Karen Asprea - Interior Designer & Founder of Karen Asprea Studio | Billion Dollar Designs

Welcome to success story. I'm your host, Scott Clary. The success story podcast is part of the HubSpot podcast network They supported the show for over two years now and I've used HubSpot for the majority of my professional career One of the most useful tools that is included in the HubSpot suite of products is sales hub Sales hub is an all-in-one Platform built with the tools and insights that you need to communicate on a personal level with every lead Every prospect every customer. It doesn't matter what kind of business you're building Sales hub makes it easier to close more deals and drive more revenue You're looking for a better way to acquire customers and we all are because that is the lifeblood of our business If you're looking to make smart data driven decisions increase visibility productivity predictability of your revenue You got to look at sales hub It can organize and sort deals in your pipeline. It creates reminder tasks for your most important deadlines and manages leads It automates outreach it tracks and closes deals all in one place and on top of that It's free to get started and it grows with your business as it scales There's 1300 integrations and a ton of valuable add-ons customize it exactly to your needs with sales hub Closing deals is no longer a big deal go to HubSpot.com slash sales and try it for free Oh Thank you for coming on. I appreciate you coming on. There's gonna be a lot of fun. Thank you for having me Not's my pleasure. I want to start with a question that always Sort of confuses me about creativity and design And I'm curious about your take because you've been doing this for so long Do you believe that design can be Hot like creativity can be taught or is it something that comes intuitively? I think that That's like that's kind of that's an interesting question. That's a little bit It's it's hard to answer because I don't want to disappoint people But I do believe that There are parts of creativity that are innate There are things that you're born with the way that you look at the world and interpret Your surroundings. I don't think that every part of design is teachable And within the industry you have people that are like highly creative And you have people that are more like technically creative So you have people that are doing like renderings working with Photography, Photoshop, AutoCAD and like there's a lot of creativity in that And then on the other side you have people who are doing more of like the conceptual brain storming and like Putting pencil on paper and like really coming up with the concept for a project that will be like The design like the narrative the language for the whole project. I don't know how much of that Is teachable the process is teachable But the creativity is something I think you're Well, it's something like at the skill that has to be at the very least nurtured over time because it's not an easy skill It is no there's many skills that are practiced But there's like this seed of creativity that I think people are born with When you look when you look at a room You you look at it and you see what it could become is that how you like the lens? Yes, that's a wild lens Yes, so the bottom line I think of what My job is and like what I can bring to a project to somebody's home is that I see what's not there And then I can show you what it can be But when I stand in a room or even on a lot of land because a lot of my clients are also Commercial real estate developers and sometimes we're starting with a whole a muddy hole And you have to see everything and yeah That's difficult. That's very difficult. So it's not just the inside of the space It's the building and like your connection from the outside of the building to the inside of the building. What can be there? Or you know, I do I work with private Private clients Can't talk too much about them because the lot of them are NDA clients, but they're all wonderful people But you know, we start from the ground up. So again, we have a muddy hole Usually and um, you know, you have to just really visualize What can be there? So when I was When I was in high school, I was never into art. I was always into like music and I never I never really got Never got an airquence art. It was very difficult for me. That's okay So when you are growing up and you're thinking about different career options How do you think? This is something that I love doing is it is it like passion does it like manifest in your own House growing up. Are you purposeful about it from a young age? Is it like something that was in your family before like Where's the path that leads you to looking at a muddy hole in the ground and thinking I'm gonna create this entire experience For a multi-billion dollar real estate property. There's a few answers to that question um I have to give my parents a lot of credit my family came from southern Italy uh in colabria. So you know, we were raised in a One one and a half generation in uh into the states household and I don't think that it was really very common for For parents to give their children paints and crayons and pencils and be like yeah go do your thing, you know like Um, so I have to credit them with that I was always creative as a child um, I would always draw portraits of people houses like I was always drawing or painting Doing something and they really nurtured that And when I wanted to go to Pratt which is um in Brooklyn they have a campus in in Denmark also which I also attended Um, you know, my parents like then I think it became reality for them where they were like oh We actually have to pay a lot of money for her to be an artist. Uh-oh And they resisted that a little bit, but I was so persistent with them and so Like determined that they were like okay fine We'll do this and They took out a loan on their house to send me to Pratt Well Because I was so convicted that this is what I needed to do um, I got partially a scholarship for fine art Um, and I went there and you know, you do your foundation year and they expose you to everything They expose you to light and color theory they expose you to Uh figure drawing to sculpture And then you kind of choose your major And I remember walking into the architecture studio and um And interior design industrial design like the more technical and I just had this aha moment where I was like All the lines are straight in here. I love it in here Like there's an order like you can create occupiable art You know what? You know, it's funny. So anybody who's listening to this who is not an artist is like oh my god She's so far down the rabbit hole But it's yeah, but you've asked like this is this is how you know that you're in your like zone of genius I think so I think so as well because I've never looked at a room and thought that And I don't think many people do but that's why you're amazing at what you do So you start to you start like obviously this is very important for your families invested in you um How do you Sort of progress and differentiate yourself through your career so you play at the level that you're at now Um with a lot of intention like there's the creativity part of it which I Think is innate and then there's the practical part of this especially in my industry because if you're a fine artist I mean there's technical aspects to every you know art industry But I think specifically with design and architecture like you have to have a knowledge base of construction of budget of scheduling Um, you know, and then there's the emotional part of it that you layer into that with your clients because the way that we Talk to commercial clients and about commercial projects is vastly different from the way that I would speak to residential clients because For them it's an emotional experience and you're creating the background for their whole life and their family their extended family And when we're talking to commercial developers, you know, we're looking at dollars and cents market Demographics, so you know, what what the market is doing in terms of like where people are moving Um, which is how I wound up here in Miami Oh, so that's that it was it was like looking at some of the portfolio and you were seeing okay This is actually where people are migrating to this is where I want to sort of further my career And this is gonna and you forecast not just where the building's gonna go But the habits of the individuals that are gonna be living in that building and so on and so forth. Okay. Yes Exactly. Well, I had a lot of clients that came down to Miami from New York in 2020 They bought um a lot of land here, so You know, they they were looking at the demographics They were looking at like the flow of population from one city to another and there was you know, there's a lot of Synergy between New York and Miami Miami is basically the sixth borough of New York at this Definitely is yeah, I have been before but now you know even more so Um, so that's I started