Lindsay McCormick - Founder and CEO of Bite | Building Mission-Driven Companies

Why the heck is toothpaste paced anyway? This doesn't make any sense. When it kind of becomes a succession, and then it's like, well, now I gotta finish it. The next thing I know, I'm like, I would be on my way to work. And I would be like, calling my friends who were dentist and dental hygienists, being like, keep talking to me about this piece. Lindsay McCormick. Lindsay McCormick. Lindsay McCormick, Founder and CEO of Bite toothpaste. One billion toothpaste tubes end up in landfills every year. So she decided to make her own, and that's what Bite was founded. In 2016, in her living room, she has made an appearance on Shark Tank. We really, really appreciate the offer, Mark. We just can't. Understand completely, guys. That's our value. It is shocking, but someone says no to me. What was last time that even happened? At the beginning of trying that out, figuring out what type of ingredients I would need to make an effective oral care product. It was gonna be like a powder, and then I need to figure out how to make it into a tablet. And so I actually went on Reddit and looked up how you make drugs. This is not like a copying and basing something else in the market. At all. No. At all. Let's talk about entrepreneurs that are not building a product that is like sustainable first. What an entrepreneur should consider when they're trying to take a new product to market that doesn't have to be sustainable, for example. When you're building a company, it feels like you're like in battle skims, which is by one of the Kardashians. They have plastic free mailers, and they don't use a plastic tag on their underwear they use like a safety pin. You're not buying skims because they're sustainable. I was thinking about like they're making a single choice. Why? And to me it's like because they... So when you get a $200,000 order in 48 hours and you're working from your living room, how do you manage it? How did you scale up? How did you like effectively manage 50 million eyeballs looking at a business which it was just you in a living room? That is insane. Absolute. Welcome to Success Story. I'm your host, Scott Clary. The Success Story podcast is part of the HubSpot podcast network. They've been supporting this show for over two years now. And when it comes to running an incredible business, HubSpots got your back now. If you're an entrepreneur, you know that nothing matters more than generating revenue, but sales people aren't just closing deals, they're tracking down leads, they're forecasting growth, they're whipping up reports, managing contacts, creating content, crunching numbers. The list of tasks goes on and on. With Q4 around the corner, there's a better way to win. It all starts with the new HubSpot sales hub. Now, with the HubSpot sales hub, your data, tools, and teams are fully linked inside a smart and highly customizable platform that feels good to use. It's easy. Turn prospects into pipeline and close your deals all in one place. Plus, sequences and smooth workflows help reps, streamlined tasks, and spend more time on what they do best connecting with customers. With sales hub, closing big deals is simple. Try it for yourself at HubSpot.com slash sales. So I've always been really passionate about sustainability, and I can think of two very pivotal events. I know you said one, but one was just understanding how important this to me, and then the other one was starting my business. I remember, I think it was fourth grade, when you're washing the paint brushes in art class. You know, the art class once every other week or something. I said to the people, I was like, we need to turn off the water in between washing the brushes. Someone was like, who do you think you are? Like mother nature. And I just remember being like, wait, like no, but like I just like we need to preserve this natural resource. So like very young, I was kind of like, oh, okay. So sometimes being eco, you know, conscious is not looks highly upon. And then I guess the other one would be, you know, when I started my company, I had been traveling all the time for work going through the little toothpaste tubes. And there was this one very pivotal moment where it's like, the connection as bizarre it is of like the toothpaste tube and the landfill. You know, of like, I just had like tossed out that little travel tube in my, I had at the time like this wooden trash can. And I didn't use plastic bags in it. So it like sunk at the bottom of this wooden trash can. And I was like, that's like a pretty substantial piece of plastic that I just threw out. And like, and I'm doing this every other week. So I was traveling all the time for work. And I just kind of that was like the, wait, like what, what am I doing moment? That really made me obsessed with oral care sustainability and bite. And like, you know, eventually sprung bite. So, yeah. Okay, so it was, so it was this like subconscious passion of yours. It started to manifest and it did eventually manifest into something very, very tangible. Walk me through your early origin story. You were working, traveling, had a traumatic event throwing a toothpaste into a, into a wooden, but even then, you were still using a wooden, you're using a wooden trash bin as opposed to using a plastic bag. So like, this is always conscious, right? Yeah. And like, honestly, look, I picked out that trash can because it was cute. It like matched my decor. It wasn't like, that wasn't an ego decision. You know, and like, I wasn't using plastic bag. It was like, it was just like, I just didn't want to use a plastic bag. But like, it was just that exact moment where I was like, whoa. So, you know, before starting bite, I was a surf instructor and a snowboard instructor. So in, I live in Southern California. It's, it's super beautiful here. And you can go from the beach to the mountains in an hour and a half, like without traffic. So in the summers, I would spend time as a surf instructor in Malibu. And in the winters, I was a snowboard instructor at Bear. And it's, or it's a bear mountain. And so it's about, it's, you know, two hours between. And it was because I loved being outside. I loved nature. I loved, you know, just playing all the time. And it was from being in the ocean all day every day. Those summers seeing more and more plastic wash up on my board. You know, you're out there with the kids. And like, we would put, like, little pieces of plastic in the bottom of our wet suits. So we could throw it out. And I was kind of like, wow, like this in the four years I was doing it. There's more plastic that's washing up. And like, this is Malibu. It's, you know, we're in like a first world country. This is a clean beach. And there's more and more plastic. So that was kind of the beginning of being like, plastic is an issue. This was, you know, it was early 20s. And I decided after, you know, playing outside for a very long time, I wanted to get a different type of job. And I wanted to specifically work in nature documentaries. So I got a job in unscripted TV here in LA as an assistant. I was, it was my 29th birthday. I got a job making $600 a week. I didn't have health insurance. I was like, living on a friend's fruit on. But I was like, I, this is what I want to do. I want to work in nature documentaries. I need to work my way up. And so that was kind of the beginning of my journey as a TV producer. And then when I was traveling all the time when you're producing shows, you're on a plane like every other week. And so that was the little travel toothpaste tube that I was like, wait, like record scratch. Like, this is the way that I'm trying to not create. And yeah, that's how it all started. And then, okay, so then how does that, so how does that turn into a side hustle? So what's the first iteration of the side hustle? Okay, so the first iteration was, I just want to find something that I can travel with. I can refill my shampoo bottle. I can refill my conditioner bottle. I can refill my sunscreen. But I can't refill a toothpaste tube. So what can I do? So I looked into tooth powder. That is a disaster. It tastes terrible. I got all over the place. I looked into other toothpaste tablets because there were a few on the market at the time. They were in plastic. And they had like really ingredients that