Olivia Landau - Founder and CEO of The Clear Cut | Building a Diamond Empire

Welcome to success story. I'm your host, Scott Clary. The success story podcast is part of the HubSpot podcast network They have great podcasts. 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There was no future in it. That's what I was always told Neither my parents so my dad's side of the family came from generations In the diamond cutting and diamond dealing portion of the business My dad's from Antwerp Belgium, which used to be a really big Capital for diamond cutting and my mom and my dad had their own antique jewelry business Neither of them you know graduated from college my dad learned the trade from his dad and so on and so forth So when they they're both immigrants and when they came to America and had me their goal wasn't for me to join Into the industry they were like, you know, we're really gonna focus on education We want you to have like the American dream which is like to work like a really stable corporate career and But so when I decided you know, I so it was never in my plan and it was never something that I was interested in until after I graduated from college I went to NYU and I had been majoring in media communications I really wanted to go into print journalism, which you know at the time was kind of a dying um Kind of a dying industry in the end of itself. Yes, so I was really in here On what I wanted to do for the future. It was a tough job market at the time. So I wanted to extend schooling I had always known about GIA, which is the gemological Institute of America There was a campus here in New York and I pitched it to my parents I wanted to extend schooling go to GIA become a graduate geomologist and I would take my skills from there to leverage, you know, a corporate job in luxury jewelry So maybe working at corporate at like a tip in the year I heard he wins and something like that was like my initial angle but So they agreed and when I went to get my graduate geomologist degree I really fell in love with Diamonds and gemstones I guess it was in my blood all along and I was really passionate about it And so this is what I wanted to pursue and I also met my now husband and co-founder while I was at GIA so um, you know, he comes from a very different background He was working in Africa at a fair trade mine at the time um I started my career after graduating at Tiffany on the engagement floor fell in love with bridal jewelry Diamond specifically and then started working um in wholesale so that's kind of how I got my first foot in the door Why why do you feel as though Your your your family sort of warned you that diamonds are a dying industry. Was there was there some truth to that Coming from somebody who knows really nothing about the history of the diamond industry at all. Is it Outside of what you are building A little bit of like a dying industry You know, the way things have been done um for decades and it was the same way and it's a very antiquated and old school industry that is hesitant to innovation and change um It the way my parents did business and the way my grandparents did business is dead It doesn't exist anymore or it's It is dying and on its way out because the new generation of consumer Is completely different and we shop completely differently. So when I got into the business, you know, the consumer who was getting their first engagement ring Was someone who I could relate to we grew up with the internet. We're very comfortable like doing a ton of research online um Knowing everything um about the purchase and we're comfortable making the purchase online But we want to be empowered before you know The diamond industry was always an industry that was cloaked in opaqueness has like a kind of a sketchy Reputation you never know who to trust. That's why it's like oh, you know when I got started I was working in wholesale my now husband was in business school and a lot of people were like Hey, do you know a guy that can help get me a good deal on a ring? And that was like kind of the vibe and I just happened to be like the go-to guy So through working with clients and understanding the pain points and like the lack of trust and information That's how I launched the clear cut in 2016 as an educational blog gear to millennials um start posting some designs on instagram and through social media That's how people found out about me and asked if I could create their custom rings like complete stranger So I think the generation we You know, we just had to adapt to the new consumer and I think that's with any industry as new generations come along new problems new economic conditions Yeah, certain ways of doing business die, but then it's just you have to adapt to the new way of doing things But it but it really it is interesting That people like business owners business leaders people that ran this industry for so long Are so set in their ways and they don't want to change and you look at like the blockbusters and the hotel industry and the cab industry And this is just like another another story of why people are not why aren't people changing and you did you You sort of led with education you led with Transparency because even the first iteration of the clear cut was a blog is like it's literally giving over information for free Yep And that's where we our ethos is still today. It's like education transparency and educating and empowering the consumer to make The right purchase for them and that's like the ideas and the foundations that we built our whole business on and how we're going to continue to build it so Coming from so it's so interesting because you had you had Experience in the space tons of experience the model is something that has never been done before so even walk me through When you're writing this blog After you've you know, you've you moved on from Tiffany and you're you're basically just a thought leader in the space and the subject matter expert You're putting this together this blog People start approaching you because you're transparent. They start to build trust or they start to trust you excuse me How do you think through the first version of of the clear cut like what is the take to market? So to speak yeah, I mean it never was supposed to I never had the intention of being an entrepreneur or starting a business This was something fun that I was doing on the side during my lunch breaks before and after work and I Through social media and the blog, you know On just a whim was selling over a million dollars like on like after work and on the side. So that's my now husband Conwild. Yeah, that's so wild. So Kyle my now husband And co-founder was in business school and he was like, you know, you have a business like there's potentially here that you must be building some sort of white space in the market if You know complete strangers who you've never met are like purchasing their most Prize possessions. They're making their biggest purchase with you through Instagram DMs. So That really led us to take a step back and understand what was missing in the industry at the time it was you know, either mom and pop jewelry stores that have been there for generations in your town and You know, not a lot of optionality, but you had that trust with them But you you were paying a bit of a premium and then at the time there were a lot of those online marketplaces popping up like the blue niles The brilliant earths and that was Not very personalized but had unlimited optionality, but you kind of had to do a lot of the research yourself pick and choose and it was kind of like a This box into this and it wasn't that like romantic or handheld experience And or you had to like know a guy in like a diamond district and that was only if you you know More in a city like New York or LA or Chicago that had that and it was still like kind of giving you