working on projects Actually started working on projects in Miami in 2007 private homes But they were for New York developers that were coming down here in like flipping houses but then I really planted myself here about two years ago And um now I'm opening up the new office on Miracle Mile and Coral Gables, so we're very excited about that No, I was I'm also curious When you look at your career success Do you think that what's allowed you to break out is more your business acumen or The actual creativity that you apply to a building and I ask this because I think a lot of creatives Have a hard time being highly successful in business But you have seen like you've you've done it obviously So what do you think is the most important aspect or contributor to your success? Do you think it's the fact that you operate at this exceptionally high level what you do But was it that that exposed you to the people that allowed you to build a multi-billion dollar you know 500,000 unit building or Are you like very tactical about how you build out your business your brand your connections? I think it's both Okay, I agree with you I think that there are a lot of people in creative industries that have a hard time with the business aspect When I started in this industry You know 17 years ago. I started working for an architect that was designing commercial real estate buildings so From the creative like right out of school I went into the technical and dealing with these mega large projects is not really typical for interior designers a lot of interior designers will go um into like hospitality or um Private residential design some of them do more like decorating and taking on the design for like these mega projects I think started to Develop and like peak my interest when it comes to the business aspect um I went on to work for a big firm in New York and Then you know the economy crashed in 2008 2009 and that company laid off A lot of people yeah as did many companies did many but they started a new company and I was one of I don't know 20 people that went with them so Watching that happen and understanding How the like really living through it. I mean like coming into the office and It's empty and just kind of like understanding how many people's lives radically shifted how many people's lives were Devastated by this. I think is what started to peak my my real interest in the in the business part of this That's smart. I mean you realize that all these jobs that we thought were so safe are not actually that safe You learned it in 2008 2009 because you were adjacent to the real estate industry A lot of people learned to drink COVID Unfortunately and then again and yeah, yeah, so you that's when you branched it on your own That's when you that's when you started to at least think I need to sort of future proof myself. So it was before that actually it was really yeah I started this uh the studio that I have now um I started my studio in 2018 So after working in a larger firm um we had you know that firm was maybe 180 people's For me it became honestly overwhelming um and I think that When you're you know, maybe this is just me maybe it's me in conjunction with the work mentality in New York Everything is kind of like go-go-go You know, I Maybe wasn't paying enough attention to the little voice in the back of my mind that was saying hey slow down Um and I Listen everybody in New York is go-go-go I think it's hard to have a voice that tells you to chill out when you're in New York. It's a very inspiring city Yes It is it is an inspiring city, but you know, you can kind of get carried away if you If you don't listen to the inst- if you don't listen to your own instincts and you don't listen to your body and your mind and You know if you're not aware of what is actually happening and how it's affecting you That's where things can fall apart Easily for anybody and I think that that's an important lesson that I learned Um because I was really sick. I had a Major medical event that could have like thrown anybody off you know They could have thrown anybody off the rails. I went into renal failure and um It was then that I was I had a major surgery, you know, I came out of that and I was like oh I'm still alive. This is awesome. I didn't know that was gonna happen And then I was like okay, I need to like do my own business so that I can listen to myself and I can listen to my client It's what that we go have to go through these like traumatic life events To like basically set our life up the way that we should have set it up in the first place But I don't think that you get the same appreciation without Without you definitely don't yeah, you definitely okay wait before we go down that path. I have Very nerdy Design questions please ask that I have to ask because what I want to do listen, we're gonna talk about basically All the different things that you've learned over your career and some of the some of the beliefs you hold and I think that's actually gonna Be very important, but I also want to get into the more tactical design things and I hope these questions are good because I was trying to do On what what I'm very far away from this world. So bear with me. You're not though. You're Listen though. You're gonna buy a house. Yeah, I'm gonna buy a house. Yes, but I mean I wouldn't know what to do. I just I For me, it's just I look at a room and I'll try and move things here move things there and it'll take me like 10 times before I can step back and say Oh, that looks okay Versus you see this blank slate and immediately in your head you know exactly where everything's gonna go to a degree to a degree to a degree Still what is what is your Design philosophy like what are the principles that guide how you look at a room and design and Like I only know like art deco maybe as like a design philosophy What would it like so benchmark for people just so they can understand What is design in 2023 2024? How do you look at design? What are things at If people are even like looking for a home like where do they go? What what are the resources they look to? It depends on what kind of home you're looking for like the clients and the like my clients and people that I work with They'll come to me before they start looking for home a lot of the time. Oh, I didn't really so there I just learned something new so that's how you're supposed to do it You're supposed to find that there is no right or wrong. There is no right or wrong. It really depends on You know what you're looking for and how you're how you're looking to do it and how you expect it to be done So you know if you want like say you're looking for a house that is Maybe like a little run down and you want to make it into your own I would be a person that would be probably a good fit to work with because I can look at different properties With you and say okay with this house we can do x, y, and z This is what it will cost you. This is how long it will take This is how much you're gonna have to invest and then I would work with a real estate Agent you know, I a lot of people that I know good friends of mine to say Okay, if my client buys this house and invests this money and the design kind of looks like this like you know What my aesthetic is combined with their you know personal personality um, you know in that What is their sale price on the out and that's how we Search for property. Oh, that's very smart. So it's not just I've bought a house and now I want to make it look nice inside It's this is a fix and flip or this is something like there could be like a very strategic business move and you bring in a Okay, okay, cuz I'm now I'm gonna ask my friends that do these if they have a designer that works at them ahead of time So I think a lot of them Buy the house and then they're like okay, the cap rates good whatever we got it at a deal Like you know, there's a lot of work. We have to put into it But I don't know if they're working with a designer before they actually buy the property Which would be a mistake? Well, no, I mean some some do and some you're very kind by the way I think it is a mistake. No, just like it logically it makes sense It does make sense because then you see the complete picture from somebody that can actually budget it all out right versus just the financials that look good, but I mean you don't understand what the actual quality of the design would be on the back end Right will or the price rather it depends on what you're doing like I have clients who are You know politicians and you know, they very They have a lot of resources. Yeah, basically and they just want what they want um and it needs to be beautiful and they like my Esthetic they like working with me because they know that the job's gonna get done because they know that they're hiring a pretty Type A Gonna get it done to your girl who wound up in Miami Um, you're gonna clean up down here. You're gonna absolutely clean up down here I have a whole other Side side issue with the design that exists in Miami already, but