I wasn't into. And they didn't taste so great. So I was like, okay, I love the idea of a tablet. But like, they come in plastic. And they're not, I don't like these ingredients. Like, what can I do to make this better? And so that's when I started looking into what's toothpaste? How is it made? I learned about all of the harsh chemicals, artificial flavors, sweeteners that are in commercial toothpaste found out that most toothpaste is tested on animals. I was like, wait a minute. I'm like a longtime vegan vegetarian. I don't like stuff that's tested on animals. So I was like, okay, how would I go back and actually make this? So I started, I would be on my way to work. And I would be like calling my friends who I went to high school with or college with who were dentist and dental hygienists. Being like, can you talk to me about toothpaste? Can you talk to me about like the, you know, oral biome? Like, can you talk to me about these things? And so that was kind of the beginning of trying that out. Figuring out what type of ingredients I would need to make an effective first, like oral care product, right? It was going to be like a powder. And then I need to figure out how to make it into a tablet. And so, and then I need to figure out how to make it into a tablet into my living room. Because a lot of times, at that time, when you look up how to make a tablet, it was all, like, industrial manufacturing of, like, these, you know, $100,000 machines and everything. And I was like, no, no, no. So I need to know how to make this in my living room. And so I actually, like, went on Reddit and looked up how you make drugs. Because I assumed someone who was making, like, drugs in their living room would probably need, like, it's, you know, like, toothpaste, like, something in the living room. So I was like, oh, I need a binder. I need, like, this. And like, here's what's commercially available. Here's what I can get. Here's what's good for you. Here's what's not. And then put it together. And I mean, I was going to be the one using this. And so I was like, it better be effective. You know, like, my teeth are very important to me, personally. Yeah. And then I figured, you know, I would give it to, then, you know, at this point, there's now a significant amount of money and time I've put into it. Like, I've done research. I've taken all my money. I'm going to say this is not like, this is not a light task to take on. Because there's no, this is not like a copying and pasting something else in the market at all. No. I had to completely figure this out, like, completely myself. Like, we have, you know, where we have like patents out on the formula and patents out on the design. And so it's like, this was something that was an entirely new thing that I had to figure out. But it was one of those things. And I feel like anybody listening can probably relate to where at first it's like curiosity. But then you kind of get like further and further into it. And now you're like, well, I put so much time and money into it. I got to figure this out. And so I was like, well, and I kept on just being more and more curious about what the solution is. And also just like why we have been like, by the end of this, I was like, why the heck is toothpaste paced anyway? This doesn't make any sense. Like, there's actually like anything that's actually good. So far down the rabbit hole. Right. Exactly. The rabbit hole and it kind of becomes a succession. And then it's like, well, now I got to figure this out. Now it's like, what's happening here? I got to figure this out. And so then it's like the next thing I know, I'm like buying this tableting machine. You know, I bought this tableting machine. And then I had to get like a bigger tableting machine. And like now I've put in, you know, probably hundreds of hours of time and thousands of dollars of like different ingredients and stuff. So then I was like, OK, and then my first tablet sucked. They tasted terrible. I was using them because I like for you know, you're like forced to eat your own cookie. But like they, they were not that great. But I wanted to make something that I liked and that other people liked. And then I figured I would just put this up online and recoup the expenses that I put in. And I figured like, OK, so this is when the business kind of started. Then it was like, OK, I want to put this online. Where do I put these, you know, first, like, now that I have these tablets, I put them in the glass bottle, have the label, have the ingredients listed out. Following all the rules that you have to. And then, you know, it's a refillable system. So it's a glass bottle with compostable refills, the first ever doing this. And so I was like, you know, how do I sell this, right? If I wanted to. And I figured I would just put it up online and just sell it kind of passively. And eventually I'd make back the 6K that I put in. You know, I figured like that's kind of how this was going to go. And so I, this was back when Shopify was new. Like, it was pretty new. There was not, it was like, it was the newer thing Etsy had been around for a long time. So I was on Etsy, I was on Shopify, and it was like iPhone photos. And like, the tablets still did not taste very good as they do now. And it was like V1 and it was very imperfect. But it was for someone who was buying toothpaste on Etsy, you know what I'm saying? Which I had done. I had bought toothbrush powder on Etsy trying to like find a solution. So I was like, there's people out there who want these things. And that was kind of the beginning, that was the very, very beginning of bite. That's amazing. And obviously that was a lot of headache and stress trying to take this to market. I've no doubt, this is a wild story. I mean, I think about the problems that people have just taking a copy of an existing product to market. This is a true invention or something relatively net new. And I can only imagine trying to sell little tablets of white powder on Etsy and wondering. And trying to convince someone to actually buy this. Yeah. When did the, you know, a lot of people talk about the overnight success, which obviously is never overnight. But when did it start to make sense that this was going to be more than just recouping your costs? And this is actually going to turn into a viable business. Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, the first of all, like the thing about like the white pills, halir, like it was ridiculous. It is hilarious. So it was like I had, when I bought the machine that I bought, I had to explain like why I had to send like a photo of my driver's license and why I did. And I was like organic toothpaste tablets and you send it to like the FDA or whoever's monitoring these machines, like to Nazi drug. And it was just so, it was like so funny that I was like, this is ridiculous. You know, and I'm like driving around with like all of these toothpaste tablets and white powders. And I'm just like, this is like ridiculous. And my search history, if they would have like looked on my laptop, then I'm like, this girl's trying to figure out how to make like under, you know, like Xana. 100%. That's all I can think about. I would have never ordered this stuff on Etsy. Like I have no idea what I'm getting. It's exactly ridiculous. But I was like, but them scrap. Like honestly, also too. It's like real. Like when you work and unscripted, like you're scrap, you know, it's like these things just embedded. So I think, you know, it was it really. This was again back in 2018. The, you know, the zero waste movement was pretty new. Like it was and the idea of like the zero waste influencer, like hadn't even been a thing. Right. And so at the very beginning, there was a few different blogs like my plastic free life going zero waste. They were not big at the time, but they were the biggest, you know, on there. And it was kind of the beginning of the online sustainability conversation. And so because I had a product, like as you said, that was new. Like this had something that they, that this very, you know, target. Now we say, you know, target niche. It was a perfect solution for them. And so they started buying it and talking about it. And it was for me, I remember the first time starting to see these names come in on Shopify of being like, I don't recognize that name. Like that's not