Casey Hill, Head of Growth at Bonjoro | Using Video To Close More Deals

The only podcast you need for your business, let's do this. Welcome to the sales versus marketing podcast, I'm your host Scott. Join me as we explore and demystify the latest trends, technologies and strategies used to achieve massive growth in 10X businesses. I'll be sitting down with sales, marketing and business leaders. The second, what's work for them, the spell myths and deliver actionable insights that you can use to ensure repeatable, sustainable and predictable revenue in your business. Thanks again for joining the sales versus marketing podcast. I'm your host Scott and today I'm going to be sitting down with Casey Hill, who is the growth manager, Ependero. Casey has a really, really impressive background in all things SaaS. So he has moved from individual contributor to sales director and under four years at a previous company, Entrepreneur Port. He has received a print recognition in the Entrepreneur magazine as a rising star and has been the recipient of a rising star scholarship, the SaaSter in 2020. He's a top 10 writer on Cora for SaaS marketing, SaaS sales, SaaS startups and just SaaS in general. He has founded his own company, a tabletop card game, which was 800% funded on Kickstarter. So he is an entrepreneur at heart. He sold thousands of copies of his own game globally. He's been working with all sizes of business from mom and pop shops to brand, household brand names such as BMW, L'Oreal. He runs his own blog on the side. He manages a ton of different marketing campaigns, both in an external service company for SaaS products. And he's really just been overall a contributor and an expert on all things SaaS, sales marketing. He's been featured in over 100 and has written as well for over 100 publications, including Associated Press, Citibank, Entrepreneur, Business Insider, Forbes and DataBox. And he's like, I'm very excited to speak with Casey because he's speaking about, he's speaking about obviously marketing and sales in SaaS. But he's speaking about more importantly video and I'm a big fan of video. I put out a lot of video on my own social and whenever I work in organizations, I've always found that video is one of the most powerful tools to sell, to prospect, to engage and to really connect in a digital era where I think a lot of people rely heavily on email and we lose unfortunately that personal connection. So I'm going to let Casey reintroduce himself and his company and then we're going to go from there. Awesome. Scott, thanks so much for having me on. I'm excited to chat about video and then kind of the changing landscape in both marketing and sales and some of the trends that we see happening in 2020. So I'm looking forward to it. The company, Bondoro, just as like a really quick note for what that is, is basically a personalized video messaging platform and to give kind of an example to make this kind of clear how it might work, say someone comes onto your website as a business owner and they either book a demo or they fill out your inquiry form, right? For most businesses, what might happen is they might get like an email notification or that person might be brought into their database or their CRM system, right? But what we do is we'll actually be able to, we have an app on the phone, it'll actually send that request directly to your phone and so I'll get a request that says, hey, Scott wrote in an inquiry, this is what he said, this is his role, this is his background and right there in real time, I can basically flip on that recorder and I can respond and build that initial human connection with that person and it's tied in and works with your existing tech stack, which that's one of the really important things for us. We see, you know, there's a lot of video tools out there, but we think one of the things is really unique about Bon Joro is that we're working directly in with the person's email tool, website form, CRM, so it really kind of goes with the flow of what we think modern businesses and modern businesses, you're on the fly, you oftentimes are working from your phone, you're out in the field, you're meeting with clients and so we're really trying to make that as turnkey as possible, so that's Bon Joro in a quick nutshell. So there's so many, there's so many really strong points as to why that could be effective because outside of just like the instantaneous sense of the interaction, I personally, I respond better to sales reps who call me right away, if I submit a lead and they're calling me within five minutes, for me that feels like they really care, so this is taking it a step further than that, and you're having that live face to face interaction almost instantly, the second somebody shows interest. So that's, that's a really, really strong, it's a really strong plan, obviously like you mentioned, the integration is key because for any tech or SaaS or whatever company to, to really work, that's to work with the sales reps, lifestyle, the company, the customer, all that sort of has to be congruent. But I'll get into, I'll get into more about Bon Joro video and all that. I want to first sort of introduce yourself a little bit more, like what's your origin story, where did you come from, what's your background, how did you end up here, you have a whole bunch of, you know, you're obviously a well-rounded person in terms of SaaS and understanding how, how to best market and sell it, but you're also like an entrepreneur at heart. So tell me sort of your career progression and how you came to Bon Joro. Yeah, absolutely. So my name's Casey Hill, 29. I've kind of grown up my entire life in California. So it was raised here, went to school in California, went to college in California. I come from kind of a long lineage of entrepreneurs. So my dad has run multiple businesses, my grandpa ran a business, my cousin runs a business. And so from a young age, I was definitely encouraged to take risks, to go out there and just test stuff out and to kind of iterate. And also it's interesting, reflecting back now, throughout the course of my life, now I've worked with thousands of businesses. So I now have