Bonnie Marcus, Author of Not Done Yet | Empowering Women of Any Age to Excel in Their Career

Thanks again for joining me. Today I'm sitting down with Bonnie Marcus. Bonnie Marcus has an extensive background. She's worked as a CEO of Service Master. She has several executive positions, VP sales, medical staffing network, as well as two other national companies in the healthcare and software industries. She's held executive positions in startup companies, Fortune 500 companies, currently. She is a certified coach, speaker. She hosts her own podcast, so go check that out, badass woman at NEH, and she is the author of the politics of promotion, how high achieving women get ahead and stay ahead, as well as the book we're going to dive into today, which is not done yet. She also contributes to various publications, most notably Forbes amongst others. So Bonnie, thank you for sitting down. I'm excited to get into this, so introduce yourself. Give us a little bit of a background about where you came from and what you're doing. Okay, thank you for that introduction, Scott. Well, I think what most people don't understand or know about me is that I really had no intention of getting into business at all. And I have a master's degree in education, and I was a kindergarten teacher, and my kids were probably six and eight when I got a divorce, and teaching income was really not going to cut it. So I started to look for a nine to five job, and I found this job for a medical secretary locally where I lived in Connecticut at the time. And I threw my hat in the ring, they called me in to interview me, and I was like, this is so perfect. This is nine to five. I can be with my kids. I don't have to worry about homework, all this stuff. I thought the interview went well, but they told me that they weren't interested in bringing me on and training me, and I was overqualified, and so I wasn't going to get the job. I practically begged them, as a matter of fact, you know, I need, I just want a nine to five job. But two weeks later, Scott, they called me, and they said, we're starting this new joint venture with 30 docs and a healthcare management company to open up a cardiac rehab center. And that management company is coming to town next week, and they're looking to hire an administrator for this. And would you be interested? Immediately. Oh, yeah. Right. I just jumped right on it. And then I realized, Bonnie, you have zero qualifications for this job. You know, you're teaching aerobics and you're teaching kindergarten. Anyway, I went for the interview, and I certainly didn't fake that I was qualified. But I did position myself well, apparently, as somebody who could learn and who was smart enough to take this on, and they hired me. Oh my God, they hired me. And they trained me. And in a year and a half, I was running 11 of those centers for that management company up and down the East Coast in the U.S. So I mean, that was my entree into business, and I had no intention of doing that. From there, I've had a very successful career. It wasn't necessarily, you know, people say, oh, you started entry level, you ended up in the C-suite. Well, you know, it doesn't happen like that where you immediately go one step above the other until you reach the top. So there were a few missteps along the way. There were a few times that I was passed over, a few lateral moves to get back on track. But I did end up with a 20 plus year career that was very successful. In 2007, I ended up through a whole big long story, which I won't go into, living on an island off the coast of Massachusetts, Martha's Vineyard. And here I was running a really large national sales force trying to do it from this little airport. And after a while, I just said, I just can't do this anymore. So I gradually got out of that job by becoming a 1099 and then decreasing my hours, going back and getting certified to be an executive coach and starting to take on clients. And I started my business Women's Success Coaching in 2007. It is now Bonnie Marcus Leadership dot com LLC. My mission from that point forward has been to help professional women position themselves for advancement and for success. Because over the time that I was in corporate, in that arena, I recognized that there were so many talented women who were passed over because they didn't know how to advocate for themselves. They didn't know how to navigate the complexities of the workplace. They were so focused with their head down on doing their work and thinking, oh, that's the way I'm going to get ahead. And so I figured, you know what, these women need a wake up call and I'm going to help them, I'm going to give them the tools to do that. So that's how I started my coaching practice in 2015. I wrote a book about all that called The Politics of Promotion, which was giving women the tools to really navigate the workplace and position themselves for success. And that's the path that I've been on. This recent book not done yet, how women over 50 regain their confidence and claim workplace power is again a book to help women. Now it's a slightly different demographic. But the advice that I offer is pretty similar to what I have always offered. It's just that now I feel that women are much more vulnerable in this demographic and need to be much more focused on things that they need to do to keep marketable. So that the career progression makes a lot of sense. It's a very impressive story because I think that what you actually did when you pivoted from teaching and you got into corporate, that's something that is tough for people. You know, you said you didn't fake it, but you definitely went in, you presented yourself and then it's like, you know, you're building the plane after what's the term you jump and then you learn how to fly, excuse me. So that it happens and I think a lot of people, I think