Stephanie Kramer - Chief Human Resources Officer at L'Oréal | Navigating Pregnancy & Work

Welcome to success story. I'm your host, Scott Clary. The success story podcast is part of the HubSpot podcast network HubSpot has been a huge supporter of the show. They have so many tools that can help your business The one that I want to just mention today so you go check it out is their new AI chatbot. It's called campaign assistant HubSpots campaign assistant is a game changer for creating marketing campaigns at scale It turns your key selling points into a cohesive pitch which helps you deliver knockout emails ads and landing pages in minutes Just use your content type input a few key words key points pick a tone like friendly or witty and let the AI robots handle the rest You can copy and paste the content to whatever channel you'd like or even convert it directly into publishable campaigns without leaving Your HubSpot interface so let campaign assistant take care of the campaigns so you can get back to growing your business Work smarter not harder at HubSpot.com slash campaign dash assistant So for me because we're talking about pregnancy and work one of my most powerful moments was Actually when I was pregnant with my second son and I just given a presentation I was like 37 weeks plus and I just given a presentation to a group of interns And I probably was terrifying them that I was going to go into labor But in fact, I knew a high risk condition and I was about to be induced like the next day And I remember saying to this group of you know young New team members and we're looking up at me and I was like presenting on A communication skills and with like a lot of enthusiasm and I said I'm so proud that this is the last thing I'm going to do before I have my son And for me and I remember the moment that I was driving home So it lives in New York City and I was coming from the office and I took a taxi home Uh up to the upper west side and I remember that moment typing it into my phone to write a note to my second son So with the first one I'd written a journal of reflection the second one I'm like literally making a memo But it was that I felt so powerful and it was like a very banal easy low-risk high you know Not a high-stakes presentation. It was this special moment But it was something that I felt Representative of potential and also saw reflected back in this like acceptance and eagerness And for me, you know, it was a very big difference from when The first time I was pregnant and that's where I recognized No, I've been thinking about the topic a lot But I really recognize the powerful intersection of work and pregnancy and life moments as something that we often frame it as dire But in fact, it also has these super high highs that are not just the personal highs But in fact can actually have work moments too and that the rest of it is just so normal And I feel like for me, you know, when you ask the question I zoomed right back into that taxi and I still have the note to my son Um, and it was really it was really special and it was in something very mundane Like I have some really big cool career and life moments But that was a really mundane thing that certainly has played into how I talk about the topic today Do you think that do you think that for most people the the concept of pregnancy in a work context not in a life context Because obviously it's a beautiful thing and people get very excited and they should but in a work context Is it stressful you said it's dire it's it's not a positive is it encroaching on a negative in a work context for the majority of people I think it's interesting the women that I spoke to In anticipation of it often feels daunting because you know, it's something that's very private It's very personal it is going to have an effect one way or another On your career and by the way, it's concurrent. I think often it's also framed as something that you have to like get through or That you know one thing stops before the other thing begins But then completely contrary so many women that I spoke to for the book talk about In hindsight this really positive experience that they had in fact if they have a great experience at work While they're pregnant it actually helps to retain them So instead of thinking about it as this point of attrition or you know, there's these headlines pregnancies a career killer I've really been focused on trying to create a balanced message so that when you're coming into it You know, we all we all have these moments that if they're framed up is something that's really tough or to get through You're going to think about it differently like yeah, it's you're going to think about it You know differently than when I asked college age women that maybe weren't yet at that point It was some was negative some was positive and some was just neutral so much more Then I think the women that were going through it current and definitely not the same perspective is those in hindsight So I think it's a really important message That you know, it's what holds us back is often what we have in our head too and some things are true Like that's not Caviating that this isn't there aren't difficult things to get through but there's also Um, there's also some great stuff and also just regular regular day-to-day So then I'm so curious as to when you interview all these women the interview college age women you interview career Women you interview women that have gone gone through it even though it's concurring It's not something you get over. I mean those people that are the result of being pregnant are with you for God willing the rest of your life But when you speak to all these different people what what are the factors that influence perception of pregnancy? So one thing is that I actually interviewed also college age men or non-gender conforming individuals and also ask the question of men and women and non-gender conforming that With and without children so I tried to include kind of everybody in the spectrum and in fact in the last study Of kind of both genders I asked the question or parents an asset and in fact, you know Men with children were the most likely to say yes So it's very interesting to think about the perception of pregnancy and then also parenthood and separating them into kind of these different Ways that we look at it, you know today. There's there's a motherhood penalty. So mothers earning less A fatherhood bonus that we actually have but in fact for me I really would like to reframe it overall and that's the difference in the perception part that happens in advance And you know, I think it's a really an opportunity for us to look at How we can benefit everybody By making this again a moment of retention instead of attrition So let's back up a little bit because you you're in this role right now. So you are Your CHRO at L'Oreal and Obviously if you're in human resources There's a plethora of different things you have to manage in a day to day that are difficult human conversations right This is this is the job But how did you get involved in human resources where were you in your career where you said listen for the rest of my life I would like to help people navigate one of the most complex things will ever do which is the workplace and all the different personalities and and and and life struggles and work struggles because it takes a special kind of person to to Accel in that role because it's tough right you're dealing with everybody's most inner You know inner problems inner struggles you're dealing with money family career success all that stuff It goes through CHRO and it's not like L'Oreal's small company either you probably have lots of stuff you have to manage So where did this where did this passion come from? It's it's funny. I had to answer the question a few weeks ago about what were my first jobs So my first jobs where