Joe Foster, Founder & CEO of Reebok | How to Build an Iconic Brand

Welcome to success story, the most useful podcast in the world. I'm your host Scott D. Clary. The success story podcast is part of the HubSpot podcast network. The HubSpot podcast network has other great podcasts you should go check out like being boss hosted by Emily Thompson. Now with the holidays just around the corner, you're probably thinking, what's next for you in the new year? What other shows are you going to listen to to level yourself up? Well, on the success story podcast, I interview a lot of entrepreneurs and I usually dive deep into the creative aspects of building a business. So if you are a creative, a creative business owner or you're thinking about eventually becoming one, which at some point, everybody kind of has to be because you have to be a little bit creative in how you build a business, how you market a business, now you sell your product, all that does require some creativity, but also for people that are hyper focused on the creative niche. You may be interested in being boss hosted by Emily Thompson. Being boss is an exploration of not only what it means, but what it takes to be a boss as a creative business owner. If you are into some of the following topics, you're going to love this show, project management and building systems for creatives, freelancers or side hustlers, opening a retail store, rituals that inspire and evoke creativity, and taking time off as a business owner to focus on yourself, your creativity and upskilling. You need to listen to being boss, they cover all these topics and more. You can listen to being boss on any of your favorite podcasting platforms or at HubSpot.com slash podcast network. Today, my guest is Joe Foster. He is the founder and former CEO of Reebok. Joe founded Reebok in 1958 with his late brother Jeff following their family heritage back to 1895. Joe's grandfather also, Joseph W. Foster pioneered despite running shoe and famously made shoes of some of the world's best athletes of the early 20th century. Wearing pumps made by JW Foster and sons, Harold Abraham's and Eric Lidell won Olympic gold medals in the 1928 Paris Olympics. And we're immortalized in the film, chariots of fire with Reebok. Joe and Jeff followed in their grandfather's footsteps, creating footwear that led to Olympic Commonwealth, European medals, and world record breaking performances and over time became the globally recognized brand that we know and love today. Joe wrote the book, Shoemaker that highlights and speaks about his journey. It speaks about his entrepreneurial journey, how they came up with the idea for Reebok, where the name Reebok came from, how he had to adopt a certain mindset in order to make Reebok a success. Some of the highs and the lows that he experienced in his life and his journey, how he brought Reebok from Europe over to the US. Some lessons there and why it was so important, ultimately for the success of the company and then just some experiences and some insights that he's garnered from an incredible career and an incredible success. This is Joe Foster, founder and former CEO of Reebok. Thank you so much for the invitation. It's wonderful and it really is great to be able to tell the story and you're more or less laid it out. It really did start. Jeff and I knew very little about our grandfather and surprisingly enough it was just to us growing up a local business and we didn't know until we got Reebok from the world around the world with Reebok before we had a little bit of money. Some time we could get something to really dig into the family history and it's remarkable but of course we didn't have a communication line we have today so that story didn't really get out and about and writing the book more or less enable me to tell the truth because you know we've been looking at reports on Google Wikipedia. This is how Reebok started, you know Reebok was this and we were and I'm looking and there's even a photograph I think it's in Google or maybe Wikipedia of Joseph Foster, the founder of Reebok and I don't know who he is. We had to get this down on writing so seven years ago I sat down and decided we'll live in a tenterie for that time which is a canary island and we spent some time there and nice, relaxed, start writing and get the computer out. Probably if I had to do it one year and maybe or even on the chat router we're with a computer you can do lots of things and so I started simply to begin with to put the story straight but you know once you start going you don't remember things and this happened, this happened. So the story started to grow from memory, the only thing I had was chronological, the chronological order of some of the stuff, okay, grandfather I knew, my own experiences we needed some chronology that yes, grandfather he started way back in 1895 it was only 15, pretty young but I suppose in those days 15, you know, you finished school, you finished school probably 10 years old and that was it, so 15, he was a cobbler and he was also a member of his local athletic club in the Northwest of England and it almost struck him that well maybe if I put some spikes at the bottom of my shoes I might improve my running results and he got this idea from his grandfather. So, but his grandfather didn't know anything about running, didn't know anything about running shoes, his grandfather was a cobbler quite some distance away probably 50 miles or 50 miles away in those days in the United Kingdom, you had to do some traveling to get that, but he went to see his grandfather and his grandfather a cobbler not only repaired street shoes, he also repaired cricket boots, cricket boots in those days are spikes in the bottom. And of course, probably my grandfather Joel said to his grandfather, why have they got spikes in, why don't I, I'll give them grip, ah, okay, so that was probably his like ball moment and he thought, give them, I could do with a pair of something with spikes in to give me grip when I'm running and in those days cinder tracks so spikes would have been great. And so coming back, he made himself, but I mean the story goes that really he hadn't sold one of the souls on, but he worked so impatient with the other soul, he nailed it on. And I think that came off in his first race, but the problem that that was the start, but you know, what he seemed to know is today sort of commonplace and that's influences, he knew, he knew something about influence and he used to give his shoes to obviously to lead him on this. And by 1904, he had three world records in one race, it was a one hour race and the guy Al Shrub, he broke three world records during one hour in one race. So that was his beginning, also he got lots of gold medals in that first decade of the 20th century, but then of course we had 1914, 1918, World War One, unfortunately nobody wanted to have done the issues during the war. But the 1920s came along, and as you said, he had Eric Little, Harold A. Rams, and he got Lord Burley, I think Lord Burley, and he had gone mentally there before or just after little and A. Rams, and all three