Chad Braverman - President & Chief Operating Officer at Doc Johnson | The Royal Family of S*x Toys

Chad Braverman is a dynamic second generation leader steering the company Doc Johnson with an innovative vision and a robust business acumen he was taking over the reins of a legacy created by his father Ron Braverman who transformed a small rubber goods company into the Doc Johnson in 1976 one of the largest adult toy companies in the world. Chad has been instrumental in elevating the family business to new heights since joining 2004 equipped with a business degree from the University of Miami he has blended traditional business strategies with modern creativity significantly contributing to Doc Johnson's impressive 135 million dollars in revenue as of 2021 his leadership has not only solidified Doc Johnson's position as an industry pioneer in quality innovation but also emphasize the importance of self-care and well-being through these adult products these pleasure products his dedication to pushing boundaries and fostering this culture of continuous improvement in the company ensures that Doc Johnson has always remained at the forefront of its industry offering individual products that enhance daily lives and provide relaxation to individuals his role running Doc Johnson is a testament to the enduring impact of family legacy skillfully adapted to meet the evolving needs of the modern consumer just to note this is a podcast that contains some adult topics if you have kids in the room this is probably not the podcast for them so please listen on your own time welcome to success story I'm your host Scott Clary the success story podcast is part of the HubSpot podcast network quick shout out to HubSpot before we get started HubSpot has an incredible tool called sales hub if you haven't checked it out now you got to why well you know what time it is it is sweater weather football season q4 this is the home stretch for your business it is time to close out another year of growth another year of business building strong and to prep for the next year of more revenue more customers more deals to bring in more business this q4 and beyond you need sales software that helps you score and top tools are all inside the new HubSpot sales hub with the customizable prospecting workspace smart deal management and AI powered apps you can take total control of your sales operation and manage your people and your pipeline with ease they've built it and designed it all into an accelerated workflow baked right into your HubSpot CRM and when you pair sales hub with other hubs like HubSpot smart CRM your team will be on the same page across the entire customer journey leads don't slip through the crack stop sticking to the same old strategies and start closing more deals because the best time to score is q4 make the switch to HubSpot sales hub at HubSpot.com slash sale so if you if you talk to my dad who founded the company back in 1976 at the time Johnson was one of the most popular surnames in the world so it was familiar and then doc the the concept around doc was sex toys this industry started as marital aids and that's kind of what they were referred to so almost like medical aids in a way people kind of thought like there was a which is funny now today there's a health and wellness aspect to it and back then I think this whole industry was trying to gain legitimacy so doc was doctor but more friendly it's like if you grew up in a small town and you had sort of like your local doc you know it was like doc friendly and and and you kind of feel comfortable with it Johnson you're familiar because it's an extremely popular surname around the world and you put those two together and it's doc Johnson I mean I always kind of mess with him that he had to have known Johnson also meant yeah I was gonna say you know and and and that that's one of the things we're really known for but um he holds pretty steadfast that this was really just taking something that was extremely taboo at the time that people were uncomfortable with and making it comfortable and something that they were felt you know familiar with and and you know I sort of looked into his background and he came from I guess the rubber industry and then he pivoted and maybe even explain like that pivot because this is you know now I would say that this is more of a culturally accepted kind of business obviously but I don't know where we're at in in the 70s I I'm sure it wasn't as as much the norm as it is right now so what was the mindset of somebody pivoting to this kind of industry what's the industry called is it like I say sex toys what is it what's the actual vernacular yeah I think the very well-known term would be sex toys you know someone asked me what I do and I want to just be very forthright I'm gonna say I make sex toys um in 2023 what's my normal answer I work in the sexual health and wellness industry um you know I think that that really truly I believe in my heart that that's what we are I believe that that is where we sort of like better people's lives and why our products super important um I've been around from the sex toy days well I I guess I should say adult novelties sex toys that are into pleasure products I still believe pleasure products is a better name than sex toys but overall like the overarching theme to me is sexual health and wellness so when so when he when he first start when your dad started this company is what I mean like why did he what did he go down this path this is like a very interesting business to start yeah so I'll give you sort of the like you know the five-minute special on that basically what a lot of people don't know is in America the adult market was sort of centered in Cleveland Ohio okay um one of the original sort of like founders and and main main players in this industry was from Cleveland Ohio and a lot of distribution and and and different categories in our industry in the way beginning kind of started there almost like this like central hub in the Midwest and kind of pushed out from there mostly to the east coast of course but definitely out under the west coast a little bit as well the west coast was a little bit later starting more of like the content side of things and the filming side of things but at that time it was magazines it was movies VHS very very very little like novelties but it still did have some novelties my dad is from Cleveland Ohio net was at the right place at the right time met some people in the industry got connected started working and was his main job was sales he was basically running magazines up and down the east coast making relationship with store owners making relationships with different people selling magazines and you know that sort of grew into more things as he kind of progressed within the within the organization he ended up moving uh to London and to Amsterdam and he had retail stores in both locations and when he was in Europe he saw that novelties the sex toys was a much bigger category in the retail locations that it was in the US in the US it was a real afterthought it was like shrink wrapped in a bargain bin in the back because the real money maker and the stores in those days were the peat booths and the and the and the tapes and the magazines and he felt that taking some of what he learned from Europe he felt that novelties could play a much bigger role in America and he felt like the use and the and the the the the the discussion and the acceptability around product was going to become greater in the US so he moved to Los Angeles he purchased a small manufacturer here in North Hollywood it's actually still the site that we're on right now like I'm coming to you live and they were a company that made a bunch of different products in the rubber market including some very very very limited like adult products um he purchased that company and and and in doing so what he really purchased was the machinery the connections to the material and then what he decided was I want to be 100% adult novelties so he started making butt plugs and dildos and dogs and all that other sort of stuff all the stuff you saw in Europe that was already into in that market it was doing that okay I got exactly and um yeah I mean basically the the the rest is sort of like history as they say because there was a massive demand and there was no supply so the company grew in exploded very very very very quickly like you know he was in a small footprint making a few products and really within a year we were in a 75,000 square foot facility um you know dozens of of of of of machines making a catalog that was already 200 250 products deep so he just like this is really interesting you see these you see these opportunities overseas I think it actually happens the opposite way too now you see a lot of people take ideas that happen in the US or that are culturally relevant in the US they take them overseas and they sort of copy them in Europe but for your dad it for it was it was the exact opposite so we saw this cultural shift yeah well it was opposite really because if you just look at like America versus Europe even still today Europe is just more you know they're more they're more free this is not taboo um you know we're you know we're not taboo right now anymore