Heather Combs, CRO at 3Pillar | Women In Sales Leadership

The only podcast you need for your business, let's do this. Welcome to the sales versus marketing podcast, I'm your host Scott. Join me as we explore and demystify the latest trends, technologies and strategies used to achieve massive growth in 10X businesses. I'll be sitting down with sales, marketing and business leaders, dissect what's worked for them, dispel myths and deliver actionable insights that you can use to ensure repeatable, sustainable and predictable revenue in your business. Thank you for joining me, your host Scott, on the sales versus marketing podcast where we speak with sales marketing and business leaders. Today I'm sitting down with Heather Combs who is a chief revenue officer for three pillar global. Now, three pillar global is a global software development firm. They help brands like National Geographic, PBS, Park Mobile, Equinox to name a few really really strong names that you would know to build more revenue generating digital products. So in her role as three pillar, Heather sits at the intersection of sales and marketing and she's helped propel the company through a period of sustained growth. Right now she oversees marketing, business development, sales, operations and over 900 people globally. So she is integral in creating, crafting and executing, implementing revenue acceleration strategies that are currently driving three pillars, continued your over year double digit growth. So very, very impressive what three pillars doing what Heather's doing now to give you a little bit of background about Heather before I pass it over to her before joining three pillar. She's a chief business development officer at the HR certification institute to responsible for overall revenue strategy, led product management, strategic partnerships and sales orgs. Prior to HRCI, she was a chief business development officer at Ironson and a chief sales officer at Hannover Research. She spent 13 years at CEB at corporate executive board where she led project management sales to partnerships initiatives. She's named member of the year by the institute for excellence in sales in 2019 and is on the institute for excellence in sales, IES executive leadership advisory board. She's been named top 25 women leaders in tech services and consulting the software report and she's been published in Fox business news, which is massively impressive. So she always speaks on stage about sales leadership tech women and leadership positions in sales leadership positions. She's a native of Texas. She has five daughters which are currently at home with her. So she's taking a little bit of time and I appreciate it to chat with me. She holds a master's of public service administration and a BS in political science and psychology from Texas day in and she's very passionate about obviously sales revenue business operations, women in corporate leadership and a variety of other topics. So I'll let Heather like take it away give us a little bit of background about how you have such an impressive resume across the kind of organization you've been senior for a while now and varies like executive where did you where did you come from what was what was your you know your starting point. Well, thanks God if if somebody walked around reading that all of the time I would understand why I don't sleep very often it sounds like so much when it when it's all together and really the job in the office I'm much better at than the one at home with all these little girls who are out of school at the moment. So definitely let's talk about the career the short story is I came up through politics. I landed in Washington DC working for a congressman and then after my master's degree returned to the area with the points of light organization. So I thought I was going to do politics and the nonprofit space and while I was in that I quickly discovered that you can't pay school loans and rent in Washington DC on a nonprofit salary. So it led me right to the the consulting track which in the 90s was the big way for people out of graduate school to to go into one of the big consulting organizations and I joined the corporate executive board as they were going public from the advisory board. So is this 400 people that were carved out and sent to launch CEV into what became this mammoth organization that was acquired by Gartner and by joining a growth company on that curve I just had a tremendous set of like opportunities ahead of me. I was able to move through the organization in all kinds of different roles as they were rapidly growing that gave me a really well-rounded background in business from all kinds of angles. That's really so that that was like that was what really defined and moved and gave your career momentum like that that aligning with CEV while they were on such a high growth. So after after CEV went through several different several different roles like you sort of dabbled in product management sales, BD, what made you fall in love with sales? Well in all of those roles I think the truth is I think of myself as building businesses. We whether you're just determining the pricing strategy or the contracting methodology or putting into place a new market for your business you can you can put those all under the umbrella of revenue or sales and marketing but really it's about building the organization and generating the profitability that it needs to grow. There are all kinds of ways that you can help organizations in that and of course the actual sales of the organization and the brand building that is in marketing is just happens it happens to be where my passion is like I love that aspect