Liquidity & Liquor - Brad Tuckman | Building a $100m Creative Business

Welcome to success story. I'm your host Scott D. Cleary. The success story podcast is part of the HubSpot podcast network The HubSpot podcast network has incredible podcasts like entrepreneurs on fire hosted by John Lee Dumas Entrepreneurs on fire stokes inspiration and share strategies to fire up your entrepreneurial journey and create the life You've always dreamed of listen to entrepreneurs on fire or success story wherever you listen to your podcasts today You're going to hear an episode of my new podcast liquidity and liquor. I co-host liquidity and liquor with Joseph Martin a serial entrepreneur who sold his last company Boxy charm for over five hundred million dollars on liquidity and liquor we have conversations about business Money and life with some of the most interesting people in the world you can download and subscribe to liquidity and liquor on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts You know, I haven't had cash flow. I mean, we never talk about that yesterday I'm a cash flow for freaking couple years and that so you didn't have like interest from some stuff reads. Yeah, you have all that stuff But it's not I don't look at this cash flow. No, yeah, like that's like yeah fighting equation. I look at that as like um You know, I mean, I was smart when I first sold the final time at least I just said if that cash You know, I know what I'm in the need you know for a year and then you let you everything go in the market Do it's the one you put enough in the bonds and then you take enough for another year again And then hopefully some equity sells somewhere. I've done all those things But I miss the fact that every month or every week my business was bill and money No, sure and next thing you know every month I had cash and it was just coming in and now it's like It's not that Yeah, that's that's the biggest problem when you have when you have a business You have a cash cow Lifestyle all good boom now you get a bunch of money mentally. You don't want to touch it Well, so many people businesses lifestyle and it was for me too. It's part of your life and I think if you If you run your business or you do a business you love you run it a certain way Where you do the right thing money comes yeah, you have to have a little luck You got to have the right product the right people the right you have to have it right That would be good But if you focus on the money, it's not gonna come if you do the right thing the money comes Yeah, and that's how I always was and then when you sell the business you get all the cash You're citing this hell you got a new bank account you take a picture I'm sure you did you take a picture of yourself with the when the wire transfer comes in you like that's me And then and then guess what 20 minutes later you're like you do actually do it when you get the cash yeah I didn't do it should have done I would take you like this And then I was like and in afterwards you feel like then you go through like the stages of guilt Yeah, yes, I I worked you know, I had this team it worked so hard for me And I felt I felt guilty still to this day. I can't talk to people because I feel guilty and you can't talk to them A lot of them I can't know. I mean did you have did you have stock options? Oh what happened was when the first exit We first sold half the business that took off. I had no problem with that That was mine and I was paid people really well. I paid them more than the market and because they worked hard And I treated them their family and then Before we exited when all the private equities got in everybody got phantom shares Which is yeah, you know, which is phantom is what it is and because we sold during COVID the numbers didn't hit what they thought So therefore the phantom shares didn't cash out the way they should so everybody was mad And as much as I wanted to take it out of my pocket I couldn't because I had a minimum and it wasn't a mental like sometimes we all have these mental numbers in our head You don't have a mental number. That's fine But it's a real number are you going to spit off the right amount of interest that's going to live your life You're not going to deplete your money. You're going to plan for worst case scenario That was the amount I had Left over whether it was low or high to someone else. It was right for me. It was right for me. It was it So If we sold four or five months earlier everybody would have maxed they would have maxed out all their shares But COVID came so still to this day. I feel bad. See anything you know that the way we done this one We sold because we had the same story with COVID but the whole Bug of stories of what happened but again when we sold there are some people that came really at the end And they're cash out wasn't big some people came early and they became multi-millionaires and some people came in And they were doing such a good job So what we did was and it was actually I was glad because my my previous partners Private equity. It's just a one that you love to hate They were amazing and they call me and they said hey, let's go and give them bonuses And they had no reason to do it either because that's it. They're getting out there That's they don't even know those people personally Like let's give them a bonus is whoever you think was involved in the business if it's not going to be So we we took a couple millions out and we just That's people that and I think almost every tons of people had Starcoption. So it was it was nice. So in that case For but it's it's a it's a challenge. Yeah, it is I mean at the end is I've never forget We're on a call with the investors everybody and we're trying to figure out, you know What to dole out because we didn't hit the numbers because of COVID and I threw seven figures more back in And it went to certain people and those are the people who are matter than anyone. Oh So it was it went to certain you know We had different tiers and I went to all of them and the the high earners and the ones who are the most mad And I was like, yeah, I can't help it. So I think I felt bad for like there were people That were like supposed to maybe get like 250 and they may have gotten like a thousand dollars And no matter what you give that person. Yeah, they're gonna be mad You can't make them happy and still to this day I'll feel bad because I wanted them to have their house paid off I wanted them to have these things. Yeah, in the end. I can't do anything about it You know, it's it's besides go build another business and make sure that you get them hired again And then treat them right next time that's my goal. That's my goal Yeah, that's that's nice. That's nice. So let's go introduce you. Okay. I think you'll do the best So before we start. Okay, we're neighbors You have a beautiful home and we're gonna use that in the intro It's one of the most spectacular ones actually in South Florida and you build it yourself after your exit Your name is Brad Tokerman. Yeah, Brad Totman. Yeah, and um, it was in the Wall Street drama. It was in the Wall Street drama Amazing job And I wanted to say we met first time when I came over to look at my place And you drove by and you saw my and I was with a boxy chump shirt and he said you're Joe, right? And I was like boxy chump like you need boxy chump. Yeah, it's a small world. I didn't know boxy my girlfriend new boxy I didn't know boxy. Yeah, because I don't expect a guy to know boxy But we had neutral friend from E.O. Yeah, yeah, so yeah, E.O. Which by the way, I never knew existed when I was in my own business I didn't know I just did everything in my own with the chip of my shoulder and I had to win That's the way to do it. It took points. I felt alone And so yeah, so there's a business called Zendu that I'm on a board of and I invested in and the CEO is a great great woman Lillian, yeah, and I don't know. I just forgot her name for a second I just spoke to her 20 minutes ago cameras. Yeah, Lillian. Lillian. Yeah, she's amazing. So And then so we always talked about you because she's always talking about growth hacking And I'm like, can you stop saying growth hacking? You know, I can't hear it anymore You know, but it's you were good at it. I mean, yeah, so that was my thing Yeah, so when you came over and you said yes And I you know, there's something before you buy a house when you meet the neighbors It does something to you. It's like I love this guy. I should have been an ass. It's a It's stuck with me. You sell your place. I'm here. I'm not going anywhere. I'll probably buy it. How long have you been here? How long have you been? I think three years in change three years. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah Yeah, so just for those who know Fort Lodil I think there was the Wayne high Zingas property and you bought it. Who's that for Wayne Zingones waste management? No, he wants waste management. He's a multi-billionaire self-made guy like a guy that didn't graduate now But he passed away. Oh, okay. He was a waste management. He owned a Miami Dolphins at one point. Splatbuster. Oh So I'm not I'm not including right now. Okay. No, it's funny because the word taxi comes by always and we're not telling lies about it So they talk about Wayne high Zingas and they talk about like everybody would know Not everybody knows who the guy is nor should they but he was some billionaire. He had multiple billing dollar companies at one point He owned almost this whole road. Yeah, so he sold it years before and it's that dormant some some fun bought it And this road was neglected. So You know, I'm looking for looking for land to build a house and you know, I think I felt in this town You can buy the nicest like Los Olas woman the nicest roads by a big piece of land right? Off of that eventually all the road yeah You know, we're getting close the roads and you're pretty good at that right? You've done this in this road and now you have another project room and talk about and talking about a little bit after But I want you to talk about your business that you exit how you build it up. What was it exactly? So I was originally a photographer. Okay And high school like I made fun of everybody like oh, you could take my kids high school portraits one day and as I can ask for you, but so I went to college for RIT and Which ironically was the best school in the country for photography? I never looked at it. I just knew it was and I hope to get in and I got in so You know, so long story is you know, you know, internships matter and one time and I took an internship in between summer juniors in your year in New York and Oh, we got the internship because one of my professors mixed me up with another kid. He literally mixed me up He thought I was someone else and he's a lot of brides out there. That's why lots what another bride Not a bread. His name was very close to mine, but not brad Johnny. No, no, no Another one is a bread. Do you know any bread? His name was bread. No, it's in the book. Yeah. Do you know any brads are now? No, not bread. No, not friends No, my wife thought she's British and she thought everybody in America was named Brad So it's pretty funny. She actually married a brat. I'm like Said her new was Brad was like revenge of the nerds, you know, that's it. Yeah, there's a lot of great. Oh my god That's it. So hold me a higher standard of bread but I so so I took so I got this job as internship by accident and Sure enough, it was in New York City. It was running like early days of digital photography So like really early days and I didn't know anything I just was I had a book below my desk and every time the guy walked out I read it and I learned what to do and So I you know fake it to you make it and I kind of did that but from there I met everybody in my entire career Literally launched from that all my big deals event early deals came on all my relationships came on because I was recommended for a job by accident That's amazing. It's ridiculous and I talk about this always I'm I'm open because luck is everything He can only be so good at some at a job and you'll still be broke I mean, you know when you said the word luck in Hebrew they they're saying that If you if you use the Kabbalah terms for it lacking it's three letter words in Hebrew and it's m z and l m is stands for place Makon z stands for time And l to do Right place right time and do you have to actually do it Yeah, so it is true. I think You know if you just talk about photography I went to school So the greatest photographers and our work was beautiful mine was and But I had that business Accument or I was able to turn into something else and more so they're not I was in the right place the right time So how did you build the business out of this because You spoke with the story downstairs, but I'm here. Okay, so go into it. So the first story you bought the oh Well, actually before that before that. So so funny story is when I when I was in this this New York job I shouldn't have had this woman walks in one day and she literally walked in like nosy as can be like she owned the place. I was like what the hell's going on It was like me in a room and she just literally it's like us here someone is walking through the cameras and like like she's been there Like who are you? What are you doing? It's just she started telling me she's from Fort Lauderdale and they're a pre-press house And they were putting a studio in and you know whatever she's looking researching and and I was like all right So I spoke to her for a few minutes and she's like if you ever want to move to Florida give us a call So I go back to college and then that winter to Rochester So you know, it's cold as fuck and it's snowing. So that winter I literally go outside to de-ice the car I fall in my ass and I walk up and I said to my girlfriend. It's time with my wife now Yeah, I said listen, instead of going to New York, let's just go to Florida and she's like what do you mean? I'm like well, I don't want to deal with this anymore and so I literally called the woman and long story short Next we know I had a job down here. So backtrack. I had a job. I shouldn't have had From an internship that you got lucky getting you got lucky some rando walks into the studio And you're a wife of the bank. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and she was on a visa. So we'll talk about that later So next we know we're fine ourselves on auto train two days after graduation. I'm working for this place And I worked there for about two years. I built a photo studio and I hate to say that's back when like people were barely doing photography and newspapers If you're sold products. Yeah, there's whatever. So so I so one of the bigger clients. We had the sports authority back in the day pre-dicks Dick sporting goods sorry and And we were taking pictures of shoes would be like hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of shoes and they were paying like 60 bucks a pop I was like 60 bucks 60 bucks 60 bucks But it wasn't my money. It was the guy who owned the place So eventually you know, I had some interns and one of them happened to have crazy cash from the family and And we just became friendly and I remember going into my boss and I said hey listen I just need a raise and he's like when you mean I'm paying you two years out of school You're making cash. I'm like I know I am But I also know what I'm building for you And I said so I think it's just the amount of time and effort of hours I'm putting in I'm killing myself And he's like you're not worth it. And I'm like all right fine. So I literally asked my intern And I said hey, I met him at Arby's on Oakland Park Boulevard and I said which isn't there anymore and I still like Arby's fries though, but so I said let's meet. Let's talk. We and I made him and I'm like let's start a business So I don't have the cash So luckily he had the cash who loaned me the money and we started the business together and That lasted because it was you know, he didn't really need the money and the last of the couple of years and I bought him out and From there on I just had to I had to win So I just kept growing the business and you know, I didn't have an EO I didn't have anybody. I was just learning on the fly What's yours 99 99, okay, and then from 99 you run it by yourself. You had You started hiring. Oh, yeah, I really had people work. Yeah. Yeah, how many W2s did you have when you bought him out? Three and then when you sold the company answers when you merged the company later on and sold it how many We just exited we had about thousand W2s and maybe four thousand ten ninety nine. So it wasn't a small business, right? What the criteria more than 500 employees? It's no longer. Yeah, yeah, I was big And it's like it's a it's a photo studio. Yeah, business So yeah, we were doing a lot of portraits for people in high school. Okay. Oh, I'm kidding. Oh, I've no idea So when it's funny when people ask me what do you do really? I'm like porn and they're like oh really? Oh look at you I'm like, no, that's right. That would be good for these podcasts. We would have a lot of quick. Well, I talk most people I do that. So it works up. I tell them it's just my wife and I know all the porn's about us. No, so So, but anyway, so we're not deleting that part. Don't go back and say it's really not about us That's why we give him alcohol guys. Yeah, so so I need more you can get your sponsor going so What do we do? So if like let's say go to shop luckily is the internet so early days it was around Newspaper ads, right? So if you shop in a newspaper. We did the photos. Oh, actually, I'll take the killer. Are you paying attention? I don't feel like you mind me here Thanks, bro. I'm gonna ask you a question and then look somewhere else Don't say that on this guy. Yeah, I'm okay. Go. I don't want to tell you now max. So We were talking about it. I forgot. Oh, what do we do right? Yeah, what do you do? So Early days was the newspaper, you know, and I used to tell people if you put in your birdcage Yeah, all the piece of papers all those ads. That's what we did So made my money on selling stuff You know the photography and all that stuff the Sunday circulars you would get and made a living I built a whole business on it designed photography copywriting Multiple languages whatever and an internet came around and next thing you know We're doing thousands of images instead of doing like 20 in week. We're doing 20,000 a week So and that needed a lot of technology. So we built our own technology That allowed us to tie into the backend systems and in shipping fulfillment and all that stuff So we'd find ourselves in the warehouse distribution centers in the middle of nowhere So if something shipped from China, we know it second hit the warehouse Photograph it do all the copywriting all the retouching we off-shore we had our own offshore components next thing You know it was live within like a couple hours after at the warehouse So speed to market everything right? So if you you know from your days if you have sims in the warehouse You don't make any money. You get to get a move again. You're more like you don't sell right? Yeah So I'm trying to understand I'm going to go because I want to understand to see a company that sells shoes right now or clothing online right They would go and Say I'm buying a thousand styles every day and putting it online and it thousand styles a day Now one option is to have in-house photography To get everything and upload it The other option is to go to someone like you and say we're just going to ship you those products and then just for the garbage whatever Building me for each style every day one thousand right so is that is that yeah and build a machine around it But a lot of times these companies you know It's one thing to have employees to be able to turn a workout and in a perfect world something's coming every day Doesn't come that way and let's say you're a bigger company that you have three brands and Guess what Christmas hits the same time for all three brands every sale hits the same time for every three every three brands So next you know you're hiring triple staff and then you have your peaks. They're all working Then suddenly you have everybody not working. Yeah, so or you just hire a portion of it Then you want to freelancing everything so it's cyclical right? So a lot of times people bring it in-house and a lot of people people kick it out of house So there were times we lost business in house our times we gained it back out Do you think if you run your own clothing company Would be worth it to build it in-house if I would have to weigh it. So let's say like I'm thinking that clients that I know we did and we have in my mind I'm thinking fushinova would it be worth it for a company like fushinova that upload about 1500 styles a day Would it be worth it to buy an outsource it? I doubt they're even doing all the photos himself They're probably getting a lot of inventor provided so even other buying and manufacturers Whatever they might be getting I guess like they don't have just a stock photo if it's the same models and so there's a couple ways you can do it nowadays You can also not shoot the model on a model and they're usually done on it too But the reality is I would probably It's not fair because I know what to do. So I'd build the machine You know you build the machine and like there's actually stuff that we worked on that That were actually was in my brain. I don't think we ever worked on I wanted to That's what happens when you bring private equity. You can't do your your your games and things you want to do anymore So I was trying to cut out every step in the process and that's how you can get them So if I'm someone who I know and put a thousand a day out, I'll do it in-house if it's you know the system So you can build it in-house and you build it in-house so you know you can tie it into your systems right Let's say that everything's RFID you can reduce your touches So like if you take two steps out of your process and you do that a hundred times a day you lose 200 steps How much more can you get done in that time? If someone's listening right now and they're selling online I guess that would be good and good. I'm available for consulting. No, yeah It's available. I'm allowed again. It's not cheap. Okay, but what's that automatic? What would you recommend them doing if they have products, random products Every day that they have to shoot. Why is there any system that you use this I think everybody should have a minimum in-house Not everything. I think if you have enough going on you should have someone every day because no matter where you have social content you got your other things you can get a basic I'll say I need to say basic but like a mid to low level photographer have them on staff every day They're gonna get stuff done that you need just make sure they have other stuff to do and know you're not gonna maximize them Then when you have your peaks and valleys then you have a partner do it That's the people I always felt were most successful when you did a bit in-house you did a bit out of house And I think the world is like that I always say people jump from ditch to ditch. You're in this ditch. It's all wrong. Then you jump in that ditch It's all wrong and you jump back in that ditch And that's and that's I'm not getting political, but that's the political life too It's a reward. Why about somewhere in the middle? So I think when you think of content you should have a little bit in-house And a little bit out of house and he flex either way and it's about having a partner that you have out of house So in the end, you're not negotiating them every week because you know They're being fair. You're being fair. It's a win-win in the end if everybody understands what the deal is where so I would say It's everybody that's out there. You can do a little bit of both Yeah, I do that you're differentiating like your business when it was the one that was on the come-up lake What made you different than everyone else is trying to do this? When it was just me it was bringing donuts to clients I mean, I was differentiating. I was nice. I showed up. I got the work done if I screwed up. I admitted it It's honesty and delivering over delivering and delivering again And then being nice at the same time treating people nice if they're in your office you do the right thing and then over time Became about your team does your team have the same mentality? They have to be kind they have to over deliver they have to care and that was always what it was I was I hired people that cared And I think because especially early days I was with them So they knew I was with them and they knew I might have owned the place, but I was there with them I didn't go home early. I stayed with them. I did everything that they did and then you had you close how did you close You and plus team close some of the largest enterprise accounts because you eventually became the incumbent You became the largest provider so you're closing like the Wal-Mart and the Gatorade I was looking at the list of clients that you work with to the same The clients were big And it's funny because when you're chasing everybody it's easy because you're looking ahead But when you're in the front you don't know what's behind you. So you it's a different fear Before it's less fearful when you're chasing the wind you you're chasing with like you're salivating your anger You want to win and then when you're there all you do is looking behind your shoulder It's it's more stressful because if you lose and you're whacking clients I mean whacking clients whacking employees you want to do that their team their family They have yeah, and I I couldn't handle that. I was stressful. I liked winning I never wanted to exit at the end eventually I get to the front now time to sit it was no more front in that I think yeah I think I exited the right time the first time I brought equity in I was the right time. Yeah How was it how was it the right time? Why I felt the business was at was at the right time from the e-commerce world It was allowed to leave I left some skin on the you know skin on the table meet on the bone What do you want to say for the next group to come in And I was and I rode my you know I rode half the equity Um, you know, so I felt that was the right time. I got out. I had enough. I was good. I was sad I was you know, I was I was in good shape Then the second time we were about six months too late COVID hit You know, so that's what life is you can't you just can't expect Everything to go perfect. So let's let's walk through like all the different Like the first I guess Exit event where you where you took some money out I'm gonna ignore you while you talk hold on you go for it. That's it. It's a walk look at the picture. Yeah Yeah, how long let me talk Walk through walk through the first exit event And then because I want the whole story of first exit event then what you negotiated partners were like group Yeah, yeah, I'll be if you want to go on this. I don't know. That's fine so so I because I went through a couple of early on I had companies to try to acquire me because I was growing I was you know at that point I was like a 40-man shop doing doing a couple million profit a year I mean, we were doing well And so he had public companies trying to acquire us and and say come in run our run our content whatever I went through two of those with one company and I and I walked both times First this first time was just too little money the second time was the right money And I just left because I just didn't want to I was never planning on leaving And I just couldn't see myself working for people who were disrespecting me during the during the process I was equally to blame though because I brought in bring in an investment banker into that transaction I just thought I could do with a buddy And I advise anybody for every new transaction bring an investment banker in if you think you're giving them a commission Let them take it because they're going to make more money for you And they're going to get the deal done and then you hope your attorney doesn't screw up the deal too So so that was the But no first time founders ever know how to deal with an acquisition of that like No, you don't know anything until you know exactly so you were you know You mentioned like you know my books were in a hundred percent. I was trying to figure that shit I like yeah This is like a slap to the face to anybody who tries to go through an accident But the first time right it's funny sec is the first time First two times my books were a mess because I was so young I didn't care when I finally did the transaction of You walked away from the one where I brought private equity. Okay If I actually ran if I hired a CFO Years earlier I would have exited for more money In fact, I may not even sold a business because I would have had more visibility to my business I probably would have been able to run it better So I was so caught up in controlling everything and the financials made sense to me it was my business I predict everything I knew to the penny what we were going to make in profit But guess what only I knew it So the the I was that cog in the wheel and I learned from the failed transactions that I walked away from that was the cog in the wheel And I took myself out of that except on the finance side. I was still intimately involved and And I knew in the end if I bid this on a job. I knew my profit was going to be and it just it worked I had a plan executed But then you bring in private equity and everything changes right so but but back to your question was So then I finally you know, I have to go through his failed acquisitions I realized I hit scale and I was growing and I was like all right my next step is to go back home Go back to New York and open up a studio there And I didn't want to be one of everybody else doing the same thing And I was used to dealing with clients around the US not in New York very different mentality You know, it's just different So I approached my competitor and we were Probably both around let's say 40 million in revenue each and we only had a hundred thousand dollars overlap in clients So wow totally different markets mind yeah, yeah So all this time I thought we were competitors we weren't you weren't going after different clients I've been looking my rearview mirror at the wrong people So I probably could have been happier But anyway, so