I was a lifeguard a babysitter and I worked in a garden center So there's something where like I enjoy the care of others I mean, I think some days my HR role is most definitely more lifeguard or more babysitter But I like to enjoy the nurturing um garden center version I was the person who would like carry the bags of mulch to your car That was me um, but it's funny because every role that I've had since then I get a tremendous amount of energy from being with people and you know I actually was a chemist I was a chemistry major undergrad and I remember spending so much time in the labs And I got the most energy when they asked for volunteers to go into the schools to teach them To the local schools and that's kind of when I was like okay, maybe maybe this is where I need to be is regardless of the role that I'm in I want to do it with others and I want to do it with teams So I've always been in actually our businesses. So last year I joined HR as our first people experience officer at laurel And then became the chiro and transitioning with our current chiro who's retiring um over the past six months So it's very new to me But I I keep saying it but is I have always been driven so much by The the leader being the leader or being a mentee or being a manager thinking about the community that you build around you It ultimately to serve the purpose of the business or the goals. So that part feels really inherent and the second piece is that um I I really believe in the power where we are right now with leaders and the HR as a function that you're a partner So I think you know, we've gone through this interesting time where we had top-down leadership and then we had servant leadership And now it really is a partnership. So you have employees you have people managers And you have HR and they have to work together in that way too and for me It's it's kind of cool coming in it from the business perspective and also as an employee who's worked across different parts of the business How can you have that consistency and that approach and the elevation of the manager and the role of the manager But on the other hand HR provides a tremendous amount of expertise including how they care for people and what they provide and um It is it's a lot of details. It's very personal But it's also that consistent approach that kind of make sure you're creating safety inclusion You're elevating everyone in their role and you're helping them to be empowered to drive what's next for their career And that's definitely feels part of my overall purpose When you look at the HR function in a business and you look at what you've done You've you know you've built a brand you've written a book you've really championed and evangelized a cause It's very very meaningful for you Uh, I don't see a lot of HR professionals Going above and beyond this level which is fine, but I'm sure there's also good HR and bad HR Almost like run of the mill HR Just hiring maybe not putting as much energy into Improving the company but putting a lot of energy into bringing new people in and that's where they stop and draw the line So what is good HR? What is bad HR? I mean you're operating at some of the highest levels right now So just curious about your opinion on that Sure, so I think you know Good HR is a partner so partner to there's well, there's two really strong types of HR in my perspective You have very strong expertise So you need people that are experts in pensions and benefits and still need to be partners to you into the businesses and individuals But they have really unique skill sets and that's something for me that I knew coming in from my own perspective As a leader within the business that that's not something I know so even more so I knew that I needed to Have strong teammates and I do in those roles, you know Even we have a people services organization and they are the ones to call instead of the ones that maybe your HR business partners Where they're most directly working with individuals or working with the leaders of businesses and that I understood a bit more because I had had that on the other side So I was I'm flipping my role there, but you know, I think that's really where Individuals need to recognize the strength of HR And the other part is one of the most important roles that HR can do is to facilitate the role of the leader Or the manager and the employee and that's how you create really empowered approach You know, it's not at the end of the day just someone who you go to is going to be enforcing a policy or going to give you the feedback It's always so much stronger if that feedback comes from your manager And of course if you know you're reviewing the policy and it's what do you need from HR in order to best Power you so I feel like that's that's for me one of the most important delineations instead of kind of being the the keeper of Particularly policies or reinforcement or bearer of bad news, you know all the things that I get teased of how to Thanksgiving when I was moving to HR But instead it's like how can HR be a key partner to unlock the business bring their expertise and in fact create a better relationship with those who are actually working most closely together I love that I love that definition a lot um, okay, so I want to so let's let's focus on on the book that you just wrote and a lot of lessons from that book So that is really what we're here to talk about today and we can talk about HR all day But I think that there's a much more pressing topic that you really know quite a bit about so carry strong This is a book that you you wrote and I want to understand Out of you know, you mentioned the story in the car and that was a very strong impactful story for you Is that the main reason why you chose to focus on pregnancy in the workplace this particular topic? You decided to do the research what was the sort of the impetus for actually writing the book outside of just caring about this topic across potentially your own organization and not putting it out into the world You know, it's interesting that when you ask me the question I jump to that story because often where I start with the book is completely on the other side of the spectrum More than 10 years ago. I my husband ran the New York City Iron Man race and in fact you finished the race But then for the next two weeks he was in critical condition I I almost lost my husband a few days before our first anniversary So that's kind of a tough starting point of the book, which is really interesting I only in writing it really understood that that Moment had such a weight in in this particular topic because as I write in the book I remember which direction I was looking in the hospital chair when I was told by the head of the hospital It was a good thing. I didn't have children and that I remember Rocking me it was like I knew you know my life like the things that you want You know, I wanted to have a career. I wanted to have a family But I didn't realize how paramount it was for us When I was in that moment where it truly felt like it might not happen So then fast forwarding you know a year and a half later because you have to make sure you know everything is okay Health-wise we finally became pregnant and we were so excited and I was like this is the light at the end of the tunnel This is so exciting You know, I was in a great place of work Which in fact I had chosen to make a career move because I wanted to I wanted to consider what other options I had And I wanted to be in the new job and kind of have firm footing which so many women go through this process before That next step of starting a family And I went to the doctor's office and I thought I was going to have this great news You know, I had passed kind of the first mile stones of being pregnant and in the number of weeks before you get to have your first doctor's appointment And I