How To Make B2B Podcasts Not Suck w/ Kap Chatfield & Rveal Media #scottsthoughts

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Today, you're going to hear me on the Reveal Media podcast with CEO of Reveal Media, CapChat Field. We go into four reasons why most B2B podcasts suck and then discuss how you can leverage podcasts to drive revenue, convert more customers and market your business. Reveal Media presents B2B Podcasting. Hey gang, welcome back to B2B podcasting, the official show for B2B CEO's brand leaders, marketing leaders and sales leaders to help them skip ads and be the show. It's all about creating content that actually attracts audiences or then repels them and helps you build a brand and generate demand so that you can grow your business. I'm your host, CapChat Field and we have a recurring guest today. We got Scott Cleary, my new brother from another mother from Florida. Still got to meet you in person, but man, it's been really fun to connect with you. Before we hop into the meat of this episode, you got some new stuff going on. I think since the last time we connected on the show, you switched your role, you switched your how you're making a living. What are you doing these days? Yeah, okay. I don't remember the last time we spoke on this show, but yeah, I'll give you the most recent version of what I'm working on. I do a couple of things. Obviously, if you Google me, there's a whole bunch of have a website, blog, newsletter, podcast, all that personal brand stuff. I can go into that all day. The company that I'm working for right now as CEO and co-founder is on me, Patch. We're a TransDermal Vitamin Patch company, so it's a nutraceutical company. My history has always been in tech, so if I'm thinking about the company you're talking about, my last company was acquired about a year ago. That was a B2B broadcast SaaS company. Definitely a pivot, but I'm still an operator. I'm still building stuff from 0-1 to 1-10 to 10 to wherever it goes. I love it and keeps me relevant. That's what I'm having right now. You're also what I would call a serial content creator. You got your own show, you got a YouTube channel, blowing up on LinkedIn and Twitter. We have you on the show specifically because one thing that I hit you up about was what are four mistakes that you would recommend avoiding for those who are getting into the world of B2B podcasting. Last time you and I wrapped, it was really all the reasons why you'd want to start a show specifically because of the scalability of the content and building a brand and building an audience that you can eventually monetize over time. I mean, the value of a personal brand is just, it's absolutely remarkable. But today, I wanted to talk about some pitfalls to avoid, just so you guys know, I asked, maybe an hour or two ago, what are the four mistakes that you would avoid? And my man had to Google it. My man had to go to Google and see what are people saying because his show is obviously working really well for him. But let's do this. You know why I had to Google it? I had to Google it because of the reason that I actually, when I'm starting to do research for the show, I'm like, oh yeah, these are good reasons as to why B2B podcast suck and why I actually don't love listening to a lot of B2B podcasts because of this. And then I'm like, so like this is why I'm like, well, I don't listen to a lot of B2B podcasts. And then when I start to dive into the reasons that people complain about, it makes a lot of sense as to why I listen to shows that I actually like that I under that are targeted towards me targeted or the content is useful for me, right? And we'll go into the nuances of what useful is and what and why some shows resonate with me more. But I don't listen to a lot of shitty podcasts, but I also don't listen to a lot of B2B podcasts. So that's a, that's a shoot issue. I listen to, I listen to podcasts that teach me about a variety of different things, but unless I'm trying to solve a particular problem in my business, then I don't love B2B podcasts. I find a lot of them really miss the mark when it comes to a consumer consumer B2C podcast or just like entertainment podcasts. So how do we bridge that gap? So I'm like, okay, so I actually don't know what sucks because I don't listen to it. But there's a reason why I'm not listening to it. So I'm really glad you said that was we didn't even talk about that before the pre show, but I when you started saying that I was like, dude, you're right. Like I don't, there's just there's such an abundance of content on the internet right now. You got like you don't even have time to listen to all the shows that you would want to watch or listen to. And so creating a really quality content is extremely important. And what you just said is a reason why a lot of B2B leaders don't actually start a show, even though it is probably the most cost effective, the most efficient in my mind, the most strategic way to create constant scale. A lot of people are saying, well, I don't even listen to this stuff. So why would I start it myself? So I think it's great. Why don't we just go through this list? We want to keep this kind of an airtight episode. What our goal is is going to be to pick four things from that list of like reasons why people, you know, or B2B podcasts end up sucking and then talk about them a little bit. And then we'll take a sky. I'll just have you send a link for that to me and we'll put that in the description so people can read the full article. But why don't you share the first one from that list that sticks out to you? Yeah. Okay. So actually, even in this list, which