my neighbor, you know, like I didn't go to high school. You know, like who are these people? And they were coming in through these, you know, now they're called zero waste influencer sustainability influencers. But at the time, they were just, it was somebody who, you know, was living a sustainable lifestyle, taking photos of it and putting on Instagram. And then finally being like, wait, hey, there's a product that we can use that gets rid of the toothpaste tube that, you know, has great ingredients. And I had explained everything on my website, why I made the choices that I made. And it was that little, the very beginning seeds of word of mouth that really started going. And so then the big tipping point was they kind of started talking about it. We were starting to get a reputation. We were the only zero waste toothpaste tablet on the market. And, you know, in this community. And women's health, which this was again back in the heyday of Facebook, had was doing like these, I think it was like weekly segments on women run businesses. And they were like, hey, you know, we found your business looks like you're trying to do something good. Could you send us some iPhone footage of you, you know, talking about your business and why it's different. And we'll put a video together and like put it up. And at the time, these videos got like a few hundred thousand views on Facebook. Like that's it. But that was huge for me. I was like, that's huge. And so I was like, absolutely. I, I shot it honestly before I went, like I had to leave for work. It was like six in the morning. My hair is a disaster. Like I wish I would have known this thing. So like I, because I was like, oh, as you feel into thousand views, like we just got to get it out there. Then I sent it to women's health and didn't hear anything back for weeks. And then I was sitting at home and my, my cell phone just started going crazy. Like whenever Shopify makes a sale, it goes like, chitching. And I was sitting home. You know, that's nice. But I feel like now I'm scarred because what have it is like my phone was just like, chitching. And then like, ching, ching, ching, ching, ching. And it just started going great. And I was like, someone is hacking my side. Like what is happening? And turned out the women's health had put up the video. Didn't tell me, you know, because what is, what does it matter to them to me? You know, and so it didn't tell me. And it had just started going crazy viral. I mean, within the first few hours that hit it or the first few days it had gone up. It had over two million views. We did over two hundred thousand dollars in sales just that first like 48 hours. Which I was making this in my living room. Right. So like we were now back ordered. You know, I like it was. No kidding. I was going to say you can't fulfill that. You weren't suspecting that at all. Expecting to. No, not at all. And like it's and like there was, you know, the Etsy thing does the out of stock thing Shopify. I had not set up to do out of stock. I didn't know it was an option. So like it just kept selling and I was like, I mean, okay. And so it and then what happened is that. I mean, that video, I think they had taken it down, put it back up, taken it down, put it back up. But like collectively it had like over like 50 million views by the end of it. Like after the, you know, the first like year that had gone up. But what happened is it kind of like ricochet around the internet where then it was. You know, it wasn't just women's health and business insider reached out. They wanted to make a video. Then, you know, it just became this. This thing that was way bigger than. Then my living room. And that's really when it took off. So how do you manage that? How do you manage that growth? That's a blessing. It's beautiful. But a lot of people can fumble that too if they don't know what they're doing. Like fulfillment. You get tons of pissed off customers. You could create, you know, half ass product by accident, ship it out. Massive, you know, everyone's mad at you because you're not getting the good product out. Or it's just like super, super delayed. So when you get a $200,000 order in 48 hours and you're working from your living room. How do you manage that? How did you scale up? How did you effectively manage 50 million eyeballs looking at a business which it was just you in a living room before that virality? Right. And it ended up going like that. But before the end of it, we had done like 1.2 million by the end of that. That is insane. It was insane. Absolutely. And I was, I mean, I actually found a note that I had written to myself at that time where like, I was just like, I have never been more stressed in my entire life. Like, I had an eye twitch. I wasn't sleeping. Like, it was just like, it was full, like, oh my god. And, you know, I kind of, it was like, I had spent so much time feeling like I had this like baby bird of this company that I was protecting. And like, nurturing and, you know, just needed, it was so little and frail. And like, all of a sudden, like overnight, it grew up to this like gigantic tarot actor that was trying to like rip my face off. And I was like, how do I manage this thing and like, not get everyone mad at me? And, you know, this whole thing. And so the first thing was like, understanding what I would want in that situation. If I was a customer who bought this girl's toothpaste tablets off this video on the internet, like, what do I want to hear from her? I want to know why I don't have my tablets. And so I was like, I'm so sorry. This, this has gone while, like, while beyond my wildest dreams, like, growing up. Like, we're back ordered. I was making this in my living room. Like, we're looking for a manufacturer. If you want your money back, I will give it to you. Let me know. But if you're okay with this, if you're along for the ride, like, we're looking for a manufacturer and I'll send this out as soon as I get it. And I thought that we would have this massive attrition. People were just going to start asking for all their money back. Hardly anyone did. Hardly anyone did. They totally understood, like, they were like, we're in it. I was able to, and then this was the thing too, was like, I had to then find a manufacturer to make a product that they had never made before. And like, with ingredients, they had never worked with before. And so I was like pounding on the door of all of these, like, supplement manufacturers basically being like, can I please give you money to make this product? And I will come in. I will teach you how to do it. I will do anything, you know, like, it just, like, please. And finally I found one. And it was just like, it was, it was wild, you know, and I was very communicative with the customers. And I never held their money hostage, you know, like, for every single time I emailed them, I was like, it's taken longer than I expected. And I'm so sorry, I will refund no issue, you know, like, it's just, I think that that was, it was building trust, understanding that, like, that that's what's important. And then kind of going from there. I'm amazing. And when you found that manufacturer now, what was the first thing? If I'm manufacturer, how does that actually lead you into the conversation with Shark Tank? So at what point, because I, this is also wild because you turned down investment on Shark Tank. So you found a manufacturer, you probably hire maybe some full time, maybe some part time to sort of help you with the operations. Then what's next? You're thinking about raising money, you could have just bootstrapped it, you're looking at Shark Tank, probably other options for raising money as well. So walk me through that saga. Yeah. So it was with, it was like so rapid and with like that money. So with the thing about Shopify is like, it was, it was essentially like an accidental kickstarter, right? Because all of a set without a fee, because all of a sudden I just had all this money that was hooked up to my personal bank account, by the way. I had to like go into like the nearest chase and be like, I need a business bank account. I need to take this all out immediately. And so it was like, okay, like get this sorted. But it was, you know, now I had this money. So it was like, okay, fine a manufacturer pay for the product upfront. You know, get that sorted. You