of them were in charge of Sophia. So he made their shoes, and he gave shoes to many leading athletes, and he did lots and lots of gold medals. And we learned this, and I have the, I have a file of the advertising he used to do in newspapers throughout the UK and some magazines. And this incredible file is about four inches thick of all these episodes, some of them are quite cheeky, but most of them just say so and so, one less race and all these top leading athletes were winning races in his shoes. Unfortunately, grandfather died in 1933, I was born in 1935, some 50 months after he died, and as you've already said, since I was born on his birthday, 50 months after he died, they call me, I came with my name. Grandmother insisted, she was with my wife, she insisted, because his name with him, and that was it. I didn't know any difference, and my mother, my mother didn't like the idea that I'd be called Joel, I don't know what she wanted to come on, but not Joel. The family, my grandfather's business, which he set up in 1900, was JW Foster and Sons, and all the family, JW Foster. My brother was Jeff, I had a younger brother, John, my father was James, and my uncle was John, all with the William. So, what have we done? It purposely done, yes, purposely done. When I had children, there were no JWs, but in fact, Jeff married a gene, and I married a gene. So, and we were living together, we lived together in the factory premises, we lived together. So, can you imagine the mail when it comes to JWs and 2Js across? So, you know, it was confusion, it was a lottery as to who wanted the letter. Anyway, that's what happened, but we didn't continue with the JWs beyond that. I think it was a sort of tradition in those days. And so, I'm born in 35. By 1939, four years later, we have another World War, one in World War II. And for six years until 1945, we all liked some. You know, we're kids, we're growing up, you don't know any differences. It's exciting, no lights, we're running around the streets. And we had things like double summertime, so it was light forever. And until 1945, when the war was over, wow, the lights come on, things change. And really, probably education started. We did have education during the war, but there was in the front room of some teachers' house, and not really no consistency to it. But by the time I was 10, we were in full education, and I went to college, which I had three, two years in college, three years in college, and I left at 17 to join the family business. Family business was by this time being run by my father and uncle. And only one year before, well, Jeff and I happened to be at the same time, off to do national service. It was mandatory, we had no choice. Two years of national service, which was, I think it's probably the making of a violent, sort of, the reason why we decided in the antecedent of our own business, because we went away, and we spent two years away from family. You know, mothers not to get in your opponent morning, make doing your washing, making your meals. You've not want to refer to, you learn how to be independent. Then you learn the best ways of being independent, how to do things. For 12 months of my two years, I spent just playing Bambinton. At that time, I was reasonable at Bambinton. Obviously, good enough to play for the, I think it was a, well, we were fight-to-command in the area after I played for it. So, yeah, enjoyed that. We came back though from national service, and Jeff had been in Germany. In Germany, he'd seen how it doesn't purely come back, and we're talking. We're looking at the business, and it's failing. It's going nowhere. Then they're making the same shoes made in 1930s and early 40s, and we think, why? And, well, the reason was that my father and my uncle were a bit like Adidas, and really Dassler. They feud it. They fought. They were six years apart in age, and they didn't get on. Till this day, I don't know why. So, the business really wasn't progressive. My father was looking after machine, song work, and my uncle looked after the hand-song shoes, which were the shoes that grandfather had started making. And there were also the shoes that were sending to Yale University. Yale used to buy two hundred per month from Fosters, and they distributed through USA. So, I knew at that time that USA was a good market, but the company was failing. It wasn't moving on. All just were less and less. And, you know, I took this up with my father. We've got to progress. We've got to change this. We need a plan. We need to do some marketing. You know, I know what he could say is, look, when I'm gone, my uncle has gone, this business will be yours. I'm saying that, but number one, we don't want you to go. You know, we're not looking for you to go anywhere. Prepare you to be around. But number two, this business will have gone. There will be no business. Still didn't listen. So, Jeff and I, by 1958, we've made our plans. If they can't change, we'd have to change. And so, in 1958, we left the business and set up our own little business, America's Sports Footwear. America's Sports Footwear, brilliant. I'm going to be doing fine. We're doing fine for 18 months. And, if I were to make it some money, make it money. Then, our accountant, he came and said, look, guys, you're doing well, but you'd better register that name. I was 23, Jeff was 25, but a while ago, I was 24, I was in, why? I said, well, if somebody else starts and thinks you're making good shoes, they're good. And they start making America's Footwear. You're going to have a lot of trouble because you're going to have to prove that that's your name. What do we do? You go and see a patent agent, and a patent agent will check the register for you. So, we did. I went along to see a man named Manchester, and he checked out the name Mercury. And he was already pre-registered. You know, we're making a living. It's nice. We'd like the name. Nothing much, I'm very... And we also have the Winged Messenger, because our logo. Right. So, our agent said, well, I've been in touch with the people. That was Lotus and Delta. They were part of British shoe corporation, a big corporation. And they'll sell it to you for £1,000. £1,000? We'd set up our whole factory on about £250. We had it anyway. We couldn't find £1,000, and it's like impossible. OK, he said, so, you'll need to change. If you need to change, you'll need to give me 10 names. At least 10. I don't have puzzles. And why? Why 10 names? Well, we've got to check the register. And it's surprising how many names are already pre-registered. And he pointed through his window. It was open. It was nice, Mayday. Sun was coming in there. Pointed through his window to Kodak. And I'm saying Kodak. What's with Kodak? I said, Mayday, don't name. You know, they invented the name. So, it's those. They've registered it. It's invented. Any name that you bring along. If it's already there. If it's a name you pick, it might already be pre-registered. We don't know. OK. So, we go back and sit around the table. Look. We need a new name. So, we think in Kuga. Fulken. These are aggressive names. That was good. Yeah, that was good. Let me take you back to 1943. 