we'll link, there's actually 11, but there's four that I was looking. So when we jumped on the call 15 minutes ago, you were like, hey, did you get your list? I'm like, shit, no, I didn't. I actually just got a whole list. But I actually, in that in that 15, whatever 30 seconds before the show, I skimmed it and I found four that I thought were actually like the most relevant things that maybe simple things, but I think they're overlooked. So I'll go through, I'll just start with the first one. I thought, I think it's a very important thing to think about because I've actually heard this particular point discussed on someone else's show, the Martek podcast by Ben Shapiro. And he's created an incredibly successful, not just one B2B podcast, but he's created like five or six at this point. He's created a lot of B2B podcasts successfully. So the first point actually speaks about understanding the medium that you're actually speaking to, understanding the difference between a B2C and a B2B audience. And what a lot of B2B leaders who want to start a podcast will do. And I'm we're not going to go into the benefit of B2B podcasting today. That's another conversation, but say you're already bought into it. They try and emulate what a B2C podcast is. And if you think of like the B2C podcast, it's like the valuetainments or the Joe Rogans or the celebrities that people love them and they want to hear them speak for forever. That's okay, but that's not B2B. B2B there's usually something very like you think about the person that you're going to be targeting the content this person is hyper focused on figuring out a solution. I even alluded to this when we first started chatting. When do I listen to podcasts? When I'm trying to figure out a problem? So I don't need fluff. I don't need anecdotes. I need tactical solutions to problems that I'm facing in my day to day. And the problem that B2B podcasts, the trouble that B2B podcasts find themselves in is they try and act like an entertainment podcast. And they do not get to the tactical things immediately. So it could be because they just love podcasts and they try and emulate what they know. I don't know the reason why, but if you have a 60 minute B2B podcast, there's not 60 minutes of tangible content in that. Or if there is, that's too much for one show. So the recommendation is for B2B podcasts, understand that you want to deliver value, keep it and keep it short. Keep it as short as possible and keep it contained like we're doing with this one and try and only touch on points that people can immediately take away. So in this particular article, they're saying keep it between 12 to 15 minutes teaching over one particular point. And I know that's a fact is Ben Shapiro from the MarTech podcast. He started off with 60 minute shows and he went down to 30 minute shows and they only got like 50% retention. So people only listen to 50% of the show. And he finally distilled it down to like 15 or 12 minute shows and he got 100% retention on that show. So when he can, yeah, he gets 100% retention on the show. So this is not, this is one random article that I found, but I know this works in reality because he's built a few of these shows with incredible listenership and 100% retention. And if you have a B2B podcast at 100% retention, that's an immense amount of value. That means that you're delivering an immense amount of value. So anyway, that's that's my first, my first point. So understand who you're creating the podcast for and then tailor the actual time frame and what you deliver that content to that particular person so that they consume all of it. If you only have 50% retention on that podcast, obviously, they're not listening to the whole lesson. So why are you putting out 30 minutes plus of content if they're not listening to that? That's not delivering any value. So anyways, that's the first one. No, let's let me just put a bow on that because that's so, that is so true. I mean, the reality is is that if you're creating a show, you're creating content because you want to bring value to decision makers, hopefully, that will eventually come around and maybe buy your product. If you're in that place of being a decision maker, time is money to you. You don't have like 60 minutes just to listen to something and hopefully pull out the one nugget that was like the reason why you wanted to listen to it in the first place. And what's really interesting about this case study with Ben Shapiro is if he's doing this show and he's doing like a 12 minute episode and he's getting 100% retainment on a retention on that episode, odds are that person who's listening, they're not done with one episode. Like they listen to an episode, they get value, they go on to the next episode. That's about a topic that's going to answer a question that they have today that they need to answer today. And by the time they're done consuming this content, let's say it's over the course of a week, they would likely have listened to more minutes of content than if they listened to one full 60 minute episode from Ben Shapiro. Because it's basically putting them in the driver's seat to get as much value according to what they need as possible. So I think that's great, really tactical takeaway. Keep your episodes short, really be laser focused on who that audience is that you're trying to reach with your content. We say it all the time, be famous with fewer. Don't try to be an entertainment. If you're trying to create a BB show, don't try to reach the masses, reach the audience that you really want to do business with, get in, provide value, get out as quickly as possible. So