Marketing Harry, CEO of Brave Social Media | Growing Instagram From 0-125k Followers In One Year

All right, thanks again for joining me. Today, I'm very excited to be sitting down with Robren, Bangkok, better known as marketing Harry. He is a social media marketer with a unique and bold approach, leveraging your social media to build an audience, to build a fan based to build a tribe. I'm going to let Harry speak about why he's chosen his name, but a little bit of background, he has built out an enormous Instagram following. He runs a marketing agency, and it's not your typical Instagram following. He focuses on the B2B business to business content niche, which is extremely hard to create effective content that's engaging on an image first platform like Instagram. He's gone from, and he'll probably correct my numbers, but 0 to over 100,000 followers on Instagram starting about 10 months ago, which is extremely impressive considering how mature Instagram is as a platform and how hard it is and difficult it is for people to grow on. So I'm going to let Harry speak about, first of all, his background, his career moving into working and building his own agency. I'm going to let him speak about his Instagram success, his formula for success, how he combines different elements of psychology, creative to really create something that is sort of leading the way in terms of B2B Instagram marketing, and not just Instagram marketing, just B2B marketing in general. So Harry, thanks for joining me. I really appreciate you taking the time and sort of dissecting your career and your strategy. Thank you so much. It is truly a pleasure speaking to like, mind and think videos about topics which I am passionate about. And on the topic of passions, my biggest passion in life is being brave enough to stand out from the competition, and this has actually been the key to my Instagram growth as well. Yes, in the beginning, you go through a process of iterations, failures, finding what your brand stands for, but as soon as you get over that period, then it is incredibly important to be brave enough, to get off your high horse and get off any muscle that you might be wearing, and show you yourself. People like calling this authentic, I like calling it being brave. And this a huge reason for why I chose my name is actually my real name, which literally translated symbol, Geron means bravery. Crabren means bravery. And I have utilized this personal capability of mine, and amplified in every single element of my social media presence. Such points such as my visual identity, the red colors are used, the textures that they use, the imagery that they use, which is quite provocative, and my tone of voice as well. So I have been optimizing everything from the beginning in order to cater to my bigger vision. And the world's portion of my following which right now is called brave ones has found this valuable, they have resonated with my point of view. And based on that, I have been able to grow exponentially. You actually completely nailed my numbers. I grew from zero to 100,000 followers in less than 10 months. And keeping mind this is keeping an engagement rate, which is well above average, both in terms of likes and overall metrics, such as save scenarios. Okay, so this is you touched on a lot of stuff. And this is like a marketer's dream because you spoke on, you spoke on building a tribe, a community you spoke on authenticity, you spoke on having that vision and everything you're doing basically built from the, you said Bulgarian translation of your name is driving everything down to the tone and your messaging to the colors and assuming even like the font styles like it's all right. You have this, you have this image in mind. This is impressive, very, very impressive. I didn't know that it went this deep, but I'm glad it does because we're going to get into it in a second. So before we go into that, because that's a lot to unpack. Okay, your career right now, you have your agency. What's what's the name of your agency? Brave Mark think. Brave machine. But there is overlapping can paint out this well. Okay, so what did you do before your agency that led you to where you are now? Yeah. Great question. So my backstory is that ever since I was a young child, I grew up in a family of entrepreneurs. We had all kinds of businesses, most of them offline because it was over 15 years ago. And what I saw was that my parents just like me, they got bored from a certain business quite quickly. So they built a certain business in the building phase. It was offline games. It was quite exciting for them, but as soon as it started scaling, they was interested and they started pursuing something caps. And because this is something that I saw going up, I turned out the same way. From the age of 10 years old, I began hustling in different entrepreneurial ventures. I started from then developing. This was my first passion. I created a couple of websites and then I got bored. I began working in different mediums, such as marketing, learning about branding, and keep in mind I was 11 at that time. I created mock-up projects and every single thing that got my attention, including key commerce and including some more traditional business routes, just wasted for me. And then something clicked. I