remember the look on her face Just just as much as the direction I was facing with the previous story when she was like this is this is really not likely to make it And so I wanted to dress or remember we were like skipping into the appointment and then coming out It was a completely different feeling for the next several weeks At work. I remember you know not wanting to carry extra things into a conference room or You know walking across the street with a my my hand on a non-existent belly and just the the the feeling that I had in this secret moment Of kind of like so much hope but also just hopelessness And then I remember the next moment was you know staring at my computer screen and I had a stabbing pain and kind of started What would happen the next 24 hours where I would would suffer my first pregnancy loss So that was a tipping point where I realized this this intersection of work. It was literally a physical moment And for the next several years, you know, I did I did a TEDx. We had a TEDx at L'Oreal which was amazing Called push about public pregnancy. I started teaching in FIT and communications I had students and I had mentees and by the way mentors That we often talk behind closed doors about this really important topic and not just not just pregnancy loss But all of the other pieces of it too and life moments And then during the pandemic I saw these amazing Women particularly pregnant women, you know in their PPE or you know linked arms Against what was happening in our country and I was I thought wow how incredibly strong So I decided in that moment and my younger son was using our room that had a door And I was in the hallway on an ironing board with my laptop and my my younger son was home to So it was on top of a box of diapers when I had zooms, you know to try to get the right to hang And I remember talking to a friend of mine. I was like, you know There's a collection of stories that I want to write and I think it'd be really powerful to help women feel less alone And these really important moments and this is what I'm thinking and she was like, you know, you really need to do the research You need to do some senses validated information and I I really took that to heart because You know, I'm a privileged woman who works in unbelievable companies surrounded by supportive Other fellow parents. Yeah, I had a paid leave. I had a partner that worked So I had all of those things and yet I felt that way and I was also, you know, supporting other people that were feeling that way too So I said, okay, that's what I need to do So I decided to write the first study and after that point Uncovered some really interesting facts that then required more also, you know from what I said before My background is also like the scientist Yeah, yeah, yeah So Then I thought, okay, is there a way to combine This really powerful kind of quantitative data that nobody had really looked at before there's a lot of great information and stats about pregnancy and work But not kind of the questions that I was asking For example, one out of two women said that trying to conceive not yet being pregnant had an impact on work And if you ask anybody that has kids I'm sure that they would answer that yes trying to conceive has an impact on work unless of course it happens right away And then it's you're in the next phase but For me, you know, having some tangible facts that surprised me Also encouraged me to make sure that I was was relevant and going to be helpful in a pragmatic way Just as much as trying to encourage people to rethink the moment Um, so two two things that I want to go into I want to talk about some of those other stats and facts Are you uncovered being being the researcher that you are? Which is probably the best possible person to write a book about a topic like this because you dive into the details and data but I'm more and not a more interesting of another interesting thing that you just mentioned is the the psychology of of this whole experience you said you know you mentioned one word you mentioned the word secret and I think that's very interesting because If you have worked and I'm pretty sure most people in this podcast work a significant amount of hours in a week You spend more time with the people at work than sometimes you even do with your own family You know, it's it's not great, but it's a reality for a lot of people um and When you have something so personal That is a secret. I can only imagine how much that weighs on you. So let's actually unpack Why do we have to keep these things a secret from our peers at work? Why is this something that we feel uncomfortable speaking about Before a certain point Well, you know, it's It's one of these things that's there's so many things that people feel um They're hidden they're invisible weights, you know, that you're you're carrying on your shoulders every day when you show up at work The interesting interesting thing about pregnancy is that this is something physical pregnancy And there's so many ways that people become parents, but physical pregnancy there is a there is a um a literal point Where if and I will talk a little bit about the the impact on the pandemic, but Where it's kind of revealed for you So you know, that's one is that you feel kind of a pressure that at some point Whether you want to or not it's going to be revealed and and actually it was one of my own personal experiences I remember because after suffering loss I was so afraid to share for two reasons One, I had my own fear of getting my hopes up, you know And I think like the idea of Of sharing this good news and then having to backtrack And the second part which is very rational is also the fear of perception You know what will change how will people view me and by the way whether or not it actually Does happen and I will tell you certainly both extremes still happen today in the workplace I think that there's still this feeling of both the forcing function of physical pregnancy But also the combination of what you tell yourself and how you feel comfortable And then also the other side of perception and You know one thing we were talking about earlier, but is The conversations that you may want to have They don't have to be the same and I think the hard thing is and the great thing is actually that so many people now are more willing to share these stories And personally like I I mean I needed to be 10 years In order to be comfortable to be sharing this with you right now And some women they may become pregnant in the next day they're ready to share so one of the reasons why I also wrote the book By delineating the phases is because for some people the third phase which is called the hush which is the secret time It might be a day, you know You might be at a place of work where you're super comfortable And in fact that might be how you are as well where you're just more open to sharing And you'd rather have if something you know doesn't happen Well that you'd rather have people around you and other people might not feel comfortable that way So instead I try in the book to give some framework that No, if it's you and that's what you want to say and you know who you need to tell you exactly what you're going to say and others that Maybe use language more like I'm going through something personal I'll let you know if I need anything from you versus I'm going through you know fertility treatments And I'm going to have these appointments in which they do XYZ and you need to you know both can have the same end goal of making you confident and feel supported and Establish what you may need in that moment from whomever that is is it HR is it your boss is it appear is it an ally At the workplace and they can be done in different ways So Let's dive into some of the data that you discovered while prepping For writing this book so what are what are some of the data points