Vishal Virani - Rocket.new Founder | The Future Of AI Software Development Belongs to Non-Coders

When you are trying to do something differently, always understand things challenge you. You need to just have a courage to do that at 10. If you get success, you can impact lots of life. When you are building a startup, there should be something which can speak on behalf of you. Before the rocket we were building, started in T-Wise, a Figma to code startup, where you just need to submit your designs and you will convert into code. It was a very hard time to convince someone. Machine can gender the code that can be accepted by human beings. What if your mindset was built to code the future? Vishal Varani is the entrepreneur turning billion dollar ideas into accessible platforms. As co-founder and CEO of D-Wise, he led a developer first app building platform that raised seed funding and rethought how software gets built. From a small city in India to a global tech stage, he's proved that engineering, ambition and clarity can reshape industries. Every six months you are able to see a bigger impact than the entire size industry. If you are not able to end up those things in your product, then you will be vanished. With the capability of AI, anyone can do anything. It's all about what you believe what your user wants. If you will not end up AI, AI will definitely replace you. AI will reform and restructure everything. The going forward may be the role will be AI product designer. If you will build your capabilities in that particular way, AI will not able to replace you. Vishal, tell me about Surat. Surat, let me give you one effect about the Surat. It's the largest diamond manufacturing city in the world. So, out of ten diamonds, nine diamonds get manufactured in my city. Then the people don't know about that story, but whatever diamonds you wear in particular in the US, like out of those ten, nine gets manufactured in Surat. So, Surat is all about the craft. We are largest diamond in the textile manufacturing hub in the world. And it's all about the craft, polishing and handling of the very precious goods. It's like what is known. We are for growing up what pushed you towards technology innovation. What was it? To be honest, it's a great of doing something in the tech world is the main thing. So, even like, let me tell you a story before the Surat. What is my upbringing? So, I'm coming from a farming background. Like my parents and my grandparents were doing the farming in a village. And I was the first engineer of my family, like no one in my family did the graduation before mine. So, when I get into engineering, I realize like this is a very different world. And here is the chance to make something different and make the life of a family really good if I put the hard efforts in. That was a kind of a curiosity because of that I start reading everything. And like, internet does not have any zip code. It's like, free, you can learn anything from that. And that's where I start building the curiosity. And another thing is like, I love travelling. So, I go to places like I travel to Bangalore to learn something. I travel to Delhi in India, like which are like, would take a capital tech capital hub kind of an. And then whenever I got a chance, like I travel to US and New York, I spend a good amount of time in Canada as well. Where I learn the tech and all. And every day it like my curiosity was increasing. Like what I can do in product before that I was running a service and consulting company. Where I work with the clients of like 24 countries. And we learn a lot of a lot of things from them. And it's like always as I said, like I have that greed and the curiosity to know something and to build something from Surat. And that's parts that create the spark. Like, okay, how I can do something. And that's how in 2021 I decided to build a tech air product company. But I took the inspirations from the right folks who are sitting in the SF, who are sitting in the Bangalore and the tech hub. So ultimately, that's where I say this. Like knowledge is bound really. You can learn it from anywhere. If you have a will, if you have a curiosity. So that curiosity is something which always push me to learn new things. Definitely a city does not have that support and that community. But the good part about my city is like, okay, we have few folks who can always help you. And that's where like, okay, whenever I have a doubt, like, okay, I learn new things from a guy sitting in the SF. But how to implement it, I don't know about that. So I can reach out to any senior person in my city because we have a very small city. We are very connected to everyone and they help me. Like, okay, you can think like that. You can do in this way. They have a researcher. So that's how this city helped me to see the dream and build the dream. I know that when you were raising money, you ran into friction with investors. And you spoke about this a few times. You experienced something called the pause, which is I'm assuming you're speaking to investors that don't quite understand. Because the people that have money that are the investors in like in Sarat, they're not the people that usually put money into a lot of tech startups. So I'm still am curious. What made you want to still build in Sarat, knowing that some of the investors weren't as educated in AI and tech. And you were running into this friction when you were raising. I know that the internet doesn't have a zip code. And you could build anywhere. But there was a reason in your mind why you still chose to build in this city. Like, help me understand it from like a strategic perspective. Even when there's a little bit more difficulty finding the right people, talent, investors, mentors, whatever. So like, there are like two things. The first thing is like kind of a DNA of building something. The way I said, like, I was the first engineer of my family. And that's the same DNA. Like, I want to build something first time from my city. And it may spread like lots of other founders. Like, you can do it from anywhere. Don't don't think about your location. So it was quite a philosophical angle. Another part is like every city has a good resources. Because of some opportunity or because of some restrictions, they were not able to move out of the city. So another part was like because I started my first venture in Surat, which was like IT consulting and service company. And we like having a hundreds of service and consulting companies in Surat. So like, you can start service and consulting only from anywhere. And that's that's why I started with Surat. And then I realized like, we have some advantages. Like, I cannot be Google of SF because Google is already there. But if I build something differently and if I build something exciting, I can be a mini Google of Surat. And that's where I can attract a good talent. And at my peak time, I may require like 100 developers or 200 developers. If I'm building a product company, that's what is like teams as you require. Like, okay, out of 20,000 engineers, do I have like those 200 sharp minds who can join me? Where I can help them to think differently, where they can join my vision and they can do things in an out-of-box way. And my answer was yes. So instead of like doing a competition in a bigger city, bigger tech cities like I decided like, okay, can I build something differently in my city where I get the talent and to be honest, like I got it. So that was a strategic angle that I took. And definitely the third part was like, okay, definitely VC generally took that micro moment of pause when they heard Surat. Like, most of the VC's in SF do not even know about where Surat is. But at that time, like, okay, do I have a product which can speak on behalf of me? And again, the answer was yes. Definitely, it was quite a bit of a struggle. But I know like, when you are trying to do something differently, the way I attempted my engineering from the farming background, it was the first time and always like first time things challenge you. But when you, if you are able to correct that thing, then it will give you a different kind of a dopamine. Like, okay, you are the first one who is doing it from your city. That's even a bigger moment to cherish all cherish about. And that's what I picked. Like, okay, it may have a little bit of a trouble. But if I succeed, I can able to create an impact on like lot many people who are building it from different different cities. And one of the examples is like in my recent trip of SF, we hosted a dinner and there were one person who come to me and he said, like, I'm from Mexico. I was working with the Mexican government, Mexico government. And then I moved to SF to build my startup. But when I read your story, I thought it was a mistake. I should at least give a one attempt. Like I can also build it from Mexico. And it may empowered like lots of people around me in a Mexico. But I give up without even, without putting a single attempt. And that's what I always want to create. Like, okay, you need to just have a courage to do that attempt. If you get success, like you can impact a lot of life and that's what happened with me. So it was a kind of a struggle with me because of my location. But that, but I want to do it somehow. And I try to navigate through all the challenges which I was facing from my city. But then like what we celebrate is the results, not the journey. I don't think when people, most people are starting a company. They understand that as an entrepreneur, as somebody who's building something, you will have a lot of people that look up to you. If you're successful, you'll have a lot of people that will look at what you've built and you will inspire a lot of people. And you will give hope to a lot of people who are ambitious, young and just starting out. I don't think a lot of people even think about that when they're first starting because they're so stressed about just making this thing work. But you actually had the foresight to say, hey, I want to give like inspiration to people who are anywhere in the world and help them understand that they don't actually have to be in Silicon Valley or in pick a big city, a Bangalore, wherever. They don't have to be in a major urban city that is known for tech to build something that is bleeding edge, that is disruptive, that is life-changing, not just for themselves as an entrepreneur, but for the customers and ultimately like what you're doing is like