Chris Upperman, Manager of Governance & Strategic Initiatives for Facebook | From The White House Mail Room To Changing The World At Facebook

Welcome to success story, the most useful podcast in the world. I'm your host, Scott D. Clare, and today I am interviewing and sitting down with Chris Upperman. Chris had an incredible career and he still does. He walks through his entire story how he worked in the Obama administration, how he worked for the Biden Harris transition team, and also how he holds his current role, which is the manager of governance and strategic initiatives for Facebook, while also holding multiple board seats, most recently sitting on the advisory board as chairman for lawchamps, as well as sitting as a member on lawchamps board of directors. Chris is an incredible guy. He has an incredible story. He has a lot of lessons to teach over. Besides the fact that just walking through some of the stuff that he's done in his career is already mind blowing, this episode is sponsored by Gusto. So thank you, Gusto. They are your one stop shot for all payroll solutions. So if you are working in a business or on a business and you want less headache, stay tuned, stick around until halfway through the show and they have a special offer for all the success story podcast listeners. Thanks again for joining me. Today I am sitting down with a very special guest, Chris Upperman. He is currently the manager of governance and strategic initiatives for Facebook, including working with their oversight board. Previous to his role at Facebook, he has worked in the Obama administration and he also worked on the Biden Harris transition team. Chris serves on several advisory councils, including Obama foundations, my brother's keeper alliance, the National Black MBA Association, next gen chamber of commerce. He was most recently named chairman of the advisory board of lawchamps. We're going to talk about what lawchamps is, as well as the member of its board of directors and was a center for American progress, leadership institute fellow in 2012, graduated from Georgia State University, received the Bachelor of Arts in Sociology and was honored by the university receiving a 40 under 40 in 2019. Chris, incredible resume. Thank you so much for having a couple minutes to chat. This is a very exciting interview for me because the fact that you have done so much in terms of your own career, but you're also obviously very altruistic in the fact that you give back a lot and all the boards that you sit on and some I recognize, some I want you to tell me what they are, but let's like backtrack a little bit because you don't graduate and jump into all this day one. So walk me through your career. Walk me through where you started and how you got here. Wow, that's a really, really tall order here. Beno, I appreciate this opportunity. Scott, it's a pleasure to meet you. I've heard great things about the podcast and so I'm honored to be here and share a little bit about my background. This is what I'll say. I'm from Kennesaw, Georgia. That's where I grew up outside of Atlanta, where I'm at today, how I'm sitting in this seat today. There are many moments that I just honestly couldn't believe that I'd be at a place such as this. And what I'll say upfront, because I'm really big on themes, I'm really big on kind of things that kind of carry me into the moment that I'm in, and I had a father, God rest his soul, who was in the military, it was a deep man of faith, my mother's a woman of faith as well. And so I learned hard work pays. You know, it pays off, hard work pays off and staying focused in delaying gratification. It's funny that you kind of like go through the arc of my resume and accomplishments and all these kind of words and things of this nature. And really, what it doesn't show is actually a lot of the kind of like ups and downs, the challenges, the moments, those kind of like, you know, valleys that you may go through. And I think what I really want to focus on is the relates to kind of each of these things that I've done is how resilience has played a key factor in all of these things. Because let's say I went to Georgia State University, I love Georgia State, Panthers, it's situated in Atlanta, Georgia, downtown Atlanta, around the corner from the capital. And I was in, you know, university at the height of the early 2000s, the Atlanta night scene was wild. I started a company with my with my close friends to this day. We were doing marketing promotions and events. And we were just out here just trying to do our thing, you know, went through my Georgia State years. I was an individual I worked full-time while I was in college. And so, you know, I come from a very, I would say, solidly middle class. I mean, some probably would consider it maybe, you know, lower middle class, but whatever. Parents, my dad was in the Navy, my mother, and when retired, actually became a school bus driver for the local school district that I was in and my brother, my young brother. We then went into a lot of community service in the community that I grew up in. And so, all of this kind of played back when I got to Georgia State because I was already working full-time coming into Georgia State. And as I finished my undergrad studies, I was working at Bank of America at the time, and this was going right into the economic recession, the financial crisis. I was at Bank of America, I was a credit analyst, had started out in credit card sales, and it was rough at that point in time. Because I could see the writing on the wall, I could see everything that was going on. We were dealing with, you know, I was doing initially, as many people know, balance transfers, credit card sales, these types of things. And I saw it, and every day I was going to work, I was saying, look, I think there's more that I want to do. I was finishing school, and at the same time, at the time, candidate Barack Obama was running for office. He's running to be president in the United States. And it's not a secret, you know, not a lot of black people at that time so early on believed actually that a black man could actually become a president. And so, there was a lot of bewilderment initially when he was running. But I was very inspired by him. I knew that there was an opportunity, and I truly felt that this kind of like moment, there was a juxtaposition of like my faith, my perseverance, this idea of like, okay, there's this government thing. Let's think a little bit more about government. My mother had worked for the IRS, and she was currently an employee at the time, or she wasn't an employee at the time. And so I was like, okay, let's see how this thing goes. Then he gets elected, he wins, and it's like, whoa, okay, this is a real thing. I just remember very, very clearly, I just, something laid on my heart, you know, moved the DC. Pack up everything, just moved the DC, applied to the White House internship program, and you know, let's see what we can make of that, that whole situation. I remember telling my, now wife at the time, girlfriend, and she was like, go for it. I mean, go for it. She, you know, she's like, okay, let's see how this, I mean, DC and White House, all these things, we don't really have connections to, but like, go for it. Told my parents, and they were like, whoa, okay, like once again, go for it. No connections to that world. I came into the job that I had at the time, and people were like, you and like, come on, that's for other people that's watched in DC. You don't have any connections. All these types of things. And at that point, I was like, okay, like, I think I actually feel something here. I feel, I feel kind of a way about that. So what I then decided to do was just say, like, let's talk to a couple of other people who I feel are close confidants and get their take. Obviously, I'd already spoken, I can say with my white now wife, my parents, I applied, I did not get into the White House internship program immediately. I did not get in. I got in at the time, what was called an associate program, which was like a sub tier, because as you can probably remember, you know, Barack Obama presidency, you know, historic, you know, everybody wants to descend on Washington DC, you know, either work for this man or work in the cities, all this energy that's coming there. And I didn't get in initially. And I said, you know, oh, well, let's like, let's just see if we can make it work. I was very blessed and fortunate. My wife's aunt lives in Maryland, and she had a home that I could stay in. And so we worked out a situation where I could live with her for a period of time. And I just went for broke, packed up my, packed up my vehicle, and I drove up here. And kind of the rest is history. I mean, obviously, there's more to it, and I'm happy to dive in. But that's really, there, that was a pivotal moment, professionally and personally, because I basically threw caution to the wind. I trusted my gut. It's already mentioned I'm a man of faith. And so that there were some elements that I was like, I feel like there's something here. I had kind of gotten this, this, this indication that this is the kind of direction that you need to move in. And, you know, there's going to be some great things that can come from this. And I listened. And so I came here and, oh, man, I lived almost an hour in change outside of DC. And for anyone that doesn't know, DC's got, you know, not the greatest traffic, no different Atlanta, no different LA, some of these places. And so I just did that for like a full, initially a full four, four, I did four months in this associate program in the mailroom, literally, the action, this associate program, it's not promising you anything. I'm assuming it is. There's no, is there is, is there even a salary involved at this point? Oh, there is, there is no salary. This is even, even if there was a promise of a salary as an intern, which it doesn't, the White House internship program does not pay, there is even less of an opportunity of even thinking you get paid in this because you're just a sub tier. You're basically like, okay, we had, you know, 10,000 applicants who can't serve all of those individuals. And okay, your application amount of flag and it might have been something we wanted to do, but just not enough spaces, but hey, we got some mail that still have to sort over here. Are you willing to, are you willing to take that? And I said, yes, I'm willing to take that. And that was a really pivotal moment because I got my foot in the door. I got into the office of presidential correspondence, sorting mail, literally sorting mail at that point in time. President Barack Obama had more hard mail than George Bush had received in his last entire four years of his term. And so like, it was historical. You know, people were excited about this though, but you don't think about, you don't think about that side of it either. So that was your job. That was my job every day, waking up, coming in, coming in, reading mail, working with volunteers that come in and do this. And I learned a lot. I didn't know actually there were volunteers who do this across all administrations. You know, they are the tireless, fearless individuals, a lot of them retirees, people who work in government who come in and do some hours during early in the morning or late in the afternoon or lunch break and things of this nature. And they read the mail. And at the time, what was really impressive about this was not only was it a historical moment for the president, he prioritized mail. So many people kind of reflect on this like 10 letters a day. I don't know if you remember that, but he used to read 10 letters a day from our office. Like we would sort through things that kind of would percolate up to that level. And so we felt real special being there because once again, this is the mail room. But he prioritized actually seeing letters so that he could stay grounded and that he could actually respond in real time instead of just being up on the lectern saying, you know, the presidential address and things of this nature. So that was that was a very pivotal point in your career. All right. So it's getting started. You're not getting paid yet. You're just doing