Micha Kaufman - Co-Founder & CEO of Fiverr | How One Man Disrupted the Entire Job Market

When I told the idea of Fiverr to many people, everybody told me that this was either crazy or just stupid idea. How do you take a simple idea and turn it into a global marketplace? Nietzsche Kaufman, co-founder and CEO of Fiverr knows exactly how. Who would think with companies like Fiverr? This is like a factory for incredible entrepreneurs. Sometimes you succeed and it feels like it's the end of it. The order of building a successful business that is actually doing good to you monitor against you. Since launching Fiverr in 2009, Nietzsche has grown it into a platform with millions of users across 190 countries, offering over 10 million gigs and 30 million services, but here's the real question. How did he turn the gig economy into a multi-billion dollar industry? In this episode, Nietzsche shares the journey behind Fiverr's success, the bold decisions that shaped its future and his insights into the future of world. The value of ideas is exactly as easy. If you go through in your mind the hopes that you need to go as you build the company, it would probably be done. Welcome to success story. I'm your host, Scott Clary. The success story podcast is part of the HubSpot podcast network. I'm also a big user of HubSpot products. I've supported the show for over three years now and for all entrepreneurs out there, I need you to go back to a time and place when building businesses as tough as it is can be sometimes a little bit fun. When you're marketing, it should be fun. But marketing is not so fun anymore because it's very time consuming, it's very difficult, and it feels like there's just a lot of friction. Content was simpler to make, leads were easier to capture, and we weren't all spread so thin. As marketers, as entrepreneurs, the bottom line is that marketing used to be fun, it's not so fun anymore. But with HubSpots newly launched marketing and content hubs I've been using it myself, it brings a little bit of fun and creativity back into marketing for your business. They're going to generate better content, they're going to generate more leads, and next level results which really make marketing fun again. So with tools like Content Remix, you can turn existing assets into all new pieces with just one click. Lead scoring helps you shine a light on the leads that are most likely to purchase and analytic suites they built out will help you with reports, KPIs, and just a gold mine of AI powered insights. It's quick to get your results, it's easy to use, it connects all your teams and your data, so put the fun back into your marketing funnel with HubSpot. Visit HubSpot.com to get started for free. Hey guys, thank you for coming on. I'm excited to do this. I'm excited to chat with you. I wanted to kick it off with this. So you said that entrepreneurs are irrational optimists. So take me back to a moment when you first had the idea of fiber. What was going on in your life at the time and what made you irrationally optimistic enough to pursue the vision despite, I mean, you can talk about the millions of challenges you've had over your career building list. You talk about the challenges of building a marketplace, but what was like the younger, irrationally optimistic, Micha? Yeah, I say that because I think there is a little navy thing that comes with starting a business because when you think about it, the value of ideas is exactly zero. You build value through the craftsmanship of building a company and evolving it and pivoting it and taking something from an idea to execution and testing it on on actual customers. And I think that you, I mean, if you go through in your mind the hopes that you need to go as you build the company, you would probably give up. And along the way, there's you're going to you're going to hear so many times the word no or the words it's never going to work or it's a stupid idea or it's a waste of time or there's not there's no real business behind it that if you think about this ahead of time and you don't put in the optimism of being able to go through this, then it's a it's a it's a it's a pretty impossible journey. And so I think that you need you have to be, you know, infinitely optimistic to think that you can pull it off. And the more daring the idea is, the more daring the vision is, the more optimistic you need to be about it, right? Like if you start like, okay, think about think about the mission of fiber. Um, it's to change how the world works together. This is like who makes up these, you know, these missions. I mean, this is like, that's huge. At least it needs dreamy self confidence to even, I mean, this is presumptuous. This is like, um, it's it's over the top large. When you think about the fact that you you think about this mission out of your bedroom or or your your little house. Um, and thinking that you can you can actually pull it through. I mean, if you're not, if you're not extremely optimistic, um, to the point of being orderline delusional, you're not going to do it, right? And in the truth is, most cases, it's not going to work. Um, but those who don't try will never, I mean, it's like, I mean, you're worried. If you, if you buy a lottery ticket, you have a very, very small percentage of, of actually winning. But if you don't buy the ticket, you have zero, right? So, so in a sense, you need to be extremely optimistic. The odds are against you, but, but you need to be fueled by this optimism. And, and, and actually, the funny thing is that throughout my career, and, you know, when I told the, the idea of fiber to, to many people, I, I never, no one has said, oh, this is a brilliant idea. Everybody told me that this was either crazy or just stupid idea, which, which just fueled me more, um, to be able to prove the things that I sense and, and, and, and go through the craftsmanship that it takes to actually turn that idea into something that would start meeting customers and then from, from that point on evolve. How did, how did you, because I'm, I'm going back to when, when fiber wasn't, was, like, barely like a thought in your mind, there wasn't like a benchmark or a comparable at that time. I don't, I don't think really anything significant. So, and you had, you had tried to build things in the past before, before, before fiber as well. So how did this concept, how do you, I get the, I get the, what, what did you call the irrational optimism, a little bit of delusion. Yes, yes to all of that. But how do you have that much faith in this concept in, in like the five dollar gig or the five dollar job? What was the data point in the universe that you pulled from? I, I think that difference. I mean, at least two things. One was fiber is my worth company. And so I've, I've done my, in English, my, my share of mistakes, um, which I think all of them were just tuition. We're just preparing me to do things based on all the learnings that I've had from previous company. So I felt more ready, more focused. I, I knew what I was doing much better. But I also created a framework of how to, how to think about ideas, how to, um, come up with ideas that I felt were worth my, my time. I was at, at the time I was 38. I felt that, you know, my next thing should be meaningful. Meaningful doesn't just amount to money. It's not just saying, oh, I, it should be a company that generates north of a hundred million dollars. Uh, which, by the way, I thought about this number. And, you know, years afterwards, you had made, made me laugh. But, uh, speaking about optimism, I was, I wasn't optimistic enough when I was thinking about this. But, but in any case, it's not just about money. It's about, it's about the footprint. It's about, um, what do you want to put your time in? And, you know, I, I tell this to, to people that join Fiverr, I share some of my experiences as being an entrepreneur. And I'm, what I'm telling them is the odds of building a meaningful business, the successful business, are very small, uh, they're against you. But the odds of building a successful business, that is actually doing good to humanity. It is creating opportunities for people, for millions of people around the world, that is making the world a little bit smaller, that is giving opportunities for people, people from rural areas. Um, not just developing countries, but for guys from Boise, Idaho, um, and, and, and bring them customers from Tokyo or, or Sydney or, or New York or wherever. So I think the opportunity of doing something meaningful was, was, was, was incredible. And it was, for me, it was highly motivating. But, but I think that having a framework of how to think about the ideas that might scale again, the