that's how a lot of people's careers progress and you've done it successfully and obviously, you know, you appropriately took on what the role was and then now 20 years later, you know, and you had this successful career. But what prompted you besides the fact that it was difficult running a global sales team virtually or remotely from when you're at Martha's Vineyard? Was it just you said you saw other women, what prompted you to say, I'm going to go be an entrepreneur because that's already a scary step. So I, you know, I'm trying to get into your psyche because you take these risks that aren't easy to start a coaching business, right? How many people, how many coaches out there and to say, you know, I've been a, I've been a kindergarten teacher, I've succeeded in corporate, now I'm going to go start my own business. So what was the thought process? What, how did you do that? What were the steps? Well, first of all, um, flight correction, I wasn't remotely managing that large sales force because at the time I needed to be on a plane, I needed to be somewhere every week. And it was just ridiculous to try to get, to manage the travel logistically. So that was one thing where, you know, I saw the writing on the wall, I just, I can't do this. Um, it doesn't make sense to do this. And I've always enjoyed mentoring my direct reports, uh, and empowering them to be there best. And it just seemed like, you know, a natural transition. When I first looked into coaching, people had no idea what it was. It was like, oh, you know, you're coaching soccer, you're doing, you know, it was like sports is all they could think of. Uh, and then when I, you know, re looked at it in 2007, uh, by then coaching and professional certification programs were, were, um, much more prevalent. And there was much more, I think, respect for the profession, but it was, uh, a leap, for sure, because for anybody who's been in corporate or been employed, the safety, and I can't say it's totally safe because it isn't necessarily. But, you know, you have some job security. You get benefits, you get used to having your, you know, having a salary and then all of a sudden you're, wow, now I'm starting from scratch and something totally new. And sometimes I, you know, when I've taken these leaps through my career and now that I recognize that was pretty brave. I, I didn't stop to think about it a lot. I mean, I had, in other words, I didn't stop to think about, uh, how scary it was or whether or not I could do it. That was never the issue, but I did think about strategically whether it made sense. I did put a plan in place for how to make that transition, uh, so that I could do it without too much disruption. So now, obviously, you've been very successful in this transition, which has now happened many years in the past. So, um, let's, let's fast forward to, to, you know, what you're living and breathing every single day, which is both helping women in promotion and achieving, you know, a greater, greater success in their career, but also helping women over a certain age group. So let's, let's talk about that a little bit, um, because I think that's sort of what, that's what you're coaching and you're consulting and you're mentoring really revolves around. So what are the issues that we see? Let's, let's just describe the issues that we see. So everybody, there's a lot of conversation about this, but I think that somebody who works in this can really nail what issues are women, uh, are confronted with, um, what are some things that, uh, perhaps men take for granted that, um, don't come so easy to women. And let's, let's talk through some of those and then we can speak about some of the fixes and the solutions that you, you probably highlight in the book, obviously, but also some of the things that you teach over to people. Okay, so first of all, women for decades have been dealing with gender bias in the workplace. We don't have the same opportunities for advancement. We lack sponsorship, we are not paid equally, um, and we also suffer the motherhood penalty. Uh, now of course there's, there's more flexibility, there's parental leave in some cases, better maternity leave, but certainly when I was entering the workplace and the women who are over 50 that, that didn't happen. So for decades, we've been dealing with, uh, gender bias and trying our best to, um, deal with that and still be successful in, in the workplace. What happens when women start to show visible signs of aging? They now suffer what I call the double whammy of both gender bias and ageism. And what happens is that women are marginalized. Nobody seeks out their opinions anymore. They're not invited to key meetings, often their portfolios, their workload is redistributed. And that's based on our society's emphasis on looks, it's called lookism, right? Our, our looks, the pressure to feed, to be young and, um, young and attractive. And it's really based on whether, you know, our visible changes, which infuriates me, right? Um, what happens is men, of course, have ageist issues as well. But research, especially from, uh, catalyst, there's a trend brief that shows that, that women face ages a much earlier than men. And it is based solely on, um, on appearance. So we are much more vulnerable then to being, um, not only marginalized, but pushed out. And then the issue becomes okay, now you're over 50, you're being pushed out, then it's so much more difficult to get another job. So the women that I interviewed, uh, for this book, some of them were, you know, had panic attacks that people are going to find out how old they are. And they have Botox and fillers and, I live surgery in hopes that they can extend their career trajectory. Um, and, um, survive for longer. I mean, this issue, I think, is, is beneath the radar. And I think a lot of people don't understand how this affects