at all we probably haven't been for quite some time but there are still massive circles in this country that you know this is not something that you would be very you know clear on telling someone what you did or might not be accepted at a certain at a certain club or whatnot all over this country and in Europe I mean sex toys are sold you know everything yeah um and that's happening today too I mean you can find sex toys at any food drug mass location in this country too but they've been being sold in pharmacies in Europe for 20 years okay so we obviously we are behind there's probably I don't know the I don't know the culture of of Europe compared to the US but there's like you know religion is not culture with with a lot of this sex toys and a more regressive culture overall so I guess that makes sense but this is still 70s I didn't realize that this would be taboo in the 70s it seems like 70s was not so regressed free love yeah yeah and it was I mean listen again the demand was there so if this is always about not who's buying or if there is a buyer it's more about who's talking about it who's openly accepting it um you know not to mention there's a lot of other issues that we even still have to this day just business wise when you run a business in the adult industry you do not have the same capabilities and options available to you that someone in a more traditional business has on day one yeah well I'm just thinking so I can have a successful 47 year old company and not be able to get insurance through a major carrier that someone who literally has no um experience or no historical um sales could get on day one of opening their company that's actually wild I was thinking of like the cannabis example where it's impossible to run ads because nobody wants to you know yeah okay I mean yeah we can't run ads we get shadow banned on Instagram all the time we can't post 90% of our product on Instagram um you know we really can't do anything on TikTok um we can't run advertisements in mainstream magazines or mainstream websites so I mean all that is true too so when we say that it's not taboo anymore it's all over you know entertainment everyone's talking about it no one's really embarrassed anymore you could go to dinner with 10 women tonight and ask if they own a sex tour and they're not gonna be like oh my god like I can't believe you like you'd be like yeah I own 10 but I don't think people do know that even today in 2023 the type of issues that myself and my counterparts deal with just by being in the adult industry so let's let's talk about that because really really this is interesting to me so let's talk about first how how you know you said your dad built the company because there was this cultural shift there was you know more demand and supply but then you have other competitors come into the market um give me give me like a an idea of where where the company was when you started working and you started taking over and you started running with it that's a good question I mean I you know on one hand extremely solidified one of the major players in the industry definitely at that point probably I would say we you know definitely I'd lost some some some major ground to a lot of competitors there were just a lot of people in the industry from one by dad first started to when I started which next year will be 20 years for me you know and I know when I came in um definitely it wasn't the only reason I came here I came here for lots of reasons but one of the main reasons I came here was because I definitely felt like an opportunity with the with the company itself and as well as the industry at large like I really felt like this was a one generation old industry I wasn't kind of stepping into this like machine that just kind of needed to be oiled a little bit it's like I really needed to be like a player in the company I needed to take the company in different directions if we were going to continue to be here for like another 40 years you know um so I feel like the brand name has always been really strong our relationship with our customers and our sort of like foothold in the industry when I came in like I said was really solidified but there were a lot of people doing different stuff and I felt like maybe doc was maybe resting on its laurels a little bit back in 2004 when I first came in and you know that that's usually a side effect of of being one of the first movers right and then what you don't want to have happened is you don't want to be the blockbuster you don't want to be the people that created the market and then you get displaced and disrupted so what's I'm well success breeds complacency to sometimes like yeah very simple like if it's always worked and you've always made money from it it's hard to pivot you know and this company was run by one person and and you know and and and and and definitely a team always but there's you don't want to be the one that's like okay we're not going to do this anymore because this isn't the future when this has been so successful for us for the last 30 years but well that's what's wild you I don't know the correct me if I'm wrong but this this was never you never raised for this company you like I know the I think I don't know you want to talk numbers or whatever if you if you want to I know there's public numbers that I can google but the revenue on zero raises actually like super super impressive with a hundred percent equity ownership I think so yeah I mean this this industry has been successful it's been self-sufficient and you know really we're not we're not unique I mean you look at my industry and all the numbers that you can google pretty much are are are estimates because almost every company in this industry is privately held so okay so when you take this over there's very few raises and there's very few public entities in this industry very few on any level of the of the industry I mean from retail stores to distributors and wholesalers to manufacturers I would go out on a limb and say 95% of this industry is is 100% owned by an individual or individual why is that privately yeah an idea of why that is like why doesn't private equity come in scoop something out oh sure for for for for for let's say the industry's 50 years old right like just let's just put that number on it give or take it is for 40 of those years no one would give you a dollar no one would give it don't people money because they didn't see the benefit in it and they didn't see the exit strategy in it and they weren't wrong I mean outside of the fact that that the industry was successful and most companies were making money and were profiting a lot of the private equity money and investors and the strategic investors they're coming in for an exit plan and there's really not a lot of exit plans in my industry unless you're going to sell to a bigger company than yours or to a new set of investors or private equity you're not going to sell to Procter & Gamble yeah no you're right yeah you know you're not going to go on short so it there was a reason that actually did make sense but it's almost it was almost a nice benefit that we lacked that option because a lot of people in this industry were able to hold on to their companies 100% and become successful and these companies were profitable so you that's super impressive but then I'm trying to think of you know even before again when we jump down we're talking about brand equity and you own this company free and clear you've never raised money but it doesn't have the same brand equity that a household name that's selling products at a similar revenue level would normally have and I'm curious as to why that is I'm curious as to whether or not it's just because the industry is new probably a part of it and how do you solve for that and also just sort of thinking deeper why it's so important to solve for that is because when you have a widget like this that I think I know I mean the majority of your of your work forces in the US if you have a widget like this some competitor to come along and if you don't have that brand equity I know you've spoken but there's a few other times you've formed some of the articles I've read these copycat products these outsourced to China products could come along and and displace so how do you first of all why do you think there's not as much brand equity in some of the players in this industry how do you solve for it obviously we're doing it right now but outside of this interview how do you solve for it and then how do you fight back against these copycat products so both very good questions and both hard answers you know with the copycat product I'll take on the easier one maybe with just the copycat products like definitely very difficult and it's been increasingly difficult even in the last 20 years that I've been here because a lot of the numbers that do get published about this industry whether the rest of them that's or not they're pretty eye-opening and so I think a lot of people look to get into this industry they find a little niche that they can attack and you know they eat away at at shelf space you know and if enough people come in attacking little niches all the time for a company like mine that's kind of like a one-stop shop like I make product