odds are against you. But my scale, um, was, was something very important for me. And I'm, I'm happy to go through, I'm, I'm, I'm very much a personal framework. But I, yeah, I think that that would be, I know, I was going to say, I'd love to learn that framework. I think that'd be very interesting just to understand like how you think, because again, you did have businesses before this. So this framework, something that's been built, not just off the back of Fiverr, but your entire life and career up to the point when you started to build this. True. I mean, this was, let's, let's go back in time. This was 2009. So slightly different times from now. Um, and, and this framework was, was a truly simplistic, which is the beauty of strong frameworks. They're, they're always super simple. And when, when, when you will hear the framework, you're going to realize that it applies for so many of the businesses that succeeded in, in the, in the beginning of, of the 2010, right? So, so the framework was, was, was, was pretty simple. The idea was, I, I wanted to look for a market that is already established and has a potential of, of continuing to grow. So meaning, I don't, I don't want to necessarily invent a category that I need to pay the price of educating a market and, and, and proving that it actually exists, but actually looking into an existing market, where there's tremendous amount of inefficiency and friction that you can potentially solve with software. That was pretty much it. Now, when you say it's, it's super simple. And you might think, okay, great. So, I mean, you, you can think about the million things. Go ahead, think about them. If you, if you go back, um, and, and you think about these years, think about, um, the fact that, um, Uber, as used the same firmwork, without even maybe knowing, for transportation, right? Uh, axes existed, right, sharing to some extent, the needs to go from point A to point B existed, but there's, there was so much friction of calling a dispatcher, looking for a taxi, and then not knowing what, when it's going to get to you, and then, uh, not knowing the, you know, which, which, you know, route it's going to take, and how much it's going to cost. And then having to use your wallet to, to pay for it, so much of it, with just smart software, you could remove all of this in law and beyond. You made the right sharing so much larger. Think about the same idea, um, you know, think about Airbnb, think about what they've done for hospitality. Um, you know, um, again, the opportunity existed, the market existed, everything was there, but there was so much friction. It was so hard to find, to pay all of it. Smart software, you can do it. So, so in, and, and by the way, if you apply the same principles, you see the same principles applied to, um, FinTech, in short tech, you know, I mean, these were banking, these were existing businesses, with tremendous amount of friction, that would, with the right smart software, you can actually eliminate. And if you can do it, you, you could actually take the market, which, which to me was, was this, the magic of having this very simplistic framework. So when I was looking at, at different markets, one of them was with labor. One of them was, was this idea of, of, you know, the matching between the, you know, talent and, and those who need access to that talent. And, and I, I saw exactly this. I saw the, I saw how hard it was to find talented people and, and, and communicate with them and, and, and, and agree on pricing and, and just figuring out, um, you know, a system of understanding how good they were to what they were saying that they're doing. Um, nothing was standardized. Everything was, so, so the, the, it was like, it was almost as, as bad as dating, right? It's like, you know, it was, it was really, really, which is, which is what tender and hinge and bumble and they all did the same thing. Yeah. So, so this is the beauty of, of this framework. You know, you can, you can literally apply it to any, and, and what's interesting, if you think about this, in many ways, the same framework applied to e-commerce. So in eBay and Amazon started, um, the infrastructure for commerce was there, but it was, it had friction. You had to get into your car and drive to the shopping mall that took time and find the shopping cart and pay for parking and whatever. And they didn't have anything, everything on, on their inventory and, and the list goes on and, and the opening hours were limited and whatever. So you think about this and you say, okay, wow, this, this is, it's an incredible opportunity to apply software where, you know, and this is how they started. I mean, Amazon took it so much further than not. I was actually going to ask just on that thought. It's very interesting because eBay and Amazon applied your framework, but Amazon won. And I'm curious why Amazon won applying your framework when eBay did win, but then they got disrupted to a degree. So why would they? Yes. Yeah, I think I have a, I have an answer for that. And I think that, um, the two companies have had very, very different approaches to it. So one took a very, um, like a very pure, um, two-sided market base approach, where it started from this community idea. eBay, more than anything else, was a community, and when they stopped being a community, this is where they started declining. This is my take, now I've been, I've been studying market bases for 15 years because I'm, I'm building one, and it's an incredibly complex machine. And eBay was, was, was an inspiration at the time, because they were doing something very similar to what we were doing. Amazon for many, many years the merchant of record. So what they understood was that in order to make e-commerce habitual, you had to solve logistical problems. And it's very, very tough to do it when you don't own any of the sides of the market, like eBay, right? You, it's very hard to impose all filament standards when your supply side are just random individuals. In Amazon's case, they were either the merchant of record to begin with. And when they started opening up to merchants to third party merchants, what they realized that the only way to actually enforce very high standards or fulfillment, which we now know under the name of prime, then they need to go through the prime system, which means that they need to ship their inventory to Amazon warehouses from which Amazon can do the fulfillment, which ensures that the fulfillment is going to be top notch. So, so essentially what they realized that in that space, in order to remove probably the most the largest friction point, they had to control fulfillment and make it as short as it is. And by the way, it's not that different than than what Netflix has done many, many years ago to blowpaster. You know, when you think about it, because when Amazon came, and I know it sounds really weird, young people these days, but when e-commerce started, you had to persuade people to shop online. People didn't want to. I know it's strange, but people really resisted it. And when you think about it, and this is why I mentioned blockbuster in Netflix, because you had, when you go to the shopping mall, you don't think about the time that you waste and the, you know, the, the, you know, the car gas and whatever. You think about the instant gratification. You think about, oh, intermediates are like holding into a scene. I'll patch it. I'll smell it. I'll wear it. Whatever. And so what you do is, by definition, you come, you come out with a product with an offering that is inferior. You say, oh, instead of going to blockbusters, spending 20 minutes getting your movie, you're going to order it by mail, get it in two days. That's two days versus 20 minutes. In the way Netflix has solved it is, they went, they used this idea, this handicap is an advantage by saying, you know what, there's no late fee. And by the way, you can take three movies and you can keep them as long as you want and whatever. And so if you have multiple movies at home, your waiting time is zero. It's not even 20 minutes, because you have your next movie. Oh, it's amazing. And so, and there's, and these are the things that people hated about blockbusters, the late fees and all of this. Amazon has done very similar to what they said is, you know, we're going to make it super convenient. It's going to be super fast. And it's free, free shipping. And it's 48 hours at the beginning. And now it's 24 hours. It's free replacement. And it's whatever. And no questions asked. And there's infinite inventory. And it's going to be the cheapest. And it's okay. Great. Done. Done deal. And you, and you persuade people to cross the line and you