whatever. We'll leave that alone But yes, so you know because I have this background in commercial real estate development I tend to apply it to everything Even when I am working with clients who are like I just want what I want I want to be beautiful and you know, I will take them through the same process How much can you sell this house for in five years in 10 years in 15 years? Um, you know, are we setting up for retirement? Are we setting up for new family like someone like you know Families that are gonna have children and expand are we setting up for You know some like major change of life And what does that look like some people are saying okay, well, I want to buy a house I want to make it look beautiful and then I want to sell it in five years That's very different from somebody who comes to me and says I'm building in a state for my family Of course, yeah, and it will remain in the family So the way that we look at materials and make choices is different very smart so so Bringing it back to like that word design philosophy is there Like a name you put on this philosophy as to how you design a house or is it Well, I would say that my my aesthetic is a warm Is warm and modern, but still classic um, you know, I went to Pratt institute, which is a You know, they train you in traditional techniques at least when I went there um, you know, I think that I got A little bit of a of like an old-school architecture training Which I yeah, which today I totally appreciate um, and then I studied in Copenhagen and You know being there and and learning about how they approach design with a lot of natural materials and natural elements um, I Think that that is very important. So in terms of like the philosophy behind the way I design is We're part of nature Everything that we pull out of the earth will eventually wind up back in the earth one way or another We change right like we change over time we age things change We have kids they grow they change so I like to use natural materials marbles woods metals And materials that you can see came out of nature because over time and with use and through weather conditions and You know when the sun hits the wood floor like they will change color. Mm-hmm. They will change texture Um, you can see the use in that like, you know Say you buy really gorgeous leather couch. It just looks more beautiful over time because you can see the use in it And I don't like to use materials that are Plastic and static because we're not static and design should not be static your space should grow over time with you It seems like there is an over indexing on these like clinical kind of Uh builds. I don't know how to put it. It's like There's so there's so devoid of life and soul and this is I mean I've seen them in condos in Toronto. I see them in some glass boxes down in Miami So it's interesting to me because they're very modern But to your point they look so Excellent. I don't know how to put it So in your in your mind when you look at different design elements I love a Californian style. I mean, California does a really nice job of creating modern plus Classic. Yes, and it's warm. It's warm. Yes Do you find that that style is starting to permeate New York Miami you feel like because of that's the style that I think Miami actually really needs I think it needs more of that modern but classic style Yeah, I mean, I would so What I saw a lot yes, I do I do think that that style is becoming more appreciated I think that you know for a long time we were looking at fake materials that were imitating nature But they don't really imitate nature because again, they're static like you know plastic laminates that look like wood Yes, they're very effective in commercial settings like you know an elevator cabs like of course You know in commercial buildings like yes, there there's a time in a place for these materials and You know, I appreciate that and I respect that and I use them when I have to um But I think that overall especially after covid and people being Now stuck in those spaces and looking at their walls and going oh I'm in a white box. Yeah See that I think that there's a Greater appreciation for these warmer natural materials and warmer palettes that you do see in you know in California Like yeah, you do see that um, and I think that You're you're gonna see it more and more here as well When somebody is designing a space and let's let's Obviously the levels that you play out for commercial are phenomenal But I think that when a lot of people are listening to this they still care about their own personal space and assuming that they're You know creating this beautiful environment inside their house I know that a designer like pulls out elements of a personality in an individual or a family and applies it to a house Can you walk me through that concept of like how you do this And what does that actually mean? So give me like an example of You have a client pick a random client name and name but how would you take that person and their personality And like turn it into an actual environment they can live in Okay, I have a good example of this um, I was Approach to design a house in Connecticut It's a it's a biggest stage about 20,000 square feet. So it's a big one Um, and I was looking at the architectural plans before I met the family and There was a slide That took you from the second the main level of the house down into the lower level and I Said oh these people must be fun Uh, that's amazing. They must be fun. I said oh, yes. I can't wait to meet them So my hunch was correct. They're very fun people Just the most amazingly kind and fun spirited people And so after working with them and getting to like understand their personalities Uh, I'll I'll give you one very specific example um There's a speakeasy and the slide is behind a hidden wall panel. I love this Is this fun and you can slide down um into the bar that's downstairs and you know There's like a little powder room close by and I said oh, we have to find something fun, but still like goes with the aesthetic of the house and I found this beautiful From a distance beautiful wallpaper, but when you get up close You can see that there's monkeys smoking cigarettes In the wallpaper and like little bursiers hanging and like they're drinking vodka And you know, I was just like I know that they'll Open up the door and crack up at this, but still it's a beautiful wallpaper So you do you incorporate elements of the personality into like everything so when people come over When they're just living in the house they recognize elements of themselves. Oh 100% I love and this is this is so this starts to create Like a home out of the environment exactly exactly like we are creating homes from houses and basically just Making space for their lives to happen in a in a way that they will be comfortable for a long time When when is the right point because We have to be cognizant and not everybody has a 20,000 square foot estate of course, so um The other the other side of the spectrum is people that Are getting their first home their first condo just give give advice to those people on How they can still create a home without for example Going to the extreme and doing everything that they can't they probably can't afford What are those things that they should be spending money on like those sort of like those mission critical things That can really change How they view a space So I think you start with the basics if you're buying a home and it's your first home purchase And you really want to make it feel warm and inviting Invest really well in a big comfy sofa that is a neutral color Get the basics in your home in in neutral Colors that are warm earthy white screams tops And and start there if you create that foundation you can layer on top of that And I would always say to stick with natural fibers like if you're going to buy throw blankets buy wool buy linen buy cotton don't buy um fake fabrics you know The more natural materials that you buy the longer they'll last and the nicer they will look You know like people you can really feel those things when you go into a home And another big thing that I I specifically see this in Miami and it drives me bananas Is that the light color temperature in the bulbs then they install in the homes are very blue I wouldn't have ever thought of that very white Well, we're gonna go to your house and I'm gonna check it out. You can yeah, I think yeah Yeah, it's a hundred percent because then it's like no matter what you purchase Even if the color of what you buy even if you buy a beautiful warm top Sofa you put it in that room and you turn the lights on and if the lights are not a warm natural white The color looks crazy. So you never will achieve that That warm that you're looking for I'm sure you deal with this a lot as well, but we are in a culture of like fast fashion and and buying cheap things that end up breaking down when you are sort of Pointy-people in the right direction for sort of setting up their first home. So let's it