Dr. Michael Greger - Founder of NutritionFacts.org | The Anti-Aging Diet

There's more calories from fat than protein in checking these days. It's just absolutely extraordinary. Never too late to start eating healthy. Never too late to start. Movies are good news this. We have tremendous power. The vast majority of death and disability is preventable with a healthy love balance. Today's guest, Dr. Michael Greger, isn't just a physician. He's a force of nature in the fight for better health and a sustainable planet, from exposing the dangers of mad cow disease to building the renowned nutrition facts.org. Dr. Greger has spent his career challenging conventional wisdom about food and advocating for a whole food plant-based diet. Kids these days, thousands of commercials, breakfast, candy, cereal. Why isn't there ads for kids for healthier foods? It's not because we want to make kids sick, but we want to make money. The single most important decision to make about death and disability for ourselves and our family is what to eat. Permanent weight loss requires permanent dietary change. He's testified before Congress, taken on billion dollar industries, and written multiple best-selling books, including How Not to Die and How Not to Diet, which have changed the lives of millions. In this episode, we dive into the science, the skeptics, and the passion-driving Dr. Michael Greger to change how we eat and live forever. With ever goals you have in life, you need good health. It's never too late. Same healthy behavior at age 80. You're not going to get the same beneficial effects. We want to start as early as possible. We're going to get all that benefit. Any amount of exercise is better than that. How bad alcohol consumption in your diet and your life and your longevity. Everyone agrees that heavy drinking, drink during pregnancy, and binge-drinking bad ideas, but... Welcome to success story. I'm your host, Scott Clary. The success story podcast is part of the HubSpot podcast network. HubSpot not only supports the show, but they support entrepreneurs. That's why it's such a huge fan of HubSpot. And I'm very grateful for HubSpot for supporting the show because they help entrepreneurs. And as a fellow entrepreneur, I know it takes a lot to grow your business, a lot of audience attracting, a lot of sales, a lot of marketing, a lot of leads scoring, a lot of channel management, a lot of content, a lot of long days, late nights, a lot of weekends, a lot of wishing there wasn't easier way. But there is. With Breeze, this is HubSpot's new collection of AI tools. It's easier than ever for marketers, for entrepreneurs to attract audiences, to increase leads, to score customers, and to close deals fast, which means pretty soon your company will have a lot to celebrate. Visit HubSpot.com, slash marketers to learn more. I'm very excited that you're on today. There's gonna be a lot of fun. I think, even before we press record, I asked, you know, what's the thing that you want to get out of the show today? And I think your answer was absolutely perfect. And I think that we just start there. So, if you could just sum up all of your life's work, in one sentence, in a couple sentences, what would that be? What would that be? What would that be? Well, it's that we have the power. One needn't make drastic changes in one's diet and lifestyle is not all or nothing, right? Even basic. Common sense behaviors like daily exercise, more fruits and vegetables, not smoking, not being overweight, can mean, you know, living a decade longer, right? And it's never too late. It's never too late to start eating healthy or never too late to start moving, we never too late to stop smoking. The good news is, is that we have tremendous power over our health destiny and longevity that the vast majority of death and disability is preventable with a health enough diet and lifestyle. So, where do you think people get health and wellness wrong? Where do you think people get confused or frustrated because you ask not just the people that teach it. You ask five people what their diet is and they have different answers. And they'll be very dedicated, almost zealot-like about their answers. So, why is that? Well, it's because it's big business, right? So, the food industry. I mean, talk about, you know, selling something that people need, something perishable, something they need to every day, multiple times a day. No wonder, like, the processed food industry is a trillion dollar industry globally. It's a tremendous amount of power and profit that is dependent on getting people to kind of eat their brand of crap, right? And so, it's not like the, you know, the CEO of Coca-Cola is rubbing their sticky little hands together, thinking, how can I contribute to the childhood obesity epidemic? They are thinking how to my best contribute to, you know, next quarterly profits for my shareholders. In fact, that was just, I just finished a book on Ozempic. And there's this amazing story about Pepsi. The head of Pepsi, they brought it a new CEO. And the CEO was like, we're going to, started a brand of like, more healthy products. They didn't call it more healthy. They called it like, I don't know. There's something like, you know, less benign, won't kill you and it was the former CEO that did that, of course, emphasis on former. I mean, so it's just like, it's not about, it's not about, you know, conscience or good or bad. It's just like, this is how the system works, right? It's, you know, you know, a bottle of, you know, brown sugar water is pure profit. In fact, it's taxpayer subsidized sugar, where we make sugar artificially cheap. And so then it's like sugar water. And so, oh my god, it's been for like a few bucks a bottle. It's like all profit, right? So like the worst thing you want to sell is something like produce, right? For instance, vegetables, right? It goes bad. It rots on the shelf. It's perishable. You want a snack cake that sits on the shelf for a few months. That's how you make money for your stockholders. So it's not like there's some vast conspiracy. It's like, wow, let's not sell sweet potatoes. But the reason you're not going to see an ad on TV for sweet potatoes, because it's not branded. They'll just buy their competitors sweet potatoes or something like the whole system is set up to reward the selling of this, you know, ultra-press-ass crap. That's where the money is. And so, and it's so unfortunately, people just aren't, you know, are you bombarded all day by ads for fast food and candy and junk food? Or are you bombarded all day with, you know, Swiss chard advertisements everywhere? You look, oh my god. I mean, it's just, it's just that's, you know, I know. I mean, you know, kids these days, thousands of commercials for, you know, breakfast, candy cereal, kind of marshmallow, fluorescent. What are we doing? Why aren't there ads for kids for healthier foods? It's not because we want to make kids sick, but we want to make money. So, when you're trying to fight against an industrial complex, is the only, is the only answer education? Is that the, because if I look at all the problems with, like not problems, if I look at the fact that it seems like healthier food is more expensive. And you hear this again and again and again. And it costs more to go get a salad at Puravita than it does to go to McDonald's. And then people just, don't have tons of money to spend, or they're already, you know, they're already nickel and diamond because they're, they're trying to figure out how to make their family work and the kids' education, and the mortgage or the rent. And then food seems to come secondary as a budgetary item. So, is there, is there cheap, convenient ways to eat healthy? Or is it just about educating so people understand that money spent is money worth spent, because it's going to give them 10 extra years on their life? So, it's really both. First of all, the healthiest foods on the plant are some of the cheapest foods on the plant, right? Superditos, red cabbage, apples, dried beans, lentils, like literally, like the dirt cheap sources of protein, pecked the fireball. I mean, really, that all these foods are really the two, you know, particularly on a, kind of, per serving basis. In fact, there's all sorts of estimates out there, you know, have people starting to eat healthier diets. It's about 25% cheaper on average so that I could save hundreds of dollars over a year. So, you know, they're not buying, you