a lot of a broader perspective of entrepreneurship and business. And what I find is interesting is that, you know, the more that I've kind of delved into SaaS and software companies and founders and their stories, I found that there's this very high, I mean, the best way to say it is intensity. People are very push, push, go. And it's interesting when I reflect back on my own experience, because I think it was really impactful on me that, you know, when I grew up, my dad ran an electronic packaging company. That was essentially, like, circuit boards and such. And he was super successful, but it was a small business, you know, he had 10 to 15 employees. He was back every day by 5 o'clock and hanging out with our family and it was very balanced, which I, you know, kind of took for granted when I was younger. And now, as I get older, I realize that that's not the norm, right? I think being more unbalanced is typically what you see more commonly. So I think I've come to really appreciate how you kind of have to make a conscious choice in entrepreneurship to create the lifestyle that you want to create. And because there's no clocking out time, like there is, right? And in a standard 9 to 5 job, you are responsible for kind of creating that balance. So I bring up that story just because it was something that I think was really impactful on kind of how I view entrepreneurship and kind of how I view that whole thing. But yeah, so I kind of grew up and I was testing ideas. And my first kind of real, I guess, quote unquote, foray into entrepreneurship is I was in college and I was actually buying and selling trading cards just as a way to kind of offset some of my tuition costs. The side hustle is real, right? Yeah, exactly, total side hustle. And I decided, I said, you know what? I'm going to write, I figured out how to get connected with whole sellers. And I said, this information might be valuable to people. So I'm going to write an e-guide about how to do it. And so I wrote a five page PDF that I wrote over the course of one night. And suddenly that went on to start, I literally was selling hundreds and hundreds of copies. I started at 99 cents. I took it to $15. I was still selling. I mean, I was making thousands and thousands of dollars from sending someone a five page PDF. And that kind of opened my eyes. I said, wow, like there's a lot of interesting opportunities in the modern economy, things that, you know, in my parents' generation, they're just kind of like, you know, whoa, they didn't even know that was a thing. And so I think that was a really interesting first experience to kind of get my feet wet. And then at that same time, when I was going to school up in Berkeley, UC Berkeley where I went to college, I also went to college. I also started to intern at technology companies, many of which have, you know, tech validate was one of my first companies that then got acquired by SurveyMonkey, which is a pretty well-known name. But that really got me interested in this idea of scale. You know, one of the reasons why I really like software is this concept that we can influence a lot of people on a global level with relatively small teams sometimes, right? Yeah. That's where I think I really got that side of my interest. You know, I have kind of my entrepreneurial side. And then there's this other component, which has always been really interested in technology and kind of scalable and also what's new and what's coming next. And so, you know, that's a little bit of a background around kind of some of the history. Why are you crazy enough to work in a startup? Yeah. Yeah. No, because you mentioned, you mentioned, you know, you do a couple of things because when we first started chatting before the start, I asked like, what is a growth manager do? And in the startup, like, I'm well aware, it's like a lot. It's like it's sales, it's marketing, it's customer success, it's, there's a variety of different departments that you probably feel those shoes with. So it's a great experience, but it's also like, you know, I think the experience that you had with your with your father, like being able to sort of manage his lifestyle properly. I think that you have to take that experience when, even if you're not a founder CEO, I think you still have to be very careful because when there's always something to do and you may be like that bottleneck to do it, it's very easy to be connected and work, you know, 9, 10, 11, 12 plus hours a day. And that can be harmful long term 100% and I totally agree with that and I also think that's one of the reasons to why I'm a huge proponent of, I think, like, passion is super important. So, you know, one of the things that you noted at the top of the show was that I launched a tabletop gaming business and I did that while I was also working full time and people were like, you know, how did you get that off the ground while still working full time? And I think that the reason that was possible, even though it was a ton of hours is because I really enjoyed, you know, the art direction, I really enjoyed doing the demos and going to these stores and meeting, you know, fans and customers face to face. I enjoyed getting out and talking about that product and so in a way it was work and I was learning a ton about shipping and fulfillment and logistics and all of these crucial, you know, business skills, but it was also something that I really enjoyed and I looked forward to. And so I think that's also something that's super critical is the more that you're connected to the type of work you're doing, that also makes it so that, you know, I had the ability to work on stuff that wasn't quite as I guess maybe the right word is like, you know, draining or exhausting because of that personal connection to it. You know, that makes sense and I think that's important to really get behind what you're passionate about because then it doesn't really feel like work and it's not, it's not, it's not going to, it's not going to wear you down to the same extent, right? Right. So what are you doing? What are you doing at the banjo right now? Yeah, so yeah, so I'm doing, I'm doing growth and as you said, that kind