I said to him listen, I'm going to come to New York. We're going to compete against each other I just swung for the fans. I'm like well, I just want to just get together. Let's learn about each other Let's look at your books. Let's look at my books. We'll see if we emerge and fast forward a couple months They're all good guys and and we we said all right. Let's do this. Let's merge our businesses And we were going to merge it So we got together as a van shake and we're all that type of people we literally handshake and we do amazing Officially merge until we close a private equity transaction. So we consummate it at the private action wow private equity So we went almost a year Being as one this is so rare. So you went. I'd never do it again 40 million dollars stressful And chicken. Oh, yeah, I should know that's not recommended. Don't do it You got lucky this was bad you get screwed. I've gotten screwed more times in my life But I apparently this one you guys are still fine. Yeah, I'm friends with them. Yeah, it was it was complicated because our businesses were around the same size ballpark They had sexier clients than me But I think you know, you know, I think we're more I think EBITDA wise probably because they were in New York. They were headed higher markets There was this different and that and it was interesting and I loved there we were very different I'd locked people into contracts my goal was to get into a three-year deal And what I would do is after a year and a half and negotiate another three-year deal They had a different mentality no contract. They said We don't care. You don't like us. We don't like you. We could fire each other and they ran their business that way And it worked for them. It just wasn't how I did it So when we got together we did that but it was five partners in me. So they had five and me So let's just say we're 50-50 five guys on an exit split the same money that I got. Yeah, so it definitely created a certain level of I'll say Any word I come up with isn't me right just comfort. Yeah, so and and and rightfully so I understood But it was right for them to do the deal and it's right for me to do the deal So we rolled a half the equity and kept the business going They brought private equity and they brought the different CEOs in and and very often you have these dreams and you have a vision But you bring private equity didn't want to have their CEO running it because I know you didn't want to run it I didn't want to run. I just wanted to be straight. I'm a strategy guy I was happy to deal with sales and strategy But to the burden of having that many employees and the risk and all that stuff on my mind every day I would always have on my mind But I knew what I was good at and I was good at creative and strategy and that's where I should be Yeah, I was doing creative a strategy for my business But I would be flying to different clients board meetings constantly now be the strategy guy and I would and I still do this today I shake the tree beyond where it needs to be shaken. That's a word. Shaken. Shaken. Shaken. Shaken. Shaken. Shaken. I don't know what it's all cut off I really don't I think it's just I don't just suck. Yeah, yeah, so I shook the tree No, I shake the tree anyway. I shake it more than needs to be so the people who are on your team or an client Just elevate their thought a little bit knowing that I'm whacked. Yeah, so I'll go well beyond knowingly and I hope they never accept what I'm suggesting they do just to get them somewhere Yeah, so and there are times where I don't do that. It's kind of like you're on mask right there If you didn't if you didn't see the missile blow up on me there. That means you didn't try hard enough It is kind I mean, yeah, it's I mean, I always said go big or go home, right? I mean and you have to think big Yeah, I have to you know again, my career got started because I was By accidentally selected for something So I always looked at it that way you got to take chances and that's and that's what I always did Like shaking hands and doing a merger So we did that and they brought a bunch of CEOs ain't over the time frame and like most private equity transactions happen soon or later They tell the CEO to leave And I'm like Joe what are you doing? He's like well, I'm still working with the company. I'm like didn't you sell you all a brand I rolled a lot whatever blah blah blah blah. I'm like dude. You're not gonna last me like yes No, you're not I think I told you like in an hour. Yeah, I met you. Hi Joe your boxy charm. You're not staying so but And it's it's it's funny. It's it's funny that you mentioned that because now you just brought back that memory Sorry, it took me about a couple weeks When I saw the meetings that I have to go through and say I'm not sent for me. No, no, no It's just because you know what it is when you build something from scratch It's it's who you are. It's in your DNA and for me, I love building stuff I just do and I love the people. I love you're you know You're in it together and I also love the fact that you can when you're a CEO you have the ability to do what you want Okay, and what I mean by that is you can take chances and the chance is sometimes you can't put on a spreadsheet You can't put that chance in a presentation But you know, it's right and when it's private equity you can't do that I had when we brought the private equity and I had a plan. I knew exactly what we need to do What if working the end? I don't know. I think it would have and and I said let's just follow this plan But no matter who comes in your business they buy you For what you are, but they don't plan on running you for what you are. Yeah, they don't know who you really are Which is interesting. I was I was I'm curious if when you do I'm actually curious about this whole merger situations I've never actually seen one done successfully somebody that I know some curious about Not just acquisition like 50 50 coming in how do you merge the cultures the business practices you have two different You know ideal customer profiles that you're going active. So that's it was hard 21 Second point is I'm also curious about what's the private equity playbook that actually implants a successful CEO and do a business that they're not emotionally involved in Well, I think I respect and I really do I respect the guys who came in and did the investments with us and I'm thankful, right And I'm not just saying that I am it's not easy and coming into a creative business. It's not easy So I think when you if you're a private equity come into a creative shop You're not going to get it because it's two different ways of thinking you're either thinking by spreadsheets Or you're thinking by creative artists and then the spreadsheets are part of that But you can't always make the decision like I said that's based on do you think that's the way? I mean, I think that's Traditionally how we would think right because you would think that okay that spreadsheets and processes And then you have the creative, but I think the third part is just simply results Listen revenue 50s everything. Yeah If you don't lose a client your numbers have happy they're gonna stay where they are Just those mailbox products have to be watered down if you're if you're reading No, but if you if you go I feel like when someone goes and takes over the challenge starts where they They focus on on process not results and that's when you start having Too many meetings that are unnecessary you everything is equally important instead of actually focus on what's really important So and then you don't get the results and that's where you start arguing and you like it's a hard to see The trees with all the forest because they're gonna fall they're gonna find that Well that idea wasn't good. No, no, no, it's the way that our life is right now when we have to be on seven hours eight hours 14 hours corporate meetings Well, we didn't have that before and then nothing gets executed right I think there's a little bit of that true truthfully everywhere And I think think about this like let's talk about like how where people came from right I was creative not a very great creative was better a business best still creative And now it's funny as I'm good at creative. It wasn't as good before I was But anyway, and then people come from prestigious colleges that are great into all the all the business and science of business and all that stuff They're not entrepreneurs and I hate the word entrepreneur because everybody says they are one and often they always talk about Oh, I had five businesses. I'm like all right But how many of them are still in business and to do sell any if you didn't sell any of them and you're not business anymore You're not really an entrepreneur. You just start a lot of shit So so I don't like the word entrepreneur, but anyway, but if I'm to say I'm one That's who I am. It's in my DNA. Yeah, to think that way and it's in their DNA At a private equity to look at spreadsheets and think the long game and I remember one time they said bread It's a marathon. Why why is such a rush? It businesses a marathon and I I'll never forget saying this I go and marathon. Yeah, it's 26 and whatever miles point whatever But it's sprints throughout it just like a bike race or sprints if you miss that one sprint You never know when to marathon. Yeah, because you lost that sprint. So I look at business It is a long game back then I didn't see this long game was it was life or death every day Yeah, but now I look at his long game, but you also have to be ahead of it and as an entrepreneur sometimes you're too far ahead I was too far ahead a few times on investing in software way too early designing it certain things way too early I was and I've done that and and you see you learn from that and I think you have to learn from your mistakes So I think I respect the value of what a private equity person would come into But if I were to go down that path again now I'm more knowledgeable and more mature I would choose them differently or be upfront with them With what the business is like and being controlling more But because I was doing a simultaneous merger with five partners I just want to get deal across the table and I thought they were good guys. They are good guys It just in the end wasn't a right mindset That's the issue because that's usually the case. So by the time private equity comes in The entrepreneur the founder is like I just need to get this deal done Like there's a reason why you're shopping to deal around like it's a process. Yeah, I mean now I've been through it on both sides because I've also been on the acquiring side you go through the valuation You get it right yeah, then they send you the paperwork you devalue it a little bit Then you see it you see asking for their health insurance You realize and not providing enough health insurance whatever you devalue it again Then you realize not putting enough in 401k you devalue it again you just start beating them down right and it's true It's those things they should have been doing but you're putting a multiple on that. So whatever you What do you if anybody who ever looks to sell business? Whatever you just what do you your L.O.I Looks like the odds are you finishing a deal at that L.O.I. or zero That's why it's a L.O.I. It's non-binding It's intent So I think that's that's the important thing to think about you know well The philosophy that I heard years before I sold my company and I had to exit right because I had the first and then the second So every time I talk about something it can refer to yeah my first partners as well equally Oops, so It's like the idea was to sell when you don't have to sell Because you need to go and be comfortable walking away So the number you got is the number because in both cases I get the number that I had on my L.O.I Because every time I was willing to walk away and I figured the one of the times when I negotiated I remember that you know the numbers every time we're like crazy numbers for me First time in second time both of them are life-changing events And then I sold the other company that I have so I've been through yeah actually I've been through three Okay, I want to say I've been through three exits, but um The idea is that If you're not willing to walk away, you're gonna get squeezed. Oh, I'm still gonna hear it absolutely conversation You need to go and tell yourself If I am not selling this is my plan B and you got to get fucking excited I agree with you plan, but this is where the handshake with the merger before a deal didn't work Because if I walked away, I was already in bed And they may not have wanted to do a deal again So at that point I was like just get a deal done. I don't care Yeah, and then when Kobe came how much were you shaved like percent of joys? It was less about it was a little bit about a dollars upfront. Let's say Let's say 20% upfront, but then they put a liquidation preff on the back end So which in my mind does like outcars, you know where you didn't care you like I'm selling 50% I knew I was set anyway. I didn't want to go through it already I knew it was already life changing and I was fine And I truly believed that I was gonna be involved into the like died And I believe that the business was gonna do what it was gonna do And and I'm care So if I lost a little bit on the back end I didn't care because I knew I was making a better decision for my family And for myself knowing that could put that behind me Yeah, I've been reinvesting the business. I was dead for real. I was just reinvesting the business So I finally all right. I'm good. I'm set. I can walk away I need to understand something because I come from an operator side like everybody here And now I'm going in on the investment side and looking at private equity deals and very small and looking at some venture capital deals and angel investment And I don't looking at these deals. I still don't understand why I'd ever remove a CEO that I bet on And it doesn't make sense to me But this seems to be a common theme and I'm trying to wrap my head around why they do that. I think Very rarely does the CEO make a founder. Okay, so it's different If you're coming to a company as a CEO and it's not your business from the start I can see them being there forever because they're already a little more. I'll say corporate savvy Whereas if you're the founder you're not you're just used to doing it yourself And that's going to always have a clash with private equity Very rarely. I think anybody can continue onward And I still have seen that since I've left my business. I see it very differently now So now I'm like they're I'm like that founders never going to do that. You know, I know So I see it now from the other side So I know I was a little emotional back when too. I was like because I was so high-strung and I knew what I needed to do I knew if I had this the merger and the private equity money I can go buy these four companies do a couple things package it up and sell it and they would have made five X And I actually did the math. I had the whole plan. I said they could five extra money in three years, right? Great, great win And I was my plan and but three became four four became five and then COVID came so But and I