know, organic, boutique, gluten-free, vegan, don't answer some things, right? They're buying, you know, I mean, they're buying real food. Real food, what a concept. In fact, produce is often a lost leader. First of all, it's things you don't make money on produce, but they're just hoping, you know, come through the checkout line and get the chips in the soda, where all the money's really being made. They just want to draw you in the store. And so, we can kind of beat the system by just, you know, staying around the periphery of the grocery store, getting the good stuff. And, you know, just, you know, self-checkout without the garbage, without the candy in our face, whatever. And without the checkout magazines that tell us about the latest wonder drug for weight loss, the latest crazy diet or, you know, weight loss plan or God knows. In fact, that's when you, you know, you ask people why they eat, you know, as a physician. It's like, you know, I'm like, oh, why are you eating? Oh, yes, I'm due to the gym. Tell me about it. Are they read about it so much? Like, you realize that the single most important decision in your life is really what to eat. So, we'll be wearing the Z-Stide, the largest study of disease risk factors in human history. Number one, cause of death. And the United States is the American diet, bumping tobacco smoke into number two. Cigarettes only go about a half million Americans every year, worse or diet, kills many more, so the single most important decision to make about death and disability for ourselves and our family is what to eat. And you're making that decision based on what exactly? Right? Now, the opinions of, like, total random strangers can actually be useful. You know, you're online shopping and someone talks about a toaster and you're like, oh, that was helpful, right? Okay, but we're talking about life and death decisions. Then if there's any decision in life to want to be based on a modicum of evidence, then that really should be. If you're going to spend any time looking into something, it really should be, you know, how to best take care of ourselves and our families and that really comes down to what to eat. So put a little effort into figuring out what's actually true and the best available balance of evidence suggests that, you know, the healthiest foods we should center our diets around and the healthiest foods on the planet, are these whole plant foods. So we're minimizing, you know, processed foods and meat, dairy, sugar, eggs, and salt, maximizing fruits, vegetables, legumes, or bean splippies, chickpeas, and lentils, whole grains, nuts, and seeds, mushrooms, herbs, and spices, basically real food that grows out of the ground from fields, not factories. These are our healthiest choices. So when you look at all the different diets that people take on, because they'll take on, like, to lose weight. On health and wellness, they want to go and lose weight. And then obviously let's, let's hope they add the gym or some sort of physical activity into that mix. But then there's, there's keto, there's paleo, there's, I guess more of a traditional food pyramid where you have lower fats, moderate proteins, moderate carbs. You have all these different diets. I'm sure there's others that I, I've never tried or can't think of right now. But you're saying that the best possible diet for overall health and I would assume there's a way to combine that into weight loss as well, because that is a huge contributor to health and wellness. If you're obese and you have to lose a little bit of weight, would be whole foods. You, you mentioned whole foods take priority over, like, even proteins, which are meats, excuse me, which is interesting. So if you could help somebody just understand not just why nutrient dense foods are good for longevity, but why nutrient dense foods are a key piece of, for example, like a weight loss diet or somebody trying to get back on track. How does that, how does that play into it? Because I think that, the whole is epic rays and the thing that is the most urgent important in people's minds is how do I look better, a little bit better, and how do I fit into a, a slightly smaller size of clothing? Regardless of whether or not that's to be their main priority because I think longevity is a pretty damn good priority as well. That's the reality that people deal with. People jump on these fat diets. Yeah, diets don't work by definition because going on a diet implies at some point you're going to be going off a diet, right? Permanent weight loss requires permanent dietary change. Healthier habits just have to become a way of life and so if they're going to be life long, you want them to lead it to a long life. You know, these are the goal of weight loss is not to fit into a skinnier casket, right? Thankfully, the good news is is that the single best diet proven for weight loss just so happens to be the safest cheapest weighting for the longest healthiest life. And that is a whole food blend based diet shown in the broad study. To be the single most effective weight loss diet ever published in a pair of your medical literature that didn't restrict portions ever. So the most effective diet also happens to be the healthiest diet when it comes to longevity. This is the diet that every single blue zone centers their diets on. There's been over 150 dietary surveys in the world's longest living populations. I mean, they all center their diets around these whole plant foods, eating about 95% plant-based and centering the primary protein source as one of the legumes, beans, blueberries, chickpeas, or lentils. And that's, so when you look at all the different diets out there, I know that you don't like low carb diets or no carb diets. I know that that's something that you don't subscribe to. So if you look at the ratios of legumes, that's the majority of your diet. How do you think about the other pieces? What are the healthier carbs or, I mean, carbs and other legumes as well? But the healthier carbs and the healthier proteins, like, are you including rice? Are you including potatoes? I guess sweet potato? Are you including any kind of meat at all? And if so, what meat would be the best to fit into that perfect ideal diet? Yeah, no, no. I'm so glad it really has to be like, you know, the food industry, the processed food industry. Love talking about macros. Why? Because they can make you any kind of junk food you want. You want low fat junk food? Boom. Snack well cookies. You want low carb junk food? Boom. We got that. You want ironically paleo junk food? Oh, we'll give you that too, right? The one kind of junk that can't make is real food, right? They just can't make money on food. So they don't want you to talk about foods. They want you to talk about macronutrients. Because oh, oh, they want you to talk about nutrients, right? That's why fruit loops has 13 vitamins and minerals, right? Right on the cover, right? As if, you know, eating marshmallows for breakfast is the way to get your, the only way to get your, you know, 13 vitamins and minerals. But okay, so it's not so look, I mean, you know, you know, carbohydrates can mean kidney beans or jelly beans, right? I mean, you know, you can't just talk about our carbs good or bad, right? Protein could be, you know, pork rinds or, you know, could be, you know, you know, fats could be, you know, you know, crisco, trans fats or walnuts or something, right? And so we have to talk about food, right? That's what we, we don't need nutrients being food. Okay, so when we talk about foods, the healthiest sources of protein are legumes, but also whole grains and other disease can contribute. We're looking at point agrants, we're healthy, a little ground body weight, we're just an official recommendation, natural calories and signs. In terms of carbohydrates and healthiest, again, whole plant foods and the healthiest source of all three class of macronutrients, where are we going to get our fats? From ideally, most of them not disease, where are we going to get our carbohydrates from? We are going to get them from, you know, from, you know, whole grains, sweet potatoes, be great. White potatoes would not be a good source. No. As one of the few whole plant foods actually associated with increased risk of disease, including diabetes, and stay away from the refined grains like white rice, etc. And so that's, and now in terms of, in terms of meat, right, we should really try to primarily plant, but not necessarily exclusively