that Not super transparent or trustworthy vibe. So we were like, okay, we're filling this void where you know Our clients are online. They're on Instagram Pinterest. They know exactly the look they're going for the aesthetic They don't want to compromise they also know that they don't want to overpay and of course like their luxury brands like the Tiffany's You know heritage brands that you know you're paying a premium for the brand name but and the quality But people didn't want to compromise on quality aesthetic or price and This is a really big purchase It's a really emotional purchase and what probably one of the most expensive purchases young people make in their lives Um that come with you know marriage and starting your life So people do want to be hand-held and have like a very personalized experience So that's where we like kind of came in and we started out doing everything very unscalably So Once we realized there was a problem in the market and that we had a potential business We decided to quit our jobs Um and pursue it full-time we got into a tech accelerator here in New York called tech stars in 2018 and that's what I know them Visually launched it Um, and it was really to do do everything as unscalably as possible to understand the pain points to one day build out a system that we could scale this very Um, you know one-on-one experience. So our goal was always to democratize this private jewelry space That was one's only you know accessible to You know very high net worth individuals celebrities like to have your own private jeweler to hand pick your diamonds create a custom ring But to democratize that idea and scale it so First started off with just the custom diamond engagement rings and then a lot of our clients came back saying Hey, it's time for wedding bands where it's an anniversary. Can you make me this or this or that? So we started making these custom fine jewelry pieces and then finally launched our ClearCook collection a year later in 2019 which are our everyday fine jewelry pieces and wedding bands Which is one of the fastest growing categories The following year we in 2020 um, we were named Forbes 30 under 30 we had so much momentum And we were like this is the time that we're going to build this proprietary software that we always dreamed of building because we knew How the process worked Um, very intimately um, so we started building this technology in like February of 2020 and then in March Obviously COVID happened and everything will lock down Um, we manufacture everything in New York So we like couldn't do anything so we're kind of at a standstill, but we took that Moment as an opportunity to really double down on the tech um and which proved to be You know, very um a very good decision Which was scary at the time to spend the money to do that when we didn't know what was gonna happen, but You know most of our competition and all um, you know Retailers bringing more to retailers were closed. So it ended up being a really great time um In the custom jewelry or like diamond space Well, I was gonna I was gonna say I I feel like COVID was this Huge opportunity for businesses that were tech enabled that did have like a finger on the pulse of their market and a lot of horrible things Happened to a lot of businesses for people who understood where they were going It could be this this tool that just allowed a massive amount to gain a massive amount of distance on Like the legacy industry so to speak so people that went online people that figured out again How to sort of triple down on tech. This is what really You know Took where you were that was already successful and then put you light years ahead of Diamond district broker with a little piece of paper on the wall on a street in New York all of a sudden It's like it's so you you've just captured tons of market share In a very short period of time to be so tech first the inevitable what was happening to the industry Yeah Okay, and so I'm curious when you you know when you're When you're launching these products year after year And you had so much you had so much traction even like pre formal marketing What is the what is the strategy? I know you've used social a lot So obviously like you you know the audience well you're not just their buying habits But they're the way they consume content the way they're advertised to the way they consume information So what worked the best what was the thing that really in your mind outside of just again business model But marketing strategy that really moved the needle. I mean we you know inherently we started like I said as an educational blog and then Through social media first Instagram and now tiktok has been a really big platform for us You know continued with that education for so we built like a very strong community of People who really love you know diamonds and jewelry and we say like a lot of our followers and clients know more information than a lot of sales people at local jewelry stores Because we get so niche and so deep so it was really carving out that community through our educational content And that's something that's still a huge priority for us. We do very very little paid marketing actually and most of it is organic It's really important for us like I'm still the one. I've all floated a lot of responsibilities Through growing businesses, but I'm still the one that is in charge of like all of our social media I'm the one answering all of the DMs. I'm in charge of like all of the ideas For the content we produce every single day You know we have like a cadence of you know kind of like a schedule of what we do so people can expect on Wednesdays That we'll have our Q&A that on Fridays we'll have our longer form educational videos And then in between kind of doing like these mini series Especially with TikTok, but that kind of all are things that You know our customers really look forward to and like engage with we're really transparent about pricing sourcing All of that things that you know, maybe you can't get that information from other outlets And tell me something because obviously you're killing it on social and I totally respect that you didn't just outsource it and you you take such care as a founder and In like the strongest marketing channel that you own and you still care about it immensely Even though you could probably find somebody talented to figure it out So what I'm curious about and what I think you've done exceptionally well is you've built community and obviously you've not just built an audience on social But you have people interacting and engaging you build a really strong community, which I think is already tough enough the question though is I can see it being quote unquote slightly easier to build community if you have a product that people purchase a lot They purchase it every month. It's a recurring product. It's something they need every single month But for for a diamond or a ring people do the research and then they make a purchase and I know you have adjacent products and and other products that you can sell to people But the main product the main purchase is a is a a couple thousand tens of thousands of dollars depending on your budget diamond ring or or ring and You still keep them around you still get people involved in the community So my question is community building is hard enough How do you get somebody to care about a community after they've bought the actual product that they came here for what keeps them around Well, I think it's a couple of things you know when we first started we always Had a theory that your engagement ring was the gateway drug to Subsequent find jewelry purchases meaning once you get your engagement ring then you you know start obsessing over your wedding bands anniversary gifts push presents all of that What we realized is yes, that is definitely true, but As we are engaging