don't know if they went my path maybe it wouldn't have worked. I still think it would have But but maybe wouldn't I don't know. So did I exit and do well? Yeah Did COVID kill COVID kill us in a second? I know with an upside that do you lose an upside? I lost a big lot of upside upside on the second sale I need to hurt you after it hurt you because after you get the money, that's it. It is it No, okay, I could have had that and now that's funny is what's funny is that it was early COVID So I was happy just to be done because I was worried about risk because they were doing cash calls Because you suddenly product wasn't coming from Asia, you know, you just have issues. I was like, let's just be done And then after a year of lockdown and whatever and everything else now I'm happier than ever because it gave me a chance to sit at home for a year So indeed compress because I wasn't really allowed to work You know, so it was in the end I wish I had that extra money in the account But at the same time, I'm actually I think a better person today because of The situations that came for I learned yeah more mature about it now But I might just tell myself that so I can sleep better at night also But you know in the end a lot of people got hurt who I wished did better or did anything I feel a little too therapy straight now for brand I feel that for sure We need to have a coach No, trust me. I to be able to talk about shit like this and be honest about it It's it's important to understand Well, because look at it But notice this, okay People that get stupid amount of cash can live forever lavish lifestyle still have problems We get anxiety after you get them and you get regrets that it wasn't exactly the same way There are eagle issues after you sit around the table with another person that take over you And you don't really realize it when you haven't before like But why would you get angry? You get all that cash when you get there. It's part of your image It's part of who you are It's part of how people looked at you and how all that is gone and that has a value of currency of its own What are you doing that? Well, it's funny because I know people who sold their businesses And they've been worried that they were a one-trick pony And like well, do you need to be a two-trick pony? You know what I mean? Why does that have to be a pony? You know, so And I want to know, do you see the value for it? It's funny because something I do, I see it a little differently because Part of me is happy just to chill with my family now You know, at time I was on the road for years And even when I was home, I was always there But mentally, I wasn't always there So I've done, you know, have great time with my children, my wife, and be a better person from that But at the same time, my identity used to be Brad, the guy who had this business, and it was, I thought, a great person Not a good person, but that everybody knew was always going to be there for them and whatever And I was Brad, he was the business guy And then it was also Brad, the guy who was the parent of these kids and husband, whatever And suddenly that business is gone And then you're like, oh, now I'm Brad, the dad It's just the dad And I was totally cool with that too And eventually you realize, all right, well, I'm pretty young What I'm going to do the rest of my life And it's in you If there are people and I wish it was like this way Who are happy, just getting up and doing almost as little as possible that day That's not me, I need to be working So it was really difficult for me to get How much do you mix to be the guy with the ego in the room? I still feel like I am that way I mean, think about how you run it I would do it differently I had a lot of emotion and stress So you look back and you say, what can you do? And I think I wouldn't change anything Because I don't know if he would have gotten anywhere If I didn't have that If I wasn't that high stress level or whatever I don't know if I could have pushed a business to wherever it would have been Looking at it now I think unfortunately, sometimes ignorance is bliss Right? So as younger as naive, I was ignorant I just had one goal in mind And that was to win at all costs and get there And Kumbaya, let's do it together And now I'll be thinking a little differently So I don't know if I would do it the same But I probably know I'd do it better I just don't know And like back to you said, luck I mean, I don't know if the luck would be on my side this time But I can tell you moving forward Everything I get involved in I look differently I look at it I want us to talk about that So I'm a couple of months ago Six, seven months ago You told me that you have a new project So you were able to have this city Commission for you Den acres to go ahead and build Peakable And I saw the plant It looks amazing It's something that I mean I saw as I said that we all put money in right away Just How did you come up and ask you either I didn't even ask you just show me what it is And you know that when you show Someone is going to come What else do we do with your cash? I have to park it somewhere It's like let's do it It's like How did you come up with that? So Way back You know COVID happened right So we all had nothing to do So I started playing pick up all of my son and some friends And my father actually played it for 15 years And I made fun of him for the last 12 I didn't know was that over till before Oh it's been 1960's 1960's I don't know that Yeah it's been around forever man It's just it's silly name most people to play it But it's grown and grown and grown and grown So now if you know Now it's on CBS It's on yeah It's everywhere But about two years ago I was looking for land I was like all right this would be a great thing I'll put a couple of courts in I'll put a dome in what is inflatable domes And I'll just bank the land for 10-15 years And then you pick a pickable Be a place to To you know to build Because the community is so good People who play pickable I play pickable with people you never would have met in my life It's people who blow fire at like the micie Yeah it's a great guy Next to a like a reverend from one of the sports teams Next to another CEO of another company You don't know who anybody is You're all just the same on a court Playing with a pickable was a classic ball in a paddle So I met friends You know I ran a business for so many years I didn't have friends I was friendly with everybody But I didn't have friends So you realize sitting home every day Nothing to do You have no business to run You have no friends Especially during lockdown And you know my son only wants to see me so much My daughter Half the time is my son And my wife was just over me So So anyway so I'm looking for land And you just you couldn't find it It was in places I didn't want to go Right And I was trying to find a business I was looking to open on Los Ols here A like a high end premium tourist store There's none exist around here And but then I found out the rent was like 85 plus cam I was like still I'm paying $100 of foot for this So I said forget that But so the pickle law eventually I'm like this isn't going to work So I was a guy in a court We call him the pickleball mayor Because he's like Mr. Pickleball He deals with the city And I said let's let's let's do something together So we hired consultants And we approached the city And it's been almost two years So 18 months in theory since the paperwork And we finally got approval Just I've never dealt with government And they were doing the government process I respected I understand it now I didn't understand it before And we got lucky we got there How do you how do you law view the government You have attorneys And yeah And what makes some change in mind on something It wasn't necessarily about change in mind It's about finding the You know they have to understand the reason behind things like that Right so Again I'm not a developer Some people say all the developers How developers a guy who lives on a street Who wants to do something good So yeah it's trust right If you're a developer you want to build a 50 story building That's one thing If you're a guy who wants to build pickleball And I got to tell you two years ago You weren't talking about pickleball People weren't talking about So there's just two years in blew up I'm not pulling like last year So my brother would make fun of me constantly about it And now he texts me every day Photos of people in New York He's playing pickleball or hobo And the reality is two years ago The commissioners didn't know Didn't didn't didn't see why they needed it So in the end attorneys there You hire attorneys for the right reasons You know and they know They know how to handle situations And I think in the end it's about convincing five people That's a good idea And then from there You have to there's a whole long process That I still don't understand at all And I believe you just do the right thing And I kept saying Let's do the right thing This is going to be something for the community It's forty two courts right It's forty two pickleball courts Yeah plus a restaurant And a bunch of other things on a lake And we're trying to make a place where Listen like there's so much heat out there Right That just is Imagine you go a place where you just want to have fun and hang out And you don't care who you're with So you can do that playing pickleball And then we're making this whole lake side We're redesigning Or I'll say revitalizing this lake front There's a lake and for a lawyer Nobody knows about And we're going to redo the beach Make the lake swindle And the freshwater lake Freshwater, freshwater So you can swallow if you can't swim That's okay So But the So we're revitalizing this And so we've probably actually see it Locals and tourists will come You can be yourself Hang out, have fun So just took a long time I mean it takes time Government who's a long time But we're very fortunate to get the land You know and You know we're very fortunate to get the land To be able to do this And you know we're paying We have a very fair rate for the year Few yearly rate And then we have a not-for-profit And charity side That we're actually raising money For the city and the parks So we're also renovating some properties We're giving training to the teachers And all the schools And for a lawyer now We're giving equipment We're doing Every whole initiative Every thing Yeah, yeah Yeah, because it's not like Again I said it earlier with the business If you do the right thing Money should come So for my feeling here Is if we can make a nice place Where the community can go They're going to see an injury They're going to play pick-a-ball They're going to come meet friends I love destinations I think I love destinations I mean, so for Florida There is come like a secondary Market it's not the primary market Like Miami But Miami doesn't It's not known for pick-a-ball So anyone that's kind of What pick-a-ball is going to start coming around And the reason I like it It's because of your own property over here And actually I mean I live in Florida So it's just Every time there's a new destination That Miami doesn't have a figure It's great because It's going to be that much More reasons for people to consider for Florida Because they have over The Palm Beach had A Goldman Sachs office Miami had but Not in Fort Florida Yeah Like you want your properties to Appreciate and want a place to be better And you want a place so Every time I hear a new destination I said that's also I mean that's one of the reasons I told you Okay, so you've never done Like Restaurants, brick and mortar, anything So I grew up In the old days when you had our kids Right And my family ran our kids In outdoor amusement parks For this company And so I grew up in that space So did I just Learned by being there I was the guy who fixed the video games Who They used to send me to this one location Of Long Island to To figure out on the carnies All the guys that were doing the games Who was stealing So I bring a girlfriend I go get a cash I go out there I play all games I go home and go Those three people stole So and they were doing In this weird ways That normal people wouldn't see So I learned a lot about Business, about real people in life About that entertainment world And all of this stuff Just by being there every day And then after that Just understanding people As far as food and beverage goes All my studios had bars And we had catering every day And some of it was in house We had a catering side in New York But But it's not my world So I learned You hired good people So you hired the right people You hired the right consultants And you build a place Where people want to work You're not going to always Be perfect But if you do the right thing You're going to get the right people So that's That's how we're looking I mean the right consultants The right You know The right people who are going to manage And fortunately A lot of good people play pickle ball A lot of good people Who run restaurants play pickle ball They want to come work for us So it's Pretty I know You're looking at me laughing Like what the hell is going on Not just fascinating I think it's awesome I mean I read something today That there was a company Using this in their marketing Materials Saying that pickle will come Bring the world together And I was like But But it's kind of true It is kind of true You know Like give the shop And just do you It's a plastic ball in a pound Go ahead and have fun Right So this Okay So this is what you This is like your main focus right now Like outside of real estate Yeah Full-time right now getting off Yeah, just getting through the city now It's getting through Design Building permits Instruction All that stuff The business model We have a pro shop You have it I'm basically Is it perfect Edd business I'm building A restaurant A sports club A fitness center And a pro shop So I have four businesses Starting at one So it's true It's true It's true That's true That's here I thought Funny story is My mother used to be a Denmother A strip club Oh what A Denmother Someone has to run Girls at a strip club If forever ruined strip clubs for you That would ruin strip clubs That would come into your house And Thanksgiving I swear I knew girls like Your mom is my mom I'm like no My mom is my mom She's your stripper mom That's awesome Yeah That's awesome Yeah It's okay So You have the exit event Now you have some spare time This is what you're working on now Where else do you put money What's your Is it real estate I've been putting my time Places also So You're talking about advising And mentoring Yeah so I'll sit on some boards I'll invest in some companies You know But I have to like to see I'll have to like the people And I have to like the product Yeah And because even if I lose Over time I still want to enjoy the time I'm doing it right And I'm putting enough in now Where I don't mind losing it right So it's You have I'm not going to throw it all in Because I know what I need to Live the rest of my life And not be stupid So So you just choose the right projects And now I'm Showing stuff every day You know once you hit it You can smell it too When people text you had to know Where you had to get