like we're always Going under the assumption that the people are speaking to have some sort of budget They have to be careful because if it's unlimited budget, then this is a mute point. It doesn't matter but if they do have budget um if you cut corners and You buy very cheap stuff. Obviously that's not going to play out well in the long run. I mean Between I won't name there's a lot of stores. You can buy a lot of cheap design stuff from I mean you can also order it straight from overseas whatever um So let's let's give advice for people where should they go to buy things? What's like the minimum sort of caliber or quality? so They're not cutting corners, but it's not going with the most premium option But at least they can like get started like where would you say this is like don't go below this So Actually, it's a Canadian brand Really? Yes Um, what is it? EQ 3. Oh, I know EQ 3. Yeah, I I think their stuff is beautiful It's all for the most part like natural materials. Yeah Really simple modern, but still classic the price point is not Outrageous. It's really not. It's probably right in line with the you know West Elm and CB2 I think in the past couple of years CB2 has really stepped up their game and You know, you can you can buy your basics at like an EQ 3 Yeah, I love their brand. Everything is is manufacturing. They're not that expensive. They're not that expensive Yeah, I know them, but all of their stuff is manufactured in Canada. So it doesn't have to it's not shipped from overseas. It's It's driven so you don't really have you're not making like a A big carbon. Yeah, you're you know, you're not Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, to the carbon footprint. Yeah, exactly So that's so that's a good place to start then if somebody's trying to start to decorate Yeah, and if you don't want to go to West Elm and like have your house look like a West Elm showroom Go to EQ 3 like I think that their stuff feels a little bit more classic I love that because I think that people Probably get lost after you after you get past like that first iteration of buying things for your first condo And then they don't know where to go next and you can easily spend unlimited amounts of money on things quite quickly And I think a good reliable source of aesthetic design cost quality is is very useful Yeah, oh, I would also recommend our house Was a AR HA US They just carry like a really beautiful beautifully curated collection of pieces that feel a little bit elevated But again the price points are not outrageous. I love this. Okay. No, that's very very good Um, I want to talk about I want to talk about some some of the sort of business lessons that you sort of uncovered throughout your whole life and career so many There's a lot. I know there's a lot. Um, is there any sort of last tips pieces of advice? I mean you can go down the rabbit hole on anything design related, but what would be like one last Sort of bit of wisdom that you would want to pass over to somebody that is looking to create a home out of a house If you hire a designer Listen to the designer That That personal experience is not no I have to say I respect my clients and they respect me But you know when you're when you're getting off your feet in the business like it's hard sometimes for people to Hand the reins over to somebody else especially when they're investing so much time and money like I understand that I really appreciate it But you know if you're gonna work with a designer and and spend the time and the money You should really listen to that designer um and try not to Overstep into their lane because then you create it's like you know sometimes Not now, but maybe a few years ago or maybe a little more than that You know if clients that are like oh, let's cut corners here or let you know cut corners there and I'm like no cutting corners is expensive And cutting corners with designers is expensive Because then you wind up doing things twice you wind up paying for things twice so I would say if you're looking to make a home a home out of a house with a designer Try your best to relinquish power to that designer. We have to trust the process. Yes. Yeah You have to really trust the process and it does take a lot of trust And a lot of that trust building is on me the professional in the room You know when I'm working with residential clients Um, but if we're talking to somebody who's not gonna work with a designer and they want to make Their house feel more homey Definitely take a look at those light bulbs because that will cast the It's such a small thing too It's well, it's not a small thing, but it's like I think that somebody wouldn't intuitively think about Right You're right. I mean I do Yeah, you know, sometimes I walk into people's houses and I'm like oh my god It's like a surgical suite in here. How do you live like that? Well, no because people don't because you don't realize it Yeah, I don't realize it like you know you walk in your room you turn the lights on you're like oh There's light cool. Yeah, and then you keep going, but you don't realize how much the the Lighting and the color temperature in a room can affect your mood um And well, this is one of the things that you talk about too you talk about wellness through design So maybe just speak on on that point so like everyone's everyone who listening to this is thinking okay So yes turns the house into a home personality is reflected in my living space Got to switch the light bulbs to someone and so forth whatever But it talked me about actual wellness. So when you say wellness through design. What does that actually mean for somebody? It means a lot of things so I believe that you know And maybe this gets like a little bit woo-woo, but it's really not like you I'm still there Let's go there Come here for it You know you um We're all living beings right and we absorb What's in our environment whether that's in the air whether that's you know chemical Sending whatever we're sitting on using ingesting and surrounded by We are absorbing so this kind of goes back to my um design philosophy about use of natural materials I believe that if you're in a house or in an environment where you're surrounded only by hard non-porous surfaces like plastics and man-made materials with acrylics and and Resins and you know Chemicals that I can't even pronounce yeah It's not great. Um, I would much rather See anybody living in an environment where the floors are made of actual wood and the countertops are made of actual marble or limestone or You know, well, I don't think it's woo-woo to to say that like your body your skin is the largest organ In your entire body and I mean even the the the soaps you use and the clothes you wear like absolutely everything can permeate your skin Like like it's not like it's not like crazy science like I spent a lot of time in the trends dermal space Everything can permeate your skin. So I think that if you're constantly sitting touching being around these things that are You know made with all these chemicals. Maybe maybe sealed with something that's like a spray or whatever it is I'm sure it's not like great for you Like I I mean it doesn't take a but you don't think about it You're not thinking about it because it's not actively affecting you in like the You know six months that you're Whatever right just but you know like when we're setting up a home for somebody We know that they're gonna live there and like you know, it's like okay We can't like For example You get out of bed in the morning and the first thing that your feet Touch is the floor right The bottom of your feet when they have you know, they're bare and the first material that they touch You don't want that to be a hard porcelain or like a plastic vinyl floor because Your energy It has nowhere to go Also and like this is where the woo woo stuff baby starts to come in You really want to put your feet in the morning on a wood floor So that you know, it's soft you're you're you're waking up in softness you can put your feet on something natural You know everything is about how your energy flows and when you are sleeping The air quality the type of sheets that I buy from my clients where the bed is positioned How the light comes into the room how we control that light you know air filtration systems like all of these things affect us Significantly significant. I mean even you can take it one step further That's why people say you're supposed to go Outside in the morning and walk on grass with your bare feet absolutely It's the same concept right the same concept you're just taking it a step further exactly. It's grounding It's grounding I I don't like putting my feet on hard porcelain in the morning. It feels unnatural I think most people just compensate with a rug or something like that, but it's still not It's not it's not real wood Freight you know, I'm working with a client right now um in sunny isles and He was like I don't want my feet touching anything. That's not a natural fiber. So we put silk carpets