in every category in this industry if you can think of it like I guarantee you I probably make it whereas a lot of my competitors they don't they only make like 10 or 15 vibrators that are like four women you know or this company over here only makes BDSM product and that's all they focus on all day long or this company over here only makes lubricant or they only make cock rings there's a lot of companies that that's what they've decided to do and they get to come into work every day and focus on one thing and one thing only and try to be the best at that and I come into work and my team comes into work and we're kind of like okay well we're making lubricant and we're making cock rings and we're making BDSM products and we're making vibrators and we've got to compete with all of these other companies out there that like that's what they're doing all day every day and trying to sell our same customers that they make a better product than us because that's what they focus on so for us it's like a combination of yes the brand equity that we do have within the industry which is very high and that's different than the brand equity we have outside of the industry which I will admit is very low and that's kind of the second part of your question that I'll get to but within the industry our brand equity is very high and we have great relationships with our customers we have expertise on all different levels of R&D and product manufacturing and we are known with an industry to make a very good product so for us it's a combination of relationships it's a combination of our size and our ability to get our sales force out there in front of our customers store trainings you know retail trainings distributor trainings etc that we're able to kind of you know bully ball I guess in a way like our ability to kind of say like here's why you should be taking like our product in this category versus this product or here's why our products say good add to this category with these other products that you already keep so you know it's continuing to stay on top of like what we do and how we do it and try to do it better try to be unique you know whether that's packaging or the way that we market a product like you know I will take our team 10 out of 10 times against copycat items out there the copycat items a lot of times are really going after one thing and one thing only and that's price point yeah you know and so yeah sometimes it's a hard battle I'm not going to lie like there's there's shelves that we have lost that I don't know if we're going to get back because you have I think it's like seven I can't I was going to say 75% of your products made in the US so there's going to be somebody who's able to make it cheaper 100% yeah now we can go into that but that number is not 100% true anymore because we've moved the majority of our manufacturing we actually opened a facility six years ago down in Mexico okay so we own a manufacturing facility down in Mexico and we are actually producing the majority of our product down in Mexico right now part of that was expansion that we didn't have the ability to do here and then when COVID hit it there were things that we couldn't do here due to closures and other restrictions that we were able to do down in Mexicali that took what was originally an expansion and kind of made it a transition and that transition has kind of started to roll unfortunately just due to the fact that making product or anything for that matter in Los Angeles California it's kind of like the hardest place on earth that you can try to make a product at a price competitive at a price competitive rate and at a certain time you just got to look up and be like okay my product has a ceiling here's what I'm competing with and if I'm way here I don't think I have the brand equity with or without the end or with in or outside of the industry to compete any longer and so then that becomes a question of do I just put my head down and keep making American made product just for the sake of American made product or do I start to transition that to a location where I can make product at a better price you know so I'm curious as to your experience when you're going into all these retailers because you obviously see a cultural shift people are more accepting of this so now you're not just putting lube at a CVS or you're not just selling direct to consumer and you're not just selling in these super niche adult stores I guess some of your products are like on Walmart shelves at this point and when you have a conversation with that buyer you're already well I don't know are you already facing stigmas because of the industry that you have to overcome compounded with all these outsourced is it made in US is it made in China do they have do they ask you these questions is it like a harder conversation from the get go no no not at all I mean so within my industry no there's no stigma of course because we're all kind of wanting outside of the industry there's not it's it's weird right now we're in a very interesting place everybody who wants these products and every one of these sort of like let's call them food drug mass companies have a head buyer in charge of my category they will tell you this is the fastest growing segment on their shelves they want this product they want more of this product but sort of like the powers that be they want a controlled expansion okay they don't want to bring it as much as maybe they know they should because I don't think they want to have like a massive shelf of adult products on their store interesting is there a certain because I think they feel like there's going to be a bigger pushback to that if you saw just like a road deal those at Walmart and you feel like well like I think it's like I don't know if I'm using this term the right way but like in the zeitgeist of yeah of like conversations I don't think that's what they want to be associated with it's like they know it's a money maker they know it's their fastest growing category so it's kind of like I almost feel sometimes it's almost like hush hush like yeah keep buying more of it but like don't buy too much you know and then like the shelf grows and grows and grows and grows and grows and like could they at this point probably have a shelf this big like yes but they keep the shelf this big and they keep it behind plus do you do even like almost downplay the cosmetic packaging so that it's not as I don't know like in your face is that something that they would request I think we think about that with everything we do now you know it's like you know again going back to the idea that we make a lot of product for a lot of categories on one hand it's great on the other hand it's a it's a fucking nightmare you know because you do have to focus on a lot of different things at once and sometimes I hate to say you know or you sort of like a jack of all trades master of none you know and that's a conflict that I deal with personally like there are times where I'm like I maybe we do too much maybe this isn't the right way anymore maybe this has been the successful you know plan but isn't the right plan for the future um but on the good side we do get to kind of like dot johnson as an entity is not marketed towards one person we take our brands and market those towards the market that we're going afterward that specific brand so that's where we get to play with our packaging some of our packaging is super upscale and discrete and you know you could find it on any shelf and feel like it's it's in company of other products of of that look and feel and then we have stuff that's way more in your face and way more aggressive because guess what that's what kind of product it is yeah yeah you know I mean I I make I make big dildos yeah no I know so I just wondering and I'm thinking of a one more cell masturbators and yeah but they don't they don't buy that stuff they don't buy that stuff what do they buy and we know that we know of vibrators lots of personal care and cosmetics lubricants and ancillary items like that um they're expanding though I mean they they do buy some like non-descript male masturbatory sleeves now what is a non-descript male masturbatory sleeve it's like uh so like for us one of the things that doc johnson invented and it's still one of our biggest biggest biggest items is we invented the concept of molding up performers genitalia okay so we know we're talking so I never heard it this time I don't know what I'm talking about that's why yeah I mean I don't know I don't know what's fair and not fair everything everything's fair on this podcast bro like what I don't want to say I don't want to say we mold pussy's in this I'm gonna say it's like I mean you call like a pocket pussy or something like that I don't think you yeah so that's our that's our name yeah uh but our bigger our bigger brand for that now is is a brand called main squeeze okay and that is a brand that's just centered around female genitalia um you know and and and and and and the success of the performer yeah that that product is based on we do the same thing on the male side we have a line called signature cops yeah and then it's awesome it's not all that okay they don't buy that they're not gonna buy anything that looks like