me nice For two or three texts And then they're going to ask for the money You know So that's why I was not going to ask you So But anyway So you can smell it So I've seen it so many times I'm like they're good people But they don't know how to run a business Or especially if they're just starting And they're run before And I like The fact is I've never run a restaurant But I know how to hire people that could But if you never owned anything But yeah, I know how stupid I was So And then you have great products Great projects But you just don't see That they're ever going to get there Right So you see the reason is not too I've seen more reasons not to invest You know the best deal you ever do Is the one you don't do So So whatever Whatever you're comfortable saying But like what have you invested in it's one What have you invested in that hasn't won That's been your biggest loss It wasn't a big dollar one But I started this brand Two years ago after the election Instead of make America create again I started Mac at make America kind again So I started a website Maca.com Macastore.com And it was all just like It was tongue-in-cheap Nothing was nasty It's just be kind Don't just do it Whatever And I think I sold a couple of shirts To a few friends You're good To see some deceased or something No, not at all Actually, I still have the URL Anybody wants to buy it? It's available I don't know all these other ones around it too So And I still think Mac it works But the hate sells more than Loud love Right So But I mean That wasn't a tree hog around it That wasn't being crazy Or anything like that You know what I mean I was just being like Let's have some fun with it So that was You know But I gotta tell you That was That kept me busy You know That's COVID time It kept me busy for a couple of months I literally designed the shirts I built the website And Shopify myself I was starting to do the marketing Again How many styles do you have? I was bored So I wasn't making hundreds So I just kept making more And my goal was to figure out Quickly what was working and not And then just whack it down to a low amount And I still have the website We'll see how it goes You've got a bunch of shirts now I took it all No You know what I was doing was So I was testing it I was doing fulfill in demand So I just had the guys They print on demand and share for you And it's really nice to do a simple job It doesn't look as good But it's good enough So So I was doing that just test it out And also It gave me a chance Because in the past I don't know about you You had a team of people I was just having a team of people I would go in a room like this Bring in eight people I'd go in a whiteboard Write some crap up I didn't have the two days I didn't have any team That forced to have one person Oh eventually Before you were done Yeah When you were done with the business You had a team Yeah It depends for one But yeah Yeah So I might create If so I bring my creatives I throw some crazy ideas out I give them the lead I come back the next day It would look beautiful Right Now suddenly I'm home By myself I get nothing All the working is you And I got no I got no pull anymore Because I'm not hiring anybody So next you know I'm like All right, I'll learn how to do this So it was good to do So That wasn't a big fail Get me busy My wife thought I spent Like hundreds of thousands of dollars on it And she's like What do you mean You spend so much money I'm like Actually I spent like six grand on it You know I said But it was probably It's okay Probably about five million in my time Yeah So And then I invested it is There's a There's brands that I've I've invested Or taken You know We're consulting roles There's one called Johnny O Which is a men's apparel They have a little guy All in a surfboard And There's a good friend of mine He's on a marketing tech site And I'm the creative side So we came in We modified You know We made update to their brand Website technology You know Looking at acquisition And all that stuff And I think they've Four or five X They're revenue Since we got involved So They did great brand I gotta give them credit And I think In the end We just gave it a little Sometimes you bring something From the outside Give it a little push Yeah And then Your market To where it being Yeah And then And then My partner On the tech side It's interesting Creatives And the creative side Which is what I do You can swoop in And swoop out The marketing tech They're there forever You know I mean Because they never changes And then Creative You kind of refresh So I think that That worked That really well I've actually taken some What do you mean When you say Take what do you mean Take And what What's I do What Exactly What are they doing In marketing Take marketing Take Take Take On the tech So everything From the whole back Into the website To dealing with the Customer analysis stuff To You know All the tools you put in place I don't know Who shot me What's that Social media Of course All that Yeah Was it Undertaker Was it under creative That's interesting You say that Because it's a mix of both And when he Talk And it's funny As my friend Kurt He sold He had a digital tech agency And he sold it years ago I think Publices One of those Pick Farms And We talk about it That If we just did what we do Together And we started a business again We kill it Because I respect the tech He respects the creative And when you do it together You get Like you're not just thinking about Your cost acquisition Because normally There People just trust the Facebook algorithm Yeah it works Well can you make it better Right Can we dial in a little bit more Can you get the creative more Can you understand Like what's your cost acquisition fine Is there a return read on that Are you looking at your second purchase What's the lifetime value of all of them You start looking at And understand it So just because Your low cost acquisition You might actually be getting more revenue From a higher cost acquisition A better customer And all too off In the agencies Just looking a certain way Because they can just check the boxes They have a plan They do it And they move forward And I respect it It's fine But if you get If you're going to If I Let's say you do You spend a dollar You make a hundred I'm still going to expect you To make two hundred The next time And that's just to get better Once you put on autopilot Then That's no fun anymore You have to keep Keep being different So the tech side is You know Who's Who's hitting the site What are you doing on there How many pages they go in there What are they looking at Can you hit them with a mailer Because you're getting that information Through the way You know If you sell them If you sell them shoes They're going to Is the purchase going to be hired And you start looking at LTV You start all these things And the suddenly you can You can spend You guys have a social media department Did we have my old company No, no The one you come Oh, those guys Yeah, they had teams But they actually Mixed of in-house And agency Okay So I And I believe that I will always What did you do with With yours for social and marketing My business was different The social you had Was more just to show The clients that you're doing it It wasn't to win clients So we didn't win business From From buying anything That was more big to be So I'll be to be relationship All that I'll say Relationships Yeah Yeah, you go to like You go to this event Let's say in Scottsdale Where you meet 16 clients Yeah And then it takes two years And you get a big well And then you'll just go Offer dinner one night Meet someone three minutes And you land the same well Yeah So you just have to be doing all of that But enough back to the conversation Another business was Zendu It's an online bookkeeping And accounting Technology company So Zendu and you're on their board So yeah And they're killing it So You know The Zendu Rich on Zendu X-E-N-D-O-O If you need bookkeeping Automation for That's like Intuit or something Like that Well, you have Intuit Basically Zendu Built technology in the back end That allows the bookkeeping And accounting teams to be more efficient Yeah So they actually get a lot more work done And therefore They have a lot more time to be available So question You're a non-technical individual You're not a developer You're technical enough You're not like a developer engineer So when you invest in Zendu For example How do you make sure that you're not going to Get screwed over Well, I did have tech in my company I had software And I screwed myself So I Aquahired Aquahired someone Built a department around it And I saw how to How to flush money out so fast So when I've run investors on I think I had like $6 million of technical debt You know, which means If you don't know You have $6 million of manpower Labor to fix what you've created your problem with So I get it So Zendu I was like, all right Let's not reinvent anything You know, if it exists Don't do it So Zendu Does not need to create a new GL Let's You have QuickBooks And Zero Let them do it It's what you can add to it That makes you better So you can, in the end If you're a small business owner You need help You're on your own island You don't know anybody I was So if you can call someone And not be charged Like a gizling dollars Like you normally already call your CPA And they know they can just help you For a small business Yeah You how good is it feel If you get a letter from the IRS You take a picture in your phone And it's solved the next day That's pretty normal You're calling your CPA 86 times and ignore you So So that's the type of stuff Reason why I invested was Was Lilian's amazing I thought the product was Good and I felt it was a way It helped small business people And when you look at a founder What makes Lilian an amazing founder She makes me seem like I'm bored Boring She's so more type A than me She's crazy Yeah She knows everything When I first met her She came into my studio once And EO group asked me if they can speak If I can speak to them Like, alright cool I didn't care So they came and talked And we were sitting at a table And everybody should do Themself And Lily and went into What she was building at Zendu And I said right there I said either she's the smartest person I've ever met And knows her numbers Or she's the biggest bullshit artist But either way I like her So So she's actually newer numbers She now So she can pull shit too But she's very passionate about that And it's I think someone told her It's an amazing It's the most boring business That makes a lot of money Something that They phrase it better She's in Calacanis She said this is the most boring business And you're going to print money Yes She said that about Zendu Yeah Because it's a cal... I didn't know that she's in Calacanis Within this Yeah He's the launch... Launcher Kibader They're actually one of the investors in it Really Yeah I just I just joined as Launcher Kibader Oh, did you really just want it? Yeah He's a good guy Small world Do you look at the same Like when you I'm curious now When you look at founders What do you look for? I mean I want to know that the founder is a marketer Because If you tell me that What's the most important role In the company today I feel it I mean It's specifically But even for me to be You get to be a marketer I can't just get all engineer Focus on the product Because if you're all engineer And you're zero marketing Yeah Marketing that Doesn't just mean that you can Kind of like create A storefront in the most easiest place For free Kind of location location location Back again But today it's marketing Not because you can only create awareness Better faster and cheaper Or Maybe you know the UI You can create a better UI than the competition That would have a better stickiness It's It's also because you'll understand the consumer And you can create a much better product market fit If you're just an engineer And you don't know anything about marketing You're going to be detached From the consumer And you're going to optimize Something that shouldn't exist Yeah You love your product too much Yeah You're blinded by it Right Yes And I think marketing is It's Again, because I'm a marketer I'm originally a photographer So I'm visual Right But I look at Also People used to say I was Really a CPA And a photographer's Skin Because I actually looked at the data Right And a marketer If it should be a good Powerful kind of Operator Like a creative marketing Plus You know the numbers You know your numbers Yeah You just let us see You just just let your CFO Eventually do their job And make more money But it's good if you get both of them Because you can run faster without Going back and looking at this If you can run both of them Yeah Obviously But just move But Joe I think you're like me in this case There are times where you're thinking So far ahead That it's hard to communicate it with people And that was always a problem I had Right So a marketer In your own company Like you walked into room people listen to you Right But did you find often That they weren't necessarily on the same page with you Because you've been thinking about it All night all day And it depends which ones It depends which ones If I found that the younger ones I mean it's just depends If you are a marketer That's good That I decided That's a rock star As soon as they start talking Oh I got it and then Already building up Like this And you just Everyone's wired different Yeah I heard people that make you stronger Like I had a team I had people who could just decipher my nonsense So they can know and understand But I was a little out there I'm definitely a little more focused now But I found That I was always A little far I thought about things Well in advance Sometimes too far in advance And therefore I already had my decision made up But I always sit there Everybody If you can If you disagree with me Please say it And But just make a damn good case And Got my nonsense In the end Yeah exactly I was standing up And you guys Including me came in And we all had different opinions I'd listen to every one of you And what would happen is I'd go with a little bit of each of what you said Or all of one Or none Right And everybody laughed usually The ones who didn't get their stuff They'd think I just Gave it into the one Or everybody And I weighed in on everybody's decisions And if you have to build a gap fast If you screw up You better run an auto Don't you feel that after a while If they see It makes all the right decisions at the end I'm just going to shut up If he said no It's Maybe it doesn't articulate Maybe the way I wanted him to articulate this And But if you know your shit And you're always making the right decisions Eventually you get that respect And they They might go back and say Can you just book it down to me a little bit more And then you tell all that I think The word always is a little scary Because I'd like to say I always made the right decision But I think As a whole The sum of my If you read my book from being at the end It was a good decision But on some pages I made really bad decisions You know And but they were normally short-lived Because I was able to rectify Most of my decisions were usually around