Pehr G. Gyllenhammar, Chairman & CEO Volvo | Reflections on Innovation and Integrity

Welcome to the success story podcast, I'm your host, Scott Clary. On this podcast, I have candid interviews with execs, celebrities, politicians, and other notable figures, all who have achieved success through both wins and losses, to learn more about their life, their ideas, and their insights. I sit down with leaders and mentors and unpack their story to help pass those lessons onto others through both experiences and tactical strategy for business professionals, entrepreneurs, and everyone in between, with a further ado, another episode of the success story podcast. Alright, thanks again for joining me. Today, I am very excited to be sitting down with Pear Yill and Hammer, former longtime CEO Volvo, who has a new book coming out in September called Character Is Destiny, Reflections on Innovation and Integrity from Volvo's longest-serving CEO, a little bit of a background. Pear has a 24-year tenure that was historic groundbreaking in Volvo's history, when he became Volvo's CEO in 1971, he completely redesigned the company's plants, assembly methods to prioritize the health, well-being of the workers, a man way ahead of his time. He addressed the first global environmental convocation in 1972 UN Environmental Conference and made a public commitment to make Volvo more environmentally friendly, and to protest the regime of apartheid. He closed Volvo's Durban plant in South Africa in 1976, one of the first CEOs to divest. In addition to transforming Volvo, Yill and Hammer directly shaped industry in Europe, creating European roundtable and industrialists, which conceived of an implemented major infrastructural improvements, such as the France-England Channel Tunnel, he has also worked with or served on the boards of such institutions as Lazard, Roters, Rothschild, Chase Manhattan Bank, the Aspen Institute, the Rockefeller University, and the London Philharmonic Orchestra. Yill and Hammer's writing has been published on CNN, Business News, Automative News, and many, many more. Thank you so much for sitting down, very, very excited to understand how you became the man you are today. So thank you. Well, you're very welcome, nice to be with you. Oh, no, it's my pleasure, it's my pleasure. As I read these things off over your career, environmental impact, moving away from countries that don't do business properly like you did in South Africa and whatnot, these all seem to be very commonplace now in a lot of organizations fall in line with this type of ideology, very forward-thinking. But you have to remember in 1971, that was not always the case as you were a leader in many of these. But before that, walk me through how you even became the CEO of Volvo and your career, and then we'll go into what you're doing now. Well, it was the chairman of World War at the time who visited me, I lived in Stockholm at that time, and said, could we have a conversation with you, I said, fine? Then he said, without any ado, he said, we would like you to be the CEO, Chief Executive of Volvo. And how about did you fall into that role? How did you handle it? What was your, I guess, your preparation for managing such a large company? Well, I had no preparation, except I was the head of the largest insurance company in the Nordic area. For one year and nine months, I think it was, when they came to say that would you like to join Volvo? And I thought it was so tempting with Volvo as the car and truck manufacturer and aviation and space. So I said, yes, without thinking. Was it difficult to move into a role like that? Did you have struggles, hurdles, or was a lot of it, you were prepared for it? Now I was not prepared for it at all. It was a great surprise, a great surprise, but I think I said, yes, within one hour, while I was still head of Scania, the insurance company, we were the largest insurance company in the Nordic area. So it was very dramatic in my surroundings, not least the chairman of the of Scania, who thought that I was his golden boy, I think, and he lost me very quickly. And as you moved into Volvo, you did a lot of things that I think were ahead of their time. But how did you come to some of these decisions, as I read off your background, divesting from South Africa, closing the Durban plant, prioritizing, and all these different convocations and other campaigns that you did? Where did that come from? Where was that something that you were always championing, or was it just you trying to look ahead of where work and leadership was going at the time? I was very independent, and I had an examination in law studies. I was a candidate of law, and I don't know why. It was just that it was partly liberal, it was partly historical, it was partly with the time, and I studied both in England, and I studied in the United States. And I decided to do the legal studies, and I was terrible at boring, and therefore I did it in three years, instead of the normal five and a half. And after that, I didn't know what to do. I thought earlier that I would like to be an actor, but I discarded that, and came to the insurance company and became, keep you check, one of the youngest in the, but in Europe, really, and then Volvo, where I was also many years, the youngest, because many of my colleagues in the automotive industry and in the aviation and space industry, they were about 50 at the time. So I was seen as very young, which probably was true. And how did you manage that from a leadership perspective, managing all these individuals that were much older than you? Was that difficult? Well, it was difficult, but I was also, I was vigilant, I was fairly tough, so I wanted to make a totally different organization with a delegational responsibility. So eventually I had a headquarters of 100 people, instead of 1200, no 2,200, that the company that I took over had. So I slimmed it down, I made every part of the business, their own