women's financial security, as well as their career trajectories. And one, one reason why I wrote the book is I wanted to bring more awareness to this issue. I wanted to give women a voice to deal with it and, and also the tools. And my, my question to you is, why is this, why is this not more prevalent or why is this not more discussed? Because if you, if you look at the topical issues of the day, they sort of run in different trends, like where, of course, you have to have unrepresented minorities have more of a seat at the table and fill more executive positions. And then now we're talking about women who we would have hoped at this point in God forbid 2021, there wouldn't be as many issues. But I guess my point is, like, how do you get this message out there? How do you, how do you, I don't mean, it's not insensitive, but prove that this is something that is still relevant because I think it slips people's minds. I think that you see it, but it's not in your face all the time. I just, you know, I just, I've had lots of conversations about a lot of underrepresented populations. And I think that, yes, I've seen, especially in sales, I'm in sales, I'm in tech. In every job I've ever worked, there's definitely an underrepresentation of women. But I don't know why that is. I don't, it just seems like less apply, less look for the jobs, let, you know, and it doesn't seem like it's something that me as an executive has the ability to fix. And I know, obviously, I'm speaking, I'm saying I do have the ability to fix it, but how do I actually fix it when I'm in that position? And I don't see the women stepping forward to take those jobs that I would give them if they applied. Or am I just being completely ridiculous and saying that? Hey, everyone, Scott here. Just want to press pause on today's episode and thank our sponsor get mister. You can find them at get mister.com. Let me show you why I was so excited when they reached out. So if you're like me, you're getting older, you, your skin, you don't really take care of it as much as you should. You perhaps use moisturizer once in a while. You use sunscreen once in a while. Maybe if you're shaving, you're using aftershave, but you're not religious about this. There's too many lotions out there, too many variants. You don't put on sunscreen every time you should. You don't moisturize when you should. Your skin's getting dry. It's aging out. 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You're the host of this podcast and you have, you know, you have your own, you have your own experience in this area. I mean, you know, for, for decades, women have suffered in tech. And for those who did go to grad school in STEM fields, many of them drop out, you know, because they they're suffering due to the gender bias. And I've had clients in STEM fields where it is so male dominated. The gender bias is still so prevalent, the unequal, the unfair playing field that they, you know, they'll go someplace else. They'll they'll change industries. But to your point about bringing more awareness to it, I talk about this issue and I draw some some similarities to what it was like for women before the Me Too movement. It dealing with sexism in the in the workplace. Women were silent. They felt ashamed to come forward and talk about any kind of sexual harassment or abuse. They didn't feel that there was a safe environment for them to have these kinds of discussions. And they certainly didn't have any kind of legal backing to really do so. And it was off everybody's radar because women were silent. I find the same things happening with gendered ageism. Right now, women have been, especially the women I interviewed, who insisted they be anonymous, by the way, in the book for the most part, are ashamed to come forward and say, you know what, I'm 62 years old and I'm being subjected to these demeaning remarks and that they don't want to call attention to themselves for fear of backlash. They don't feel safe. There isn't a safe environment to talk about it. And so it's really off the radar. And I think that bringing more awareness to it, having gendered ageism be included in unconscious bias training and in corporate trainings to help people understand that this is a real issue for women is important. As well as, you know, how do you deal with it on an individual basis because any of our bias starts with us first. So that, you know, the point that I discussed before, I agree with everything. I agree with absolutely everything you're saying. I was just thinking, I've been in the position where I've been hiring. And I guess what I'm trying to say is, how do I change so that I can find more candidates that I can bring in so I can even the playing field? And if that's something or a tool or a strategy that a company can adopt, maybe it's bringing into the bias training and the unconscious bias training. Well, I mean, part of that bias training is usually to do an assessment of all your policies and practices. And some of that may be the way you word your job searches. And this can be really an eye opener when somebody else objectively looks at it and says, well, you know, you're really the way you're using that word that words are important and it's kind of subtle. But so if you're not getting those applicants, that's the first place to look. And a lot of corporations that go through bias training and unconscious bias training, those are some of the things that they look at. And some of them are subtle, you know? No, I think that that's a great advice and that's something that, you know, I'm going to internalize as well and just in the things that I do when I'm looking to hire for roles and whatnot. Because I've I've just noticed like without even paying attention to it, when I put out a role for a sales leader or a sales individual, it's like 99 percent male. And I think most