make that into an habitual service. You can only do that in e-commerce if you control fulfillment in Amazon, more than anything else is a fulfillment company. And they've mastered it. Like it's, I still cannot believe that they can do what they're doing. It's, it's, it's incredible. A big shout out to HubSpot and the HubSpot podcast network for sponsoring success story. If you enjoy success story, you're going to enjoy a ton of podcasts brought to you by the HubSpot podcast network, including hustle and flowchart hosted by Joey Fier. The hustle and flowchart podcast with Joey is all about how to build a business. So it gives you the freedom and fuel for your life. You're going to join Joey as you discuss his systems, mindset tweaks, reframes and strategies for entrepreneurs and really anyone to enjoy the process of being in business and having fun. This isn't for entrepreneurs looking to build a billion dollar business. It's for somebody who wants to build the lifestyle, somebody who is looking to build systems that work. Listen to hustle and flowchart wherever you get your podcasts. No, and, and so technically, you know, when you look at what five is done and I guess five, do you consider five or a first mover? Yes, yes, because I'll tell you the question that I have first, then let me know. So the question is really as somebody who's, I would have thought five or the first mover, but I'm not in the space and I don't know the history obviously as well as you. But the question really is, how do you build a company that is that is undistruptible? And I mean, you're going to say it's impossible to make it undistruptible. But you as a founder, CEO, you built a massive company. How do you not become an eBay? I know you're not going to become a blockbuster because again, blockbuster was like an analog to a digital solution. But then eBay was disrupted by Amazon because they took a different perspective. So as a founder, what do you do to future proof? Yeah. No, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a great question. And um, there's no easy answer to it. Uh, with this idea of reinventing yourself, you know, some of the things that we're doing, as we're thinking about this, you know, when, when you start a company, you do the, I mean, everybody probably your listeners of, of red, um, you know, crossing the cousin, you know, these, I did this idea of going through a J curve where in, in the bottom, you know, end of the J's, what's, what's being fueled by VCs and, or investors, private investors. And then at some point, hopefully you grow in companies, what happens is, as, as years go by, you need to, if you don't disrupt, disrupt your own model, someone else will. And so you, you need to keep this, um, you know, um, very fresh approach where you challenge everything you do. Um, and, and you keep questioning your strategy. And you keep thinking about the next ways of innovation because nothing, nothing is static. Everything moves. There's ways of transformation. Some of them are cultural. Some of them have to do with generations. And in our case, 2010 millennials got into the workforce. Then Gen Zers, it's, it's changing the fabric of the, of the workforce. Um, technology have changed. The, the App Store has become super popular in that created this massive opportunity cloud computing. Um, then now recently you have AI. So, so there's, there's multiple things that change constantly. You need to continue challenging yourself. And, and one of the things that are really hard is an existing company that you need to do additional Jacobs, but now you are the VC. And every bone in your body, every, you know, every aspect, every person around you tells you, don't do it because, because it's going to come at the expense of your profitability, at the expense of your growth, at the expense of being able to laser focus on just one thing. But you need to do it. You need to reinvent yourself. You need to do the next wave of transformation. Because if you, if you failed to do it, you end up like many companies that we know, like Lockberry and Hold back and whatever. I mean, the, unfortunately, the corporate, you know, uh, uh, you know, uh, Trashbien is full of incredible extensive and big names that you know, blockbuster was a six billion dollar revenue a year company. This is that you can't stop the company that size. Remember, yeah, well, it's greatest times. I mean, these, it seemed to be impossible to destroy. But there's very few companies that are actually able to survive. And when you think about it on a, on a, on a personal level, there's very few management, founders, managers that are able to go through this entire thing. I have, you know, as a, as a, as a founder CEO, I have a, like, I have a ritual, a yearly ritual where I, I take a couple of days to actually do an introspect and ask myself, am I the right person to continue leading this company next year? And I think that this is like, and we do the same for the way we're structured and organized. And we keep challenging this because if you don't, then you, you, you, you become, you become complacent. And, and this is where, this is where companies start falling. And I, you know, and I, you know, if you, if you, if you listen to the Netflix story called by Netflix, you know, that blockbuster was really, really close to being able to beat Netflix at its own game because they had the advantage of doing physical distribution and doing online or via mail distribution. And then the move to digital was, was not such a big deal, right? But, but because of management changes, they, they lost it. Then they lost an acquisition opportunity to with, uh, correct for it. I don't remember what was 15 or 50 million. I was like, I mean, it was, it was, it was, it was crazy. But, but again, the corporate history is full of these stories. And it's, it's, it's tough not to become one of them. You know, it, you need to be very aware that you can be, you can, I mean, if, if you become complacent, if you, if you don't disrupt your own business, someone else will, because you just proven that it's a great business, which makes you, you know, which may target, yeah, when you look back at, like I, I want people because people know what five are is. We can talk about, we can talk about the future of work all day, but I think it's also important to understand sort of what you've experienced in your journey and your come up. Um, if you look back, because you, you, this is not your first rodeo that you've done other companies, uh, talked to me about even before Fiverr, biggest failure or biggest lesson that you've, you've experienced over your career, like a shit hitting the fan moment that at the time felt like, you know, this is not going so well. Yeah. Oh, man, I don't, I wouldn't know where to start. They're, I mean, they're, they're, there's, uh, yeah, I've, I've, I've done my share of podcasts. I should have had a pre-preready answer for this. Um, but the reality is that there's, it's just the, what happens between companies as you evolve as a, as a entrepreneur is that just your misrate is getting a little bit lower, meaning, um, if, if to begin with, then you're on experience 80% of what you do is wrong. Then by the time you're an excellent entrepreneur, you're probably doing 70%. You know, error. You're not gonna, I mean, I think, I think what's changing in many ways is just, it's just, um, the size of the cycle of recovering from a, from a failure or, or a mistake. And, you know, having, having a system to quickly learn, overcome, not dwell on it and just move on and just, and just, um, take anything you've done wrong is a great lesson and promise yourself that you're not gonna make it again because if you do, you're just stupid. Um, and, and by the way, this is something that I've, that I've applied to the company as well. Like, there's, it's the same principle. I mean, it's okay to make mistakes, mistakes, as long as you make them in good faith, not, not by negligence. As long as it's not the same mistake again. Like if you do it, you probably shouldn't be here, um, because you don't care enough. But if you made a mistake, even sometimes it's causing mistakes, but you've done it with, with passion and, like, not, not out of negligence. And, and you were, you're on top of it and you, you found it and you fixed it. That's a great lesson. If you can spread it, if you can share it with the rest of the team. So I've done mistakes in, in how I picked co-founders. I've done mistakes in, um, in hiring people or not being very good at hiring people. I've done mistakes in, in running boards, um, and investors. Um, there's, uh, I, I, I wasn't aggressive enough. I, I, I didn't realize