with new audiences younger audiences different platforms like tiktok We have a lot of people who dream about their engagement ring like since they're a little you know Kid but you know are not quite there yet, but love learning about it our obsessed with it and love all of our other products That might be a little bit more accessible before it's time for their you know Proposal so you know we do find that we have a lot of clients who have like purchased our you know gold hoops or our locket So even our accessories like our lux traveler And then you know When the time comes for their engagement ring they know exactly what they want. They've been researching it And I think it's a unique product where it's not like socks or something like it is Something so symbolic and something that you Hopefully wear every single day for the rest of your life and we'll pass down For generations to come and it is a pretty complex Um Product and there's a lot to know about it. So people become like obsessed with learning about it the products The product itself the product surrounding it and you know it inspires a lot of people to even you know go to g.i.a. Or become Um go into the jewelry industry because they get so into it So I think it is like a unique product in that way where yes, it's one big purchase There are other products surrounding it of course that you can always engage with But it's not like an every month or You know every even couple of months type of purchase it may be a few times a year once a year for like a big You know for Christmas or an anniversary or something like that Um, but it is it's these are the types of products that people like fall in love with and there's so much to learn around it And you can never stop talking about that Yeah, I mean of course, so I that makes a lot of sense you get it's I love the term is a gateway drug for It's you do get people hooked though because again nobody's really done this nobody's really focused on education And it's strange to me that the company seems to think Not yours obviously the traditional way of thinking is let's gate. Let's gate The knowledge escape the information And just pray that somebody makes a purchasing decision based on what fear emotion lack of education and it's just like it is a shady way to do business to be quite honest Well, because the more ignorant your customer is the easier the sales going to behave You know the more educated the client is it might be a longer sales process or it might be more difficult for you to source the exact thing that they want Um, so it's not as easy so it's better and easier to keep your clients uninformed On the flip side of that the more educated the customers that they have a positive experience the more loyal will be because they don't want to go anywhere else Yes, because you're the one that taught them everything exactly That's the goal. Um, when people go down this rabbit hole Uh, I guess they said the customer in 2023 is very smart. They're doing the research. They're looking at GIA. They're looking at all They're looking at all these different sort of things these sources whatever um, they're looking at your social What are the things that and we'll go a little bit more into like the nuances of the industry and what to look for But I'm just very curious. What are the things that they just very quickly they should be thinking about when they start to look for rings What let's like set the benchmark or the framework for these are best practices for who you want to do business with Uh, types of things that matter things that don't matter In diamonds for example Yeah, and it is it is um a daunting experience once you first start because there's so much information and misinformation And options and things to consider so you know first and foremost I would say um Do your research and take everything with a grain of salt like see where if you when you're doing your research You know, what are the motivations behind this because a lot of information is not unbiased information So do a lot of your own research first. I would say um, you know Even before you're planning on getting engaged It doesn't hurt to like try on as many different shapes styles things like that You know months even years before it's not embarrassing. It's just something you want to compare it Knowing what you're looking for what you want to prioritize where you're willing to compromise on And um, you know what you want your investment to go to like are you looking Are you looking for something that you know, it's gonna stand the test of time is gonna hold its value Are you looking for just like the biggest thing um, and that everyone has their own goals if you are gonna buy a natural diamond I would say you want to buy a GIA certified diamond There are lots of other Demological labs out there That just aren't as strict so GIA has the it's the foremost authority in diamond grading They have the strictest standards they invented the four C's the color cut clarity Um Those standards so you want to make sure if you're going to purchase something that you know the quality of what it is um, then you want to make sure If you're buying a natural diamond, I wouldn't recommend anything that's color or clarity enhanced Because it's just going to devalue your stone um And then you want to work with someone who it you trust someone who you believe is going to Have the correct motivations behind the purchase have you has your best interest in mine is gonna be an advocate for you Um, so I would you know Narrow that down to After you do your research and narrow down to a few different sources And then whoever you feel most comfortable with that you feel that you can trust go with that source um Okay, no, that's good I know that you're I know that you're holding back because you're like, okay, so how much you're probably thinking how much How how nerdy does Scott want me to go right now with Why you should be looking for an a diamond um helping yet Yeah, no, I know that we'll go there a lot of percent go there um When when people are looking at you know, you mentioned um GAA is kind of the gold standard Does that just from an industry perspective does that add a it's a it adds a significant premium I'm assuming to diamonds that are GAA certified or or because there's other there's other Like bodies that would review diamonds, but you're saying this is like sort of like the benchmark So if you just want to be sure and you don't want Is there like a lot of fraud? I guess is the question No, I was like basically. It's not like fraud. It's just there's a slight premium for it, but that is um You know for the knowledge and peace of mind that you are purchasing something that is what it is like for instance I had a diamond and I had it certified by two different labs I had it certified by GAA and another lab just to see what the describe and see would be because everyone says It's about two color grades different or two clarity is different or whatnot this diamond came back from GAA and for the Those who I don't know if I can't should get into like the nitty gritty, but color grade starts at D Which is completely colorless and goes all the way down to z This one came back as an eye color which was near colorless in terms of clarity it came back um In the slightly included range clarity refers to the natural inclusions in the diamond So it came as an sc2. So it was an i sc2 from GAA and from another lab it came back as an e vs2 So obviously they graded it as a much higher grade second highest color Which is very far from i eat i and vs2 to sc2 is About yes Three clarity graded is different. So you know if you think you're getting a great deal on an e vs2 You probably aren't because it's an actualy and i'll have sc2 Oh, I understand okay, so they're so it's not just the GAA certification if somebody Grades it at a high