company, subsidiary of a mother company, and that changed also the whole organization, because you had to have a chief executive within the group on everyone of these five sections. So it became much more flexible and much more dynamic, and that is what I was looking for. And in one year after I exceeded the chief executive, I also called a council of blue color workers and some white color workers, because the blue color workers, when I moved there, I said, I will see to it that they are the best, and that they have a very good environment, and that is my motto. And we had a council of about 20 people, most of them blue color workers. So that was how I started. I want to understand, because I feel, and correct me if I am wrong, but I feel like a lot of the lessons, so the book is entitled Character is Destiny, which I absolutely love, and it is such a meaningful title, and I am sure there is a lot as to why you called it that. But you also, the subtitle is Reflections on Innovation and Integrity from Volvo's longest serving CEO. And I think that, you know, I, I'm realizing this as we speak, like a lot of the lessons that you implemented as CEO of Volvo, I think are, these are the lessons that are discussed in the book. Correct. I want to draw that parallel. Yes. Correct. Good. So as you make these changes to Volvo, as you make it more agile, more lean, you put together a council of, of blue color workers, what, what are the results that you see, or rather, you can even speak about it in the reference to your book. Let's speak about how the book is, is divided and broken down, and maybe that will give a little bit more structure for, for some of the things that we can chat about, too. Well, you go ahead, you came to work. No, that's fair. So as some of these come out, as, as you start building up some of these actual processes and programs, what is the result that you see when you put you in the United Blue Color Workers? Is this something, and I want to put it in perspective for today's listener, for today's reader, was this a commonplace in, in your time, or was this groundbreaking? Well, groundbreaking, because the automotive industry around the world in the United States in Europe and, you know, England, France and Germany, and you had the assembly line. Yeah. I started a plant, a new plant, because we needed more capacity, that had no assembly line. It had assembly, but it didn't have a assembly line, so it was not moving. The blue color workers didn't have to move with the assembly line. They could stay, and they could do their mandate, which was at least 20 minutes, were a team of 9 to 10. And that made it more interesting for them. It was more demanding. They put together part of a car and the engine and the transmission and the whole system. And there were about three, three to four teams who could do the whole car. And that was new new, and I had interest from Peter from outside the Sweden at the time. Our biggest market was already in the United States. And when we opened the plant, Henry Ford asked if he could come and visit, and he did. And the head of the auto workers union, he also came and wanted to see it. So I had those two at the same time. And also the prime minister of Sweden, who almost came in the freddo, and he's rather too giant. Yeah. That was an interesting start. And then we had to close the plant for visitors, because there were too many who wanted to come from a different part of the world. But the plant was successful. It took probably about a year to make it absolutely run in. But then it worked extremely well. And it had platforms that moved through electric engines and just came up to the team that was going to do the work that and the shift was about 20 minutes for each team. That's incredible, because as you mentioned, Henry Ford, who is thought of as almost one of the revolutionaries in the automation process in the assembly line. And this is taking it to another level, and even just having that kind of observance of what you're doing as a younger CEO, that's probably very, very stressful. But I appreciate that a lot. I can only imagine, because these are, you know, when you say a name like that, I think it shows the impact of what you were actually bringing to Volvo. So you're making a ton of changes. You're making socially conscious changes. You're making innovative changes. How can you make these changes without hurting profits, scaring off shareholders or stakeholders? How could you do it then? How can you do it now? Well, how could I do it then? It takes a bit of imagination. It takes a bit of freedom in sort. And still paying consideration to the people in the company. And I think the blue color workers were extremely satisfied after a couple of months when they knew the rhythm and how to manage it. And there was so much attention to what we did, that that became a worldwide story within a couple of months. And then as that becomes a worldwide story and it starts to work, is that when you gain a little bit more trust in the stakeholders, in the financiers, in whoever, in the customers, you know, everybody who could be a naysayer in innovation. Is that how it started? Well, I think that took quite some time. Of course, I think that people, also my countryman, who is a very small market, the Swedish market or the Nordic market, but they were suspicious. And they thought that it was strange that you could change a mode and the way of building cars, the way we did. So there was quite a lot of skepticism. You find that there are lessons that businesses and organizations can learn from to perhaps eliminate some of that skepticism with innovation now, because as I look, you know, as I go through your book, there's several parts, there's communication, there's innovation, there's all these different things that are very good leadership qualities that I think that putting words in your mouth. These are things that we should look for in organizations, you know, and