that you uncovered? What are some of the The common misconceptions that people still believe all all of that I think that data data is very powerful And I'm sure there's some positive that comes from data. I'm sure there's a lot of negative and unfortunate realities that are still present in the in the workforce in 2023 that also came from understanding data Yes, so it was important for me to have the the data to kind of Validate some of the hypotheses and just to give some moments where you could be surprised But I also was very thoughtful in the book to make sure that it didn't feel like even if numbers show that then you might it might not be you So so you know As I talked about the hush that's the middle kind of phase. So within the first phase. I call it BTTC. So pre pregnancy I did these studies with college age men and women and non-gender conforming And 92% of college age women said that motherhood will have an impact on their career And it's funny because some people I say that to jump to that it's negative and it's just an acknowledgement and in fact For most of us it probably should be somewhere in your 100% because regardless if you decide to A parent you know you you're making that decision. So there's some level of that But that's a really high number and that's me asking college age women today and the study is in 2021 So this is not old data And the second question that I asked that was really powerful in in that particular phase is one out of two So they chose their major because of it and in fact men were almost as high So again not necessarily negative not necessarily positive But they were thinking about it and the funny thing is afterwards I did some subsequent focus groups with college age women around the country because I was like tell me more about this because I thought it was a pretty big number I expected there to be some significance to it But I didn't expect it to be so high And they said just no one ever asked me And so actually this week I had an event where I was speaking to college age women And it was so cool to hear you know in primarily Gen Z be so open and excited To talk about something so personal Including even the word pregnancy They were like we're so much more likely to talk about an HPV vaccine And then we are talk about someday becoming a parent and I was like that's really powerful and another Example I was talking to them and they were like well, yeah, and I'm trying I'm about to intern at a company And I was so impressed that they said they offer egg freezing and I was like oh, okay Well tell me more about that. They were like listen I know based off of the type of relationship I want to have that I'm going to need egg freezing someday to start my family And I thought oh my gosh Not only did we jump I think some of the other women in the group too that that would be to prolong your fertility This was making her feel safe and included to go to a company that she could then have a benefit that would allow her Regardless of the way that her path to pregnancy would happen would be possible And I was like okay, that's pretty cool So that's in the the pre pre-conception phase Then I mentioned in the trying to conceive so the TTC so trying to conceive the one out of two saying that that had An impact on work and I think this one is super super important Because you know, there's some stories in the book and some women are that I've talked to you could be pregnant It worked for five years and not have a baby and that is that secrecy That's the reality of all the things that you're navigating the emotions the intensity and also the amount Of drive and conviction that needs to happen concurrent to while you're working that maybe no one knows about Um, so I found that incredibly important time period to be aware of Then you move into the hush of the the secret phase and I hear again It was really a focus on those conversations that need to happen Um and often the the concern about what you think Uh, you may be judged so a lot of that language versus in the push I actually saw that women had an increase in confidence So, you know, depending on and I broke it down by subsets on on age etc But in general, they're actually the boost. So there's also something that's like, you know, you were just asking about The the things that hold us back. It's almost once it's out there too and you're also through kind of the health Concerns or you may have new health concerns, but um It's interesting because there was also these women that also felt this boost that had a positive impact on their career And in fact for those who felt more confident they also increased their effort So and this is self-reflexive information, but that's pretty interesting to And then the last part I call it anticipating the great return or not because both are valid and um It was interesting the the point about an asset in the workplace that you know the the men with children were more likely to say it Then women without children. So I think it's important that we have the conversation where we include Everyone and talk about this very normal thing that's that's likely to happen to 85% of women Yeah, you know, it's a it's a big one So I think those those data points for me are linchpin's in allowing the stories to kind of form around them for the unique experiences that everyone has Now this so I think that you know what I'm actually If I'm if I'm looking at this data and correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like when When when a potential mother or somebody who's going to be starting to be or going to be pregnant gets that That validation not validation is the wrong work like almost the acceptance of the workplace like everything is a net positive after that It seems like everything is positive because then all of a sudden There's more effort involved in work There's more retention of the employee across the family not just the actual not actual just the person is pregnant So it seems like it's like a net positive once a business based on this data Once a business actually accepts and sort of supports the woman. Is that correct? Yes, but they still have the the concern of perception and the reality is that there's still a motherhood penalty In terms of on the other side. So you're right if they're supported in that moment You know 50% of women during the push had a more positive change and their opinion Of their place of work during pregnancy But that also means that 50% either were neutral or negative. So exactly as you share like kind of can go both ways One out of two women felt comfortable transitioning for leave So if you think about that and you can be I can frame it positively but also on the other side You know The same number around 48% of women said that their experience at work all pregnant had an impact on their decision to return So I think the most important thing that the data told me Was how do we support the places of work? How do we support the individual? How do we make them match? um and just to be aware that although you know pregnancy specifically if you do the math on the the number of Months of your career. It's around like 2% But it's a really profound impact because it's so personal and in fact so many people Are working to provide so you feel this you know Value of yourself worth you feel this importance of responsibility with what you're caring for But you also put in a lot of effort into your career and your job So for for the woman going through it. It's a really big deal But also you know for places of work or teams No, that's that's a very small amount of time relative to other people So that's kind of why I think it's important that Everyone's aware of these phases that someone could be going through and how all those little moments really add up to something that could be really positive or in fact can can have a A negative