let's go into the second one. So second point is interesting because the second point is further identifying who the audience is. And now we know it's a B2B audience and we figure that out. But for some reason, in B2B podcasting, and when I think back to the ones that I have listened to, so I pivoted industry, I pivoted from SaaS into CPG. So I listened to a lot of podcasts that were teaching CPG supply chain, CPG sales, direct to consumer, getting into retail, everything to do with CPG because I just, I just immersed myself. But I noticed this particular point is valid as well. So we've defined that we have to do B2B and we have to focus on a particular audience that we're not trying to get to the masses. But we still don't further define the things that we would normally define if we're running a marketing campaign or a sales campaign. So what do we do when we start selling or marketing anything, especially in B2B, we have ideal customer profile or ICP or TCP, whichever one you want to call it, then we have our buyer persona. So we have our ideal customer profile. So the actual company size, industry, category, geographic location that that company we want to sell into and then we have the buyer persona, that person who's the decision maker within that company. These are basic things for any sales and marketing play. And for some reason, the second we start a podcast, we're just like, hey, we're going to hit everyone in the C suite of our target industry. So I'm going to hit a CEO, CFO, CMO, C, I'm going to try and just get anybody who's in a CPG company that would have any problem, right? So I know because I'm listening to podcasts and one podcast will talk about supply chain and this next podcast will talk about going to ECRM and talking to buyers from retail. The supply chain conversation is good for a CEO and maybe even the retail. But if I'm trying to sell a product to a larger CPG company, if I really want to be effective with B2B podcasting, I should have a podcast that is 12 to 15 minutes, it's hyper focused on creating content that's only relevant for a CRO, CMO in a CPG organization or any industry organization. So if I target the whole C suite, that's like me running the same outbound sales campaign to a CIO, CEO, CRO, CMO, VP finance, director market, it would never happen. So why are you creating content like that in podcast form? If you have a product to sell, you still have to target the person that would be the most influential in making that purchasing decision for that product. So I think that that sometimes lost just because it's a new content medium and no one's explored it before. So again, apply the same learnings that you have for your sales and your marketing organization, ICP, BP, so ideal customer profile by persona, to the content and the conversations that you're creating on the podcast so that it's not all over the place. One thing that I would say tactically to Scott, for those who are thinking about creating a show and they're thinking, okay, we want to create this show, but we want to hit two birds with one stone and we want to communicate to two specific different audiences. For example, maybe you're a staffing agency and you want to speak to the clients, the businesses that you're going to be providing recruits for and you also want to be speaking to a talent that you want to recruit and plug them into these jobs. You have two different audiences completely, two different desires, two different languages that you're trying to speak. The challenge is that people are going to try to be too efficient and try to speak to both audiences in the same show. My challenge would be, think about creating two different shows, one show for the audience, for the B2B audience and one show for the recruits. Don't try to mix them up too much because you will likely end up losing both if you try to speak to both on the same show. There's something about when you create a show, it's almost like you're inviting someone to a party and they step into that party and immediately they ask themselves, am I in the right room? You don't want your audience to feel confused about whether or not they're in the right room. You want them to step into that room or listen to that show and have the feeling go through them or the thought go through their mind. This is where I belong. It was as if this was created just for me. If you got to pick one, whichever one is the priority, build upon that and then move on to the latter one rather than try to combine them. I would say one more thing that you could do and you can let me know if you think this is a good idea or not. If you don't do two separate shows but you do have two specific audiences, I would say make it explicitly clear even in the title of the show. I'm just going to go back to if I was running a podcast that was focused on SaaS sales and SaaS marketing. In the title of that particular episode, I would write something like at the beginning, SaaS marketing, colon and then the topic and then I would do SaaS sales and colon and then the topic. I would actually, if somebody skimming through my shows and my all my episodes, they would know which ones are meant for which particular person within the organization and I would also make it as part of the intro too. You don't have to keep people guessing. In the first 15 to 30 seconds, say welcome to another episode of Caps, SaaS, revenue podcasts, this particular episode is for SaaS sales leaders. Tune in every Wednesday for a SaaS marketing or I don't know, something like that, but you make it explicitly clear. If you really don't have the bandwidth for whatever reasons our