Guy Kawasaki, Chief Evangelist at Canva | Investor, Author, Podcaster

The only podcast you need for your business, let's do this. Welcome to the sales versus marketing podcast, I'm your host, Scott. Join me as we explore and demystify the latest trends, technologies and strategies used to achieve massive growth in 10X businesses. I'll be sitting down with sales, marketing and business leaders. The second, what's work for them, the spell myths and deliver actionable insights that you can use to ensure repeatable, sustainable and predictable revenue in your business. Welcome to the sales versus marketing podcast where we sit down with sales, marketing and business leaders. I'm your host, Scott and today I am very excited to be sitting down with Guy Kawasaki now. If you've been living under a rock and don't know who Guy Kawasaki is, Guy is a renowned business leader, originally a member of Apple's Macintosh team in the 1980s. He is a Silicon Valley icon and a widely respected expert in entrepreneurship, venture capital, marketing and business evangelism. Now Guy is currently the chief evangelist of Canva, an online graphic design tool. He's a brand ambassador for Mercedes-Benz and an executive fellow of the HAS School of Business at UC Berkeley. He was a chief evangelist of Apple and a trustee of the Wikimedia Foundation, a BA from Stanford and an MBA from UCLA and he has an honorary doctorate from Babson College. Now Guy currently is working on his remarkable people podcast. He takes on over 50 different speaking engagements per year as well as has authored over 15 books over the course of his career. So he's achieved quite a bit in terms of, like I mentioned, marketing, entrepreneurship and just business in general. So I'm very excited to sit down with Guy and speak about what he's working on now, evangelism and some career advisor people that are a little bit earlier on in their career. So without further ado, Guy Kawasaki. Let's speak about what you're doing with Canva in relation to evangelism. And why is evangelism important for companies in 2020? I am the chief evangelist of Canva and I have to explain what evangelism means. So evangelism comes from a Greek word meaning bring the good news. So I'm bringing the good news of Canva. And the good news of Canva is that Canva has democratized design so that anybody can create great design. You don't have to be a trained designer and you also don't have to buy or rent expensive Adobe products. So think of Canva as Photoshop for the rest of us. So my job is to make sure that people are aware of the good news of Canva. And that's not unlike the first job in my career, the first tech job in my career, which was evangelizing Macintosh. So Macintosh is good news was it made people more creative and productive. And Canva's good news is that it is making everybody into a designer so that they can communicate more. And that's what I do. And why is evangelism now a role? When it before it just seemed to be something that was a good practice, the best practice for companies. Now you sort of codify it into something that is an actual chief evangelist office. Yeah, I don't I didn't intentionally codify it. But I think what happened is that people realize that you know, simply advertising and promotion, which are forms of bludgeoning people into becoming your customer is not as effective. It doesn't last as long. It's also more expensive. Whereas evangelism is selling your dream. It's getting people to believe in something as much as you do. So if I can get people to believe in Canva. And if I, well, I think I did get people to believe as much in Macintosh as I did, they carry the battle forward for you. So with sales, the object is close to deal with Canva, excuse me, with sales. The object is to get with sales. The object is to close the deal with Canva and evangelism. The object is to get people to believe. So and by the way, I the only thing I wanted to mention was we were just speaking about how long you want this to go and you're like, I want to get surfing. The only reason why I usually run these for an hour is because I'm in Toronto. So I have no beach. I'm looking out. I have minus, you know, 20 degree while I'm Canadian, so minus 20 degree Celsius. And it's just bleak and miserable. So I respect. Yeah, I got nothing else to do. We could we can talk all day and it's going to be better than going inside and getting whipped in the face and went, well, you know, that's not my problem. But no 100%. So evangelism evangelism is something that obviously I think a lot of companies are doing now. The celebrity CEO, you see it a lot. And that's that's kind of what it's doing is removing. I don't want to put words in your mouth. So feel free to interject, but it's removing the brand from the company into an individual that's sort of being the champion. So can you go ahead? Well, I don't theoretically and ideally, it's not that there's a single evangelist for the product or the company or the service. It's not even a separate department. Everybody in the company should be evangelistic about the product. So if you met the accounting person at Canva, you