Ian Clifford - Director, CEO & Founder of FuelPositive | Clean and Sustainable Carbon-Free Fuel

Welcome to success story the most useful podcasts in the world. I'm your host, Scott D. Clary. The success story podcast is part of the blue wire podcast network as well as the HubSpot podcast network, which has other great podcasts like social light hosted by Steph Taylor. Social light discusses all things online marketing Steph Taylor answers all your business marketing questions. She deep dies into the nitty gritty of online marketing content marketing social media marketing marketing strategy for business owners. If any of these topics resonate with you, you're going to love the show. You'll learn things like how to scale your brand on various different social media platforms, some of the biggest mistakes you can make with your launch of a new product or service. The importance of nurturing and engaging your audience consistently, the importance of having your audience fully understand the problem you're trying to solve and why it's important to solve right now as well as why growing audiences across all social platforms feels so hard in 2022. You can go listen to social light wherever you get your podcasts or at the HubSpot podcast network at HubSpot.com slash podcast network. My guest is Ian Clifford. He is a director CEO and founder of Fuel Positive Corp. He has over 25 years of experience in technology and marketing. He has successfully led the company to global brand recognition through their unique energy solutions since 2006. Ian has raised over 50 million dollars in equity financing for fuel positive. He also previous to fuel positive co founded digit interactive a full service internet marketing company serving fortune 500 clients, which he exited and sold. Now what he's doing at fuel positive is incredible fuel positive is a Canadian growth state technology company making their name known because of their commitment to providing commercially viable and sustainable clean energy and fossil fuel alternatives. So they focus on technologies that are clean economical and build on what's easily in place the infrastructure that's already in place they've created green ammonia they've created environmentally friendly way to create ammonia as an alternative to fossil fuel. Fuel positive will affect the course of climate change through the practical solutions are implementing green ammonia and other solutions while we spoke about Ian's origin store we spoke about his transition from photographer to tech CEO and how he got behind. Both the EV movement when he first built and sold a company that created electric vehicles way before Tesla all the way through to fuel positive and what he's doing right now what he's been doing for the past past several years. So he spoke about his inspiration as well as how to build a business in a space that is inundated with legacy infrastructure legacy products and how he manages to basically create an industry of blue ocean so to speak. So we spoke about some of the lessons that he's learned with fuel positive how he's taking it to market how he is lobbying and working with government how he's working with farmers how he's marketing it through word of mouth to basically change and shift course correct climate change through some of these practical solutions. And then ultimately how he built a team around such an innovative company that makes sure that the company the vision and the mission is all successful so let's jump right into it. This is Ian Clifford director CEO founder of fuel positive court. Well you can go way way back in my life and look at a pretty varied path but one thing that's remained really consistent for me is is a strong sense of environmentalism a real appreciation for preserving this incredible planet that we've been destroying now profoundly for the last century. And realizing that things you know have to change and if they don't change now as the youngest generation is telling us we're leaving a disaster for for future generations and so it's an imperative it's an absolute imperative so I mean I can trace it back. You know during high school and the end of high school I was very interested in photography and I was really fortunate I met one of Ansel Adams. He assistance back then and he invited me out to Yosemite to work with Ansel Adams when I was about 17 18 years old and study with him and just learn about this incredibly rich history of preservation like this what Ansel was beyond anything else he was an archivist like he was taking photographs of landscapes and and and nature that that in many cases doesn't exist anymore those views are gone and and it created an appreciation for how important it is to preserve and and better our environment globally. So and and that can start and you know people say well it's so big I can't do anything my attitude is you know every little thing that you can do makes a difference and if we have billions and billions of people pushing towards change pushing towards environmental change it's going to happen I mean it just has to happen whether governments are doing it or not. People can make things happen and that was that was a real lesson that I learned from Ansel and you know he started he was one of the co-founders at the Sierra Club they were looking at you know how did they preserve these incredible landscapes for future generations and and of course for wildlife and and floor and fun across the spectrum so and that really stuck with me so the so my career my career really started as a photographer I was studying photography and Halifax at Nova Scotia College of Art and Design another real appreciation of nature because you know the East Coast was was at that time very unspoiled. There was a incredible tracks of nature and and I spent a lot of time doing landscape photography looking at looking at again looking at landscapes that were changing and contrasting those to urban development which was you know kind of out