a mouse or a butthole or a vagina but we'll also make items that are literally just you know very very like the same material so super like soft textured sleeves that a man can use as a masturbatory aid and it just has a hole it's completely non-descript it doesn't look like anything it's just a it's just a a rubber for lack of a better word soft sleeve that a man can use you know instead of using his hand when when you do these models do you get like is it like an influencer exclusive agreement that you work with one performer and that performer cannot lend their genitalia to any other company is it that kind of agreement or can you have somebody else that makes the same thing because that's your ip then no no yeah no for us it's exclusive or no deal okay that makes sense yeah it doesn't make sense for us you know because you know it for us again that's where we that is one of the areas where we can eliminate copycats we can't eliminate the category but we can eliminate you know the actual ip around the performer so we work with some of the biggest performers in the industry you know on all sides right and um and um we want to make sure that that particular performer and hopefully the the growth of that particular performer success relates back to dot johnson and not like oh you can go get this person the product at five other companies yeah so like are you like like I'm using all these non industry analogies but are you like drafting these people on the come up basically you're looking yeah I mean that's a great way of saying it so I would say we have probably two methods right one is already very successful haven't done a product like this before go out work in you know try to just get that deal done and then the other way is exactly how you described it like basically drafting yeah looking at a different um criteria that we sort of put together um also connections that we have with other performers agents managers to kind of know hey this girl or this guy is playing the game yeah like they're in it they're in it to win it they know what they're gonna do and they know they're they're they're gonna do it the right way and i'll be honest i had i've had interests or or my team here we've had interested performers before and we've been told no interesting like not probably not gonna probably not gonna happen for this one how how uh name numbers are not but i'm just curious to to frame it again like everyone listening to this knows influencer marketing probably 0.001 percent of people know the type of work that you do and as well as you do it um so what's a deal like this when you do a deal just to and i'm also curious how the hell you do that how you how you mold it and whatever but when you do one of these deals what is it it's like a six-figure deal seven it depends on the performer like are these big numbers we're talking about like like like changing numbers okay no no no no no and and and and we're very honest with that with with everyone up front about this is this is ancillary to to your to your day today you know and right now that day today um you know between only fans and other um content these particular performers have the ability to be extremely like life changingly successful right now yeah you see it this is not the making millions per content it's wild this is not the adult content industry of 10 years ago like post covid you're talking about people making tens of millions of dollars a year from their content and so what we're offering is an ancillary item that you can provide to your fans and to all of your viewers uh that we're gonna go out and market we're gonna go out and sell to all our customers and it's like it's like something great to have and yes it's gonna bring you money um but this is not yeah you're not this is not sort of the retirement yeah i got you okay and and just because i i need to understand i guess molding a dick seems like it can make it it makes sense how do you mold a butthole or a vagina is there like health risks by by putting i don't know whatever this this this this type of uh so the material that we use is actually like incredibly body safe it's it's an alginate which is basically like a seaweed derivative um and and you can watch it online like you can go to our youtube channel we have moldings on there um just to kind of get a general concept of what we do but like for better or worse it's like think of this alginate we mix it with warm water it kind of turns into like uh i would call it the best description is like a a liquidy silly putty okay a girl will lie down on a table in a few different positions mainly missionary mainly doggie okay and then we just kind of like smear this sort of like liquid silly putty-ish looking material onto the body it cures very quickly creating like a very a very thin basically like outer skin this does not go inside the vagina or the butt or the mouth this is exterior moldings only okay and then once that alginate has cured we put like a bandage like uh almost like paper mishit it's like the bandage cures to the alginate and allows it to have a hard removable structure like a shell and then what we do is we just sort of the bond between the alginate and the plaster is stronger than the bond between the alginate and the human skin so we just kind of peel that off and we're just left with this negative impression of the of the persons uh of the person's body part just going to take a quick break thank the long time friend and sponsor the show the HubSpot podcast network they have incredible podcasts one of my favorites one you have to check out this month is nudge hosted by Phil Agnew now if you've ever noticed the smallest changes always seem to have the biggest impact on nudge you learn simple evidence back tips to help you kick bad habits get a raise grow a business the point is every bite size 20 minute show comes packed with practical advice from these incredible entrepreneurs behavioral scientists and everybody in between not just fast paced but very insightful and a must listen if you're a podcast fan make sure you listen to nudge wherever you love to get your podcasts because i would think that out of all the thing you i think you have what 2500 plus unique items like just a wild amount of different things on your site and i was looking through your site and i would assume that this particular type of product is probably a very i'm very curious about what's popular what's not but this seems like it would be a very popular product because i assume that even with only fans what seems to make only fans so popular is the ability for like the fan or you know the person to feel as close to the individual that they're watching on the screen as possible or didn't whatever pass and this seems like a this seems like has nothing personalized it seems like that's as close as you're probably ever going to get right so this is much more personal yeah you hit the nail you hit the nail on the head like our thing is just like we are one step closer in the fantasy yeah okay you know this is their identical replication of their private parts and you can now buy this you can put the content on your computer or on your tv and you can use it and yes generally speaking 99.9% of the human population this is as close as you are ever going to get to actually having sex with that performer yeah that you you know are a fan are these are these some of the ones selling out of all the stuff you do yeah this is one of our biggest and it's one of our biggest categories main squeeze is one of our biggest brands on the male side signature cox is also one of our biggest brands i think it is again it's something that we've been doing for a long time it's something we actually truly invented the process of doing it there's other companies that also do it now um but for us it's still it's still one of our biggest brands and it's one of our biggest categories if i group like performer replications into one category it's probably our biggest category of product that we've been and and explain something else to me because like i i know what this advice would look like and i know that there's one major competitor that i can aim off the top of my head and i won't i won't drop them on the podcast with you but i know that the the the the structure of this for like for for a guy like the pocket pose for a guy it's all very similar so is there no ip or copyright infringement on the actual structure of the not of the performer but like the case like that thing seems to be something you could put a patent on for example but i i don't see a patent heavily defended anywhere so i want to name i want to name what you're talking about because i know who it is that you're talking about because they're the Kleenex and and that's important because we talked about brand equity we didn't we didn't fully finish that conversation about brand equity but like fleshlight that's who you're talking about they have one of the best brand equity names in the industry and and and kudos to them like genuinely like they became the Kleenex of male masturbatory items and i'll admit where we're amazing and where we're not like the fact that we invented this process and where not the Kleenex of male masturbatory items is something that it kills me