would see that he or she is evangelistic about Canva. There are people like me who have that in their job title, but everybody in your company from the shipping clerk to the receptionist to the VP of HR should be evangelistic about the product. And this is not to say that, you know, the celebrity CEO is often evangelist for the company, but not always, you know, many times the highly visible sort of CEO as brand, and that's more about the person than about the evangelism. So don't assume that every visible CEO is an evangelist. It would be a better and better assumption that every visible CEO is a jerk and some of them are evangelists, not jerks. I like that. And I think you're I think you're 100% on point. Now I also like that you made a point of stating that everybody in the company in a marketing environment 2020 should be an evangelist. But I, you know, if we look at companies, I don't think that's the case for most. In fact, it's the opposite. Well, you know, to be successful in this perfect world with everybody is evangelistic. The start is a great product. And let's just say that not every company has a great product. So it's very hard to be evangelistic and succeed as an evangelist for something that's crap. It's hard to evangelize crap. So how do you so as somebody who's in their career, where should they be looking to align with companies? Like, you know, the interview state like where it's you're at a point in your career where you can have that luxury and you can align with companies that you truly do believe in and you've had the experience when somebody's earlier on in their career, what should they be asking? What questions should they be asking where maybe they can sort of better vet the company to make sure that they do align with the company who they can eventually evangelize and really try and treat like their whole mission? You know, so, okay, I want to completely contradict myself in a minute. But to start, you know, go to work for companies that make stuff that you love. And if you love something, it's easy to be evangelistic about it. If you're just doing it for the money, take an extreme case, you know, I don't think many investment bankers love private equity. You know, they don't get up and say, how can I make the world a better place with private equity? How can I buy low and sell high and that's going to dent the universe and make the world a better place? So, it would be hard to be evangelistic about private equity. On the other hand, with a Macintosh, with Canva, it could be an electric car. You know, I bet many Tesla employees are evangelistic about Tesla that they believe that, you know, this is a way to prevent the end of humanity. So it takes the product or service that's the high road and that's the start. Now, I said I was going to completely reverse myself. I will also tell you that I'm not naive. So let's take this case where hypothetical case, so you go to work for a company that sells, I don't know, pet supplies online. And you know, you like dogs, you like cats, but you're not a dog kind of guy or a dog kind of gal or a cat kind of guy or a cat kind of girl, but you got this good job at this company. It's a startup and you don't hate animals, but that's not your passion. And all of a sudden you get on and it becomes a rocket ship and you're selling hundreds of thousands of cans of dog food and cat food per day and leashes are flying off the shelf and flee powder. You can't even keep it in stock and you know, all this kind of stuff. And now the company's valuation is $5 billion and because you got in early, you got 1% of a $5 billion company. Trust me, you will get passionate about pet supplies. You may even be able to convince yourself that you're evangelistic that you've made pet supplies more inexpensive, you've made pet supplies more available to people, you sell better kinds of pet supplies. So I'm not completely naive, I'm not telling you it's all pixie dust and unicorns, but the start is a great product. I like that a lot. Is that something, is that a mantra that you've tried to live by it like in your career, like through Canva and then like obviously originally Apple, which, which part of what I said are you asking me about the whole not, not the, not the love for the company, like the falling in love for the company after they sell a million cans of dog food or flea repellent. Is that something that you've tried to sort of internalize, like is that something like when you were younger self, much younger self and you were, you're, you're setting out in your career. Is that something that you had top of mind or something that you sort of come to terms with like over your career? Wait, are you, are you saying if I had top of mind that if something takes off, I'll become in love with it? Or are you saying no, did you, did you go in, did you go in vetting and loving, for example, Apple? Yeah. I would say that when I was at the start of my career, I had not yet figured this out. So it was just plain, no pun intended, dog shit luck that I fell into Apple because of nepotism and I tell you, when I saw Mac and Darce the first time, it