of control you know in and that was I was seeing that everywhere that I went in the world. There was just this sense that we just had to build and build and build and expand and expand and expand and create massive infrastructure as opposed to simplifying things so so that really started me on on the path to where I am now it's taken a number of twists and turns along the way but but that certainly is the basis of what inspires me today. I was going to say I love the love the I love the origin story I love I love what what drives people and it's interesting so you were so you you got a photography and when did you when did you pivot that because you you're capturing nature and you're capturing you're capturing the state of the world. You're an aesthetic and an artistic lens but when did you decide hey this is too easy I want to start building companies I want to start doing something that is going to be the Wild West I have to figure out how to do it I have to build this entire new industry it's not like your traditional entrepreneur where you know you're just taking a new product to market and you've already seen it done you are in five or six iterations of that product you're doing something. So why did you decide to build something that was never really I'm assuming when this started never been done before nothing like it existed and what was what was your mindset there and why did you why did you take that first step. Well it went through a number of different transitions and I was always kind of a little a few steps ahead in terms of what was trending so my first big pivot was to move from sort of traditional photography into digital photography and that was before anyone was even considering. I mean it was before everybody was a photographer on their cell phone so on there or whatever mobile device they were using so I was I was already looking at a digital world and looking at things differently from that perspective and then early in the 90s with the sort of the this little kind of hint of the internet. Myself and several partners started an internet marketing company which was one of the first in Canada we built some of the first commercial websites in Canada so there was a real just sort of looking at thing where things were going has always been a big part of my interest. So we built that company we sold it back in 2000 to Quebec core kind of at the height of the markets and and I really at that point was re-evaluating what I wanted to do next and interesting there had a fascination with electric cars for a long long time. So in 2001 I started an electric car company in Canada it's called Zen motor company and we built neighborhood electric vehicles we sold about a thousand of them in North America made us one of the biggest electric car companies in the world at the time. Again we were totally ahead of the curve so the adoption just wasn't there but I became really interested in energy storage and energy battery technology but also energy generally and what sustainable with sustainable production and how to shift our concept of what energy is on a global on a global scale. And that evolved to a battery technology that we are still commercializing actually based based in Texas interestingly so that's a project that's still very much very much active we're working with a group associated with NASA on that project but about a year and a half ago I became really interested in the idea of replacing fossil fuels. It's one thing battery electric is interesting and battery electric is scalable to an extent but there's a lot of issues around energy storage to begin with and there's a lot of issues around lithium and and all the other the elements that go into battery technology today it's it's high as a huge environmental footprint it doesn't have the energy density of fossil fuels. So I thought what can we look at that will that will actually in the near term be viable as a replacement for fossil fuels so I was introduced to to a scientist and his team at Ontario Technology University this was about 18 months ago who were developing a green ammonia system. And I really did at the time didn't know a lot about ammonia I didn't I might my experience with ammonia was like most of us kind of you know that weird smell at the skating ring. With a refrigeration system that's not working properly. So I didn't understand the scope and learned very very quickly that that ammonia as a technology as a material has been around for a century 80% of it is used in agriculture as a fertilizer and the industry that manufactures ammonia and has for the last century is one of the dirtiest industries on the planet in the sense of it from an emissions perspective. To produce a unit of ammonia in traditional processes is one of the most carbon intense manufacturing processes on the planet. So the idea that you could change that and and create a truly green alternative to the way that something's been done for a century was a great interest to me. And Dr Abraham Dinser and his team were you know we're extremely forthcoming when it came to really educating us in terms of what the viability was. So that got us really interested we did a tremendous amount of due diligence on the technology April of 2021 we entered into a purchase agreement with Dr. Dinser and his team to purchase the intellectual property. And and since then we've been commercializing it so this is a relatively new endeavor but we've got up to speed in an incredible pace over the last over the last 12 months. Interestingly it's almost to the day that we did our name change from the previous company named to fuel positive so it's really really new moving quick it's moving like super super quick. Now now T something like to provide some context because of course like you just mentioned in your handips that right nobody really thinks of ammonia in the sense of this is going to be the future fuel source that's going to power anything I don't think people have that