really bleeding edge and disruptive and life-changing for the world. So I think that more entrepreneurs, I mean, I don't need everybody to make it harder for themselves. But they should take a second and think, hey, how am I building this? Am I building it in a way that's ethical, that's responsible, that sort of, I don't know, I'm doing it in the best way possible because there's going to be a lot of people that are looking at me and are going to look at me as like the hero in their entrepreneur story and I think that's kind of what you're doing when you're saying that doesn't matter where you are, you can build from anywhere. So I just wanted to point that out, it's a really nice thing. Yeah, just want to add one thing, like don't create a wall of excuse around you. If you are not from the good, I will call it or if you do not speak good English or if you are building it from a tier two city, those are the excuses that you are giving it to yourself to become a good entrepreneur or building a successful startup. It's just all about your real and a courage to build something and then once you have that goal, like how much hours of efforts that you can put to learn something, to unlearn and relearn something and like how serious you are about the goal. So that's where you start making the strategies using the first principles. And once you understand the first principles, you will realize like, okay, location and everything does not matter what matters is like, okay, how you understand your users, how you understand their problems and how you build something and then you will find your ways. Now this idea of the pause, like when you're pitching this to an investor and they're saying there's no way you can build this in Sarat. I think that I'm going to make an assumption here and you could tell me from right or wrong, but I feel like if you're pitching AI to investors at all, there's already going to be a pause because it's something that's never been done before, but you're also pitching it to the employees that you're constantly pitching and you're constantly getting people on board. So when you're building something that truly has never been done before, I think a lot of people are going to experience this pause like this doubt in the stakeholders and the people that they want to get involved in the mission. Walk me through what you experience as somebody who's building something in Sarat, but also building something that again has never been done before. How do you deal with people doubting you? How do you deal with the pause from investors, from your employees? How do you overcome it? How do you keep going after I don't even know how many meetings you went into where they said like, no, thanks. I'm not interested. Like what keeps you going past the point where a lot of people would throw in the talent give up? So there are like two things. The first is it's not just about the city. Sometimes it's about your educational background like from which college you did your engineering or PhD or whatever it is. And like what your ex company like okay, I'm ex-Mata, ex-Google, ex Netflix and then the city. So to be honest, like I'm a founder which is like having a false in everything like I'm not from any good ex companies like ex-Google and all. I always introduce myself as ex of my ex because right after the graduation I started my first company and then second and third venture. So I always introduce like I'm ex of my ex. I did graduation from a very ordinary college which no one knows and then from the surreal. So what matters is like okay, there is when you are building a startup, there should be something which can speak on behalf of you. Sometimes you're a domain like okay, I work in a matter for this particular AI project and that speaks about you and your way will be very easy where people can join you or people can fund you. The same way like maybe sometimes you're a city that you are living and from where you're building that can speak on behalf of you. If you have nothing, there is one thing that always can speak about you which is your work which is your product. So I knew it very well like okay, I don't have any of these three things. So let me build the product right. Let me let me try to get the kind of an users that can prove my capabilities. And when someone will use my product either as a VC or as a user, they will start believing in like these guys are capable enough to build something. So definitely we got multiple rejections like whoever didn't try a product, they may reject us, they raise their eyebrow when they heard about the surat and then they have the questions how you can build it from surat. But when the current partners they tried my product first and that's where they get impressed like okay, this is a world class product. And then it was an inbound interest from them like okay, we want to talk to you and when they when they understand the vision, when they understand the underlying engineering behind the product and everything, they got that conviction and we got the terms it. So a simple thing is like okay, you need something which you can use it as a strength. Either it can be your city, it can be your background. And if you don't have anything, just use your product as an advantage. Show the product, try to build the conviction, you may get a couple of rejection is fine. But once someone will understand your product and your vision, they will join you. So don't worry about that, just build right product for the right user set. Where did the idea for a rocket come from? What was the problem that you were trying to solve? So I would say like before the rocket we were building a started in device which was like a Figma to code startup where you just need to submit your designs and we'll convert into code. And it was a pre LLM age when it was a very hard time to convince someone like machine can generate the code that can be accepted by a human being. So we started in 2021 with the vision of like we want to automate the entire software development lifecycle. So it was at that time, it was a very hard engineering problem. People were not ready to accept the code that is generated by the machines. So we started building and then we realized like okay LLM make it the entire process super powerful and we understand the domain very well like what kind of a code can be accepted by users, how they think, what they think and all. So it was like about three and a half years of like entire engineering and the knowledge of this particular space and we see like when we see like okay now people are habituated, now people are changing their entire kind of a behavior with the AI like they want to create the applications at their own, they don't want to reach out to any software developers like product managers wants to build something that at their own, soloprene wants to build something at their own, we see like okay with the AI people now start changing the behavior. We realized okay this is the right time and that's where we pivot from device to rocket. We shut down that entire startup because it was like a pre LLM era and like our entire positioning was attached to a Figma to code because we started with that we were kind of a category creator in that particular space. So we decided like okay this is something which we should live now and we want to go for a bigger vision where we can impact the world with our web solution approach where we can provide a solution of every problem for our users doesn't matter what they're doing so the longer vision is like okay if you have the problem just come on our platform and we'll give you a very deep solution about it and the first thing we started with coding because we already had that background we understand that particular space very well and that's how we pivot from device to rocket. So rocket was not just an idea which we get it overnight it was like three and a half years of learning understanding of the user, the understanding of the technology and everything which pushes to get out of the comfort zone of PY which was growing steadily we had like a couple of million dollars in our bank at that point of time and we decided with the way LLM is getting powerful this will be the only small feature in future so like do I need to just sit on that particular product that we are building it from last three and a half years or can we pivot and can we go for a bigger thing and that's where my co-founder and I agreed on something which can impact the world better than what we were building at device and that's how we started rocket. You did a very difficult thing which is pivot away from something that is arguably successful I think that many entrepreneurs have a hard time pivoting even when it's not successful to be quite honest but pivoting when it is a degree of successful how do you know just as a general sort of teaching you know a teaching moment for entrepreneurs how do you know when you should pivot away like what was the thing that made you actually make the decision probably like a hard decision and say hey it's working but there's like a much bigger opportunity over here let's go after that. As an entrepreneur see you are a chief visionary you need to be chief visionary officer who always can think beyond five years or ten years so when GPT-3 launched like the first town hall that I did with my team was like okay this is the iPhone moment and this is not understand like this is just iPhone version 3 whatever you experience with the GPT-3 is just iPhone version 3 we don't need to think about iPhone version 3 we need to think of power of an iPhone version 15 how powerful it will be in future and we need to make all the decisions which can be aligned to like iPhone version 15's power so just imagine how powerful GPT-15 will be and when when we try to just even imagine what kind of an powerful what kind of power AI will have after 10 years or 15 years every one of us was shocked like okay world will be very different and that's why we always say like there is a world before GPT-3 and there is a world after GPT-3 and are we ready to adopt this new world reality and the answer was no like okay right now the current product is is not ready for that so do we need to choose the comfort or do we need to choose the conviction because we have a conviction on the new tech like okay this is going to change the world so we choose the conviction over a comfort and and and that's how like that was a moment where we start this uh