this. You're just doing this for the love of it. You feel a calling. It was right. That's right. No, that's not easy. But you know what? Like and I appreciate you, you're doing my job for me because you're outlining all the things like you're very self-aware of the of the different mindset state pushed you to do this. But ultimately, this is what led you down your career path and has led you to where you are today. So yes, major risk. But obviously, you know, it's it's it's worked out. So okay. So that's so that's you in the mail room. When do you start getting paid? When's your You want to know what's funny about that? Not for if I'm doing my math right now for another seven to eight and a half months. Oh boy. Because there are. You got some good family then. I told you I married my wife, right? She was a girl at the time and she was, you know, let's take care of me a bit. Parents was throwing me a little bit of money here and there. Honestly, but they believed in the dream. They believed in what I I was so inspired and enthusiastic and like, what was the dream? What was the dream? You know, the dream was actually Chris Upperman has an opportunity to give back. Be engaged in this like civic engagement ecosystem. And the dream on top of that was to then potentially then bring that back to communities that matter most to me. So once again, I'd share with you before, right? Like I don't come from a family of politics. I absolutely don't come from a family of, you know, White House and Congress, Capitol Hills, Senators, you know, you know, foreign dignitaries, you know, cabinet secretaries. I don't come from that. What's changed since I've been here in Washington, DC for the last 13, 14 years has been moments where I've actually been in front of audiences in telling them ways in which they need to get engaged via, you know, getting out the vote and voting. You know, how do you engage with your member of Congress so that they can hear your voice? You know, the district offices that most members of Congress have, that you can go in and actually, you know, get some of the, your kind of local issues addressed. Speaking, you know, being in rooms with elected officials, politicians, presidents, you know, it's probably see right behind me. To then be able to advise back from that same community, this is what matters most to us. And this is where in government, in this moment, you all should be mindful of. Because I think this is kind of the piece that, I mean, you know, and I think there are many people who kind of feel this way now on all the political spectrum is that government at times isn't as responsive. And so I felt that as it related to what my ability was in this ecosystem, I, the dream was that I had an ability to take that back to everybody. Because I've always, like I said, come from this, this, this, this background with my parents and the way that they raised me to be conscious of my community, be conscious of those who are not fortunate enough to be able to influence things that they're going to experience. And so that was what the dream was to come here to, you know, work alongside this, this historical president, this first, you know, black man president, and to be able to take that back and then say, like, look guys, looking at all this stuff that's taking place over here, I think I need you all to know because I feel like this is something known for a while, but you know, and not necessarily that this podcast is going to be focused on that, but people have to also know that government, like it, it works for you, but it works for you to the extent in which you engage it. And I think that that's the piece a lot of people are missing about it. You took it a step further. Like you, you, you engaged with it quite literally in this, in the Obama administration, but also like the work you've done later on with Biden Harris with some of the nonprofits and other memberships that you sort of, like you don't, you don't just speak about it. You seem to actually embed yourself in these organizations, institutions, and then try and actually work with them and leverage them at a much more tactical and meaningful and tangible level than most people do. So that's, that's something that already is, is quite respectful. Now you couldn't say it better, honestly, I'm just thinking about it because you keep, and like, as you know, I love doing these interviews because I love when I tee up somebody's background, like their backstory, then all their career decisions, they start to make sense, right? Like everything that they start to do, because listen, you know, all the professional milestones you've hit in your life. There's no need to have those professional milestones, but then also be on five or six other boards, like, not everybody, not everybody does that, right? That's something that's, that's unique to you, and it's a good, it's a very, very good thing. So I just like to see how, you know, this mindset that drove you to work for seven, eight months without paying, just see, total, it was 11 and a half months in total before I got my first pay job in Washington, DC, and God bless her. She's still on Capitol Hill. I work for Congresswoman, or DC delegate to Congress, Eleanor Holmes-Norton, as we call her Congresswoman, Eleanor Holmes-Norton here in the District of Columbia. I worked initially in her district office before getting to her legislative office and being an aide to her and traveling around DC and going to speaking events and meetings and things of that nature. It's my first, my first paid job. Shout out to a couple of my good friends who there was, it's funny how it works, how I got that job. And I feel like this would be a good, good, like, anecdote for this conversation. So I had been for many, many, many months, as I told you around 11 and a half months, and it got to a place of like, all right, so you're kind of living with, you know, my girlfriends aren't here, you know, you know, her husband is, love him a death. He's a great, great uncle, but at the time, you know, like he had just moved in with her not too long before that point in time, and it was kind of like, they were being very patient with me. And so, you know, I kind of get these signals. I pick up one, and I'm like, yeah, I think I need to do a little little more to kind of get some income here because, you know, I've got to stay in this house, you know, not really being able to kind of cover what I'm using. But all jokes aside, there was like a day that I actually, because I came to DC and I full on mentality to want to learn new things, experience new things, go new places, engage with new people, all of these types of things. I grew up playing basketball and I grew up running track and had never honestly played any other sport other than those. But enough, I moved to DC. I went to Joseph A. Banks. At the time, they were doing those like buy one suit, get like six free. So I got all these like boxy suits, like, you know, like it's super funny what I think about it now. I went to Dick Sporting Good. I got once again, I love my wife. You'll hear me refer to her quite a bit. She helped me purchase a set of golf clubs, a preset of golf clubs from Dick Sporting Good. And I was like, I'm moving to DC. I got my navy blazer with the gold buttons, super cringed and stereotypical and cheesy. And I was like, I'm gonna do all these things. I'm gonna go these places and meet these people on the start playing golf. Sure enough, I'm moving to a household where my uncle, he golfs. He golfs like almost every day. And so I was actually golfing. He was teaching me and never done it before. And I get calls on my cell phone. I was ignoring it at first because we were actually on a driving range. And my phone just kept ringing. I was like, okay, I got to pick this up. And I picked it up. And my good buddy, who to this day, God bless some toning, who actually I worked with at Facebook now. He hit me up as a guy who was working at the White House at the time, who I got into know very well, who had kind of become kind of a brother slash mentor. He was like, Chris, I think I got an opportunity for you. At the time, there was this woman who was on Capitol Hill, who worked for a former senator and a lot of young black professionals that come through Washington, DC eventually meet this woman. She was almost like kind of like the Godmother. And you kind of got to go through this woman to so that she can size you up and then like figure out, okay, I think this is a good place for you to go. I've seen it all done. She had been in the hill for a good 30, almost 40 years at that point in time. Had seen it all. Picked up their phone, who's like, she wants to meet with you in the next hour. I am 20 minutes away from where I'm staying. I'm not showered. I don't have no, you know, those clothes. And then on top of that, I'm 45 minutes away from where I need to be in terms of where I was staying in Maryland versus Washington, DC. I dart home, throw on a suit and like literally get him to drive me down there. And she sat with me. We talked for a moment and it was like all of maybe 10 minutes, 10, 15 minutes. All right. Now, thank you. Like, I got to understand it. Like, now you can leave. Next day, I got a call interview in several members of Congress office. It worked just like that. It really worked just like that. And I'm not saying that to say, you know, weird way. But I guess the reason why I want to draw on that is because of two things. Be ready. Just very much be ready. Right. So when you get that call, be ready to act. And then too, be in these ecosystems because the opportunities are often within. They're like, you know, if I'm in Atlanta at this point in time and I'm getting this call and it's like, hey, oh, this one really wants to meet with you in person. Oh, man, I'm actually out of time right now. Okay. Well, maybe next time. So it's kind of like, particularly as I mentor a lot of younger professionals and young people, I tell them like, it may be ugly a little bit, right? Like, if you want to get into Wall Street and you want to get into our bank and you want to get any stage, you got to move to New York. You just got to do it. If you want to get into, you know, like, you know, I mean, you know, what I'm trying to say, right? Like, you gotta like put yourself in it. So that's, that's kind of a, it's a funny story when I reflect on that. You know, it's a good anecdote, for sure. I like that a lot. It's smart. So after, after this, you had this opportunity. So where does your career go from here? Is it, because you did a lot. You were running your own, I guess you had your own business for a while, pre-facebook. I don't know if there's other other things in between if you want to go through some of those things. Yeah, I'll just do like a super quick on that. So anything that in particular that I feel like could be, um, germane to this conversation. Um, so I'm working on the hill for Eleanor Holmes and Orton. Um, yeah. And then I'm there for a year and some change in several months. And did I get a call to the back to the White House? Um, I get an opportunity to work in the office of presidential correspondence, um, and to come in and to lead an office that centers around, uh, the students, um, basically 18 and below, uh, citizens who write to the president. Uh, and I just couldn't pass it up. I mean, oh, wow, a job at the White House and, um, but back at the mailroom, but it was all good. I was like, I, in my wildest dreams, I couldn't have come up with something like that. So then I went back there. I cut my teeth, did that, ran a department, had a little small, small, small small team that had a cadre of volunteers that were very committed to the students of America and reading those letters. Um, some of those letters got up to President Obama. I was able to draft letters on behalf of president to back to the students and young citizens. Then, um, I started helping out other kind of departments inside the White House, doing some like policy briefings, um, and bringing kind of outside groups in and some like engagement, um, type of things, letting them know what kind of, you know, the way the president and the his administration were kind of tackling certain