concept. Most people have the concept of okay well let's get it let's get more EVs on the road and that's a great step. And why is you just mentioned a few things like and I'm not going to I'm not going to try and reiterate because I'm going to miss I'm going to miss speak but why is there such a focus on battery and battery battery technology for certain carbon. And that's what people are focused on right now and there seems to be a wave of EV and you have Rivian and you have Tesla and you have all these other EV companies and now you have these government mandates that are focused on EVs. So it seems like the rest of the world is focused on the thing that you were doing several years ago that you found wasn't actually a solution to any sort of global warming carbon emissions problem. So what there's a disconnect there. Yeah and I guess I mean you have to look at it from a number of perspectives. The reason EVs are viable of course is that there's infrastructure there's a you can charge you can charge a vehicle. We've all you know we've all got outlets in our houses we've all for the most part have access to higher voltage systems for recharging and that sort of thing. Electricity is ubiquitous it's you know in most in most in many cultures not but again not around the world. So and interestingly if you look at the numbers of vehicles electric vehicles that are sold on an annual basis today it's still a draw in the bucket in terms of the number of vehicles that are produced and sold around the world. Not to mention the fact that there's you know a couple of billion internal combustion vehicles on the road today around the world spewing out spewing out emissions green house gas emissions that are destroying the environment around the world. So those have to be dealt with as well. The thing that isn't again is an understand understood about ammonia is historically it has been used as a fossil fuel replacement. So there's many examples during the second world war for instance where fossil fuel there were extensive fossil fuel shortages. And engineers understood that in a internal combustion engine the conversion to burn pure ammonia is relatively straightforward it's it's not unlike a conversion to burn propane or natural gas for instance. So again it's it's highly viable but but and then subsequent to that NASA. It was utilizing pure ammonia and oxygen as a as a jet fuel and that's our last sort of fastest jets in the world where we're running on ammonia. But the reason it never had any widespread widespread penetration was because you were kind of replacing apples and apples because the emissions to produce. So ammonia was there was no advantage in that context but with the advent of green ammonia you change the whole paradigm changes right and and the the the ease of conversion becomes very very very significant as a consideration. It's interesting because I mean we have a lot of conversations going on at different levels within government and an advocacy groups and and the awareness is growing on a daily basis. I mean the rest of this week we've got meetings with with various various agencies within the Canadian government who are really serious about understanding the viability of this. So it's it's going to happen and it's happening I mean it's you know I said we started this in seriously about a year ago it is it's break neck right now I mean we we can't grow this company fast enough to keep up with the interest. So I was going to say because that's so now you because you found the way to to produce this in a much cleaner way that's that's the IP that's like the secret sauce behind the company and that's what was stopping ammonia from being adopted okay so this makes a lot of sense now so yes of course we there was a lot of infrastructure to support. Evie but of course now you have the now you have the production that can create ammonia with without much of a negative impact so then this can then you start to lobby government then now all of a sudden the conversation evolves around looking at alternative fossil fuels and that's when you have vehicles that could use. Green amount will ammonia as a fuel source yeah okay understood very exciting so you're so you don't you don't you don't. You don't make it easy on yourself either like you you jump into stuff like like right at the like like that's like bleeding as it's stuff that's like you need to you need to build the production the production line you have to actually lobby the government and then this you're creating your own market for this as you go. Well you know for us we're taking more of a Tesla model approach to this because historically you know what happens and what very often happens is you know you'll get entrepreneurs with really great ideas they'll bring the idea forward but they won't have a commercial plan right they won't. See that a lot yeah and I've seen it a lot and I've done it you know I've learned from experience that you know in order to to make a great idea stick you've got to figure out how to manufacture it and manufacture it efficiently and quickly and with proper distribution and proper support so that's a big part of our our build of this company is around around those capabilities and knowing that we can scale this incredibly rapidly. And at a global scale so one of the big differences to understand in how we're doing things as opposed to how the industry has historically done things gray ammonia or dirty ammonia has always been produced sort of at a refinery scale production right so. So the ammonia industry sort of has been tied to the oil and gas industry for the last century because they you know their ammonia production has been entirely dependent on fossil fuel over the last century our systems are modular and scalable they're small they're intended to be deployed with end users as opposed to mass centralized production and distribution of green ammonia. So what we're doing is giving initially farmers the opportunity to have a