plants, right? A plant-based diet is really just about maximizing the intake of the healthiest foods, right? It's a physician, you know, these labels like vegetarian or vegan, that just tells me what you don't eat. I mean, do you actually eat vegetables, right? And of course, it doesn't matter what you eat in your birthdays, holidays, special occasions, right? The day-to-day stuff that adds up on day-to-day basis really should try to be healthy, centering our diets around natural foods. The best meats would be a wild, wild game. So venison in Australia, kangaroo, so extraordinarily late, right? Like, you know, moose elk, like four percent calories from fat. So, and why we care about fat calories is because we care about saturated animal fat, reason our LDL cholesterol is primary risk factor for a number one killer of men and women, heart disease. But four percent, in fact, chicken used to be only two percent fat 100 years ago according to USDA. Now, it's over 20 percent fat. We've selectively bred these animals to be extra juicy. And how do we make them, you know, we marble their flesh with the saturated fat. That's why, sort of, for example, grass fed beef, a significantly less saturated fat, and then grain fed cattle. And so, it would be kind of the leaner the better, would be way the go. And there's just nothing even comes close to the leaner of game. And of course, it would be caught with lead-free ammunition if you're doing it on your own. Wow, okay, amazing. And I think that that even is, that's so telling that even chicken, that everybody assumes is the healthiest. There's more calories from fat than protein in chicken these days. I mean, it's just absolutely extraordinary. Wow. In fact, beef in the tree loves all of it on money. Yeah, well, you can do studies now where you can randomize people to eat beef versus chicken. And see no difference in cholesterol where their whole sentence, oh, get ready to read me, go over to, you know, why be? No, because you can get a leaner cut of beef. Then you can actually get, you know, eating, you know, eating a thigh or something. So, so yeah, yeah, so, so yeah, if you can find it, you know, something like a grass-fed beef. It's probably probably the easiest kind of, it's not, I mean, that's not close as well cut game, but in terms of, you know, what you can find out there. And not everybody's going out with lead-free ammunition and hunting. They're all thinking they're trying to figure it out. Oh, they're formed. There's farmed medicine. Yeah. You know, I mean, you should, I don't know, you could probably buy the learn. But the point is, the point is, you have to, you have to learn and you have to do your own research because the things that are marketed to us as healthy are definitely not always healthy. I'm very curious because you've written both how not to die and how to age, how not, sorry, how not to die and how not to age, excuse me, not how to age, how not to age. When you compare those two ideas, what to you is the difference between not dying and not aging? Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. So if you do autopsies of centenarians, those are limited to over 100. This is a survey of 13,000 autopsies. In every single case, death was from disease. Even though they paired perfectly healthy before dying, their doctors were like, oh, clean bill of health. If you actually cut them open, every single one died from disease. And most commonly hard disease, which is number one killer of those, you know, younger than that. And so if death is from disease, then, you know, why wasn't my book, you know, how not to die? All, you know, all you need as an anti-aging book, because it was just first half of the book is just 15 chapters, east of the 15 leading cause of death, talking about the world dying and playing preventing, resting, reversing each of our top 15 killers. And so it's like, well, then, I mean, if you check off the boxes, what's the problem? Well, it turns out that I mean, the single greatest risk factor for many of these diseases is actually aging, such that even if all cancer were cured overnight, we would only increase average lifespan by about three years. You see, why? Because if one age related disease doesn't kill you, another one will. The only reason you died from cancer, you didn't die from a heart attack is because you died from cancer first, but you were gonna die in our next month from a heart attack anyway. And so, yes, you know, having a high cholesterol can increase your risk of having a heart attack as much as 24, but, you know, an 80 year old has 500 times the risk as an 18 year old in terms of our disease. And because aging affects so many different diseases, if we slow down the aging process, then you can instead of playing whack them all, which each individual disease, you can reduce your risk of kind of age related disease across the board, which are many related killers. So when you see when you sort of all of your work and all the teachings really just like you're eating whole foods, you're trying to slow down your aging, you shouldn't have the food contributing to you dying quick or got for a bit. But when you look at people like, for example, Brian Johnson, who's doing everything under the sun to reverse aging, aging, what percentage of all the stuff that he does actually slows down aging versus if you just ate a whole food diet? Well, so one thing he does is eat a point based diet. And so I mean, that's one of the things is actually evidence based. I mean, then he just tries all sorts of crazy crap that doesn't have any, you know, evidence base and look good for him, right? I mean, you know, I mean, it's kind of interesting experimental data kind of as a guinea pig, I certainly wouldn't do have the things. Someone just told me he just did plasma for races, we basically like remove all the liquid portion of your blood and like when placed with like, you know, out of the water or something, that's just like, that is like naughty. I mean, that's what you do when people are like dying from some like horrible, you know, voice. Yeah, I think I saw that on his Instagram. It was absolutely, absolutely amazing. And then yeah, that's how we do that voluntarily. But it's like, you know, he's like doing it for science. God damn it. And okay, I just know all people to go out there and necessarily following those footsteps until we can actually prove something is useful. But no, he is doing some things that are just, you know, that really are consistent with lunch. Every leisure, he just kind of takes it an extra step too far, kind of be on beyond the evidence base. But that's how we learn new things as we kind of go beyond the evidence base and kind of try things out. But it's, it's always go ahead. I have another question for you, but go ahead and I'll ask it off. Yeah, yeah, no, no. So I mean, I don't want to, you know, I mean, what I love is that he's interested. He actually cares about ourselves as he doing something about it. And we can definitely, I don't think we have to go get that obsessed. But I mean, you know, just the fact that he wakes up every day and says, you know, how can I, you know, kind of best support what I want to do in life? And wherever you want, whatever your goals are, even your goals are, I want to sit on the couch for the rest of my life and play video games. You can't do that if you had a stroke. You can't do that. If, you know, I mean, so, you know, whatever goals you have in life, you need good health. How are you going to get good health? Number one is what we eat. Number two is cigarettes center of lifestyle falls about, I think number seven down to the list. But there's certainly so much of it is really within our control. And that's really the good news. And I think that's people underestimate the power of dying lifestyle to actually affect disease. This is both patients and physicians alike. So the people on these lifestyle drugs, like cholesterol, lowering drugs or blood pressure, lowering drugs, blood sugar, lowering drugs. If you look at the absolute risk reduction, I mean, it's minuscule, right? You have someone sit at high risk for hard disease, they've already had a heart attack, trying to prevent another attack. Over the next five years, they take a high dose statin drug, reduce their absolute risk maybe two and a half percent. So there's like one and 67 chance that they would actually benefit from the drug. And so on an individual scale, you know, you're going to be the one and 67th person. But of course, on a population scale, these drugs say thousands of lives, very important, et cetera. But it's just like, well, if you knew how little these drugs are actually helping you, then you might put a little more thought into what's raising your cholesterol in the first place. Which is after a vet, transvest, after a cholesterol, lack of fiber. And so eating health here, we can have, we can kind of treat the underlying cause of these diseases. So you don't have to take drugs every day for the rest of your life. That don't even work very well. 