stuff I didn't do enough research on Like it was acquiring a tech guy I didn't do enough research That's where I felt Or I put someone in a leadership role That was wrong suited And I made that mistake Where they were amazing on the outside I brought them in And I realized that they weren't amazing And I didn't make a decision fast enough to end it Those were the mistakes I made It was never about the day-to-day Or how to approach a client Or how to do something Or a decision with the business to go It was usually about About a person I guess my idea was More about product decisions Marketing decisions In your case, you would be I guess more technical on that You should still have somebody So I think I get your point But I think that Even if you were right to your point If you're right 99% of the time You should still have a team That has the radical candor To say This is why 100% And then you just check yourself No, and I agree I feel like the ones that You could tell They're not going to work Or the ones that Are yes people Yeah, I don't I can't Because they don't bring you There's no leverage Yeah, I also people who execute Too fast without taking it all in But I also, you know There's a story of life Like there's nobody who Who's some of your whole life's Decisions Unless you're Jeffrey Dom Or something like that You really know for one thing Right? But you're just some of your whole life And it's the same thing with Business every day Right? The decision that you're making Somewhere Is everything that led up to that point Right? So like today I was looking at plans Well, I'm looking at plans But it's an exploration Of us as a team Getting somewhere to the end Right? And I think you can't make A decision here, here, here You got to let it play out And I think when you're making Your right or wrong decisions In that path There could be right or wrong But then In the end Collectively You should make overall a better decision It's like a horse You're not going to win every race You better demo When the The right ones Right? Yes But I think from a product I mean You put a lot of money into it R&D Get it to market And then You don't have the right marketing team You screwed Yeah So We have the greatest product ever Like Like Back to the days Want to photography school The best photographers We're shit marketing Themself And just what they have a great portfolio But they didn't have a good career It's probably the majority of Yeah, I mean that's Like I want to start an incubator here in town And But a real one Like people do it So it's always a bullshit And you call it for what it is You bring people in Of great ideas They just know what to do with it So you put the right team around them Whether they're active Or they're inactive They have to decide Whether they want to stick around or not And you give them the opportunity And you'll get some gems out there And then you get the investment Because we have access to money Now differently than others If you have the right product You can Like you said it's earlier Right I just I If I can make this I can make the product I can know I can market it I can sell it And it's true I can sell anything You know I mean you can sell anything You have different skills At the mine And But it's a matter of Is it a good product first If it's not 100% To not You're just going to get the returns Right Well Early days of video I remember we say video You know Still photography Whatever video What sold more And I'll forget There was a client of ours That only cared about revenue Because all their They didn't care The returns Just got all built back to the manufacturer And I said well They said so we don't care about the returns I said well you should Not like why I go Because if they're returning to you often Your name Of your big giant Internet Computer company Is now getting associated with returns And I said long term They'll stop shopping for me You know I said so if you make videos You'll be able to show them Not to return this printer Because of xy or z And so on And they never cared And they never did it So I don't even think they're in business anymore They were major major I'm not saying it's because of that But in the end That's it That's it In the end you're some of it You're some of all his decisions It's kind of like the American automobile industry Not for many years They've Definitely collected that mindset Right When they were going in From a finance mindset Instead of engineering mindset That had For the Japanese automobile industry And they were All thinking about Maximum profit Quarterly earning And they would Calm down with the product That was inferior eventually To the Japanese And eventually it was known As something that breaks more And so on Yeah And that's the same thing It is It is I mean You just got to do a good job And get things right I mean it's It's that basic Make a good product Make sure it works Make sure it does what you say And market the Fuck out of it And then guess what Then know what your next version Is going to be Wait Wait Wait And then change it And then market the fuck out of that Right Apple Appling iPhone Is a Brilliant thing It's kind of ruined society But I still am addicted to it too But the reality is They know what the next Five versions of that are going to be Right Nothing's monumental Anymore It's how you market it Right And now you just want the best one For me I want the best camera Other people may want other things Right So they know what it works And they can't But But early days And you were making monumental upgrades They know what they were going to For the next couple of years So So I tell everybody Especially marketing Don't vomit at all today Bits and pieces Build it up Learn from it Learn from it Fast Make the changes Do derivatives And then just keep going with it And then And there's this saying I used to say I always just see it on TV Like a member when they used to run Reruns in the summer Right On TVs Yeah And NBC used to say If you haven't seen it It's new to you Right That's good So it's a good way to say Back then You didn't You didn't have DVR So you just You didn't have one YouTube So I always tell everybody Don't change it And if it's working Because it's your It's your You know It's your It's the first touch on there If they haven't seen it It's new to them It's just not new to you It's working Don't change it Change your second third Fourth touch Based upon what's working And I don't know how I just got there But I think it's a matter of just Understanding what the product is And meandering With it You know From the right Intelligent business decisions You feel like 30 years when you're building Your company And you grew You had a couple A moment Where you saw someone Who said something Or you Looked at And he said Oh I never thought about that You modified it And then Yes You so It's funny to ask that There's One specifically I used to go to Starbucks in the morning I was a tea drinker And not a coffee drinker And And I'll never forget The Starbucks right up the street They were closed for like a month or two And we did it And I went in there Manager I got Fronted with everybody there I don't know about you guys I talked to everybody Everywhere Noise the hell out of my kids But So I got friendly with them And they're She's And the manager is so mad And stressed I'm like What's wrong She goes They ruined the store I'm like Honestly, it's really nice She goes No As she says I have to hire an extra person now I'm like Why She goes Because now they They put the oven Or the Where are the Barista things Too far Too many steps away So now I have to hire another employee That was not how a moment for me I went back to my studio that day And redesigned How we actually ran our photo shoots And I was able then I'd reconfigured it all And I increased our productivity by almost 20% Wow That's the McDonald's story too It was fucking good 100% Yeah You should have watched the founder back then You would have been I'll say it But you didn't like me Were the models Things like that I found like the models are models Right So they like to smoke To chat whatever So what I did was I put In the past you would have two sets next to each other And the stations would be on the outside For the hair make up and models styling Well I put them in the middle And I put the things on the sides Once they're in the middle They couldn't get out It wasn't easy for them Just to go walk outside Smoke getting a fight with a boy for anor whatever So they all stayed in the middle To optimize the product And they're thought to optimize the productivity And their footsteps on and off set Got shorter and shorter And I increased productivity to my side So Yeah that's the thing When you're in your process oriented person You don't think about that This is a result A result oriented person Right You're thinking about Optimizing the heck out of everything Doing the time you're doing it I like it I like it It was So when you're saying You had that That aha moment Do you have any other ones That were not tactical Because that was a more practical one There were more Inspirational Aha moment was one of One of them was when I walked away From one of those transactions Early on It was aha moment To realize that I didn't have to be the center of the cog of the wheel That I needed to have people to be there And that enabled me to grow the business better It also going through a deal Maybe want to win more And kick their ass So I did that That was kind of aha moment You know failure You know You have aha moments But they're not an aha moment They're just over long Aha Yeah Actually Yeah So You know I think I never had big wins in one go Did you ever have any big wins in one go I want to say I did that I did have one specific Not so in your business or anything like that But no no no no no No I went Okay so I went on a show And a conference A CEO conference And I met this guy At first he was a little bit cocky But then I learned that he was Really somebody And just had a lot of input of people asking him advices So eventually you block yourself So in it I'm just rubbing drinks And talking about chicks And And then You know It's like He gave me one advice That I said Oh fuck I couldn't wait I just I left I went I implemented that on my website I mean that for my website was something else And at the time it was 90 days Until he see results in a CEO And 90 days later 10 extra fic consistently And till I exit the business Just one fucking nice All me Change everything So That was one in a couple other ones The couple other ones That were The new driven In a way that I was Just thinking about buying products Different Curement was different Any change And another one was about running the business I went over to a company I feel like The best mentors for me Turned out to be my competitors Yeah We're being friends We go over I look at the business I told them Don't you do There's like Oh well Dude, you got to change that out Do this I did talk to one competitor in 20 years I hated them all No, I mean I can tell you till today From my previous previous business I'm still friends with With clients Competitors Well I just didn't feel like it makes any sense To be Just to Being nice one time Yeah Everybody melting Everybody's friends You're a better person than me I think I do that now I would do that now Back then I don't know I just had too much I don't know I'll never forget When after we did the merger I had That's by the way It's a good story And I think you actually Listen to someone Right Yeah, the moment And look what it did Yeah No absolutely Look When someone goes and tell you I don't mind Selling something at cost Sometimes as long as I keep the contract So The way we were doing things We were selling Truckloads From say different stores But there was always one guy That would buy 30 truckloads You know how the fuck is he buying 30 truckloads I'm too small again So I can know he doesn't really work like this There's a whole web of Like me That would buy it from him And you could always sell them So for us You would just make 300 bucks a truck And you would still keep the contract But what happened when you keep the contract You know what are the great trucks To keep in your warehouse Those are the ones That you make so much money on And you just So then eventually that And he would tell you that's what I'm doing You should do the same Check that contract And that was the change That's how you move from 2 million to 5 million to 10 million I think that's great I think it was in your case Because there was enough for everybody You think? Oh no We would At first I guess always There was always enough But yes, nothing But then something Exactly It's not straight answer But what it is is You find out that in the other business We can buy off of each other So we can be frenemies And we can flip deals for each other And we can both make money And that's how it turned out to be at the end With all of us actually There was not one single person that I ended up not And it's great because when you exit the business And you get out And someone asks you Hey, I want to buy some stuff You say, no, let me call my Disguided was a competitor And they would literally out of respect Tell you You know my cost I'll just give you my cost It's for your father in law So I like to make some profit Because I don't want you to go But it was like that It was nice to see that It's interesting to say You haven't been thinking I haven't thought about this in years I would help the people that were smaller The smaller businesses But there were like three or four That were like Not my size But they were close And to me They were I had They were always bidding against me every week So I couldn't But anybody was smaller I was always happy Yeah, but even that one business That you merged with You thought there was competition there But there was none I know it turns out There was Out of the four I thought There was maybe only one That was a competitor So I would have been better off being friends with all of them all at the time So And it is true So I'd tell people Like I said, I do it very different now You know, it's Look, I mean, we all It's also very lonely to be a CEO And it's very lonely when you don't talk to anybody else It's good when you talk to other CEOs that are competitors Because those are the only one you can actually share It's kind of like a support group Right? Like A-A group If I can hit my time machine now, Joe Thank you I will go back and talk more Now you can talk to all the other pickle ball It's funny to say that It's funny to say that because That's a good point I actually At one point I did start calling all my competitors Knowing when I was going to eventually acquire them Or try to But I was doing a year or two before So I was like, I'm going to start becoming friendly with all these people And what I found was most of them were lifestyle people They loved their business, but they would never sell So in fact, one of the guys I texted the other day I was talking to my ears And mild business just lost one of the big clients That I brought in No bullshit, maybe 14 years ago And so I texted him And I said, I tried to buy you You didn't say yes Congratulations, you