fuel positive system on their farm utilizing renewable energy it could be solar on the farm it could be they could be on a on a renewable grid and Manitoba is a great example it's it's that it's all. Carbon free electricity and very very low cost they can produce them and utilizing a fuel positive system using using electricity water and air they can produce all of the and hydros ammonia they need for fertilizer. They can use they can produce enough to use for grain drying so they can replace fossil fuels for grind drying crops and they can convert their tractors and combines and other implements to run on the ammonia that they're producing so a farmer who was who was an absolute hostage of supply chain and cost variability like insane cost variability we're talking about. In Manitoba farmer who was paying $600 a ton for in hydros ammonia six months ago was paying $1,200 a ton today I mean these are insane and same with fossil fuel costs right and supply so the supply chains are all screwed up so what we're doing is it's it's not only revolutionary from a production perspective but it also creates. This independence for the end user right so they're they're off grid essentially they're they're able to produce everything they need to grow crops to produce to run their equipment and so on and that's. I mean you can imagine the response that we're getting in terms of interest because I mean farmers are one of the most vulnerable it's one of the most vulnerable professions on the planet not only is it the weather but it's everything else in the supply chain you're you're. You're deeply affected by so what we're doing is we're saying no you don't need that supply chain you you have the skill you know how to work with this material we can we can make it for you on site where you need it and you can control your costs and you can control your supply and and and be remarkably independent and so we've got we've got a number of farmers lined up. Throughout 2022 for pilot projects so we've got we're building systems now that will be deployed throughout throughout 2022 and you know the proof is in the delivery and the proof is in the system working on farm and that's where we're starting because that's. And that's I just want to take a second and thank the sponsor of today's episode HubSpot now running your own business means uncertainty is everywhere so wouldn't it be nice to have a CRM platform that just works a CRM platform that helps you provide a seamless connected best in class customer experience for too long businesses have had to deal with managing point solutions that slow down their teams frustrate customers and hit them with hidden fees Hubspots all in one CRM platform as everything. Everything you need to do business no hidden fees included with a connected platform that's easy to implement and use your teams have all the tools and data they need to spend more time on what matters most creating remarkable customer experiences learn how HubSpot can help your business grow better at HubSpot.com That's the take the market so I was going to that was going to be my question it's how do you how do you actually market and sell something that nobody has a concept of so you're working with you're working with farmers first you're eliminating any sort of variability of at least from from a fuel perspective for them and that would be like your proof of concept and then after you work with these farmers you you how do you sort of blow this up on a global level how do you start to approach new partners. So when I always think of blue ocean I come from a software background so if my questions aren't that intelligent regarding like fuel and and fuel substitution I apologize but I'm trying to I'm trying to navigate as best I can. It's a totally it's an incredible concept but in a like if you take it back to like a blue ocean strategy from a software perspective you look at. Benny off and sales force and when he was disrupting like the oracles and the sys goes and he was creating the concept of cloud and then once he created the concept of cloud computing then he conveniently slotted a product into that which was you know salesforce calm and that was that was a true blue ocean because at that point there wasn't really the concept of cloud everybody had like a server sitting in their office somewhere as opposed to using any sort of host of technology so that was one way that I've seen and actually the that that story that used case in the book behind. We play bigger and I love that story but in a blue ocean like this where this has been ammonia has been an option but it was never a proper alternative because of the manufacturing process. How do you how do you combine a sales and marketing strategy to take this to market to shift people's perspective of what they used to know about ammonia so that you can eventually because any sort of fuel any sort of fuel company has to at some point become become the become the de facto you have to become the de facto source that people always look to because that would be that like in terms of your vision as a founder that's the way you're going to have the biggest positive impact. But that takes a lot of education takes a lot of in my opinion would take time so how do you actually bring this to market so that you do get that that mass adoption of ammonia. Yeah so no it's a fundamental question so we start in agriculture the reason is 80% of ammonia is utilized in agriculture globally farmers understand how to work with it they know the economics they know the they know that any of the challenges to to utilization so there they are the immediate market and they're huge I mean it's you know for us to keep up for us to keep up with just the 5% compound annual growth rate within gray the gray ammonia industry we'd have to produce 100,000 systems a year like and distribute those that's just to make that's just to make up for for the growth in the existing market so that's huge. And it's a it's an