that I was, that I was not good enough at doing marketing or sales myself and not bringing the right people, uh, fast enough. There, there's, I mean, there's such, I mean, in, in your, when, when you grow up as an entrepreneur, there's so many mistakes that you do. It's just, I, it's very hard to pick one. But, but there, and if, if you think about shit shows, in, in, I mean, Fiverr started as shit show, well, when you think about it, and, and funny enough, it was, it was not because it was, it was not going well. It was because it was going extremely well. So when, so, so sometimes, sometimes you, you succeed and it, it feels like it's the end of it. Um, because, because, when you succeed too fast, so many things start falling apart. Um, and again, I'm happy, happy to talk into anecdotal, you know, stories. You know, most of what we do, we're, we're a very iterative company, we're, we're religiously testing stuff. So by definition, most of the things that you test will fail, like you, you, you fail the mentality of failure of like getting comfortable failing is something that you, you have to, to be super rooted in your, in your company's DNA. Where do you think, where do you think for you? I guess I, I always try and understand why some entrepreneurs, well, any entrepreneur successful has this like mental, this, this, these mental calluses that allow them to get through these periods of, of tough times and, and failures, and, and take the lesson and move on. Is it something that you were brought up with? Is it something that you learned from your parents, they're just from doing it so much? Because I think I've had so many conversations with entrepreneurs and there's a guy that runs a publicly traded holding company and it was very interesting. He's like, listen, Scott, like every single day, something that happens to me, a lawsuit, an employee, a death threat, like whatever it is, like any, every single day, whatever happens to me is something that would just completely, like completely fuck up a young entrepreneur and scare them from ever doing this again. And I guess I just wonder what this strategy is when you're first building and then you get your first lawsuit, for example, like how do you go into that and not let it destroy you? I don't know if there's a, if there's an exact system for it, then I am sure that there is something that has to do with your personality or, you know, your risk profile. Yeah, you know, and, and you're willing to, you're willing to take risk and they're, you're willing to face the consequences sometimes, which, which comes with it. In my case, I think, probably some of it is how I was raised up into my background. It's, you know, what I've done in my life prior to becoming an entrepreneur. Some of it was the fact that I knew that on, on a very personal level, I had a safety net because I had a very supportive wife as an example and very supportive parents, like people that I can lean on if like they're going to catch me and they're not, I mean, if things like having a supportive spouse is, is, is, I think, in many times overlooked, um, because this is your environment, you're good at full apart. You're going to, you're going to have a really, really bad day. Um, things are going to be sometimes you get devastating news. It's like, and if, if you don't have a supportive environment, um, then it's even tougher because it creates, it's, it just, it holds the, you know, well, you can't get out of your own head. I, I experience the exact same, like every time something bad happens, like she's the first one to tell me, Scott, it's like, chill, it's not that bad. It's not the end of the world, but you get in your own head about a lot of this shit and you need somebody to pull you out. True. And it's not just, it's not the end of the world. It's just knowing that she's okay, that she's not freaking out that a bit. She's not going to say, oh, dude, like you need to, like, you need to get out of it out of there. So, so having a support system, I think, it's really important, but, but, um, it also comes with experience, meaning you, you, you, you understand over time that skies are not falling. The things that you thought were devastating are probably small blips. Um, they're small dots on a, on a very long timeline. Um, and in most cases, um, the mistakes that you do or the bad things that happen to you are not irreversible and are usually not terminal. So if you, if you know this and if you take that approach and you say, okay, okay, great. I, it's, it's, it's about bump. Um, but, but we need to, we need to go through this and recover. Um, then it's, it's, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy because I mean, you, you, you make reality. And by the way, when, when you do it in a team, the team follows because when, you know, it's, it's a little thing. So it's even, you know, when, when the company was super small, um, I started being very self-fulweir to my facial expressions when I was coming to the office in the morning. If you look very worried, then this is going to be a bad day for the team. Period. Because they look, I mean, they look at you. They're trying to read into like, why is it pissed? Like, what's going on? Do we get another no from an investor to like, um, does he, does he know something we don't, which is really bad news? Um, and if you smile, I mean, the day is just like everything goes. And so you, so, so leading by example, but it's also an example of how you take bad news. How do you take the small disasters? How do you cope with them? And when, when, when you're composed, when, when, when you're chill about it, then the rest of the team understands that this is not, I mean, we're nothing will destroy us. We're like, and it, it, it creates this, you know, this group strength, um, in, in many ways. I think a lot of people, they aren't aware of how their personality, their disposition affects the people around them. And that could be like a huge thing for the performance of the team too. Like, if you're like slamming your doors and, and you're hopping and puffing around the office, like, that's going to throw people off. Yeah. Yeah. So try, try not to do it. Try not to do that. Not try to find out about, um, yeah. I was, again, sometimes, sometimes people lose it. And yeah, it's just, it's just human. And that's also fine. Because seeing you as a human and not like a, like this over a car line, this business robot. Yeah. Exactly. I think it's, it's also good. Um, but, but to an extent, I mean, yeah, there, there's a limit. I mean, you, you, you can't become too vulnerable with the team. It's like, there's things that you, you shouldn't do. How do you, how do you, I mean, I'm actually curious about, because you mentioned before, this is just one point that I thought would be interesting, because you've spoken about it on other podcasts. And you've mentioned your wife's battle, uh, with cancer. And how this, like impacted your world view. And I'm curious about how that impacted your world view and how that shaped you as an entrepreneur. But also, that's a highly personal thing. Do you feel like things like that that you're going through as a leader? Do you talk about that with your team in the moment? So they understand all the different things that are going on in your life? Or do you try and shield them from that? So a little bit of a two-part question, because I am, I am very curious about, in fact, the due of course, but it does play into the second part when something that's about as traumatic of a life event. As most people, hopefully, they don't even have to deal with, but we'll deal with a death or cancer or something like that. Yeah. So, uh, yeah. So at the time, I was, I was, I was 29 and so, so was my wife. And we had our first son. He was about three years old. I was still practicing law at the time, um, which is something I didn't enjoy doing. Like, I was pretty frustrated. I, I was decently good at doing it. And I was making a lot of money, but I didn't enjoy it. And I knew that I wanted to make, to transform my, my career into a different, uh, direction. And my dad was, it was, it was a, it was a very senior, um, executive, the semiconductor company. And so he was, I think having this entrepreneurial spirit was, was a tone. And I knew that I wanted to go into business, but this was, this was dragging along. And this was, it's, it's kind of a golden cage. And you make a lot of money and you're young. And it's, it's hard to get out of that cycle. And so my wife was diagnosed with, with cancer. And this was, um, what, what's really, I mean, I can, I can, I can actually, um, remember the, the, the moments where, um, you know, we were very