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Listen to my first million wherever you get your podcasts. Well, I think that's so so two thoughts. So first of all, the Brian Johnson experiments and whether or not I mean he's doing so much and there's no evidence to back any of this up yet. But I think that the concern I have with him is somebody looks at him and they're like, well, I don't think that I want to do that stuff. And I don't want to remove my plasma and I don't I don't want to measure my nighttime boners every night and whenever the hell else he does. And then they're like, well, you know what, longevity is not for me. That's not a good message when you when he's like, I spend a X million dollars per year. Then all of a sudden it removes the average person from thinking that they can do any of the things that he does because it's financially not viable. It's it's the the things that they do outside of just being way too expensive. It's just weird and uncomfortable for the average person to even think about doing that. So then they just throw up their hands and they don't do anything. That's it. That's the that's the that's the that's the takeaway from Brian Johnson, I think for 99% of the population, even though he's doing good work. The average person sitting at home is going to be like, well, you know what, that's insane. So you know what I'm going to do. I'm going to jump on drugs. I mean, I mean, I'm actually worried about that in one aspect with my aging book, right, 13,000 citations. This is this massive tone. And I'm afraid it's going to intimidate people out out of making those basic simple common sense lifestyle behaviors that actually do most of the most of the heavy lifting. So, you know, you can get 80% of the way there just by not smoking, you know, eating more fruits and vegetables, you know, you're not being overweight. And daily monitor intensity exercise. And so like that's 80%. Now look, if you want to work on the last 20% or less, like half percent, like Brian Johnson, oh my God, go for it. That's great. Right. But, you know, I mean, people think, oh, longevity is not for me. You're saying not smoking is not for you? No, it's like these really basic things can really get you like most of the way there. And so, you know, that would, in fact, that's how I conclude the book. I thought, okay, let's take a step back. Let's get on. I mean, it's real the basics. That's what we care about here. We don't want people to throw up their hands and kind of put crap in front of them and stuff. And then like, yeah, if you want to get into the nitty gritty of like skin creams and like all or whatever. I'll go there. I got there's lots of tons of stuff out there. But I just want the basics. It's really, you know, nothing fancy, nothing expensive. It's like walking 20 minutes a day. That kind of thing. Talk to me about because we just we just highlighted like how inefficient drugs are, which is actually also scary because that was sort of my second thought. If drugs have such a low success rate, then you're giving people this false, this false sense of security. Right. Knowing fact has what's called a licensing effect. And so if you give people, in fact, you randomize people to, to so called vitamins or placebo. And you tell people, they're actually both placebo. But you tell people they're eating vitamins to actually eat worse foods at a buffet. And all you need to buffet. It's being secretly filmed. And then if you they didn't take the quote unquote vitamins because they feel like I've done something good for my life. I'm going to have an after serving a pudding or something. It's just like that's just human psychology. And so it's like, oh, high cholesterol. No problem. I'll take a drug. That's bringing out. Okay. It's good that it's bringing it down and reducing your your risk. But, I mean, you know, that's in addition to treating the underlying costs you can dramatically reduce your risk. Because look, number one killer is nothing more important than getting our LDL as low as possible. You can do that. You can do that with drugs. But you can also do it then last time and then exercise and everything else you recommend. And we're seeing better right now. I work seem better. Then these drugs in terms of maintaining and having, you know, this this painfully affects not just you know the same diet that loads your cholesterol and your blood sugar and your, you know, blood pressure. You know, the heart healthy diet is a long healthy diet is a liver healthy diet. So can you have the same diet right because any diet obviously there opens up arteries improves blood flow. Obviously going to help all the organs of the body get rid of waste, get oxygen nutrients, you know, any anti inflammatory diet which is actually synonymous with the whole plant based diet is going, you know, the cost inflammation plays role in so many different diseases, certain cancers, heart disease diabetes. So obviously the anti inflammatory diet is going to have this, you know, variety of benefits, anything good for the microbiome right any diet with lots of prebiotics dietary fiber resistance starts is going to support your microbiome, which makes these, you know, so called postbiotics like beauty right that you get absorbed through our gut wall into our system have anti inflammatory effects. A booster immune function can even affect our mental health really extraordinary so no wonder you know fiber the only was only found in plant foods. A fiber a high fiber diet can have all these beneficial effects is because unlike drugs which target like a specific enzyme or specific kind of pathway within the body they affect many kind of organ systems at the same time. A lot of entrepreneurs are in this audience and one thing that a lot of entrepreneurs including myself care about they care about focus they care about energy they care about not crashing at four o'clock. So I think the answer is on the on the low end just over caffeinating and on the high end new tropics and other drugs to try and focus and feel like they can always be on and be optimized so how does diet how does even this particular diet or is there certain recommendations for somebody that. Does have to be cognitively present and cognitively on for a significant portion of their day how does that diet impact your energy levels in your focus. Yes so there have been foods individual foods that have been shown to improve cognition in randomized double and possible control trials which are very difficult to do with food because people tend to notice what they eat but for example you can randomize. Kids to have a smoothie with freeze dried while blueberries versus you know a blueberry flavored and colored powder that you can't tell the difference is you have and you randomize them to smoothies and have significantly better test scores on the real blueberries compared to the fake blueberries even though they're carb match and calorie match and everything and so there are foods like blueberries. And other brightly colored berries with things these anthocyan and pigments that cross the blood brain barrier and and and are the reason why we see these benefits in cognition and then the second group of compounds. These are kind of brain targeting pigments found in dark green leafy vegetables and somebody in greens and berries we can get significant cognitive benefits you can do brain scans you can actually show the improvement and blood flow in the brain. And so there are even certain foods not just a die in general so you can do super crappy diet but have some spinach and actually have an improvement in cognition but ideally right since you know most of cells in our body actually replaced year after year you know if you imagine you know we're rebuilding our entire body essentially every year what are we going to build it with. Right shotty building materials and we get through