issues and we bring in kind of outside groups, uh, at that point, then I had an opportunity to kind of go down that route or go to the national security route, uh, kind of on the economic side of things or go to the small business administration. Um, and for a number of reasons, uh, it aligned that I went over to the SBA, um, you know, from my backdrop, um, and background with the company that I had when I was in college, my grandmother, uh, had a salon, um, and, and, and she was always an entrepreneur. So it kind of was like, oh, it resonates. And I went there and I joined the administrators office. Um, and just got, I mean, that, that was another moment professionally where, you know, you, you go in and you start working for a, for all intensive purposes, a cabinet secretary and you see the way, um, policies made, you see the, um, way they're talking to trade groups outside, um, influencers and individuals who are advocating around certain aspects of policy, size standards, you know, the government contracting rules, um, that allocation of capital via certain programs, um, you know, the budget process for a federal agency, the hiring in the HR, the appointments of political people coming into the agency, my eyes were just wide open. I was like, wow, this is unreal. So I was there for about five and a half, um, almost six years, um, at the SBA doing numerous things before the end of the administration and going on, um, to be a CEO of a nonprofit, uh, involve entrepreneurship, which I'm still involved with to this day. Still working with businesses, still working with entrepreneurs. I see a, a, a famous forming now. So yeah. Yeah. And, uh, and, uh, and, uh, at this point in time, also then started engaged, uh, continuously with the, my brothers, keeper of alliance and serving on the advisory capacity there, helping advise, um, the, uh, the managing director or, you know, the executive director should I say, um, who's going on to do some really great stuff, uh, is recently announced, is going into the Biden administration. And, um, it was, it was like two, it was a, it was a, it was a clear path of there were some big partnerships that were on the table that were coming down the pike with involved that I was kind of working on for a while. And then Facebook reached out. I started getting recruited into Facebook to be thinking about governance and to be thinking about, um, you know, the, you know, Facebook's, uh, impact on society and society's impact on Facebook and how, mm-hmm. And for my, you know, I was going to, I had a question. I just, just the, what, what prompted you to make that, because that's also a huge career shift of working in government and moving over to private, to private tech. So why did you want to make that move? Because that's a total, you ask some good questions. It's a total shift in, in your entire, and because you've never worked in tech before. No, no, I've worked in tech. It takes startups. And, you know, I'd have, you know, numerous friends who had worked in tech up into this point, um, I'll just give you a very, very direct answer on that. Yeah. It is unquestionable and undeniable. What type of impact tech has had on our life. I would probably say, I mean, almost forever, but unquestionably since the 90s up until this point, right? The advent of, um, I mean, obviously the computers in late 70s coming up until, but like, once the internet was established up until this point. And so as someone, um, you know, that understood that and then understood, uh, you know, the, the advent of like the, the ubers and, you know, the Airbnb's and like, Googles and all these platforms. And you see the influence that they have. Um, and you see how they actually impact lives. Um, I mean, when you think about it, right? Like, we joke about, let's say, like, Uber or lift or any of these platforms, but we, we had to either have a car take public transportation or hill a taxi prior to those falling like a, I remember booking taxis ahead of time. I was about the same morning booking taxis calling ahead, getting put on a docket basically and say, like, all right, are you sure you're going to be there? And they're like, yeah, we probably should be there. Um, I mean, we'll look at it now. And so understanding that I felt like, oh, wait, there's an opportunity for me. Because once again, this is kind of a theme. There's an opportunity to kind of like string all of these experiences, these perspectives, um, that I have. And maybe I can help influence the way tech is thinking about some of these things. And furthermore, maybe I could be, um, uh, very, very integral in the way in which we think about our, uh, responsibility back to society. Um, I mean, because once again, people use these platforms, um, because they make life easy, um, or, um, yeah, exactly, right? Exactly. So I felt that there was a great opportunity for me to come in and really help, um, this company in particular think about, um, here's, here's what, you know, things are, uh, here's, here's how groups and, um, external partners and stakeholders and people on outside are thinking about certain issues. Here's, um, some of the, maybe product considerations. Here's some strategies that we should be thinking about and bringing that in because it's not really a secret, but tech is a bubble. Um, and there are a lot of people who they have been in the tech world their whole life, um, professionally speaking. Um, and it isn't so inherent. How obvious tech impacts daily lives, right? Like, you know what I mean? You think about how all these companies, companies are not old companies. They're not like, you know, the average age of, of, of individuals when it was first starting up with, you know, there wasn't anybody over 50 years old in the company, right? Like no one. These are all kids starting and now obviously it's changed a little bit, but still if that, if that's, you know, that's the entire culture of the company, there was no external influence. And when the company has influence and there's no, there's no one else saying, you know, raising a hand saying, hey, this is how this policy is going to affect, you know, millions or billions of people, that's, uh, that's an important, that's an important thing to consider. I guess that's really what, that's what the role is, right? That's what, that's what, okay. Yeah, yeah. And, and, and, and the, and the organizations I'm in is one that, really centers around thinking, um, like I said, the impact that our platforms have on society and really be thinking about, uh, the governance structures that we should consider, um, you know, to, to kind of make sure that we're thinking about the future of the right way, um, and being responsible. Um, and so, uh, I really enjoy that type of work and I enjoy bringing in that type of thinking, um, to advocate for, um, you know, community. I mean, um, our, our, our, one of our values right now, um, is, is, is community and building community. And actually I really love this about our platform and that we really do care deeply about wanting to bring people together. Um, it's not easy. I mean, obviously, and, and societies in a tricky space globally speaking, right? Um, and I won't go too far down this, this path, but, yeah. If, if society is a, in a tricky place, then wouldn't on the social media landscape, it'd be tricky also. And I think probably, it's a more so. Absolutely. Because there's anonymity or two degrees in like, uh, you know, I could be speaking with someone that's over, uh, somewhere else. And like, you know, I can say things behind, you know, as they say, like the Twitter fingers. Um, yeah, yeah. But yeah, so I, I wanted to come in and, and to, to help, uh, strategically think about these things. I'm, I'm curious. And I'm just going to, I'm going to ask this question here because there's a couple more things that you've done in your career that are very interesting. But I'm curious from your experience, did you feel like you had more of an impact on the day-to-day lives of people with the government or with Facebook? You ask the questions. Cause like, there's this, part of these questions make me actually want to sit back for a second and do this. There's no right or wrong answer to this one. It's just, I'm just, I'm so curious because I don't know how I'd answer that. I don't know how I would even think, if I, you know, I, I've worked for Facebook, you know, or the government. But if I would say who has more impact, that's a, that's a hard one. It is, it's a hard one at this point because of the size of this company. Um, yeah. You know what I'll say is this. I, I can't actually say which, and not because I can't, but what I'm saying is, is I'm a big believer in, um, government and government action and the ability for government to be accountable to us as citizens. And we take for granted how much government actually impacts our lives. Um, the very fact that, uh, that much of the industries, much of the consumer goods that we use right now, much of the technology, much of the innovation, a lot of this was spurred by government action and government intervention. Um, our relative safety in this country is because we actually have a functioning government. Um, and you know, once again, we, we can get down to like the federal, state, local level, but overall our society functions because there is a government that's in place. Um, and so I feel like as I was in the kind of the walls and halls of government and advising on policies, particularly when I was at the SBA. Um, yes, I do feel moments that I can reflect on. I'm like, yeah, I definitely impacted some businesses in some ways because of certain initiatives that we established or advocating for certain rules to be changed, certain, um, caps on kind of the capital limits to be increased. And, you know, these groups over here matter, just as much as these groups over here, we should bring people together to talk things through. So yeah, I'll say that, but I also say that it's an amazing feeling. It must be an amazing, it must be an amazing feeling. Yeah, it is, it is. You know, I don't know that I actually think about it in that way. I honestly, I just kind of feel like I think about it from a lens of like, or responsibility that I have. Um, you know, because it's something that I'm, I'm really enthusiastic about, I kind of get really energized from it. Um, and it's, it's, you know, I grew up in a household because my father was a minister and my mother is, is a minister as well. Um, we've always done community service in like volunteerism and these types of things. And so I feel like it almost like inherently came and follows that that's what I want to do now or have been doing now. So then what you are doing in various facets, that is what you're, regardless of whether or not a small businesses or its communities and community building with Facebook, that's, you, you, you fall into this category of trying to give back to some extent and make things better and, and hold major bodies that have sway and influence and power accountable in some, in some aspect. That's what I see your role being in a lot of these things that you've done over your career. That's why to pay you to big bucks to do this podcast. Yeah. You know how to synthesize it. Well, I'm like over here talking and you just, no, no, you're, you're good, man. You're good. You're good. Okay. So let's, so let's talk about, so the things that I think that are interesting that you've done, everything you've done is very interesting. But I mean, like working with small businesses, entrepreneurs, social responsibility. So just because I have, I have to ask because it's something you've done that an incredible achievement. And I do know that this is separate from your other work, but it did involve small businesses. Speak to me about what you did with Biden Harris transition. And then maybe you can speak a little bit more about some of the small business or social responsibility initiatives, you know, including law champs, because I think that's something that's very interesting. I was looking up their website. That's a concept that I don't think I've ever seen before. Yeah. So let's walk through. Let's walk into some of that. Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, once again, there's all levels of granularity that I can get into as I've kind of tried to really around some of the professional experiences that I've had, but one that I can say is that from my time working at the White House and then going to Capitol Hill back to the White House and then over to the SBA, you know, you meet people, you know, you network. If you're intentional about it, definitely you meet people. And I've always been a person that I was raised to really be conscious about what type of impression that you leave on people in a positive way. You want, you know, be someone that makes people feel good when you engage with them. Be someone that makes people feel value. Be someone that makes people feel listen to and heard and all those types of things. And I guess I'd say in some ways I did that because I'm, you know, just working at Facebook doing the other things that I'm doing with involve on the side and all, you know, in terms of my private and personal time. And I get all of these, like, almost spammy type of calls, like, you know, numbers that I don't recognize. I'm like, what's going on? You know, I'm getting, you know, I'm getting these, like, very cryptic emails, like, hey, we've been trying to get in touch with you. And, you know, obviously the society we live in now, you got to get those, you're like, you know, delete. Yeah. And like, like 20 of those a day, I'm like, all right, all right. I know I didn't win anything. I'm still working like, exactly. And by happenstance, I'm sitting on my, my patio with my wife and call comes in. And I'm like, man, these calls keep coming in. I don't, I just honestly don't know. So I just pick it up, you know, at worst it's like, oh, you, you know, spam you hang up. And it's like, hey, Chris, how are you? And I'm like, okay, that's very specific. I'm, who are you? Are you? I know that's the next question. Who are you? Hey there, Scott here. I just want to take a second and thank the sponsor of today's episode gusto. Look, 2020 has not been an easy year for anybody 2021. Almost halfway through things are just starting to look up now for small business owners. It's been very difficult. But gusto's looking to save you a little bit of headache, make things a little bit easier. gusto is an online payroll and benefit service. It is built to help businesses, but it's built with the business owner in mind. It is the one stop shop for paying and taking care of all the payroll and HR headaches for your team. And gusto does more than just taking care of payroll, which it already does incredibly well. Takes care of time tracking, health insurance, 401Ks, onboarding, commuter benefits, offer letters, live access to HR experts, you get the idea. 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So three months free payroll, admin, HR, whatever it may be completely free, go to gusto.com slash Scott and check it out. All right, let's go back to the show. You know, this previous interview you used to work for and it's like, oh, hey, what's good to hear from you. And she goes like, I'll be very blunt and very straight. I want you to come on the Biden presidential transition. And I said, wait, what? And she's like, yeah, and you know, she goes on to explain the opportunity. She goes on to say that, you know, there have been several people who had recommended you and said that, you know, from your time at SBA to the time post, you've just stood in doing a lot of things in this ecosystem. And we really could use that perspective. I mean, one thing that I definitely enjoy a lot, particularly about this president and this vice president and in Joe Biden and Kamala Harris are they really prioritize racial equity in this idea of the build back better plan and the bill back better plan. You know, to just this spell it was not a this group over here is better or bigger than other groups. But what it is, it's like, there's a reconciliation. There are some disproportionate impacts that communities of color have been experiencing. And we want to do right by that so that this cadre of American citizens can also get ahead. It's just that simple, right? It's kind of like the body, right? Like if one of our organs is not functioning properly, the whole body is not going to actually function that properly. Yeah. And so I really bought into that and they said that we would love to have a perspective like yours, join, particularly to help shape government think through how do we need to be thinking about policies for the SBA, what's the type of team that we need to build? You know, who the outside groups that we should engage early on that can help shape early policies to help marginalized entrepreneurs, small business owners. That's what that's the that's the majority of what you're focused on, right? Yeah. Yeah. A lot of that a lot of that a lot of that. I mean, that was that was that was I mean, you see it now the SBA administrator who I know very well. She's a wonderful woman administrator, Isabel Glussmann. She's a Latino woman. She's a Latino woman. She was in formerly the governor of California, Gavin Newsom's cabinet, you know, working on the state small business agency and all the kind of small business policies. And they just nominated another gentleman named Dilawar, who if I believe I and I could be incorrect on this, but I believe he's a middle middle Easterner. And so in terms of his heritage and his background. And so I guess what I'm saying is it was this idea of like one of the quotes that I love that he said is that I'm going to build a cabinet that looks like America, you know, I've heard that yeah, I mean, that's I've heard that quote before. And so that was our remit. That was what we were told to as all of us who were appointed into the presidential transition around a very diverse background to be thinking about how to engage all aspects of America, you know, whether it be rural America, whether it be, you know, black citizens, white citizens, Asian citizens, Latino citizens, how are we thinking about everything that can work in this moment, you know, and so that's what I was I was called in to do is to really think critically around, you know, technical assistance for small business owners and I had been in the entrepreneurial development office previously and had done work there on programs and policies that focused on, you know, business owners going to brick and mortar locations to get technical assistance for their business. And what do we need to be doing? Who do we need to be engaging with? Are there new models that we should be thinking about? Should we fund this over here? Should we think about it that way? So I hope I helped shape some of those things. So let's let's let's talk about some some issues that marginalized small businesses are facing. And I guess law champs, so law champs helps business owners or is it just for everybody? Is it I don't know if two separate things or if it's no, it's for everybody. It's for everybody. Yeah, no, and I appreciate this because I'm actually really excited about this. I I have been engaging with law champs in terms of kind of an advisory role for a while now and just kind of formalized my my local engagement. But first off, it is a tech platform. It is a full on tech startup platform. And we are positioning ourselves as an advocacy organization because that's what it is right now for legal access and legal representation. It is the idea of people having access to free legal services as it relates to matching right, getting to the right people first, you know, and sizing on that side of things. So yeah, so I'm just I'm on the website now I'm taking a look. So what so how does the so walk through how the platform works? Because when I first looked into it, I've never really seen anything like this before. So this is and this is for you know, out of all the accolades and the boards that you sit on. This is the most recent that obviously like top of mind for you, right? Yes, it is. Okay. Okay. It is. It is. And I'm all in. I'm actually really excited about this. You know, it is it is a platform, you know, that we promote this idea of access to justice, social and legal reform. And we connect and protect those who deserve that equitable representation. And what we do is we match individuals who come to the platform with top lawyer on an as needed basis so that they can fight for a particular legal outcomes that they're looking for. And there is no cost for those who need lawyers to use law chance legal matching service because you know, I don't presuppose that you're a lawyer. Otherwise, you may have said that, but if you are, hey, I don't know. I am not. That was the other career path that besides podcasts. I didn't want to do the other four years of school. So totally, totally, though, I've had the same boat. I've always wanted to be but decided not to, but I'm yeah. It is a an experience that if you've had to experience it, it can be a little harrowing in that if you have something that comes up and you need legal representation, it's like, where do you go? What do you do? And it's daunting. And there are some out there who understand that that's the experience that you're going to have. We wanted to cut through that noise. We wanted to provide a platform that people can go in, put in a couple of key, you know, indicators and then it matched with other lawyers that are already on the platform. Lawyers that say, look, I'm looking for kind of, you know, deal flow and opportunities, you know, solo lawyers and those who are kind of individualized in their firms or those who are kind of even still in within big shops to find those people because what happens a lot and we hear this quite a bit from lawyers is that that matching is hard, right? Like we have a close family friend who's a lawyer and you know, she does, she does a very specific type of lawyers as most lawyers do. Honestly, you know, like if you know a lawyer, they don't just do lawyer things. They like, no, they're very, they're like, they're almost pigeonholed to like, to a fault that like, that's all they do. And you know, it's funny, like I never even thought about the fact that marginalized groups or people that just may not have excess capital or they don't have the network or the connections, like forget about even paying for a lawyer. Yep. Like I can't even find one. Yeah, you know, it's, it's never crossed my mind, but that's a, that totally makes sense. Yeah, it looks to make sense. Seven and 10 modern income households experience at least one legal issue per year. And this is from peer, peer resource center, right? You know, it's kind of like it's situation where you're going to have something. Yeah. That you're going to need legal representation. And I think if we're going to be honest about it, there are a lot of moments that legal intervention will probably be a better route if you actually had access to it. If you know like there are, there are moments where it's kind of like, oh yeah, that, you know, I'm having this little like tenant issue or I'm having an issue as a runner or I'm having an issue on the job. Well, you know, one of my closest best friends, kind of like a little brother of mine, he had some challenges with his employers. And he went through this whole, I wonder what, I don't know. And I was like, hey, you should look at law champs. I did plug law champs as well before I even joined formally, but I said, look at law champs. And then I also put him in touch with some other lawyers and other people who are in the same kind of professional industry vertical that he was in, because in pharmaceuticals. And he was like, Chris, thank you. After it all. And he was like, I, there's no way I could have figured that out if I didn't have everybody. Not everybody has a, a well connected Chris around to help them out. And that's why you should go to law champs. I mean, honestly, it sounds like a shameless plug, but it's not truly, it is a platform that people can get that access. And we pride ourselves, particularly with having top quality and top national leaders who have bought into the platform, who are there. And like I said, that matching is free. You know, they can come on. I