right it genuinely does the fact that you don't know the name main squeeze the way you know the name fleshlight like that is something that i i i lose sleep over i have no doubt but but again why are they the Kleenex of these items exactly what you just said they were the first people to say we're going to put it in a discrete case that has uh uh an end cap and a top that when you close these together this item no longer looks like a masturbate and they patented that they patented that okay okay they patented that so they had 13 years of fully 100% unrivaled um market success with this product fleshlight was also a great name it is it's a great name they made it look like a flashlight they made it look like a flashlight and and listen they fucking knocked it out of the park i mean they did there's nothing to say about it i mean um so the day that their patent was over is the day that we shipped the first main squeeze uh okay i got it that makes sense the idea behind the main squeeze that we did that i thought was you know honestly for me makes the pro and this is biased but for me it makes the product better infinitely better is our product is also in a discrete case but that case has a squeeze plate built into it so normally all these other hard case items you cannot apply pressure to your penis when you're using it it's just the pressure that's inherently there for the material inside which to me kind of goes against i think how man how men masturbate people if you're trying to replicate like a real experience yeah for sure so with our item we and i wish i had one right in front of me but i don't but we have a squeeze plate on it so when you're using it you can apply pressure via that squeeze plate to your penis as you're stroking i got you so it it feels like a real thing like i mean it's already feeling like a real thing but feels more like i think i think i also think that from r r and d and from my experience as a man and other men here on the team it's especially relevant when a man is close to orgasm that they are going to change the pressure that they apply when they are close to orgasm so here you have the ability to actually do that so main squeeze for us was sort of like a double entendre of like you can squeeze this product yeah also like kind of a girl kind of a girl that you will have on you know it's like your main squeeze it's a good name how do you so so so now you're dealing with this this 13-year patent and you have a product which you know if somebody listens to this i can guarantee you because i'm listening to it right now and i'm like shit that that does sound pretty fucking good um they're gonna go out and buy one of my main squeeze dot com exactly so how do you win back that those 13 years of brand equity lost well i did one of the main listen one of the main ways that you win it back is you know marketing your item obviously trying to get it out there to the masses have people understand there are ways to market our products even though we can't do it in all the traditional senses that another mainstream company could but there are ways to do it and your marketing kind of directly to the adult market which is actually think for this product the better place to market um and the other main way though is um every single product that we make is unique so we're competing in the category but we'll never compete on performer so if you want a Sasha Gray masturbator you have to buy a main squeeze um okay you know so our biggest way is just to make sure that we have better performers and also that those performers that we work with have more vested into it so that they also promote the product because their reach cumulatively is way greater than Doc Johnson's do they bring so they bring a fair amount of their audience over like when you partner with a performer um like do you have like a percentage of that audience that you you've probably done the math or you've looked at the data that starts to turn turns into a Doc Johnson customer yeah so i mean the only way we can really do it is to like affiliate links and stuff like that which they have promotions on my main squeeze.com which is we have a we have main squeeze is one of the only products in our entire um company that has its own website like you can go to dot johnson.com or shop. johnson.com and you can buy every product in our in our catalog as well as main squeezes but if you want sort of the main squeeze experience and the place that we do promote that product and we have our performers pushing uh customers to is it has its own website which like i said it's my main squeeze.com but like that's the only product in our entire um company that we do that okay okay which signifies to me it's importance to us as well as its volume you know like we want people to have kind of like a unique experience when they're on that site versus the dot johnson mains. that's so interesting so i would have thought i wouldn't have i know that that would be a popular product but i'm looking at your site right now and i'm you know okay so you have cock rings which i think i don't know what community that serves specifically i feel like that's not as mainstream for a straight guy to be into cock rings as maybe like i don't know what community that would serve but i know that like flashlight was a popular brand i've heard of before obviously that kind of product is super popular for for whatever for straight guys dildos i mean that serves obviously probably a more women audience either just massive assumptions but the dildo the dildo brand or i guess it's called the d the name of the the sub brand that you don't have a website for that so is that not why is that it's just the main squeeze is that that popular that i think the main squeeze is that popular but it's also because we're working with the performers and we're trying to you know we're trying to work directly with with we're trying to leverage their you know their success their followers and everything we want to push them to a unique experience you know i'll be the first to say when you go on dot johnson dot com it can be overwhelming there's a lot of products there obviously if i'm a performer i'm Chad braverman and i send you to my link you're going to go directly to my page but on my main squeeze you're just going to get a more unique experience based around what we know that specific market segment is looking for you know it's better pictures of the girls it's more information about the girls more information about the product just having our own unique site for that brand allows us to just like do more i'm not saying that this is not like a copy and paste thing that we might be doing with more brands in the future but as of right now it's better for us to push people to a single destination for like the rest of our products that don't necessarily leverage performers so that you can kind of like you can see all of our cock rings together yeah um and you can see all of our dildos together not just the d because the d's one of my brands i also have the realistic hawk i also have signature stroke or i mean i've seen a truck holiday name too sir outside name which which you know i want you to see that at the same time because if you come to shop dot johnson and you're like i'm looking for a dildo i want you to see the 250 dildos i have i don't want you to just see the d because maybe you might not like something at the d but you're going to like something at realistic hawks or maybe you're going to see that i that i molded a performer a male performer that you really like um i will tell you just so you know dildos primarily uh women and gay men i figure i don't want to make all these assumptions i don't have the date i'm just going from my you know limited experience i mean that adventurous but yeah women women women women and gay and gay males cock rings yeah traditionally more i would say probably more prevalent in the gay community just because it's more accepted because i think gay men are a little bit more open with like equipment like this like there are ways to use cock rings for straight men that feel very very good and i will tell straight men all the time like you're missing out on an experience if you're not at least trying it but another big thing about cock rings that you have to understand where it crosses over to just to all men in general is cock rings are very very big with any man experiencing any ed issues at all okay okay so the main main main purpose of a cock ring from the old days is you're trapping you're trapping blood flow into the penis and allowing that penis to get a more erect so if you are you having any ed issues you're gonna have something that's a more penetrable with your uh that's interesting so it's not just like a pleasure thing well i actually well it would be a pleasure thing but it's also a performance thing too yeah okay it's definitely a performance okay definitely also ed as well as um PE premature ejaculation and so that stops it and interesting yes yes so there's a lot of ways to use a cock ring um and and and the crossover like is is huge so it is really not just straight male or gay male or or this on the other um okay so we got let's go we go through the gamut of things that you you have on this site you