of it. And then so is that what is that what led you to what you're doing now like just like the passion for building a brand aligning that and and basically driving revenue through that brand and like that higher level strategy that's because I know you had a few different a few different roles in between CEV I think and and through pillar. That's right so in those years between CEV and now at three pillar where I've been for the last three and a half or so years I was helping organizations either as a W2 or as a 1099 to really achieve their goals. So I was going in and out of organizations that had a large goal ahead of them and they were trying to find their path forward whether that was at Hanover launching into the commercial space or at HRCI which had just split and gone their own way from Schirm and needed to really build a brand in the market separate from their Schirm affiliation. Those were the kinds of projects I was taking on. I was asked into three pillar initially as they were going through an inflection point of really having been a startup and needing to build into a corporate entity. So they were nine-ish years older so when I joined and that they were kind of going on as rocket ships to the right of needing to make sure that they had their place carved out in the market we now have you know strong industry strategy a strong brand in the market and that needed to be built and I fell in love with the organization it's a just a great place to work. And when you when you started with three pillar did you go like immediately into that into that CRO role or did you did you start somewhere else and then move into that? I did I started with them as a consultant for the first several months helping them think through building out this industry strategy and as I fell in love with the organization and they asked if I would stay on in the full-time role as CRO I said yes and I've been here ever since we have just actually exited our initial private equity company and taken on major capital we closed earlier this week and so I think you'll see as well even more in the years ahead and can you give me a little bit of just a background we were chatting a little bit before before we started this but I want people to understand the context of what three pillar does like what problem are they solving why do you why do you love working there? Well three pillar builds breakthrough software products that power digital businesses so it's some of the most exciting space to be in we are helping companies figure out what their voice strategy is so if you ask Alexa a question for several of our clients you'll get an answer that we helped them program if you are buying furniture or building a room onto your house you might use our 3D modeling capability or if you're paying to park as you run those errands and you hit one button on your phone to do so you're touching the kinds of things we make so you're just we're in that space that is really changing the way people live work and play through their digital application in some cases they're doing so in such a ubiquitous space you don't even realize you're using a product the technology just surrounds you in that way so I think it's just it's exciting there's something always interesting coming through in a project the client base that we work with is unbelievable so it's a lot of fun for me no I appreciate that and I think that my biggest eye opener was a really great really great talking point that we were discussing it was the fact that these companies that I sort of want to frame it up because I don't know maybe I'm just naive so I don't know but a lot of these companies don't have all these the staff on hand and they don't have the different opponents of a software development team they do have some but what what three pillars really offering and providing and the the pain point they're solving is they can sort of backfill those different those different spots as a company tries to develop this thing or that thing for for their customer base so I thought that was very interesting and I like the names that I mentioned before like National Geo PBS park mobile equinox and I'm sure there's many many more um those are those are large household names so like what you're doing right now is very impressive I uh I didn't realize it exist to this extent for that level of customer right I think that there's a term in the technology space that's product engineering is what you can think of it as the shortcut might be outsourced engineering but it is when companies reach out to a professional services firm like ours to help them really bring to life a vision that they have of something they can bring to the market but that in-house they might not have the capability to do so so one of our largest clients is it is an insurance company and so you um imagine that no one there um probably has the skills to build some kind of um technology product that you where I might use every day on our phones but they might have a fairly wide team that helps them keep their website running their mobile app running so they bring in these specialized skills in order to really take it to the next level on the customer interfacing side of their products yeah no that's um it's very valuable I'm very impressed that that you found yourself in this position like through this massive growth curve so it seems like I don't know if you find the growth or or you facilitate the growth but it seems like you're always in a really good spot which is a career lesson so I think that's an important take boy just at a high level you do want to make sure that you're lining with the recovery company I think you're doing