so you actually if you grade it at a higher standard In theory you could be paying more for something that actually isn't worth What they're saying it's worth if they're grading it at a certain grade. Oh, okay, so then yeah then the premium Doesn't really matter because you're getting what that diamond actually is as opposed like some marked up and what it's worth yeah Okay, that makes a lot of sense and i'm trying to think when when people When people are looking for These diamonds obviously super emotional purchase is this an investment opportunity or is that Not what you should think about when you're looking to buy a diamond You know i think in terms of what does an investment mean like do you it's not like investing in stocks or putting your money and to a cd or something But diamonds do have natural diamonds do have inherent value and they do fluctuate with the market So i would say you know if you bought a diamond in the 90s That diamond is worth a lot more even on the regular market than it is Then it was when you purchased it you also have to take into consideration of where you purchased the diamond Did you purchase it from a luxury retailer because they probably had a significant mark up And if you're trying to resell it in the near future You're probably not gonna recoup what you paid retail for it But if you paid you know a lot of our clients who bought something in 2018 Who you know decided to Resell or something in 2021 when prices were much higher they some people made money on their diamond So it really depends on the market one great thing about natural diamonds is that Because it will have that inherent value you can always trade it in or upgrade it I know it's not something that people think about when they're getting engaged that oh I'm not planning on you know ever selling it or you know treating it in or upgrading it But you know more often than not that happens a lot. So you know although you don't plan on things having it It's a great Way to have like peace of mind insurance. It's also um To have that inherent value is great for passing it on to generations to come like my engagement ring is an heirloom And you know hopefully one day I will pass it down to just to have that not only sentimental But you know monetary value attached to it too I just want to take a quick second and tell you about one more podcast You have to check out if you're a fan of success story It's sales evangelist hosted by Donald Kelly brought to you by the HubSpot podcast network Each week Donald interviews the world best sales experts successful sellers sales leaders and entrepreneurs Who share their strategies to succeed in sales right now? He brings on Jeffrey Gittermer Jill Conrath Bob Burr Guy Kawasaki They share actionable insights and stories that will encourage Challenge and motivate you to hustle your way to more revenue for your business If you're somebody who's looking to take off in your sales career If you are an entrepreneur who's looking to sell more I think all of us are go listen to sales evangelist wherever you get your podcasts. I love that. So Like obviously we're gonna we're gonna talk about lab grown in a second, which is which is I guess by most people standard especially somebody in the industry pretty much worthless compare to it Natural diamond but in terms of natural diamond value It does retain to a degree. There's a lot of variables that play. So it's not like Because I hear like listen. I hear people say listen. I'm gonna go buy a Birken or I'm gonna buy it You know a Chanel because it shows x percent increase in value over time It's not as aggressive as that. It's not as aggressive as a stock. I'm sure you could make the same argument for A patek or an ap or some even some Rolex is a they increase in value. It is a luxury purchase But there's other variables that play than just I think it's probably more difficult for the average person To like have a good ROI on a diamond purchase if they don't know what they're doing Because it also just I only know very minimum. Go ahead. Sorry It also depends on like the market conditions because like In the past two years up until this year like diamond prices were skyrocketing. They were super high So you know if you bought it the right time and you traded it and are sold it at the right time Just like with any sort of stock that you know That paid off for you But also I don't think most people are purchasing their engagement rings Trying to like resell it or make a profit in the short term Yeah, yeah, I know that makes a lot of sense and and just one more one more Accuriosity about the industry like when you when you got into that you've been in this industry for a long time. So you're obviously Very well aware of what's what's good value? What's good quality? What's what's real what's not in terms of lab grown? But is there in this particular industry because like in all luxury good industries or is a certain amount of fraud Is there a significant amount of fraud in this industry or is it not because of GIA and other sort of bodies like that? You know, I think there's a lot of There's a lot of ways that customers can get taken advantage of but there have been a lot of elements in place to Protect customers like GIA certificates. I think right now with the lab grown and natural I think there's a lot more fraud going on because It's a harder to detect the differences like we have a machine that every single piece of jewelry we make goes through So it can detect if there's any like mixing in like parcels Of lab grown with natural. I think you know, I've seen a lot of people trade in their natural diamonds for larger lab grown Diamonds which I believe in and of itself is fraud because that jeweler is taking something with value and giving them something bigger That's worth zero dollars and Misleading the cut the customer. So in terms of fraud. I think that's the most rampant thing that's happening And it's I think you know our responsibility as like Anyone in the industry that if you're dealing with the consumer directly like it's your responsibility to be honest and upfront But unfortunately that's not not the case a lot of the time So let's talk about let's talk about lab grown So maybe just give a brief Just like a brief explanation as to how they're actually made for people that don't understand and what they are I am curious about Why why you feel that they're worthless How they're priced I'm curious about profit like the the points that you can make on a lab grown versus a natural So let's just go into it and this can be like a master class on you know, can't believe why not to to buy a lab grown diamond Like start off with how they're made because I don't even know So Basically natural diamonds are formed under the earth's surface near camera light pipes camera light deposits over You know in very specific Circumstances under high pressure high temperature over billions of years It's kind of like a natural miracle that occurs There are no new diamonds that are being formed all diamonds that natural diamonds have already been formed We're just extracting them. So most diamond mines will be depleted in the next 20 or 30 years and some of the largest diamond mines Like the Argyle mine in Australia and a very large mine in Canada have already been depleted So I think it is a misconception to think they're unlimited supplies of natural diamonds and they're not a rare and finite resource because they are and that's why they maintain value lab grown diamonds mimic this natural Formation process, but in a laboratory there are two main ways of creating lab grown diamonds There's chemical vapor deposition CVT or high pressure high temperature hpht Basically, you know slight nuances and differences between how to make them most of them come With a carbon or diamond seed and then it is built the lab grown diamond