the drive through right it's like we literally are what we eat we are made of you know food water sunlight air like there's not much that goes in and so it's like people take better care of their cars and they care their body right it's like all you want to use like the you know the clean fuel you know the expensive well whatever oh my god think about your you can get a new fucking car your car breaks down worst comes the worst you can't do that with your mind. Not yet you know but right now this is all we get and so in a lot of these age-related factors are irreversible right like once nerve cells die they're dead you know once a certain amount of fibiotic scar tissue it's just you know you're going to lose that lung function period it's not coming back. There are certainly things you can do but there's some structural changes and so it's like you want to get that those you want to prevent in the first place right as a invention worth a pound of cure. Look we got entrepreneurs here think about compound interest one of those beautiful things right compound interest worse with health too right the same healthy dietary or lifestyle behavior. Made today's 20 or 30 or 40 it the benefits a crew overturned so yes it's still it's never too late to start in healthy but you know you know the same healthy behavior at age 80 oh you're not going to get the same beneficial effects we want to start as early as possible and we're going to get all that benefit. And yes so so I mean that was that was going to be one of my questions so when you when you start this diet it doesn't matter what age you're at have you seen or even talk about some stories about if somebody follows the type of diet that you're prescribing kind of to a tea. What are some of the effects that you've seen in people's lies with their health their wellness their cholesterol levels are like what are the markers of anti aging that you've actually seen when somebody adopts this kind of this kind of diet. Right one need needs need go to anecdotes right we actually have these blue zones these five blue zones of exceptional longevity around the world have up to 10 times rates of centenarians so we can see how they live so we have these active people fact i'm just speaking. Two weeks at Loma Linda which is the only remaining blue zone left all the others have been you know replaced by KFC and but there's one remaining blue zone on the planet that's like the 70th Adventist Loma Linda California longest live population in human history that's been formally studied and going to you know go speedy so we actually have real living people right so they have you know the centenary insurgent there at the medical center right. I mean that is crazy like still working every day and that this is the diet the reading this is the diet that they're oh and so right that is the diet so yeah so they so the right there so they you know it's interesting not only do they plan back for us but they also practice this kind of early time restricted feeding which may play a role in their longevity so lunch tends to be breakfast lunch tends to be the biggest meal of the day they're shoving as many calories earlier in the day as possible if you're skipping any meal you should skip supper now breakfast just because of our quantum biology are better. Our bodies better able to deal with junk in the morning the exact same meal in the morning causes less accumulation of body fat than the exact same meal same number of calories even at night I'm lower tried blister eyes lower blood sugar so yeah earlier the better and so that may be one of the many things contributing to their. I'm also just curious for the last bastion of blue zone in the world how does this group in in California like what why is there no why is there no shitty food in this area like what what was the thing that yeah no no yeah that's interesting that's a fantastic question so all the other blue zones in the world historically have been in isolated place mostly islands or in the case Corsarica this hard to get to archipelago. So basically they couldn't get junk they couldn't get tobacco they couldn't get sugar they couldn't get junk food and so they're forced to like god damn it we actually have to like you know form and stuff and so you know 70% by calories of the Okinawan diet sweet potatoes they live on a vegetable based diet sweet potato based diet right most of protein soy a few servings of fish a week but 98% plant based diet a second longest living population until all the sudden. Um you know they they now it's actually the baddest prefecture in in Japan some of the worst public health statistics more fast food joins anywhere else because they basically westernized their diets and so and so that's what happened with all the blue zones as they finally had access to everything we got access to in the like bring it on baby. Um and so the difference what what the difference in the Loma Linda Bluzum is they have this religious conviction the Adventists have interpret the Bible that their bodies a temple and that they are like doing good things for God if they take care of themselves. And so part of their religion is to is a healthy diet and lifestyle. Um and so that's what keeps even though they're surrounded by the same junk everybody else have um their faith keeps them eating healthy. Um and so that's how they're able to stick with it um but you know whether or not uh regardless of your faith you can still treat yourself well. Um and they just show that even in today's modern world you can still remain healthy if you just you know puts them effort into it. You don't love supplements and I understand why I think supplements are probably full of a lot of filler and garbage if people don't even realize they're putting into their body. Are there any supplements first of all we can talk about outside of what I just mentioned why supplements are so bad and I'm sure you have a lot of thoughts on that but are there any that are any good at all or is it all garbage. And it's kind of uh the the the supplement industry is still poorly poorly regulates really kind of the wild west out there and so you do you know studies of what's actually in many of these supplements often they don't have the ingredients actually listen on the label and that's the best case you know sometimes they have you know band drugs or you know blah blah particularly in the weight loss arena and kind of sexual performance arena. Um just tainted by all sorts of contaminants you know want if it has anything active at all blah blah blah okay but um there are some third party certification um so um uh from uh USP certification for example um uh they you know uh don't step to ads or kind of any money so basically if you have something that's USP certified then what's in the bottle is what's on the label doesn't mean it's good for you right but it doesn't mean it helps. But it's just telling you that it's like truth and advertising and so that's why I encourage people to look for and so there's lots of I mean depending on who you are alcoholics or pregnant people there's all sorts of things that that specific circumstances where you need specific supplements but for in general. Probably the one that most people need is vitamin D the sunshine vitamin people get inadequate sun exposure think about it we evolved running around half naked and equatorial Africa um and uh we're just not meant to wear clothes or be inside all the time we're living these crazy latitudes such that most people get in an equate son of short if you get enough sun exposure you don't need to take any supplements whatsoever um but most people should probably taking 2000 international units of vitamin D three um to get ones levels up. To optimal um uh so that's probably the most common supplement out there certainly if you're reading a plant based diet the kind of diet that encouraged people to eat one needs to get a regular reliable source of vitamin B12 critically important um and you can get that with um uh vitamin B12 supplements or vitamin B12 fortified foods. And you just mentioned something too uh you mentioned alcoholics and obviously you don't you don't want to you don't want to encourage alcohol to that level but for somebody who's just drinking the glass of wine is that any good is there any benefit to that like how bad uh in is moderate alcohol consumption in your diet and your life and your longevity. So that is a great question you know everyone agrees that