of encompasses a handful of things. So at the top of the funnel, it's a lot of outreach exposure. So whether that's PPC, so like paid campaigns, Facebook, whether that's community curation on social. So, you know, basically designing the graphics and getting the team together to put out, you know, messaging on our social channels, whether that's getting connected in with journalists outlets and getting basically people's attention on like, here's this thing. So the earned media side is something I definitely do. And then also one of my favorite things I do is, is actual writing of content itself. I love to write content pieces and so I do a lot of, you know, guest collaborations on other people's blogs. I write a lot for our blog, I write for our social channels. I think storytelling is something that really means a lot to me and I think one of the reasons why I've kind of narrowed in especially on marketing. I still really like both sales and marketing for different reasons, but one of the reasons why I've accentuated more in on marketing is because I just love that storytelling component and that really kind of aligned with what I was able to do with Bon Doro as a startup. So that's kind of some of the work I'm doing for that team right now. No, that makes that makes a lot of sense. And I think that you're aware and it's that you have to be able to tell a story when you don't have, when you don't have that brand, that years old brand behind you and you are sort of, that's very important because you're connecting the dots for the customers, you're helping them understand what value you bring to the table. And of course, every company should be doing this anyways, but I mean, when you call them, you're not a logo they recognize. So the importance of a story is, is that much more, but so that's very good. So tell me more about Bon Doro, what's the story of the actual company? Where did this, the genesis of the idea, the founders that kind of thing? Yeah, 100%. So we're a new company founded in 2017, kind of came onto the stage and the way it was sounded is pretty interesting. So our founder actually ran another company, a video survey company called Verbate. And with that company, essentially the idea was you send out, you know, survey questions and people were actually recording responses to those and are really interesting and I think kind of unique business, kind of on the market. But with that video technology, sometimes we would use that video technology just to send personal videos out to customers when we were corresponding and we started getting tons of feedback from our Verbate customers that were like, we love this, like if you ever make this into a product like we will be the first ones in mind, like we really like the ability to send video and have it be so simple and turnkey. And so then the founder kind of started thinking, okay, like I could turn this into a full blown thing. And so that's what we did. We created Bon Doro and we built this apparatus to easily send out personal video. And it's kind of been this growing and evolving thing we've been exploring different niches. Right now we work a lot with marketing agencies, with SaaS software companies, with charities, sales teams, but I think it's continuing to grow. We're very responsive to our customer base and so we're continuing to kind of like learn from them. And we're also constantly learning new use cases from them, which is awesome. I love that just yesterday I was working with a pretty big name charity and they were like, Casey, this would be killer for radio stations. You've got to get connected into radio stations and that hadn't even been on my radar. So this is whole new thing. So that's why it's really cool to kind of have and be a part of this community that we're building is because you're constantly seeing kind of new applications, both in terms of industries as well as ways that you can uniquely use it to kind of get companies and customers connected in kind of a new way, which is kind of at the heart of what we're trying to do with video. And do you find that like what is the feedback from people that have been using Bon Doro so far? Like do they, do they notice an immediate ROI? Do they notice like what, what are they, what are their customers saying about the new, because I don't know anything like this and I don't know any other competitor to be quite honest. It does anything like this. Maybe you, maybe you do, but I've never seen anything like this before. Yeah. Yeah. So, so there is a few players in the video space, but like I was kind of mentioning earlier, I think that the integrated component is something that really differentiates and makes kind of Bon Doro stand out. And we've had, I mean, amazing feedback to be frank, I mean, a net promoter score, I don't know if you've ever talked on the show or if you're familiar with that, but we're at like a 72 net promoter score, which I think is quite strong. Customers are happy. I think that inherently the type of business that it is, I think kind of produces a lot of customer evangelism around it, but also kind of going specifically to your question of what results are people seeing. I think there's a lot of areas where it can kind of enhance things. So one of the first ways people are using it is to just get more sales conversions. And what I love about the way that we're set up, I am a big fan of what I call tangible testing. And so what tangible testing essentially is, is I say, look at right now, you say, get in a month, you get a hundred inquiries that come in or a hundred book demos or whatever your metrics, right? And I just tell people, I say, I want you to do half of them the exact way you're doing it right now. And then for anything, just keep your process identical. And then for half of them, I want you to send out these videos. I want you to record how long it takes you to send out each of these might be, you know, 45 seconds, minute and a half, you know, on average. So record how long it takes you to send out that personal video. And then see how many more conversions come from that, right? And if at the end of, and you have a trial with our software, so it's