extremely network industry in the sense that farmers really talk to each other take care of each other are I mean it's an incredible social network so our expectation is that as these systems go out into there into that market it will spread like you know I'm not going to say wildfire because that's a horrible analogy. That's not a great analogy but I. The idea of being that it'll spread it'll and I'm not going to use viral either you know I'm. What is our what's happened to our language but you understand what I'm saying that the word of mouth in terms of understanding the viability and importance of this is key. And at the same time we are working on you know very relevant partnerships as it relates to internal combustion and that's both new engine manufacturing and conversion of existing internal combustion engines again well understood. You know not rocket science emissions can be absolutely controlled and and and to the point where you know the water vapor becomes your only emission if if combustion is proper in the system so. The that then becomes the part of the sorry the part of it that is is truly revolutionary here again is the decentralized nature so you can take for example you can take a trucking a long haul trucking company right so they've got fuel depots across the nation. And their trucks run a regular schedule there is no reason why those those company like that wouldn't have a fuel positive system at every single depot they'd have wind and solar generation they're producing their own fossil few carbon free fuel in in green ammonia and refueling their trucks that's that's one example. Again the idea that this becomes such a widespread decentralized solution that that provides for that independence and I think this is something that we've learned we've learned this through the pandemic in the sense that we are so vulnerable to supply chain around the world obviously. But also you know pricing and supply is controlled by you know conglomerate type companies that you know that aren't looking out for you and I they're looking out for their you know for the interests of their shareholders in a way that is not sustainable going into you know going into this. The next number of years and and the next century ahead of us we we have got to figure out really intelligent ways of moving things down to a much more local level of of supply and demand and and and this is what this system like ours this is what it entails and this is what it enables. And where do you see and what is your vision for the company where do you see it going where do you see the the size of the company do you. Because it is a blue ocean do you almost welcome competitors because if you see competitors in the space that means you know that you're moving in the right direction and more people are interested or what's what's your outlook for the next five years for green ammonia. Well for us it's going to be the growth of manufacturing and distribution of our systems so we see them being deployed all over the world quite frankly we're building them in 20 and 40 foot container platform for the reason that they can be moved around the world where they're needed and then utilized on site for for end user. This is a potentially hundreds and hundreds of billions of dollars of revenue based on thousands and thousands of systems so it can become very big very very quickly and remember the the market that we're displacing is a is an antiquated centralized market with end users who are desperate for change. So it's a it's a it's a perfect storm in the sense that adoption around that kind of change makes absolute sense so getting government support behind this and I'm not really talking financially but more on just in terms of of stakeholder in interest and importance in getting the message out that this is viable and this needs to happen. I think again is going to spread it already is spreading rapidly but I think once the awareness once systems are out in the field once there's you know real operational data on this it will grow dramatically and we're scaling with that intent we expect within the next couple of years will be in a out of cereal production into a mass production type environment. And then I would say just a question for for the entrepreneur and me and the people that are listening when you build out a company that is in such a novel new industry new technology new IP. So how do you how do you find people for your company? How do you find the right people to work with because this is this is this is mind blowing like this is again is not something where you can say hey I would love if you had X amount of years in the green ammonia field like doesn't it doesn't exist. How do you find the right people that can can make this happen. So again that's a it's a wonderful and really important question and and we build we're building the team based on the core values of the company. So this is about this company is about change it's about it's about honesty it's about transparency it's about all of the important values that that we've clearly stated on our website in every in every piece of communications that we create our values are front and center. And that attracts a very particular and specific type of person right so if we're selling if we're selling the opportunity on a value base not just on a technical base you know it's it's you really have to share the vision to participate in the company. So our hiring process is extremely focused on on on individual values and and and and and really building the team dynamic in such a way that we're all you know pulling in the very very much the same direction. And interestingly there's a lot of engineers and scientists who are looking at this space now and have spent a lot of time recently in green hydrogen which is a direct a direct component of course of green ammonia. So there's a lot of people coming through the educational system who have an awareness and and an interest so I mean you