Rebecca Zung - Narcissist Negotiation Expert & Bestselling Author | How To Negotiate Your Best Life

Welcome to success story the most useful podcasts in the world. I'm your host Scott D. Cleary the success story podcast is part of the HubSpot podcast network The HubSpot podcast network has other great podcasts like marketing made simple hosted by dr. J. J. Peterson Marketing made simple brings you practical tips to make your marketing easy and more importantly make it work now If any of these topics sound interesting to you, you're going to love his show how to write and deliver captivating speeches How to market yourself into a new job how design can help and potentially hurt your revenue and how to create a social media ad strategy that works If these topics hit home and there are things that you want to learn about go listen to marketing made simple wherever you get your podcasts Today, my guest is Rebecca Zunk. She is a narcissism negotiation expert. She's a popular youtuber with more than 250 Thousand subscribers in the last 18 months. She is a top 1% attorney in the nation. She's been recognized by US news and world report as the best lawyer in America Also, she's been recognized as the legal elite by trend magazine She's recognized by her peers and judiciary as the AV preeminent rated in family law The highest possible rating for an attorney by Martin Dale Hubble She is the author of the best selling books negotiate like you matter as well as breaking free She's a sought after major media contributor her perspectives are in high demand by television and print outlets as she has been featured in or on extra Forbes, Huffington Post, Newsweek Time, Dr. Drew NPR, Good Day, New York and CBS, Los Angeles amongst others She's based in LA. She is continuing to serve through her popular YouTube channel media appearances podcasts articles and on demand programs such as slay your negotiation with a narcissist and breaking free divorce master class So she speaks about and she is the preeminent authority on narcissism negotiation and she is the only lawyer that is currently teaching this over So we spoke about narcissism and how to win a negotiation with a narcissist We spoke about what narcissism is and what it isn't, how to tell if somebody is a narcissist red flags to look for We then walk through her framework her framework is slay that's the acronym she uses to walk through the steps that you have to take when you're trying to successfully negotiate with a narcissist We spoke about persuasion, self-confidence and just general negotiation as well. So some great negotiation lessons for somebody who just wants to learn how to negotiate better or if somebody is unfortunately in a relationship business or personal with a narcissist, how do you manage that relationship so that you can come out on the other end with in a win so you can actually successfully negotiate with a narcissist. So let's jump right into it. This is Rebecca Zhang. She is a narcissism negotiation expert. Hey there. Oh, well, I don't know how far back you want to go, but I am half Chinese and half German. So I always say I have no fun genes whatsoever. It's all very intense. You know, so, you know, I was raised, my dad's Chinese, he's a doctor and my mom's German. And, you know, I was bullied, you know, as a kid for being Chinese, you know, you would think that growing up outside of Washington DC and McLean Virginia that they would have been a little more enlightened, but, you know, they were a lot of people, you know, a lot of kids were like, oh, you know, Chinese, what's going on with that, you know, like, and, you know, so it was, I felt like, I mean, it's not like I had no friends, but there were a lot of people who were not so enlightened about, you know, they would call me a JAP or whatever, which I wasn't even Japanese, I was Chinese, you know, whatever. But, so there was that. And, I felt like, you know, I came into my own in high school, and I felt like when I kind of grew out of being more, it was felt awkward when I was a kid and then when I grew into being a little less awkward and in high school and a little more into my own. I felt more, you know, into myself, but, you know, I still felt like that gangly sort of kid, you know, you always sort of feel like that person, right. And anyway, so I got married young, I got married at 19 the first time and I had three kids, but the time I was 22. And that was my version of rebelling, oh, I'll show you, I'll just drop out of college and get married at 19. And even though I had graduated second in my class from high school, that was what I did. And I ended up divorced, I had finished college, then after I got married and had the kids, but I was teaching inner city elementary school at the time. And, you know, it's like a crazy time in my life, you know, here I was in my 20s, I'm teaching inner city elementary school, I had three little kids, and I ended up divorced. So I was living in Florida by that time and University of Miami had a night program, which they don't even have anymore, but the law school had a night program and I was able to go to law school at night. So, and my ex-husband was a good guy, he would take