know, for, because the video had gone so bonkers viral, you know, Shark Tank has, there's, there's, there's, you know, I'm sure multiple different ways of getting on the show. But they have, and this is not, you know, confidential information or anything. They have, they have casting people. And so sometimes they're reaching out to, to brands and founders. And sometimes you submit through their website or however you do it. And, and it's like, neither one has you a better chance of getting on the show. It's just they're trying to pull in. Ever with. There's much talent. Yeah, exactly. And so they had reached out when we were going viral, like still crazy. I don't know. Like I hardly had a manufacturer on board yet. And they were like, hey, do you want to audition? And I was like, now is not the time. Like this is now is not the time. And so it's like, I got to wait. But like for the next year, can you let me know? And so, and then maybe we'll go through the casting process then. And so sure enough, next March, that was when they reached out. And I was like, I feel like things are still pretty wild, but enough to, to do this. And so it was also to the point where. When I went on Shark Tank, it, I wanted a partner. And so I had known, you know, the, the power of Shark Tank. And like the, the success of some of the companies that the sharks had backed. And I was like, this could be a really good thing for bite. I am a new founder. You know, I don't, you know, I'm learning as I go. And it could be really helpful. And of course, I did all the research. I figured out which sharks actually worked with the companies. Which kind of gave you a team instead of them. You know, like I was very, like I took it like. You know, you wouldn't invest in meeting very much knowing. Like the actual. As you should. Yeah. And like it was. So it was just kind of like I really, I think I want like a partner in this. And I feel like they'd be really, really smart, you know. And so you have to go on with a sharky deal. Or else you just get, you know, the whole conversation becomes about the valuation. It's not, it's just like totally not. So I wanted to make sure that we had something that was attractive. Going on there. And I think, you know, what was really. Really like interestingly helpful about going on a shark tank that anybody can do. Was the practice of if I'm going to stand up like on stage in front of like. All of the US and like these sharks that literally want to rip me apart. And I'm going to tell them my business. Like what matters? How do I communicate it? How do I make this entertaining? And like what's my pitch? And I think it's something that I had never had to think about. Because it had just been such a wild ride that really honing in that helped me forever. And I feel like that can I still do that. I still think like sometimes when I'm, you know, as we're going into different levels of bite. I'll take a step back and I'll be like if I was going on shark tank and I had to prep. And I was going to be like ripped apart in front of on national TV. What would I say about my company right now? And it really brings you back to basics. It makes you realize like what matters? What doesn't matter? And like what is actually like the like the line drivers of your company? And so when you had offers on shark tank and you turned them down. What was the reason for why you turned them down? And also just maybe give a little bit of context for founders entrepreneurs. Just speak about taking on money. What does it come with? The strings attached. Positive negatives. Do you recommend people take on money or self fund or bootstrap or whatever you want to call it? Just teach over that. Yeah. So I think I'm going to say stuff that is like totally against a lot of conventional opinion. Let's go. Let's go. I know. Because you know, it's like the old adages of like take as much money as you can as fast as you can. You know, and like that is not how I feel at all. Especially when it comes to CPG, which is consumer package good. It's basically a hard good, right? I think that we're bootstrapped. And so I started with $6,000 savings. We got yes, really lucky to be able to have the amount of money that we had in our bank account to then kind of fund our business. But I still think that even if you don't have like this crazy viral success, the concept of making a product and then selling it to a customer and then getting that money from that customer and then reinvesting that money to make more products. And like I feel like that is how you have a very healthy business. And I think that especially I understand why you need to raise money if you are a tech company. Because you can't make a tech product. I don't think you can. I don't really know tech. But I'm pretty sure you can't make a tech product without really expensive engineers and designers and all these people that you have to pay upfront to have anything that's even remotely usable. That's not the case in CPG. You can come up obviously a toothpaste tablet in your living room and you can sell it. And it's this very basic, these business basics where it's like make a product if it does well. They buy it and then you reinvest the money. And to me, it means like it's you're able to, first it's like you have market proof that your businesses is like you have, like it's something that people want because it's able to survive without inflating it with VC. And I honestly think like this massive rush of VC money into CPG. I feel like I'm using all these different terms. But venture capital money into consumer package goods has really created an interesting situation in the market because there's all these products that haven't really been proven out. That now are getting like built and they're buying ads and they're hiring people. They're like creating this kind of like artificial competition. That now after iOS 14, now I'm getting really into the weeds, what you said. I mean, the go for it. I'm here for it because I'm dealing with this stuff every single day. I hear you 100% 100%. So and it's like now the problem is like, so if anybody listening to you, so what happened with iOS 14 is that this happened and I believe it was like 2021 where Apple decided to change their privacy concerns. So their privacy, yeah, privacy concerns. So it's really great for people in general. We're not tracked the same way. It was really tough for businesses. And at first, it was an opt in situation. So they made Apple made the change. Anybody with an iPhone or a laptop, a Mac laptop. It was only it only did something. If you clicked a box and said, yes, protect my privacy, then Apple made it opt out. So you were your privacy was protected whether and you had nothing you didn't have to do anything. All you did was update, right? And so what happened is that that really made a lot of businesses very blind, right? We were really, really reliant on being able to find people in a very surgical way. And granted, we had no information on you as a person. We didn't know, you know, but we were able to basically categorize and find things. All brands were doing this like through Facebook ads. That's why Facebook ads were killing it. You put $5 in. You can get $10 out. That's kind of the way it was working. And so a lot of these brands with products that were mediocre are brand stories that didn't really make sense. We're just shoving money into the Facebook machine and growing. And so the more money you could raise, the better you could do. And I think that it made a really unfair environment. You know, and we were really lucky that we were able to kind of wet like to even live in that environment, being bootstrapped and being the way that we were. But it was because we had this like really fanatical fan base and really niche product, right? So now you actually found product market fit versus thought you found product market fit because you had like a 10X row as, which isn't product market fit. But that's the people we're getting. And that's what that's what the issue is VC money. Because you can just like you can hide stuff. And that's like people always talk about they're like all problems are solved with growth, not freaking true. Because if you're balanced, you just upside down, growing is actually a bad thing. If you're putting more stuff in a leaky bucket, that's a