finally won Yeah But I just know I wasn't there So he responded me Damn But I was having fun with him That's fine But it was good for him He won like, I could probably get $8 million client So But it's I think I think you look back It I don't know about you But Because you're a fresher meat out of the day to day than me I've had longer time, I think And he looked back and I don't know why For some reason I was just like just analyzing To see how I could be different And what I can do or what do you Where do you make mistakes before So you can just be more in tune with yourself And I think that's where I've been doing the last couple of years You feel like the exit was probably the biggest Teachable lessons Any entrepreneur can go through Learning so much How P work Or VC just a whole process It's all massive So you just come out So different from the other side to learn how the corporate world thinks and It is I didn't know I was naive I dealt with corporate clients but I was a corporate So now that I've come out of that Now I can function in that world very easily And now to talk to banks And I talk to investors And I talk to people And I had to build I tell my kids You could convince anybody to do anything If you have a good spreadsheet And a good PowerPoint Right And that's so true You could say anything Anybody to joke Now 90% of all spreadsheets are wrong It's a fact I love it Whether they're wrong by like one cell or everything But I'm not going to do that I'll always be honest And I believe in my numbers I'll believe in everything But you can convince people If you can show them Mark it's marketing Marketing and data You know, Excel It's like the smartest man in the room Might write on a piece of napkin Versus the Matchless smarter person And like 10% of that person But it's going to make a better PowerPoint It's going to get all the attention They'll get the projects done And that's where people fail They just can identify the real alpha The real A players that are in the room Because those are not the ones that focus on On showing a showcasing So it makes a lot of sense to go and teach The children whatever it is Just should better than the other person And you can win But when you're too close to it, it's harder Like I can go to like Zendi Where any of these other people And help them build a deck To raise money or a deck for anything Quick Because I'm not doing it every day So today I sat in my office And we're finalizing the deck For raising the money For the pit wall side And you know, whatever I raise I raise and I'll backstop the rest And so I've done it for a while And I'm close to it So I always tell him very short of deck It needs to be shorter pages Short of pages Me, I'm like Holy Chris So I lay out all the pages on the floor And I like this way too many So I make them stay So you feel like every piece of that business is important When realists I want to tell the full story But it's probably not You don't need it at all No, no, when you look at it One go instead of You look at it digitally on a screen It just goes next Next time How many durations happens From the first day That we've done with Baxi before we sold it I mean, our first virus Was supposed to be a big private equity It wasn't a good one Do you know how many slides were in your deck Are you used? I mean, they were so curious It's kind of hard to remember But it was like I remember this That's what I remember I only look at this Right So how many pages are in this Right So it was It started from the first one That we didn't build it It was our Our P's And I'm sorry I know Our IBs And I don't remember my C-4 looks You're like W-W-W-W-W I was like You needed so many modifications after I guess it's a journey Yeah, it's a journey It definitely is a journey One thing Calacanis does with his launch incubator He works the people to make Like a five-page deck Yeah And then I'll fold deck So I remember when Lillian was doing hers It was like five pages I'm like And she had to get the whole pitch done I'm like 90 seconds And that's where it debate class My coming Because you can talk really fast Yeah, and that's But I think you can If you're an entrepreneur Who can sell your business Or sell what you do And you don't need a deck You're real I could sell you And I could sell you And what I'm doing without a deck Better than I could with a deck So my first version of a deck Usually Has like Three bullet points on everything Because I'm prepared to talk to you I'm just going to put it on screen I'm like Listen, I'm putting that period on the look I'm not even going to I'm probably not even going to talk about what's on the slide Yeah We're just going to talk We're just going to talk So And then next version Has like 8 million words on it And then you find some words that don't That's it It's only it's exactly the same So it's like I can't I can't follow a process I was It was so But you know what When we When one thing you do when you When you bring good investment makers What they'll do is It's all right Now we're going to tackle you with questions We're going to be the other side Because they prep you You sit down somewhere in New York At the Morgan Stanley Bill 50th floor Something like that They're sitting down There's all the food you want They're prepping you for questions And they challenge you with questions And they said Oh, you can say that What? No, that's a big known I always think that It doesn't matter how good you are as an entrepreneur There's just some things you got to go through that process And you You got to give it the respect Because you think You're like I know it all Like I I'll sell anything right now If it's about my business I am the business Right No here You need to hear Why They said Well, if we ask you about Tell me about your time What is time Total addressable market Oh, okay I need to know that It's so funny It's just first time I said Tell me That was tense Exactly You're so focused on your terms I don't need to know What is that That's everyone You better know And you better You need Everyone with my camera The total addressable market This is the potential You better do that Homework with him And they got to be good They got You can't just pick any investment macro If you begin If you have to Kind of like screen them We did The first few We did when you were Practice He said We're going These guys are never going to invest This is good practice for you And then the ones that matter I'll never forget I broke down crying after one of them Because my investment banker Was kicking me so hard Really He said You keep doing this You keep doing that And then the other guys And the other Because You know Just They hit a spot With now I don't remember I might have been too truthful Because I'll tell you what I didn't care I'll tell you what I think You know And I said Oh Like They're talking about the sexual harassment Point No No Trust me man My whole My whole world was about We had models in that place every day I was the nicest guy And I promise you So But it's It's Tam was funny Because I remember There was time when they first Came in And they said Listen, we need to get a good CEO They need to be six Same a black belt, right? And I'm like I had no idea what that was Well, what is this by the way? This is project Project management Like It's like It's Yeah It's a certification And project management Okay It's I've never done it myself Truth be told Yeah I'm like They want a guy Who did karate Yeah, yeah Right, that's what he sound I'm like I would have done karate more I don't know Yeah, that's what I really believed in I kept saying we used a six-setting black But I'm like Let's so big I get that I get it when you're playing In a karate It's like It's a contagion It's strong Is that like Do you hack? Like I know people are like Artists and scientists You have to be a six-setting black belt And like Is it confused Is it jiu-jitsu That's such a weird thing to ask About CEO though They wanted it because they felt That the business needed more process Because it created worlds So you can So But the funny So in the end I have it in my office I think at home still So my guys in the office Made me a picture of Bruce Lee And it was kicking in And he's And in the top It's a six-setting black belt dummy Or something Yeah It was funny It was good That's so funny But you don't know these terms Until you live I had no I had to learn all the different terms I interviewed this guy recently For Zendu And he's hired and works Works there now He's a great guy He's in sales side Sales marketing And he used way too many acronyms And I'm like I know I said That's annoying as hell Anything you just said I said But he's from call center world And it's just acronym after acronym I get it But I said But someone from me I said I'm not classically trained And all the things you're talking about But I know how to run A marketing strategy around it Just please use real words You know I felt like I don't you feel like A lot of the bankers When you go through process with them And they start using all the terms Maybe we do the one But with someone else In your team that Is not the CEO Founder that's about to cash out big And so on They might look at them as a list then And kind of like look down at them Oh, I can't tell you I built the business And I felt more fear in all these rooms Than anybody else always And that's I don't accept Like shame on me You know, I be honest with you You know, I mean, these You know, you think about is They're in private equity I respect them But they don't They don't have to build businesses It was a private equity group Years ago Came to my studio And they said Listen, you know, we're Creating a brand I'm like, well, you don't usually buy them They're like, well, we're creating it I'm like, all right, I'm like, well, you buy it Because we're really good at buying them And really good at ruining them So it's like, that's funny It's a good way to sell the way Yeah, that's a good job Maybe you shouldn't be a private equity then But these are just a job of this thing So, um, but you know It's It's Whatever It really comes down to the people that you I remember when I brought the first partner for For BoxyChung A company called ScarPriely And let me tell you every credit I can give those people That made me a better CEO Um And they're They're only them actually looking at us There was just one more phone call at first I didn't think anyone's going to buy A piece of this business It was just sitting out of the garage A side-business tool My main business was just weird for me That we even got an offer Because my My iBs told them If it's less than 20, don't even bother The fuck is going to put It's when it would And we got an offer, right And uh And I remember when I met them I said, I really like those guys Yeah, it told me a little Usually the ones you like are not going to buy They're going to be the one to invest And even if they are investing They're only nice in the beginning And I was like, later, it's just Expert So they ended up investing And till today were great friends And it was just us It was awesome It was awesome But the thing is Every company they invested in I'm just trying to put back To the PE side Because people might listen to us And think, oh, they're all horrible No Every company Most of their investments Did amazing They're kind of like They're to support you But yeah, they're just not touching Your business much And it was So it really depends It's kind of like, okay, how much are you going to be involved Obviously if they go And they put a different CEO In a business And everything else then Well That's that thing Actually, I can say I actually feel bad For the guys who invested I really like They actually killed at the PE firm That invested us They've killed it in all their businesses And when I say kill it Like 20, 30, 40 times their money On someone else So And they're brilliant They just happen to choose Very difficult business Mine, that was very different Than what they're used to And if anything is one of the groups we talked to We didn't go with They were a fundless PE firm So they just call everybody and get money And the gentleman they brought To as they're like the expert Is that guy I was mentioning earlier That he's the marketing tech guy So it's been what However many years He and I are like great friends So And But at the time It was what it was But in the end I respect the private equity guys They need the world functions Because of them And I respect their knowledge And all that stuff And I always was frank With them when I wasn't too emotional Because I am emotional I'm not going to lie So And I said listen You know You just You can't communicate that way With me It just doesn't work You know I mean There has to be a certain way Of talking to each other Where there's a respect Even if I'm in order You I'm still going to be generally kind If you're in order I mean kind of be there But if you're an idiot Or you do something You don't listen to me I'm just going to pound you But I was But So you know Now we're having our kumbaya here With insane apologizing But There is a private equity there You just have to be prepared And understand How to work with them And most entrepreneurs don't know So but also they have to be prepared To understand How to work with Businesses that they acquire That are outside their thesis I agree with you And I think that's That's the key thing And I think I had such a weird business Yeah How many people I mean How many photo companies Photo and creative And content companies We're doing Combined 100 million dollars a year You know more than that So nobody knows what that is You know It's funny You had Amazon For content creation It Amazon And us We were number two Wow Amazon I'm actually a little bit bigger Yeah We were the number two content Creation volume in the world And And but then you had a tons of These people are doing a million Two million a year You know they're everywhere And so give them credit They're happy with that You know So It's But if you're a private equity Nobody's investing that space Before you're like You know You get that flag You're going over the hill You don't know what's on the other side Of the hill to put the flag down What are you going to do Is there Is somebody going to get out and kill you So And it's If the tough business My allocation is a tough business Because you look at different companies Especially in a very dynamic world Today Where you look at Say beauty companies And I I'm just pitting with another P told me at the time When they're looking at boxy They said look At the time you would look at Make up run And you would say Like if you're at 50 million now There is already a path If you go to more doors Where you're going to be at 500 million In the next It all died It all Shuttered Because now you have so many brands You don't know if You come in at 15 That's where it sticks And then goes down You have no clue So you don't know That's why it is the price We need to go in Yeah That's where that sense You where Tam comes on the point That's where it comes in the price Exactly And it's I gotta tell you We were And now that I look back We were scraping the top of it Through the total results of