effect for for the future and for when they return which is really Important the quick break from this podcast to recommend another podcast the yet to check out It's called the product boss is hosted by Jacqueline and Mina. It's part of the HubSpot podcast network If you have a physical product this podcast is hyper tailored to you It's going to help you take your business to the next level in a recent episode for example They spoke about the power of tiktok for product businesses and how to use it to drive sales and as somebody who is a little new to tiktok I really learned some great tips for creating content that actually converts viewers into customers They have a workshop style format that makes it really easy to follow along to take your business to the next level So if you sell physical products subscribe to the product boss wherever you get your podcast to unlock social media Marketing and business strategies that create your dream business and then your dream life one I'm just thinking now. I'm just thinking about like sort of the different sizes of companies and the amount of support they they can offer I mean companies should of course try and offer support at any size But I think that also some companies don't like I mean if it's pure pure startup It could be very difficult and it could be very difficult for the founder CEO to offer the same level support For example, the example you just gave like egg freezing is something that I don't think like a bootstrap startup is going to be offering So I think that it's also important to figure out where where you can work and it's also important to figure out What kind of businesses can support because we're not going to talk we're not going to include in this conversation businesses That are just bad businesses to work for businesses to have the resources but don't support women who are pregnant Because I think that's I think there's probably still some of them out there But I think that's not who we're talking about here. We're talking about working you place yourself If you're not in is this is this a valid conversation like where if you're not in the right organization that can support Does it make sense to look for organizations that can support better? It's it's an important checkpoint and actually something that I talk about in the the BTTC phase Is three questions you can ask yourself and I've kind of two frameworks that I can share a little bit One is three questions when you're thinking about making a move What do I want for my life right now and I think we used to say Okay, um the other two questions are what do I want to learn or what I want to teach and where do I get my energy And I feel like what's interesting in these powerful life moments is that the order begins with what do I need for my life right now There's nothing wrong with that. I think we're finally at the point where we're comfortable to have that be a discussion and You know, it's it's a matching exercise. It's what type of company what do I want for where do I get my energy What do we need for my life right now and also what do I want to teach what do I want to learn and of course We we want people to have you know long careers where they can grow in different organizations But I think the recognition that people do move for all three reasons is very valid too And what you need right now might be different than what you needed you know in your first job or 10 years later And I think that that's why I try to encourage people to think about it for your place of work for yourself And also for others No, when you're interviewing you might want to ask a question That's like what type of benefits do you offer for XYZ just understand What is offered for everyone that you work with and you shouldn't be scared of asking those questions either Because the interview is too way and I and I and I I would I these are all assumptions because again, I'm not a woman So I've never really gone through this, but I could I could Imagine that if it is such a Like obviously it's a very stressful personal situation The first thing that I would think about is oh, I don't want to bring that up in an interview because what if They don't hire me because I ask these questions That would be that would I would be stressed as hell, right? So 100% and that's why I try to to frame it up as something To ask long before you need it or even the way you can ask it is like what type of benefits do you offer for Employees instead of saying so what's your maternity policy? Yeah, and by the way We let's hope we can get to the point where people can ask that without fear of you know perception But it's it is true that the people are afraid of doing that Um, so I encourage it to ask the way that makes you feel comfortable And of course for for organizations to be more transparent on what they offer too So you don't have to be digging and so that you're aware of what it is long before it's you know feeling very close Um in your own uh in your own foresight. So I think that that's It's a different way to think about the important questions um the people need to ask yeah one other example is I remember a woman Um Abby Donnell she created a work in mother They actually provide an install lactation rooms in you know different buildings and offices etc And she said instead of asking do you have a mother's room or a place for you to breastfeed just ask where it is And I thought okay, that was pretty cool like that is that's it and that is so much more freeing because instead you're not saying like Is that okay? You're not asking permission for it. You're saying where is this expectation? That it's there. Yeah, yeah and an organization if you hear that it should be you know one way or the other way You're going to be like oh, it's here or um, we don't have that which is it'll actually put it'll actually this is actually this is an interesting Conversation because again you you are CHRO so you probably deal with it is quite a bit But when you're interviewing for an organization like the interview has to be both ways and it should be the organization Selling themselves to you as much as you are quote-unquote selling yourself to the organization And I think that the power dynamic is off and I can only imagine in this situation the power dynamic is even more off than if it's just Asking what the salary is or how much vacation you get it's a much more personal Uh and meaningful conversation, but I do believe that when you say it like that it starts to put the organization on the defensive It's like this is what this is the other five people I've interviewed with this is the expectation right so Where is where is it for you? I actually think it's also very powerful I want people at our organization that ask those questions like how fantastic like if you were interviewing and you said So what type of parental support do you give and do you have do you have a lactation room? I'd be like Wow, yeah, you know Yes Yes, and thank you for asking and I'm thrilled to share with you what our policy is because that's also an opportunity For for organizations to share what they offer or don't and you know, that's okay too I think that the bar is super high in terms of what People are looking for which is which is good But also as you said there's different sizes of organizations Different types of places of work and also, you know, this conversation is all very much around non-primarily manual labor, you know not hourly working etc and also by the way hybrid work or virtual work too Now let's talk about so so there's a lot of there's a lot of positive a lot of organizations that make an effort But obviously, you know if you if you look at data I'm sure there's a lot of organizations that that do not make an effort or Assume some sort of bias when somebody is is trying to get pregnant is pregnant so What are some realities that