know we're we're hiring actively right now and and the quality of of candidates that we're getting is extraordinary like really people understanding you know that this is mission and value first and and and delivery of products second and we've got again from a manufacturing depth and and skill sets we've we've you know what we're doing. We're building the world class manufacturing team so it's all coming together and and and as I said earlier and you noted very very quickly so and that's you know that's a challenge in any company in our position is we're going to be in a very very rapid growth process over the next you know 12 18 months that's going to be in super intense so you know our HR discipline becomes extremely important to build the right team as. As we as we move forward very and grow very very quickly just want to take a second and think the sponsor today's episode Nord VPN now if you've ever missed out on your favorite shows it's not available in your country or if you're trying to keep your private time private you don't people spying on what you're doing let me introduce you to Nord VPN your board of US Netflix why not take a spin in the UK use Nord VPN click of a button you can do just that you want to watch your favorite anime you don't have to travel to Japan Nord VPN. 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They have a 30 day money back guarantee give it a try if you like it great if you don't let's you a refund you can pretend it never happened they gave a special discount for success story podcasts listeners they gave a special offer so go to my link at Nord VPN dot com slash success story to get your subscription started today and say let's faith we fast forward 10 years even 20 years what if you could look back on on this journey with like with fuel positive what would be the impact that you want to have on the world what's what's the thing that you want people to say about you. I think that I think fuel positive should be taking this this position in history where the shift away from fossil fuel dependency is is viable meaning that we can take an existing industry and and not shut it down not change not make it go away in the sense that that the automobile industry isn't going to go away that internal combustion engines aren't going away going away but the way that they're fueled the way that we operate changes dramatically as well as throughout the agricultural sector we expect that will have that impact globally as well. Agriculture is a huge emitter of greenhouse gases on many many different levels and many different aspects but we believe again we can take some of the core emissions and eliminate those quite frankly and and and create this this new and positive way of of farming that that is sustainable. And we think we can be you know an absolutely key aspect of that so I mean those as to pretty fundamental legacy pieces I think would you know that would be that would be profound success for us obviously. Amazing that's great I wanted to I want to pull out a few like rapid fire insights from you and your career but before we pivot most importantly where can people connect with you do you want to send people to social to if they have questions you want people to go check out a website so any sort of links social that you want to drop go for it so people will find that yeah. I mean fuelpositive.com we spent a lot of effort on our website and and the depth and and it's a very living site in the sense that it's it's evolving constantly we've got a really really active team building that building that community for us. So that's the right place to start I mean I'm easy to reach I'm Ian at fuelpositive.com so and very happy to take incoming inquiries but on the website you know a tremendous amount of questions are answered and very very active FAQ section like that yeah we're very very active we're a public company as well so of course from from that perspective we're transparent so you can learn a lot about us and in that context that context as well. The reality is building I mean the real thing for us is you know as soon as there's systems in the field again as soon as there's something to take a picture of you know it's it's being such a visual medium I again we're going to focus very heavily on on building that story building community around our end users as well I think that's the stories. I mean this is one of the things that's so great about the people and now predominantly farmers who are coming in who are who are really concerned about the environment who are incredibly innovative in terms of the types of change that they're willing and interested in implementing I mean these are fascinating people with great stories and histories I mean I you know I would love. If you know it's one thing for me to talk about the company but it's another thing for an end user. You know what is you know what's the real benefit here what's the real experience and and that of course that will that will replicate itself dramatically as systems are out in the real world. Very smart no you're 100% correct like when you when you start getting it's always great to to create something new but when you start seeing how it actually impacts the lives of people that's that's when that's when it all starts to like you start to realize what you're actually doing. So that's the joy that's the excitement that's the you know that's the record I mean you talked about recognition that's kind of the recognition and legacy is is really changing people's lives in a positive way and and enabling that you know being part of being part of enabling that is I think a real objective of a few positive. Incredible okay so let's let's go into some rapid fire just pulling out insights from from your life so first question the biggest challenge you've overcome in your personal or professional life what was that and how did you overcome it. Because challenge I it professionally has been getting building the right team