problem. That's not actual growth. And so I think that for me, it was very much because I was like an outsider to this industry. I didn't expect to like have this online, you know, CPG company. It was just like, how do I do business? What's what's good business? You know, it's like, oh, okay, like take this one. And like, and so I think that's kind of what we always stuck to. And now we're kind of seeing it, like these, it's kind of like, especially now with this kind of looming recession. And like the way things are changing, it's like, businesses are not able to raise money that the way that they were. And they're having to find, they're having to figure out how to become profitable. Where it's like, as a CPG company, I just don't, I feel like, it's like, I don't know. For us, we've always been profitable. We've had to, you know, and I think about that. But by the way, that's not the norm, but that's the way business should be. That is the way business should be. And then when you take on VC money, it creates unrealistic expectations. Growth at all costs, right? That's, and that's why companies are bankrupt. And losing a lot of investor money, too. Right. And I think something, too, is that, and like what that also kind of, it's just so many, like, you know, kind of problems with that. And then also for me, though, and this was before I knew about business, right? So like, when I first started this, I didn't take VC money because I was like, I don't want anyone telling me what to do. Because I'm making ridiculous choices sometimes. Like, when we decided to go palm oil free, like, we annihilated our margin. Like, it was so freaking expensive for us to go palm oil free. But I was like, I know that this is what we need to do to grow. Because then it further differentiates us for anybody who's copying us. We have the scale. We can do it. We'll be able to catch up. But I knew that like, as being a new founder around a table of bunch of people who knew what to do if they had given me money, I don't have to listen to them. And I didn't want to have to listen to them. So I was like, okay, I'm going to stay bootstrapped just because I want to be able to constantly run this, you know, with always keeping sustainability at my core. You know, and those types of things at the core and not have to worry about it. Then I realized like the real business thing of being like, wow, I'm really glad I didn't walk into that trap. You know, I'm really glad that I didn't end up being like, you know, what I will just throttle this up. You know, and so I think that was something that I was, you know, initially it was kind of like a moral thing. And then I realized it was a better business choice, you know, and so I think, you know, and we were eventually able to kind of make up that margin. But I think, you know, I do understand why people do take money. But if what I would recommend to people is if in any way you can't, like if any way you can just like stay bootstrapped, like, why not do that? Like, okay, sure, maybe your company won't grow as fast as like a competitor who takes on money. But it's not necessarily a win-it-all cost. This is not social media. It's not like there's only one Facebook and everybody else, you know, I feel like that's what people kind of think with CPG. People like choice. People want, for every schmitz, there needs to be a native. For every, you know, Colgate, there needs to be a crest. And it's not the same as like my space dies to Facebook. And I think that's why there's this like, I think that's why people got kind of really into feeling like they needed to raise as much as they could, to grow as big as they can. But I just haven't found that to be true. As you all know, the success story podcast is part of the HubSpot podcast network, which has incredible podcasts for entrepreneurs, business leaders. People just wanting to upscale themselves. One of my favorites that you need to go check out is my first million hosted by Sam Parr and Sean Perry. They have incredible guests, Alex Ramose, Sophia Amaruso, Hassan Minhash, all sharing their secrets, how they made their first million, and how to apply their learnings to capitalize on today's business trends and opportunity. Go listen to my first million wherever you get your podcast. You know, very, very smart. And now you're still profitable and now you're still in business and now you're. And still growing. Have you ever taken. Yeah, you're still growing. Have you ever taken on money? Or no, you never taken on that. I mean, that's a beautiful place to be in. That's incredible. And there's, you know, yeah. So and who knows, maybe one day we will, because people do talk about, you know, if you need to hit the next echelon, you want like, you know, take private equity money, take what I, but at that point, it's a business decision and we're in the driver's seat. And it's because we see like a really like a not a foolproof that doesn't exist. But like, you know, a path to growth that we're like, we take this and this is exactly what we do with it, you know. I want to speak about, well, a few things. There's so many different directions, but one thing that's obviously very important to you and to to to bite brand is sustainability. So I want to speak about sustainability. Obviously this was something that was like built into the core ethos of the product from day one. So it was really a non-negotiable that almost every single decision for the company had to sort of tie into sustainability. But let's talk about entrepreneurs that are not building a product that is like sustainable first. So walk me through what an entrepreneur should consider when they're trying to take a new product to market. It doesn't have to be sustainable, for example, because I actually, you know, I've built business in the past myself and the question is like, what are you doing for you know, equality and equity and sustainability and all the things that businesses should focus on. And you try and do your best, but my God, it's like, I'm just trying to get the business off the ground right now. You know, we don't have an exact perfect HR memo for who we hire right now. It's like freelancers on Upwork and, you know, we're trying to be sustainable. But like, we have no margins and we already had to go overseas to get the product and like, we're trying to bring it back to North America, but we can't even afford that yet because we don't have economies of scale. So how does an entrepreneur think through all these problems outside of, you know, just trying to get the business off the ground and start it? And I know there's probably value in being sustainable. There's marketing advantages and then sure there's certain even if you are raising money, there's certain venture capital firms and money you do get access to. But just talk to me about that. Yeah, I mean, and I get it. It's like when you're building a company, it feels like you're like in battle and you're like the last thing I want to think about is like, do I use a craft mailer? You're like, I don't, I can't even get my orders out. You know what I'm saying? Like I literally cannot even get my orders out. I don't care what kind of mailer, you know, like just get it out. So I get it, you know, and every penny matters. And I think that, especially considering I'm a huge proponent of bootstrap, right? Like this is like, they're so at odds with each other. But what I would say is, you know, I do think like right now so much of like, there's such an advantage to have sustainable practices in your business and to talk about them. I think, you know, it's really important that people understand like what, like what you're doing and why you're doing it. And I think that like it, it's definitely, it needs to be tailored to each business. But I do think like an example that I am just, I can't believe I'm saying this, but like very impressed by is like skims, which is the buy one of the Kardashians. And yeah, and they should, they have plastic free mailers. And they don't use a plastic tag on their, on their underwear. They use like a safety pin. And I just, and I was thinking about like why this big company that is appealing to mass market, you know, women who maybe don't really care about sustainability as much possibly they're not, you're not buying skims because they're sustainable. Like let's