is built around that um and then basically most um lab grown diamonds are mass manufactured Right now most of them are being produced in China um and in india uh the rough which is Know before the diamond is cut and polished obviously a rough natural diamond looks a very very different than a rough lab grown diamond Lab grown diamonds are kind of like in these cookie cutter sheets They're cut into these like perfect squares and then they're polished and cut um so obviously the inclusions um in lab grown diamonds are going to be very different than natural diamonds because natural diamonds have um and natural Like organic inclusions that um You know you can't you can't replicate or they they would They're not trying to replicate those natural inclusion But chemically if you're going to go to the chemical level like yes, they are chemically the same Thing and so in terms of carbon their growth structures are different There are ways of telling the differences through machinery But if you are looking at your friend's ring and you're not inspecting it You're probably not going to be able to tell the difference the main difference is their mask. Would you be able to If I'm inspecting would you be able to yes, but if I'm just looking at it like Like I probably couldn't tell the difference between a real Birken bag and a fake Birken bag if someone was wearing it on the street either Um, but the main difference is it's a mass manufactured product There's unlimited supply um a lot of people have the misconception that it's more ethical or more sustainable Which is the fact that is I mean like that bothers me so much because Like They use an insane amount of greenhouse gases especially methane It's basically the fast fashion of diamonds once you purchase the it is worth a zero there is zero resell value It's not like they're less of value. They are completely worthless Um, and it's not going to help those diamonds aren't helping anyone Whereas with the natural diamonds like I've been to Botswana I would say three times in the last 18 months and that's One of the locations where most of our natural diamonds um are mined from and the fact that an entire country Like relies on a natural resource that they have you know Have uh, you know used to better like their people and their economy They were one of the poorest countries pre-1960s After independence they found their natural diamond deposits and have used that to become a Very wealthy nation every single person in the entire country goes to school for free Anywhere in the country through graduate school. They free health care. They've amazing infrastructure And I think that us as Americans um, which and we are the largest consumers of not of diamonds in general We like to think of Africa as one place and it's bad and like their children dying in these minds It's a highly technical operation and you need you know very skilled labor to Extract the diamond that's not like they're like children digging holes So I think that you know we grew up with that narrative of blood diamond But it's really actually Doing actual Africans a disservice to blanket everyone together and just be like well I'm gonna buy a lab grown because it's it's more ethical or more sustainable when in fact it's not at all And you know And I want to just sort of paint this picture because You are in this industry and you're in this business and several and you have this stance But I want to make sure people understand that this stance is not biased and what I mean by that is I know several of your competitors are probably very happy to Just go with the market and to sell lab grown and to make money on it because you can you can make A good margin on lab grown and you can build a good business. So it's not like oh, I started in natural and that's why I don't like lab grown It's really you you have strong convictions for a reason and it's and it and you could in theory overnight Start selling lab grown under the clear cut and make money on it and and and it could turn right you have the customer base You have everybody set up. We have left millions and millions of dollars on the table like With the reason why we decided not to sell lab grown when I mean it would have been the easy thing to do to just be like yeah We'll sell lab grown. It's like You can make so much more money on it because You have like 300% margins on lab grown diamonds right now Is that the case is that actually the case when that's how much money you can make on it? Yeah Um right now, so we we were the first people to launch a free lab grown traveling to like show the value I'm purchasing lab grown diamonds right now for about a hundred a hundred and fifty dollars per carrot Um are traveling and these are these are like I so a two-carat diamond would be That's conservatively they say like three hundred dollars whereas Some of my competitors are selling that exact same diamond same quality For last year like fifteen thousand dollars. Maybe now like five thousand dollars So it's an insane margin That's why like the misinformation is really being perpetuated by The industry and a lot of people are like you know what I don't really care about you know my consumer or like the long-term You know value of my brand. I just want to make money now So you know the reason why we decided not to sell lab grown is because when we first started the whole goal was I will never recommend something to one of my customers that I wouldn't recommend to my best friend Or it was belt on education and that's something that We felt very strongly that we still wanted to empower our customers and really give them the proper information to make The right types of purchases. So it didn't feel right to You know To sell lab grown even though that is the easiest way to make money right now for sure So you're you're I mean it's so it sounds like The way you're saying it's only a matter of time Before like the lowest bidder can flood the market with lab grown dime If you're buying at a hundred and fifty dollars or whatever it is per carat That's like free basically in terms of diamonds. That's basically free Only for free. Yeah, and the thing is that's why every There is all this misinformation to market Labgrown to keep the prices up to a certain level so people can continue to make their high margins Also another reason why We decided not to go into this is because when I was at GIA becoming a gemologist You know synthetic lab grown gemstones have been around forever synthetic rubies emerald sapphires these things This technology has been around and we saw what happened there was a spike when they were first introduced and now they're completely worthless and no one wants them So that's just a matter of time what's gonna happen to the lab grown diamond But with But that's only if like we can tell the story properly and properly educate the consumer because you know When the industry doesn't have the consumers interest in mind then you know This is just gonna continue and people are gonna continue to get rubbed off it Yeah, I mean I you know as somebody who's I'm I'm looking at diamonds. I'm looking at rings and it's it's very confusing like it's like it's super super confusing to figure out What why these diamonds are priced at the price that they're at for lab grown? It doesn't make any sense at all And they seem to be changing all the time so then you just default to okay. Let's just get natural But then you look at natural and it seems like well, it's the same thing for 5x 6x the cost so as like a as a layman consumer You start to wonder what are the actual differences outside of the fact that I'm sure my you know girlfriend will kick my ass if I bought a lab But that's besides the point um a lot of people probably they probably just fall victim to it because it's easy and it's cheap and it looks good Yeah, so I think it's