care of the kids at night. So I would teach school during the day, I would take care of the kids in the afternoon, feed them dinner or take them to soccer, dance, all of the things, then go to law school from like seven to 10 and then study till like two in the morning, get up, go to work, teach school, you know, and do it all again. I mean, I was like super young and I actually met my husband, my current husband in law school, you know, we've been married 20, 21 years now, we have a 19 year old daughter. So, like it was just a crazy time in my life, like I never slept and I don't even know how I got through all that crazy time in my life, but that's what I did. So, that's kind of my origin story, I ended up getting a job out of law school with one of the top family law attorneys in the country, you know, really the top family law firm, because the two lawyers there were great lawyers, but the one was also half Chinese, she also had been divorced, she also had three kids from her first marriage. And we had all these crazy things in common and that's kind of, I felt like the universe was sort of all aligned and, you know, so I've only ever practiced in high net worth divorce and that's sort of how I got started. And then about four years ago, I decided to merge my practice with these other guys and decided to break out and do some other things. And so, since then, you know, I've done a lot of television work, I wrote a couple of books, you know, I was sort of the go to person for like extra team Z, and I was like reporting on, you know, celebrity divorces. And I did a lot of that sort of thing, you know, you can always just see me like if you want to find clips of me talking about like when Miley Cyrus got divorced and things like that, it had a lot of that sort of thing on extra. But so I wrote a book called Breaking Free, a step by step divorce guide, I wrote a book called Negotiate Like You Matter and Robert Shapiro wrote the forward. I have spoken all over the country on negotiation, I was the keynote speaker for the American Bar Association. And throughout all of these different travails, I did a couple of entrepreneurial things and I ended up being in a partnership with a narcissist. And it was absolutely one of the most horrible situations of my life. I wasn't in a law partnership, it was in a different entrepreneurial situation. And so I had that and then my husband and I were dealing with a narcissist in our family as well. So I was never married to a narcissist, but between being in a business partnership with one and having one in our family, it was just awful. And so with all of my diving into studying about narcissism and then all of my experience with negotiating and studying a lot about negotiating and speaking on negotiating, I started to realize, oh, I can actually apply what I'm learning about negotiating. And that's kind of how I started talking about it and started talking about it on YouTube and that's where I am now. So I teach courses on how to negotiate with narcissists and I teach about it on YouTube and that's where I am now. Okay, so let's walk through that. So what do you do when you're negotiating with a narcissist? How do you get the best possible outcome just like from the ground up, starting from scratch? How do you approach that person? Because I'm sure that negotiation, it's a lot more than just the actual conversation. I'm sure there's steps to it too. Yeah. So slay is my methodology and slay stands for strategy, leverage, anticipating and focusing on you and you have to work through all of those steps or you're not going to get anywhere. And you know, I just literally was doing a one on one with a client like a week ago and she first started off with, well, I don't want to be aggressive. And I thought, well, I mean, I literally said right to or well, then you're totally going to be taken advantage of. I mean, you know, because when you're dealing with a narcissist, the very first thing is that, you know, they going back to what I said at the very beginning of this, you have to understand the concept of narcissistic supply. Everything revolves around understanding that they're in this world of survival, this world of that. And so you have to, you can't listen to a regular class on negotiation that you're dealing with two normal people and everybody is going to, you know, come out with some fair outcome. That's not who you're dealing with when you're dealing with a narcissist, you're dealing with the person who literally is in this world of survival. You have to understand that, you know, that this person is going to need to feel like that they're, that they're going to have to survive in order to have some sort of outcome with this thing. So you have to have a strategy around that. Number one, and number two, you have to understand that you are dealing with a person who is in survival mode. So they are going to be aggressive against you. I mean, you know, so you can't go, well, I don't want to be aggressive because they are going to be aggressive. They're going to be. And so you have to have an understanding about all of that. So, you know, you start off by going, okay, you know, first of all, when