right so I've gone through a whole bunch of different teams in the over the last couple of decades in terms of the different initiatives and companies that I've built and been part of and it's it's so essential to get the right people so I mean I've suffered narcissists through various iterations. And once the system has become just sort of this this I the attitude is that it's there's something normal about it right that it's it belongs in our it belongs in our in our psyche in some way and I completely oppose that view. I think that there are so many people out there who are good honest team building not driven by ego that make the best teams and and and that's what I've got today in in our company it's like again I this came from learning the hard way you know working with people who who you know only cared about their own interests and and really didn't have the team at heart and and didn't have the vision or or values that we're not going to do. So that that that is that's been the big biggest challenge and the biggest learning I think through my entire career. If you had to choose one person that has had a huge impact on your life obviously there's been many but pick one who was that person what did they teach you. You know without getting too corny I think my parents have provided a real beautiful basis for again humility and empathy you know they they were able to listen they really listened actively I think that is a I mean the skill and ability to do that I think is really important and also as a business leader as well I mean you've got to hear people you've got to be able to hear people not just tell people you know and and too many too many people too many entrepreneurs think they have all the answers they're not looking for any support they're just want to get their things done right and they're not they're not listening well so they've had a huge impact of course as a young person you know working alongside and and in the vicinity or even in the aura of of Ansel Adams you know created a real attitude he was such a humble again a very humble very funny but very serious. The serious person and and that had a big impact on me obviously as a as a young person and I hope I've carried that sensibility through to where I am today. No that's that's good that's a smart smart lesson to just the facts to be open to to learning to be humble and to know that you don't know everything I think even that that alone is something that can take a lot of people to to the next level in their career in their business whatever. Yeah no very very smart if you could pick a book or podcast or or something that people should go check out that you've enjoyed that is impacted your life in some way business or non business with that be. Well as a Canadian you know really focus on the entire Canadian broadcasting corporation network of of information I think there's something about Canadian broadcasting and it could be I mean you know just from the news through to special interests and so on. So many interesting I think David's the work that David Suzuki has done over the years and and his foundation today is is a really really important organization that that provides you know such broad analysis of issues globally and and you know had the pleasure of meeting him a couple of times through my career he's just again a straight talker you know direct to the point doesn't get caught up in the in. You know all of the politics of things but it but pushes through to the to the key issues I think that's that's incredibly important another thing that we're doing we're you know becoming involved in in the Aboriginal business association across Canada there's a real important application for our technology and remote communities so to provide. To provide energy and fertilizer and and fuel and so on in communities that are now relying completely on diesel to support themselves so I think there's a lot of lessons to be learned from from indigenous peoples across the world in fact you know who have lived and breathed. These you know these incredible places that we now call home for for you know for centuries and and millennia for much longer than we've been here so. Yeah. If you could tell you're 20 year old self one thing what would that be. It's a really good question I would I would probably say you know probably slow down a little bit you know appreciate things a little bit more I as a 20 year old I couldn't move fast enough you know through things. It's been how to good good element in that I was trying to always sort of be ahead of the head of things which is great but I I don't think I kind of slowed down enough to to appreciate things. I was lucky as a young person to travel a lot I would I would say to any 20 year old you know get out and if you can if you have any means you know get out to see your country but. If you can travel anywhere in the world and you know COVID notwithstanding you know see this planet because it gives you such a different appreciation for what it is that we're all working for here especially you know from an environmental perspective. The more I mean the great thing today that didn't exist then of course is is social media and the ability and you know Google Earth you can literally explore the world but you know to get out there to learn about new cultures and different cultures and and be accepting not tolerant I hate the word tolerant to be an accepting person and I try to live my life that way as well. And then last question what is success mean to you happiness piece calm yeah balance you know the just that whole sense that that everything everything feels right you know that that to me is that's that success. And that involves everything from you know every aspect of our lives if you can if you feel happiness you're so far ahead of most people in the world and it's it's a real it's that's my ultimate goal is to feel happy with my life and to feel that I really I contributed in some meaningful way. .