have vibrators dildos a whole bunch of things that sort of fall under men's toys including cock rings prostate simulators like these are like i'm so vanilla like i don't i've never you i don't even know what a prostate simulator is like like the name says what it is but i don't know actually works you have a bunch of bondage stuff a whole bunch of like anal toys up your butt yeah i figured it's not that complicated to figure out but tell me like tell me you see trends you see trends in what people use when people are you know excited to try so outside of outside of you know we just spoke about the traditional groups or segments that use certain things what are people trying out what are people more apt to bring into their relationship into the bedroom that maybe 10 years ago were not a thing at all yeah so i mean i'll ask you i mean if you're gonna name one thing that you think people talk about more these days and seem to be doing more of on the body what part of the body do you think is the one that you feel like everyone just doesn't care about anymore like it's like the people don't care about anymore like it's just normal now like it's not as big of a deal as it was maybe when you were growing up well i would say that i would say that most guys have some sort of pocket pussy or main squeeze kind of device i would say that most women have a dildo or a vibrator i think that's normal um i would say that this is you know i'm not even that it's like i don't i don't try too much shit but i've heard people that do like the bdsm handcuffs like stuff like that but that's something that growing up was kind of like out there right like stuff like that bdsm when we were growing up was like done yeah i don't know how old you are but i think we're i think we're relatively sure was like we're like weird shit so bdsm got big with 50 shades of red okay okay that's what it became mainstream that's when all these wives and and women read about a guy tying them up and whipping them and you know doing all this sort of stuff and it became like i want that done to me yeah okay um so that's relatively new the thing that i was looking for you to say that's that's probably the biggest trend as well in the last ex number of years is just butt stuff really oh like i've seen it i've always been like to me that's like it grosses me out that's okay but i think that if you look at mainstream like do you not agree that you're hearing more people talk about like i don't know eating ass oh yeah you're right stuff than ever before yeah you're right to me it doesn't feel like something that anyone cares about anymore like when i was growing up it's like a girl was like you can you can you can have anal sex with me it was like what are you talking about like you know now it's like everyone's like you don't need to ask like what are you talking about right now it's like the fact that i was thinking about like toys specifically what toys are people using but yeah well so you the reason i brought it up was because you mentioned my prostate massager so like prostate massagers are like really why they got so big and why anal got so big women have always been kind of using butt plugs and what not gay men of course have always been using butt plugs and prostate massagers but it's straight men and they they use this now it's straight men that are like playing with their prostate playing with anal sensation and anal play yeah see i'm obviously don't experiment enough because it's totally new to me so this is something who leads the way who leads like them who leads the trends is it like you said obviously you have a you know a gay guy that's trying prostate massages and prostate simulation and whatnot women have butt plugs but who leads that and when do straight men start trying that stuff out there's no one place to like pinpoint and say this is when it happened it's like we start to notice these trends sometimes again from things that are just happening like uh in in in the culture you know like i said 50 shades of gray like every single person every single company in our industry we just sold out of any BDSM item that we made that's why whatever we had in stock was just gone overnight it was just gone overnight we've carried a product for 47 years we maybe sold i don't know 200 of them a month let's say right like just nothing like just like whatever maybe even a hundred a month they're called Benoit Balls you know I don't know anymore so they're like so they're like weighted like almost like kind of like marble balls like most of them are like silver plated or gold plated women can put them inside of their vagina and they use their pc muscles to kind of like hold them but also because they're um not um what's the word i'm looking for they're not sort of like tethered to anything the way that they kind of move around in the body can kind of create its own sensation okay it can be like very pleasurable um this is an item that like again we just carried for years they sold whatever they sold it's kind of almost like you just you know you just had Benoit Balls i think it was 50 shades of gray the first book or the second book or i don't know one of the books he puts Benoit Balls inside of her you know and and and Benoit Balls there was no Benoit Balls in the world that's so like crazy how that company in our industry sold out of Benoit Balls we could not get them in stock whatever you had an inventory was the sales that you could get if you had a hundred an inventory you sold out of a hundred you could not get any more if you had a thousand you sold out of a thousand so you know i think that i think that like society has become more sexualized i think that that's a pretty fair statement and i think that that's good and bad i think that it can hurt relationships or in a strong relationship if you bring some of this stuff into the bedroom it can probably help it like you even mentioned before like the industry that you see yourself in is not like a sex toys industry but you're you're in this sexual health and wellness industry and i'm curious as to what you think about bringing some of this stuff into relationships versus what you hear people say about oh we're over sexualized there's too much access to porn like so on and so forth yeah i mean listen i mean we we said something we've been saying something for years i don't if we coined it or if we adopted it from somewhere but we we are kind of like company thing has always been the couple that plays together stays together i think in relationships it's really really important to be open about your sexual needs and desires and to be open to receiving your partners back and finding out if that if there if there needs to be middle ground or if you can make every hope and wish and dream come true um because sex is really important to us and at the end of the day it makes us feel really good and if we're with someone who's willing to sort of explore all those little sexual commerce with us is that the end all be all of your relationship no but i can tell you that if you are not with someone who's willing to do that it is probably eventually going to be the end of the relationship in one way or another because there are a lot of people who are just extremely sexually dissatisfied with the people that they are with and that creeps in to the other nooks and crannies of your relationship yeah i i believe that and when i look at our product like if i just try to like like just wiggle it down till like it's a baseline thing is like i believe that you are buying my product whatever product it is you are buying it to feel good you are buying it to feel pleasure if that pleasure is through pain or if that pleasure is through an experience you have an experience before or if that pleasure is just good old-fashioned fucking pleasure like you're buying my product to feel good a woman is using a vibrator to orgasm with and their gemony women can't achieve orgasm through penetration alone it's like most isn't it so it's like i tell a factor that you it's really hard oh no it's a fact it's like it's high it's like in the 60s you know if not the low 70s so i always like i've been saying this for years like i've had friends that i grew up with that were like oh i'm going to bring a vibrator into the bedroom like i should be enough and it's like first of all a what are you talking about we're always different in the bedroom like you're not going to come with the same a game every single time but like the point should be that you want your partner to you know find the same pleasure that you find i don't want to say to the point is always to like achieve orgasm but like more times than not it is right so if like if your partner needs to bring something into the bedroom or wants to bring something into the bedroom to sort of help get there then my feeling is like absolutely well i i like that like why would we why would we not why i think what happens is people have i don't know it's like whether or not it's like uh religion or how you want to work out and diet or the sports seem that you're you know a supported for the people get these these these suchy strict views on on what they believe in they get very strict on what is right and what is wrong and life is black and white and