that now and you've done it before um I want to I want to speak uh unless you want to go a little bit more into three pillars it's your choice but I do want to speak about something that you're very passionate about and that I think um I would love to to cover just because I don't have enough expertise in it personally um because unfortunately I I am not a woman and uh although I'm in sales leadership I can't speak to it um so I want to I want to I want to hear your thoughts on on women and leadership women and sales leadership I think that there's obviously I think that in leadership in general um we're not seeing the same variation or or or lack of of strong female leaders as we see in sales leadership I don't know too many female really strong sales leaders not even strong like and at all I don't see a lot of female sales leaders I don't see a lot of females in sales I don't see a lot of women as uh you know as the count executives as SDRs I don't I don't see that and maybe it's just the environment that I'm in because I work for a very legacy type of industry but let me like maybe you can fill me in like am I am I totally off base like you know is is the sales world changing um are we are we seeing more you know I guess across the board and maybe in San Francisco and emerging tech that we're seeing women getting into sales which is being an amazing thing um or are we still sort of uh are we still sort of struggling in that I I hope it's improving and I certainly encourage women to lean into all of the great benefits there are um in the sales career field I think that women have moved quite a bit from the place where they they they didn't feel seen and heard to um the place where they were mostly seen and heard in what in what I think of as like female audiences so you saw women leading companies that were based in fashion or um yes to production but now women are really executives at all types of companies across all industries and so I I hope women are making progress here and they're seeing the opportunity and they're feeling it regardless of type of company or industry that they're in I so I think that I think that in general I have seen more women in in leadership positions outside of like the the types of industries that you just mentioned like fashion and and uh and food and whatnot but I still think we have a long ways to go I remember reading an article uh Forbes uh named so it was like the Forbes top 100 uh tech sales a tech leader or something like that I think there was like one woman on the list and there was a big you know outcry like like you you screwed up like you you f'd up Forbes or I think it was Forbes and if it wasn't I apologize but they're like that is still unfortunately I find very very symbolic of what a what a tech leader is and it's and unfortunately I think that women are permeating a little bit more and and they're having more of these really really strong roles which is a good thing because you know we can speak about um we can speak about what women bring to the table that men lack and there's a certain amount of empathy and communication and and just a strategy that I've I've found personally working with women um that I find is a really strong driver for successful business that I don't think men bring the table to the same extent um in general and these are all obviously all generalities uh but I really do believe that women's having to leadership roles is is an amazing thing regardless of industry obviously but why why is sales such like a hot topic like why why have I not seen a ton of like women female sales leaders even when I'm looking for guests for this podcast like I you know I get a hundred I get a hundred VP sales you know directors CRO's CMO's all coming at me they're mostly guys like I don't know if that's just who wants to put themselves out there and jump on a podcast or or if that's just sort of like an indicator of the of the industry um but uh maybe you know well remind me to send you a list because I know a lot of fantastic women in these roles so I'll introduce you to a few I would love I would love but I do think you're right I think that sales and marketing and frankly lots of leadership roles but certainly in sales and marketing it requires a certain level of confidence and willingness to throw your own hat in the ring you have to take that opportunity you see in front of you and jump in even when you don't feel ready so the research is fantastic that no one is ever ready for the the next job they take but then we'll put themselves out there if they are just fractionally prepared that they that their experience in that field where women will wait until they have all of the skill sets listed experience in each of them and feel like they have mastery and so they won't um jump into career fields or positions or um try to have work their the path to promotion until they feel more than adequately prepared whereas men will jump forward and so I really encourage women uh throw your hat in the ring raise your hand say you're willing to take it and accept that nobody is ready on day one that's really um that's interesting I wonder why that is I have no idea what but I you know even like thinking about like when I've applied for jobs in the past I've always with a hundred percent certainty known that I can eventually do that job but yeah for sure there's things on that list of you know requirements they've got for bit most of those most of those job postings are just like boy they're played copied over and and the hiring manager doesn't even know what's on that job wreck but um like I'd say there's a large majority of things like yeah okay well like I've never