just, you know, but they're making a sustainable choice. Why? And to me, it's like because they understand that sustainability still does matter. And it is a marketing, it is a marketing thing that's important. And it is something that they will get credit for. And I know that sounds like very, because like we're business people, right? You have to think about what's business for me. It's like, it's built, it's ingrained in my business. So I get to, I have the privilege to make choices at the expense of margin for the plan X. I'm like, that's why it exists. So this is why we're doing this. I totally understand someone who's trying to build a business that doesn't have sustainable roots. But maybe they're market, like who are you marketing to? If you're marketing to anybody who's testing high in mission driven, you know, purchasing, which is anybody millennial and under, you know, and actually it's some of our biggest customers are boomers, who are like we, you know, like we want to make changes and this is easy. So I think it's like it's understanding that people do care. It is part of their purchase decisions. Big brands are even seeing this. And like, and I'm, I guess the point that I'm trying to make with Sims is that when you see like the biggest brands making a choice, there's probably a lot of focus groups testing behind that. Like they didn't make it out of the goodness of their heart. Let's just say that they're making it. There is a strategic, it's a net positive, but there is strategic behind it. It's rather behind it. And so, and I think that that's something where, you know, it's you like as your, as a business owner, kind of understanding, you know, you got to understand your competitive landscape and what differentiates you from anybody else in there. But depending on who your, your market is, they're probably, it probably doesn't matter to them in some way. And can you, it doesn't work. And so it's like, and then it's figuring out it's finding this one easy win that you can do. Maybe, maybe instead of polymailers, you use craft mailers. And it like, maybe it impacts margin, the littlest bit. But you like write a blog post about it and you send it to different, you know, eco influencers. Or you do something where like it becomes a kind of a marketing thing. And then, and like, change that into your, your business model, essentially. And then you have that one thing done, you know. Do you feel like it's something that entrepreneurs should consider day one so that they don't build a company in a non sustainable way. But then they have to pivot later on. Is it something that should be like top of mind? Just like an extra, you figure out your marketing, your sales, your, you know, if you're fulfillment, if you're CPG, then you check sustainability off as well. And at least do a little bit of research to you, like what the bare minimum is. I mean, I would love to say that. And I understand why someone would be like, I still can't. You know, I still just need to get this off the ground. I need to get, you know, what I have access to. But I do think, and this is actually something like, I do think that putting those things into the DNA of your business is going to be much more. It's like, it's very helpful because as you grow, that will be something that's just kind of easier. That was something that we, we did where we got certified as a B corp this year. And the reason I want, and I started this two years ago, it's actually no. I started like the first time I opened my B corp application was in 2018. So it took me literally four years. But the reason I did it, and like, I didn't even have a full time staff when I was, when I was in 2018. But I wanted to get, I knew that becoming a B corp would be incredibly hard. And I needed to make sure that it was something that we were thinking about and building into the company because, just like what you said, pivoting is freaking hard. And if we start getting kind of, if we start bad habits, young, we're not going to be able to, it's going to be so much, it's going to be like moving the Titanic to fix it. And so, yeah, I guess I would say, if you can, and like, you don't have to go all in, right? You could, you could make something where it's like, we're going to make the choice to do paper tape over plastic tape. A little bit more expensive, but we're going to do it. And then like, when you're in business for a year or two, then say, we're going to switch to, you know, we're going to pay to offset orders. We're going to go carbon neutral for our shipping, you know, and like pay to do, it can be something that's like slowly kind of snowballing. It doesn't need to be all at once. And I think honestly, all at once, if you're trying to build a business is really tough, unless you're a sustainable business. And that's like your whole thing. Then that's your, that's your, that's your entire thing. But yeah, no, that's just tips for people so that they can like sort of get off on the right foot. So it's not overwhelming because you've never built a sustainable business. God forbid, you've never built a business. It's like holy shit. Where do I start? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're like, thanks for adding another freaking hurdle to my already ridiculous list of hurdles. I can really appreciate that. No, but there is something to be said for understanding like the nuances of a business and the customer that's going to be buying your product in 2023. I think that is very important. I think it's under under emphasized for some reason. It's not even building it for, and actually it's the exact point. It's, it's, it's, yes, you're building for your customer in 2023, but really you're building for your customer in 2026. And like, you know what I'm saying? Like you're, you're putting stuff into your business. That's going to be there. And people are carrying more and more. Like we're seeing folks like tests come out. Like data come out more and more people are making purchasing decisions from mission driven, for mission driven reasons. They want to support the business. So it's like it's not going to go away. It's not going to, it's going to get more intense. So it's like get your, get it, get your ducks in a row now because it's just going to become more and more important. Okay. A topic I want to speak on for a bit, which I think is very interesting is expanding into different products. And, and once you have your, you know, your key product and it's working well going to different markets. So what was your thought process when expanding on bites product offering from that first product that was obviously doing well? And then now you have to go into different markets, look at different customer demographics. You have to maybe alter your marketing. Does that potentially hurt that core product offering? Because you've done it sort of seamlessly. And now it seems very obviously it never is that easy. But it seems like you're an easy candidate. But what do you think through what did you think through when you were trying to, you know, expand? Yeah. So I think, you know, some products were easier than others. So we started with our toothpaste tablets. They come, anybody just like a quick overview. They come in a glass jar with a compostable refill pouch. So you use what's in the jar and then you rip open the pouch and you pour in the jar. And that's kind of, that's like very easy. So then our next product was our mouthwash tablets. Also incredibly easy. It kind of works the same. You pop it in your mouth, you bite it down. But instead of using a wet toothbrush, you swish some water around. So that was like very in the same cadence, very easy. And then we had toothbrush, then we have a bamboo toothbrush and floss. All very simple. The next one was whitening gel. And that one literally came from customers asking. They were like, we don't want to use strips, strips suck. They make our teeth hurt. They're plastic. Like, do you have anything that we could use? And we were like, and I spent a lot of time being like, what, like, what could we do? I can't make an eco-friendly strip, like, it's not in whatever. And so I was like, well, what if we do, you know, take a pen, but instead of the whitening gel pen, you know, with plastic, put the gel in a glass bottle and then have the same type of material that we use to