like at the end of the trial, like, what are the results? And so what I love is that usually if we can just get people to that point, then it's like the conversion rate is incredibly high because it's very, very concrete. It's like, hey, we converted four more customers. And you know, it took us whatever amount of hours, like that was clearly worth it. Awesome. Let's go here. And so because of the way we're structured, and I think because of the way we're allowed to kind of remove that barrier of entry by just letting people say, hey, try this out. That's awesome. And we also use it, I mean, it's, it's used heavily on the conversion phase, but another big part is the retention and kind of like customer delight phase after. So another big place that people are using this is like asking for reviews, right? Like for the average company, when they send out their bulk automated emails saying like, please leave us a review, how many of those actually convert, you know, for a lot of companies, the rates aren't great. So if you can, you know, double triple 10X, the amount of people that are leaving reviews, that's another very concrete piece of value that companies can get. So we're, we're kind of using it in a lot of different senses, but, but definitely in terms of getting engagement and engagement of video overall as a medium, I mean, it's dramatically higher than standard text email and, and there's a number of reasons for that. So, so one, without going to day on the Capitol, my, my background is in, inbound marketing and automated email system. So I know that field pretty well. One of the hurdles that you can sometimes get into at volume is you start to get things landing in things like the promotions folder and Gmail, right? And even very good companies fall into that problem. I mean, it's just that's these ISPs, the inboxes are just very strict. Well, when you're recording a one off email, you don't have that problem, right? So one off emails don't land in promotions by the nature of what they are. So what that means is that, you know, those times when people are missing some of your four responses, you cut that out. And so that's another thing that's going to greatly enhance open rates. So from a number of angles, it's really helping on that engagement side. That's really, I really like the, I really like, I really like how it works. That's, are there, are there other competitors that are in the space that you sort of benchmark against? Or is this really like a blue ocean for, for your company? Yeah, I mean, so there definitely is a number of other players in the space. So there's a company called Vidyard, there's a company called Bombon, those are two other people that are doing, those are similar type, type, those are similar, yeah, they're similar type companies. And I think that, you know, one of the things that were really focused on is this concept of saying, you know, the more that we can make this turnkey and simple and the more that we can make it kind of like go in the workflow of the business, the more results are going to see because another thing that's really important to note is that, you know, we work with businesses of all sizes, but our kind of bread and butter is small, the midsize businesses. And so with small to midsize businesses, we realize that, you know, they don't have a lot of time to learn new stuff. Yeah, so it can have, it can have all the features in the world, but if it's not simple, it doesn't matter. So, so that's a huge focus of where we're at as a company is, how do we make this just as easy and as seamless for people to pick up as we can? And so I think that's why we're so focused on integration, that's why we're so focused on the mobile application so that it's really, you know, going with you and when someone, you know, responds back, you can get that notification directly to your phone and having it come out as travel as you go. Can you, can you, because I know you mentioned it briefly, but I really want to lay it out. Can you walk us through like the interaction from a customer landing, like like step by step, how, how they would actually land on the page to middle lead and then what the actual sales would do just one more time. I just want to make sure that I, I think I understand it because I've used Vidyard before. I've tried it out and I don't think there's any mobile application from what I'm aware of. I think you're just recording video and then you're using it as part of your email sequence. So I kind of want to know and differentiate like what you do. You mentioned integrations and then user experience and whatnot, so go, go through that. Yeah, 100%. So, so let's say as an example, let's say that you use a CRM, like maybe use HubSpotter or something like that, right? As you're back at it. And on your website, you have a form and on that form, someone can book a call with you. Look like a, let's say book a demonstration. And so they fill that out and let me fill that out. They maybe give you a couple pieces of information behind it. So besides giving you their name, they maybe tell you their industry, they maybe tell you one of their cheap pain points or what they're trying to do and then hit submit on that form. So what's going to happen is that person gets pulled into your database system, HubSpotter, whatever else. And what also happens is you have a Bonjour app. On that Bonjour app, it's automatically through our integration with that other system. It's automatically going to pop up and it's going to say, hey, you have a video to record for Scott again as an example. But what it's also doing, and this is a really important part, is it's also bringing that data that you have from the CRM to have it right in front of you. So I not only know that Scott, but I know it's Scott that's from this industry that has this specific problem is looking to do this. So the idea is that it's not a situation where you're having to go, okay, I got this new inquiry. Now I'm going to log into my CRM. Now I'm going to check this record. Now I'm going to get the data. It's like, no, it's right there in front of you so I can glance down. I can look at that and then click record