these are things that leaders of organizations should keep top of mind. So were there things that you learned out from being socially conscious and innovative that other people should sort of take heat of? Well, and they didn't, because in the United States, for example, I think that the automotive industry, for example, is still more or less the same as it was in the 1930s and 1940s. And very little has changed, and it must be very monotonous for the blue-collar workers, because they have perhaps 60 seconds or 90 seconds to do one detailed thing, like a bolt or whatever. And it doesn't give them any inspiration, it doesn't give them any knowledge, and no non-know-how on how a car is built. Of course, I know if they've been there a couple of years, but you know, also they're physically, it is very difficult, particularly for women to use man's tools. So I changed all the tools, so there were tools for women and their hands and for the man, and like through a magic change, all their problems with health disappeared, the women, because they had tools made for women's hands. So that was in itself a revolution. You could have females that didn't have to report themselves suffering, so they don't disappear. So that was one of the good things. And the other thing was that quality improved, because you didn't have to intervene all the time to improve quality. So all the other plants in the system of Volvo, whether it was engine plant, transmission plant, rear axles, front axles, whatever it was, you could benefit from the system that we had at the Karma plant. And all the factories were gradually changed to this type of system. And as you make this change, one point that I saw that I really enjoyed that you made that differentiation, to move shareholder capitalism, to stakeholder capitalism. What does that mean exactly? And how can we accomplish that? It means that if you look at some of the systems that are more or less classic now or old fashioned, it was all for the shareholders and tell the good things for the staff. But in my case, I think that shareholders is one thing. And they should understand that there are limits to how much you can distribute. First of all, because you need capital to invest and reinvest. And secondly, because there are other interest groups, there are very important. And that's the staff, the labor. It's the society where you're working. It's taxpayers, money, part of it that your profit goes to. So you have to be much more diverse than just think of the shareholders and the chief executives. And I must say within brackets there that I am shocked by the salaries that chief executives get in the United States. I think it's a good test. And if they leave after five years, they get a bonus, even if they're bad or if they're good, they get a bonus. And the bonus is a few times more than their annual salary. So I find that not acceptable because I think that there are more things to do if you have a well functioning or even badly functioning organization that you have to distribute the profits. And that the sky high CEO pay golden parachutes when when they leave an organization that extra bonus is that not something and excuse my naivety, I'm looking at it from a lens of North America. That's not something that you see as much in Europe or is it still prevalent? Well, it is prevalent in the United States. So if you compare to salaries, for example, in Europe or perhaps in Japan, I don't know Japan that well. I've been there many times, but I don't know exactly what they say and what they mean. But in most of Europe, the salaries and remuneration which these executives are more modest, quite different from in the United States. But in Europe, they've also increased a lot, a bit inspired by the United States. And I think when you've been five years in a company, you have not learned very much about that company, you haven't contributed very much. And when you are five plus, you get a very high salary even if you failed completely. Now these are all things. I love the direction this is going. So socially conscious companies, moving shareholder capitalism to stakeholder capitalism, even making sure that CEO pay that executive pay. These are all great leadership lessons, but it's hard to implement them. Yes, it is. Outside of a complete cultural change, how do you do, and I don't even know if there is a correct answer, I think somebody would have thought through it, but what's your opinion on how you actually revolutionize the workforce in a positive way? Well, people around me were very surprised that I devoted so much time to the blue color work, but I thought from the first hour that I came to Volga that they are the core of the company. If we can't have a blue color force that is both women and men and adapted tools adapted to how they could work better, more smoothly, less damage and less injuries, that would be great. So I got a very close relationship with them. I remember when I first visited the biggest plant in where we were based. And I came down in a suit and a tie, and the head of the plant said to me, could you take off the tie, sir? I said, why would I take off the tie? He said, you know, the workers here, they don't like people with tie. I said, I don't care. I don't care. And they will not care about me when they see me. So I went in and there was a lot of curiosity when they had the new very head of the company. And after a year or so, and I visited all our plants as I went around the world and always had the suit that I usually had and tie. And I didn't have to take my tie off just to go for 45 minutes in per plant. So they accepted that. And they, after a couple of years, I had approval ratings because we also measured approval ratings from different parts of the world and different parts of the company. And I got the sky high after a couple of years, approval rating from the blue color workers. I think it goes without saying it's because you focus