mean, you know, look, we have a number of examples. We have, you know, a gentleman named Alex Torey, who's a Brooklyn based black millennial entrepreneur, and he launched his music based platform. And any person who's a creative, I mean, this is kind of why I bring this up because you're creative in terms of this podcast. If you're going to go about this stuff, very legit way in terms of anything around the creative space. How do you register? How do you trademark? How do you kind of like incorporate? You know, what how do you protect your IP? How do you protect all these different types of things? And he was in that kind of situation. I, you know, not to say anything negative, but you can go online and type in like a do it yourself or, you know, a quick easy template. But look, that's people who I'm going to say are trying to possibly be helpful, but that can put you in a really, really rough patch if you kind of like, especially if you think you're, if you think you're covered and you think you're protected and it turns out you're not as probably going to cost you more than just figuring out the right way to do things. Absolutely. Absolutely. So we had a lawyer. We had a law chance lawyer, Ariel Gray, who came on and like worked with him and is working with him currently to got him fully, you know, incorporated and, you know, a lot of different protections around his trademark paperwork and other things of this nature because he was down at trademark wormhole. I just want to tell you how, how useful this platform could be. And again, this is, this is just me sort of uncovering it on this call. So if you are, if you're even an entrepreneur creative or the solo printer, whatever you're trying to do anything, if you Google lawyer in my city, that's going to give you somebody that's going to charge you 15,000 bucks just to talk to you. Because they're going to be the ones that are SEO optimized, right? We don't even actually have to see this is what I love that you just brought up about that because I was trying to be diplomatic about it as you probably know, just a little bit before. Fair, fair. That's actually how this ecosystem has been operating for ever known. I know, right? I've dealt with lawyers. I can't stand, I can't stand because you always get the most expensive one because that's the one that knows how to get the ranking after the first page of Google and good luck, good luck if you get somebody like that. Because no, they're not bad people, but they're not for its business. And that's the point, right? Like if we're going to really talk about, you know, once again, these themes, equity, access, opportunity, this is what we care deeply about with law champs. We care about equitable access, equitable opportunity to access this ability that, no, you should not be charged for a consultation, you know, to get matched, you know, in these types of things. Because once again, to that same point, you can Google lawyer, you can call, you know, Jane Doe, John Doe. They may for a moment drag you along to make you think that they have a type of lawyer you need, but then come and say like, I'm not, or going through a whole situation where they sub out, you know, you get what I'm saying. So like, there's a lot. There's a lot. Yeah, let's cut through that noise. Let's cut through that noise. Yeah. And that's that, you know, like if you want, if you want it, like I love it, like if you want to give people opportunity, you can't, you have a creative individual that wants to do something or wants to get help to incorporate or whatever they want to figure out. Like, you need to give them the opportunity to do that without making the bankrupt before they put out their first piece of content before they have, you know, open their first shop or whatever. Absolutely. But you want to know what's also brilliant about the law champ's platform is that we're only talking about those who need the lawyers. The brilliant thing about law champs is also that we also provide a la carte and bespoke approaches for lawyers themselves. You know, we have some very interesting data, but in particularly, there's somewhere in the range of 800,000 plus attorneys who need affordable turnkey solutions to acquire clients and compete online, particularly, right? Like it is, it is this notion of the solo and small firm attorneys that are out here that some may not be the most digitally literate, some may not have the best kind of kind of, you know, social media representation. They may not necessarily have the ability to kind of create a website and things. We provide all these services also for lawyers. And there's data that says that lawyers spend around 50% of time prospecting for new clients and administrative work. So if you kind of like start to think about some of these data points, you kind of understand, oh, maybe there's an opportunity here. Maybe we can do something and be that kind of middle platform that, you know, democratizes, makes it equitable, makes it easy for people to find the lawyers that can match up with their needs, and then also help those lawyers find the clients that they're really trying to get to and actually be able to serve those. A socially conscious business that also solves a major need. That's pretty good, man. That's not bad. Thank you. I appreciate that. I appreciate that. I'm happy to be on. Is a chairman of the advisor in the board of directors. A great team of individuals. And honestly, you check it out. And we're going to try to take this one and do big things with it. Yeah. And I think what I believe in most about the platform is it's just this idea. It's funny because this now gets back into this like the way that I think in terms of the line politically. I feel like this is kind of like the Obama University that was a part of in terms of the way I think. But it's turned out okay. So it's not bad. You know, it's just this idea of how many people can take advantage of this platform in this moment that we're in. And just the idea of people across all of America at this point in time. There are the markets that we're thinking about moving into soon and things of this nature. I'm just really enthusiastic about the possibilities of this platform. Because once again, we're post some of the biggest platforms that have democratized some of the oldest clunky industries and ecosystems. So I just feel really good about it. Yeah, that's very good. Very, very good. Very interesting. I'm glad you gave me the rundown because I had no idea. I really didn't know what it was going into it. Now I have a much better understanding. For, you know, for the, so I guess the only thing that I wanted to sort of finish up with you and just sort of get your opinion on is some thoughts on corporate social responsibility because that's been a tenant of, of course, the platform that you're building, but also something that you probably had to figure out with Facebook, figure out while working in the White House in DC. So where do you think, where do you think, or what corporations are focusing on social responsibility and making impactful change? Who's doing, who is doing social responsibility right that you've seen? You ask really, I think you have a way back. I know that you have answers for this stuff and I know that I know that this is in your ecosystem and it's just very interesting because I think that, you know, we can go down the small business route, but the social responsibility route is something that you've lived, you've breathed, you're breathing right now and living right now and it's something that's very important and it's something that's come to light more over the past year. Look, I'm going to do a shameless plug and I'm going to say, you know, because I do it. I believe it and I true it. I'm in it, right? Because I see what's going on. I mean, I truly believe and know that at Facebook and I'm not even, I'm not the person speaking on this so that, you know, in that way, but we do things well in this way and we're trying to find more ways to do it even better. So I will say, as it relates to kind of a corporation, large corporation, I think we do some really great things and a lot of things that people don't know and I think that's also at least for me. So like you've made the comment of like someone like me, I would know. Yeah. There are many organizations that are doing amazing work that we just don't know and it's unfortunate at times that people don't get that kind of credit. So I will be remiss to say that about my company Facebook. I will say I care very deeply about this is another private company who I respect deeply. It's called the Libra Group. Libra Group is actually who founded and were founding sponsors of Involve Entrepreneurship that I still am part of and involved started in their corporate social responsibility division. And this is a private family company CEO and chairman George Logothetus and his brothers decided that a part of their business and the subsidiaries that a core element would also be CSR. So they were going to think the same bullish business tactics and principles. They were going to apply that in their corporate social responsibility and in verticalize that as well and do some really amazing things. And it sounds like it would be a shameless plug but it's not. I'm a big believer and you got to give credit what credits do and they've done some tremendous things with their corporate social responsibility. There's an organization that started out of that called the Concordia and the Concordia Summit and so it is like one of the foremost summits right now that takes place in New York City. Once again I said Involve Entrepreneurship, you know there is the Selenie Institute that focuses on maternal mental health that's one. And then another that I actually want to call upon because they're very great individuals and like I said when you know credits do it's do. But Mitch and Frida K. Pore with the K. Pore Entrepreneurship Center, you know Mitch you should look him up. Mitch is a phenomenal man and a fascinating individual. Once again one of these like internet forefathers it's kind of the way that I'll put it. He built Mozilla Firefox and Linux and he and his wife Frida K. Pore Klein have done some amazing things. They are doing it right. They're doing it right and they should I am a big believer of you know there's some of the biggest ones that you can call out and you know I think that's kind of standard but we should definitely be giving credit what credits do these organizations that are doing good work when they're doing good work. So I'd like to call them out. Yeah I appreciate that and I think that what I just wanted to I wanted to highlight obviously a platform like Law Champs it's easy to show how they're benefiting marginalized groups but not everybody has a product that directly benefits through the application of the product and marginalized groups so it's nice to just hear names and understand other organizations that are doing it and going out of their way to do things that are outside of they're just delivering their product and in a way that that you know works with CSR so that's very interesting and I know that Facebook does a lot and I don't think it's a bad thing to plug Facebook for their CSR activities. I really do believe they do try to do their best by God it's a difficult place to be. Yeah that conversation is much different because it's a difficult place it's not easy honestly and you know as they say no good deed goes unpunished. 