heavy drinking during pregnancy and binge drinking bad ideas but there has been this controversy about moderate drinking those who tend to live the longest are not the upstairs who drink zero alcohol but um those then buy a few drinks a week unfortunately this appears to be an artifact what's called the sick quitter effect which rises from the systematic misclassification of former drinkers as if they were lifelong upstairs so basically the same reason you can find studies. With higher mortality rates of those who quit smoking committed those exchange of smoke you say where you singing how's that paying any sense well it's not that abstention led to poor health but poor health led to abstention why do people quit smoking oh my god they just got diagnosis some horrible thing and so you can find a higher um late rates of liver cirrhosis in non drinkers in these studies why because why are they drinking they'd love to be drinking but they got liver like dying or liver cirrhosis okay. So if you go back and correct for that if you correct and you just look at drinkers versus lifelong abstiners right not people who quit because they got sick then indeed um uh there's no benefit anymore to to moderate levels or light level like drinking and so according to the Goldburn disease state of the world health organization and the World Heart Federation the safest level of drinking is none unfortunately because alcohol is a carcinogen turns to something called acid aldehyde in the body. Which is carcinogenic um and so you know uh you know grapes barley potatoes best eaten they're non distilled form Johnny Walker no substance for actual walking and is that and then you just you just line up the next quite you're very good you're just lining up the next question okay. So then I know you I know you speak a lot about just going for walks as a as a form of exercise I mean is there better forms of exercise are there is going to the gym and and deadlifting and bench pressing three to four times a week is that good or should that be something that you do in tandem with some cardiovascular exercise should you be doing Hill sprints or is walking good enough like there's so many different versions of this and I think the people probably do the thing that they enjoy the most but outside of enjoying something the most what in terms of longevity should they be doing all of the above absolutely so I think the important thing said look it doesn't matter if you're not going to do it if it's not sustainable then you know what's the point right I mean it's just like it's like you can white knuckle some horrible diet for for what but you know it's not going to be sustainable right So you have to find diet they are seeing joy right similarly have to find exercise to enjoy any amount of exercise is better than none that's a critical thing but the problem with the reason why the official exercise recommendations are only average about 20 minutes a day modern tends to the activity is be caught and they're explicit about this is that don't want to intimidate people and have people throw their hands up at the air not to any right and so if you actually look at the data you know half an hour is better than 15 minutes 45 is better than a half an hour 60 is better than 45 in 90 minutes a day a modern intensity activity or 45 minutes of vigorous is the associated with the longer with the best longevity and maybe even more than that but they're just so kind enough people exercising 90 more than 90 minutes a day to actually study these people but we have studies with increasing benefit up to at least 90 minutes of modern intensity activity a day and so I think we should just tell people the truth right it's anything with diet they would try to soft pedal that you know we don't want to you know get to you know but look tell people the truth but step but emphasizing any is better than not even just eating fruit more fruits and vegetables regardless of what you're eating can be beneficial and again any even as little as 15 minutes of walking which is like 4400 steps a day associated with low risk premature death I mean the overall health benefits of exercise are absolutely overwhelming not only increasing muscle mass and strengths balance mobility decreasing risk of falls but that's just the beginning right exercise can improve cognition can improve enhanced mood can treat depression improve artery function rectile function in some sensitivity overall quality of life and so the recommendation is combining strength training resistance exercise with a robot exercise and and also bounce training as the third component which critically important particularly later in life for preventing falls and breaking bones I want to take a second to 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30 minutes and you're going to stop buying shit at the grocery store that's in packages and boxes and you're going to spend more time love it and then I think that that's really because I think that people get overwhelmed I see it I mean I come from a sports background not I mean if you if you are in sports you're kind of in like health and wellness and nutrition already but I come from like a sports background not a not a medical background and I think the biggest you know thing that I've seen with people trying to get back into the gym is they don't go for a year then they bust their ass January second and then they're in so much pain they don't go again for a year. Exactly so it's it's it's all in moderation and I think that that's probably the healthiest way to build new habits is we're not talking about have a formation but if you really want to build new habits I mean you can't be you can't be burning yourself out day zero or it's never going to step. Yeah it doesn't matter what you eat tomorrow or next week or you know or next month it's like what are you going to eat for the next few decades and something with exercise right it doesn't matter how much you exercise tomorrow right it really is how can I incorporate make you know incorporate exercise as a daily habit and so it's like look if all I'm able to do this it's better to do that if you can keep it up day by day and then just add on it later on it's like okay how about we just have healthy breakfast right let's just have some oatmeal and berries and nuts and whatever okay and let's just start there and then the rest of the day God knows things get crazy okay fine or just like okay for between wherever the other man apple pear whatever I'm going to switch let's do water for beverages you know whatever these little things can have huge impacts on our long term health if we're able to stick with it and so you could argue well no it would be much healthier if you like went all in only if you stuck with it if you went all in for one day and then gave up then you're going to you know it's it's not going to make a difference if you do it for one day for the next at 70 years you're still going to be you eat and garbage or or not live in the life that you should be living yeah no absolute yeah yeah so I'm so glad you made that point now look some people psychology is different some people really are kind of all in all or nothing kind of people and really look crave that kind of look if I'm going to do it I'm going to go all you know the world people like that okay fine but I think for most people you know you know you know going at whatever pace is necessary to keep it up is probably the best idea tell me about your daily dozen tell me about these things and why they're so important because I mean you're always talking about whole food diet plant based diet but specifically these dozen items why are they so important yeah so the half hour how not to die is the 15 chapters and 15 leading cause the death but didn't want to just be kind of a reference book I wanted to be kind of practical day-to-day grocery store kind of guide and so that's the second half of the book where I sent it by recommendation during the daily dozen checklist of healthy activities or foods or activities kind of the healthiest of healthy so not just like fruits and vegetables every day but berries every day the healthiest fruits dark green leafy vegetables the healthiest vegetables cruciferous vegetables the broccoli family vegetables have you need compounds now for any found anywhere else within the food supply and there's some nutrients like vitamin C found very broadly throughout the plant kingdom so you can basically eat