and say, hey, we work with a lot of video production companies. It's so awesome that you write it into us. Based on what you're trying to do, normally what we see people doing is X, Y, Z, that's what we're actually going to be covering in the demonstration. Just wanted to reach out and say, hey, I'm really looking forward to this. And so that's kind of this shift in the interaction. And I think one of the things that is really powerful with that is kind of the trust element. So one of the things I love about video, and this is something that text can't deliver, is that video has voice reflection, it has tone, it has body language, it has all of these things that produce a different type of connection with the person. And so I think that's one of the areas that I love about it. And then I think really helps these sales teams because as we all know, anyone who's been in sales trust is huge. It's like you're most coveted thing. Yeah, it's pretty much the most important thing in sales. If you don't have trust, you don't sell. Exactly. Exactly. So anything that we can do to help accelerate that I think is phenomenal. And one of the things I also really appreciate about personal video is that it makes it really easy to, I always tell people, you don't need any special pedigree or any special background to excel with personal video because it's all about you just being authentic and you building that familiarity and similarity with people. And so that's I think the kind of cool, unique thing about it is you don't have to have some sort of more developed setup that you might need in standard video. With this, it's all about like you just getting your personality across, not instant. So I really appreciate that. So there's a lot of, there's a lot of reasons why people don't adopt a video because I don't think there's a single metric out there that speaks to video being a poor sales tactic or strategy or you shouldn't put up video. So if all these stats, because it's really not hard to find a quick Google search, it will show you how videos more effective it converts more. It engages more. There's more impressions. There's more interaction, whatever your KPI or your metric is, video does it at a bigger better, to a greater extent than just text or whatever or calling or email. Why would people not be adopting video for sales if there's so many stats or data points that are sort of backing it up? Yeah, that's a really great question. So there's a couple of major reasons that I see reservations around video. So one of the first biggest reservations that I hear is just kind of from a email, that people are uncomfortable getting down a camera, right? People feel like they're like, oh, I'm worried about how I look, I'm worried about how I come across. And so I think there, and that kind of goes back to what I was just saying about not needing to have any category and about the authenticity. I always try to stress with people that you're using this in a business context, not in a social context, right? Like this isn't dating, this isn't whatever, it's just about you getting across yourself and your personality and you don't need to be hyper polished to do that, right? In fact, I think when you are going across and recording a personal video and say a friend walks by and you wave to him or something, I think that actually enhances it, right? Because it makes you feel like you're just a person, you're like them. You're not like some distant thing. And so it's trying to get yourself, and I think one of the other things you realize with sales is we try to remove ourselves from feeling like a sales interaction. You're a consultant, you're there to help them, you're there to provide value. And in my experience, the best sales people are people that are genuinely there to provide value and to enhance the knowledge around something. And so I think that, again, is part of the humanizing, you know, I think it's so easy in our modern society to forget that there's a human being on the other side of the economy. So I think that's one thing it's doing. Another thing that I think is a common reservation is people basically say, yeah, this seems nice, but what about scalability, right? How is this going to scale? You know, what if I have, you know, whatever someone might say, you know, I have a hundred inquiries coming in, like, how am I going to scale this up? And that's an interesting question, because I have kind of two sides of how I view that question. So one side is to talk about, you know, hey, well, we integrate like this, so it makes it this much more turnkey and, you know, we have features like roll up. So if you want to, you can send out ten at once, and I'm tempted to kind of go down the route of directly explaining that, but I think that there's something, I kind of, when I start to go down that path, I also take a step back and I say, I believe very strongly in the concept of, you know, some people, I was watching a TED Talk on this, they call it true fans. And basically the idea is, say that every month you got one true fan, and that one true fan just recruits one more true fan. And these people don't churn, and they just keep expanding and adding new people. And I think what you find is that by building one true fan, if you just do the math, right, you go two, four, eight, 60, 32, 64, very quickly, you start to create this network of very loyal, high referring people. So suddenly, what felt like it was very non-scalable, you suddenly are taking a step back and saying, wow, I spent a minute and a half to send this video that's now responsible for, right, you do the math out 5,000 of these relationships that comes down the line. And so I think that the more, in my eyes, kind of like honest answer to the scalability thing is, when you start to build those, that kind of impact, then the business revenue that you should receive in return just means higher more people to send video, right, like, bring on a larger team, like that should be to me in a way how it scales. I think, I think you made a very good point about the true fan component. I would take it a step further. I think that our obsession with scalability, which really