hard bottom line stuff and again even the best developers of people you're going to lose talent stuff happens people are going to shift and move and interests are going to change and whatnot but if a manager or a leader builds people development career development as a core competency they don't have to fear the loss of talent because they've got the ability to bring that next person in and up to speed very quickly and effectively very good okay I want to I want to pivot into some rapid fire just to pull some last minute insights out of you before we pivot what closing thoughts on on your work what what do you hope to accomplish over your life what would be the ideal outcome if somebody was to look back at your your body of work what what impression do you want to leave on the world impact you want to leave on the world wow that's deep Scott it is well you're doing you're doing this for a reason so what is what is where do you where do you hope to see your work impacting the future of work the future of progress the future of of personal professional development because you're doing it for a reason yeah at the end of the day if people said what she did make my job easier and more joyful made it easier for me to help people grow and made it more joyful because I really saw that the development was happening and I saw people reach their potential people said that about me I would feel like that was a life fairly well lived on the work front very good very good um where do people go get the book and then also more also as just as important where do people connect with you on social all the websites all of that probably the easiest place to find me is my website julie winkel julieony.com and i'm sure you'll put that in the the show notes yes a lot of letters there and um at that site you can learn anything that you need you can learn about the book you can also take that self-assessment that I I mentioned and the book promotions are so yesterday redefine career development help employees thrive that's published by atd press is available for pre-order now and it launches on march 8 it's available on amazon and all your fine booksellers perfect is there any socials your best socials yep i'm on twitter and linkedin and facebook all same name okay perfect perfect perfect perfect perfect okay let's do a couple rapid fire uh the biggest challenge you've had to overcome in your personal or professional life what was it had you overcome it what you learned from it biggest challenge i don't think i've overcome um i still struggle with it and it's balanced you know it's it's finding that balance um and you probably share it too when you are an entrepreneur when you're doing your own work and you love what you're doing it is so easy to just become consumed by it and forget you know even with family and friends and everything to forget that's i am in a constant tension between you know not trying trying to to throw myself into my work and thoroughly enjoy that while also making sure that i've got the the ease and the rest and the rejuvenation and the the other kind of fun time as well so that's i think that might be life's challenge for me this time around a hundred percent that that is a challenge of everyone who's passionate about anything for sure and it is a constant struggle but that's a good challenge it's a good problem to have it means you're in the you know you're in your zone of genius or whatever whatever you call it um you're doing something you love and you're passionate about um if you had to choose one person obviously there's been many people but one person who's had an incredible impact on your life who was that what did they teach you i've been blessed with so many great role models um it is probably cliché but i'm i'm gonna go with my dad my dad was this amazing man he had an eighth grade education he had to drop out of school and he was an eighth grade to support his family and he ended up being a printer uh and when he and my mom got together and they had family and we were starting to go to school my brother and i they wanted something more for us than they had had and a printer salary doesn't go very far and so my dad made the commitment he basically took a second job my dad worked two jobs most of the time i was growing up he was gone before i woke up in the morning um and and not home till after i was in bed and it was the most extraordinary and generous act i didn't realize it at the time of course you know kids take that for granted but in retrospect the most generous um act of love for his family but he was also an incredible role model for work ethic um and so not a day goes by that i don't reflect upon that and really aspire to honor the work ethic that he brought to our family and and the gifts that he gave to me as a result while at the same time you know he he also is a reminder of that balance that i do want to strike that i don't want that to be the the way my days are lived in the way my um my life is lived very good if you had a favorite source to learn and grow a book a podcast an audible something that's impacted you um what was that so people can go check it out oh gosh yeah uh we've got a whole library to go through right now what i am really appreciating is Whitney Johnson's new book smart growth really good um and it just it speaks to the nature of learning and lays out a road map that i think is helpful for anyone at any phase in their career learning anything in general if you could tell uh your 20 year old self one thing what would it be chill out mellow out yeah yeah i mean stop worrying about everything half the things you're worrying about aren't going to happen just you know let it go it's going to be okay and then last question what does success mean to you choice choice control autonomy flexibility volition being able to decide who i get to work with when i work how i work just see the experience of of having choice uh in my life is success