happy people. And we, you know, we're together from the age of 14. So we, at that, I love that. That's amazing. So, so she's my best friend. Um, we've been together forever since we were teenagers. And, and this happened in all of us. I mean, it's, I mean, you can wake up the happiest person in the world and go to sleep in the gutters. Like, you know, your entire world collapses on you. And she, she had a very rare and complex type of cancer with, with about 10% of survival. She didn't know that, but I did. Um, and so this was, this was a super tough period of time. I left work. I spent six months, you know, raising our son and taking care of her. And, but as, as she survived through it against all odds, the, the way this impacted me was, uh, this idea of life's fragility. This, this moment where you like, there is this, um, heavy realization that drops on you that, uh, even, even if you think you're 29, nothing can touch you. Nothing but can happen. All of a sudden, your life might end or the, the way you, you think about it and the plans that you've made for the future and all of it. So this made me get into this carpet, the M, you know, seize the, seize the day, mode, like turbo mode on it. Like, I went ballistics. For me, there was zero procrastination. I wanted everything now. I didn't postpone anything. I left my work as a, as a lawyer. I started my first company. It was, it was all about not postponing anything I wanted to do because, because there was this, um, sense of urgency of like, no, your future is not for, it's not a sure thing. Yeah. You need to do whatever you want to do, whatever your passion about do it now. So this got me into this mentality of, of like, going into it and, and not, and not optimizing for the risk, not, or worrying about the downside, but also only optimizing about the upside, only thinking about, and this is where, I mean, a lot of this idea of optimism and, and, and, and, and, and daring and taking risks and, and, and having a sense of urgency of, oh, really doing things and, and going to your second part of the question. So over the years, um, I've, I've done a number of companies throughout throughout that period, including Fiverr. Um, she had cancer quite more. And she was also diagnosed with MS, um, which is like, dude, this is like, it's, and I don't know how she handles it. It's just, she, it's incredible. But, um, but, but some of that happened throughout Fiverr. Enter a question. Um, I, I did try to shield the team from it. And the reason is, first, there's only a certain degree of vulnerability that you can have with your team because you are a dear leader and they need, they need someone with a steady hand. And as much as they would love you and trust you and have confidence, if they feel that you're, whether it's your fault or not, in a very weak spot, they, they might become less confident, right? And, and this will impact their performance. The second part of it is when you tell people this in, in some ways, um, you're, you're being open with them and you share personal stuff with them. On the other hand, I, I also felt that you, you give them some of the burden because now they know it. They, they cannot un-know this. And so it, this becomes something that, that hangs there in, in the room when you're, when you were thinking about stuff. And, and I didn't want to put them in that situation, right? Because, and it's, again, it's not, I am a private person and, and I'll, like, um, obviously, I wouldn't even tell the story if, if my wife wasn't okay with it, but, of course, yeah, yeah. But it's like, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and this is fine, but, but I think that this is, I mean, from a burdens standpoint, I, I wanted to shield the team from most of it. I mean, there's no real playbook for, for leadership when stuff like this happens. It's not like you can go watch, uh, uh, well, I guess it's watching, hopefully, this YouTube video or this podcast, but I mean, a lot of people don't know how to manage this stuff. This is the stuff that you don't expect. God forbid. Thank God you don't have to expect this, and it doesn't happen. But I mean, when you are the leader, you are the manager, just, it's not just the risk. It's the responsibility of, of, of everyone else's livelihood. It's, it's a very stressful position to be in. And I mean, like, that's why I don't even know if entrepreneurship is foremost people, because they never, they never tell you this when you're starting the company, what happens if somebody dies in the family. I mean, if you're responsible for everybody, it doesn't matter if you're solo printer, you're running a hundred million dollar company, you're running a public trade company. Like, you can't let that, you can't, you can't react to that a way a normal human wants to react to that, which is take time off and not do anything but care about the loved one, which is that makes sense. That's normal. But if you're running a public trade company and you're CEO of that, you, you can't just stop. It doesn't, it doesn't stop tomorrow for the next two, three, four weeks, five weeks, six months, whatever. So it's difficult, very difficult. It, it is and there, there isn't any, you know, a perfect playbook for it. I, I will say that there's, there's a saying that you've heard a million times and I did the same, which is being CEO is, is a very lonely position. And it is true. And I think some of that you can mitigate by creating a trusted network of either like-minded or people that are in the same situation with, with, with whom you can, you can have a conversation and open conversation and maybe even be vulnerable. Like, yeah, because if they're the right people, they would, they would tell you that they've been through the same or similar situations and some of them were devastating. And again, they, they would take you through their stories. And I think that this is, this is the closest you, you, you can get to opening up. And I, I found throughout the years, if, like, if you pick mentors for yourself and these are people that become, you know, some of your trusted, this safe zone of, of exchanging ideas and thoughts and concerns and, and sometimes private stuff, then, then it, that could be helpful. Otherwise, you need to be, yeah, it's pretty lonely and you need to, with some of that, you need to open your right, not everyone should be an entrepreneur. And that's fine. And by the way, I, sometimes I can tell about people and sometimes they can tell about themselves. And sometimes you need to just get it out of the system, just try it, which is fine. Like I, I would encourage anyone who wants to, to actually do it. I, I, I love it. It's incredible. Um, and I encourage people to take themselves through through the test. I, I agree. And there has to be seasons too. You have to know what season you're into. You know, like one of the biggest hiring strategies that I have is find people that should be entrepreneurs, but for whatever reason right now, the risk profile is in a line. And it's not the right season for them to be an entrepreneur, but they'll make incredible employees. And there's nothing wrong with that. And maybe they want to be an entrepreneur in five years or maybe they've done it. And I know people, I know exited founders that have taken roles back in companies because they don't want the stress anymore. There's literally zero wrong with that. You don't have to always be a founder, always an employee, or once you're a founder, you can never go back. Who cares? I agree. And I don't in the same applies for the, for the type of company of company you build or the outcome. There, there, there's no place that says that you have to build billion dollar companies, building a smaller company that is, is creating great impact on your ten employees and are making all of them very wealthy and happy. Is it great business? Love it. So it comes in in different shapes. And there's nothing wrong about it. So I do, I do encourage people to try it. And when you think about this, when you think about companies like Fiber that have went through everything from like product market fit into growth into being becoming a public company into doing another, you know, further waves of innovation. This is like a factory for incredible entrepreneurs. I mean, we, we mentioned companies like Gamasal and Netflix. I mean, think about the think about the PayPal Mafia, right? Yeah, you know, the, the first one hundred one hundred and one hundred and fifty employees. I mean, that includes Peter Thiel and Elon Musk. And I mean, it's just, it's just incredible. And I think that these experiences, you know, prepare you for, I mean, these are