was a religious experience. I mean, you're too young to know, but back then computers were not exactly what they are today. And there was no mouse, there was no graphics, there was no GUI, et cetera, et cetera. So when you saw the first version of that, oh my God, yeah, the angels started singing and the sky is parted. So, but I can't tell you that I sat myself down and said, guy, you got to look for something you love. Let's face it, when you're 25, 26, 27, you just trying to figure out how to make money. It just happened that I figured out how to make money and I fell in love with what I was doing. Yeah, that's the, first of all, that's, that is very fortunate because I don't think a lot of people. That's very, very fortunate. Imagine if I went to Goldman Sachs, I mean, although you know, maybe I would be saying, I love private equity, I'm changing the world with private equity. So let's, so I will, I will ask a few questions just about your career in a bit, but I really do want to, we kind of dovetailed off of what you're doing now. So you were, you're evangelizing a camp, but you realize the importance of evangelizing and across the organization. But I want to, I want to understand why you and your career right now, you're building out your own podcast, yeah, you're building out your own community because that is something that you're doing for yourself. Yes. So walk us through why that's important. Okay. So there's two answers to that. There's the high road and the low road, both, let's hear both. Okay. So the high road is over the course of 30 or 40 years, I've been very fortunate to make a lot of relationships, gain a lot of visibility. So I have achieved a position where I have the context and the connections to create a podcast like I have, I, I am an active listener of podcasts and most podcasts have guests. And so I, I, I, I looked at that, I said, wow, you know, guy, you know Jane Goodall. You can get to Margaret Atwood. You know Bob Chaldeady. You know Sean Thompson. You know was, you know Stephen Wolfram, I mean, these are remarkable people. So you could interview them about their remarkableness, how they got there, what they did, you know, on their advice, their takes on certain issues. I just released a podcast about Leon Panetta and Leon Panetta was secretary of defense director of the CIA chief of staff of Bill Clinton. You know, he knows a few things about politics. He can help you interpret what's going on right now. So the high road was, I figured out that I have the context and the connections. And now the time to create a podcast where I can really get remarkable people on record to preserve their wisdom for posterity. So that's the high road. The low road is, I've been making 50 to 75 speeches a year, which means 50 to 75 trips per year, which means, you know, one trip per week on average. And I am just sick of traveling. And so when I came out with my latest book wise guy, I was on the other side of these kind of things. I was the interview, E, as opposed to the interviewer. And so I would talk to these people like you, you know, I'd say, so how many episodes, how many downloads do you get? And what's your business model? Well, I sell and add at the start, I'm sorry, let me just, no, no, it's no, I, I, I, I, what was I saying about the, the, the, you see, like, how do you know, when you, when you first started being the interview, oh, yeah, yeah. So I was, I was asking interviewers about their business model, you know, so what's your business model? Well, I sell ads. How many ads do you sell? Well, one at the start, one in the middle, one in the end. And how much do you get to the, for these ads? I get 20,000 for the first one, 15,000 for the second one and 5,000 for the third one. So I, you know, I'm not that mathematical, but I can add 20 and 15 and five and get 40. It's like a 40,000 per episode. I said, now how many episodes do you do? Oh, you know, between 100 and 150 a year. So now I can multiply 40,000 times 100 and get 4 million. And I said, so you tell me you making at, at best case, even if you're lying to me, 4 million, I divide that in half. That's 2 million. So even if you're lying to me by a factor of 2, you're making 2 million. If you're lying to me by a factor of 4, you're making 1 million. So why am I getting my ass on the plane 52 times a year? And you're just, you know, doing podcasts without much travel and making either one, two or four million bucks. So I said, I'm going to be a podcaster. I'm not going to like be a public speaker anymore. So that's the low road reason. It's not a low road. It's smart. Because if you're going to, well, so this is going to, this is going to segue into really where I wanted to drive this home because people are in their career, I work at 9 to 5. So I manage a sales team, a software sales team. And this is something that I'm doing as a passion project and it, you know, it really doesn't take a lot to, to build something that you're an expert in that you can do on the side. And you don't have to be like, you're not going to get the Jane Goodalls or, you know, that level of access, I think you interviewed