Somebody in a workforce where there is bias against being pregnant? They feel like they're going to be laid off or maybe you know, they they are laid off whatever it's adorable The still this there still happens um My suggestion is to always you know, that's a very uh at the very Clear sign that you should go find a better company, but that's not always the case sometimes people don't know the company they're working at is bias towards pregnant women so say you're thinking about getting pregnant you think about having a family What should you be looking for? What is a red flag in an organization where you should be like? Okay, listen this is this is not what the norm is maybe it's time to start looking before I have a have a child or try and have a child Ask the the parents Or leaders or people that you admire or that you observe in the organization their own experience see how they talk about it You know, I think that can be a great starting point where you know in the way that you feel comfortable You're you're understanding the reality of maybe what you you could foresee and you see if it's something that's generalized or if it's a specific to an individual and I think that is a really important step that can help Uh Give kind of the I would say it's the actions and the policies versus the reality and if those are matching to so that's one thing Certainly it's important. It was important for me um It to look to those people and see Uh And see their experiences which obviously can be very different than yours But you get a pretty good sense of how someone talks about that um and if You know, there's going to be the impact of work, but also the individual And what they're bringing to that their own experience is bringing to that So I think that's one way to to approach it. I think that's smart because I think that You know, the the the other way would be to challenge or try and change the perception of the employer, but I think that For a lot of people I wouldn't even recommend that to be quite honest I don't think that's a that's a battle that you really want to take on as an individual um for that particular organization I think that there's You also have to be aware of your protections and your rights, but I do often find and That's very very important Including by the way for breastfeeding etc and what comes after but um Often I have found that when women are asking questions and trying to know details of their protections You know, maybe start first also with um the individuals and the organization and I'm sure That many things will be uncovered first or there's a reason why you're feeling that way to um and you might be surprised But uh, you know women need to they need to feel safe regardless of that It still can be very scary and there's an identity shift that happens too So it's not even just about a fear of perception of the workplace But for so many of us it was also about ourselves, you know I I feel I remember staring in my closet when I was returning to work after having my second son And I was like who am I What does she wear where does she go how does she show up like That was really tough and then you take some time and take some adjustment Post baby because then you're you're a mother of a newborn and then you're a mother of a toddler And then now I have these two, you know young children and I'm still evolving in in who I am I including at work And by the way, there's also some people and I felt this way after my first child, which is I'm exactly the same and You know now I appreciate that it's not true, but um, but that's another thing to keep in mind is that yes perception of an organization and things that hold you back and fear from a physical standpoint But also you are going through some kind of shift in terms of um what this means for you Were there any were there any strategies that That you took on or that have really like helped you navigate this whole process personally that you think would be helpful for people to to try out So one thing that's helpful and it's it's actually helpful regardless of pregnancy, but because we're talking a lot about Um making moves or you know observing the type of organization you're in and the three questions you can ask yourself I think they're helpful, but one other thing that might be helpful for the listeners is I often use a traffic light with people So and this works really well, you know with junior employees, but I will tell you for me myself Everyone recognizes the feeling of being stuck You know this duck feeling and so I'm trying to give a framework to that so If you're if you're green and you're in the zone You know, you're you're moving through projects you feel challenged you have a good team Um, you feel like you're learning you feel like you're teaching all of the things are are happening So it's like okay cool. I'm in this green zone and with the intersection of pregnancy There could be a fear that that's going to go away So what I try to tell people is recognize what things are giving you the green You know, is it the the work that you're doing? Is it the job? Is it the environment? Is it the people that you're with? Because many of those things are going to stay the same or you want to recognize if you're going to make a move or if you Just want to keep hold of them what they are So if you're in the if you're in the green Like recognize that and feel that way and what's giving you that then there's the yellow lights Okay, so now you're at the yellow light and there's something there's something that's like Holding you back and you're feeling stuck like do you go through the light do you not But push a forcing function of saying am I green am I yellow or am I red and yellow for pregnancy I often tell people that's where it starts to kind of like the lights go on. It's like okay Something's bothering me. Maybe you're maybe your work life balance is off. Maybe you're um The project you're working on isn't really interesting But the people are or the environment or something needs to shift because there's something that if the yellow feeling keeps coming up You it doesn't feel good and then the last one which is if you're at this red light That's like red flag because that also can have an impact on your health your mental health your physical health But that means something has to change and you you get more and more of those yellow lights You start heading towards the red light or the red light is the signal where it's like you've got it something's got to go Um, and so I often find that that can be very helpful in these moments To identify and by the way it might not be work It might be other things that are going on in your life and work might be the one thing that's giving you all the green lights And making you feel good But you have to recognize what is it that's causing me in a good way or a bad way to be in the green in the yellow or having these red moments that especially At these big powerful intersections like pregnancy and work you want to make sure you're not staying there very long at a stop sign And one other concept that you speak about quite often it's work life fluidity uh and how does this play into work Life pregnancy major life intersections So work life balance is a term that so many people use And in fact, I live my life somewhere between green juice and donuts. So I like balance I like to run a new balances and big runner But I really don't like this term very much personally because it puts so give so much credit to to work And if you imagine a seesaw and you have work on one side and life on the other side It's it's not very exciting. You're trying to strive for something that's really not attainable There's so many events in life. It's not fair to say that equally balances that work Yes, and we train our bodies to be to have balance like standing on one foot is uncomfortable What's