the best schools you can have. It's, it is a hundred times better than doing an MBA. Oh, a thousand percent. Right. And I think that people with entrepreneurial spirit would, would be noticed. I mean, within companies, you, I mean, I know the people here that are entrepreneurial. And it's, it's, if you can keep them and create and create space for them to continue creating things inside the company, having their own organizations and, and following through an ideas, this is incredible. And if not, you know, give them the blessing of starting somebody, maybe invest money in them. Yeah. Because you have the first, you know, you have, you have the best due diligence and vetting process. Anybody could ever hope for it. You've already worked with them for two, three years or whatever, right? How did your life, how did your life change? How did five or change when you went public? I find that fascinating. And there's not a lot of people that I speak to that go through that process. Not a lot. It's very interesting that you stayed on as CEO for the whole life of the business. Because I think a lot of people, at some point, will go through that exercise that you went through, or they're, or they're bored, will make them go through the exercise that you go through to see if you're the right CEO. And then at some point, between zero dollars and IPO, there's going to be some sort of founder, CEO injected, that's a professional CEO, but you went through the whole thing. So how was that? It is, it is a super, super interesting process. It's highly educating. It makes your companies so much better as a machine. Yeah. No, the way you think about how you operate, how you budget, how you plan, how you project things, how you do you think about growth, how you think about stability, how you think about talent, all of this. It forces you to do very different things than you were doing as a private company. And as we were thinking about, or deciding that this is the afternoon that we want to take, becoming a public company, I decided, first, what I've done is I replaced about half of my management team. And these were people I, I absolutely loved, but I, I felt that they were incredible at getting us to that point. But we're not necessarily the right people for the next phase, next phase, you know, the next 5-10 years of growth. And, and this was very important, but this was, this was a tough, a tough transition. Again, it's, it's, it's saying goodbye to people that you really love and appreciate and they, they've given their life to the company. It's tough. It's not, it's not an easy thing to do. And then it was what I decided is I wanted to start exercising what it meant to be a public company as a private company, which meant that we started having our own fake earnings or, you know, having, having to do the projections, order by order and do the yearly thing. And so, putting the, the right systems into place, but, but having like two years to do it. So this was, and then I spent so much time with companies, I've, when, that I've gone public the, the, the two years before. So, companies that, that, that had fresh memory of the process. And they, through these companies, I, I took a lot of the, you know, the heavy lifting of learning the process that this was, this was just, this became really easier. And then it was starting to do non-deal road of just getting, because we were at the time that there weren't public companies in our space, it was educating the market about what it is. It wasn't like, oh, we're the 100, you know, companies company that is doing SOS, you know, model. It was the first time. So nobody really got what we were doing. And this was, so we were a strange creature in, in this space. It was important for me to start meeting with investors a, well ahead of time. So once we do the actual road show before the IPO, this is like the third, fourth time they've seen me. Okay. So they can, they can also understand that because they've seen me three, four times, three, four times, the consistency of our execution is there because they, they can, they can actually look at their notes. So this was one. And then, and then it's just, you know, it's the, it's preparing the team for the roller coaster of being a public company, which is not a small feat, but you need to, need to spend time doing it. And, and explaining to them what's going to happen. And explain to them what actually matters in this game. And explain to them that it's a long game. It's not the short game in the short game. It might be a, like getting into a washing machine. It's going to be terrible, but, but you can't be super myopic on a certain week or month or quarter or even a year. And, and then it's getting to into the routine of being a public company. Uh, you know, doing the earnings, doing the, the road show, you ever stressed about stepping into that position as CEO of a publicly traded company? Because does your job change at that point? Well, it does. It does. And in the actual IPO process itself sucks you in. I mean, it's, you need to have a very strong, a very strong, uh, backbone or, uh, like, like an infrastructure internally to be able to zoom out and deal with this. And I think, you know, this is one of the things that I told my management. I said, the only way we can do it is if as management, we're making sure that at the beginning, I spend most of my time in the future and nothing deprevent. And over time, you do the same, right? If we're obsessive about the current quarter or we're doomed, it's going to be, it's going to be misery because some quarters are going to be incredible. Some quarters are not going to go as well. We don't control everything. We do our best, but, you know, there's geopolitical stuff. There's macro stuff. There's stock market, doesn't behave, whatever there's elections. There's, um, it's not everything is going to go as planned. If you're obsessive about the quarter yourself, it means that you're not spending enough time thinking about the future. So I created the system to, to really allow myself to do it. Now, when you tell things in hindsight, you know, about about the history of you, Donna, you sound like a hero. But, but, I mean, I've done my share of mistakes doing this as well. One of them, which is very typical, and I've heard Brian Chasky talk about this and, you know, I've heard CEOs, it's like, when, when you start as a small company, every company is very top down, right? It's, it's under as they dictate, you know, the, they, they create this, uh, this, directive of like, we're, we're what we should do. And sometimes it goes really granular. And over time, it becomes more general. And you expect people to, to chime in. What happens is the company grows is sometimes it by mistake, not, not by design, it becomes, uh, it, it becomes like a hyper democracy where it's mostly bottom, bottom up because, because your head is like, you're, you're doing important things. And, and, and, and you're running, you're running the, the company, um, on the outside, not on the inside, and all of this. And this creates, in this, pushes the company to do what, when, when you do mostly, uh, bottom up, you do mostly incremental, because people are obsessed about the, yes, yeah. They're, you know, very narrow, uh, uh, uh, point of focus. And so what they do is they constantly do small changes and, and you, you become an incremental company. So instead of doing, like, step functions and, and doing moonsholt, doing, like, brave stuff, you do, you do, you keep one stunty, obsess about. So it's really, like, it's your job as a founder to make sure that you keep that big future vision, because if not, then you're just going to be like, like, like, like moving, like, nothing, like centimeters at a time when you really have to be just as innovative post IPO, as you were pre IPO, sometimes more, sometimes more, and you, in many cases, you need to be, you, you need to openly speak about it, because like, this is how you communicate with the market, and this is how they, they get what you're doing. Sometimes, sometimes you can't tell what you're doing because of competitive reasons or whatever. But, but you need to be pretty vocal about it. And it's, so doing this, there's this moment in time where you actually realize that, that this is wrong. And you need to, you need to, you need to be, you need to get back, get more involved. But I think that these are very natural things that happen to most CEOs that go through this process. And I, I had the lack of having a very, very strong management team that was not dropping the ball. So, so in that, in that sense, sure, it changes your day to day, but over time, if you manage to stay