doing our research like okay what can we build a part of like this startup and and that's where we make a decision like okay whenever we are ready with our research we will pivot and pivot and it will take like uh it took almost like two years to figure out like okay what is the right tech where we can where we can create a very bigger impact and when we were ready with the POC we decided like to pivot so it's always about like for all founders conviction and and and the you need to understand like a change in a market like and what at what pace initially when says says application statement it was like after 10 years you you were able to see the impact now every six months you were able you are able to see a bigger impact then then the entire science industry and if you are if you are not able to see that change and if you are not able to end up those change in your product then you will be vanished so ultimately that was a simple thought and every time we need to keep ourselves awake like okay what if GPD or cloud will do something or what foundational model is doing right now if they do something similar for a rocket what will be our strategy so being a founder you always need to see like okay what will be the after three months or six months or 12 months or a two year after two years what will happen and are you ready for that or are you doing anything which will help you to survive in that particular market and again I'm a I'm a very big believer of a first principle so when you think from that angle ultimately you will make all the decisions which makes you future ready so doesn't matter like what I see you are selecting what product roadmap you are picking for your product and like do you want to continue with the current concept of your product or not every answer will come when you look at the future and that's what we talk about the vision like okay what is your vision why we talk about that what is like that vision is like how how far you can see is doesn't matter is a possible vision or a possible vision or a completely impossible vision but are you able to see that far or not as a founder there's a most critical skill that every founder needs to have and when you're able to see that future you will able to easily pivot anyone can do a pivot or anyone can change their path if they are able to visualize what is going to happen in future can you explain to me what it means to think in first principles as a founder I love this idea and I think that's probably why you are going to be successful but I think that especially for first-time founders they are a little bit more short-sighted and they do think okay they're chasing revenue more often than not and I think that's why you know I just mentioned if you have a successful business it's very hard to pivot completely it's probably not because they're thinking from first principles but explain that concept when did you first learn about this concept and and and how do you how do you like apply it to rocket and and how you think so I first time I heard about this principle from the story of Alan must like Alan must is like of very big billiard of a first principle and that's how he built all the starters where everyone is saying like okay you cannot run a two big companies in parallel where he's running like x and a SpaceX in parallel so he was like the one he's the one who is challenging every norms of the world like okay you cannot build a rocket which can come back on earth again he built it and when when I was trying to understand his philosophy and thinking I got to know about the first principle and that's where like a first time I read the concept I try to understand each and every element how I can adapt it in my life and and that was the moment from where I start learning about it I start practicing it every time I ask questions like okay why I'm doing this I get into granular detail of my decision like okay if you will not do this is it the end or not so ultimately in the first principle it's very simple it talks about like core fundamentals make a decision based on the core fundamentals like okay if I just give an example how I understand the GPT-3 different than anyone else is like everyone was saying this is the prompt engineering this is the prompt technology that unique to add up and that's how LLM functions but for me is like okay why LLM is acting like that so I will like do a lot of prompting with with the LLM I will try to understand that fundamental behavior I will I will read like okay how LLM is is functioning I will get into every micro details of granular details of those those techniques and all and I will reinvent my own techniques like I don't want to follow any prompt techniques given by the world because like I understand the granularity so I will build my own theme so the first principle well will help you to build your own methods not like okay if you will follow someone's method if they stuck you will stuck but when you understand from the first principle you can invent your own methods so that's why I always say like focus on the principles if you just focus on the methods you will stuck somewhere but when you're focusing on the principles if something is not working you know how you can control it and that is applicable in all the decisions of your life and that's why that's what I always believe like okay do not just read blog books and all understand underlying psychology or underlying psychology and the granular detail behind those decisions from that book and then try to think like in your perspective how you can build your own methods so that is like first principle thinking where you will not just accept anything in that pure form you will just divide it into like smaller smaller chunks and you will get into granularity and then you will create your own methodology out of it quick question what's your go to when you got 10 minutes before a meeting or a workout for me it just used to be whatever I could grab which usually meant skipping meals entirely or just grabbing something that left me crashing an hour later because it was just full of garbage that's why I'm partnering with fuel this black edition ready to drink is a complete meal so it has 35 grams of protein six grams of fiber 35 essential vitamins and minerals it is no sugar added gluten-free under five bucks I always keep a few of these in my fridge and honestly it's solved the whole back-to-back meetings go go go non-stop no time to eat problem super well and this one's new for me it's fuels daily greens I had the blueberry this morning honestly first impression it was way better than I expected it's developed by registered nutritionist and dieticians there are 42 vitamins minerals and superfoods only 25 calories four grams of fiber and just one gram of sugar I throw one back first thing before my morning calls every single morning look if you're running a business time is the most valuable asset he will make healthy eating simple and they also just launch into target source nationwide so you can get it everywhere try both products today with 15 percent off your purchase for new customers with my exclusive code Scott at huill.com slash Scott tried both products today with 15 percent off your purchase for new customers with my exclusive code Scott SEO TT at huill.com slash Scott use my code fill out the post checkout survey to help support the show that is huill.com slash Scott they really make healthy living case amazing even if you're on the go healthy eating healthy lifestyle doesn't have to taste bad it doesn't have to suck net suite is a 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changer for business visibility and control if you want to see how AI can transform your financial operations download the cfo's guide to AI and machine learning for free that's net suite dot com slash scott clary that's net suite dot com slash scott clary net suite dot com slash scott clary i think we're actually in an age of of information consumption but not actually applying it people are reading you know a book a week but they're just skimming over it and they're not actually understanding the core principles or the actual information how it impacts their life for their business like you it i think it's much smarter to go deep on a few topics and understand how they actually impact and test if they actually impact your life for your business and the way that they say they will versus just accumulating facts and accumulating ideas here i want to make one example if i have the time so let's you have lots of time go for it i love this i love this idea because it's something that's so relevant to me right now because especially for the podcast i mean i love when people listen to the podcast obviously it's what i do for a living but i think my biggest call to action is like yeah you listen to a great interview but are you actually taking these ideas and are you testing them out in your life or are you just collecting all of these ideas and assuming them to be true and then you're parroting them in your board meeting or with your employees or with your investors and you sound smart but you actually have no idea what these ideas really mean yeah and so whenever you are making decisions so let's say the way you say like people read lots of books and then they don't know about to do next so let's say i have a problem and someone is coming up with the concept of an okr you will read it you will find like okr can change my life and you will start implementing okr and then you will stuck somewhere why it happened simple when you when you decode that when you get into root cause analysis the first thing is like okay when are you bringing the okr book you need to understand what circumstances someone introduce the okr in google and then you need to understand those were like a Larry page Sarge who understand the okr what kind of an talent he he he is having at that particular time in the past like all all greatest of the greatest brain of the silicon valley was working with those two brilliant people who were inventing the Google and those guys were the one who opted the okr they adopted the okr they they implemented in real life and now you you see your situation how many people you are having around you with a very high ownership and that kind of mindset that kind of an intellectualness so you need to understand the situation very well and in what particular situation okr was introduced by someone and adopted by someone if you have a very