done it before but I'm sure I could figure it out kind of mentality when you're going into apply for a job um and it's funny that that's sort of the that's what's limiting um women from like actually stepping into those next levels in their career I think women sometimes also hold themselves back artificially um imagining forward the obstacles they might hit and so one in the industry that you hear a lot is um sales and marketing both require a significant amount of travel um it can be lesser more depending on the industry and what you're selling or marketing but for most of them they're not office jobs and so women will say well someday I want to have kids so I'm not going to take that job um and one I would say to a women don't plan for a tomorrow that hasn't happened yet you can take the job change careers at any point so if you were in your 20s thinking about sales but thinking someday I don't want to travel take the job now someday you don't have to travel and then for the women who who are looking down the path of still needing to travel um it's really possible I mean I have five girls and I make it work I have a fantastic partner he doesn't have to travel with his job and so he's there we have a live in opair um one of my biggest pieces of advice is to outsource anything you can so if you have the means find the things you don't love and have someone else do them I don't um you know I have people who cut the grass in the summer for example but find those ways that you have time and capacity to continue doing what you love um there it's really doesn't have to be the self fulfilling prophecy that you that you might think early on I'm saying well I'm not going to be able to do X so I'm not going to do it now and I guess that if there isn't that thought in in a man's head of you know I'm he's not thinking like I'm gonna stay home with the kids and this is again a generality but when I jump into jobs um especially before you know I also have an amazing part at home now and we're settling down and planning a life together so maybe that is more of a consideration the lack of traveling so we can sort of share duties as we as we grow our family um but uh you know when I was jumping the jobs it was never like I was never thinking oh I'm gonna have to stay home with the kids one day and it's not it's not something I consciously thought of it was just it wasn't on my mind at all like it just wasn't you know so that could be another inhibitor um for someone who's looking step into that kind of you know role that could be international travel a lot of responsibility those high-level executive sales rules absolutely and I think women will hold themselves back from giving it at a shot and figuring out how they can make it succeed rather than saying that they just aren't going to go there um I really go that's right no no I had I had I had one more point that I wanted to to bring up that is really important for me because I don't think it gets discussed enough and you know I'm whenever whenever I speak about um women leadership I'm very very conscious of of what I'm saying because I don't want I don't want to offend somebody by speaking in terms of what I've seen the landscape of sales leadership to be because I am a firm believer that more women should be in this and you know you mentioned you had a list and I think that would be great to like go through and sort of speak some of these success stories and I've I've also worked with other female leaders but what I don't think is the answer is when women feel they need to act like men I think that I think that that's the wrong message and I have seen not seen that message broadcasted but I've seen that kind of um personality sort of the need to replace a man as a woman but I don't think that's the answer and I think that's the wrong message and I think that I think that as a strong female leader you have to double down on what you do best and I don't think that's you know acting all all all like uh you know like the what's the word toxic masculinity you don't have to emulate that to step into a sales role and I think that unfortunately that's something that a lot of people feel if they're going to sort of hold that position I you know I love that you brought this up I couldn't agree with you more that the answer to having more women in leadership roles is not to have women act like men so that now we have all the same again I think whether it's men and women or diversity of all other kinds whether that's age or socioeconomic or cultural background or international experiences every time we bring different thinking to the table the end result gets better and so rather than having everyone strive to act like the the male counterpart the individual they see ahead of them who's been successful let's each bring our unique experiences and our unique abilities to the table to make the end goal more accessible from all kinds of angles and women in particular I mean we represent half of the population and we're we are more than half of the buying power in the economy and so having those voices in the purchasing decisions and the way products are built only will make the outcome better so I think you're absolutely right I encourage women not to feel like they have to not be themselves the flip side of that discussion is that men in particular have to come to respect the differences and the capability at the table as well so the biggest place I see the problem there is usually on communication style men will be very forward very aggressive they will cut people off in conversations in order to make their point and women by either social training or nature or whatever it is will tend to