1943 is the middle of the war. And by COVID, nobody can really go anywhere. I'm more or less staying at home. But we had events. And a lot of events. I won an 80-yard race. I won the race. Of course, I had an advantage. Foster's race spikes. So, I had spikes. I was quite an advantage to the rest of the kids that I was running against. I was a little fantastic. Right. I got up to click my prize. Yes, I was surprised. What was my prize? A dictionary. A dictionary. Where's the football guys? My kid. A dictionary. And at the time, I didn't know it. But it was an American dictionary. Websters. A new probable Websters dictionary. I mean, that's, of course. Websters. No name. Right. And as we know, American spelling of one or two names is different. We have color, labor. They all have a U in it in the UK. And don't have a U in it in America. So. I'm supposed to learn how to spell things. And I've got an American dictionary. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Put it at one side. So, fast forward now. Now we're back into 1960 and a problem to find a name. We're brighting all these down. But I had my dictionary there. I like the letter R. Good. Good. Good. Strong letter. Open the book. Open the book. And turn to R. Let's start thumbing through from. Sooner, I'm at R. W. B. OK. What's that? Small South African Brazil. Gazelle. Wow. Fantastic. That's going to be it. Put that top of the list. And it's probably be OK. Now, if I had been looking at an Oxford English dictionary, I would have had that spelled R-H-B-OK, or even R-H-B-O-C-K. So, you know, it was like, I may have just passed that by. But so, fortunately, I had an American spelling of a small does that. And I took this to the agent. And he checked out all the names. What was the only name that came out? Because I said, we need this one. We're in love with this. We've got to be in love with it, because it's going to be our passion. But it was the only one that came out. There was one caveat. And that was from the registrar who said, we can only put it in part B of the register. And why part B? What's that? What's the difference? Well, he said, if anybody makes shoes out of re-box skin, we can't stop them from all these re-boxes. And, Jeff and I, we looked at each other and thought, is that going to happen? No. We're going re-box. And 20 years later, we got a letter from the registrar to tell us that now a re-box could remove from the B section to the A section. And the reason was that everybody now knows that re-box is a shoe and not an animal. But that's how it began re-box. That's an amazing story. Thank you so much. And you, you know, you really, you carried the story, you didn't force me to ask a lot of questions that I wouldn't have known to ask, so I appreciate you telling that over. And obviously, your portion of the story, you knew well. And that's an incredible story. And I didn't know, I didn't know that, I didn't know that story behind re-box. But you also discovered a lot of interesting things behind your grandfather and what not when you, when you wrote Shoemaker. And were there certain, you alluded to it, but was there certain things that you discovered that basically you tapped into that were key in some of the learnings that you've implemented in the company. You mentioned even, for example, perhaps I just want to take a second and thank the sponsor of today's episode, Masterworks. Most millionaires do this. Listen, after interviewing over 200 entrepreneurs and investors, highly successful people, I've discovered they all do one thing in common. 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Luckily, I've partnered with Masterworks to get VIP access to skip to the front. To secure your spot, head to masterworks.io. Slash success story. That is masterworks.io. Slash success story. You can skip to the head of the line and start investing in contemporary art that the ultra wealthy invest in. To see important disclosures, go to masterworks.io. Slash disclaimer. Moving away from moving towards innovation, understanding the ability to go into new markets, when perhaps your father or your grandfather didn't. These were all sort of lessons learned that you took into the company and I guess you probably discovered more when you did more research. So, I guess two ways I want to take this. First, I want to understand some of the interesting things that perhaps you did discover about your grandfather, just at a high level. We don't have to go into too much detail and tell more stories. But then I also want to, I want to understand some of the insights that you took from your father and your grandfather when you were building out the company going into American markets, innovating and trying new things. And all these other things that have made Reebok successful. And some of those learnings that you could probably teach over. So first, I would say, what did you learn about your grandfather outside of what you had already known? Well, I guess when you started the company, but what we didn't know is who it supplied. All these athletes, all these, and they were really leading athletes. And I think that woke us up to the fact that if you're going to be successful, you're going to need to be a winner. You're going to need to be seen to win things. And in athletics is races. So he had shoes on people winning races. And we know that some would buy them, but even back then, in the early 20th century, you know, given away shoes, and he did, because in his absence, he actually gave them to somebody who was a writer, not an athletics writer, writing for the reporter for the news. And this reporter, I say, wrote a report that, you know, I've just received this pair of shoes from George Foster. And I must admit, they're the best shoes I've ever worn. So, he owned from a multi-product. You know, right now we have computers and we have mobile phones, we're able to communicate social media. It's everywhere now. But in those days, no. You just had local events advertising in race, race events, and magazines. I mean, as far as the UK was concerned, at that moment in time was an empire. Now he's a commonwealth. But as an empire, whatever magazines were sort of printed an issue in the UK, would go out to Canada, would go to Australia, New Zealand, India, Africa. And people would write in, because the advocates will say, please write for our illustrated catalogue. And a lot of people in these different countries learn in English. This is part of the way to learn English. They would begin in these magazines and all right for an illustration. And so, in fact, it's quite funny, because when these letters came in from abroad, my father, and uncle, they used to cut the stamp off and stick it on the wall next to the desk. And that must have been of two meters square. It was massive. All these things. I wish I could have it today. I wish I could go back and see that wall today, because it would be, it would be, with a fortune, it was absolutely incredible, having a different, from all around the world. Or, I mean, about 150 countries belong