I think most leaders would love love more would love more females brought into the workforce. There's so many benefits to bringing people that don't have that traditional sales bro culture. That's not a positive culture for any organization. But how do you get rid of that if you find that 99 percent of the applicants are all fitting that mold? And you're right, it's how do you word the job searches? How do you represent yourself as a company? How do you conduct the interviews to screening? Who's doing the interviews in the screening? Are you bringing up the right points? But it's something that, you know, people don't think they have a bias until someone else points it up, right? And that's really important. One of the things that I talk about a lot in the book is to do some self reflection and identify your own bias because that's the, I mean, for instance, gendered ageism, ageism in general, so ingrained in our culture that we don't realize that we've internalized a lot of this stuff. And I recognize certainly when I was writing this book and going through, you know, how to coach women to do this, I realize, well, gee, I mean, you got a whole list of ages things that you're dealing with as well. So I think it's important to really start there. And from a company perspective, the leaders need to do that. They need to, you know, not just gendered ageism, but gender bias and some of the things that you're talking about. How do the leaders feel about these things? What are some of the biases that they hold? And how does that affect their communication, their behavior, as well as policies and practices in the business? Yeah. And I would say it's even something that, as a leader, if you're conscious of it and you're aware that it's an issue, it should be something that you should be interviewing the existing leadership for if you're looking to move into a new organization to make sure that aligns because if there's some hard-coded ingrained biases in the CEO, C-suite, and you're going in at a VP level and you want to shake things up, that is going to make for a very unfun working environment for even yourself if you'd like to make change. So these are all part of the things you have to, you know, you make sure there's culture fit. You make sure that the comp is there, all the things that you always check, and then check to make sure that your convictions are also aligned with the existing leadership team. And that's something that I don't think I've ever done in my career, but it's something that you should do. And as a woman, you know, I mean, I will coach my female clients to really try to get as much, do as much homework as they can about an organization. And how many female leaders are there? And do they come from, have they been promoted from within? Because that's another key indicator that shows that whether or not that company really supports and gives women the resources that they need to be successful. So doing the homework is really important to your point. Very, very, very interesting stuff. Let's flip the lens and let's look at it through the applicant, the person who's trying to move into another position, get back into a new job, re-enter the workforce whatever it may be. How can they, because there's like a, I was looking through the, each chapter is obviously its own point about how you can do something and how you can sort of combat this almost like this internal, I don't, I guess, imposter syndrome is, or just this, this internal thing that's holding you back from applying or doing the next great thing in your career. Every chapter discusses a different thing that you can do. So pick your favorites, pick your most impactful things that a woman at a certain age should focus on that would help her land that next job, re-enter the workforce. What would those things be? Well, there are a lot of things, and as you said, all the chapters in the book talk about them, but I'm going to start with, you know, from 10,000 feet and say that one of the most important things you should do is check your mindset. And if you believe you're too old to get another job or too old to compete or too old to get promoted, if you have a negative outlook, then you are sabotaging yourself from the get go. And in the book actually in one chapter, I talk about two different women with two different career paths, but they were both really successful, they were both let go. One of them had a very positive attitude about finding another job. She had been in financial services for 25 years and was downsized and it was ageism, right? For sure. And she started running and getting fit and she found a workspace and of course started networking and found a workspace and would go there every day and look for a job because finding a new job, I don't care how old you are, is a full-time job. And she eventually landed something in a whole different industry, but now she has another whole new successful career after 50, right? Then there's this other woman who was an attorney who was let go from her law firm and she took a government job and she's in a dead end. And when I was speaking to her, anything that I suggested about using your network and understanding your value proposition and positioning yourself, she was negative about. Now if you look at those stories side by side, you can see that one is set up to be successful, the other is going to stay in that so that's why I say yeah, there are lots of things that I can teach and that I can help you with so that you secure another job, but you have to check your mindset first. Some of the other things that are really important are to understand that value proposition, which is how your work contributes to positive business outcomes. And when you understand that, Scott, it allows you to position yourself as somebody who can help this new organization reach their objectives