on building that relationship with them. It's something you were doing in the 70s and it's something the company still missed the mark on today. Probably less. Yeah, definitely do. Now, another, another model you speak about is the ESG environmental, social and governance investing model. Is that a way to make companies more in line with these values that you brought into Volvo in the 70s? I didn't quite understand the term there. Okay. So the ESG model, environmental, social and governance investing model. So okay. Well, I have, I've seen that, but I've seen it later than I started it because I think that has been developed and there's so, so, so, so many vocabularies around industry. Sorry. I know my mind. No, no, I'm, I'm sorry. I, excuse, excuse myself when I say that to you, but I, I don't try to get some of these terms. And I was extremely interested in the environment. And I can tell you one little anecdote that when, when, when, when we came with a, my first new model, which was looked like the previous one, but was totally different inside and the, the whole driveline was different. And I was, there was a new authority in the United States, 1974, about the way that you marketed your cars. And they sent a demand to the company and said that we would like, we would like the, you to come over and explain how you can have, you can have, you know, a language where you say that in Sweden, cars are so and so. So normally, a company of any size says, we'll send someone over a lawyer or someone in, in, in, in, in, in the country itself. And I got, I got so upset over this reproach from a new authority. So I took a plane the next day to Washington. And then before I did, I asked the, the, the executive of, of that agency that was new and just created, I said, I'm coming myself, am I welcome? And he, he was so surprised, he said, oh, you, you, you, you, you are the chief executive. I said, yes, that's why I'm coming. So I met him in his office, which was, you know, an office in Washington that was fairly, fairly spacious. And I was upset when I came in. So I, instead of being, well, I was polite when I said hello, but, but, but then I also, you know, threw myself at him, I said, I don't understand what this is. And, and I said, I, I think that it's so important for me and for all my employees to understand what you are after here. And he said, Mr, you know, come to the window here. So I came to the window and he said, can you, this is the big parking space. Can you see that row? I said, yes. And he said, can you see my car? And he, he illustrated the color. And then I said, that's my goal, but, isn't that quite something? It is. I like that a lot. And, and, and then he threw cans and he said, lovely to see you. You are one of the first visitors, but you are definitely the first important visitor that I've had. Otherwise, they come, you know, with, you know, from their legal department. I like that. And that, that was all just highlighting the importance of, of the environmental focus on, on how you marketed, how you, how you built out the brand. Yeah. Yeah. Um, the other thing that I, I really wanted to understand and then I'm going to give you some, if there's anything else that I miss, what is one point that you've, you've made is, is short termism, short termism, so short sightedness, incorporate governance and then it's impact on income equal, income inequality. Yeah. How does, how do you see us fixing that piece and what is that piece about? I think it is really more than just rules and, and, and regulations and paragraphs. It is your view of the whole corporation, the entire corporation, who is interested to work there, who is interested to improve, who is interested to be a very good person with customers and understand the role of customers, not only that you have to sell it, but that you have to maintain it, the quality, the environmental care, all those things are one whole thing and one whole system. And it, that was also the part of when we came into the, we, we, we made the engines for the aircraft, fighter aircraft and attack aircraft and that was partly exported. And then we came to be a partner in the European space agency and our spacecraft, we, we lifted off the ramp, we lifted with our base, the whole, the whole skyrocket. So, we had so many, many interest and then we had marine engines as well, but, but my whole world, what I try to inspire to my, my, you know, my, my blue color workers, the what color workers and the, the management is how we should think. And if they, if they couldn't accept it, fine, then I would say goodbye to them, but most of them would accept it and they were proud of it. So that was one piece of the business. It's just, it's just, it seems, it's again, the one, the one driving point that really is hitting me as I go through this is these things all make so much sense. They make, it's common sense, focus on long term, it's common sense to focus and be socially conscious, a few other things, like, but it's just, it's about doing, right? It's about actually acting on this now, I have, I have a couple more questions that I like to ask, sort of rapid fire about your career, but before, before I get into that, is there anything that I didn't ask about the book or about the reflections that you, that you spoke on in the book that you wanted to touch on? Now I can just perhaps mention a few of the periods in my life where, where I did different things. So after, after 20, 3, 24 years at Volvo, I was head of Volvo all the time. I left because first of all, I thought it was time and secondly, I had other possible potential successors that I would let come through. So I moved and I had, first of all, a period where when I thought that we should have better environmentally friendly vehicles, I organized a club that was called the, the club of the 17th of the 17th. So it's like the, like the council around Prince King Arthur's court from the middles, from the 