two shows, any two shows is probably the best. But if you want to roll it into one, then you make it like you overcommunicate which show is for this particular person and then which episode is for this particular person and then which episode is for another kind of person just so that there's no confusion. I think that's an important point too. I think that is a great stipulation and I do agree with you, but I will say that there is a trade-off with that because if you go down that route, think about what we just talked about with the 100% retention rate. I would even try to measure, return rate, return audience. If you have an audience that subscribes and they're like, I want to binge every single episode, if you do that, you're going to be more efficient, but the risk associated with that is half of your audience. If you're doing a show for two different audiences, you're going to have to build two different audiences and half of that audience isn't going to consume half of your content. So you're just going to be prepared for that. Okay. Third point, again, it's all about thinking about what you're trying to accomplish with the show. You should always be answering the question. You should be answering the question from the audience's perspective. Why should I listen? So what is the clear CTA? What is the clear thing that that person is going to learn and going to be able to action on when they consume your content? I find a lot of B2B shows just throw information out and they don't actually explain to the person exactly what they're going to be taking away from that particular episode and or the entire show. If you move away from B2B podcasting and you think about best practices from YouTube creators, what is a YouTube creator, even like a Mr. Beast will always say in the first 15 seconds, explain explicitly what that person is going to take away from that from that 10 minute YouTube video. In this video, I'm going to this video. Yeah, I'm going to and it's so simple, but that's that's not done. So that's so what they what do they do? They introduce the guests, they talk about their accolades, they don't actually explain what we're going to and they sometimes they do, but majority of you just start doing the interview and they just start chatting and they just speak about what we're going to talk about. We're going to talk about this, but they're not saying what you're going to learn. They're not saying you are going to be able to do this at the end of this podcast. Do that up front as opposed to doing some summary at the end after the conversation is already done. So take lessons from YouTube creators that tell you in the first 30 seconds that hook as to why you should stick around so that people know why they should be listening. So that's another thing I think is definitely lost. I don't even have anything to add to that. I think it's as simple as that. Just tell I would say one thing that we we talk about in public communication is when you're creating the format for anything, whether it's a keynote speech or even a podcast or YouTube video, there's three things you got to do. Number one, tell them what you're going to tell them. Number three, number two, tell them. And then number three, I almost forgot how to count. And number three, tell them what you told them. Okay, tell them what you're going to tell them, tell them, and then tell them what you told them. So you're giving them, as you mentioned, like your talent, your casting vision for where you're going to go in the middle, you kind of unpack that that might be like if the first part is the, you know, let's say it's a 25% of your message, the middle is the is 50% and then at the end you summarize, remind them what you told them, that's the final 25%. Okay, that's great. Let's go on to number four. Okay, so I have five. I have five points. There's two that are very important. The fourth point is that people don't have conversations. And I think for two seasoned podcasters, like us that we're having right now, we're cool riffing on stuff. I'll throw it over to you. You throw it back to me. You have a counterpoint. You're okay. When you screw up counting, you like, oh, I almost forgot how to count. Like, you don't care because that's like how real people talk, right? That's how people actually communicate. And I find that when people that do entertainment podcasts, they usually have a little bit of a personality already. They've, they've, they have some sort of person, I'm not everyone, but a lot of them have a little bit of a personality. But when you throw somebody into a B2B podcast, it could be a senior exec or it could be like a junior marketing person. And they've never created content before and they're not comfortable on camera. You start to get, in some cases, like a little bit of like a question, answer, question, answer. And it feels like so regimented and it feels awkward and uncomfortable and nobody likes it at all. So the best podcasters are the best conversation lists. They're, look at, look at again, Joe Rogan. I'm not telling you to do a three hour podcast, but this man can talk about anything, right? He's just a conversationalist. And actually, I should find an article that talks about how Joe Rogan keeps conversations going for three hours because he has different types of ways to pull out additional information. When I say something, he'll ask follow up questions in a certain way, even if you don't know a lot about the topic, a lot of good podcasting and conversation things that you can learn from somebody like that. But ultimately, it has to be a conversation, not a question, answer, question, answer. So