similar situation you can definitely adopt it as it is but if you have a very different situation and if you try to adopt okr by just reading a okr book you are going to stop and and that's where all the founders needs to put their own situation they need to think deeply definitely you can you can bring that structure but you need to modify it or you need to explain it to your team in a very different way if you just distribute okr books to everyone and on day two if you are thinking like ok everyone will be adopted everyone will adopt the okr and your company is going to be very different it's not going to happen and I'm telling it from my own experience I did it before four five years and every year when so at that time I even I didn't knew about the first principles so I was making such kind of decisions without like thinking about anything else but now I'm thinking like five times and even like I'm not 100 percent perfect in my decisions but at least I learned it from that and I always try to implement first things so I'm not expert of it but I'm learning every day and trying and practicing it so maybe after like a couple of years I can be like completely first principle driven founder right now I'm not 100 percent first principle driven founder but still I think like this so we're in this like awkward AI phase right now but explain to me what rocket is actually doing and why it's sort of solving for the function that it's actually like it's how it's actually building apps but also how it's different than all these other tools that are kind of like falling flat so like there are there are a couple of things so let me start with rocket rocket is a wide solutioning platform where we help users to solve their problem right now by generating the code and the vision is to as I say it like solve the problem with a very different spectrum so our upcoming releases are like completely aligned to the bigger vision of solving the problem in every facet so ultimately we'll talk about that but right now that's what we are doing and I'm talking about that particular part so you just need to come and and give your app idea like okay I want to build this particular digital business just like four five liners nothing else and rocket will do the analysis of that particular space geography in for which particular demographics you want to build the application everything in like 2020 2025 minutes and it will come up with a complete concept like okay if you want to solve this particular problem this is this this can be like really good solution and it will give you like complete eight nine ten screens of like solutions like okay how you can design your dashboard to solve particular problem or how you can create the form what what fields should be there what kind of an validation you can keep so from validations to interconnections to every component will will generate in like 25 minutes and that's how by just putting a one prompt will help you to solve we will help you to visualize the entire solution of your problem this is just like first part then we have a commands so ultimately like okay now if you if you don't like our design thing you can just put one slash command like okay slash change design theme and we will help you with your new design theme you can just upload your reference image so sometimes now I'm covering a one more answer that one more question that you that you were asking like many people fill and this they feel like okay this is not the system with solving my time problem actually it's increasing my time and why it happens is like okay being a human you have something in your mind you think like okay I didn't like this design this is a very broad statement you have a some reference in back of your mind and you are trying to map that particular thing with with the outputs generated by AI system and and that's what you are not liking all about and now if you want to explain that entire scenario to AI it will take like a 500 lines of prompt or like 50 lines of prompt depends on like how dissatisfied you are with the output and people are not willing to put that explanation inside the AI system and that's well they see AI system is failed and many times we see a we observe like what people put in in in the chat box even with the interaction with the chat jpg or with the rocket system I don't like it can you can you give me something else now I don't like it and give me something else both are a very broad statement and that's where AI do not understand you and we know like okay you are not the great prompt engineer because you didn't learn about it and like AI systems should be a capable enough to understand your context and everything and that's where we have another feature where you can say just like slash command design a change design theme upload any inspiration that you're having from a drip ball or from any other system that's it and we will automatically identify what are you trying to say and we will change the entire design theme in the same way layout fix or let's say now if you want to implement login people are saying like okay you need to understand the prompt engineering to implement authentication what we are saying just use one slash command slash authentication press enter and we will implement that entity if you want to implement like a chat system using the open AI or a cloud anything just slash open AI implement open AI with chat system that's it in eight minutes of time we'll implement entire chatbot system with integration of an open AI so what we are building is a smarter system than putting a core instead of in putting a cognitive load on our user and that is like a fundamental observation between the other guys who are building this building a system in this particular space versus why we are very different our entire focus is on providing a solution in a most easiest and the comfortable way for our users instead of pushing them to learn about a new prompt engineering techniques and like define more and more prompts to get the system so right now what everyone is doing is like okay you need to put a prompt they will provide you one one screen of output then you need to put more and more prompt like okay I need this as well that as well and and that's how they need to take that entire cognitive load of building the system versus here we are saying just put a file liners of problem statement sit and relax after 25 minutes we will notify you your system is ready to review just come if you want to modify anything just do it and that's it that's that's what our current system is capable of now going forward what we are saying is like why they are calling our system a wide soliciting because building a application become a commodity is nowadays on any platform you can build the application but still the bigger problem is like what's to build now let's say many of us is having idea I want to build something in this particular space but I don't have people who can do enough research for me or they can put the enough effort to help me like what should exactly what exactly I should build to achieve something and that's where the entire vibe soliciting concept come in a picture and nearby future will help our user to think from a very different perspective there will solve the day zero problem by telling them this is the we'll do a research on behalf of them we'll write the PRDs we'll do everything for them and they just need to select the PRD from the PRD we'll generate the entire application so that's how our entire focus is a wide soliciting platform is solving a day zero day one and day two problem and when we talk about the day two problem is like okay whenever you make your system lie that's not the one time job you need to observe lots of data you need to think about the scale you need to think about how you can create a better user experience for your end users and that's where we'll give you like more and more context over system you can plug in your third party data analytic systems and all and we will suggest like okay here you can do this improvement that's how you can implement your you can make your security better and users just need to select those suggestions and we will implement it automatically so we are building a very very advanced gigantic system to solve like a problem of a day zero to day two so that's where they we will empower them so ultimately the goal is to create a impact GDP by providing them as a kind of platform where they can go digital where they can grow where they can take their product to a next level doesn't matter either they're building a D2C system sitting somewhere in let's say Brazil or Africa but they have a very good product and if they want to go lie if they want to digitize the entire application they should do it without any technical knowledge like just put a prompt we will handle rest of the thing for you and this is a feature that we are able to say with the rocket and that's what we are solving right now it's actually you're mentioning they should be able to do it without any technical knowledge but it's actually more than just technical knowledge it's it's like full product knowledge it's it's understanding everything that like you mentioned before like understanding data and understanding like UI UX and understanding security features so it's it's not just saying like I want this app to work based on what my prompt is it's like okay I want this app to work great here's a first version but then we're giving you all these recommendations that probably a non technical person wouldn't even know to think about and we're going to implement those because when you look at a lot of tools so what I was just you know discussing about how all these companies trying to implement AI and all the people that are using AI and the companies realize it is taking them longer than just doing it themselves so they're they're solving for I guess the best way to put it is like what is it they're solving for day one is at it and then day two at breaks or day two it's is that is that a fair assumption with a lot of the AI tools that are out being used right now like true so everyone is just trying to generate the code and and give it to the user like okay you can just host it on our platform and you can build our application but no one is talking about like once I go live how will help me to increase my revenue how you will increase how you will help me to like handle my scale and everything and as as you mentioned like okay it needs