you're dealing with a narcissist, you're either for them or against them. And when they realize that you're no longer for them, that means you're against them. You can't just go, okay, hey, listen, this isn't working out. Let's just nicely come to a resolution. Let's just, hey, I try to do that myself, by the way, when I was dealing with one in a business situation. I was like, we're going to go in different directions. And, you know, let's just come to a nice conclusion here. And it doesn't, their mind does not work that way. You're either for them or against them. And if you're against them, then you're public enemy number one. And that means that they have to start lining up all their flying monkeys. And they've got to have their army on their side. And it's got to be against you. And, you know, like, this is how they think. And they've got to take you down before they're going to take, you're going to take them down. And so all of that's going to start happening right away. And you're just, if you think, oh, it's all going to be nicey-nice, you're just like naked over there. Because, and by the way, if you, if you start off with giving all kinds of stuff early on, and they're going to see how nice you are, because you gave up all this stuff at the beginning, they don't care. They'll just take all of that. And that just is in the wind. It's taken and gone. So don't give up a whole bunch of stuff at the beginning. Don't assume you're going to win them over. Don't assume that's going to gain you any favor. It's not. It's naive. So if you've identified this person, you've got to get your mind right. So you've got to go into the situation. It will be combative, I guess, situation. It's like it isn't us versus them. You versus them, which is unfortunate, but it's not like the normal person. You mentioned these words. So you have your mindset proper. What's the next step in this negotiation? So you create a strategy. And the first thing you have to do is have a vision as to where you want to go. And so many times people are like, oh, they're focusing on is the other person's bad behavior. They did look what they did and they did that and they did this and they did this and they did that. And I want people to understand that that is just a defense defense defense defense defense defense. And I always say the best football teams, if all you have is a good defense, no one's scoring any points. You have to have a good offense as well. So figure out where it is that you want to go. What's your outcome? So okay, where's your vision? And then create steps on how you're going to get there. That's your strategy. All right. So vision steps on how you're going to get there. So that's your strategy. Next is leverage. What is your leverage? Leverages kind of two parts. First of all, what is the diamond source of supply that is really, really matters to this narcissist? What is the thing that they, you know, what matters most of them as far as how they look? Okay. Because for every narcissist, there's this thing that matters the most to them as far as how they look. How they perceive, like physical or just how they're perceived. No, like who, you know, is it their new source of supply? Is it their employees? Is it their, you know, what world do they live in that they don't want to be exposed to? You know, is it, you know, for example, I had a guy that I represented who was a CEO of a Fortune 10 company and he had been married a long time. He had a pension for, you know, hiring a very high end S courts. He ended up getting her piece. He ended up giving it to his, his wife. She didn't even know that he had been ever cheating, ever until she ended up going to the OBGYN because she had, she didn't know why. She was like developing sores and all the sudden here she has her piece. How did I get her piece when I've never cheated on my husband? And so now all the sudden, you know, she's got this major leverage against him because by the way, I can tell the world that, you know, look at what you did. That's a huge source of leverage like she does not, he did not want the world to know about that, right? So that's something that she could potentially, you know, have filed a civil battery action against him. I mean, she could have filed something in the courts, you know, that said, hey, I want, you know, extra damages for pain and suffering. I want, you know, these are things that he could have potentially been exposed about, right? And instead of doing that, she said, hey, I could do this, but instead of doing this, I want you to just pay me, you know, this amount of money and, you know, we'll do this quietly. And so that was a way that she could kind of use her leverage against the diamond level supply. You understand what I mean by that? I do. It's an uncomfortable thought because it's so aggressive, right? Like it's uncomfortable to think about having to find that piece of leverage against somebody because for most people, no one goes out of their way to try and hurt somebody like at that level. Right? Like that's like, that's an incredible exposure. So you're saying that this is what you mean when you say mindset and you say, be prepared to be aggressive. You're