wait until someone completes a thought and then therefore look either less passionate or less confident in their answer so those are kinds of things that the women have to to own what they're good at and do more of it and then the men need to really accept the differences okay so how do you how do you change that perception and and I think that as sales and and revenue evolves from less of an art to more of a science because I do believe in like activity-based management I believe that coaching is is coaching to behaviors and pain points in the rep not just pipeline review all these things that are sort of bringing people up as individuals and require a little bit more than just an aggressive like do more but they're telling the person how to do it approach to to sales management I think that those all lend cadence to somebody who can be a little bit more thoughtful empathetic self-aware I think that traditional sales like the concept of traditional sales people is broken and I think that broken concept is associated with a more aggressive management style and that's why I think that as we see some hopefully we see some companies that are more forward thinking and how they look at sales and they look at what dry successful sales organizations and marketing as well but I think sales is a little bit more broken than marketing I would hope that that that opens up more of an intellectual sales leader as opposed to a like a spreadsheet taskmaster type sales leader that unfortunately did exist and and still exists some in some places but we're seeing that less and less so well here at three pillar we we do a lot of work on empowering women in leadership and in technology in particular so I happen to get to stand in front of a parade of an amazing group of women who have built a market force called empower her where we take professional skill building to our women and to the community in order to help empower women to especially women engineers to join the technology and stay in the STEM fields so I really have this like awesome spot to sit in with it but I in that women in in leadership elements I think that you see that women can accomplish all kinds of things in other methodologies we have had at times an all female engineering team so led by the engagement manager all the way through the engineering talent who was then purchased that team was put together and worked with a female buyer at a major media company so it was a female buyer buying an all female team of engineers working together to produce a product and it sort of legend around here that they came together and what they produced but I think that those are the instances that even organizations should think about that I think our female buyers even get excited about seeing all of the women that we have in technology so it just differentiates us in the market and it and it really helps attract amazing talent to the organization. I like that a lot it's smart because like if you think about all the other all the other groups that we use to sell to like we sell if we're trying to target a certain culture we usually bring somebody in who is closely associated with that culture that we're trying to sell to say if it's on a global level because there is already a level of trust that is built between those two individuals so why would that not also carry over to if you're working with a female buyer right you're not going to you're not if there's language barriers between two between the sales rep and the customer you're going to have a very hard time trying to close that deal so that's why you're going to send somebody who can speak a native language or all these little nuances of sales that we already do when we're selling globally right but I think that that to build an organization that understands that power is important but not a lot of organizations I think have such an emphasis on this so you know as a as somebody who's young in their career a woman who's trying to navigate the the sales force or just her for future career say she say she knows that she has to sort of put herself out there she has to apply for those jobs she's going to learn a lot a lot a lot of the skills she has to lean in but she doesn't have that support where would she go if she doesn't have it in her own organization I there are all kinds of wonderful organizations out there that will help mentor and encourage and support women to grow in those successes so I always encourage women have a great set of mentors and as you have the opportunity be a mentor to others I think there are benefits on both sides I participate in all types of like I'm on the advisory council of an organization called STEM for her and the goal of the organization is to help middle school and high school girls stay excited about and ready for careers in technology and in the STEM fields and in that I meet all kinds of amazing successful powerful women from their career fields and they make me better and they provide opportunity and I encourage other women to find those outlets so find organizations they're full of women if you're in the greater DC area reach out to me and I'll plug you in with our empower her movement if you are in a couple of other major cities have great wonder women dinners fortune runs most powerful women which has got an amazing newsletter that comes with it that sort of tells you all about what's going on but there are lots of tips and tricks that women can do to find their people and you'll encourage supported and trained up in in their career fields I think that's very important because like I've done that for myself from my own career for just looking for mentor groups and whatnot but to