to be recommended by system like we know the technology non technical guy don't know anything about the product management he don't know anything about the data analytics he don't know anything anything about like how to grow his digital business because he was doing a non-digital business still now like he was running a fitness center but because of your platform he jump into digitalization of his business so systems should recommend him and that is all like day two problem you have a product you have application in front of you but now how to get a business out of it is something that should recommend by the AI and that's we call a day two problem and that's where our internet focus is all about why do you think founders optimize for like this this demo or this this first version versus day two like it makes sense to me like if you want to build again if you want to be a product first organization if you want to build a company that centers around a really good product that solves a really important problem solving for day two seems to be the most logical thing but I mean we see a lot of founders not not building for a day two problem they just sort of build for that flashy demo or that first experience what do you think that is like why like I mean I've used vibe coding tools myself and I've experienced literally everything that you're discussing and I'm like this kind of seems like a little bit lazy like it seems like they didn't like go all the way and I don't quite understand why but I don't know what's your what's your thought is it just because things are moving so quickly maybe see I respect all the founders in fact like because like loveable and bold started this vibe coding space we got the idea we can also also get into this so here here are the things like every every startup having their own individuality like okay maybe loveable is focusing on creating the lending page a good branding website where people can come and create a digital portfolio so as a founder is always about like who is your ICP for whom you are building what is your particular vision is all about and even the day one problem is having a it's own depth so it's depends on the vision of the founder what they're building and where they are getting the good growth for us like when we were deciding our ICP like we put some of the things into non ICP bracket like we don't want to get into that because someone is already solving it so getting into that zone can then create unnecessary competition for you and there is no chance of in growth so everyone whoever is building in any particular space as an entrepreneur they are doing some good work and they know their ICP very well they know that GTN strategy very well and that's why they're building in that particular strategy and when you know like okay you are deep into it and when you are getting a really growth by solving that particular thing you will not able you may not want to get into something else from the very beginning definitely once you see like okay maybe we are launching in that particular space we are getting a good traction they won't also jump the way we started vibe coding after after seeing the growth of loveable and bold so it's all about like market research understanding of your ICP what they want it's it's all about the user what they are looking from you so from our GTN strategy what we got is a serious audience and they were like asking us a very hard questions how you will solve my problem and that's where we decided like okay we want to build the entire spectrum from a day zero to day two instead of just focusing on the day one problem so everyone can do with the capability of anyone can do anything it's all about like what do you believe what is your philosophy and what your user wants I have I will play devil's advocate and you can be you can be an impartial you can be an impartial founder and you don't have to have an opinion on this but but in my opinion I think that some companies have grown very quickly because of the hype around AI and if there was not the hype around AI they would have not raised the amount of money that they would have erased and I think that we're going to see at some point companies with real products that solve real problems those will be the companies that last and I think there's going to be some companies that have grown incredibly quickly they will have to pivot or do something because their solutions are great but I don't think they justify the amount of money they've raised or the valuations so that's my personal thing it's it's not about the valuation but see on what parameter you are building a business I always believe in sustainable business and when I talk about a sustainable business like okay what kind of an gross margins you are having what kind of in tech to LTV ratio you are having like is it like your growth is justifiable or not because like sometimes rapid growth between that kind of a situation like every user cost you a penny which is getting into negative direction so if you are having a negative gross margin and if you are growing very quickly you need to raise more and more money just to survive because you know you are losing your money on every penny you are earning so I don't call it a sustainable business definitely if you know your metrics very well if you know your mathematics like okay this particular time if LLM cost goes down and I will I will be a profitable company where I will have a millions of users go like you can do that but that's the bigger assumptions like okay LLM cost goes down what if it will not so it's it's not a problem of money it's a problem of in like mathematics like what are you doing what are you believing and what are your assumptions that should be a line that what I believe like okay only crazy funding will not help you to make any decisions like okay that will help you to survive if you are growing without unsustainable metrics so that's what I believe this is my opinion one thing that's interesting about rocket because most other competitors in your space they deliver code in you know sub three minutes you mentioned before that rocket takes you about 25 minutes so what was the rationale behind that obviously I'm assuming because it takes a little bit longer it's it's creating more code it's taking its time it's it's creating like a very high quality product but when all the competitors are pushing things out in a very you know in two three minutes and then you're pushing things out in 25 minutes was that a concern obviously I know that like Fortune 100 companies are piloting rocket right now you have like over 10,000 paying subscribers so it's working but obviously that was a calculated risk that you took it was a quite calculated risk the way you said initially we had a a very big internal debate like okay we'll be able to create the impact like people will wait for 25 minutes or not and initial thought was like let's do it and let's see it in the data will people wait for 25 minutes or not and we see like okay 90% of our users are ready to wait because we have a we can see like okay they wait for 25 minutes and then they check the preview and everything and that that funnel was like after sign up after putting the first from like 90 90 to 92% of people were waiting just to see a preview what we are generating and and then so we got the confidence like okay we can go with this now why we are doing like why we are sticking to 25 minutes of philosophy versus three minutes three minutes of generation philosophy because what we believe is like a kind of an apple to apple comparison like right now we are generating 8 to 9 10 screens of output from a single prompt without putting any kind of incognitive load on our users whereas I said like okay most of the people are just generating one screen then you need to put lots of prompts to get your final output and all and as a user you need to think what you want in a system but in our case like what we observe is like user won't AI to surprise them like okay I am putting my problem as the AI you help me to solve and in a 25 minutes of time actually we are doing all that research and we are giving like end-to-end system as I said with the validations and all where users here a bigger level of an impact so if I put our 25 minutes of output with this three minute of output if you if you want to build a very similar level of a system it may take up to three days of time for you because you will constantly put new prompt iterate it you will do all sort of an work which we are doing in a 25 minutes of time and this is like quite a complex system but even if I consider the easy system in general in an average like we are reducing eight hours of work to 25 minutes of 25 minutes in rocket platform and when I say eight hours of work I am talking about like other a vibrating platform if you if you want to achieve the same quality and same level of comprehensiveness you may spend eight hours of time to doing all the prompting work versus we are able to generate in 25 minutes so it's in actually it's not 25 minutes it's our first results we are taking for the generating the first results we are taking 25 minutes of time I think that I have you found have you found with a lot of companies just building in the AI space they're optimizing for speed like do you see that that's sort of a common thread between many companies yes so and many times I've also got this feedback like okay the real vibe is to generate the results in three minutes because we are building a wide-coding platform I say real vibe is and my philosophy is like real vibe is like delivering the solutions without putting a cognitive load on your user and that's always a debate and like many times I heard this feedback but this is the feedback from a generic perspective like general feedback and all but when I look at my data the funnel and all the kind of in conversion that we are having we see like okay this is working really well for us and this is the kind of in USB that we are building against our computer so we stick to that particular philosophy like definitely we are trying to reduce our time when we were started it was like 25 minutes like recently in the recent update of last week now we are taking only 12 to 15 minutes of time so it's not like we just want to stick to a 25 minutes of time but to where you what we fundamentally will if is like our first result should be comprehensive enough it should provide the solution so we want to stick