really you know you really have to understand what the differences are and I think the story The natural industry, you know, causes old school because they've been doing the same thing forever They're like oh lab grown just a phase like people will understand but no there is a new generation of consumer That's coming up and we need to educate them properly and understand when you buy a natural diamond What does that mean and what's the impact that that has because People just dance around it, but actually if you're buying a natural diamond from a country of origin That is you know mining ethically. You're not only like directly impacting people communities entire countries but You're holding that inherent value something that is worth something that you can pass down for generations That has that meaning like your engagement ring that means so much than just any other piece of jewelry And I think lab grown diamonds are gonna be around they are a new category I think they're great for things like our travel ring when you don't want to wear your natural diamond Engage ring around or if you want to buy something, you know, that's very trendy for one season and don't want to spend You know money on naturals. I think naturals is gonna be something that you really want to invest in and something that you know You're gonna wear forever Well, it turns into like like costume jewelry, which is no issue with that There's no issue with that at all And for someone to say it's the same thing and say and to go even further to say they're sustainable and ethical is just ridiculous And it's just because they want to make their money now on their customer Well, I also think that you know, they're again, you sort of said like as as a as a business It's your responsibility to take care of your consumer And I think what people could be doing that are selling lab grown is probably the opposite where Um It's hard right now as as a as a as a young person. I mean cost of living is through the roof people can't afford homes Like it's insane like how much it costs to live really let's be honest So when it costs a shit ton of money to live Like I'm I'm actually curious because you probably know the stats how much people are spending in certain age brackets on engagement rings but If you can find a way to save 10,000 5,000 3,000 whatever it is amount of money on a diamond ring and it And you you feel justified because some sales rep told you it's more ethical I mean it doesn't take a lot to to persuade you Yeah, definitely and you know what I think for a lot of people I would go further and say like I would I personally would recommend you know with whatever budget You don't need to be buying like a four carat lab grown You know buy a one one and a half carat natural diamond and trade it up in a few years when you are like more financially established or you know that time comes but that you that you're still gonna have that value in the stone You know or if you are buying lab grown now like aspire to one day Maybe purchase a natural diamond, but if you're gonna buy lab grown You just can't overpay for it. You're just if you're paying what it's worth and I'm totally fine with it I just don't like clients getting taken advantage of you know Yeah, do you have an idea like just in terms of trends because I've noticed in the US people spend a lot of money on engagement rings and then I've seen Trends in Europe where the rings are much smaller and maybe not as flashy But I am curious for the average person in the US Let's let's pick a pick a professional salary of you know, they make a hundred I don't even know if that's a It's easy to live on a hundred K in New Yorker or Miami or LA any more because I don't think it is But say they're making a hundred hundred and fifty K per year They're you know at a university White collar profession doing well. What do they what do they spend? What is it? What is the the thing that you see most people budgeting towards this? Well, I would say that I can kind of give you a broader view I would say that I think you know in the past years the average Engagement ring in the US was around five thousand dollars. I think now it's gone down to closer to three thousand um What I would say for us is you know, we can give you a gorgeous good quality natural two-carat diamond starting around twelve thousand dollars and If you want for us our customer base does lean a little bit like More affluent I would say so our our average price point of diamond engagements that we see are probably between like 15 to 30 thousand dollars um But we work with clients that start at five thousand that go over Five hundred thousand and we treat every single client the exact same way Okay, so there but yes, okay, so if you're serving a more affluent clientele than yeah the the prices skew up But you actually have seen a slight reduction in the total spend um, which is interesting I'm curious as to why Around the US I think because of the introduction of lab-grown diamonds and just the costs of everything else going up like the economy You know isn't what it was a few years ago The speed to me give me like a little bit of a rundown of of like ethically sourced diamonds versus not I mean you you you've gone to Botswana a few times now um And that's you know you you mentioned that that that country's economy has been propped up by ethically sourced and mined diamonds I mean if I think of unethical I think of that movie blood diamond. I think that was the caprio But that's like again, I don't know much about this industry So what what is ethical versus unethical do we even like even have to worry about that if we're shopping at Like a diamond district store Is that something that really doesn't affect the day-to-day of of an individual looking for a diamond ring? I would say that the natural diamond industry is probably one of the natural diamonds are probably one of the most regulated natural resources Um because of the emphasis consumers, you know demanded um on the industry. So yes that movie showed what was happening in the 90s in West Africa during a civil war right now any natural diamond that is coming to the US market goes through the Kimberly process which um, you know Which maintains that that diamond definitely did not fuel any sort of conflict that is ethically sourced But now even more so there's so much amazing blockchain technology that's been implemented in natural diamonds that people don't know about where you know In now most diamonds that are coming out of the earth are being tracked on the blockchain From where they remind where they're cut so you know the country of origin the direct impact that it had So you can know did it come from Botswana and Namibia, Canada, South Africa and you know The impact that it had and where it came from and I think this is just going to be the standard going forward So you know, yes, I would say it's not something that anyone has to worry about had to worry about for the last like 10-15 years If their natural diamond is ethically sourced coming to the US market, but now it's like beyond ethically sourced where you can know exactly You know the origin and because I think that Uh before I even you know before I even knew the clear cut existed and and you know Even a couple of years ago when I just look I was sort of told Go to diamond district look for I guess like a broker certificate on the wall And that means that you're going to get a good deal and that person's you know a verified broker Now you're talking about blockchain Um, which is super interesting. So this is actually you know I I always have an issue because there's so much focus on blockchain and and and almost like the The you know the the making money side of it and the people are raising money for this project that project NFTs whatever hype foam all this stuff But so there actually are