to the empire. It was even smaller than I was. So, all these allies had their own stamps. But so, we learn that communicating and sort of influencing, we need to get athletes. But I, you know, we learn in this from what grandfather was doing. We thought, well, you know, we've got a lot to do to equally what he achieved. And he obviously didn't, well, my father and my uncle did not carry on that spirit, that business. Maybe two world wars that I will, you know, live through world, one world war. Maybe two world wars took away the, the, the energy, the energy, yeah. He took that away from them to sort of create a business. Because by that time, and probably in the late 40's, early 50's, not the time to start, sort of building things, I suppose. You know, there was subtle in the business, it would bring in a nice living, and that's how they were. So, we had to, sort of, think again, oh, you build a business, it won't build itself. And I, I used to go out only on the world, selling to us to the retail shops in different times all over the UK. And, okay, I did, I did quite well, but so many shops I would call it. And, I said, I'm Reebok, and most of them would say, oh, Reebok, okay. Bringing the shoes out, and this is, you know, and they'd look at me and they'd say, look, I've got Adidas, and I've got Dungwap. Why do I need Reebok? Not to me was a very important question. And, I think it came up two or three times before a hitman. Why did they need Reebok? They don't. They don't need Reebok, man. They've been running the shop and being successful and making money well before a Reebok was around. So, they don't need Reebok. So, at that time, we decided we go to the athletes, and we went to race meetings with shoes in the car, and we sold, and we became very much involved in the athletic scene as people who produced the right sort of football. And also, in the UK, we had the amateur athletic association, the three A's, and they produced a handbook. The handbook was about three to four hundred of different clubs, and we had the name and address of every secretary. So, that was an opportunity. Right in the letters. The letter went to each one. We offered them a 15% discount, and our business started to grow. At that point, then, the retailers that had been calling on, they were forming me, and saying, you're supplying some of our athletes, the local athletes, and, you know, we'll stop your shoes if you stop silencing athletes. Oh, well. I said, look, we'll deliver to you at a wholesale price. The athletes only get 15% off, and we'll also advertise if you're one of our distributors, if you want, but we're not stopping selling direct, because that's our marketing. 90% of these guys agree. And so, that's how our business grew in the United Kingdom. But, you know, athletics, it's a small business. The big business is, then, the UK is soccer. Football we got. Soccer is the big business. Trying enough, we go back to grandfather, and he was supplying almost every, I think it's only one or two teams, almost every football or soccer team in the United Kingdom, including rugby teams. There were 96, so he was supplying direct. He used to supply them. And, we just wondered what happened. How did, how did father and uncle lose that business? But we lost it. It was now in the hands of Adidas. To get in there, we didn't tell that much money. To get in there, we needed a lot of money. Because, by that time, Adidas was starting to pay people. And, the soccer scene, football scene, we've begun into influence street. You could see the kids on the street, with replica shirts, footballs, and also training shoes. We need the good bigger. How do we get bigger? Well, that came back to my experience with Fasters and America. Why not America? That's a big market. In America, you've got colleges, universities, there are a lot of cultures, cultures of God, and you can go there, on a sports scholarship. That's going to be a big market. 1968, I'm reading a magazine. It's a sporting magazine. There's an advertisement in there from the British government, saying that we want you to export. And, we will get you a stand, the NSGA show, that's a national sporting goods in America, in Chicago. We'll log in as a stand for you. We'll pay for your return, and we'll pay half of your expenses, your hotel, whatever. Nice. Like going for a holiday, that, and somebody paying. Let's do it. Yeah. Get on with it. No. So, yeah. I was 1968. No. I had a work with a friend of mine, who he was in the outdoor industry. We were in the sport, but we were making a climbing boot for a rock climbing boot. And he said, yeah, I'll come along. Let's go together and went out to Chicago. Well, first of all, I went to New York, and we visited the sport store. I visited the sport stores. He visited outdoor stores. Just come to what a business would like. Then, I went to Chicago, onto the stand, and, okay. Lots of people there. Lots of people love the shoes. And they're saying, well, would we get these from? I have to say in England. Here's the counter. And they're saying, is that New England? No, no, no, no. No. This is the Old England. One, one, one, one, one me a London. Across the sea. And, well, they love the product, but they say, look. And when we can get the product here, if we combine in the states, we'd love to give it a try. This is 1968. It was 1979, before I got that distribution in America. Eleven years. Six complete failures. Six times I was there. With one guy I was there for four years, trying to get in, knocking the door, but it was the same with the problem I had with the retail business, with the retail sports stores in the UK. Why didn't he Reebok? They didn't. They didn't leave Reebok. They tried, they give it a go, but they didn't leave Reebok. I had to make them need again. Fortunately, it was Ronner's World. Running started running during the 70s, running became a massive business. It really took off. And with it, it came Ronner's World. I don't know if it was Ronner's World that created the business, because Ronner's World started a small, one single page, a four. That was Ronner's World. By 1975, it was a hundred-page, glossy, full, glossy magazine, with everything in the events, where there were going to take place, people run events, and Bob Anderson was the publisher. He was so influential that he decided he could tell people what's the best shoe. What is the best shoe? And he did. And he said, this is the number one one shoe. And it was a Nike running shoe. Well, you can think of Phil Knight, probably died on the spot, of thinking, wow, fantastic. We're now, we've got the number one shoe. Then, then he would strike him. How do I meet the orders? Because, you know, you're 300 to 50 million people in the USA, and probably 40 million were going out running. And four million would probably like to get the number one shoe. So they placed an order with Nike for a shoe. Could Nike? You know, could they get a shoe? No. Because Nike, is it? Yeah. They bring them in from Japan. And, you know, the demand suddenly, probably Phil Knight, is placing orders for 250,000 per person, probably in