Arianna Huffington, like that level of access is obviously reserved for people that have sort of built out themselves in their career and they're at a certain point. How many? It doesn't mean you don't get. How many instances success? It only took 40 years. The only 40 years. They don't see the, they don't see the 40 years. I have to, you know, I just asked you like, you know, how many downloads are your, is your podcast getting an obviously ramped up much quicker than most, most other people to start, but you've put years into this. So I think that just, but still you recognize that it's an easy thing to do. It's still a, it's still a low labor. That's a whole other relative. I thought it would be easy to do. It's not that easy. I mean, there, there's no free lunch in the world. So I don't know about you, but when I interview, I have such a diversity. So I interview Jane Goodall. I have to understand chimpanzees. I interview Bob Childini. I have to understand social psychology. I interview Leon Panetta. I have to understand international relations and politics and Congress and government. And I interview Sean Thompson. I have to understand surfing. Well, that, that kind of had that. And then I interview Kristi Amaguchi. Well, you know, I'm not a big Olympic figure skater. So, you know, I have to figure out Olympic figure skating. So there's, I think five, four or five hours per interview prep. There's one hour of the interview itself. And then I get the transcript back and the, you know, the, the, the, the first pass of the audio. I think there's another four or five hours of editing of that that I do. And that's the editing in the post. And then I give it to a sound designer. And he probably puts another four or five hours into it. And so now we have a finished product. And then the hard part begins, believe it or not, because the hard part is getting the word out. And you got to use social media and mail chimp and newsletter episodes and live, you know, live video conferencing and holy shit. I mean, webinar and all that. It might be easier to get on a plane 52 times a year. I think, I think, I think the whole point is though to start. Like, that's really, like, I encourage everyone to just start because you, yes, you put a lot of love, you put a lot of love into this, you put a lot more love than a lot of people put into their thought. You see? You put more love into it. I think so. I think so. I think so. I think that I think also the more you do it, the easier it is to remove a little bit of that prep because you know the questions that are going to come up and you can guide people down, agnostic of what they do. You want to be a little bit educated, but I think that it comes a little, I think it gets a little bit easier. I hope it gets a little bit easier. Well, how many episodes have you done? So this is, so is it 20? I'm at about 13 and I will tell you though that I have obviously been on this side, right? And so I know when somebody truly knows who I am and somebody truly doesn't. And so, you know, you, you can ask five or six, so, you know, what was a career, what was your career path? What was the secret to your success? You know, and then it's obvious, what was it like working for Steve Jobs? So I know when they've looked at my Wikipedia entry, but I also know when they've done a deep dive. And so when I do a deep dive, let's take someone like Jane Goodall. So when you interview Jane Goodall, if you want to show her that you've done a deep dive, you have to say to her, well, tell me how without a bachelor's degree, Lewis Leaky helped you get a PhD at Oxford. So you didn't have any undergraduate degree and you got a PhD because Lewis Leaky helped you. Okay. So that's not something that might be too obvious, although that is in her Wikipedia entry, but you know, that's a, it kind of a detail. And so I don't think most people interviewing Jane Goodall would ask her, you know, like, how'd you get a PhD without an undergraduate degree? And when you ask, when you ask Leon Panetta, when you're interviewing Leon Panetta, everybody's asking them about being in the sit room, it'll sound a bit loud and you know, all that, but I try to ask them so let's look at, I hope you know who these people are, but let's look at James Madison, John Kelly. So John Kelly was the chief of staff for Trump. James Madison was secretary of defense, both marine generals, they lasted a couple three years and then they were fired or left or you know, whatever, resigned. So I asked Leon, so I said, you know, how do I interpret that? Do I look at it and say, well, is, were they, were they complicit? Is the attitude, well, you know, I only work for Trump two or three years. I'm not a bad guy. I left after two or three years. But you know, you could make the case, that's like, say, well, I only work for Hitler for two or three years, man, I wasn't that bad, I left after two years. Well, not, you can, you can believe that. On the other hand, I said to Leon, so Leon, tell me, you know, is it that or is it, these guys were patriotic Americans, they, you know, they sacrificed, they went to work for someone, they