on Almost every surface that with like where you would walk or sit yeah So that you know, they weren't touching the hard Floor. I just want to take a second and thank the sponsor of today's episode HubSpot Now the success story podcast is part of the HubSpot podcast network So if you like this show you'll love some of the other shows in their network One of my personal favorites is the hustle daily show It brings you a healthy dose of a reverent offbeat and informative takes on business and tech news And you guessed it every single day some of their recent episodes that were my personal favorites How AI is making fake IDs? How to meet your favorite CEO for a few thousand dollars and also how tiktok is turning into an online mall and starting to replace QVC If you love business if you want to get it daily Let's into the hustle daily show wherever you get your podcast and it's so bad now because I mean And like these these these these like fake materials are so prolific I actually don't remember the last time that I've walked into a house with a real hardwood It's been a long time and I've walked into some nice homes. It's not like no of course And then beautiful. Yeah, but they're expensive too. So it's it's just not You know what? I feel like it's not even um It's like it takes maintenance and it takes work to have real hardwood For like that I mean, yes, obviously that there's realities to like you know Maybe maintenance friendly like it depends on your lifestyle to Um, you know people with like a lot of you know, I have clients that have like you know two or three young kids and and dogs and you know We know so you know, maybe the wood flooring is only on the main level of the house and in the kid You know, like we have to be practical Also, I'm respectful of that but But you have your north star that you're working exactly that's I mean Exactly, and I'll give you I'll give you one very I'll give you an example that um Why it's bad to cut corners and why you should always know where your materials come from I'm not gonna name names because I don't want to get any we haven't named any names on the podcast do that We can easily but we won't Yeah, years ago in New York was an I bought furniture that breaks while I'm assembling it so like I've tried to cut corners before and it doesn't work out. It doesn't work out in the long run. No, I never does um I was working on a big project multi-family development and I Specified I picked out a beautiful marble for the countertop and you know, there's a lot of these countertops and the developer It was like yeah, that's beautiful. We'll find something that you know looks like it, but it is less expensive You know, I was younger and I said okay, you know like I didn't fight I didn't fight to Uh Direct to continue to direct them towards my north star. I you know, I hadn't found my voice yet. Let's say that um So they found this material overseas and they shipped it in and it turned out that Because of the country that it came from and where the material was Uh pulled out of the earth. It was um very high levels of radon were Yes Marble is a natural material. It's mined out of mountains. Yeah, and you have to be careful about where you take it from So what happened they were going to install these countertops that how did you figure this out that it was high in radon It wasn't until later on um It wasn't until later on in the process. I think that there was an article There was something that came out that I saw and I was like reading it. I was like oh wait a minute I think this is where this client was buying this Yeah marble from and then they they had it um checked and it was high in radon And I said okay, well you can't use that and this particular material was bought by other Developers there was a couple of articles about this um, but it never turned into like a very big deal I just happened to know about it because I'm always I'm looking for you. Well you're in this world Yeah But still if a whole if a whole condo if they found out that every I'm assuming that's carcinogenic did some degree. Well, you know, it's dangerous and I'll you know I'll say this about Anybody like you know think about the height of a countertop and what part of what part of abdomen is like up against Course, you know cooking you're standing there at you know These things are things that I'm like very aware of where the materials that I'm specifying like where they come from You know, what's the quality control and you know all of that so like they had to scrap all that material and buy new material You just gave a ton of people a new thing to stress about but cool the point is I don't think every month anyone has ever thought about that, but that's actually a really interesting It's right. It's not like a con Don't you're but it's just something that you know You'd never know what will happen when you try to Cut a corner and go to a resource that is less known. Yeah. Yeah, no very very important. Okay Let's I mean you build an incredible business. You've learned a lot along the way I have you have it and now it's expanding um no, it's done very very well You obviously had a lot of great points a lot of Difficult things that happened to so Where do you want to start? I want to give some lessons over to people that are building their thing and they're looking to you They're looking to you as a mentor and advisor one of the things that you do discuss is that a successful business happened in stages Maybe unpack that a little bit so people can understand that wherever they're at in their process. It's okay Yes, I think that this is an important thing to talk about. I think that You know you hear people who you View as successful say things like Just follow your passion and the money becomes secondary or you know people will say things like You know, don't worry about the money. It'll come like things like that And I I think that's really frustrating for people to hear because then they're like Okay, but what do I do like what's the first step like what what do I do? And that's what I wanted to talk about And I want to be very clear. There's no magic pill There's no overnight like no easy thing. There's a lot of hard things and a lot of difficult things and I think You have to be really comfortable with sitting in uncomfortable In in you just have to be Accepting that uncomfortable things are going to happen and you have to sit with it And then still keep moving forward So what I suggest is to you know reach out to people in your industry that you admire it doesn't have to be like um It doesn't have to be somebody That would intimidate you it could just be somebody who you know, maybe is a few steps further along the line that you want to get some advice from Invite them out for a coffee sit down. I would say Don't like I wouldn't make the point or I didn't when I was doing this to ask for work I was just kind of putting the energy out there and saying hey I'm going to start my own studio and like this is my vision. What do you think? What are your thoughts? And I got all kinds of feedback from different people and I you got work from that to you. I'm assuming I did but I wasn't asking for the work It just came Naturally like you know, I would have a coffee with somebody kind of tell them what I was doing and then a few weeks later I would get another phone call and they'd be like hey a friend of mine Just like bought this house. They're looking for an interior design or do you think you could help them? So like the more you put the energy out there that like this is my passion. This is what I want to do the more that will come back to you I think that you know even when you're starting out No Everyone's looking for that like that one big thing That's going to take them from zero to wherever they need to be And to that point putting the energy out there having hundreds of conversations And taking all these sort of micro steps like you build you start to build and I think that I think that In business getting even from zero to a million dollars in revenue is probably the hardest thing that anybody can do Even zero to a hundred thousand like forget forget a million zero to a hundred thousand is like the hardest thing Yep, because you are learning how to create value exactly for an individual and then find a way to exchange that value for money And then a hundred thousand to a million still very difficult But you'll notice that it's not easy But you'll have this flywheel going as you continue to grow and then I would say a million to five million five million to ten like it starts to become easier and easier It starts to compound. Yes. Um, I think that there's a lot of practice skills that are really difficult and That part can be frustrating like sitting in uncomfortable situations Sitting with fear You know, what do you mean by that sitting with fear sitting with fear You're starting a new business and there's a lot of unknowns You know, a fear doesn't have to be some like major event that's like overwhelming you