place in order. So 20,000 per person. No, no. And he's trying to get his production up so that he can meet the potential orders that the retailers would demand him. If you've been in business, producing an item like a running shoe, and trying to wind up that business to meet that demand, that takes almost a year just to get it going off the ground. And so, by the time, by the time Phil Knight and Nike have got the shoes, or we're getting, getting the shoes in, and the retailers will get the shoes for their customers, but by the end of the month, we've gone to our months, we're going to have another number one shoe. And this was a different shoe. So by this time, for business, the retail business, in total disorder, tells the shoes would come in, and all of a sudden, there's a new number one shoe. Everybody changes to the name dark. We want the number one shoe, not that's the shoe. So this was obviously a problem for the whole retail sport shoe business, and it was a problem for Bob Anderson, which he created. So he changed. And he changed to a star rating. So instead of having a number one on the number two shoe, you could be five stars, four stars, three stars, whatever. And five stars meant you could have four, maybe more shoes, then five star shoes, that would be, and guess what? I knew I had to make a five star shoe. I knew, I could do that, making a number one shoe, to be a gamble, because you know, the number one shoe, when you've got night key, new balance, atomic, and there were a lot of, there's a lot of competition on, on the market. But I knew, I knew we'd get a five star shoe. And by 1978, we'd made Aztec, and Aztec was to become a five star shoe. Aztec, we tested out, and they, the Commonwealth Games in Edmonton. We got a, a bucket load of medals. We did really well in Edmonton. And then, in February, February 1979, the shoe addition for Runners World Conduct in August, and, but running is getting that big now that, I get, came out, came out from along, and they said, we want £25,000. Oh, well, our factory, little factory back in England, we could, and take us six months. That's six months for our project. But we knew that, we knew, you know, we knew if we got a five star shoe, and that's what we, we were absolutely certain we could do, we knew we need help. And I had, I'd friends in the industry, and one of my friends was a barter, and barter said, yeah, we'll help. We can make your shoes. But then, came out said, yeah, but, we need a better price. Oh, that we were off. Also, we were worried, the fact that the whole business would go into the Far East, that they could make less than half the price we could make them. Right. But I had a contact in London, who was, who was sourcing from the Far East. So again, we could meet them, if we got a five star shoe. Right. That's great. So also, they, I just want to take a second and thank the sponsor of today's episode, Manly Bands. Guys, engagement season is in full swing. jewelry stores are going to be filled with rooms that are nervous throwing words around like cut, clarity, color. And in the middle of all of this chaos, it is super easy to forget about your band. Manly Bands is here to make your band buying experience way easier. And don't, they're not going to put you through the stress that you went through when you had to figure out hers. Manly Bands offers you the freedom for your hand to look how you want it. They have roughly every type of earthy material available and even some from space. 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But if you don't meet the turnover that they require for a square footage in the stores, that'll be your first store and your last store. Paul Famer liked him. And he could see. He could see by the way. He was rather tired of the same business he'd been in for 10 years. He's in the business with his brother and his brother was selling tents. For the last numerous years. He said joke. I loved to be distributed. We need a fire star. Paul said, come on Joe. That's not a fire star shoe yet. Not yet. This is going to be a plot. I believe it, but we really need it to be five-star shoe and I did find it. So we went our ways and I visited the states. I went to CK Mart, they were in Detroit and I went home to see Paul. Paul picked me up from the airport, took me to his Boston Camping, nice outfit, great stuff, nice little business here, and then Paul came to the UK. He was really disappointed with the size of our factory. When he said, yeah, it's more effective. I said, don't worry Paul, we've got realism about this. The factory is, this is how we make our starting life. I wanted to go to see, to some races, to see how many Reebok shoes were sort of around. It doesn't take to be a genius to understand that every race we took into was won by Reebok. I don't use 25% of the people taking part were in Reebok. But I guess Paul also knew that. But at least it proved to him that Reebok was around and that was great. So we're waiting for the August edition, for the initial edition. This was out the last week in July and I formed Paul. It was probably a bit early in the morning because I think it was about midday in the UK which will be up 7 o'clock in the morning in Boston. So it was a bit dull as I said, Paul. Like London's world edition will be out there. Can you nip down to one of the kiosk and find out how we did it? Oh, all right. And now a later, a later Paul came back into the job. I said, you're five stars. Paul, fantastic. Yes, be smart, smile that round. That's it. And as I think was a trainer and that was a volume shoe that he said, you also got five stars for Inca, which was a spike shoe and also for Midas, which was a racing shoe. So we got three fire star shoes that enter the US market. Amazing. And then obviously that's when supply chain came out. All this stuff is starting to come together and then now you can fulfill. I think you can fulfill all these 25,000 plus orders. And that was the first major sort of like foray into the US market. So that was the first successful for it, right? Successful reaction. Not the first foray. By the end, there's a guy in California. There's a guy for the Delphiro Cincinnati. I had a guy in Cincinnati. Oh, I'd been on all the place. We tried very hard to get in. So the difference was a bit like we're saying with a British sports trade. I had to make them want me by going to the athlete. And this occasion, the hook was a five star shoe. When we got a five star shoe and it became something big in the world, that was it. The demand was that we'd got the hook. So that was the big difference for us to get into the American market, which was fantastic. But okay, so I'm dashing across the Atlantic again, going to see Paul again picked me up and we got a drive down to his office. And I said, well, Boston camp him. Oh, we quit. But they just stopped the business. That was it. I knew he didn't. He wasn't that keen. But I thought this would be a bullshunt to the business. It would be nice to know Paul to Reebok. His brother went making wallets, snap wallets. We'll call it a time with a fabric. And his brother-in-law