14th to 15th century, so we were 17 and we were only industrialists and we were not anything else. And the 17 we started and my, my proposal was that we should make an environmentally friendly place of Europe. So I met, I met with leaders of governments. I was a chairman of the club. I met with President Mitterrand, who was the President of France for two periods. And with his finance minister, who became the head of the European Union, the Chief Executive of the European Union. And I had to talk to these people and also the German Chancellor and others to get their attention to what we would like to do, because otherwise it would be a total bureaucracy. And one thing that was quite amazing is that I, I met President Mitterrand and I met him at a little private dinner with one of his associates. And he was eating his oysters and I was telling him what I wanted him to know. And I said, Monsieur le President, I said, you are going to miss, miss a statue within three days or two days. And I have a message for you to give her, namely, propose to her a tunnel under the English Channel, not a bridge but a tunnel. He came back and I got a telephone call four days later. It'd been only two days with her. And he said, it's done. We have agreed to have that channel tunnel made. And I think that was quite sensational. I think that, well, that's, I think that's a huge, that's a huge point in, in your, in your life. And the fact that, yeah, and then also we, we, we, we, we organized for a second tunnel under the out the head one, the first tunnel under the Pyrenees between France and Spain. And partly new motorways around Europe. And the, the high speed trains, the French were the best. And they, they had a network over most of Europe when, when I left the, the round table of European industries. Very impressive. And, and what do you, what do you work on now? What's your current focus? Well, my current focus is, first of all, I am, I'm an advisor to the chairman of Thompson Reuters. You know, Reuters was bought by Thompson's in Canada and Thompson Reuters is there. And I was, I was the chairman of the founder share company of Reuters for 15 years, which is the longest and anyone, anyone has served, because that was asked to come to Reuters when they, when they listed their shares. So they said, we need three new independent directors, one American, one English and one European. How was the European? And the, the, the, the American was the head of city court. Now, as, you know, as this book comes out, is there anything else that you've had like a, such an impressive life and a very impressive resume? What else do you want to do? Or is this? Well, I will, I will die fairly soon, I suppose. But, oh, no, don't say that. Don't say what, what I, what I did after Volvo and, and the other things I've done is, I was asked by the chairman of a British insurance company called commercial union, if I wanted to be the chairman. And then I had moved, you know, I moved, moved away from, from Volvo. And, and I said yes. And then when I looked at it, I said, it's fairly small company. Will it be possible to, to compete in, in, in, in the international world? And it smiled a little bit. He said, he's gone, it's gone fairly well. But I merged that company, commercial union, within six months, with a, a, a, Mitch, a bigger company called General Accident, which was Scottish. And that merger came to fruition without any premium, you know, just the value they had on the stock exchange. And then the third one I acquired within two, two years later. And that, that became the biggest insurance company in the United Kingdom. And that was created in, in three years. Very impressive, very impressive. You don't stop, you never retire, you just keep going. Very good. All right, so let me, let me ask a couple insights from your life. And they have to, you know, whatever, whatever you feel comfortable with. What advice would you give somebody who's younger in their career, trying to pursue something similar to yours? I would say that if they are totally fresh in mind, they should be without partisans, partisans weaknesses, they should have integrity, independence, freedom from bias. They should be, you know, rid of a lot of sanctions that they may have had from other parties in their education. And that to be neutral and unbiased is a very good thing. And it makes you, makes you much more open minded. Agreed. Very, very much agreed. I think that's one of the issues that we're seeing with a lot of individuals right now. It's so polarized. Where do you go to learn and stay on top of what's relevant? Is there a resource, a person? Now, it's not a resource or person, but I have a couple of long-term threats. For example, David Rockefeller, he came the year that I became head of law, he asked if he could see me. And he came literally four weeks after I had started as my career as TV executive. And then he remained a friend until he passed away when 101 years old a couple of years ago. And then I met Henry Kissinger when I was at Aspen Institute where I tried to make peace between the Middle Eastern states, which was quite an interesting travel. You know what Aspen Institute is? When the Aspen Institute, no, I do know Mr. Kissinger though, but I don't know the Aspen Institute. What is that? The Aspen Institute was an institute that was founded I think in the 60s and was very much based in California and San Francisco. A leadership appeared that made it a more or less global force, first global in the United States, and then almost global around the world. And I was invited once to that. There I met Henry Kissinger first time. I understand, okay, that makes sense. So that's okay, don't you? And then they said because there were top people that came to the Aspen Institute, which was in Colorado at the time. At the Colorado. That's why it's called Aspen Institute. And they said, well, Perry Lamar, we would like you to share this group. How