anything and get your vitamin C but the specific so the tables want to ground flexes every day because ligaments these anti cancer-fronted compounds basically only found in flexes you not get flexes you're not going to get these a court teaspoon of turmeric the best beverages how much exercise to get every day really just kind of inspire people to include some of the healthiest of healthy habits into their daily lives it's available as a free app on on Android doctor Greggers daily dozen it's just kind of a checklist to just kind of track your progress over time and you know and so it's and just to remind people it's like oh I didn't eat any legumes today I really said oh I'm going to put them hummus on something I throw some beans in my pasta or whatever and so you know just kind of this aspirational guide to you know think about some how can I make this meal healthier oh I can throw some pumpkin seeds on top all right cool that's it I mean like it that's kind of just like dovetailing off of just spoke about it's like how do you start thinking in the right way that's really it that's really it and this is this is thinking in the right way but also strategically about there's some things that are really going to have a major impact on your health right so there's just a few things right there's just a few things you can do like let's cut out soda let's cut out the process me the big and hemahendogs launch me right there's colorectal cancer risk the trans fats let's just add the berries the beans the you know the greens I mean just some little things to add little things to take away that'll take you a long way there what is the most dangerous widely accepted health advice that you wish people did not believe oh God oh well there's so much just batch it crazy stuff out there but in terms of dangerous I mean it can be batched crazy too if it's not helping it's well I mean probably probably by definition anything that's dangerous is probably bad to crazy you know there's all sorts of you know I did a series well certainly there's a lot of supplements supplements that are bad that cause liver toxicity there's this black sand stuff that people use for skin cancer burns holes and people's face doesn't actually do any good blah blah blah I mean things that are just like things that are just like literally killing people well I just did a series of videos oh I just did a thing on blue green algae right aquafos oh yeah this climate like moving algae it's like in green drinks and green protein bouders and they added everything makes it and stuff is toxic right and it's just like it's amazing to me but it's just like it doesn't it's a marketing thing like they know they didn't actually look to see if it's good for you or not they're just like oh people will love it if it looks this color or whatever these are huge companies though they don't I mean yeah oh my God yeah totally and they're making sense about it because people though it's it's all about marketing not about evidence right I mean you know it's just like what does the label look like right and so oh God there was this there was this there was this whole food plant-based delivery company I think called daily harvest and they put and they were doing some great prox they think and they were like oh we're gonna make lentil crumbles which is kind of like a ground beef substitute but it's like all whole foods great but they wanted to make it high protein because of course people have this obsession about protein as if people are dying of protein deficiency and so then they added tarot flour because they didn't want to add protein products that's like not a clean label and greedy right they want to add whole foods so they have this what's called tarot flour which is some South American seed that they just grind up and use germ okay oh thousands of people got sick hundreds of people got hospitalized this stuff is this toxic compound in it and but but they're so they just want to have things look good on the label as opposed to just like wait a second is this thing ever gotten the food supply before and so FDA after three years finally pulled status and now it's illegal to use this but it's just like what were you thinking you know it's crazy well I think that the scary part is you just mentioned FDA three years later I mean that that means for three years people thought this was a fully viable food they could consume it was generally recognized as safe and guess who gets to label a new food or new compounds generally recognized as safe the company themselves we put the company in charge if you want to introduce something new into the phone supply you have to it has to have generally recognize a safe status who determines that the FDA no the company themselves we give it up to the company and just let the company determine it and then yeah they may get sued later but you know whatever but that's just I mean it's just like talk about foxes in the henna house and so you know and so right you get these recalls only afterwards but yeah that's after people already got sick shouldn't things be determined to be safe before we feed it to people in fact just in in California the you know they just they just signed a law that by 2027 we're going to get rid of red number three finally banned everywhere else civilized in the world gang it lit of the the testing bromate was used in as a doe conditioner and breads again banned elsewhere it's stuff is toxic you know red number three cause the thyroid cancer getting and and it's just amazing that you know they can't be done on the federal level so find Californians doing it on a state level and presumably you know you know fruit loops is not going to make two kinds of fruit loops one for California consumers one for the rest so they're just going to get rid of you know red number three or whatever food died that's you know that's banned and so thankfully they're going to have this you know kind of nationwide effect but it shouldn't take a state to catch up with the rest of the world just because federal bureaucracy is so it has been so detuned which is good for the process food industry is good for the sub-ministry but it's not really good for consumers and the only protection against that if you can't even trust the FDA to act quickly enough is to just eat whole foods that's really it because if these if if somebody like this like you mentioned before this whatever this this company that was including this toxic ingredient and it took three years for the FDA to to say this is no longer any good I mean you it's just like playing roulette and I don't want to be like fear mongering but it just be good it's like playing roulette with what you pick up off the shelf which is super stressful for people like nobody wants that thought in the back of their head when they go shopping and it shouldn't be the case but and the food industry is like yeah yeah yeah yeah it's you know this this additive has been shown to be safe yeah until it's not so remember aspartame aspartame has been on the market since 81 I believe and oh just recently oh it's possibly carcinogenic right and finally there's enough data so it's like but it was like decades on the market thousands of different products and so yeah it's safe until it's not you know and so it's like maybe we should you know be a little bit more care be have this kind of cautionary principle yeah where it's almost kind of like guilt is to proven innocent right there's some new chemical being added to the food supply like maybe you know let somebody else eat it for a while to it no it's actually safe or not even not eat it like some of these ingredients like like red numbers some of these food dies literally have no benefit other than to just turn the foods different colors to mimic you know that's how you make strawberry pop tarts without strawberries right because you want to you know you have artificially flavored and colored but it's just like it's just being used to kind of fool the consumer to mimic real food why not just eat real food in the first place I agree the last thing that I really I mean you could probably talk about a million things because there's there's so many there's so many questions that people have about their health and wellness but I think they really pointed them in the right direction at least just to get started the last thing that I think is if you can just touch on this gut health and pro and probiotics and and how does that play into everything