and move forward. You want to honor your wisdom and your experience, you know, where you've been for X amount of years in your past for sure, but I tell my clients don't necessarily dwell on all that. Really, you want to show up its fresh and energize and excited about what you bring to the table now and how you can help an organization move forward. That's what a prospective employer is looking for. They don't want you to sit there and recite your resume that they already have, right? But what can you do for them? And that is, you know, that is very, very empowering and very authentic and very effective way to position yourself in an interview. You know, building and nurturing your network. One thing that I disclose in the book is that after that initial job, every job that I got after that, you know, obviously internal promotions not included, but every job I got was a referral from my network. People that, including the CEO job, it was people who had worked with me that I stayed in touch with who were willing to put my name forward and advocate for me. It's so important, especially in this environment now, because you go to apply for a job and, you know, it's usually online and you throw in your cover letter and you're thrown in with a whole bunch of people and it's really hard to distinguish yourself. It's really tough. I mean, I don't care what age you are. Yeah, it is. It's really tough. But if you've got somebody who makes an introduction and opens a door for you and that's really the story of my career, then you definitely have a leg up. So those are some things that I would emphasize. Okay, and now those are very good points. Bonnie, this is a question that I'm curious to get your take on as well. If you feel like you see the writing on the wall and you feel like it's because of ageism, would you ever try and fight to keep that job or is that an indication that that is not the right fit for you and it would be smarter to move somewhere else? Is that something that you would advise? Well, I, you know, I couldn't generalize. I'd say it's pretty has to be specific about the situation. I think there are things that you can do and maybe you even want to do these in parallel. But I think there are things that you can do to improve your situation, to gently call out some of the unfair treatment without getting fired and improving your status. And so I would certainly stay with the job I have and try to do some of those things. And at the same time, if you feel, well, you know, that's not going to lead anywhere, you might start doing what you need to do to put out feelers for another job. One of the things that I've learned because, you know, I have no legal background here. I reached out to some employment attorneys for the chapter on knowing your rights is that if you, you are subjected to ages comments and behavior unfair practices that right from the get go, you start documenting. And if you need to seek out the counsel of an attorney, you can certainly do that. You can go to HR. But even the attorneys will say document your conversations with HR. Like I'd like to meet with you say specifically why. And then come back with a follow up like, yes, on March 12, we met to discuss how this, this, this, this, and happened happened. And you agreed to do a follow up plan and check back in a month. So everything, everything documented. The only reason I asked is it's a tough question. But the reason I asked is because if somebody sitting in a role right now where they feel like they're the victim of this, it could be incredibly scary to just make the leap into a new role. So I guess that's, it's great advice for somebody who's like in the position and suffering, but they don't know where to go, right? Because that's the worst, that's the worst kind of situation. At least if you unfortunately have been let go, there's no going back. But to be in this toxic environment is probably one of the most uncomfortable environments. Right? That could be very, very unnerving. So yeah. And that's what I was just trying to get out. Yeah, one of the reasons I had the idea of to write this was I was coaching about four years ago, a female attorney, 58 years old, worked for a large tech firm in Silicon Valley. And she had been a star performer on that legal team for eight years, 58, all of, you know, all of a sudden she's the oldest. And she noticed she wasn't invited. Her portfolio was cut back and she was worried. Well, if I don't have a heavy load here, it's so easy for me to be pushed out. So to your point, she saw the handwriting on the wall, right? And it was a very painful, painful experience. But there are things that you can do. And I would say start to document conversations, et cetera, because even if you are going to lose your job, there are negotiation points for what you can do in terms of a package. So you still have some power. And power is putting all that, that information and history together. Very good. And then I guess my last question, you know, you can, if there's any other points you wanted to bring out of the book, we can, but I think we got some really good ones. And obviously people start to go check out the book and like in all seriousness, I'm not sure how many chapters total, but there's a lot of different points in it. It looks like each chapter is its own story of a certain thing that is probably hyper relevant to somebody. So if you're dealing with anything in the workplace that sort of revolves in this, in this conversation, there's probably a chapter that addresses somebody who's dealing with it the same way and they've figured out something. Hope that's what I think this sort of book is really good for. The other point I just want to make is that we need to be proactive about this. You know, don't wait until you're pushed out. So these are things that you should be doing your