had owned a second-hand car. But all of a sudden, I think, oh, we're okay. So this is Paul. This is Reebok. Okay. So that is a star. That's amazing. But I mean, it took a lot of guts from Paul to do that. But he was awfully very hungry. He obviously needed something. He needed to get out of what he was in. And in a way, that problem was better. The fact that, you know, this had to succeed. Yes, now, yeah, it got his whole attention. Most of the guys had been with before trying things. They all had an income. No, they all were working at something. And this would be something they'd try. So I guess when he got tough, it was easy. It's not working for me. And so we pulled out. Right. Now we have a nice business. And it's going great. But we had a guy down in LA, Arnold Martinez. And Arnold's wife is... He was a tech rep and he used to go around and you know a tech rep. Just shows you know what you can do with the shoe. He was a good athlete himself. I think he'd once done a trial for the Olympics. But I don't think he'd quite made it. But his wife is coming home after being to aerobic classes. And she's following it. She's got a friend with them. They were all full of discipline. And I said, what are you doing? She said, well, these aerobic classes, they're fantastic. They kind of had aerobics. What's that? And she said, well, it's exercise to music. Oh, well, next time we go, I've got to come down and I will look at what you're doing, what you did. What is he? He's an instructor. We're in trainers. After class, we're in trainers. The rest, just in her feet. And I think that was a fantastic light bulb moment for her. Why don't we make a shoe specifically for all these girls? Wow, this would be good. So Anna is on the next flight to Boston to meet Paul Feynman. And he said, Paul, Paul, look, it's a fantastic thing. This is new. It's really going to be fantastic. And it's going down in the center of the girls. And Paul is saying, whoa, slow down. What do you mean? You want us to make shoes for you? Yeah, yeah. No, look, we're a running company. We're doing very nicely. We're running. And we're growing very nicely. Why do we need to think about making a few shoes for some girls down there in L.A. And Anna is saying, look, honest Paul, this is going to be big. Paul said, come down. Don't worry. Anna wasn't put off though. He went to the bank door. He went to see Steve Ligger. Steve Ligger was in charge of manufacturing. And he was very persuasive, obviously, because he persuaded Steve to produce 200 pairs of shoes, specifically for women, on a woman's last. Okay, he got his shoes. He went back down to L.A. and he gave these shoes to the instructors and to some of the girls out there. And they love them. I absolutely love them. Few manufacturing problems to begin with because we were using glove leather and glove leather just turns too easily. So it had to be backed up with nylon and different things. But anyway, the girls in L.A. didn't worry. If they only got three, four weeks out of it, they'd go a pint of the pear. They'll love them. And then James Fonda, she started doing her videos. Fitness videos were in Reebok. And she'd obviously bought them. But wow. But the girls weren't just wearing them for aerobics. They were going to work in them. They were going out in them. They were enjoying life. And all of a sudden, this thing just exploded. We were a nine million dollar company by then. That was our revenue. The year later, we were $30 million. Then $90 million. Very impressive. And then $90 million. And then $90 million. So in four years, we've grown from almost zero. $9 million to $900 million. It was a fantastic problem. I was going to say, I was going to say, it's just, it's an incredible story. But how many years did it take you to get to that $9 million? 20, 20, whatever. Yes. Something like a slow burn to begin with. Yeah. But then, but then when it hits, it hits. Do you think? Do you? And what do you think? What do you think led to? Because obviously you were correct in assuming the US was an impressive market. I don't think anyone would disagree knowing now. But what do you think really led to your success? Was it a certain mindset at the people that worked in the organization? To try new things? Or was it just perseverance, tenacity? Was it aligning with the right people? In your opinion, what do you think led to that success? Well, I mean, you mentioned it yourself. It took 20 years to get to that. And then an absolute rocket for five years. And then a bit of a loan. But it takes perseverance. You're quite right. That 20 years, you go through numerous pieces of hell. And back again. But you know, you've got to keep positive. And you've got to keep going. Yeah. Yeah. When one door shots, another door opens. And you've got to keep pushing and doing it. And I think it's all that determination. Because, okay, when we got there and then when we got the Rolex, it wasn't a matter of where do you get the next order from. It was a matter of how do we, how do we fulfill these orders? This was fantastic. What was happening? It's like, okay, maybe from nine to 30 million ones to be jump as far as product was concerned. But when he got from 300 to 900, that's a managed. And so there's a degree of luck here. And when you're having that success, also your team is feeling right. It's feeling good. The right people join you. And you have a culture. You have that winning culture. Which have a way, you know, you brush aside the problems. But luck came along in many, many times in many different ways. Okay, you can say we had bad luck in certain ways. But, you know, we changed our name. We've re-blocked Breton and Mercury. We think so. I did this after four years of being in business, complain because we had two stripes in a T-bar. And we were worried, yeah, there was a letter. And you know, we're not in business for years. And the lawyers were also letter. And we, you know, for five minutes, we were destroyed. And then we thought, just a minute. I didn't just know we're here. Then we were around. You know, they think we're a bit of a challenge because they don't like what we're doing. That's great. Okay. That's great. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That happened. And for 20 years, that rule was slow. But I was knocking on that door for 10 11 years. I need this market. I need this market. Yeah. If I'd gone too soon, maybe we'd have missed a running market. I don't know. You know, would we have seen the of rubbish market? Would we have had alcohol? So the timing is the timing. And that's, you know, if you're alone, if you're around long enough, maybe the time in is there all the time. Maybe you will run into the timing, but you know, we were the the time it was right and uh, uh, during that massive growth, uh, we, we were lucky. 