amazing is when you're walking you're actually unbalanced I remember seeing something one time that was like a series of unbalanced Movement's momentum was like okay, this is very helpful But for me the idea of more fluid approach which I call work life fluidity Sometimes people talk about work life integration or work life harmony Which are helpful also, but for me I actually prefer Fluidity because it means that I am there's movement and sometimes I mean might be even for for a day I might go through like full focus in work or slide to focusing on mom or slide to focusing on the book Or it might be a whole week like this week I completely honest. I have been really focused on the book I've had some important moments where I needed to shift back into work You know even though I took a couple days off But then there's other moments like you know yesterday morning where I was full 100% on mom And so instead of trying to strive all the time for balance that is not going to happen That fluid approach instead for me gives permission that you're you're trying to actually have more focus And that's where ultimately you find your balance and for for you I think it's just recognizing If something's pushed all the way to one side all the time That's when you don't feel the balance that's happening But instead that fluidity can give some permission To allow you to to be where you are and the one thing I often share with the fluid approaches We all have like so much FOMO And this fear of missing out on things it goes so much with parents like GILTS like constant guilt. I'm not doing enough at work I'm not doing enough with my family. I'm not doing anything personal I'm not taking care of myself and it's like all of this FOMO But instead the fluidity kind of allows you to have a little bit more Como I was in a training one time now. I've never heard So I'm told I've told this this story to several people and I always send this this trainer This thing Como is certainty of missing out. Oh my goodness. I love it FOMO where I'm like I am always feeling like I'm dropping the ball Como is I am most certainly not right now at my kids, you know sports lesson that's this afternoon I'm not so instead of Feeling guilt about that you can feel guilt for like a second But then just have some certainty and it otherwise you're carrying around constant FOMO and not actually being present And I think if if the past three years taught us anything It's like we have to try to be as present as we can but that those two ideas honestly have set me free so much At least from the guilt and I also feel like It's a more modern and human way to think about the way we identify ourselves like No, I am I feel incredibly responsible for our employees and my job and I really like I can have that Level that I know that I need to do to best support the organization in my role But I also really do believe that you know my my my motherhood teaching The work on the book it's so fueling to me and it's instead I kind of remove some of those labels And I really try to just see all of those things are ultimately what make me who I am and then I'm ultimately better for all of those things Um, but I feel like it's it's a new way for us to really think about setting ourselves free You know you got it so so there's a there's a huge onus on companies to enable this and and to create Again, the the psychologically safe environment for people to be present in other areas of their life and this Pregnancy is one thing that Pregnancy is one of a billion different things that people are trying to do Concurrently with work which has you know work is it takes so much energy it like it's so it if if enabled You could not be present for your family not be present for your own pregnancy not be present for your parents not be Present for your spouse because work just ways work always ways on you right So this is very important because this whole combo Being present thing it allows you to enjoy all these major life milestones like how many people you know They they don't pay attention to anything until there's like a you know a heart attack or something like that And then they realize that all they care about is work it happens all the time and and you could be pregnant with a child And you could you could have a wonderful birth in the and the company could support you but if you know You're on maternity leave and people are still digging your inbox and and you know the the offices counting down the days So you get back because the whole world exploding and blowing up without you You you can't enjoy that life milestone like you really can't because there's a huge psychological weight So I think business has to enable people to Do their own thing live their own life and know that they're going to come back and help the organization But know that the organization is not their life You know So I you totally get it which I just love it. Yeah, it's awesome um The first thing that you talk about with psychological safety and energy I feel like you know first people have to feel safe and they have to feel included and then you can have um, yeah, then you can have more Dynamic dialogues if you're in that space you can have innovation But there's a baseline because otherwise what I love what you said is about energy It takes a tremendous amount of energy if you feel that you can't show up as you who you are You know, you're you're covering for all of these other Dimensions of your identity including you know pregnancy or being a parent and that's already taking so much energy I would so much rather have people use that energy for their work and their life than you know not feeling safe but um With that there's a tremendous amount of responsibility on organizations and on individuals on leaders to create Safety to create inclusion and to allow for that that dialogue to happen But I totally agree with that and I I feel like Also you recognize the power of when that energy is going where it shouldn't be going So this is this is a I'd love this and I think this is sort of like the the the call out of leaders that okay So if you're if you're a leader and you're thinking Well, you know what we don't want to invest in in in rooms where women can feed their babies for example um, and now Now we have a woman who's working in our organization and she just had a child and Or it's not not it's not feed their babies because you wouldn't take your baby to work But what was the word you used lactation room? Is that the yeah or we can be mother's room or wellness spaces There's a lot of different the point is you now you have this woman who's living living in the organization working there every day And and her mind is always on how do I how do I solve for this because my work isn't solving for it for me right and and constant distraction constant stress and there is like a very real dollar value Attached to that distraction and that stress that you weren't thinking about when you chose not to invest in this room Or this space that would have cost you like a couple contractors and you know a couple hours of labor to Finish off this room the right way, but instead of doing that you thought it's an unnecessary expense It wasn't approved, but that person's job Multiply it across thousands if not tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of women across organization The cost is going to be detrimental to the organization But they won't see that they're losing money the product the productivity will just decrease to a certain percentile And they won't understand it The cost of recruiting them too because you know First of all regardless if they actually use the space the space existing is actually providing that psychological safety And that it's okay and the freedom and the importance and the second part is you know if you lose them in that moment Or if you retain them