understand that that there is this there is this sort of gap this gender gap in in tech leadership sales leadership I think it's important to align the people that can sort of get your foot in the door or give you the give you the right mentorship that can sort of help your career forward so that's something like I always advise I always advise it lining with mentors regardless but I've never really thought of it from that lens that you that you have to go into these specific groups that will really drive your career understanding your situation more than an agnostic of you know industry right agnostic of of of what you're actually doing in your nine to five like they understand like the struggles that you're dealing with from like an actual gender perspective like that's huge and that's that can probably be so empowering for people that are are really like go getters trying to get to the next level in their career and they just feel like they they don't have anybody so I don't know if a lot of women who are in sales or in tech or just looking at brother career know that these groups exist but if they don't I would I would definitely suggest you go seek these out maybe even like at the end of this I'm gonna get I'm gonna get the best contact info for you so people can can understand where or how to reach out to you maybe just reach out to you to to get an idea of what to look for in a mentorship group so that they're pointed in the right direction too absolutely would be happy to help that way and I'm you know I encourage women who have made it through the the trail they've blazed to the place that they are to turn around and help others so that our daughters don't experience any headwinds that we did coming up through this so I think that for those women that are coming up seek support and encouragement and connections and networking and mentorship from women who've been there before and women if you are in the position of being a hiring manager or a mentor yourself turn around and help out those that are seeking our support do you you mentioned something and we sort of spoke about this a little bit outside of just from you know this is sort of like internally motivated feeling comfortable going into careers and going to new jobs and that's something that's already gonna help your own careers as somebody who wants to increase or go to the next level in the workforce as a woman obviously you find other major challenges that you've experienced in your career that you would say people should be on the lookout for or how to navigate those challenges maybe just like a couple like a couple examples of things that you sort of had to work through I think that a couple of them that are probably too obvious maybe overly cliche is that early on in my career of course we were we as women were spoken to in a different way you know you might be in I sold initially to lawyers for example and so you might be in a legal office and you might be getting called honey or sweetie or and those things don't happen anymore certainly the world has changed a great deal luckily I certainly think also as you climb through your career perhaps people are less condescending as they might have been in that moment but I even said in the moment that it was happening it's like use that for good if you can sort of turn away just let them set low expectations for you and then exceed all of it in the moment just jump over that hurdle and then impress the audience so that the person who called you sweetie as you walked in is the one that looks foolish afterwards yeah I think that the the other place to make sure that you're just pressing through whatever discomfort you have is that there are lots of meeting rooms you're going to be the only woman in and so accepting that accepting that you look different that you're probably a different height of most of the people in the room that you you might be wearing something different than most of the people in the room and sit in that discomfort as not something that holds you back but rather that that you find exciting and empowering you say I'm not the last that will be here I just happen to be the first or today I'm the only but next time I have the opportunity to bring someone into the room I'm going to make sure that it doesn't look like this I love that perspective that's really really that's powerful and it's really it's a really healthy perspective to look at it that way I think that like when you're when you're when you're in that position I think that one more point that I would like to add on to that is that prepare yourself for that understand the reality that in maybe in sales and tech and in certain industries there probably won't be as many women as other industries so if you sort of prepare yourself mentally don't let that sidetrack how incredible you are in the moment and that's only something that will ever happen if you aren't prepared mentally for that situation that you're sort of stepping into absolutely yeah one thing so I wanted to I wanted to just ask a couple more there are a little bit more vanilla questions just about like lessons you've learned over your career but I kind of just want to give you the floor for anything that that we haven't discussed or that I haven't sort of brought up in terms of leadership tech leadership women in tech or sales leadership is there anything else that that you wanted to to discuss? you know I was thinking about the question I get around like the best advice I would give so you asked early in the conversation about how did I wind up in leadership early on and then how if I had leadership roles and differentiating just heading sales and marketing to