Fear happens in the every day like I have to call a new accountant I have to get an attorney to set up, you know, my LLC. I have to You know go through all of these steps and it's like if you've never done that before There's a little Element of fear Which I think is in totally normal But that could be overwhelming um if that can be overwhelming Full stop. Yeah, but I think that one of the most important things that like I can say to people is trust your instinct And keep putting one foot in front of the other and Don't ignore your instincts like if it's something more than fear and your instinct is telling you Don't talk to that person don't make that phone call don't pick up the phone Don't send that email Listen to your instincts, but don't let any kernel of fear stop you don't let that be the the thing that stops you from putting If you think it's a good idea if you trust if your god is telling you yeah, of course if somebody's off and walk away Whatever, but that's not fear that's like you said that's your guide And that also is that also is sort of improved over time like your ability to figure out who you should associate with You should work with It was full of shit. Who's not? Yep. Yep. Yeah Another thing that I love that you you speak about often it that energy is currency you just spoke about energy yes, but speak about Energy as a resource Because I think that's also something that entrepreneur struggle with you have a great example So you would rather work with a client who pays you $100 and makes effective decisions Versus a client who pays you $500 drives everyone crazy It common sense that seems to be that seems to make sense, but common senses and common and how many entrepreneurs would take that $500 client and just deal with the BS a lot of them most of them myself included. I mean, I've done it I'm saying this from experience. Yeah, um, you know, it happens to all of us when you're getting started out Somebody comes to you and they're like oh my friend And bought house or buys buying a building or you know, whatever can you do them a favor and then there'll be another project The answer is no The answer is always no because for every 10 Good knows there's an amazing yes And I think that this is also another fear point where like oh my god, should I turn this down should I not do this Don't do anything that you're not comfortable with Just don't do it. It doesn't you know um I've had to eat ramen noodles. You've had to eat ramen noodles. I said I know it ain't like And this is why I want to like focus on this because I think that you know people who are looking You know like watching tiptock or you know, whatever and they're like oh these people are making so much money And like it happened like that. No, it didn't it didn't I had to I had to turn money down To get the client that I really want that really resonates with my philosophy Where I could add value and they could add value and there's mutual respect So I take the client who pays a hundred dollars and is a joy to work with Then the client who's gonna pay me you know huge dollar amount But is gonna suck all of the energy out of me and my staff and my team and everything like it's not worth it No, because you also have to think there's going to be another client after this one as well And what people what entrepreneurs end up doing to get you know like the we just said zero to a hundred thousand It's the most difficult thing to get to because you're proving out this concept they take any and every any job any job They can get their hands on right and then they Can't find the jobs that they should be doing because they're already doing the jobs that they shouldn't be doing exactly And then you're drowning in work that doesn't really resonate with you as a person yeah So then you know even when the good one comes along you're stretched so thin That you can't take the good yes Yeah, you know, and you don't want that to happen either like you want to make sure you have bandwidth to take on The really great projects and did this happen to you when you were did you take on stuff that you shouldn't have taken on absolutely Okay, oh yeah, oh my god Yes, and that you know, that's kind of weird that that's where that's where that that's where that common came from You know you have somebody that comes to you that seems like a really good project You know that they're underpaying You for your work and that in and of itself says a lot about that person where they feel comfortable kind of taking advantage Of a situation Where you're like, oh, you know, maybe this person I can pay them a little less because they're just you know But they're telling yeah, but they're just yeah, yeah, how do you so again when you're starting out For somebody who's a any kind of service provider And you are at the beginning selling your time for money. Yes How do you balance that how do you balance that dynamic because there are people that will pay you a little bit less But it could be in line with what you are what you what the type of work you want to do But they offer you a little bit less because you're newer But you're like listen, this is not a bad client. They're not necessarily taking advantage of me Maybe I haven't like articulated my my value properly yet. How do you respect your value? Well To the point like how do I put this at what points? Do you turn down like lower offers at what point do you feel like you've proven out your value? What are like that that that KPI that you set for yourself where it's like listen I'm starting out, but I'm not going to accept to like work below this threshold um How did you sort of walk through that exercise yourself? I think You just draw a line in the sand and you're like going forward. I'm not taking projects under this amount for this amount work Yeah, I mean at a certain point. Yeah, I did I had to do that because I changed my whole business model But in the beginning Um, I think it's okay to I'm not saying turn down the work That's not you know paying top dollar. I'm saying just take if somebody's going to pay you a little bit less or you're just getting started out And you're not making what you want to make Be very clear about what the boundaries of your services are And hold that boundary You know if you tell somebody I'm going to do this project and I'm going to take a hundred hours Do the hundred hours and then You know, you have to respect the bounding box of what you're charging them for is like you you can't Say I'm going to charge you for a hundred hours and then spend 300 hours on the project and then you've made no money So I would say that it's fine to take on projects where you know, maybe the money isn't quite there yet But if the person you're working with and the project that they want to do resonates with you personally Then that's great because it will just create more opportunities in that same vein and you can build on it As long as it's as long as it's coming from a good place So you know that the person is paying the rate that the market thinks you're worth Exactly not undervaluing with you. They're not taking advantage of you. They're not asking for Like you're not this there's no scope creep Yes, which is very important too because that's also a thing like people ask for this and that I'm sure all the time Sure all the time it really does yeah, especially when you're starting out because you're right even if people don't Even if a customer doesn't intuitively Mean to disrespect you like a customer is a customer so they'll always ask for a little bit more and like as a Early stage entrepreneur where you are actually just trading time for money. It's not like you're selling a product or a Piece of software or you know consumer good. You're selling your time right It's like setting those boundaries respectfully and pushing back on extra work I think it's one of the most important things you can do absolutely But it is so hard because there's like this imposter syndrome that every entrepreneur will always have and it's very tough to say Because you're worried that they're gonna walk away You're worried that they're not gonna do to have a nice referral. They're worried that whatever it is But I think it's very important. It is very important. I don't think I and this is one of those fear points Yeah, that you have to sit with if they walk away They walk away and The chances are that they won't walk away They will respect you as a professional for having a boundary. Mm-hmm. I think that's very important Um, and I wish more entrepreneurs respected their own value their own time Because then you they get into this this really really it talks it place Yeah, but I think it's it's easy to get there when You are not always practicing resiliency like you have to Be comfortable again with fear and being uncomfortable. So this is another point resilience is a skill Yes, so talk to me about that. How do you practice resiliency? It's a mental exercise um It's something that's really difficult to do in the beginning and this is