companies to do a really good job of tracing from from source from like the whole supply chain now Yes, and I think this is one of the best use cases of the blockchain Um, you know if you want to trace from the source where it's coming from But and like if you are a customer and you're considering buying a diamond I would like think you know take it a step further like do you know where your labgrown diamond came from? Do you know what your factory in China came from what are the working conditions there? Who did it contribute to and are you placing that labgrown diamond in a mind metal like gold or platinum and Why do you not care about the metal but you care about this stone? Because I don't think you know, it's so interesting I don't think people put that much thought into it people just follow what they're told to follow and if they know that there's an ethical and unethical diamond source in terms of natural diamonds that's they focus on but Do lab groans? I'm assuming they don't get the same treatment so they could be from some factory in China where People are not taking care of and why not 99% of them are being made mass manufactured in China and India with I don't think very I don't know what the working conditions are or a greenhouse gas emissions are from that process Shit, that's not good It's not good at all, but people don't think about that because the industry is not focused on that and they're not sort of bringing that to light Is that what I was you know when you're prepping for this Um, I was looking at some of the things that you're working on right now. Is that what tracer is? Is that that blockchain technology? Yeah, so we um we have been working with tracer, which is a one of the blockchain technologies That trace from mine All the way through the polish stone So um that is something that we'll be introducing or have upon requests now, but we'll be introducing To the public soon in the near future. I love that. I want to ask just a few more Few more engagement quick like rapid fire um because I want to know What's the most common shape? What's the most common like the most commons for people that are listening I'm sure there's some people that are very interested just so they have a good idea of what you know The rest of their friends are doing when they're buying engagement rings Will ask that in a second But I'm also very curious is this a recession proof business for for you outside of Being online do you notice consumer trends change at all when The market's not great the economy's not great the people slow down on engagement rings or are people still This is a life milestone to keep buying You know, what's interesting is that they always said that this was a recession proof business because people were always going to get engaged But they might just buy you know smaller diamond or whatnot Well, it's so interesting as we started in 2018 and every single year since our business Inception has been Not normal so obviously we started and then it was COVID and then it was this post-COVID Boom and then now it's you know inflation and whatever's going on now with lab grown So I have no idea you know engagements have always been one of the steadiest um most predictable parts of the jeweler industry but I think it was the CEO of signet that mentioned this that Engagements usually take three years from meeting your partner on average and you know This year had the lowest um number of engagements because about three years ago was locked down So we went through a very unique time in the world where for like six months people like weren't meeting each other at all And at that time we had one of the highest rates of engagement because people were locked in with their partners Um and had nothing else to do so I Historically yes, but who knows what the future holds every single year You know people ask if there's seasonality in my business some I say you know Typically it should but then one year vaccines came out and then one year we couldn't leave our houses So I have no I've no idea. I love no, it's just it's it's amazing to just see trends like this because You're right. This is like unprecedented times, but you know what smart people figure it out As as you've shown as you've as you've shown like time and time again um Okay, so for people that are listening that are are Gonna be matt if I don't ask you these questions What are the the most common the the most common carrot size the most common shape the most common Setting I know it's all personal, but like humor me. What are the what are the things you notice? We're for the clear cut specifically Yeah, yeah for for the customers to buy from you. Yeah Yeah, I would say like in general obviously round brilliance are the most like common traditional Diamond it's kind of like the shape of the diamond when you when you think of a diamond But for us a lot of um clients that come to us Come to specifically because they can't find What they're looking for at their local jeweler or online. So things that we really specialize in and see a trend for our fancy shape diamond So those are diamonds that are in traditional round brilliance right now emerald cuts and cushion cuts Especially elongated cushion cuts are very um trendy um Old walls have been very popular for the past You know three four years and are still like pretty solid Um in terms of styles of engagement rings Even though every single one of our engagement. Oh, and we also focused a lot and specialized on on antique diamonds like old minds and old year Those are really hard to source and they're really rare, but we specialize in finding them for our clients Um, but in terms of styles, you know, we do everything completely custom So will we've done you know crazy designs like things that are super unique bezel settings are very in right now But still I would say the most um requested setting is going to be our super skinny solid hair Um, it's just a really thin delicate handmade solid hair ring with a one and a half millimeter band Hidden halos have still been very popular. I would say one distinction I've noticed in the past year is that people were wanting like the skiniest skiniest skiniest band possible They're like 1.5 is like too thick and I'm like that is the bit you can't wear anything thinner than that every day But now people are kind of like I want something maybe closer to 1.8 something a little bit more substantial We've been seeing a lot of thicker wedding bands paired um with engagement rings So kind of like a slightly more like a masculine vibe um So those are some recent trends that we've seen people wanting like twists on classic something a little different than their friends have had I love this. Okay, the last thing that I I have to have to have to ask you about and I think it's so important because it's It's important to me um as somebody that does also work with my spouse to a degree Um, because every single day we're building stuff together even though we have two separate businesses We're always collaborating so not as not as not as in the same businesses you are with Kyle, but still um You know two people that are always trying to build together. I think it's very important But I am curious because it can either be Building with your spouse can either be the the most strategic thing you can do as a CEO founder entrepreneur Or it can be the most stressful thing you do So you're building this business with Kyle walk me through that relationship How you make that work the the strengths the weaknesses do you advise Building a business with a partner. I'm very much for it But I'm curious to hear your thoughts. I would assume you are too because you're still doing it But um, yeah, give us give us a rundown on on on that working relationship because everything is now inside the house All the stresses and the winds are inside the house