focused on strategy and on the next, you know, three years, not the next order, then having the ritual of doing the quarterly earnings and all of this is not a big deal. It's not a big deal. Well, it's just you, you, it gets into the rhythm. And it's just the way you operate. And you have a, you have a team that does it. And so, and when you're very, when you're in the details of your story, then it's very easy to tell that story. It's not, you don't need to come, I'm not, not spending, maybe I shouldn't say it, but I'm saying it anyway. I'm not spending a ton of time getting prepared for those earnings. It's not like, I'm not doing, you know, because you're, you're being an entrepreneur, and you've never stopped being an entrepreneur. And I think that that's the most important. Like, when I'll stop, I'll quit. Like, this is, I mean, because, because it's not going to be for the benefit of a company A in two is because it's boring. Like, I'm not going to, you know, I don't have to do it. I don't have to do what I'm doing right now. I can start five more companies or not. Yeah, it's not a money thing. It's not a money thing anymore. Fun. It's a passion thing. Yeah. Passion and it's, it's also, there's, I'm facing challenges right now that I haven't faced before. And it's interesting. Like, I want to be able to succeed going through these challenges. It's not obvious. It's not, if I thought I didn't have a chance, I would bring someone to replace me for sure. But, but I also think, I mean, I know that some, some CEOs don't go through the process of either going through the IPO or just after the IPO, they're getting moved. I haven't seen that as being super successful in many companies. In some companies, it does work. But I think that there's having a founder CEO throughout many years with a very long vision, not optimizing for like a big exit, but just wanting to see this business thrive 30 years from now is a huge plus for investors. And I'm also an investor. So I, so as a VC myself, I would, I would always opt to invest in, in, in founder CEOs, then, then having hired CEOs. I think that's so smart. I think that's also the reason why, like, even at a, at a micro level, when companies do acquisitions and they kill the innovation, because they do the acquisition incorrectly, and they try and bring that company that they've acquired into into the fold. And then all of a sudden, the company has like an autoimmune response to this new acquired asset as opposed to what Google does and I'm sure what meta does they do the acquire. And then they move them to the sort of the outskirts of the company, and they leave them alone, and they let them do their thing. And they sometimes don't even want to physically have them in the same office as the, as the employees because they want that team to stay forward looking and innovative. So it's always about keeping that innovation alive. And it's almost like these two conflicting ideas where you have this like corporate structure, just stifles innovation and creativity. But how do you keep that going? So you've kind of done it your own way with the Piver. And I think that's probably why you're still going to be very successful because you never kill that innovation. And if somebody replaced you, I think it would be next to impossible to have that same creativity and vision and future outlook, because it's just, it's like that Paul Graham founder mode, right? It's just a different kind of person. It's a different kind of person. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think, yeah, it's, it's, it reminds me of the story of the replacement Steve Jobs said, yeah, first, you know, the, the, the first part of the Apple story. And Steve Jobs has said, I was replaced by a person that thing that thinks that just having good ideas is enough and not understanding the photo through that, that you need to put into every idea. And I think that this is where founders have some benefit, Russian understanding what it takes. Just, you know, we were talking about this craftsmanship that comes out with turning an idea into into something where you have a benefit, but, but also seen, you know, non-founder CEOs come in and just, you know, do incredible things. And to your earlier point, it's all about, it's all about timing. Sometimes, you know, that timing is right. Sometimes you would just bring the right person in. So I don't know if no one else could do my job. I'm sure they're hard. There are probably some people true, but, but you'd have to look, you'd have to look hard. That's all I'm saying. I'm here for now. So we've gone through a lot. I guess last thing, because we didn't really touch on this at all, which is actually I'm very happy that we didn't even go into this because I feel like this is what you always speak about. But the last, just like a thought, you're looking 30 years out, you're looking to the future of where five is going to be in its place in the gig economy and the future of work. Maybe just a couple thoughts because you study this all day. Where is the future of work going? You know, I, you know, to it earlier, I said, you know, we started the company. It was, you know, they say that timing is everything. So in our case, timing was 2010. It was at the wake of the recession of Lloyd. There was a lot of people waking up from this illusion of safe work because they've seen their parents losing their safe works during the recession. And young generation came into the workforce. They, they were thinking differently about work. They, they had, they had more access to information. They had more access to opportunities. And this started changing the fabric of what, what work actually means. You know, when we start the company, freelancing was something people used to do in between jobs. It wasn't a career. So, and this has changed. And not only became a, like a very legit career, it became also a lifestyle, you know, it comes, it comes with, with, with its negative side effects. And obviously, it's not perfect. But it gives you the type of freedom that these younger generations were looking for. They, they sometimes call it balance or freedom or, you know, being their own both. Or pursuing their passions. And I think that this, this has created a massive change. No, but by US statistics, by 2030, half, 50 percent of the workforce are going to be engaging in freelancing in some capacity, which is incredible. It doesn't mean that they're going to be full time freelancing or being free agents. But they're going to engage you with it, which means that a lot of these people are not going to be out there for full time hire anyway. So, I think that the, the constructs of work are changing. When you think about what is it, what, what is full time? When you look at high tech, the average 10, 10 year on high tech is 1.8 years. This is like short lease. What about it is full time. And your employees are doing 20 percent of their time doing whatever they want to do or working on their side project or which is fine. So, and then came the pandemic and changed things even further. And created this situation where you can have some of your team being remote. Maybe your or competence team needs to be in place or you need to spend time at the office because it's how you perform the best. But you can allow yourself to augment on it with flexible models. And so, this is already happening and it's going to happen with or without us. On top of that, you have AI coming. So, AI is changing how people work, how companies work, how the types of jobs that people are doing. It's, it's, you know, at the end of the day, these are just tools. And it's what matters is what people are going to do with these tools. But, but it is also changing the way people think about work and, and, you know, that the types of jobs that we can even imagine are going to be around in 10 years. We can't. I can't. I'm doing this for 15 years. I can't imagine the types of jobs are going to be here in three years. Nothing 10. It's very, you know, when, when we launched, we launched a category a few years ago called drone footage editors. Two years before that, that didn't exist. It did like no one could have imagined that the time would be a thing. And then there was, was crypto and NFT and whatever. Like, so, so the landscape is going to change. For me, the only constant is that human creativity, human talent is always will always be in demand. And those structures are going to change. And, you know, I sometimes I refer to the way I'm thinking about how businesses will work with talent. I compared it to the idea of cloud computing. I said, you know, what cloud computing has done is it's liberated computing power by by