100% 100% all right we've we've covered a lot of stuff I really appreciate all the stuff we went into I always do like rapid fire just to bring out some like life lessons from you is there anything that we didn't go into that I should have asked you about. Not that you should have asked me about I think you you did a phenomenal job this has been great and thank you again Scott for having me and thank you and and I wish you continued success with this I really do appreciate and enjoy this format. I do want to call out as I've said before this idea of resilience and being focused particularly is a lot of young professionals this is what I tell them that I mean you know we're in a fascinating moment in time right like social media this is probably I probably don't want to go too deep like there's a lot of things that we think are true based off of certain ways that social media might make make it seem and that idea of the grit and grind I'm big on the grit and the grind I'm big on that right like you got you got to grind this thing out because you're gonna appreciate it and you're gonna know it when you know it once you've experienced it and you kind of succeed at it and so I'll say that and then lastly be anchored in a biovalue be anchored by a value like what what carries you to do the work that you do every day what drives you every day when you wake up to like you know what motivates you and and have have have a value have a value that you're driving that and for me I value humans I value people I value the idea that we are all on this this rock you know this is this rock and we we have a finite amount of time here and I'm someone that really believes I want to do what I can do to make it better for other people while we're here on this rock and so that's I would say probably the kind of thing that I'd like to leave on that on that end very good very good and good and beautiful sentiment too that's a nice way of putting it yeah okay let's do a couple rapid fires great uh the biggest challenge in your career and how did you overcome and some of this may be you know you may have already touched on some of this stuff but just to bring it out at the end whoo biggest challenge in my career um yeah whoo this is yeah because this one goes into a lot of it this definitely dovetails in even a personal moment um the day that I'm walking out the door to go to work at the White House and I get a call literally ignoring it first you see this theme actually yeah and my mother calls me that my father has had a stroke um and then subsequently then ends up passing um sorry yeah thank you um the challenge of that was a number of things because in that same moment and I didn't even get into this because it gets super interesting but in that moment I had been already interviewing in several other places in the White House or or at the SBA um and I just like hop on a flight that same like within the next couple of hours go down uh you know we're at the hospital of my father's there it's like five days and he doesn't make it um I had two offers on the table I won't put about I won't put it out there exactly what the two offers were one I had already tentatively kind of accepted because I just was like oh yeah that's amazing and like you know once again another one of those I can make this up and get into this kind of ecosystem if I tried and I was offered a role and the other one it felt like it was gonna come but it hadn't come yet a week and a half from the time that I'm planning my father's funeral I get an email when are you coming back because basically we need you back in the office for work purposes and I'll give credit what credit is do SBA at the time the deputy administrator sent me a note because I had already interviewed with all these people and they sent me condolences from all of those people that I interviewed with and then also the administrator and I was like yep SBA no question about it I mean because it spoke something a little more about the humanity and it spoke something a little more about like okay you know we're we're in this together right is a family kind of thing and so that was a challenging moment for me not because of as I kind of I guess centered quite a bit around the professional side of that thing but the idea that when you have those types of life moments you know that someone that passes particularly like a parent it doesn't happen on like a Friday night going into a weekend like it doesn't happen I mean you give it up saying and so yeah yeah that was a very interesting time because I ended up taking off a month and some change because you know I'm the eldest of my family I have a younger brother God bless him and you know mother and now obviously I have a wife but you know you that then notion of like okay now I have to step up in a way right I have to be there for my mother I have to be there for my brother and so I was away for a long period of time and so I will say that it was a challenge because I didn't expect it my father and I had a very interesting upbringing because my father was a military man and he was very tough on me growing up very stern and they were just moments just like oh man this guy's always riding me and like I don't know you know like moments that we kind of act like we didn't like each other but that's just kind of how it goes but I know he loved me I know he cared deeply for me and I cared some of that when I became a young adult and some of it at a point in time wasn't actually addressed like I kind of was sitting these things heavy on me for sort of many many years and I started to like unpack that and started to have some conversation and I felt like we were getting there and as we are when we're young professionals we might get calls from like your parents or like your aunts or uncles grandmother you know we're out here like there's a happy hours and all the friends and networking all this stuff and sometimes they wouldn't prioritize picking up phone calls just because of just working all these things I specifically got a call from my father just a few days honestly three days issue before that point in time and he picks up the phone I never get this and says hey how you doing son and he was like I just want to say I love you and I was like oh okay like you know and I'm having a little emotional now but like you said that and three days later so it's like one of those moments where I guess perspective it does it does like cherish those moments that you have with people that you love and that you care deeply about yeah that's what I'll say yeah now it's a beautiful it's a sad story but it's a good it's a good lesson and and you know what at the end at the at the end of the day you know you know that where his head was at you know and that was in a good spot in a very good spot yeah and totally yeah totally no so yeah I mean that was a challenge for me yeah that was yeah that's a that's a that's a that's tough and that's something you know what that's a good it's a good thing to bring up because uh what that that situation you just described you gave me goosebumps when you when you told me that story because that situation is something that I deal with every day you know like you just you just don't answer the phone or you don't text back or you whatever yeah yeah I mean it's it's a function of what we do sometimes and I I that that that one I think about often that what if it was that moment that I would have done that you know what I mean yeah so um I'm so thankful I did yeah yeah yeah yeah that's a good story it's a good story it's also an important mine it's two two incredible reminders out of this number one um where you work if if you don't have that type of team that supports you the way that SBA did and find another job because that's incredible and it's very rare so it's very rare it is I can't find that yeah try to find it try to find it but also at the end of the day it's just it's just a job yeah it's just a job woo and that that's a whole other podcast episode yeah yeah yeah that is a podcast it is it's just a job I mean the things that I experienced in that moment um that put all of that into perspective and I think this is something I still way often of just like this idea like it could all be in a moment's notice you know so yeah live love hard yeah agreed agreed okay all right um let's see another good question now and deep okay yeah what's what's the reason what's the reason why people usually fail or give up and how would you suggest they overcome that oh I love this I love this because I actually have a good response for this because I thought about a lot of good response for everything you know but this one specifically I will say that I think a lot the the reason why a lot of people fail is because people try to overindex towards succeeding so what I mean by that is actually is like you know that you know the idea of like issues like issue spotting or like the idea of like oh I see that over there like that or I'm trying to ride that wave over here that's always where I worked in a mail room really like for a president right um it's a mail room like you can't even think like there's no way to dress that up sure for president right like sure like I mean okay but at the same time it's a mail room it's one of those things where I know for a fact because I've had conversation with people who were like you worked at a mail room or like no I probably would have sat that one out and actually kind of applied to some other places the goddess of other places but there's a very direct relationship between me taking that opportunity literally that is a direct line to where I'm at right now literally I mean I like you know what's again getting deeper I could go in and draw all of the parallels and the dimensions from that literal decision where a lot of people were like you know turn your nose to it or roll in your eyes I mail room to this moment now so I think very um directly people fail because they're also not trying to put themselves in positions to experience the journey and the process of it all right like the idea of what is this you know what is this thing in this moment gonna help me learn and understand and where what will that do across that spectrum to get me to where I need to go and so I think a lot of people are looking for the home run every time that they're doing the thing do you know what I mean by that so like in gratification that instant gratification that like 100 oh I just started I just started at this job and like I already want to be a director I want to be a bp I don't know if that's see I'm young you're young I don't know if that was a thing with our parents and I grant I don't think it was I don't think it was to the same extent I think that I think that technology has made the world seem well it is closer but seem like everything is accessible all the time everything should be something that we should be entitled to have if that person can have it why can't I have it and it's just made people's like you said over index on success that that the expectations are completely off base yeah and then the last key piece to that as I said it earlier in this conversation is resilience I think there are a lot of people who the first hint of a little bit of opposition a little bit of what seems to look like it would be failure or it doesn't you know the outcome doesn't look like what they expected it to be that they're ready to hit head for the hills you know and I'm also kind of like that's maybe times a chip that's on my shoulder did I'm actually like oh I see that opposition or that that that I see it coming when people told you that you can't go to that a little bit let's see you like you know yeah yeah you know let's step up I'm telling you the people that are chips on their shoulder that's I've always said that's who you want to hire that's who you want to work with like the people that want to prove something like they're good they're good people they are the good people we got some I mean you know at any day it's like it's like gas yeah when again my good buddy I already had mentioned him earlier like he jokes all the time he's like Chris you know what I love about you he's like you're just like Kobe Bryant who the love Kobe Bryant is a basketball player God rest his soul and his daughter and the others who parachute that helicopter crash but like you know this joke of you know I react or like I read what did I react to all slides perceived whether I react to all slides whether real or perceived which is this idea that like this chip on my shoulder that like did you just say something to me yeah and it's like no I didn't but it's like I'm always oriented on this idea of like yeah I think they I think they are trying to say something to me and I think there's a problem there so it's all jokes but um the chips that's why that's why you that's why you took that that 11 months unpaid worked in the mail like that's why I'm telling you that's why