as well. You know, it's really funny because um I always said I would never ever do business with a partner Um, mainly because my parents had a business together and ultimately it did not work out So I saw that firsthand and so I said I have no interest in doing anything like this So when a Kyle and I decided to go into business together Um, I was I was really hesitant. We weren't even engaged. We were just dating um And obviously was advised to get instead, but I would say it is probably I and it I think it depends on every Relationships dynamic like for us we have very different skill sets and we have A lot of respect for each other's skill sets and each other's positions in the company And I think it's one of the most rewarding things when we have the same you know goals and visions for the business You know because we are You know committed to like our future and like our personal life We're committed to a future together in this business and I think you know It's it can be he but like if you have a friend who's your co-founder, you know You may have different visions for the future So I think you know when you work with your spouse or your partner sometimes it can be You know even better because you have like the same goals in mind So he really deals with a lot of like you know, he went to business school He knows like he does like the finances the accounting all the boring stuff that like I am not interested in doing And like I'm definitely more of like the product person The content person So you know, I don't really step into his lane very much He sometimes will step into my lane, but that's totally fine. I think it's good ideas The I would say the hardest thing about it is um You know when we never stop talking about business we literally it's we never turn off word together at work all day Then we're home and we're talking about it But we kind of talk about it like this is like clear cut is our like first child together like this is You know We built it from scratch and like one day hopefully we'll take it to like the next level, but like we're both in it Um for the long haul so I think it can be one of like the most rewarding things to do with your partner Has it ever has it ever caused stress or or or I'm assuming I mean that's a still a super question building a business Will cost stress regardless. I'm sure it does cost stress. I think probably the better question would be When stuff isn't working that well do you have tips and you know what these are gonna be These are gonna be tips that are good for your specific situation But they'll also sort of bleed into just co-founder tips if they're not if you know the co-founders are not together But how do you manage that stress when You live with the person how do you make sure that it doesn't sabotage how do you make sure that What unfortunately happened to your parents doesn't happen to yourself? I think at least for me I am so grateful to have him there Going through harder stressful times with me because I can talk about it I can strategize I can vent I can have someone there who really understands what I'm going through No one it's being you know being a founder can be Extremely isolating like a lot of your friends may not be able to relate to or give you the right advice So I think like I found a lot of comfort especially in hard times to Have him have that shared experience and be able to you know think about solutions with me I love that I love that you found that working cadence that works and you see you see it as like a net positive I think it's it's so powerful because you've already solved for trust and in the person that you're That you're working with right in the co-founder which is literally the hardest thing to to figure out when you're partnering up with somebody Um So I'll sort of give you the floor to close this out What can people be excited about with the clear cut going forward? Things that you're working on other things that you want to hype people up about that you're going to launch in the future Sort of give us a rundown of the next you know next 12 months Yeah, so I would say um who knows what The next 12 months will hold but um We're really focused on our overall goal of being you know this generations jeweler for life um We will continue to come out with amazing educational content hopefully you know Hopefully instilling um more confidence in consumers giving people more information new amazing products and new launches Um kind of talked a little bit about um blockchain country of origin That's something that we're really going to double down on next year um and really you know show our Community you know the real amazing impacts and natural diamonds have um on people countries communities and Um, you know continuing to make beautiful jewelry and um being part of people's you know special moments um Yeah, I love that. No, that's I mean, it's a it's a very noble. It's a very noble mission that you're you're doing I think that anybody that has that that place In the most important purchase in somebody's life and most important event in somebody's life in some cases It's it i'm glad i'm glad you're behind the wheel on it because sort of even like you know this this quick hour podcast It's it's very telling us to the fact that maybe some people in the industry don't have the best You know and best interests in mind for people that are trying to navigate this super super important part of their life So I appreciate you a lot um I would say uh, I want to just ask to sort of rapid fire questions to close this out before I ask those where should where should people go Where do you want to send people to Connect with you. I mean You obviously all the websites all the socials just drop anything you want to drop Yeah, so you can follow us on instagram and tiktok at the clear cut And if you want to check out our Collection or shop art collection or read about all of our blog posts or clear cut couples you can go to our website Which is the clear cut dot c o Okay, perfect um if you had to out of all the things that you sort of figured out in your business If you had to go back and tell your 20-year-old self one thing what would that thing be um, I would say to Trust my instincts More uh, at least when I was starting out, you know, you have you're really unsure You have a lot of imposter syndrome. I like couldn't even like speak in front of like a group of five people And I think you know, I was always like Why me I don't really why not someone else like I don't know enough like what if people aren't you know Well receiving it like even starting my My blog like I was like I'm gonna be embarrassed people are gonna make fun of me So I just think like trusting your instincts believing in yourself not caring about what people think about you And I think that comes with like age and time and maturity But if I could tell my 20-year-old self that I would just say like trust yourself do it Who cares what people think and it often just takes one step um, whether it's a journey of like a thousand miles takes like the first step Yes, I love it um, and then last question You've had you know an incredible career uh, you're still building you're very much in it right now but When you look forward into the future we sort of spoken about what What the future looks like for the clear cut and for your your business mission but on a personal level What a success in life look like to you success in life um, I would say you know being happy and being you know fulfilled with You know as long as I'm having fun and feeling like I have purpose in what I'm doing every day That is like what success is to me every day wake up with like a mission and a purpose and feeling very fulfilled And having like something to look forward to And that's something I never not want to have so I think that is what success looks like for me