having much larger distribution. And so you as a small startup can can actually have access to the best computing power in the world. And you just pay per use. And that computing power is always up to date, managed, secured, upgraded, all of it. Think about the same principle in how you think about talent. You can have access to the best talent in the world in a click of a button. You don't need to train that talent. You don't need to maintain them. You don't need, you can work, or as long as you need it, you can scale it up. If you need more, you can scale it down if you need less. But that's the beauty of it. So I'm not really comparing human beings to computers. But the principles of having this, this democratized network, or platform where you can connect to talent. This is how I think, you know, we're going to see work in like 10 years from now. It's going to be, you know, I was at also lower the barrier to entry to build, to be an entrepreneur. Absolutely. Absolutely. And you know, when, you know, one of the important things as we're thinking, we were talking about the e-day versus Amazon idea and so forth. I think that there's, there's a massive, important component of, of, of a community that is ingrained in the fiber story. You know, when we, when we took the company public, we did that in the New York soccer change. So there's the famous balcony where you can have 13 people stand and ring the bell. And I decided that when we do the IPO, we as a team are not going to ring the bell. We're going to bring community members. We're going to bring sellers that have been with us for many years. And we're going to let them do the ceremony. Because this is their day as much as it's, I love that. Right. And so, you know, in this in contrast to the idea of cloud computing, these are human beings. And it's important in the human aspect behind this, this incredible passion to create and succeed and learn new stuff and, and provide excellent service and be there for those who need you and be a bridge between people and technology by, by helping them use it. This is so incredible. And this is so, so very much of what we, we are as a company. And when you think about the transition for a public company at the office here, we have, it's mostly open space. Nobody sits in rooms including myself. We have meeting rooms and whatever, but we've seen open spaces and we've asked our community to decorate the office. So to create art that we're going to hang across the office. And the reason why this was so important was that I told the team, I wanted to have a line of sight with something that was done by one of our community members, because this is a good reminder of who you work for. You don't work for B, you don't work for our shareholders, you work for our community. And if you do well by the community, our shareholders are going to be very hot, because it means that we're, we're succeeding. So I think that this is like having, holding this story throughout the years of the company is super important. I love that. I absolutely love that. Where, where should people, if they, I mean, five or five or people can go if they want to explore, if they want to participate, but where else would you want to send people? Do you want to send people to your own socials? Is there anything that you want to, you having any events or anything that people can go like, you know, learn more from you? Where do you want to send listeners? So, um, so we're having, or our community is having a ton of events. Because I'm sure that people that are listening to this sell services on Fiverr, I buy services on Fiverr, I mean, everybody's used it in some capacity. If you're even a little bit entrepreneurial, you've used it. So, so, um, so if, if you go on our website, you can find out of our events, a lot of our events are self-organized, which I love. Um, we started by doing events ourselves, but we realized that we can't be, we can be everywhere all the time. And so the community actually reached out to us and said, can we throw our own events where, you know, just like minded people gather and just talk about their, you know, their success and hard times. And we said, of course, we'll, we'll just give you the, you know, we'll give you the infrastructure to set up a venue or, and if you need help, we're there. Like, you don't have to have us in that discussion, but you could, so, so we have our professional forums. Like, I encourage people to get in touch. We have programs for new sellers that want to join the platform and succeed. We've created very, very advanced programs for those who want to get more involved in their success. Um, and obviously, that there's, we have our social media and we try to share a lot of these success stories. This is like, this is where we're, we're obsessed about this, like, people that have managed to either use Fiverr to grow their business and create incredible stories, or people that that have started, you know, selling on Fiverr and, and created multi-million dollar businesses. And sometimes, you know, started as individuals and became agencies. These are incredible stories. You can find them if you go on our social, if you go on our, on our site. Um, I would encourage people to, to try it and get, get involved in, in the conversation. I think it's really empowering. Um, you know, I, I draw a lot of, um, optimism from, from hearing people's stories of, of success, you know, it gives you, it's, it's, it's a reason to, to get out of bed every morning. I love that. Which is incredible. And, and obviously, anyone can, you know, you're happy to follow me on, on, on Twitter or, or anywhere else. Um, and I really appreciate the, the toll. No, I appreciate you. I mean, like, listen, like, this podcast has been built on Fiverr. So, like, uh, we have used it, I've used it for, not just this podcast for, for past businesses. So it's a very, I mean, what you built is amazing. So I, I, I thank you just personally. Thank you. Um, uh, last thing I always like to ask, because you had such an incredible life and career, and you've gone through so many different seasons. Um, when you look back, what would be one thing that you would tell your 20 year old self? If this was, you know, my, my 20 year old self, um, I would probably push myself to, to go into entrepreneurship, even, even Oscar. Um, but also take deeper breath as I was doing this. You know, when I, uh, when I decided to move on from my, I think it was my second company. Um, onward, I, I spent, I spent like a couple of weeks just writing, you know, just sitting down and writing all of my learnings into a notebook and all of the mistakes that I've done and promising myself, I'm not going to do it again. And, and at the end, I closed this notebook and I never opened it again because it's already stored as you do with this exercise. Um, I, what I would say, but this is like, it's easier said than done. I mean, you can, you can talk to a 20 year old, but it's like, it's like expecting people to learn from your mistakes. They rarely do it, right? People are wired in a way where they need to do the mistakes themselves to do it. So I, there's a million things I could, I could have done, could have said, but I'm not sure if my, my 20 year old self would, would actually listen or if this would, this is actually change anything to be honest. Um, but it was, it was maybe, you know, this idea of being able to recover faster from setbacks, mistakes, problems, even, even devastating, like closing company is recovering and, and, you know, getting back into the game. He's something that I've learned over the years to just, as I've said, shorten the cycles. Um, but I'll be honest, I'm not sure if my 20 year old would, would listen to it. I think that's the best advice ever. Like, sometimes you just have to go through it yourself and learn it yourself and you can give it a 20 year old as many pieces of advice as you want. Doesn't mean they're going to listen unless they live that exact life that you went through. Um, Micha, thank you so much. I really appreciate, I appreciate what you've built because I think what you've built has truly made entrepreneurship easier than it's made it easier to turn your passion into a freelance side hustle, which can then turn into all business. It's made it easier for entrepreneurs to start because now I don't have to worry about how, okay, I can't afford a $100,000 per year developer or even a $60,000 per year graphic designer, uh, right out of the gate when I'm building my company. So you've just lowered the bar and made creating things and building things easier for everyone. So that is phenomenal. Thank you. I appreciate you. Appreciate that a lot.