to that particular philosophy and wherever we can able to reduce the time with our engineering efforts without compromising with the output quality we'll focus on that so definitely it's not like okay we are not getting about our user but like okay if if if I need to make a conscious call between our output quality versus speed I will always focus on the output quality it's so funny how what rocket allows you to do and what any technically any vibe coding platform allows a non-technical person to do is to create something that they wouldn't have ever even been able to have done in like a year with their current level of technical knowledge for the majority of like non-technical like vibe coding users yet it's wild how everybody is so is like there everybody's attention span now is like an all-time one right so fundamental you know fundamental behaviors of users is getting changed right change now yes it is it is but it's not just because of it's not just because of LLMs or or or other AI tools I think that everybody's attention span across the board has just been reduced to almost nothing because of how we consume content I mean like we're in like a gig economy where we can have everything delivered to us instantaneously we're optimizing for 30 to 45 second videos on social media but I'm just I'm laughing at the fact that somebody is using rocket to code the code something somebody who couldn't can't code like somebody who can't code is using rocket to code something and there's a conversation about 25 minutes versus three minutes when a year ago like you would have had to have spent like a hundred thousand dollars I don't even know plus higher the developer plus like it's so wild yeah even like even like before like a couple of years years it someone tell you like okay this is a problem statement how we will solve it what will be your dashboard looks like or how this feature looks like you may take like seven days of time just to think about the solution of that particular problem statement now in 25 minutes of time like in fact like in a 15 minutes of time you are getting a solution you are getting a code you are getting everything and still it still looks like okay you are taking a 25 five minutes of time to generate this solution like look at this 15 days of effort versus 15 minutes it's like and that's a that's a good time and that's that's where I was talking about that iPhone was in three years this power of iPhone 15 this is this isn't the like power of AI and this isn't beginning we are just scratching a surface like after five years it is going to be like even powerful and and that's why I advise everyone just just if if you're still in that more of like okay should I should I add up the AI or not should I get into that or not doesn't matter you adapt it or not just try it and that's where you will realize like okay how you can change your thinking and how you can change your entire workflows and everything the one thing that you talk about like lots of people I forget to answer that question in fact that you talk about lots of people try to implement there and then they went back to their original workflows because they were not able to figure out the values one thing that I hope though which is quite different before like when we were implementing the says size applications are sourced to in our organization what we are trying to do is like okay which size application is best for my workflow and that's how you will adopting it nowadays the world is very different if you think you will you need to you don't want to change your workflow and some AI system will come and sit in your workflow it's a different it's it's a wrong thinking you should think of you should think about the restructuring of your flows a process is team and everything to add up the AI and and that's the right way to do it and again think like in that iPhone version three like before iPhone how you were operating the mobile phone or even before mobile phones how you were operating versus and then mobile can you you didn't say like okay mobile's need to sit in my workflows you change your entire habits you change your work style you change your everything to adopt that smartphone in your lifestyle so the same way if you want to adopt AI efficiently and effectively you should think about the restructuring of your process team and everything and then you can find out a you will figure out any tool which will help you to boost your productivity like 10 x 20 x that you you will never think about but when you try to fit AI inside your workflows you will say like this is not working because the tool is didn't meant to be like that so that that's all there's a one observation that I'm having and maybe like for all your viewers I I can give give this advice like okay think differently when you are trying to add up the AI in your life cycle indeed is a success story partner now if you're hiring indeed is all you need let me give you an example if I needed to hire a new editor for this show I'd go to indeed and be super specific not just can you edit audio I'd say I need someone who's edited a conversational podcast for at least three years gets our style and knows our software someone who's done this before and here's the thing with indeed sponsored jobs I'd get people who fit that description I'm not digging through resumes when people who've edited one youtube video I'm getting actual podcast editors who know what they're doing people who've worked on shows like ours and can prove it that's what makes a difference you get people who actually are what you're looking for according to indeed data sponsor jobs posted directly on indeed are 90% more likely to report a higher than non sponsored jobs and people are finding quality hires right now in the minute that I've been speaking to you companies like yours have made 27 hires on indeed 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works for marketers to give you your life and your time back hub spots marketing hub hub spots content hub combined with their new AI called breeze now what this actually does is basically everything that you shouldn't have to do yourself it remixes your content instantly so you're not starting from scratch every single time it handles lead scoring so you know exactly who to focus on which customers will probably convert and it pulls all your analytics and your data and KPIs into one place instead of having them scattered across 15 different tabs and tools plus the AI agents that hub spot builds for you can automate the repetitive stuff that's eating away your day bottom line you get better results faster without burning out see with hub spot everything's connected in one platform instead of duct tape together if you're tired of being spread too thin check out hubspot.com slash marketers to see how this actually works i'm curious uh when you think about when you think about how AI tools will continue to get better in the future i'm wondering why uh like you look at open AI and chat GPT and cloud why aren't why aren't they optimizing for reducing cognitive load because i think if you ask Sam Altman he'll say that he is but i don't i mean i use it every single day i don't think that it really is is done a good job of of reducing cognitive load on the user yeah we'll agree we'll it's like yes and no both definitely they're improving every day but being into foundational model they are having a lots of challenges so if you if you look at the GPT 3 versus GPT 5 definitely they they make it lots lots of advancement into that model but because they are solving a horizontal purpose they are solving everything that user is a one from their platform so now the expectations are that high we are not able to see those uh improvements and all because like in two years our life has been completely changed so when we look at like foundational models like cloud growth or open AI we think like okay now they are not improving that fast but our expectations were very high like when GPT 3 launched we were not expecting anything at all but now we are expecting like they they should give us like 100% accurate result without saying anything they should understand us so let me let me tell you a very small observation like okay after the memory feature like initially when you were doing something with the chat GPT you need to explain everything in the individual threads but now they are having the memory feature so ultimately whatever you're explaining so let's say I'm if I'm explaining about myself to a chat GPT in one thread in another thread if I'm talking about like okay consider my persona and write this thing for me so it it will remember your entire thing like who you are and what are you doing and everything that's a very small feature but a very very powerful because now every time I don't need to explain the entire context to a chat GPT so a very small feature but very powerful so you need to observe like where they are moving how they are moving but as I said like now expectations are quite different so we think like they are not moving enough fast so it's always a quite a problem I want to I want to talk about AI replacing people so you've said a few things you said that AI won't replace people it replaces mundane work which I agree with you've also said that if someone isn't adopting AI they will they will definitely get replaced so for the average person who's listening who's a developer they're you know they're listening this conversation they're like what do you mean AI it's not going to replace me you just told me that in 25 minutes not only can it do research it can do it can do product it can do UI UX it can do basically everything that I do in my job how will this not replace me as a developer what are you saying to that person so see there are like two things air will not replace you is it right and wrong again if you will not adopt AI AI will definitely replace you and what I fundamentally believe is like AI will reform and restructure everything from now so let's say when I say the restructuring and the reform initially we have a roles like in product designer product manager and then maybe a friend and developers the going forward maybe the role will be AI product designer where a designer is doing everything using the like conceptualizations to writing the PRD is to delivering the end code so that's how every role will be redefined the way AI is getting powerful and now you need to see like what role will be best with the AI