really leading a business and growing a business I would encourage those folks who are interested in going to the executive ranks to make sure the thing they are investing in is understanding the business as a whole I call it business acumen but making sure they can read a balance sheet making sure they understand what the other departments are doing and what their important element that they provide to the organization is there can't be someone in an executive room who doesn't understand the larger part of the organization that is about profitability or about the cost structure or about how our talent is recruited and cultivated you really need to know every part of the business and to be able to understand a conversation all the way down to its most technical financial aspects to really sit there and so that's what I would encourage people is don't if you want into the leadership roles don't get so siloed that you can't see the big picture very good advice is that actually that sort of dovetails into some of the some of the closing questions because I always ask like what is like the one piece of advice you tell you tell you know you're 16 year old self 15 year old self that's very very technical business advice and I appreciate it and I agree with you is there more high level like learning or career advice that you give to your younger self that was sort of help accelerate to where you work today say yes say when you get asked to do crazy things you get offered to do a two-year stint in the London office say yes you get asked to lead an initiative to launch the conference strategy for an organization say yes you get asked onto a different team in a different department or you get asked to lead and advisory council say yes find all of the places that you can say yes the people you'll meet the experiences you'll get the rounding of your skill set will be invaluable no matter how you know timid you are on the front end yeah that's great advice so you know I've always found people that are you know high achievers they have mentors they have books podcasts audibles and I'm sure there's more than one but what is like what is one mentor one person or one learning source that you could recommend people go and check out maybe something that you're into now so I'm a voracious reader although that's a little bit of a cheat I really listen now to almost all of my books on audiobook so that I can move at the same time whether it's driving or on the train up to New York or or standing in an airport waiting on my flight I can consume another book and so I encourage people to read and to learn and to expand themselves I am it currently in a little bit of a place where I'm reading and listening to a bunch of books and podcasts on the concept of there being too much noise so how do you slow down to go fast and I can all kinds of one's called noise one is called stillness is key there's a great book called rest there's a Dan Pink book called when that's all about the timing the importance of timing that are all super interesting and really help us think through how distracted we are and so that's that's what I personally am studying at the moment but I have a long list of books I love if if anybody wants to reach out on LinkedIn yeah so that's so that's a great again a great set you you must have you must have a sixth sense because you're basically helping me go into my next questions so how do you how do you somebody reach out to you would it be LinkedIn email what's the best way yes I like to think of myself as super approachable and accessible so if you see me out in the in the market come say hi and if you want to reach out before then LinkedIn is the best and I'm Heather decombs on LinkedIn LinkedIn calm slash in slash Heather decombs yes perfect awesome okay so thank you I appreciate that that was a really really good chance or anything else you wanted to close up with because that was that's exactly what I wanted to get out of this I just wanted to really dive into into woman and leadership and I think we we really really did a good job of covering that and gave a little hopefully people that were listening some great ideas and a little bit of inspiration to sort of take their careers at the next level yeah I would just say thanks for having me thanks for leaning into and really pressing on the the conversation and helping women achieve their career goals and us working on some gender balance I love sales and marketing happy to come back and talk anytime on a more specific topic or to join the cause however you're fighting it but thank you so much for for being on frontlines no my pleasure it's I'm glad that I'm glad that you were able to speak to it because I don't I don't know as much about you on this topic at all obviously and and I I love the I love the topic I know it's an issue but I hate speaking about something when I'm not educated enough on it myself so I appreciate you coming on and sort of giving us a little bit of insight in context is to like you know your background but thank you wonderful thank you so as always this has been another episode of these sales versus marketing podcasts thank you Heather for joining if you haven't already please like subscribe comment and share you can rate our podcast any rating as long as it includes five stars you can download this podcast wherever you can download podcasts and you can also watch it on youtube as always have a great day have a productive week and we will speak against you by now thanks for listening to the sales versus marketing podcast brought to you by ROI overload delivering strategy technology and insights to both sales and marketing leaders and teams love