you did it it wasn't it wasn't because you it's because you had to prove you had to prove something and you know it worked it worked it worked out it's a big name and yeah and then I will say that this is this is so fascinating in this point and um so it's old book at this point from early 90s but the millionaire next door I don't know if you've ever read it I haven't actually that's the one for me you should you should you should read it uh I think I have it yeah it's definitely up here um boy that book is you know you kind of read it and you initially dive in you feel like it's another one of those like I don't want to say like self-help but it's definitely like initially it comes off like that but it is precise as it relates to the behaviors of those who are actual millionaires and there's real data like there's all book is full of data and the book talks about how systematically um what ends up happening is those who become millionaires are often those who have that grit that termination who don't come from certain types of backgrounds and then they have something to prove yeah then there's real specific data that actually talks about how the children the progeny of these individuals lose all of this because now they're in the situation where they actually have everything they've you know and they and they kind of grind and hustle is there and they actually talk about some of the things certain people have done to kind of like act as if you know my wife says it all the time she's like whenever we have children she's like I'm just going to act as if our circumstances aren't whatever they will be at that point in time because I want them to know you know my wife it's got a unique background as well she comes from very humble beginnings um she's she's she's a legit bad she's a badass I'm sorry I just got to say that my wife out of the half the time what we experience is the fact that we're actually two of the same people that are like driven purpose purposeful and we have chips on our shoulders and so that also keeps me in line because I'm like I gotta always show up I gotta show up and I gotta be the biggest and best I can so yeah awesome that's a good answer I like that a lot that's a very very good answer all right um you could tell your younger self one thing what would it be man I love these questions I love these questions um don't internalize so much like I went through and this is fascinating because I love that you even bring this out we were talking about this before we even started recording this idea almost like therapy um yeah yeah something that a lot of people don't know about me and I'm I'm a very transparent communicator and I'm open when I feel the rapport is there but um yeah I dealt a lot with I don't want to necessarily say identity issues but I dealt with a lot with my parents were the the my whole family is from North Carolina uh Raleigh Durham area to be exact and uh I come from a family historically speaking from sharecroppers and slaves I know this and the experiences that many black individuals who have these kind of lineage and understanding there is this notion of like what you know we want to be very intentional if if by all means to make sure that our children don't have to experience certain things that we have to experience um and so my parents were very intentional as they're related to like the place where they ended up buying a home and they were like oh there's good schools there and there's this that a third it's a good wholesome community in these types of things um and at the time when I moved I it's not a see canisaw Georgia is a civil war town um they they just last year during the Black Lives Matter George Floyd moment uh lowered the Confederate flag from the city hall this is 2020 that this happened this made news in the whole southeastern regional and it was an agent and a manager I didn't realize there was still I didn't realize there was still a public uh Confederate flags oh yeah oh yeah I mean on the books and once again civil war town on the books yeah it is law to have a firearm in your home you must have a firearm in your home right like obviously no one's coming yeah going and enforcing no no but still it's like it to paint the picture yeah yeah so this is where I grew sorry so I think you now kind of understand where I'm maybe going with this I grew up in this young black man in my you know early formative years mostly around white peers um not many people that look like me not many people that come from my background and this idea of just the things you experience right like the you dress different you talk different you brush your hair this way my wife jokes about that because I've written up a lot um I dealt with a lot on that spectrum and then but but at the same time I go to I went to a black church um I had you know black family members I you know my parents uh could um convene and engage and had community with other people who look like myself and others because my parents were in ministry and community faith like but every day I'm going to school with people who don't look like me and so I had these these ideas of like the things I need to do to like make myself almost like these survival tactics and these like defense mechanisms to like experience it and to fit in to to be accepted I guess right is what you're getting that yeah and the whole point that I say now to myself at that point in time is like be exactly who you are and be proud to be exactly who you are from from the jump both sides of that to the white community answer back to the black community because like the other element of that in is like when I would go into the black community in my church and things of this nature I'd get the idea of like oh you talk properly you know what I mean or like you dress a particular type of way you know and in all of these types of things so then you find this like you know where do you fit in and you find some of these identity issues and so my parents uh god bless them were very keen on and stealing inside of me you know you're a young black man you're strong you know love yourself and these types of things are very thankful for that in my instilling history you know this notion of ironic this notion of like Juneteenth actually now being more of a phenomenon in the thing literally past legislation as an actual federal holiday recognized my father taught me about Juneteenth as my brother and I when we were young and so but then you kind of go back into the ecosystem of a civil war town you'd be in talk about Juneteenth in your household and maybe at the black church that you're going to but then when you're getting into the school and friends and teachers and all these other things it's much different so I was competing in battling on that how did you how did you how did you get how did you get over that how did you get through that how did you how did you rectify your identity because obviously your situation is much more difficult than I would assume many people do go through growing up but still everybody has varying degrees of identity issues so what's the what's the strategy that you have to get through probably the one of the hardest identity issues that anybody could really totally deal with in North America yeah um several things extracurricular activities I started playing sports very heavily um so that was one thing and so like you know obviously the camaraderie and the kind of different things that you that you experienced with you know friendships that you build um and then I got I would say this is probably around maybe sixth seventh grade I just it almost literally clicked where I went away for a point in time in North Carolina because we just spent all my uh summers there I came back and I think it always happens right it's whether it's puberty or whether whatever it is you come back and people like you look different you talk different you live a little taller you got a little bit of glow by you so there was that piece but then this idea that I started to understand um because it's like scholastically and things that I was doing an academic spectrum I was always an honor student at AP student that I was like oh people people respect whether it be like you know the teachers whether be like you know authoritative figures whether it be like even peers in the classroom you know like sure you may have the bullies and like oh the nerd the nerd but like wait you can actually command attention yeah when you actually are knowledgeable or when you kind of articulate yourself a particular way and when you know this and that there and I've always been an avid reader I love reading and so I just embraced it around the middle school time frame I just embraced it as it like this is just who I am it's just it's just who I am and as the reason why I brought in extracurricular is because there were clubs that I was able to join that reinforced that identity that like you are still who you are but you also are a smart person you actually read books you actually do these things and all this stuff so that's what I'll say I love that you doubled down you doubled down on what you knew what you're good at and then everything fell out everything else fell into it's funny how that works even and even in such a even in such a difficult environment because you know even even as a kid in like a in a high school that doesn't have to deal with the things that you dealt with just doubling down on what what you know what you're good at always seems to manifest a positive result and always seems to find your tribe always and that sort of solves that I like that you just said that like defining your tribe is is critical actually yeah but you can't do that unless you know what your tribe you can't do that you can't be you can't be changing your persona your personality changing your beliefs will not change you're really changing what you think you should you know put out an imprint onto the world all the time and expect to find people that vibe with you and resonate with you absolutely absolutely absolutely you know and I'll say to that one point though I think it's a it's an interesting point that you raise because for me I feel like that is actually a part of what my superpower is now though that I have been this individual that has had to so like look at all jokes aside like I was I was also that young man that was in church five six days of the week literally right like my parents were in the ministry so I'm like I'm doing you know I'm usher I was in a choir I was at vacation Bible school I was doing all of these things you're you're you were in it you were in it I was in it I was in it right you know this is hilarious things um okay so then there's that but then there's like I'm you know a black young black man in my black in my black family in the black community on the side in terms of the recreational sports that I'm playing in the church but then I'm also young black man and it's like predominantly white ecosystem and so culturally speaking growing up with a southern you know like you just picked up on sensibilities and all of these places and I think what I would really say be be someone that can pick up on signals from all of these environments because when you can weave that together it can really be used tactically because at the end of the day it's about competency and in the idea that in the idea of being able to connect with each other right like I do believe clearly with you being a podcaster in the way that you're facilitating this conversation you enjoy people and you obviously come from yeah I believe I suspect you have a pretty unique background because there's a certain level of empathy and there's a certain level of like there's there's something about you that I'm feeling that's like oh yeah there's something there like you know I mean there's something there it's like you're not trying to get your point yeah I'm I'm I'm empathetic and and I do I do love people but I'm also just very curious I like I like understanding people but I like to understand them and I always want like it sounds like so airy fairy but like I love hearing people stories and it always like comes from a place of like like love and like and trying to pull out