whole career, but now that you're even in a vulnerable demographic, you should pay more attention to them, like upping your skills and make sure that you're top of your game, those kinds of things. So that was actually, that was my last question about this. It was in COVID. Now if people were comfortable, they're not anymore, people have been let go. They're all virtual. What would be your recommendation to fight new technology, new environment, ageism, all these biases? What would be the best possible way to upskill quickly in your opinion so that you can stay relevant and you can appear relevant to the companies that could be hiring you. Because if you've never used Zoom before, if you've never used, if you've never worked remotely, if you worked in the same position for 30 plus year. And yes, of course, it's effects women. It also definitely affects men who have a level of, you know, they're over 50 or there's there's ages issues with men who are dealing with the same thing. But what would be your recommendation for them to to help themselves? Well, I think they need to do some homework. Everybody needs to do some homework and find out what what it takes to be at the top of your game. You know, do you need to improve your skills now? And what new things do you need to learn? So you can you can take the lead here. You don't have to wait till your company says, oh, you don't know that technology you're out of here. You know, this is another area where you can be proactive. And if you're not sure, you know, ask around, do your homework, even ask your manager where, you know, are there some courses that you're offering or what would you suggest so that I can really stay marketable and and then follow up on it and don't be afraid to learn new things. Yeah, it's it's it's good advice for anybody. You know, just that proactive being proactive. It gets it goes a long way. And I actually do believe that most people just general career issues, if they just asked more, they would get more feedback, resources, paid for courses, paid for classes, like all the things that you need. Most people will actually give them to you if you ask and you and you and you seek them out. I found that across my whole career and it's no different for, you know, women, men, whatever at a certain age, like people will give you that stuff. And especially if it's to their benefit as well. Yeah. Because it improves your your job performance, your productivity. And it's very often we're afraid to ask because we think oh, it's all about me. But that's not necessarily true. You can position this like wow, I can be much more productive leading this team. If I had a course in project management or, you know, whatever. So sometimes it's the way we position the ask that also helps us get the response we want. Definitely. Okay. So I have a couple rapid fire just about your career and some career advice. Before I pivot was there anything else that you wanted to go into about the book or some of the things you're working on now? Oh, I think, I mean, the book, I'm not sure when this is going to air, but the book just launched this week. So that's really what I'm working on right now. No, I know I'll try and get. So I know the book just launched this week. So I'll try and actually get this out next week because sometimes some of these are very evergreen. But I know if you're actually launching a book, I try and expedite a little bit just so it's relevant and people can, you know, ride the wave a little bit. And anyway, so I'll get this out. I'll try and get this out like by mid next week so that you don't have to, you don't have to wait and people can listen and go pick up the book on Amazon or whatever. And actually after this, I'll just, we'll go through some links and some socials and stuff. So okay, so rapid fire. For you, what would be a lesson you would tell your younger self? Don't be afraid to take risks. Good. Good. And what would be a resource? It could be a person, a book or a podcast that you would recommend people go check out besides their own, of course. Wow. There's so many great podcasts out there. I mean, you know, one of my favorite podcasts isn't necessarily career, but it's not to be. Brane Brown's dare to lead. I actually haven't listened to that. Is there, I know, Brane Brown, but is there, is there like, is it just a really strong leadership podcast? Or what is it? What is it? It is, but it's also about what it takes to be a leader. And, you know, she focuses a lot on vulnerability and just understanding how to use your vulnerability and also, although it's not focused on just women, also to embrace your feminine leadership and not being afraid to do that. What is one myth about entrepreneurship or starting your own business that you would like to debunk? That as a woman, you are at a disadvantage getting funding. Okay. Interesting. Good. Very good. What does success mean to you? Success means that at the end of the day, I say to myself, this was a really good day. I added value to my clients. I added value through speaking and workshops. And you know, that's really where it's at at the end of the day for me. I like that. It's a good answer. And then most importantly, where can people connect with you? I'm assuming the book is on Amazon and a few other outlets, but socials, website, all of that. Yeah. So my website is BonnieMarcusLeadership.com. My podcast, which is weekly conversations with women, similar to yours, it's about what was your story and how did you reach where you are today? And what did you need to overcome to get there? Is bad-ass women at any age, at it airs every Tuesday on Apple or wherever you listen to podcasts? I also have a contributing writer for Forbes. My LinkedIn is BonnieMarcus, Facebook as well. Twitter handle is at self-promote and Instagram is at self-underscore-promote-underscore.