one this is a business Gill this is not like an innate Thing for people because when we're uncomfortable you want to like get out of the situation Yeah, yeah But I think that it's a balance of like listening to your intuition trusting your intuition You know you're okay intuition tells me to do this so I'm gonna do it Even if I'm uncomfortable doing it And you and being able to do that over and over and over and over again Because every day will give you something different. It's not like you're working You know when you work for an employer, there's a lot of stability, right? You know that you're gonna get a paycheck. You know that you have health insurance You you know you know what your benefits are So there's a consistency and a stability that doesn't exist outside of that Working model. You know when you're working for yourself and you're an entrepreneur You don't have that stability. So resiliency is is is a practice skill you have to remind yourself of this Every time something bad bad happens and and say okay that sucked Cool. I'm just gonna keep going So bad things happen to all of us especially entrepreneurs Probably more with me like to admit But you make a good point so good things can come from very bad things. Yes. So Just to inspire maybe some of the audience Pick a story story that you're like you're comfortable sharing pick a story about sort of like a low Like a shit hit the fan moment in your own personal life. I'm sure there's been many but pick one or two whatever But tell me sort of like the the 180 From that particular event that led to something good So I'm not comfortable sharing this And I have fear about it, but I'm gonna do it anyway Because I think absolutely exactly I am practicing resiliency I think it's important for people to hear because I think that one bad things happen and And I think when bad things happen sometimes it's easy To choose to not make a choice It's easier to say I'm a victim Something bad happened to me and it wasn't my fault and now I'm just gonna sit here in purgatory You know and and not take that next step forward So Right before I started my business my left kidney stopped working It was a crazy freak Thing I had a blockage. I was very very sick. I had beavers for I don't know eight months. She's went to So many doctors. Oh no, I was really it was really bad But after like a week you don't go to a doctor. I know I did I went to many doctors They just couldn't figure it out. They couldn't figure out what it was, you know They were like, oh, but you're young and you're healthy And this is so weird and then finally I went to Specialist and they gave me a cat scan and they were like Oh shit your kidney is like Blocked and it's it's not working like this is very very bad. So they You know, but like leading up to this and You know, just you need to be stressed. All right I think that is that a thing that happens. Well, I think that doctors are probably hesitant to be like her kidney Stop working because she was stressed out. Of course. Yes. Okay, Farrow. Nobody's gonna say that, you know But I will tell you that I believe it was from Long-term stress. Yeah, I do I really just chronic over periods of time Something gives exactly like something is gonna give maybe it's not your kidney Maybe you're maybe your tummy hurts like you know like it could be Anything um, but this was like This turned into a medical emergency because when your kidneys are not you know, those are your bodies That's your filter and without the filter You can't absorb nutrients like I was severely deficient in like B12 which affects your vision. I was losing my vision the it was like all uh A cacophony of kidney failure is death Yeah, and you were just Living for eight months with kidney failure. I was it was longer than eight months that this whole process took But yeah, I mean, I was dragging myself and it happened so slowly the problem like it was it was You don't realize when your baseline is being affected over a long period of time It wasn't like an event like one event where you're like oh Surgery, of course, you know, it was it was over a long period of time and um So I finally I wound up at this renal specialist. Thank God this guy saved my life. I had um Da Vinci I think that's the name of the machine the the fancy machine that does microsurgery Well, I think I don't know it that well, but maybe you could be it sounds like a name for a fancy microsurgery I think that's what it is um and they fixed my kidney and my bladder and my ovary So um it was a pretty major yard yes But leading up to that surgery I didn't eat solid food for three weeks I was a mess. I was probably you know half the person I am right now And I think it's really easy and the recovery was The recovery was worse than the yeah, then the surgery It was so bad But cover like a year and a half of your life. Yeah, I was really really sick and I Truthfully When I tell you this in all honesty I thought I was going to die and I thought that I had died And when I woke up from that surgery I was shocked that I was alive really and I don't like I don't tell this to too many People um, but I think it's important for people to hear how bad things can be And how much you can come back from them You know looking at me now you would not know that no of course not no No, of course not and that can sideline your whole like Is a thing When something like that happens it can either sideline your whole career and you can spiral And you can say I lost a year and a half of my life and It's it's very difficult that like these conversations and to sort of like Walk through the two paths to To somebody's having a hard time because you always say like don't be a victim But then they're like don't victim blame like don't like right And I'm like it's not I'm not and you're not but what you're saying is like Please just pause for a second like remove the anger and frustration from your situation And like know that there is light on the other side of a really shitty Horrible life-changing event And you could have gone both ways you could have spiraled you could have not had a great career You could have been stressed out you could have been like why did this happen to me It actually was like lighting a fire under you and you're like well if I'm not dead I guess I'd better make something of myself now. Yeah, exactly I had a moment. I mean don't get me wrong. It's not like I Popped off the operating old woman Tap dancing into my new life that didn't happen. It was you know long um Recovery but but in that That's when I started When I could when I was able to just have like simple phone conversations with people Letting them know like I'm gonna start my own studio. And this is what I want to be focused on and the Response that I got from people was humbling I can't even describe like I After maybe having Over months of time 15 or 20 phone calls just like not telling people that I was sick or anything like that Just saying like hey, you know, I'm gonna start my own business This is this is what you know, this is like my idea. This is what I want to do The response I the gratitude that I felt every day when my phone rang and somebody was like Hey, I'm buying a house or my friend is doing this building or you know, we really need a designer to come in I was hum I seriously humbled I fry I was like I can't even believe What putting that out there like what came back to me? So I think that very good things can happen when bad things happen and I think it's something that somebody who's having a tough time right now If anybody out there is having some like awful life moment where you're like Just Just Put one foot in front of the other even if you can't see where you're going because You don't deserve to spiral like you deserve You know more than that you owe you owe it to yourself I do believe that and it's so difficult to hear like in that moment but The way that I like to sort of structure like this thought is there is always somebody who's had it worse than you Who has achieved more than your wildest dream absolutely like that person exists And it's not easy but it's possible all you need is possible exactly if it's possible it can be done Exactly and I don't you know, it's uncomfortable for me to talk about this and I don't worry too But I think that there's probably a lot of people that You know get sidetracked by things it doesn't have to be a medical event It could be anything maybe you got divorced maybe you know divorced lawsuit bankruptcy medical anything It could be anything this is just you know my personal experience um and I Just made a decision that I wanted to create a business that was more in tune with my self and you know more respectful to My belief system and the structure that I wanted to create and so that I didn't have to like force myself into somebody else's mold um and That's kind of the idea that I've been running with I think that's a great life mantra um So I have a couple questions just like like rapid fire to close it out to get some