is just reaching out to massive amounts of people, throwing shit out of wall and hope that something sticks, is a testament to our inability to create authentic connections. And that sort of, that's flowing up the entire, the entire sales chain. So if you don't train somebody how to build authentic connections or really target a proper persona and you're just saying, go sell, then they're going to try and hit as many people as possible. And the second you have a component that is less, less automated and more, more authentic, well now if you don't know who you're targeting, that's a very scary thing because you don't waste your time and your energy and your resources. But if you are, if you do have that, and hopefully you do have the support of an organization that helps you find your proper buyer persona, helps you really know who you're targeting and you're not just hitting, you know, 1,000, 1,500, 2,000 people a day and hoping that somebody comes back to you, then this isn't such a daunting technology anymore. Now it's just like a tool that sort of accentuates what you're already doing. But I think that a lot of organizations, I don't think that a lot of organizations know how to train sales people properly. I think that a lot of organizations, especially smaller ones, may not have the skills such as the capability to map out a true persona. And they're really just trying to, they're saying, you know, they're throwing a phone book out of sales rep and say, go sell. And if you don't give them the training, then what are they going to do? They're just going to try and hit as many people as possible. So I couldn't agree more. And it's been something that's been very imbued in my philosophy when I directed the sales team, was just a really change not. I had my focus, was very heavily around mating my team, the best experts in our industry as possible. And I was like, I want our people to understand small business better than anyone else who's selling inbound marketing technology. And if we can do that, if we can have people on our team that are 10x as knowledgeable, then we're going to win more accounts because we're adding more value in that interaction. So that's hugely important. I think that's a 100% degree that one of the huge mistakes that I see is there's so much kind of people, so many people are trying to obsess about how many, how many touch points and how many this, this, this, and it's not to say that you shouldn't have processes. I do believe that you do need to have processes in place. But I think that it can't come at the, like you're saying, it can't come instead of really investing in and building the authentic relationships. And you get to that point where the volume becomes something that's suppressing that, then people not only are they not generating results, but they're also burnt out. They're not excited. Because that's the other thing that I think is really important is that salespeople by large are very results driven. That's kind of how we're wired. It's like, you want to get that commission, you want to get that successful result. And so going back to a tool like this, it's like, if you can show someone, hey, use this, and you're going to get 20% more results, most salespeople are like, okay, like, let's, yeah, I think it's that intersection of process. And authenticity, that's where you will be the most successful at sales. Because you're right, you can't ignore process, you have to, you know, on a big fan of activity based sales management where you know what you have to do, how many calls, how many emails you have to send, sort of like to get to the end result that you want to achieve. But you have to do it purposefully, and you can't just do it at hawk, because if you're doing it at hawk, I really do believe that you'll burn out. And this is a whole larger discussion than what we're talking about now, but it's, yeah, it's important. It is very important. So, so where are we now? So let's just, so anything else about like Bunger, Bungero, and in particular that you wanted to bring up, while we're still sort of speaking about video and the company. Usually before, before I close these off, it was being for a little bit, like sort of pull out some life lessons that, like sort of you've, like you've learned over your career. So let's sort of close off the video piece and the Bungero piece, but I want to sort of like give you the floor for, you know, future projects, you know, what you're excited about where the company's going, or if there's even like some other talking points about video go for. Yeah, yeah, no, I mean, I think that, I think we honestly touched on one of the things that to me are kind of at the heart of kind of why I feel like video is interesting, you know, one other thing I'll just kind of note, Seth Godin, who is kind of like a marketing guru and someone who I find is a big inspiration for me, who wrote a book called Purple Cow. And in Purple Cow, I love Seth Godin, by the way, he's one of my favorite marketers to listen to. Yeah, he's awesome, and you can just tell that he understands marketing in a way that's different. And in that book, what he talks about is he basically says, look, if you're driving down the road and you see a cow, you're, you're not going to think anything on it, right? That's a normal thing to see. But if you're driving down the road and you see a purple cow, that's going to be like, well, that's, that's different. And so I think that's the other kind of side of this, which is just that video, especially kind of this idea of like personal video in your inbox is very kind of different and it's very unique. And so one of the other things is we live in this age where people's inboxes are just crowded with newsletters and sales pitches and automation. And so part of what you're trying to do is a business when you're trying to connect with customers and get your message across as they're trying to say, how can I be different? How can I do something that is going to make me kind of stand out? And so I think that's just one of the kind of important component I would identify of why video I think is kind of seeing the traction that it's seeing as