not negotiating with normal people, so you have to come, you know, come to the table with extra ammo. Well, I call it ethically manipulating the manipulator. You have to look to see what is a source of supply that's going to be more important for them to keep, protect or maintain that is going to be, you know, more important for them to protect than the supply that they get from jerking you around. Because that coal level supply, which is jerking you around, they're going to want to keep that too. And that's why those cases never settle because they also enjoy jerking you around. And so part of the jerking you around process is constantly moving the goalposts using the court system as a sword, not giving you the documents, filing unnecessary pleadings. So they drive you through the mud in the court system because they get supply from doing that. And so as long as they can continuously get supply from manipulating you in the court system, they will do that. And that's a source of coal level supply for them. And so if you don't want those cases to last three, four and five years and you spend two, three, four hundred thousand dollars in, in attorneys fees, the only way you're going to be able to put an end to that is to find a source of diamond level supply. I just want to take a second and thank the sponsor of today's episode HubSpot. Now running your own business means uncertainty is everywhere. So wouldn't it be nice to have a CRM platform that just works? A CRM platform that helps you provide a seamless, connected, best-in-class customer experience? For too long, businesses have had to deal with managing point solutions that slow down their teams, frustrate customers, and hit them with hidden fees. HubSpots all in one CRM platform has everything you need to do business, no hidden fees included. With a connected platform that's easy to implement and use, your teams have all the tools and data they need to spend more time on what matters most, creating remarkable customer experiences. Learn how HubSpot can help your business grow better at HubSpot.com. Okay, that makes sense. Next one is anticipating. So in the slave formula, you're talking about anticipating what exactly. Because it seems like with leverage, you're already anticipating that they're going to act a certain way. So what else could you be anticipating in that particular negotiation? Well, I mean, you're anticipating throughout the entire case. So anticipating how they're going to behave, anticipating what they're going to be doing, you want to be two steps ahead of them throughout the entire case. And part of that also is going to be using and understanding how they think and their mindset. So sometimes I tell people to use something that I call bartering, which is, you know, understanding that they need a certain amount of adulation. So if you want to get them to do something for you, go ahead and give them a certain amount of adulation. And hey, you know, can you, you know, if it's a business situation, you know, can you work on the QuickBooks today? You're so much better at it than I am. You're way faster at the program. You know, you know, the program so much better than I do. It'll be done so much more efficiently if you do it than if I do it. You know, something like that. You know, if you want them to do something for you, be prepared to give them some adulation in return. You know, use it to your advantage sometimes. Why is, and then the last piece, the last, the, the why, the why and slay is you. Why is that so important? It seems like it seems, it seems, I'm just, I'm playing devil's advocate. I know that's important, but it seems like it seems like you're, of course, you're focused on you. You're, you know, you want to win, but why is that part of the formula? I, I mean, I, I said, I actually, when I interviewed Bob Proctor and I said you, I said you and your mindset and your position is at least 50% of winning the negotiation. And he actually corrected me and said it's 99% of winning the negotiation. And in a way, I think he's 100% right. I mean, if you don't believe you're going to win, then you're not going to win. I mean, you have to believe you are going to win that negotiation. You're, you know, you and you alone define your value. You tell people what to think. There's so much that goes into that. And, you know, in my courses, I actually teach people about body language. I teach people about embedded commands. I teach people about clothing color and the whole psychology around clothing color. I mean, there's so much that goes into all of that. I mean, and, you know, and I even talk about the hurts levels of your emotions and the levels of anger and how you can actually measure anger versus joy on, on hurts levels. And I mean, there's so much that goes into all of that. But I mean, in my courses, I actually teach people all sorts of, you know, I give like 50 different examples of leverage and how to document. And I mean, there's like, we really like scratch the surface. The whole thing, but, you know, focusing on you, your mindset, your position, and all of that is just so, so, so critical. And okay, so, so good, so fair point. So we're only