you go into this relationship feeling that sex is only this one thing and then you don't communicate with your partner and then you don't want to you don't want to change the way you look at sex or you don't want to change the way you look at intimacy and then now with hyper sexualized everything external going into your partner's head i feel like that's when they look elsewhere because they're not satisfied and also i mean you can look at it psychologically too so when we experience pleasure we achieve a new baseline of what pleasure is and this is why that honeymoon period with like a you know a partner that's a real thing so we find somebody new they're new exciting uh we have sex with them and now it's exciting for a period of time but then all of a sudden sex with them becomes a new baseline so just just sex quote-unquote is no longer as exciting is when we first met them in the first week first month whatever so then we get bored and then we look elsewhere and then this is what breaks up relationships and this is what hurts people so i think that this is actually a really smart thing because i don't know any relationship where it's just as exciting day one on year 30 and year 40 like let's be real like this is a long as period of time life is long of course and i mean even if you take sex out of it for a second like listen everything is not this is not news relationships are really hard and you know there's there's a woman who i love um ester perel or ester peril i i don't know if i'm ever saying the last name right but one of the things that she preaches more than anything is this relationships just have different places in their lives and two people are just going to grow inevitably at different times and different places and if those two people can't sort of like find ways to grow together and sort of continue to meet in the middle on things or meet at a new destination like inevitably probably that relationship is going to run its course we just see that happen a lot in the sex types of things but i look at that because it because it is important yeah you know a good healthy sex life with your partner and with yourself is important to like overall well-being so that's why and you can get into that like in the medical terms of like the endorphins it releases the stress that it brings down like and there's a million of those reasons that like you can find right that like real doctors have like stuck yeah yeah um but just in like uh in like the simplistic terms like that's why i do say that like we're in the sexual health and wellness because i think that like we're a product that we make helps people feel better and it might be for a certain period of time i mean look at covid right like i joke our our company and our industry as a whole just skyrocketed during no kidding everyone's stuck at home okay but but it's two people that are stuck at home right it's two people it's the way i look at it it's the person that's in the relationship that stuck at home with the person that they're never stuck at home with for this long and what are you gonna do you're just gonna try to like spice things up you're gonna try out new products you're gonna bring sex toys in that you've never brought in before you're just doing different shit because all of a sudden you're stuck with this person that like normally you go to work normally you're out of the house you're with friends you're with family you're traveling you're in a city relationship sexual or otherwise the life distracts you from all the stuff that you should be dealing with covid forces to deal with exactly broken relationships or you're the second or you're the second person which was the person that was alone you weren't with a partner and you were missing out on dates and you're missing out on all this sort of stuff and maybe you don't have a friends with benefits maybe you were very covid safe or whatever and guess what you're doing you're online buying sex toys more of what you own and shit you've never bought before in your entire life because you're just like dude if i'm going out i'm going out feeling good yeah and when everybody got there um their government check in the mail biggest day we've ever had on our website no kidding this is what they go to biggest biggest week that's so interesting that's so interesting i mean it's because it's a he like listen you're human it's just like like a human function to be sexual and you can't just ignore it from the dawn of time i mean we we i mean sex is survival yeah that's it i mean we're not here without it where do you we don't survive as a human race without it so so where do you see where do you see this industry going what do you what do you see is new on the horizon stuff that you know maybe is now taboo that people you think will adopt be more mainstream about like what let's figure like what we're going to have like sex robots like where are we going to go with this like yeah on one hand on one hand i hate where this industry is why why because i hate because i hate where every industry is going i hate that we're becoming more sort of singular in our focus and like yeah i see sex robots and i see less human interaction and i see more sort of like this like inward um inward behavior you know we're so fucking stuck on these and everything else so like i'm no saint here like our our our industry in my company is going to follow in certain directions that we know our products that might be necessary for like where we're kind of headed as like humans um you know strap on my helmet yeah i'm going to have my product it's going to be connected to a machine that talks to my robot and you know it's going to uh jerk me off and yeah you know like demolition man really um yeah it's going to be like you know i mean like i think there's there's that segment that doesn't exist today and that and that's one segment that's going to be there tomorrow or when my company when i send my company to when i bring my kids for the third generation um you know they'll be like you and not how do you you know you're you're one of the people leading the way it's going to be a tough question because like you just said you just said you have to make products to keep up with consumer demand but how as one of the leaders in the industry do you make sure that we don't kill human connection if there is a sex robot and there is someone living in their mother's basement like they're never going to go out they're never going to go on a date they're never going to interact like this is going to be an issue no yeah it is i mean but yeah it's it's it's unavoidable but to the to every in is the yang you know like i do feel like if it's if it's either part of the pendulum swinging backwards or if it's just the part of our kind of civilization that stays more on the side of craving human connection like we'll still have our products that are meant for us to use together you know for us to just use separately i mean there's a lot of products that we make right now they're not going anywhere you know like they're not they're not going anywhere like there's always going to be the like there's always going to be the five six seven different types of vibrators that you kind of need for different reasons there's always going to be your simple sea rings or lubricants or lotions you know like this type of stuff is not going anywhere you know it's going to get better new ingredients better material um you know and then new inventions like maybe just different types of vibration you know different ways of vibration is um is translated to the body and to the body part yeah well you even you mentioned like you know between like the the but simulation prostate simulation you have the main squeeze it has like the pressure grip like you you start to see like small little things that improve your overall experience right um yeah that makes a lot of sense i'm you know just a couple more just thoughts to to sort of close this out just in you know your particular position your second generation uh owner of this business i'm very curious as to sort of bring it back now to to what you've built and what you're what your dad has started when you when you take over the reins of a business like this like very bluntly how do you not fuck it up how do you not screw it up how do you continue the legacy because i see so many people that jump into their fathers or parents footsteps and they don't run things right and i'm just curious as a business leader how did you manage this turn of obviously you're doing it successfully it's been 20 plus years but a lot of people generational wealth does not stick around for long in most cases yeah i think uh well a i'll start with you know my dad like i think i have to give a lot a lot a lot a lot a lot of credit to him because when i came in um a i didn't come in on day one like he made me work here every summer literally from like eighth grade going into ninth grade of like high school okay um and it wasn't because he wanted me to take over or because that was my destiny it was like you just got to have a fucking job like he's blue collar midwestern person and he was just like you have to have a job like you're not going to be you know just fucking running around all summer like a