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So yes, a lot of stick with it, just stick with it, you have a belief that you could do it. You know, maybe clever people think this is, you know, I can do something easier. I don't know. Yeah, but it was a fantastic ride. Yeah, it was absolutely fabulous. And the fact that we had this tremendous growth down in Los Angeles, Hollywood, Tukedon, from Jane Farm, that we got lots of stars in the shoes, and then we started to do the Princess Grace tennis tournaments in Monte Carlo. And all the stars were coming in there, even Frank Sinatra came in on one occasion to be part of this show, and it was great. So we got to know so many stars, and they were influencers, and in those days all we needed to do was to take them to Monte Carlo, give them shoes, and we were seeing everyone. So yes, we were influencing, we were influencing street, we were becoming fashion. And really today, that's where Reebok, Nike, and Adidas are, they're fashion companies. And influencers, now influencing is a profession, people make a lot of money out of just influencing. So life has changed, and you know, we now have this, I used to travel miles and miles and I must have had too many of our miles. All I had was a bunch of American Express travelers checks, and I jumped onto Pan Am or TWA in those days, and I fly wherever the next exhibition was shown, or people I was interested in meet it, and it was going around. And I left the company, I retired at the end of 1989, because at that time I put on America, I put on 30 other different distributors around the world, and I got to the point where I'm at 35,000 feet, for most of the month, and I picked up at the airport by a limousine, and I'm taking to the best of ours, and we dine at the best restaurants, but I'm thinking, no, the challenge is over, you know, this is another challenge, I need to, I need to sort of move backwards, which I did, but you know, the story I tell on moving out of Reebok is one of the Eagles, and Hotel California, you can check out, you can never leave, you can never leave, you can never leave, and so I'm still sort of very, very much involved with Reebok people, and now since Adidas is selling the company, it's going to be a very interesting future, so looking forward to that. Yeah, no likewise, and thank you for, you know, really going into detail about the story, but also providing some insights, just some of the lessons you learned over your career, it was a hard run, it was like a hard run for sure, but I think that some of the things that you've learned are like universally applicable to entrepreneurs, and I think it's just some very smart lessons there that people are looking to do their own thing, you need to put in that grind, you need to put in that time before, you know, I think a lot of people actually make something of their business before the 20-year mark, so I think you actually had it more difficult than most, but still there's a lesson there for sure. What was I going to say, did you ever, I want to finish with some rapid fire questions just to bring us some insight from you, on top of obviously all this stuff that we've already spoken about, but just a question, have you, did you ever at any point think of giving up or quitting, or was this just what you were dead set on doing? I think you have to be dead set. I think if you've gone hesitancy, if it gave you a problem, you know, can I be very early? I think it's something you just got to be probably blinded by, something that is just a, you make all this stupid, it probably was. My wife used to say to me, why don't you get a decent job? And I'm saying, you know, I'd like to have a question, sometimes. So I think you, if you have any hesitancy, I think it's, I think that's fatal. I think you've got to have full belief. And certainly if you're going to take the 20 years, well, you're going to, you know, even though some of the times it was only small increments, some of the time we were nearly out of business, when our, when our UK distributor went out of business and nearly took us out of business as well. You know, there are some of those days where you wonder, but, you know, we have a strong feeling of winning, you know, we, we were there and they say, the race isn't over until you've won. Yeah. So you just keep going and then that was our attitude. And Jeff, Jeff looked to work in the factory. Unfortunately, he died, he died just as we got to America with just got the agreement, just with his going with a poll, but he died of stomach cancer. He was a runner, but he used to run too far, too much, pushed himself too hard. And I think that probably causes problems, but at that point things did change. It was difficult, but you get by and, you know, I was never left with the feeling, what do I do next? I was always left with the feeling it's a change. I've got to change something and keep moving and I think that's it. I guess it could be bad if you're desolate and you sit down and you don't know what to do. You know, I think fortunately, I always had an answer, I always had something to try, something else. We'll keep going. And so keeping going was the essential thing. And then when you get the rewards, I mean, the rewards we had were tremendous. And the journey was fantastic and meeting all those people and doing things, it was incredible. That's it, you know, we got lucky. Amazing. All right, I want to go through some rapid fire questions for you. And you can go as short as long as you'd like on these. The biggest challenge that you have experienced over your career and how did you overcome it? It could have been a personal or business. What is one that stood out? I guess the biggest challenge really was when when Jeff died. I guess that was the fact that there were two things that came out of it. One, I was destroyed and I lost a brother and I worked with him. But the other side was, you know, if there was any decisions, anything that I had to discuss with people, because your wives become part of a team when there's two of you and three of you. Now, all of a sudden, this became me 100%. So the benefit, you know, it doesn't that way the problems that I'd have wished that Jeff could have been here. Even today, you know, he would have been two years old me, he would have been 88. But you've got to then take those decisions. So that was the biggest thing in my life was taking decisions immediately and changing things. Not a lot, but changing so I could work with it. So that was the biggest one. Very good. Who would be one person and then maybe the same answer, I don't know, so excuse me if I'm just reiterating the same question, but I was going to ask you, one person who's had the biggest impact on your life and what did they teach you? Well, there were a number of people who had impacts on my life and probably the biggest impact was when we were very small and I'm going around to options because the shoe industry in the UK, it was being destroyed because things were coming in far east and so there were too much competition from the various price wise and companies were going out of business and all their businesses were being auctioned off and I used to go around to the options to see if I could buy cheap shoes or anything whatever and I met a man there who, he was there on every one of the sales, any other rather large factory about 10 miles, 15 miles away from where