make our toothbrushes to make an applicator brush. So you basically dip your applicator brush into the gel and then you paint it on your teeth. That was incredibly successful. It was something that was a little hard for us to make. We actually still have some issues with when it was super hot over the summer. Our whitening gel formula, we called it, it broke, like, quote, unquote, like it, it, it, it became water and not really water. But we had to, we were like, oh, man, this thing can't survive 150, you know, like sitting in a mailbox in Austin, Texas in the summer, right? It can't. So we need to figure this out because that's why, you know, and so those are the types of things where it's an incredibly successful product. We made it because customers asked for it. But we still have to QC it, right? We are not QC. I mean, like, the quality was fine, but we needed to make sure that I could withstand 150 degrees. Every edge case, every random scenario, yeah. Right. And so that was the whitening gel. And then going from oral care to personal care was definitely a way bigger thing. And I think that, you know, it was, we went into deodorant specifically first because it was something, you know, I use these products every day. And I was using the deodorant that comes in the cardboard tube. And it was just like super obnoxious to push up, like eventually the tube, like gets really disgusting because it's like, it's like getting on your sweat every day. And so the cardboard is like pulling in that bacteria, can't get the lid on. And I was like, this, like, the sucks. This is a terrible user experience. And so I was like, how do I make something better? And so we came up with, you know, we have our cardboard tube. It's a, it's totally compostable. But it goes in this like really beautiful aluminum container. And so eventually, like, so basically the cardboard never touches your armpit. And it's really travel friendly. It looks sleek. It's beautiful. This was the first time that we had ever dealt with fragrances. We had, we had only dealt with flavors. And toothpaste flavors are not super adventurous. So kind of figuring out like, what are our cents going to be? And like, how do we do this? And it was definitely, it was a lot, you know, and we're a really small team. And then we, and then what I was wondering is like, how do we take our customers along for this journey? How do we get, like, have them, like, will they trust us to come out with a deodorant? I was going to say, how do you, because you're known for one thing. So how do you launch a new product and market it without alienating the existing customer base that only knows you for this one particular thing? And like, even the name of your company, like it, like, right? It's like it insinuates like something oral care, right? Like bite. Like, I mean, like, there's actually an acronym behind it. So it's not. But the acronym was retrofitted. Oh, actually. Yeah. Our name. It was bite toothpaste bits. Like, that was our name. You know, when I made this in our little living room, you know, whatever. And so going from like, okay, so first we had to go from bite toothpaste bits. And then we're like, we have mouthwash. What are we going to do? Oh, let's just go by bite, right? And so we then was like, it was like, you know, a floss by bite, whitening gel by bite. Like, you know, bamboo toothbrush by bite. And then it was like, wait, crap. Now it's like deodorant by bite. Like this makes zero sense. Like what? How? How did you do that? How did you not alienate? Yeah. So first I was like, well, we need to have bite stand for something, right? So like, first of all, like, it can't just be bite anymore. You can't do something else. And then what is it going to stand for? And then it was, I literally was on a run. And I was like, going through in my head, like all these different things that it could be. And it was like, because of the earth. And I was like, holy crap. That's exactly it. That's it. Everything we do is because of the earth. It works out. Like, you know, I was like, that's it. That's our new name. When you just start putting that like under, you know, bite instead of bite toothpaste. Now it says bite because it's the earth. We need to start on getting people to understand that that's who we are. And then we need to explain just like, we're not just an oral care company. We are a, we make better products for you in the planet company. And anything that you're using every day, we want to make better. And so that was kind of the beginning of these, you know, of that conversation, which was very natural. It was already something that we definitely believed in. We just need to now communicate it more, which is what we did. And, and then when we came out with our deodorant launch, it was insanely successful. Like to the point where it was just something where it was, you know, a lot of work and a lot of all nighters and a lot of stress and a lot of concern on my part. This became incredibly expensive. Like it was the first time dealing with custom tooling. It was the first time doing the like dealing with fragrances, which were just so much more expensive than flavors. Cause we, you know, we obviously did natural and it needed to be all, like, and then safe synthetics and all. Then we need transparency. What's it called clauses with them? And it was just like, it was so it was this behemoth. And then we launched and it was just, it was great. And so then I was like, okay, our customers trust us. Like this is this big. What do you think? I mean, of course, besides creating a great product, what do you think led to the success? Like that particular product resonated. Like you could have launched any personal care product. Was it the research you did? Was it the intense understanding of the yacht? Like what was that thing that made sure you did not know at the time? It was a for sure success, but what made it a success? I think it was the fact that it looks like nothing that had ever been out before. You know, like the case that we had, like it's this really like reflective, like shiny case that just like looks. It's like beautiful and eye catching. And that does well in ads. And so it's like, it was this beautiful thing that, and it also like people were just like, this makes so much sense. Like wait, why? Because when you, when you take the amount of formula that's in our, our deodorant, and then you match it up with what's on the shelf at like some drugstore, it's actually almost the amount, the same amount of formula, but it's half the size. So it's like people are looking at this being like, it's kind of just like, it was the same thing with the toothpaste tablet of being like, why, why isn't it just all done like this? Like why, this makes so much more sense, you know? And so we, and we also did clinical testing. So I wanted to make sure that this was something that, and it was, you know, with human volunteers that we paid. And it was through a third party company. So it's all legit. But we want, I wanted to make sure that like, it's going to work and that we have testing behind it that we can speak to. And so it was one of those things where it's like, it is more expensive than other deodorant on the market. Not not like an like absorb like a, you know, crazy amount. But yeah, but it like so was our toothpaste. So like we are, we're selling to this customer already. So it was kind of like, okay, this is something that like they, we know our customer wants something that's better for them better for the planet. They're okay with paying a little bit more as long as you justify the price. And so that was the big thing. And we actually, I would say we had a hard time because the case was so expensive. And we had to like explain like that you only buy the case once. And then the refills are actually the almost the same price as like a commercial deodorant. We had to, it's like customer perception was really hard on that. So that was like a really good learning for our team. How do we get better? How do we, you know, how do we, how do we fix this and communicate these things better? And so, yeah, I think it was, that was the learning. And then, you know, since then we had body bomb and then a carbon capture cleanser. And, you know, some products are more successful than other body bomb. We're having a hard time getting off