you also have to hire another person Which is wildly expensive insanely expensive yeah, it's huge in fact So yeah, it's worth it and also by the way, it's it's a requirement for many places too So it's something simple But it can be so incredibly important and if you go to the baseline of fundamental Providing you know hierarchy of means yeah, you're providing you know you're providing food and nourishment and And also obviously Need the the privacy and comfort in order to do that too. Yeah. No, that's very very smart and and I and I hope businesses understand I hope business understand that the argument for Investing in these resources if they're not legally required Is is is a sunk cost to the business because it's not it's definitely not and the the ability to work anywhere is only increasing and People will not choose your organization They will they don't have to anymore. It's very easy. They don't have to at all So get your shit together anyways Any last any last thoughts any last bits of wisdom or advice That you want to give over to the audience things that I didn't ask you that you wanted to speak about in floors yours You know, I really enjoyed this conversation Scott and I think what's really powerful is that you know One thing that I always say is that you can do it all not at the same time and not alone and the You can do it all doesn't mean you have to and your all is not necessarily my all and I always try to say that to people because I like How does she do all of these things? I get a tremendous amount of joy and energy giving From these different dimensions, but what is your all and not feeling held back by that is so powerful The second part is not at the same time So there's going to be seasons for all of us where we're going to downshift and upshift in different parts of our life And that's okay too and that doesn't mean that you're like counted out What we need to make sure that that we're demonstrating all of the different things that can happen in life And this is just one very profound and a very common example yet being extraordinary And the last part which has really touched me in this conversation is the not alone because even the way you're asking the questions is Is so empowering to me that we're having this conversation in a space that it hasn't happened before So I'm just so grateful because the more people here You and I discussing this with enthusiasm and transparency That's how we flip the script that's how we do it and by the way, it's in the construct of leadership and talking about success Like that's pretty incredible instead of talking about it as this like horrible thing So I just want to thank you for that. It's really been A pleasure to talk about it with you and thank you and thank you for helping to create this conversation In such a powerful space. No pleasure pleasure is all mine And and I appreciate the conversation because you know the second the second I discovered this this book and and what you were working on It was it was an immediate like yes, let's let's You know, let's create some content around this because It's it's actually wild to me that there isn't more content around this particular topic So you look at all the different even like HR topics you look at underrepresented groups and marginalized groups and whatnot Which is very important, but it's not it's not speaking about a condition that literally is is is Agnostic of any group any you know everyone gets affected by this you actually had a really funny You had a funny quote though tell tell tell your tell your Your little quote that you used to open when you speak about this oh So it's funny because the word pregnancy again. I think can be a turn-off for people When I'm like, let's talk about pregnancy and work and they're like let me talk about leadership And so I often begin talks with um, how many of you and ask people to raise their hand So raise your hand if you came from a pregnant person And you know everybody raises their hand By the way, it's the same number of people then I later say like how many of you know what phoma was and it's It's pretty powerful because You know regardless if this is something that you will experience personally You will you will work with a pregnant person and you came from a pregnant person So I feel like it's a topic that's table stakes Um, and I agree with you I even found in my own personal experience that the resource didn't exist specifically with work There are so many awesome pregnancy resources But you know the one question everybody Googles is how to tell my boss I'm pregnant but there's so much more than that So I thought how can I pull it all together in one single resource that can fit into all of these other amazing ones They can focus on health and can focus on return to work Um and can focus on fertility. There's a lot of other really powerful content But I felt the need to fill the gap specifically with regards to work and the pre part which you know It's it's a it's a little bold move, but I will tell you college rich men and women at Gen Z They want to talk about it. They're totally on board. They're thinking about work in life in such a different way um Then we did and I think it's incredibly inspiring. I love this um where can people Uh go get the book where can people connect with you where where do you want to send people all the links all the all the socials all that So you can follow along on Instagram on carry strong pregnancy You can visit the carrystrongproject.com which has lots of places where you can buy the book or you can go to your favorite bookseller um and and please you know the the most important thing is also the review so I hope you enjoy the book um and certainly I want to make sure that people are discovering it and the personal residence that you have with it But I'm really excited about this. I hope that it can help you know Just a few individuals especially that are going through something that can feel like a silent and brave roller coaster um and so you know Please uh encourage you carry strong and empowered approach navigating pregnancy and work Okay, perfect. Do you want to drop your own socials or you just want to send people to the to the book for now I want to send them to the book because I feel like I want to create the conversation there All right, I got you. No words You can follow me on LinkedIn um as well, but yeah, I want to I want to create that. That sounds good last question I ask everyone um at this point in your life you've had incredible career success family success um What does success mean to you? So you know, I talked a little bit earlier about um About purpose and my purpose Really has been focused especially in the past several years on unconstrained potential So how can I help to even work like unconstrained potential and scale of business or you know Make make sure that my sons feel like they can be the best version of themselves or as a professor like I don't want to create robots and communicators But how do I help people feel the best so that they can be you know their best version of themselves and certainly with the book I want to unconstrained the potential of women of recognizing what we all carry But that you can do it and you can you can in fact um come out even stronger on the other side But now for me success is when I help to create tailwinds Like when I am not just Unconstraining, but in fact are helping to fuel Something bigger um fueling innovation But watching other success and I've kind of always felt that way even full circle to your question about my jobs Yeah But that is where I get the most tremendous amount of joy and I feel incredibly blessed that I've had so much personal success And certainly it hasn't come without tough stuff and uh some tenacity, but it's Truly because of others so if I can do that then that's what success looks like for me