markets Far larger But you But our business Potentially Had to be able to scale more But you couldn't put too much Corporate structure into it Because then you couldn't hit the price points That you needed to So our Tam was maximizing Because we were Burdening Do you feel that your business If you were to stay in that cell In order for you to Your company name was What was it? The first One before we did the merger Was one create Eventually we did the merger It was called creative drive And now it's not even called that It was acquired by Accenture So let's just say One create So you said Well One create Say you didn't do the merger Because There was no cell So you did merge And all that And you say Well In order for that company To go from 40-50 million a year It can be one create And it should be one create 2.0 And I have to get Uncomfortable Did you have that moment In your company we say I'm just not going to go to 100 million Like I got from 0 to 40 But from 0 to 40 to 100 I need to change something I did that from 20 to 40 Okay So I step back Is if we got to do it When 20 to 40 and went fast But that was my number Because I knew what the multiples Would be around that time And I knew I can sell What my EBITDA would be And whatever else So that was my goal Because I knew that was my Fee money at that point I was like That's the number I needed I know I could live a certain lifestyle And then I know I'd roll half And I know the upside would be better So I had that goal And at that point I was thinking about what was right For my family Not about Yeah Creed No But if you say You couldn't sell the business Sorry How could you Talk to your parents Okay So So then let's just say Something happened You're like Okay the whole deal falls apart Nobody wants to buy you Nobody's knocking the door You're staying in this business You're for the long run Do you feel like In order for you to get to 100 million by yourself For 200 million by yourself Was there like a plan To say okay This is the problem in the market I'm not solving it with this one I have to get really uncomfortable And lots of Scraping the tab What's this I think I could have done it But I Would have needed to take A couple of months off To clear my head But It makes sense Just a whole idea of building your business up to sell And then Even after you sell Or bring investors in You should leave for a month Because your mind can't think anymore That's right For the business You're thinking about All right This is a good decision for the business But how is it going to be for my investors Because you're in the middle of a deal You can't think right anymore So I think anybody If you ever do it Put in your deal You're taking a couple weeks off afterwards Because investors want to see you Month one Perform Really You should go home You know It's the color of the new army End of Siri Mentality So if you're doing like a tough Siri leadership Whatever it is You have the last week Everybody knows it's the end You can like have a Fuck you mentality already And like the Your instructors and all It's just It's just so they have to kind of like Punish anyone extra because In a week you're leaving this particular base You're going back to your unit And because it's over You've done right So it's the same thing When you're about to cash out Being your mind You have to fight with yourself Right You have to fight with yourself To still do what's right for the business Because if that deal doesn't go through You don't want to make up to more with your Challenge business I think I had a lot of High stress clients And not just the brands But people work for them And I think because I took it personal Everything personal It was really hard on me So I think Time off would have done And then I could have stepped back And say What I learned from this Right And put the right CFO in Get the right You know, risk shake up There was one or two people in the management team Need to be changed They shouldn't have been let go They just position should have changed a little bit And then you say How are you going to scale moving forward Right And I think And then my technical depth So I think The technology was something I didn't know enough about at the time Then I was just destroying me So mentally So I think I could have gotten there Yeah, I definitely could have You know Do you feel like You mentioned before Something you said You said that your Your C Was it that your CFO was managing All your finance at the end But you still looked into the finance Before I got investors on I had it I brought a CFO in More just a prep us for sale So I really had a controller Okay So in the end I knew I just I knew numbers right So I knew If you did a job Where it's going to net out And but I also knew You know you also have to look at your Overall operating costs And this is what happens Less so in big corporate world I know if I start compound and work In the same office Your costs go down Because you start maximizing You know Your staff You know Building someone out of 100% Now you might build about 120% So you start realizing That you can start doing those things So you know That's happening So you know When you can give and take And uh And I think that I was able to make those decisions Because I didn't have A board to To You know you can do whatever you want You can do whatever I want Knowing in the end Do you want to just grow Yeah So I have a question about The past business That you did build For some sort of exit or acquisition event Versus what you're doing now With the pickleball Complex community Is there a different mentality When you're going in Yeah Because your building is this lifestyle now Well Eventually I think any business You can always sell Right So but you shouldn't go into the business Saying you're going to sell it I mean I think I mean some people Are that way That's not me If you do the right thing The profit comes In this case I'm building it to run I want to work as hard as I could For the next year or so Two years Make sure to do what it needs to be doing Doing and then I still want to enjoy the world I don't want to be I don't want to I may open another location If the opportunity comes But I'm not looking open 20 And I might get into the business A little bit I've already looked at investing On the paddle side And other areas in the business Because I think there's opportunities But I'm looking at differently now I'm also looking at it from a cash flow perspective I miss having checks coming in So if this business It's going to perform The way it should Check Check should come in I'm going to have cash flow And then not only that Have a lifestyle A place where I go to the office every day You see people I like I miss people I miss working with people I miss the camaraderie I miss what you When you build a business What it becomes Business is a living breathing entity And if you keep feeding it Good food You keep feeding it Good work You keep respected people That breathing entity Grows at prosperous You know And I see from what we're building right now Success is many levels Success is Making sure people who come there Enjoy themselves Making sure they're respected Making sure the food is good Making sure the beverage is good Making sure the experience Making sure you're maximizing Revenue and profit But not hurting experience You know And then doing all those things And if you do that right Then your profit comes But it's not about being greed You know And otherwise If you're building a business That you're not worried about it Then you shouldn't be building that business Right And so I The numbers You build a good spreadsheet Right So my partner and I Rich Built a great spreadsheet It's true It works We It's been tested We It's based on data So we know it's going to work After that Don't fuck it up You know Yeah If the product Makes sense You can Modify the product What you get into it You're like okay We have a way too many Pickable Quartz Modify those few To tennis Whatever it is But the rest You can go and change 20 things what you see now It's not But as long as you focus on the results You're good I like this is this is this is definitely Something that everyone that I know That exit and I I keep bringing it up Over here that I had my exit And two other friends of mine Had their exit within the month After me each one of them And bigger than mines And all of us All of us run The same scenario Same scenario You just I don't want to touch that money And I don't have any more coming In the way it was And yeah One of them makes 300,000 A year's salary That wasn't our shows like something like that So his lifestyle is way over that Just his house The taxes on his house Is going to be more But something and That's right We got the pair tax bill That's what I paid mine I put it on the credit card I did my last day The last day Put it on credit card You paid a 2% fee Yeah I did I was just too busy And I was just That's just yeah, chief I am There's no way I'm ever doing that I don't care how many miles I don't know how much you Because you build your house Right So how do they I got I'm way lotier than you Because I built the house My tax Still foreshaying that Yeah, tell me that So I can feel great Well, I'll look yours up You just go to bcpa.net I'll figure out what your tax is Yeah, it was It was by one time I had an employee I walked into the office And they had the tax appraiser Sight up And it was my house That this house My old old house And then they had my house up on their screen And they double clicked it And I'm like, let me see what you got And they go, you can just ask me Yeah That's so fun Now I can Now the boots go by So they know They're always telling fun part of the tour Yeah, but the information is always wrong Oh my god They've never got They got it right for a week But it was boring How do you lower your taxes, by the way? You don't You can You homesteaded this, right? Yeah That's all you can do Because you get all those letters from people saying That they can lower That's all bullshit It's all bullshit Yeah, you can ask them They're just going to take a percentage of whatever they They lower you That's, I did that I tried, I got nothing That one's And that was told I was lucky I have what I have So Because if you build your own house You're not really You can get in It just works out So if I sold my house now The tax bill, whoever buy would be like 700 grand a year Yeah But if you're buying that house You can afford the tax bill So I wouldn't buy the house now that now I can't afford it Yeah, that's a funny situation Well listen, I mean This is great you came over Definitely amazing I mean Skat has ADD as you know This you talk He's looking at the ceiling We're going to talk about that I was only insulted once Good Thanks I tried to keep I'm going to go live That's all I'm going to remember tonight Under five It's a win Yeah Going tonight I can't believe He asked me a question Just started drinking water Yeah But he's a nice No, I was drinking tequila I think he's drinking donhulio I don't know Well, I think I think Joe got me drunk on liquorish before we came up here So I have a little bit of a sugar high I'm thinking the entire time I mean, while you're talking to me I'm thinking about the sugar that In my fridge I'm done on that This is This is You're both kind of I'll give it so well That's I'm done on that Now I'm going to go home and start my next business But I honestly I can tell you I'm doing this thing now But I have one more big business in me I just don't know what it is yet That's all really It's time I'll figure it out But right now, I'm happy just to do I mean, I just want to go to work again I just want to see people I want to do stuff Money I'm not doing it Your investors Your investors make you money If you put your money with the right people And they have good months of balance in the end They do their job And you have to have one you trust No matter I dick around Putting money in the stock market ever else I never know what to sell I might go up 400% I was genius But I never sell And actually, no, down 20 So did you pull your money out? No, I left it I looked at it as With my investors With my the bank I'm like They have the plan So they sell a bunch You know, they know what they're doing And let them do it But I didn't need the money for our next couple of years So if you come down You come back up But at the time I sell it I'd be paying tax It's The data makes sense for me To not do it But um But I know people like you said you pulled out So or a lot of it Yeah So And I don't disagree You know, I mean, everyone is You have to do what's right for you All right And the end you do what's right for you For me I just I don't need it I know I have enough in the account for the year or so What was the percent I mean mine was high percentage in the market And that's why I felt Well, it's funny It's just before tanked I started selling off bonds Because I felt It was starting going down Yeah, that's good So I started selling bonds Yeah Putting in the market So I took a big loss fast on that I just took the loss So you know I could tax right off You throw in a Index fund and you throw it back in But um So in the end It's I don't Honestly, I haven't opened the app If I go to my phone right now The app probably has to reinstall I stop looking So wow I have my call I trust them You know, that's one One business I was thinking at the time Like say you're buying Bitcoin Or anything else Like It's very hard not to look And not to sell Not to do anything Right And it's okay Can I go And can you sell a service to someone And say look We're going to buy you Anything Like Securities Whatever it is Right You can't look at this You can't touch anything For 20 years And for that service This is demo You can't look at this Just ignore it Was even there You can do that with some crypto You can stake assets For a period of time Or blocked in But I think it's a year at a time A year at a time I don't think it's more than that I'm not a penny I'm a genius But I don't trust anybody enough for that Crypto How can you not just scoop For companies Why would you not Listen For companies Before tanked Fear missing Now my tax bill was less Yeah So I took whatever was left And a phone went through it in And I was up 50% a week And I let it ride And now I'm down 50% Don't blame yourself I mean I put so small amount But I'm down Yeah Once I break even on it I'm gone It's I There's a need for it It's not my world And I found I'm better off building businesses And letting the financial guys Make me my money I'm getting out of that And I mean I know so many people Like What do you do for living I'm in a crypto business I'm like Yeah What are you doing You know what I mean That's like What are you doing You're buying crypto What are you How are exactly That a business And now most of them are working again The jobs But Listen If you could It's all about Everybody's a genius to get in But no one's a genius to get out Yeah That's right That's not my job Well But that was awesome Thank you Thank you Thank you for all Thank you You're coming over You have a long way home I do We're going to go And get some Airport Or something Not to get hurt It's very difficult