the ground. It's doing well. It's still a good product. But it didn't like kill it like deal. And it's not killing it like like a carbon capture. But that's okay. You know, and I think, yeah. No, I just, there's so many lessons. And I think that you're like the perfect case study for why people should invest in premium. Why people can do things slightly differently. As long as there's a story and a reasoning behind it, you can justify cost. You can justify added expense, which ends up making, you know, a good stronger company. So now you have added expense because you have certain ingredients or lack thereof. And you have certain packaging and you build business a certain way. But that's all justified as long as you tell that in the story. But, and this is sort of like replicated again and again against all your products. But the one thing that I think is really interesting and maybe you can, you probably understand this. And it's a good lesson for entrepreneurs. One thing that you've done repeatedly is you've been able to educate people how to change their habits. So it's, it's, it's, it's a wildly hard thing to do. Like it's very hard to get people, consumers to change their habits, to take toothpaste and, and take it in a different fashion. Or deodorant and, and refill it the odorant, which is like that's something that no one's ever done in their life for most of us. Right? So what would be the lesson? Because if you can accomplish that, then you can bring something very novel to the market. But what would be the lesson for entrepreneurs that are struggling to change their consumers' habits? But they have this great product, perfect product. How do you do that? Yeah, I love that question. You know, traditional marketing and traditional product innovation is the, it's off the premise that people are lazy and they don't want to change. And I'm like, that is a really dark view to have a people. I think people want to do better and they, and they just need to know why and they just need the tools to do it. And so we believe that people do want to change their habits. And all you have to do, and that, you know, all you have to do is to explain to them why it's better. And, you know, for us, it's like the ingredients and the convenience and the, you know, sustainability to it. And it's just to have, like, faith that you don't need to convince the whole world that your product is better. But that person who's on the fence, who is thinking, like, do I want to change? It's having belief in them that they do want to change. And I think that that was the thing, like traditional toothpaste companies, like they were just like, oh, people are never going to change. You know, they're having it. They do it twice a day every day. And we're like, well, we believe that people do want to do better. And that, you know, when they do, when they're, when they're, you know, properly, you know, educated and they understand why not everybody, but some people will enough to build a business. So I would say that if you have a product that's better than what's out there, it's, it's actually this is like a tangible strategy. It's writing a big long blog post that seems incredibly boring, but that you passionately care about and explaining the choices that you're making. Then taking that blog post and making it into digestible tweets or Instagram things. So people kind of understand your messaging. And then that will then be broken down and then your customers can, you know, read that, but there will be the subset of customers that really do care about something as much as you do. And they, they'll read that blog post and they'll get their friends. And that's like the beginning of kind of like that grassroots marketing. And that's how I started by, and it's still what I do. Like there's, if you look at our website, you'll see these big obnoxiously long blog posts that I wrote explaining why we chose the material that we did for our bamboo toothbrush. Like why we chose the bristles that we did. And I think that that's the type of thing that it's your defensibility, you know, as makes you unique as a founder, you know your product more than anybody else. But it also is like the beginning way of grassroots marketing and getting people to change. What would be your advice for an entrepreneur that wants to build a CPG brand? What would be the one thing out of everything that you've learned? The one takeaway that they should sort of consider so that they don't, so that they're successful. I would say it's cliche, but it's not know your customer know your customer as well as you know yourself and know your industry. Because I think that what we've learned in this big upheaval with iOS 14 looming recession, it's all comes back to business basics, which is, are you making a product that is fork customer base that is, you know, able to buy it and who will buy it. Are you like if you know that more than anybody else, you have the competitive advantage. And I think that right now, like, especially if you're starting with nothing or a little bit, that's the best, that's the best path to go. I love that. Okay. Okay. I'm going to close this out with one last question. But before we pivot, is there any other things that you wanted to go over or that we didn't go into? I mean, we can go and we could probably talk for a lot longer than this on just just random entrepreneur topics, but in terms of sustainability, in terms of growing the company, in terms of diversifying product or anything else you just wanted to teach over that you want to leave the audience with like floor zero. Yeah, we covered a lot of really great stuff. And like usually what I would end is something on sustainability and, you know, trying to make the world better, which is obviously something that I'm incredibly passionate about, but I think like specifically for this audience and anything that could be helpful is to understand that everybody's kind of figuring it out. We're all figuring it out. And it never feels like you have it figured out. So I would just say, you know, get get really comfortable with the uncomfortability of being in a new space every time. And that's something that I'm constantly having to remind myself when it's like, why do I feel like I always know nothing. It's like because I'm constantly leveling up and when you get to a new level, you don't know anything. You know, and so I think it's, you know, at the very beginning, it's really hard. But it's just like get just get comfortable with with the idea that you will always be learning because that's how you like love that's like literally what leveling up is you end up in a new area that you don't understand the rules or the game and you have to learn them very quickly. And then as soon as you start feeling like you're comfortable and that you got this you level up and you're disoriented again. So like just just enjoy the process. It's it's okay to not feel like you're doing like you know what you're doing. That's that's a good thing. Honestly. Good advice. Very good advice. Okay. Where should people connect with you? So social website, all that. Yeah. So our website is trybite.com, T-R-Y-B-I-T-E.com. We're on bite on Instagram, bite on TikTok. And I'm also on Instagram by, it's, it's Halen'semic. And yeah, I, that's the best way. Perfect. Okay. And last question I ask everyone. Obviously you've had incredible success, built bite up, had a great career. And when you look back and, you know, you're still, you're still young. So it's like it's probably will change over time. But at this point in your life, what does success mean to you? Oh, that's a good question. I'm literally working on that right now. Success means to me. A feeling of flow, which is what I'm working on more this year, where it feels like your. You get to spend your time on the things that you're the best at. And I think that that's something where a lot of times you can get bogged down in the weeds. And it, it's, it's okay. That'll happen. But when I feel successful, when I feel like I, I don't think any of us are ever going to feel like we made it, I don't think that's part of a challenge for your journey. But I do think that, you know, when I feel in flow and that my superpowers are being used the best is when I feel the most successful. So that's what I'm looking for that feeling of flow. You