little shit um and i grew up way more um privileged than he did you know so he was just like you know you can work for me or you can go to basket robins or whatever you want to do you're going to work somewhere like yeah and i was like well it would be stupid to not work for you because i'll probably get away with more if i work for you you know um but i worked here every summer i worked in the shipping department i worked in the production department i worked in our lab i worked in receiving i worked in purchasing um so by the time i started here in 2004 um i i had been bred to basically do what i'm currently doing right now which is um you know i i know how the i know i knew how the company operated i sort of knew the ins and outs i had ideas of like what i thought wasn't right at least to me you know and i came in from college with way more ideas and and probably too many ideas you know and uh for better or worse i would say some some there's definitely a little bit of both like there were things that i just like wasn't allowed to do early on like maybe some big things that i i would have liked to have done that i was just kind of like kind of said like no to you know and maybe those could have been wild failures um i do also think crediting him again and this is something that i'll always take in if my kids ever end up here or whatnot is like you just do have to let people fail you know like you've got to let them sometimes make their own decisions and kind of grow from that and like realize why it failed and like hopefully learn from these mistakes and so i i believe that i was given you know rope uh to do that with it was like you know i say like never enough rope to like hang myself with but like you know enough rope to be like okay huh maybe that was maybe i'm just like a little rashier or i didn't look at the big picture um and then like i guess if i'll give myself some credit you can for 20 years later you can for me like you know i i i feel like i i worked hard here because like i was always very um concerned and aware of sort of like nepo baby share and so i do feel like when you come into an organization that's your family it's like it doesn't matter if you work 200 times harder than someone else it's like they're never gonna seed that but for your own sort of self it's like it breeds sort of like good tactics and good traits to sort of just like make sure that you're not kind of like freeload and um also like i think that for me it was really important that i just like i've always wanted to be like a macro manager and not a micro manager and so like i've put together like a really good team and i really trust in them and like this company's too big for one or two people to sort of like do everything and so you know again it's kind of shifting some stuff away from me but just like finding the right people and putting the right people in the places of of of of power um i've gotten lucky with some of those people and and and they've just helped me tremendously you know continue the organization you know in the right that i mean that's probably the smartest it's the smartest piece of advice like you're never gonna figure out everything yourself and yeah there's some you can shoot big you can fail a little bit but if you find the right people then you let them do their thing and you don't you don't micromanage and if it's the right people they'll run with it but also it's like get to the wrong people get rid of them quick but still up the right people yeah yeah that's enough one into that you know i mean sure i hired wrong people along the way and you're always gonna do that but identifying that and moving quickly is another thing that i would say is really really really important um someone told me once or maybe i read it somewhere i don't know but if you think it should be done eventually it should be done now oh i like that quote i've never heard that quote but i like it a lot i like that a lot um and there's a lot of times where i felt like i know i've got to do this but i just can't do it and it's like 10 out of 10 times if you know it's got to be done eventually just do it now um between working in the business as a young kid going to school did you find school was useful at all that's a good question um textbook wise no but growth wise yes yes growth wise yes i mean i honestly can't say that there's anything i've brought to school here as a real like textbook example of something that i learned and then like completely applied here in like a real it's interesting isn't it like how much real businesses uh like that was chapter seven that helped me right here today you know like um but i think like overall and just like the experience that it taught me and i might be a little unique like i went to a small school here in Los Angeles i have small group of friends we were together from a very very very young age and i was very very very comfortable and i definitely looked back at it and think to myself that i was like a very big fish in a very small pond and so for me school was more than like textbooks it was like i decided to go three thousand miles away to a city i did not know anyone in and to a school that i did not know anyone in so just like choosing to do something like that for me those particular four years of my life were like invaluable i love that and i think that i think that your awareness of where school impacts like a business leader i think that's important because i really one message that i run into a lot is people over indexing sometimes on textbook education or even reading books or pot listening to pot which is all great stuff and i would say that even i was going to stack rank educational sources i'd put i'd put like podcasts and listening to business leaders like above school even then but i would say that they still under index and under emphasize the importance of like just doing shit and doing the work and figuring it out and failing and i love that in your dad you know you said you could have worked anywhere but your dad gave you the opportunity to work in a business i think that is probably one of the smartest things you can do not everybody has that opportunity but if you do have the opportunity to build something or work in something that you can eventually you know as an entrepreneur try and run or or build something similar to the work that you were working in as a as a student i think that's the best possible thing you could do to be successful because i mean you can take any MBA in the world it doesn't prepare you for real life and it definitely doesn't prepare you for being an entrepreneur founder or CEO see sweet executive and all the shit you have to deal with yeah i think there's certain things within business that you really do need to go to school for you know and then there's like if you're talking about sort of like you said entrepreneurship or just sort of overall leadership yeah it's it's it's real life experience um what would be one lesson you would tell your 20 year old self slow down slow down okay why is that yeah i think like i said there were just sometimes where i feel like i when i was 20 i was washing into things and needed to accomplish stuff really really quickly and if i didn't see things immediately it was like you know immediate gratification um so i think like slow down just like build yeah you know like things that i've done in the last couple of years here were things that i said in devotion eight years ago i love that smart um last question uh and you can answer in two ways i'll tell you the question a second but i want you to answer in a business context and more on a personal level as well so the question is you've had incredible career at this point in your life what does success mean to you but think about like where you want the business to go but also when you're running something this size no investors you could do whatever you want with it where do you take yourself personally so business wise what does success mean to me so i feel like my industry is really on the cusp right now of a lot of change and as that one generation is kind of you know moving on i feel like there's a lot of opportunity here within the industry for you know different opportunities to sort of maybe like merge a choir sort of like roll up into sort of like bigger organizations and i think we're like in like the infancy of like what other mainstream categories have done so i feel like business wise for me it's like i have a goal in mind that i've set for this company um it's a number goal you know of like you know that i would that i would really like to hit within the next like five years okay you know and it's that number i'm not gonna say it but i would say just to give you context it's like triple what are currently revenue okay good and you're and you just put it in traditional playbook the the playbook that you've seen another industry okay it makes sense yeah and so i feel like that's for me right now that would be like that's what i want to see the company in the next five years okay um personally honestly man i have two kids five and two and uh you know like i'm at that level right now where it's like personal success is like happily providing for my family and just having like a happy healthy family