probably didn't ideologically agree with because they loved their country and they thought they could prevent disaster from the inside. Which way do I look at that, Leon? And so that, that's not something you just read Wikipedia and you come up with. So I don't, there's a whole diet travel about how hard it is to ask good questions, I guess. Now, let me, let me ask you this. Now I feel like all my questions are in the microscope. So you got me to do this again. No, no, no, it's good, it's good. I like it. I actually really like where this is going. So do you find as a marketer, you think that there's more value in delivering that granular content, or do you think that the, to, to, to scale the podcast and to get it and get as many people into this possible, knowing that the people that you're speaking to, people already don't have an idea of what, like, they don't even, they haven't gone on their Wikipedia. So does it make sense to get that granular, or does it make more sense to stay high level? And what's better commercially? Listen, when I have two and a half million followers or episodes downloaded or two and a half, two and a half million copies of each episode or download, I will tell you the answer is, I don't know, I mean, maybe everybody asked those kind of simple, easy questions because that's what everybody wants to hear. So I don't know, you know, of the people who listened to Leon Panetta's episode, I don't know how many were wondering, so yes, how should I think of John Kelly and James Mattis? That probably never occurred to 99.9% of the people. But then, you know, isn't that what makes Terry Gross a great interviewer? Isn't that what makes a great 60 minutes interviewer great? Not that they asked the softballs. So maybe I'm only appealing to 10,000 really smart people in the world. I don't know. I really don't know. No, I'd be curious. We'll have to do, we'll have to do a follow up when I, when you're in Toronto, or maybe when I, you know, I actually know what? I would prefer to go there. Yeah. 10 at a 10 times. I'll prefer to go there. I'm not in Hawaii. I'm in California, but still, California is better in Toronto. Oh, I thought you, okay. I thought the world's greatest story, remarkable story. It's happened in Toronto where the, you know, the Zamboni driver played for the hurricanes and beat the people. Yes. Well, first of all, how hard could it be to beat the Maple Leafs, but that's a great story. It is. That was funny. I did see that. That's a great story. And the reason, and what I like to do when I have these interviews is I really like to focus on what the people care about right now, because I find that when you really dive into what you care about, it's happening right now to get passionate about it. I know that, I know that your podcast is relevant. I know your podcast is new, and I actually, I was listening to a couple of, a couple minutes of the episode, the, what's this with the, oh, the, the guy you're just being apologized right before. The Alian Fennetta right before I'm Canadian. So I, I actually did, I don't have the same, I don't know him as well as an American would. But it was very interesting, and I like how you structured it. I like the format. It does. Listen, with the hours you put in, it comes out quite well. So like, like, one would hope. Geez. So, so what's next, what's next for you in your career? You know, you're, you have, you have so many things going on, and I'm not going to read your Wikipedia page, because everyone else can do that. So I want to know, you know, you have your podcast, you're, you're, I guess, you know, you say not, not semi-retired, you're still working obviously, but you still probably want to enjoy life a little bit more, you don't want to travel as much. You want to sort of focus on what I want to focus on surfing. So I take a break from surfing to work, and in a perfect world, I would just surf and be with my family. That's truly what I want to do. So podcasting is conducive to that, and I just, you know, I need to get a revenue model going, and I don't know if I can, I mean, it's to be determined. So that's what I want to do. I, I jacked up my speaking prices, so I've demarcated myself, maybe, maybe I demarcated myself too much, but I demarcated myself. And listen, I'm 65, I'm almost 66, so yeah, the clock is ticking. I, I don't think I'm going to look back on my life and say, man, I wish I had made more speeches. That's, that's not too likely. No, I don't think so. I don't think anyone says that. Maybe they, listen, like speaking is like a necessary evil if you're trying to build out your brand. But at the end of the day, it's, it's always a lot of work to travel and you're not to wait. You're not home. You're not with your family. You're always on the plane. People think the traveling is exciting, but they have no idea, it's just, you know, like for me, I get on a plane, I get off, I get in a car, I go to the hotel, I go to sleep, I wake up, I get in a car, I go to the airport. That's it. And that could be any city in the world. It could be as beautiful as Vancouver. It could be, you know, I don't know, anywhere