scratching the surface. So somebody just listening to you and they're in a relationship with somebody and they're like, like, holy shit, like, how am I ever going to, you know, be effective at this negotiation. This person is a horrible person. I don't know what the person is close. I don't know what they mean. I don't know what their posture means. I don't know what the language. I don't know what any of these things mean. I just listened to this. So, like, you didn't, you didn't start with this. You went through like legal training and then like, you've gone through like this whole gamut of stuff. So how does somebody, how does like the layman, how does the average person, like sort of fast forward so that they can deal with these situations and feel confident and persuade and influence and negotiate. Like, what's the, what's the easiest way? What did you do? Like, or what, what would somebody do who isn't like a classically trained negotiator? Well, I mean, they can start by getting, I have a free Crush My Negotiation prep worksheet, which is 15 pages. It's an ebook, which like people can get it when my negotiation.com. I've had people win their entire negotiations just on that, by the way. So they can get that. But I mean, they're so, you know, many different things that, you know, people can do just, I mean, it goes subscribe to my channel. I have like thousands and thousands of videos right there on my YouTube that are totally free, by the way. You know, I mean, I think they, you know, there's, this is why I do what I do. This is why I'm out there teaching people. I have such a passion for making sure that people have this information and have it in their hands so that they don't have to go and spend thousands and thousands of dollars in, you know, attorney's fees. And 99% of lawyers, by the way, don't understand narcissism. And that's why, you know, people, people can spend thousands of dollars on lawyers and still not end up where they want to go. You know, and that's why I'm out here, you know, on this mission, I'm on a crusade. I'm so passionate about this. You know, were you, were you ever naturally gifted or is this something that you've just learned, persuading the ocean? I just learned it. I mean, I had to teach myself all this stuff. That's why I, I got to take advantage of narcissism myself. Are you kidding? Yeah. No, just, just, you know, the point, the point is like, if somebody's in the situation and listening to it, like, obviously, it's super unfortunate, but like, there is like a light at the end of the tunnel. If you're 100%. Yeah. And I always say, I never leave my thoughts unsupervised, by the way. I'm listening to like all kinds of motivational stuff all the time, because, you know, I have to make sure that I keep my mind in the right place. Okay, good. All right. So I'm going to pull it some, some rapid fire, career insights from you, but before we pivot, where do you want people to go? All your website, your social, all the links, where people should go check you out, go find more of your content, all of that. So my YouTube is YouTube.com forward slash Rebecca Zung ESQ. And then my Instagram is Rebecca Zung. I Facebook is Facebook.com Rebecca Zung. And I, you know, those are the really the main things. And then I do have the free Crush My Negotiation prep worksheet, which is at winmynegotiation.com. Okay. Perfect. All right. Let's do a cup of rapid fire. And those will all go in the show notes too. So, so a couple rapid fire. So biggest challenge you've had in your life. What was that challenge? And how did you overcome it? Oh gosh, I would definitely have to say it was, you know, being divorced, three kids going to law school at night and all of that and no sleep. And, you know, I don't know. I think it was just one step at a time. And I just think it was just knowing that I wanted to feed my kids and put a roof over their head and survive for them and give them a better life. And, you know, it's everything has always been for my kids. It's a good, it's a good thing to drive you. That's, that's important. Yeah. Important. If you had to choose one person in your life is obviously been many, but pick one person in your life who's had a huge impact on your life. Who was that? And what did they teach you? Totally my dad. And just the importance of family and education. Amazing. Your favorite podcast, book, audible, pick one that you've, that's impacted your life. What was it? And how did it impact you? Oh, you know, when you said that, I guess, you know, the first person that came to mind was Gary Zookoff. I don't know. I mean, I just, I love his teachings and, you know, it just meeting him in person was amazing. And I loved the fact that he was the same in person as he was in his books. And then, and then I also reached out to him to do an interview recently to promote his book. And he said, yes. And he just has always been such an authentic and approachable person. Amazing. If you could tell your 20 year old self one thing, what would it be? Oh, it's all going to be okay and just stop worrying. And then last question, what is success mean to you? I'm raising a family of good kids who are happy and, and fulfilled.