many people would you like to have? I said, no one. They said no one. I said, I think it's better alone and with one deputy because coming a group, it's like it's like an adventure or it's like diplomats. And I don't like it. I like to talk to the leaders directly. So I met with Anbar Sadat, the head of Egypt at the time and who was killed. And I visited Israel. I visited Jordan. And I flew with a private plane from Jerusalem to Amang, which was forbidden. And I had to have permit from the embassies or the consulin in Jerusalem and the king of Jordan. It took 10 minutes to fly. So it's just next door to Jerusalem. But anyway, and then I met with Arifat, and then I met with the prime minister in Israel. And we had a very good package when I came back from the Middle East to New York and Taspin Institute. Because I thought it was quite remarkable. And the problem was that Carter was the president. And he had only one term. And in December, it was clear that he was going to be succeeded by Ronald Reagan, who knew nothing about politics. And when this was presented to him. And his deputy, not deputy, but foreign secretary, Alexander Hague, who was like a tinselier, a puppet. And very, very difficult to talk to. And he was just engaged with Reagan. And he was the infamous person who when Reagan was fraught, he said, I'm now in charge and moved into the White House. And that was a serious mistake because it was a vice president who had done it. And that was partly the end of it. But also Reagan, who had no experience and so foreign, foreign office and foreign services and international diplomacy. He wouldn't even listen to this. He thought it was something so strange to him that he wouldn't deal with it. That's a very interesting story. Very, very interesting story. Yeah. Very good. What was I going to say? What would be a lesson that you would tell your younger self? Well, a lesson I would tell my younger self is not to give a specific advice on anything. But be open-minded, have integrity, as freedom from bias, and try to be a very decent person. And take real care about the people you have in your employer, if you have anyone in your employer. Be open-minded, you can be sharp, you can be tough, but you have to be absolutely honest. Fair and generous. Very good. And what's one way that you think that we can all make the world a slightly better place? Well, I think it's late now to make it a better place because the environment is such a disaster. And you have disasters everywhere. I mean, the oceans are dirty and the species and the world who grow 70% are already gone, destroyed completely. So there's 30% left. And so it's really a world that we have destroyed gradually and violently when modern technology has come. And it's very late. So that is one thing to watch. The other thing to watch is because this is a new virus, the coronavirus, because this is a plague of some sort. And if you look at how the United States has behaved under Trump, I mean, it's a total scandal. And he says, we have had made more testing of patients than anyone else in the world, which is total nonsense. I mean, he lies about everything. So how he does with the United States and really the Western world is a disaster. So I think that first of all, one has to understand where these plagues come from and how you deal with it. And that will take a bit of time and then learn from it. And then also understand how fragile the world is because the North Pole now, the ice is melting. Very briskly now. It hasn't come to untalk this yet, but it will come. So if I would be born again, now, I would really devote quite a lot of energy to those. That's wise words. And you know, you've done so much with your life. It's something that behooves us all to sort of take a second look at who are younger or in our careers right before it's too late. And the last question before I get some places to go and get the book and find out more about what you're working on now, what does success mean for you? Success means many different things, but the most important thing is that the people I serve and the people I work with feel that they get something. Even if it is against them, you know, the wind blows the other direction, then they have the faith to believe and to stand by and to work and do good things. Irrespective of how it feels and that there is a good intention behind everything they are asked to do or hoping to do. So I think that's the most important and integrity and independence, I think, are very valuable and freedom from bias. If you have those three, you will do well. And lastly, most important, where do people connect with you? Website, is there Amazon for the book, of course, and when does that release? I think it's about to be released. Let me just take a look here. For the website, you can go to pairelandhammer.com, so that's an easy one. Yes, and everything is there. And then LinkedIn as well, LinkedIn.com for pairelandhammer. And then I think that the book will obviously be on the website, but it will also be on Amazon. So it's coming out September so soon, you're about a month away. But the character is destiny, reflections on innovation and integrity from Volvo's longest serving CEO. So I'll link that in the comments so people can go find all the links. But that's all I have. Is that enough for you? It's perfect. It was incredible. Thank you so much. I appreciate your time. Well, you're very welcome and we're good to talk to you. That's all for today. Thanks again for joining me on another episode of the success story podcast. You can download or stream this podcast wherever podcasts are available, including iTunes, Spotify, Google, Stitcher, iHeartRadio, and many others. You can also watch this podcast on YouTube. If you haven't already, please subscribe and share this podcast with your friends, family, co-workers, and peers. Please leave us a rating on iTunes. 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