because I hear everybody talking to me about gut health and it's so important for all these you know health factors and it gets rid of all these different diseases and just tell me about how somebody should consider gut health in their in their wellness regime what foods they should eat is as important as you know it seems like it is give me a rundown yeah and so you know I think thankfully the microbiome is all the rage these days and people are really thinking about it but of course anytime there's this kind of a hot new topic then of course it's Monday to be made and so all the scammers come in try to sell you all sorts of nonsense and garbage and so and people you know they dip their toes into this see all this nonsense and garbage be like oh this microbiome thing oh it's just all overblown you know scammy stuff but no I mean there's the reason why there's so much interest is because it has this important fundamental I'm role to play in our house we do so only think that dietary fiber which is primary probiotic which feeds our good gut flora I like lactobacillus but the bacteria are good gut bugs eat fiber and what they do is they eat fiber and they produce so that eat fibers in the prebiotic they are the so-called probiotics the live bugs themselves and they produce as bibrars so-called postbiotics like butyrate acetate perp unit which get absorbed through the colon wall into our circulation go through our system plaster the blood brain bearer have effects throughout our body and so you can have people you know eat high fiber food like ride roads or barley roads or something and the next day have decrease asthma I have improved a lung function and the reason is is because then your whole body is circulating with these anti-inflammatory compounds which cut down in fact you can do bronchoscopies and pull out inflammatory cells and show the cells are less inflammatory just after you ate a different meal the night before is because by that time your good gut bugs have been able to eat these meals and then flood your system with it based on paleopoo basically fossilized feces in the paleolithic period we were getting an estimated triple digit grams of fiber a day over 100 grams of fiber a day right now the average in the western world is about 16 grams right which isn't even the recommended minimum 97% of Americans don't recommend a minimum deli's amount of fiber so we have this vastly fiber division diets and it's like we used to think fiber was just kind of some bulk bulking agent which just helped with you know kind of regularity but now we realize that's what our good gut bugs are eating now note some fiber supplements so fiber is a catch all term for literally thousands of different type of these indigestible carbohydrates from plant foods by definition and they all feed different groups of bugs that's why you get these kind of 50 food challenge things where we're 50 different plant foods because we want to feed all these different populations with good gut bugs but certain types of fiber supplements like psyllium so this metabusal isn't even fermentable at all by our good gut bugs our good gut bug gut bugs can't even eat it so you don't get these you can get the regularity benefits but you don't get the side bonuses of why we're eating fiber containing foods in the first place there's other pre-biotics like resistance starch we can talk about but how do we get a good gut microbiome we know it's not by taking probiotic pills if we if because it's all about the the environment and we would have those good gut bugs in our gut if we had a good environment that was feeding them lots of fiber and the reason we're just starving our microbial cells by eating all these processed foods then then if we take probiotic food they're not going to they're not going to take root because they're going to be starved off as well what we need to do is just feed the good gut bugs we already have and and and and and that increases the fiber feeders now initially if you've been just slathering your guts with you know you know milk chasing cheeseburgers your whole life and also need a ton of fiber you do not have you may not be able to your your current microbiome might not be able to handle it and you can get increase in gas and bloating and so you really you may have to go slow depending on how bad you're diet is even like okay we're going to do a spoonful chickpeas today then slowly ramp up but eventually the gas forming bugs which is actually a good thing that's what fermentation is with beer with sauerkraut whatever the gas formation that's a good thing good gut bugs are happy but that's balanced out by gas consuming bacteria that are that start growing because all of a sudden there's all this gas around and so you get this perfect balance you get the best of both worlds but it may take some time to build up to a healthy diet but then you can get all those benefits which include better mental health, decreased inflammation and better immune function. Amazing I appreciate that that's just a great it's a great primary and again I think it's just about learning from you because there's so much information that there are so many products and just people get confused they just honestly get confused and overwhelmed so I think that this is confused and overwhelmed on purpose that's what the industry wants it they just want you to get like oh coffee's good for you coffee's bad for you I'll forget it I'll just see whatever I want right but there is actually a core consensus as to the tenants of healthy eating and healthy living going back decades and so we shouldn't get you know taken off track by you know people that may not have their family's best interest at heart. So you know what are you working because I mean you have you've written many books you're still you're still teaching you're still speaking so if people want to first of all connect with you and sort of go down the rabbit hole and and pick up your books obviously you can get them on Amazon but what's your social what's your website but also or even your YouTube but also what are you working on next what are you researching next that people should be excited about. I encourage people to go nutrition facts out of work where you can find all my info for free all my videos has my contact information there as well. I just finished a book tour for how to die my next book is how not to hurt on lifestyle purchase the paid management and but I just finished a book on those Zempoch these do you want Agonist drugs which will be out later this month and it will set it up so when by the time you're hearing this it'll be probably like a week away from that book. Fantastic yeah so I'm super excited that so that's the latest thing I just finished. Next I'm going to do a book on ultra-process then I'm going to do the the pain book and all the proceeds from the sales of all my books are all donated directly to charity I just want you and your loved ones to love the longest healthiest life. I love it all right Michael I appreciate you so much. The last question I ask everyone and we can do this from a health perspective or just a personal perspective you've had a great career if you could go back and tell your 20-year-old self one thing what would that thing be? I'm really happy with how my life unfolded so I might give some relationship advice like a list of names of people I mean but no in terms of career paths I mean by that point I had made the right choices to really set me down kind of my current path and so you know basically just you know stick with it really I'm I'm I'm yeah I really really feel happy the way how things have gone yeah oh and maybe maybe well maybe starting right books earlier I was really resistant to writing books and like look all my all my stuff is available free online like why people even buy books anymore like what's that until finally I mean just had my I had to twist my arm to find the right book and then that was there was just you know like I'm not that I sold over my copy so like it's just been hugely important and so yeah how my concrete advice is getting the book business early because I could just have just a greater impact I love that you know getting on the New York's best so let's just like has like a credibility or whatever it is but that just like all my work was just taken more seriously and I should have just instead of just remaining online for over a decade exclusively start turning that start cutting down trees