it grows as a space. And I think with, with all technologies that have been proven out to be effective, eventually there will be a point where everybody is using them. So to use them now would be to get ahead of your competitors, to use video now, there will be a point, I'm sure of it, where there will be no point in just text and video will be so accessible that everybody's going to have their own YouTube channel, everyone's going to build their own brand on all their social media, there's going to be tons of video, you're going to connect with your followers, your audience that way. Simultaneously messages are going to be predominantly video because it's again, that's human interaction in your inbox, so you're not going to see so many text emails anymore, all these things are going to convert to what's the best way to be as authentic and engaged while still being remote and not in somebody's office. I think, for example, with augmented reality, I do believe that people are going to be working from home, but they're going to be able to literally see each other in the office and be chatting with each other. The ability to connect with humans is people still need that human connection, but now technology is enabling them to do it remotely. You can leverage both, you can leverage efficiency, you don't have to spend as much money on an office, or you don't have to go fly across the country, but if you're sending an email, attach a video, if you're on a Zoom call, my God, just go on video, if you're already in front of your computer, the amount of times I see people that just don't go on video on Zoom calls, and it's funny because I think that whenever I have, I don't know if it's generational, I don't think it is entirely, but whenever I jump on a call with a younger SaaS account executive, video 10 to 10 times, but if I'm going into different industries, then sometimes it's no video just the name on a Zoom call, whatever, and I find it funny who looks towards new technologies and sort of who shines away from it is almost like an indication of the industry. You're totally right, man, and that lands going in, just give you an example to use Bonjour as an example. Bonjour is headquartered in Australia, right? I'm obviously in California, we have people in Texas, we have people in South Africa, we have people in the UK, we're a global team, and because of technology, exactly we're saying things like Slack, things like Zoom, things like all these new technologies that allow us to still be able to interface for me to go to hop on with someone in one of the other departments and just have a quick conversation. This is kind of the new world that we're kind of living and kind of thriving, but I still think even in that situation, that human contact, just like you were saying, I think it's vital, it's super important, and so I think that technology is kind of facilitating helping that connectedness. Yeah, I think video is like the video is like that is the key until we go to something else. Video is still like that key to maintain that human connectivity globally, without being in front of someone. What, where did I want to go? I wanted to go over just some sort of life lessons, you've been very successful in your career, I want to go over life lessons that you've kind of learned throughout your career, so there's two questions I like to ask. The first one is, if you were to tell your younger self, 20-year-old, 18-year-old, 16-year-old self, one thing, what would it be? I think that for the advice to mind yourself is to almost even experiment more, I think it's more than maybe some people, but I think that there's often this, I don't have stigmas the right word, but like for instance, I was into tabletop games, and tabletop games is not a particularly glamorous or cool thing when you're going to college and you're trying to fit in with the crowds, but I think that there's so much value that I got from testing those out and from experimenting and doing this, I think if I could go back, I would worry even less about, and I think this happens to a lot of us as we get older, we worry less about these things. I think there's so much pressure. It is, there's so much of that, and not only from peers, but I think that there's a lot of times families grow up and they're like, okay, you're going to be a lawyer, you're going to be a doctor, there's these very established, these are the credible paths, and for people who are listening who are interested in entrepreneurship, or even the word entrepreneurship I find is very interesting, because I think that the definition of it in many ways is changing. You can have someone who's a content creator, who runs a podcast, who runs whatever. It's maybe not like their primary source of income, but there's still viewing things that are entrepreneurial, so there's so many new abilities now for people to work on even projects. It doesn't even have to be a full-time, full-business anymore. This is the new world we live in. Someone actually was interviewing me yesterday about my growth with Rcom, a table top gaming company. One of the things I was talking about was so interesting there is I was saying, we now have democratization to capital through things like crowdfunding, Kickstarter. We have democratization to labor. I hired designers in Europe and South America and all over the world through things like upwork and DVNR and all these others. The types of access that we have through technology has really opened up as well. Yeah, no, and I also think that if you aren't taking advantage of, again, definition of entrepreneur definitely has changed, because for example, I'm still working. I'm running this podcast, something of a passion project, because I like connecting with different marketing sales, business leaders, and I think it provides value to people like me that are looking to understand different facets of emerging marketing sales technology and processes and strategies and so that's why I'm putting this together and I get tons out of speaking with all these yourself and other great individuals. I love it. Selfishly, I love having all these one-on-one interviews with people from all