work on not outlining every single question that you're going to ask in the podcast, but work on being able to just riff on things to, to converse, to respond, to retort, to just have like a normal conversation like you would have with somebody in a coffee shop. So don't feel like if somebody's hit on a really good point, that you should just move on to the next thing immediately. Like, take a second and just chat about it and go deeper. I know that, you know, there's all these different ways to get the most out of somebody like you go like five levels of why or, you know, you ask like why, why, why and every time you ask why or you go and level deeper, like there'll be more that will be pulled out. Remember, you're talking to like industry experts, they love this stuff. So give them a topic that they're passionate about and push them to go deeper and push them to and ask why this happened or ask why this didn't work because sometimes when somebody's being interviewed, if they're not interviewed a lot, they'll also forget things and they'll also forget certain nuances of a thing that they have figured out in their business that is going to be highly relevant to the audience. So push them a little bit and it'll it'll feel awkward at first, but it don't worry because they're used, they actually appreciate it because it gives them the opportunity to go a little bit deeper, but also yourself as the interviewer start to just riff on people's topics and don't feel like you just have to move on to the next thing immediately. It'll make for a much more organic conversation, which again is increasing the the listenability of that's a metric, the listenability of the show because people just like listening to people, not robots. I want to give a couple of tips that are going to help somebody who wants to become a better conversationalist when they're doing their show. Just I literally just wrote these down as you were sharing this. So you can love to hear if you agree or disagree, Scott. The first thing I would say, because I 100% agree about not making it too scripted, putting too many questions that's like your goal is to get from one question to the next because the audience can feel that, right? But what I believe is an outline is still really important to help give you direction. To make your outline really like a skeleton, it really should be very simple as simple as possible. Even in this conversation, quite honestly, we have a very simple outline. We have a plan, we have a little we had a little surprise. We're going to have a bonus one after this, which I actually love. I'm glad that we have a bonus one after this fourth one. But we have enough structure to tell us where we're going, but enough breathing room so that we can go down these different trails together. And so that's why I think we'll be really helpful. People will be more confident in going off the rails and going into these little tangents. If they have a very simple outline that at least keeps them safe and headed towards the right destination, that's the first thing. And the second thing that I would say is to practice genuine curiosity as the host, because your audience will be able to tell if you're disengaged. If you aren't asking good questions, if you're not asking stories and like really just showing that you're interested, like the audience is going to be vicariously curious and interested through the host. So you have to lead through that. And one really simple way to practice that is like when you're at a party, you know, I don't know if you're like a social butterfly Scott, I'm not. Like when I go to parties, I don't want to talk to 20 people and have a 30 second conversation. I'd rather find like three one to three interesting people and have a meaningful 10 minute conversation with those individuals. And so I'll kind of like keep volleying up. And like when the conversation feels like it's going in for a landing, I'll just like, I'll try to see how we can keep it going and try to mind it out of them and continue to keep them be the topic. Like if they're talking about themselves, you get this as being a salesperson. If you can get them to talk about themselves, like that's going to be anybody's most interesting topic of conversation. And so learning how to practice keeping volleying up and keeping that conversation in the air before you actually press record. You know, that's very smart. I love it. I think that I'm also the same way when it comes to parties and whatnot. Like you try and go deep with people. It's more fun to go deep with people. But also I don't want to just reiterate when you focus on what people care about, which is their own lives, their own stories, their own passions, you pull out the most interesting insights and and be present too. Yeah. Be present. Like that's why it's don't have your phone on God forbid and be like texting or don't have other tabs open. Like be very present with that person because they read it and they feel it when you actually care about what they're doing. Let's go. Number five. Yeah. The bonus. Number five. Number five. I'm actually I'm so bad. I'm combining two into one thought or a fifth. So it's actually five and six. But I'll explain why. So the five and six, which is really just five is understanding where the podcast fits in your funnel and understanding the CTA that's associated with that portion of your funnel and then include that CTA. It's almost three. Oh my god. That's almost three thing. But you have to be aware because this is the B2B portion of it, right? Yeah. For sure. Is it the B? So understand where the podcast sits in your