and if if you will build your capabilities in that particular way I will not able to replace you but you just want to stick to your particular role and if you are not a greatest of the greatest expert of the world then air will replace you so all the modern and the mediocre work will be replaced by the AI so you need to be expert in something with AI and that's how you can make sure like you will not be replaced anytime in the world and there are like 1% of the people who are like super expert in whatever they are doing either they are doing the designing or they are writing the code and all those we're not going to get replaced by any system of the world because those were the like people who are believing believing in fundamentals they understand everything and those are the resources who don't need to add up anything so if you if you are 100% sure you are that kind of an expert who don't need to be changed with the AI who understand every fundamental piece of a job that you are doing you don't need to worry but if you if you know like you are if you're not that one person and if you are coming you are you are a part of 99% then you need to think like okay how my role is going to redefine in the age of AI and how I can be fit for that and if you are adopted like no one can replace you say I'm a founder I can build an app now in 25 minutes who do I need on my team do I need any developers do I need a CT like who do I need who don't whom I hiring now like what is your vision like what is your true vision for the future is it going to be everybody's a solo printer a good question and you put me in a controversial space now okay so right now if I talk about the current version of rocket definitely you need a developer because you need someone to validate the code that we are generating at this moment like okay isn't the secure code definitely we are saying like this is a secure code but at least you need couple of folks if you are building a really serious system then in 25 minutes not just enough so for an example there are multiple things and as a founder what role you want to own so initially founder were handling the product management and and the engineering and then other things but in the age of AI when you know like product anyone can build product very quickly you need to focus on the GTN so you can hire like few folks who can manage your product and who can who can delete very quick product using a vibe coding platform like rocket and as a founder you need to focus on the GTN so a solo printer is definitely a good thing but it's just and just to validate your idea so now here I talk about the fundamental chip okay with the vibe coding platform when when you are creating the first version initially to build the MVP to conceptualize your problem and the product you were taking like lots of time and you need to put lots of money and that were like most riskiest face of your life of your startup life where you don't know will will my idea work or not and you are trying to explain your concept verbally to your users to get a feedback now with the AI without hiring a developer as a solo printer you can go very quick in market like in just month of time you can get the validation you can do everything and then you can think like okay now I want to scale my product I want to launch more and more features inside this and I will focus on the GTN to build my first million dollars of ARR let's say for an example that's where you can hire a couple of developers you can give a rocket platform to them so they can expand your product very quickly as a single person it will be tough for you to manage your GTN your rest of the things validation of the product and also definitely will require developer but before before AI and this kind of a platform you may require like 5 to 10 people of team now you can do the same thing with like just like two or three folks so that's how things are getting different but you will not require any person at all in your team is the wrong statement I'm just wondering what like what a software like what a software team looks like in five years from now for somebody like and and and for somebody who is like again they're not the top 0.01 percent they're not CTO they're not somebody who is you know has built apps and exited they're not somebody that has those accolades they're somebody who is like learning CS their their early stage in their career developer and they want to have a future well describe I want you to describe what a software team looks like in five years from now but I want you to describe it so that that person who is concerned about AI taking their job because you know they are when you're just starting you are mediocre that's that's how you are you start out mediocre you don't start out the best of the best so what can that person do to be part of that software team or that development team in the future oh uh the one thing like now there is a scope of an AI developers data engineers because AI needs lots of things like fine tuning of model to uh uh having like advanced rig system the contextual system and also a definitely the developers job will be there but as I said like okay uh the front end and back end developers job will be redefined to AI developers where they will do a lot of AI work and optimizing the database and right now still we are having a lots of hallucinations and also ultimately the job will shift from a ordinary front end back end developers to AI developers the way this end I understood started like software industry initially we were doing like shishap and vb.net and and and and cc c++ stand up and programming now everyone is like having a proper front end and back end developer so whenever there is a industrial revolution come or whenever there is a big change happen in your uh in your industry always remember like you will not be replaced your role will be redefined and are you ready for that or not so ultimately even if you are a mediocre software developer either you can think like how you can become AI developers and you need to start learning from now so you can you can you can become expert of that another part is like okay if you don't want to change if you want to stick to a front end and back end developer and as I said like there will be need of them as well but then they need to think using a web coding platform or using any AI platform like cursor or a rocket or anything how they can be like 10x powerful and productive not just in delivering the code but okay now because I have a time I can own the product I can think from the product management lens I can deliver the code I can test it at my own and that's how I will I I can do a five people five persons job at alone like product management designer, coder, unit tester and the DevOps guy single-handedly and and that's how the role will be very different I don't know what we call it but the way you said now we have we are having a forward deploy engineer FDE that role was not there even like before two years now everyone is talking about the forward deploy engine FDE is everyone is talking about a GTM developer like roles are like completely new in the age of AI and that's is going to happen so you as a if you are a mediocre resource you just need to figure out like where you will fitting and you start need to learn those things just to make sure you will your future will be secure one thing you mentioned I much I think is another thing that we're all trying to solve for is hallucination and I I'm curious as somebody who's building something right now where does hallucination even come from and and then how do you how do you actually end up solving for it and and making it so that we hallucinate less so we can trust the results a little bit more because I know that I think that now they do tests and benchmarks again like on generative chat tools and it's getting better every time there's like a new version released but what is that what is causing that hallucination so the first thing is like a vague requirement and the vague prompt so what is that hallucination you were expecting something and you get a very different is definitely sometimes every software is error it's not a new thing to be honest like even human being also hallucinate like okay let's let's take a very wild guess often support system okay you have like support department you have a 10 people generally what is our air a success rate or like error rate in if if there is no AI at all human also operated like 60 to 70 percent of accuracy rate generally like okay sometimes they give a wrong response to a user or sometimes they give a respond bill your user get offended they also make a 30 percent 40 percent of mistakes but our full tolerance rate was such a high when it comes to human to human interaction we say okay it's a human being they can make mistake even if we consider the a kind of an hallucinous rate or hallucination rate or error rate with the AI system it may be sometimes like 10 percent or less than 20 percent but we are not able to we are not having that full tolerance rate inside us like okay if machine machine should be 100 percent perfect even after like a 30 40 years of like software development still software are having the errors otherwise we should not have the maintainer steam at all still the systems are broken which is not built on the AI or anything which is built by the human being still a login page maintenance having the error like you don't receive the OTP if you see everywhere there is a hallucination everywhere there are errors but with the AI the kind of an high pair is getting the definitely the controversial side will also get that high and that's where we are making this hallucination of a lot bigger than actually it is every day everyone is improving but now people are expecting 99.99 percent or 100 percent accuracy which is definitely not going to be there and the reason is the second point you explain something to a system in you expecting 100 percent but you are not translating what you are having in your brain let's say let's talk about like again I'm taking one example you are my client and I'm I'm I'm I'm just putting a row vague requirement in an LLM I want to write a proposal to score and just draft it off for me and then I will say like okay hallucinating is having lots of error is it's not generating the way I want first is I'm not saying who is caught what I have in mind what kind of in terms I want to write where he is sitting where I am sitting