in the world. That's what I do. So, when people look at my schedule, wow, you go to these great places, well, yeah, except, I only know the Hilton ballroom in every city in the world. No, I know. So I think that, you know, it's always funny. I actually just, I was speaking with this last week because I was just in, I was actually just in Montreal, then San Francisco, then I went over to Germany. Now I'm home. So I'm complaining about the weather, but I'm home, I'm relaxing, like it's, and by the way, out of everywhere, you know, okay, not San Francisco, nobody expects San Francisco to be cold, but Montreal, even Germany, I went to a soccer game in Germany in the middle of February. No snow, anything. So Toronto is, I think, one of the coldest places I've ever been in my life, but that's, so I'm happy. I'm happy that you really dove into the podcast piece because I know that that's what you're doing now. And I think that the perspective of somebody at, you know, your level of your career, your point and where you are in your life and you're starting this out is really beneficial. But I have a prediction with my podcast that it may be 10 or 20 years after I die, but at that point, that's when my podcast will be most valuable, not because I'm dead, but because so many years have gone by that I have created a really great archive of history, of remarkable people. And so, you know, someday people are going to say, you know, we're going to look back at this Trump time and they're going to listen to the recording of Leon Panetta that I did in 2020, might be 2040, and it's going to be very valuable. I just wish it would happen before I die. Well, I think, yeah, I think we all kind of hope that all the work we put in is going to be going to have some sort of merit before we, before we kick it, but what can you do? I agree with you though, because like the people you're interviewing are very, very, like they're very polarizing, like their stories, like they're very topical. Like it's very, very cool. I like the concept a lot. I think it's like a really great niche that you've tapped into with just like the people that you have connections with. My positioning statement is NPR without the fun drives. That's good. So that sort of wraps up like what you're working on now. I don't want to beat that to death. I think that for people that are listening to this, no, I'm serious. I know that I know that you're still sort of figuring out how this whole podcast and how to monetize, there's so many ad partners that you can tap into. I'm not monetizing mine, but that's something that I've been looking into as well. Because I'm still early days, like I'm still early days, but you can go into ad partners. Like there's people that will sell ads, you can sign up, they're bringing you different deals and stuff like that. Like it's like any other, any other agency. You've reached out to me already, but I think it doesn't really get interesting and relevant to you get 100,000 downloads per episode or something like that. So I'm not going to make myself crazy to make a couple thousand bucks or a couple hundred bucks. It only gets interesting when it's tens of thousands, right? And so... Yeah. Well, you know what you should do. You should get on Joe Rogan. Yeah. That's... I don't have the pinnacle. He hasn't called me yet. So... Okay. Well, soon. Soon. I don't think he knows that you're into the podcast, but... I don't think he knows why I'm a period. So... Ah, no. You don't give yourself enough credit. He should. If he doesn't know, that's his own fault. Okay. What I wanted to ask, I wanted to ask a couple of rapid questions just to sort of frame where people are at in their career. So out of your entire career, what would you say the number one most important lesson is that you've learned? Oh, so... This is a typical question. So... It is a very difficult question. It's vanilla as ever, but I love it. It certainly is. Oh, one second, here. My surfing partner just said he's getting ready, so I'm telling him my mole's done. So... That's why I'm asking knees. I'm wrapping up. I'm giving him a good time. Okay. I think... In terms of running a company, you know, product or service, I think the most important thing, the two most important things I learned first is that never ask people to do something you wouldn't do. So if you wouldn't go through capture, if you wouldn't give a credit card number, if you wouldn't fill out 25 fields of personal information, then if you wouldn't jump through all these hoops, then don't expect your customers to. Don't expect your vendors to do something you wouldn't do. Don't expect your employees to do something you wouldn't do. So that's advice number one. Advice number two would be that it's very difficult for your current customers to tell you how to truly, truly revolutionize your business. So I think if you talk to your current customers, they're all going to tell you better, faster cheaper, better, faster, cheaper Apple 2. But better, faster, cheaper Apple 2 is not a Macintosh. Nobody told Steve, built me this computer because all they could think about was Apple 1 and Apple 