these different types of industries, all doing different things, but this is not my nine to five. Maybe one day it will be. I have no idea. Maybe now it's still something that I do for fun, but it's something that I'm learning. It's something that I've learned and have hopefully done a relatively good job at and I'll continue to try and do better. But if you don't take advantage of all those extra resources, it's almost like you're selling yourself short and you're inhibiting your own professional growth in the career that you could be doing because everything that I learned in this, in building out and recording video, editing video, editing audio, publishing on social media, building out and social media following, those are all things that are very, very obviously applicable to being a sales and marketing leader within an organization and those are not all things that traditional organizations are that great at teaching you. Sometimes you have to go out and learn some of that stuff on your own or learn how to be more effective because if you look at some organizations, there are individual influencers that are better at social media than Fortune 500, Fortune 500 companies. 100%. 100%. I mean, you know, the thing that's also so key is it's an investment in yourself, everything in life exists with an opportunity cost and by you setting up a podcast and you buying the equipment and you getting all these different things and learning all those skills, you know, it's like you could take $10,000 and you could invest in stocks, right? But what is the learning? What is the growth? What is your actual increase in value as an individual because of that, right? Much lower than if you invest in something like, I'm going to build these relationships, I'm going to build these networks, I'm going to learn all of these different video oriented skills. And so to me, that's the other thing that, you know, I totally encourage, you know, all the people listening, whether they're going to start, you know, their own business or whether it's just starting a project is investing yourself, investing your own development because in my eyes, I've always felt that the actual paycheck is very, very small. I would rather in terms of importance to how much I've worked and what I mean by that is I would much probably get in at a more entry level job that dramatically increase my value because then I, you know, I'm getting to say, take the reins of running a big social media for a company and I learn a ton and then that becomes a stepping stone that dramatically increases my value versus that job that pays 30% more but is dead end, right? So I think that's a mindset that I, I encourage everyone that I chat with to say, really focus on what's moving you from a career standpoint and knowledge standpoint over the month. Very good. Very good. So that's, that's all I, that's all I really have. I guess the last thing I wanted to ask you was, you mentioned, you mentioned Seth Goden as like a mentor or a source of knowledge that you enjoy and I love Seth too. Are there other like books, podcasts, audibles, things that you, you know, a favorite, a favorite book or podcasts, whatever that you'd recommend that you're reading now or that you've read in the past that that you've gotten a lot of insight from? Yeah. So I actually run a book review on my blog and I reviewed the perfect guy to ask that, okay? I reviewed dozens and dozens of books and for the very first time I gave a book a 10 out of 10. I have it in two years, given a single book, a 10 out of 10 and I'm not book was fan offer see by David Scott and I absolutely love this book. So basically it studies a ton of different brands and how they basically create these very passionate fans and customer evangelists around their product and it's fascinating because you would think like, okay, well, they're going to talk about Disney and Nike and whatever. One of the examples they use is like a classic car insurance company. Something that you wouldn't think would have like crazy fans, but they talk about how in a non glamorous industry, this company has built and it goes through the whole kind of game plan how they've done it. He's super strong referral word of mouth, like telling everyone about how great this is and I just love the way the book is presented because it's very actionable. But it really draws you into the point where I found myself relating to the author so much and saying, yeah, man, like that's that's how I feel and so if there was one book that I would really recommend that I think is almost universally applicable to anyone who runs a business because anyone who runs a business wants to have passionate people to say, to support their business and brand, I would definitely give fan off your seat read. Awesome, man. Okay. That's all I got. How do people get in touch with you? Yeah. So the website of people looking to get in touch with Bondroro is just Bondroro.com, so B-O-N-J-O-R-O.com and if people are looking to get directly connected with me, they can always shoot me an email. So BondroroKC, my name is C-A-S-E-Y, at Bondroro.com. People are always welcome to reach out and to meet questions. Okay. Cool. Is there anything else that I missed or are we good? No, that sounds great. Awesome, man. Okay. Thank you, Casey. So I really, really appreciate the chat. So go reach out to Casey. Go check out Bondroro. I actually might check it out after this call and see if I can run a trial for my own team. So thank you again for listening to another episode of these sales versus marketing podcasts. I'm your host, Scott. Please, if you haven't already, like, share, subscribe. You can find this podcast wherever you can download podcasts, as well as on YouTube. And if you haven't already, please do share it with your friends, peers, coworkers, family, anybody who could benefit from any sales, marketing, or business, knowledge. I hope you all have a very productive week and we will speak again soon. Bye now. Thanks for listening to the sales versus marketing podcasts brought to you by ROI overload. Delivering strategy, technology, and insights to both sales and marketing leaders and teams, global.