what are the jurisdiction that I want to cover LLM like you didn't give any context to LLM and you're expecting 100 percent accuracy result when when you when you create a bound so when you put a very broad word like okay create a best proposal for me as I said it's a two broad requirement there is nothing like and best you need to define what is best for you in your case that's where LLM can give you better results and you will see like now now you are getting a super quality results which is not generic which is not hallucinated and as I said still because of an error of an foundational model you still may have like 20 or 10 to 20 percent of variation but you should adapt it by the time it will it will get fixed but be very specific when are you putting any instruction in any AI system just to get the right results when you look at I would actually love to do another conversation with you about like just the future of AI in general because that could be like a very that could be a whole other probably two hour conversation but when we just look at you know how fast removing the success that rocket has had the success like a lot of a lot of AI tools and platforms have had where are we going to be in the next year from now like I mean you were in it you're building we're talking about hallucinations we're talking about we're talking about reductive cognitive load we're talking about the effects on the actual people that are using it and how they have to upscale to stay relevant like I know this is a very broad question but just what is your what is your prediction for what the world looks like a year from now I won't even say five years because that will be crazy to even try and guess but a year from now what do you think the world of AI looks like so I know there's will it happen in a year or now a year or like later but we will see a glimpse of Jarvis with everyone like when we're moving when we're watching that movie everyone was fascinating with the Jarvis and everything like the way it was handling every work to be honest like we'll start getting a beta version of Jarvis with everyone affordable because like when we're looking at that setup in the Ironman movie everyone was saying like this is not possible or I cannot afford it but now everyone will have their personal Jarvis in a year in some form of an applications or a multiple form where you you you know need to focus on any mediocre work or a mundane and repetitive work that will be replaced by the AI for sure you're only a few months in you have over 10,000 paying customers you have four to 100 companies using and piloting your product so when you think about the speed and the growth of rocket do you think that it's luck timing you as a founder like what what allowed you to be successful this quickly have you thought about that to be honest not it's like five months of success was with four years of hard work is what I always think about like it's not just in like overnight success so someone reach out to me like okay this is crazy like you got a 15 million dollars of fun in a 15 weeks I said it's just a tip of the iceberg like four years of hard work plus a 15 weeks of a rocket which leads to a 15 million dollars of seed drawn so it's always about that like I never think about the timeline and all what I always think about like where I want to go and how quickly I can go there and like I try to align my entire team towards that particular vision and the next milestone and that's how we work like 10 hours 15 hours a day it does not matter we just want to work and we just want to show it to the world what does success mean for you yeah I don't think much about it like I always think about the next milestone but for me the success is like when everyone will start using AI in the day to day life doesn't matter like what kind of a background that person is and that system is built from my city like when they when they go to know like okay so that is not just for the diamond so that can make a really good product as well for me that's the kind of success statement and another thing that I think is admirable like I mentioned at beginning how I love the fact that you are putting your city on the map and you're being a good role model for other entrepreneurs but you also focus on not just for making like a product first business so again you build something that people actually want to use and works well but you also focus on building a sustainable business so just touch on that for a moment because I think that a lot of people who are listening who are entrepreneurs they've heard of the importance of product like you know product first marketing product first entrepreneurship like have something that actually works as opposed to just an idea that you're raising money on like have something that actually solves the problem people want to pay for I think that's a very healthy way to look at entrepreneurship but what does sustainable business mean and why is this so important so sustainable this simply means like you need to have a good growth margins where you can survive your cake to elevation is to be in control without a good so in this in during the sales business like 80% where like a growth margin a standard growth margin below that growth margin was like bad in the in the edge of LLM when you know like your highest cost is going to be the LLM just to serve your customer and if you are just operating it like a single digit growth margin or a 15% 20% growth margin which is like right now everyone is doing it is quite a risk business in a long term if you're if you're not able to raise a big rounds and all and then if I get flattered you are the first one who will get impacted so you till in the edge of LLM you need to think about your engineering you need to think about everything to build a good growth margins and that's what I call a sustainable business you've mentioned a few different mental models that you apply to your business and to rock it and just like yourself as an entrepreneur what would be one more mental model or idea or principle that's really helped you out that you think somebody who's just starting building a young entrepreneur would benefit from learning the first mental model that I talk about is like first principle then second mental model that I've always implemented in my businesses like it's even not a mental model but it's like you should control your mathematics you should control all the funnels everything being a founder like if you're not in a finance space you cannot say like I do not understand you you need to control at the higher level you need to have a knowledge about everything like how your a burn rate is where your burn rate is moving how much fund you are having everything so ultimately when you know the mathematical questions very well you will able to control it otherwise you will not able to connect the dots so always take a decision after connecting the dots do not make a decision just based on a one situation you need to think from the future perspective you need to think from the current perspective you're competing a perspective the capability is your team is having so a business is all about like connect all the dots figure out your capabilities and then then build it like okay my computer is doing this so you don't need to jump into that you need to think at your own why why you want to do that is it aligned with your user is your team capable to deliver it or not so don't just get into a vanity matrix don't just get distracted by what people are doing have your own thinking and do something which you believe so just stay away from the vanity and less destruction just focus on something that which you are building do you find that do you find that when founders are scared to go into the data or the numbers they end up making more emotional decisions that's that's what founder is all about in the early days suddenly everyone makes that mistake and a many times like in the early days the problem is like you don't have the enough data and I would say like it's not all of every time it's all about like making a decision after looking at the data sometimes you need to take a bold shot like if change deputy look at the data before building the change deputy then they will never able to build the change deputy because no one we're talking about the GPT-2 and GPT-1 it's all about like this thing will work for the world and and that's how they build it so sometimes founders needs to be that visionary where you don't have the data and still you're making a call but it should not be like out of your all ten lessons you are making out of emotions once you have a stable business once you have a user data you need to combine both I want people to connect with you and I want people to go explore and try rocket and I want them to to try it out if you want to connect with some people that listen to this podcast where would you want them to go any kind of socials that you want to send them to website that they should go check out KX.com slash we shall be running 91 and on LinkedIn it's like LinkedIn.com slash we shall be running so these are like two platforms I've always last thing I like to ask is I mean you're given over a lot of wisdom and I mean you are a serial entrepreneur and you're building something that is it's truly bleeding edge but if you had to go back and tell you know 20-year-old Vishal one piece of advice what would that piece of advice be and why if I look back at like 20-year-old Vishal at that time like I was I want to do too many things like I want to do I want to run a service company I want to do product and many other thing after my 10 years and 12 years of experience what I realized like okay just focus on one thing make it like a perfect just give you a hundred percent into one thing so if you are a if you are at your early stage and if you're having lots of thoughts and a distraction just stay away from it just speak one thing align it to your life goal and just put your hundred percent of efforts to that and that's how you can make it bigger like if you are too much distracted and if you're trying to do too many things at the in the very beginning you you may fail so I did that in the early days and that's where I wasted my couple of years of life as an entrepreneur where I now I think I can I would able to do a much better job at that time if I know those facts so this is like one advice that I can give it to Vishal of like 20-year-old who started the business