2. And so to truly, truly innovate, you have to be ahead of the crowd now. So then, you know, who do you believe? Well, I'm telling you, it's not your install base. So it's your gut, it's your passion, it's your luck, it's people younger than you. I wish I could tell you there's 100% way to do this. But I am pretty confident that if you went to your existing customers and said, what would you like from us, they're only going to say better, faster, cheaper. So on that point, try new things, iterate, it's okay to fail, but really like look outside of what you're already doing. If you really want to take it to the next level. Basically, you say something like it's okay to fail. That's not true. It's not okay to fail. I think it's okay to fail because that's like some millennial bullshit kind of tech start-up thing. It's not okay to fail. It's not okay to fail waste people's money, waste people's time, waste people's careers and all that. Now, I'm not saying that if you fail, you should commit suicide. But you should do everything you can to not fail. If you do fail, at least you should learn from your failure. But I think this acceptance of failure has been too cavalierly thrown around that, yeah, let's just raise five million bucks from these fat cats and we'll throw it up against the wall and we'll buy foosball tables and we'll get in our- We'll get the kombucha in the refrigerator and we'll give everybody a hersial backpack and get our skinny jeans and put on our facial hair and our Thursday boots and five million here, five million there, let's see what happens. That's bullshit. That's bullshit. Yeah. I agree. No, I agree. I think that that attitude of blow money and it's okay to fail was propagated incorrectly out of the, you will fail but just learn and improve. I think that it was taken way too far. So anyway, okay, this is another one that I'd like to ask, biggest regret or mistake in your career and why? Well, I've had so many launching a podcast. I left Apple twice, I turned Steve Jobs down for another job. I was asked to be, to interview for the first CEO position of Yahoo, so right there that's about, I don't know, $4 billion. But I- That's bigger than any mistakes I've made. Yeah. I mean, everybody makes those kind of mistakes. Who the hell knew that Apple would be a trillion dollar company? So I, you know, I would say I haven't made like absolute, total stupid mistakes except for the $4 billion. On the other hand, I haven't had this tremendous success. You know, I'm not Elon Musk or Steve Jobs or Bill Gates, right? So I'm in the middle and that's life. So you know, I still need to work, I have to pay tuition so life goes on. And you have time for, you have time for one more vanilla question, then you can go through it. Okay. I'm looking at the script right now. Okay. Alright, got it. One, last one, most important. If somebody wants to take their career to the next level, what's the skill they should focus on? It doesn't matter. It could be something technical. It could be personality. What's that one skill that can really take you? I'll give you a high level philosophical answer that people can struggle to wrap their minds around. I love it. Draw an X and Y axis. And on the X axis, you have the degree of differentiation. And on the Y axis, you have the degree of value, how valuable you are. And so in this two by two matrix, all of life boils down to being unique and valuable. So if you have a unique and valuable product, like iPod, when it first came out, the only way you could legally, inexpensively, easily have music in your pocket, iPod is successful. If you are the only person in your company who has a particular skill that's valuable, you'll be a very cherished employee in your dating and marriage. If you are unique and valuable for your spouse, you never have to worry about getting divorced. So all of life boils down to becoming unique and valuable. I love it. That's a good answer. That's one of the better answers I've heard, you nailed it. Anything, anything to open floor, if you want to close with anything, anything that we didn't discuss, I just want to put out an impassioned plea that people subscribe to my podcast so that they can get remarkable too. And the podcast is available at remarkablepeople.com. I promise you, there is no better content. Good, good. I love it. That's all I got. Okay. I'm going surfing. Bye. All right. Thank you so much. I really appreciate the chat. Bye. Cheers. Bye. So I hope you enjoyed that episode of the sales versus marketing podcast. Thank you so much, guys, for the great chat. If you haven't already, please hit like, hit subscribe, and please share this podcast with all your friends, family, co-workers, peers, or anyone you would think who would benefit from learning from senior sales, marketing, and business leaders. This podcast is available wherever podcasts can be download or streamed and is also available on YouTube. Please, please, please, please, leave some feedback. Any rating is okay as long as the five-star rating and have a really, really productive week, have a wonderful week, and we will speak again soon. Bye now.