final insights And we're gonna push people to your social to wherever you want to sell them. Okay cool But is there any last like bits of wisdom that you want to leave the audience with from your experience design entrepreneur life Anything we didn't go into Did I write something there that you're looking at no that I'm not no it's not that at all. I'm just giving you the floor He spoke about everything we spoke about wellness design business stages resilience um Difficult life events Starting a business putting one foot in front of the other energy um One thing that I did we didn't go into this, but this is a theme Yeah, we could do that too, but thank you We got we got we got we got we got the friends sitting off camera that are keeping us keeping us honest um So we can talk about yeah, just very briefly like your experience in Miami and well this actually know This will be like the wrap up because I want to talk about like what your plans are for the future And Miami's part of it obviously But you have an like an exceptional belief in yourself and what I mean by that It's not meant to be like an ego-tistical thing I think it's very important because you have to believe that you're the best for your clients You have to trust that you are why is that important mindset for an entrepreneur Because you're so my clients They have plenty of resources. They could work with any designer in the world They could work with anybody, but they chose to work with me So I have to I am convinced That I'm the best choice for them Um, and I that is also an uncomfortable Um thought to have sometimes because like you said before you mentioned imposter syndrome And that's very real for a lot of people and I think everyone for yeah, I mean for everybody so you know When you have you know you have these moments where you're like I'm running this business and I need an adult to like tell me what to do and then you're like oh I am the adult. I know what to do and then you have to have that like uncomfortable moment with yourself and say no I am the best choice for them. They chose me And when you when you are convicted in this and you you know Like you really know that you are the best choice for your client I think that it allows you to bring the full power of what you're able to do Because you know that they respect you and you can and you respect them and that mutual respect breeds creativity and just You know positive outcomes because everybody's on the same page You're being like in practical terms You are compensated the way that you want to be compensated They are receiving services that they expect and um, you know my hope is that I would always exceed their expectations Because a lot of people don't know what to expect When they first start out working with a design firm Um, you go into every relationship with that mindset. Yeah, I love that So yes, what are your plans? So now you're in Miami. No, I'm in Miami. So what are plans for the city? So Um, my office in New York is in Trebekah and we have a lot of clients in the north east um and you know that office will always Be there. I grew up in Brooklyn. I grew up in New York. So that's you know my my um That's solving grounds. Yeah, that will always be my home Um, but now we're expanding into Miami over the last few years and my husband and I are In the process of relocating. So we'll be we're looking in Coral Gables, which is well, where we're gonna be where you guys are gonna be So that's cool um, I'm opening up a new design studio on Miracle Mile in Coral Gables The first thing that I did was remove the vinyl floors and put wood floors just for you You listen practice what you freeze exactly If you get this plastic in yeah, um, so the plan is to set up permanent shop here in Miami So we'll be based in New York and Miami good cities permanently. Yeah, there's a lot of synergy between the two cities So yeah, and I think that like you said we're just another burrow at this point. Yeah Um Where can people sort of see some of your work connect with you? Where do you want to send people? So um My Instagram is a good place to get a real vibe of like you know my design style It's just it's my name. It's the business name Karen. It'll be in the show. Yeah, it'll all be there. You can find it Um, my website is really great where you can see my work specifically Is that your name dot com? Okay, I'm gonna spray a dot com. Yes Um, and you know Clients who are really interested in working with me should reach out to me directly because a lot of my client as I mentioned our NDA clients so we can't advertise their work for security privacy reasons, you know, they're Political or you know, they they just they don't want people to know where they are what they're doing or what their house looks like or what their house looks like Um, so we don't talk about or advertise those projects But when somebody reaches out to me privately, you know, we show them that work um in a more like secure way. Yeah, make sense Okay, so if you were going to go Maybe look at like the all the lessons you learned over your entire life, which there's been a ton But you had to go tell your 20-year-old self one lesson. What would that lesson be? Um Seriously, like literally what I would tell my 20-year-old self would be to stop being dehydrated What Because when I was Is this a led to the kidney? No, no, it actually maybe I think so no no to a degree. I know I think that my advice would be to take care of your body. Yes, take care of your body more than you are doing it right now That's always good advice because it affects everything the the amount of sleep that you get the kind of food that you eat The way that you treat yourself even mentally like don't say mean things to yourself And you know, I think that it's easy to kind of slip into that, you know You mess up and you're like oh fucking idiot, but don't like try not yeah like try not to am I allowed to curse on you? You can swear as much as you want. Yeah, I have I've been holding it back I think that it's hard. It's easy to be a hard on yourself. So Don't try not to do that um and Take good care of your body because that is how you will be successful like without that foundation. You can't do anything else. Oh And this goes along with that take care of yourself first You know when they you get on an airplane and they're like you have to put your your air thing on the first You're last time before you put on your kid that they care of yourself But that's real. That's a real thing. You know, I see a lot of people who are like I need to help I need to do this I need to like you know You can't spread yourself too thin you have to focus on yourself on what you want even if you feel selfish doing it Because ultimately when you get to a place where you are successful Then you can really help other people you can employ people you can empower them you can educate them like You can't do that if you're spread too thin and if you're you know Not taking care of yourself. I love that When you look at your career and and everything you've accomplished and you sort of look to the future What does success mean to you personally professionally? I would say that success for me professionally would be Only working on projects that really resonate with me personally and working with clients Who respect my design philosophy and who are looking and interested in the idea of wellness through design I love this, but what about personally? What's your success metric for your own life? So for my own life personally Um, I think the two kind of like bleed into each other definitely. Yeah, but um I think that having the time To take care of myself like to sit in the morning and like have my my team be supportive enough We're like I can take the time that I need to prepare myself for my personal life To take those breaks before you come home like not bring that stress into your house If there is any stress, you know, there usually is um to just Be at peace and not to feel rushed all the time which I don't anymore like Now that I have my own business and I can kind of operate the way That I think it should be operated. I don't feel that that like that stress But it took a while to get there. It took a while I've been doing this now 17 years in total from the beginning. So yeah, I love this. Well, okay. I appreciate you a lot I appreciate you Not only talking about the design Elements and sort of like tips for people that are just trying to turn house to a home but I Really really appreciate your thoughtful approach entrepreneurship and building a business and sort of like telling over some of the stories That you got through in your life because they're very very meaningful to people that are just starting out I hope so more than you know like really more than you appreciate you Interviewing me and having me on your podcast and I appreciate that you create this platform To bring you know this message to people. I think that everything you do is so positive and I really love that. I appreciate it. Thank you