we were in Berry and we got talking and I just told him I had trouble on the option before, I bought too much leather and my van that I was in was like more like a speedboat, trying to go up the motorway and the police had pulled me over and said no no, come on, and wait a minute, I was too heavy, so I got a fine, I told the guy was called John Willie Johnson and I told John about this, I said John last time, he said don't bother he said if you buy anything, my men will pick it up, he had a truck and he would do the sale, he would tell the men to go down and pick up, my men will pick stuff up and he said why don't we go together next time and I said okay I'll pick you up and he said no no we'll go in my car, he'd seen my car, I wanted to go to this place and he took me through his factory, he knew everybody's name, everybody on every machine and he asked how the wife was and the children and then I said John what do you do with all this stuff that you buy at these sales because he didn't buy anything, if the auctioneer couldn't find a buyer he would look down at John and John would just nod and that would become his, it could be anything and he had stuff birds, he'd buy a stuff bird which was in the office or even stuff crocodile, you know, he'd say everything, I said what do you do with it, what do you do with it, come on out of it, he went into it, he had another large building just full of everything he'd just bought all this stuff and considering it he probably bought it next to nothing, he was probably, did he want it, no he didn't want it but on the occasion he'd found stuff for you and I spotted a machine in the corner, apparently not a machine which towards you wouldn't understand the pattern of machine unless you're in the shoe industry but it knocks the wrinkles out of it when you've lasted at all, it knocks all the wrinkles out so it looks nice and smooth and I said to him John, I said that machine, can I buy it off of you? he said no, oh, can I rent it then, no, oh okay John, he said, you can have it, did, just give him the bike when you've done with it, oh thank you John and not only that, his men brought the machine down to our small factory put it on the production line, why did I set it going and any time I wanted a machine I could go along and if John had one, you can have it, just let me have it by when you've done it, so for me that was one of the guy would he would help, he would give, he was so generous that whatever I wanted if I'd have asked him for anything, I'm sure I think he almost went out of his way to buy a property because we were looking to change from, and he almost, and I said no, no, it's okay, we found one for him we've got yeah, but he was just so generous, so that generosity, I'm not seen in anybody, but it was amazing, no that's incredible, that is truly incredible, if you could tell your 20 year old self one thing, what would that thing be? A problem with advice when you're 20 is don't listen to much, don't listen to advice, believing yourself, if you listen to advice, you'll probably not do it because most advice is to tell you the downsides, not the upsides, most people with their advice, you know, they'd be the fail in doing what they're, or they're succeeded in doing something else, and that advice probably won't, probably won't relate to what you're trying to do, you know, because they'll tell you all the problems, and you know, it's sort of be careful with your advice, just trusting yourself, trusting the fact that you're young, yeah, you've indestructed, I love that, from what can go wrong, yeah, and if it does, pick yourself up, start again, that's the important thing, I'm 20 years old, yes, young, so long, what would be besides besides your own, what would be a book or a podcast that you'd recommend people go check out, recent podcast is Sneakonomics, I don't know if you've heard of economics, no, I haven't, that's a new one, yeah, well look it up on Twitter, don't you, no, it's on Spotify or Apple, Spotify or what, Apple or BBC, Spotify, Apple or BBC, it's made by the BBC and it's called Sneakonomics, yeah, I started it, at some point, good, okay, that's a good one, I've never heard about it, that's okay, that's great, so we'll put that in the show notes too, so what do you speak about, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, I don't know, it's quite a lot of it, and it's just really a documentary, if you will, and a lot of it is about the Adidas Puma fighting, and then the Adidas fight with Nike, and that, and it brings Reebok in, so, and they did jump at times that bit where I pick up my dictionary, okay, wow, you're so, why am I getting an addiction, and it really is very interesting, we found it very interesting, but maybe, maybe, but I would, I would just, this is a great recommendation, thank you, that's a new one, and then last question, and then I'm going to get some socials and some website links from you, but what does success mean to you, Tom? I joined, I was, I was, I was asked, one of the most three more important things that you do in your business, and it was, have fun, and then have more fun, and have a lot more fun, because if you're not having fun, yeah, I'm enjoying it, so I think success is something that, I don't say you'll expect it, it is a bonus, it is something that you worked so long that you can look back on, and have the satisfaction of saying, yeah, I enjoyed that, that was really good. Amazing, and then most importantly, so where can people go find shoemaker, your website, your social, all of that, and then we'll also put it in the show notes. We're on all the social platforms, that's LinkedIn, Twitter, Facebook, Facebook, Instagram, we're on all those, as Reebok The Founder, Reebok The Founder. You can find us, you can find a book, good bookshops, all good bookshops, or an Amazon, Amazon have the book, they have it in, or they have the book, they have the Kindle, and they also have audio. Perfect, perfect, okay, so Reebok The Founder, and then, and then, Amazon Kindle, anywhere they want to go find books, and we'll link all those links below. Anyway, perfect. All right, that's all I got, that's perfect, thank you so much. Thank you so much Scott, it's been a pleasure, and I hope people get a bit inspired, and I know from people who tell us that they enjoyed the book, because they did inspire them, and it wasn't written to inspire people, it was written to tell the story, and I'm really delighted with it. If a story inspires, if a story inspires, then it's just a very good story. That's a good bonus, too, that's fantastic. So, we don't have to get less to number one, and best sell it on the American market, that's what the next target is. You'll get there, I have no doubt you'll get there, because if you put 20 years in to dominating a shoe industry, I have a feeling that getting a book to a number one best seller is going to be easy work for you, but like, you know, like you said, you're not going to give up until you get there anyways, so this is a little bit. We're going to stop to move on. Thanks a little, thank you Scott, been a pleasure.