people's stories and and figuring out their lens like there's a word for it like when you can look at the world through another person's eyes walk you know walk in their like I walk in their shoes is like the actual but there's an actual word for it and I can't place it right now but that's what I like to do I just I just enjoy doing it and I find that it makes me a better person too it makes me a more holistic person that understand better human or people better you know yeah that's that's really that the end of the day that's what you got to do like whether or not from a conversation like this I can learn something to do with any of your actual professional accolades your work use you know social social what was the social responsibility that you know companies should undertake some of the things you you figured out over your career in terms of grit in terms of you know just tenacity all these things like these are all things that yeah I'm technically teaching through you to the audience that listens but if you don't think I listen to these things and I try and understand what makes me the best version of myself as well in terms of my career and my and my personal life my professional life that's what I like to get out of it that's what I try and I try and pick up on little things from everybody and just try and make myself a better person and that's why you know some of these questions like yeah they're they're good questions but they're just questions that I want to know the answer to I'm just a that's one to figure I just want to figure stuff out because everybody has an incredible story it's really it and and I love what you said because I feel like this is the major key feel like DJ Cali there's like the major key major key yeah to honestly like the commonality we experience each other better as humans when we understand each other and we can see the lens like you said see through their lens and understand their perspective I think we just are at our best when that's what we can do and when we can put all that other stuff aside great yeah and it's been I think it's even more important than ever like listen like there's nothing so contentious about you that I have to you know stretch to like see the world through through the way your eyes but like still like over the past two years like people have become more isolated more distant than ever quite literally and I think that I think that one thing that as as humans we have to do more is is to try and get back to the point where we were two three years ago where we were connected we weren't isolated we weren't on us versus them dichotomy the one thing I always notice coming from Canada is that and I say this all the time the the politics in the US and and the the separation between left devices oh my god it's insane it blows my because in Canada yeah you have you have right wing left wing but you have like center right center left and that's it and everything outside of that people look at you like you have three heads but there is like there is a huge division and I think it's gotten I think and I think that's probably the worst thing about you know previous administration has been the fact that it has increased this division and I think that that increase in the division between people that family members friends peers co-workers whatever it may be it's been further emphasized by the factors of pandemic and you can't shake hands grab a coffee you know go to lunch with people and everything's just and and everybody's stuck on their phones and everybody's stuck on social media and they're in this like echo chamber of similar like-minded thoughts and it's just it's just bad this is like a tangent that I speak about quite often no anything that I can do to have great conversations with great people you know what I can't save the world but at least it keeps me sane and it keeps me you know what you're doing your part though see this is the thing yeah I mean it almost kind of like I extract a little nugget from what you just said because it's nothing too small to be someone that that's what you want to do and what you want to give back and contribute to this society this world because to the point you just made that's not where we're at right now is the site 100% we're in a whole devices moment of our of our of our existence where it's like what's the thing I don't like about you and then like we kind of center on that and for whatever reason that's how we don't and it's it's it's fascinating to to get to this place and see how that politics in here in the United States has actually drawn those chasms like there there's just real division right now it's really really unfortunate I do agree with what you said um with where our politics are and where I think now I mean this is what I once again I join the Biden presidential transition to serve and support this idea that um you know look once again you know it was a Barack Obama is a Joe Biden is a Kamala these people you know are these perfect individuals no I want to join teams that are trying to figure this out trying to bring out the best of us trying to bring us together and trying to do the things that we were here to do which is create access and opportunity and like let's all let's all let's all enjoy the ride and so for me once again I spoke to it earlier but when you're talking about like his cabinet right now you have the first native indigenous cabinet secretary over the agency that actually historically has broken the treaties the Department of Interior right you know you have the first openly gay secretary in Pete Buttigieg's right a Department of Transportation you have the first plan I didn't realize there was all these first because I'm a little bit I have the whole cabinet I need to a lot of it yeah the whole cabinet um Scott is is almost all first um you have the first black man uh EPA administrator um you that I mean it's it's you can go on down the line of yeah it's too bad that it's the first start happening in 2021 for a lot of these things totally totally that is a shame you know but glass F-full it's yeah it's my my my father used to say it's like such a time as this you know let's take we'll take advantage of it while we can you know yeah yeah okay I a few well I think I got like two more I hope they're these are these are amazing you know some of these questions like people people give like one line answers but be the stuff that you're sorry I'm a little I'm a little I've been told I'm a little verb for both so no no no I would I would I would tell you if you were going on and this wasn't amazing amazing life lesson stuff and I really hope people get some value out of this and I do hope so too um okay so one person that had a major impact on your life what lesson did they teach you oh I got to just come out of gate in like yeah I'm probably gonna get the I don't know who your demo is for your viewership but like this is super hilarious right now but if you're already I might just give the simp simple label but look I'm a married man I've been with my wife now for oh coming on well 15 years now if I didn't answer if I didn't answer the question the same way and also I also been trouble so you know like I said a whole other podcast episode but my wife is near and dear to me at the highest level because she we actually met at a very kind of low point in my life back in college a very very low point where I kind of just kind of gotten a little beside myself um and less than focus let's just say that and um for her to see see that diamond in the rough understand that like I'll just use myself as an example of what I know that this man is and can be and then like support him through these this this moment um she she yeah she whipped me back in the shape and so honestly this is a very you know whether she's in the house somewhere and if she's over here and she's probably I rolled in me right now but she knows I mean it um she knows that that that she's she's got a dear place in my heart because um she invested in me in a way in which even at the time I wasn't investing in my own cell and so that's why I want to honor her by saying you know thank you for that and she's someone that I care very deeply um about and for that for that for that for that reason so yeah you gotta and as I said I moved to DC for 11 most this was a pivotal point of my life you know she was sending me $250 a month and that's tough that's not a lot of money it's not a lot of money I'll tell you a lot of a lot of people attend you zero so that's what I'm saying like it wasn't a lot of money but it was also like it was like it was like whoa it's so uh yeah okay I moved to DC a whole whole year and a half and before she even came up here um but yeah she she's someone um that I that I very very deeply uh admire and appreciate good good um what's one resource that you'd recommend people go check out could be a book podcast audible whatever man I love yeah once again you dropped one before but if there's other ones oh yeah definitely definitely books yeah so they books I love books so like I could since you said this is recorded I got a whole bookshelf of books here like tremendous amount of books some very very interesting books too um that that I that I actually have up there um I will say that this is one that I recommend every one by their stories this book right here will illuminate things for everybody uh around black people's experience in this country as it relates to migration and how we've ended up in the places that we have in the country and experiences of that and Isabel Wilkerson is a winner of a Pulitzer Prize brilliant uh brilliant author journalist the whole nine um and it is a very much an anthropological read but is fascinating um that's one and then I'll also say um I'm a big believer of getting what you need so uh find your why um you know by Simon Sinek is another good one and you know it's it's a tremendous amount of books but I actually said that those are two good recommendations but two completely completely totally separate topics I love that yeah I love that yeah yeah I like I like them people bring in stuff that because you know whenever because of the nature of the podcast it's like there's a whole bunch I could list like probably like 20 business books that are just like on repeat with with guests mentioning so thank you for seriously thank you for bringing in some other some other ideas um yeah so that's I'll drop I'll drop links to these in the show notes as well if you want to check them out those I've never I've never read the first one before yeah I've read I've read I've read Simon Sinek a lot but I've never read the first so that that would be a good read too yeah um okay and then uh last last question before I get some uh some ways for people to reach you because I want to you know give you some exposure as well um but what does what does success mean for you success to me success yeah looks success success to me is when someone asks about me stranger family member friend and they say that Chris Upperman and then a smile I like that all I love what success looks like for me you can put a smile on people's face and they can think positively about you that's what success looks like for me amazing okay and then where do people go to connect with you social websites yeah whatever yeah yeah I'm across social media um so you know cross facebook a whole nine um Instagram Christopher dot upperman um linked in I'm on uh there once again Christopher Robert Upperman and Twitter uh see Upperman so C U P P R M N um shortened so see Upperman so you can find me across all of those platforms and I do want to do a plug for law chance check us out law champs um it you know amazing platform um and involve entrepreneurship as well uh involve is uh uh involve global dot org um you know these are these are the organizations that I feel very very deeply about um and love and we talked about law champs today but honestly I want to play it again it's a great platform and we want to we want to we want to serve you if you have some legal needs you know check us out amazing amazing okay that's that's it man that's that's all I got that was awesome that was great Scott now thank you that was really really good