funnel is a top of funnel. Is it for converting people that have already consumed 10 hours of your content and have gotten 20 emails from you and had four phone calls from your inside sales? I don't know where it is. But no, you have to know where it is as the person who's putting this out into the world as a business leader. And then also include that CTA that makes sense for that part of the funnel. So if it's top of funnel and they've never heard of you before and you're hoping to get, you know, maybe you throw it up on YouTube and YouTube is the second largest search engine in the world. And somebody discovers you there, then your CTA maybe should be to find a way to capture their email, download a white paper, whatever it is, go to a webinar. I don't know. But the point is figure it out. Have a CTA include that CTA and reiterate it in the show notes as well as verbally when you're actually recording so that you don't just leave it open so that you tell people where they should go. And if you if you sync that up, if you sync up your ideal customer profile, your buyer persona where you are in the actual funnel, either the marketing or the sales funnel. And then you actually have a CTA. That's when you start to see like very tangible results from a B2B podcast. That's my last one. I love that. And I love that you're thinking even contextually where that piece of content is going to live because we've talked about this before. If you're going to do a show, especially a video podcast, the ability to repurpose your content is almost endless. Like you can use it on almost every different platform. But you also have to be cognizant of how people consume content on those platforms and understand like where would that where that platform fit in the entire funnel? The buyer is probably the best way to to the to highlight like that's what you have to figure out. And if you don't have your buyers or any figured out and you're just throwing out a different piece of content or medium, you will be frustrated with the results. You know, Scott, as we close this out, I think it'd be fair to our audience to know that we're on this journey together. Like we're here to learn, we're here to grow. We haven't figured out the perfect formula. I'll tell you what, I'm interested in seeing the rest of that list, but I'm already pretty convicted by a couple of these. So I would love to hear from you first. Like which one of these sticks out to you personally that you're excited to implement for your own show? Hmm, it's a great, it's a great question. I think for me, I think a better CTA, that's personally my goal, a better CTA. And the reason why for me, because I do know my audience, I feel like I can converse relatively well after doing like something like 300 different episodes. Like I don't really have a problem with that, but for me, it's a CTA and that's more of a personal business decision. Like where do I want to send people in my in my personal funnel, in my brand or my business's funnel? And that's what I have to sort of cement. So I'm, you know, like if you can't do teach whatever it is what it is, but that's something that you always should solve for. And it's not like, it's not static either, right? And the reason why I have that issue is because my podcast is more associated with my personal brand than my business, but my business, my personal brand is a business. It is monetized. I do have advertisers. I do have newsletter subscribers. I think my CTA right now is to go subscribe for my newsletter. And I'm a big fan of like owning email lists, as opposed and keeping and moving people from all the different social platforms into your own email list when you, then you can really control that audience. So that's my CTA right now. But I mean, I'll always think through what I want to accomplish. Do I want to send people to YouTube to subscribe? Do I want to send people to a product that I have would eventually create to get them to buy that? I have no idea. But that's something that I think is if you nail in all the other things, that's the one thing that you always have to keep thinking through. That's great. I love that call to action piece too. And I really, I'm going to be thinking through specifically how to leverage all these different channels a little bit better, a little bit more with more focus for different calls to action for each of those, those different channels, even though it's kind of the same content, the same content just in different places. We'll really stick out to me the most was the part about going being more hyper focused with the episodes, right? Because even on our show, I don't think we have many episodes that go anywhere super close to 60 minutes, but we're kind of sitting around the 45 minute mark. And as a consumer of content myself, I appreciate a 15 to 20 minute episode that's very laser focused. That's very tactical that goes right to the point. And so that's going to be something that I'm really, I'm going to be really thinking through about how we move forward and making sure that if anyone's going to commit any any amount of time to listening to our show, that they never feel like, okay, let's hurry it up. Let's get to the point. I would never want to leave an audience feeling that way. So this was great. Scott, thanks so much for not doing your homework and stealing your roof, ripping it off the internet because this is this is actually really meaningful. I think I'm going to get better. I think you're going to get better and hopefully our audience produces better content because of it. So thanks a lot. No worries man. I appreciate it. Thanks for having me