was at the start-up events in which you had 72 hours to create the start-up on zero. And in that short period of time, as most start-up owners know, you have to fill out as many roles as possible. So I went from first IJ generation, building the product to marketing and visualizing the product. And I fell in love with marketing because I had the ability to touch points with a whole wide range of different businesses. So, for example, right now I can help personal brands care on social media. I can also help B2B brands trying to, for example, sell their software. And this diversification of my clients enables me to stay in worse and find even new ways to dominate the social media flavor. Because I am constantly finding new ways, new clients, new industries, in which I can thrive. So this has been my journey. At 17, I formed my agency. At 19, I began working with UNICEF, FEME and Cambridge Coaching. And right now, I actually turned 21 tomorrow. That's why we had to rescue young. I didn't realize you were so young, man. That's incredible. So this way, you're like entrepreneur, like basically since you were like 10 years old, you've never, you never did that route where you went into a company and then you pivoted or you just full in at 17, you started an agency. Yeah, actually before that, I started working with us. I began a startup actually with my friends that failed miserably as most startups failed. I worked for a short period of time at an awesome intern. Again, I then went to a partner position in that digital marketing agency, but I got bored. I wanted to create something meaningful for myself. And that's why not 17, I began my social media agency career. I created my first agency. Of course, it felt miserably at first. I was just able to scrape a few clients locally at the time. And currently, I'm working with experts from almost every few imaginable in almost every single continent in the world. Six out of seven. Unfortunately, right now, you can't sell anything to penguins in Antarctica. So that is the only continent that I'm not on. When penguins get Instagram, then I'm sure you'll be right there because you're obviously, you're doing something right. But you've been doing this. So starting at 17, you've been doing this now. So you've been doing this in 17. So it was at eight, nine, so like five years now, give or take. And you know, it's obviously difficult to start. But now I see your progress and the strategy that you've built out for yourself to be exponentially better than I would say like 95, 99 percent of agencies, like there's not a lot of agencies that really walk the walk. There's not a lot of agency, social media agencies that can build out their own audience than their own community. They generally just fall into this really low bar, like the bar, the bar, the bar, the bar, the bar, the entry for B2B social content is just so low. And they sort of just fill that gap and providing like a maybe a slightly different perspective on B2B social content. B2B content in general is just I find horrible for most people, for most big brands. They don't do it well, right? They're sort of like this, this boring, they're posting links. They have this monotone voice. Yes, they have a they have a really recognizable brand, but they're not doing anything innovative. They're not stirring emotion. I think people are afraid to do too much outside of what is considered to be a B2B norm in in social media. So you've done this for yourself, sort of self-taught, right? In theory. Exactly. Yeah. How did you learn? How did you learn how to do better than agencies that have CEOs that have been doing it for 20, 30 years? How did you learn how to do this so well? Yeah. So I actually have a couple of different backgrounds. Of course, I talked about my childhood, my answer for neuro parents, which contributed a huge margin to who I am, as a person right now, but I actually have a bachelor degree in computer science as well, which I took for two years instead of four, and I am quite intrigued by human psychology. So I've been utilizing every single source of my background as an inspiration and combining it into something which stands out for me, which is data plus human psychology and future behavior into something which enables you to basically take something which, as you mentioned, is quite boring. Understand the roots of it and based on that, translate it in a language which stands out from the competition. So for me, the biggest thing has been because I am so young and because no one has any expectations of me, it is quite easy for me to think outside of the box. And at the same time, I do believe that most businesses get everything wrong when they are in the business and the building stages, the initial stages of their business. Most businesses succeed because the owners are so passionate. And this is something which I have seen in my childhood. The businesses of my parents succeeded because people and clients were able to form personal connections with my parents. And most businesses nowadays have really enthusiastic founders. So for example, Facebook is an example of that. Mark Zuckerberg had a passion about what he was doing. And with time, he was able to scale that passion in a business which made sense in terms of economics. But you have to be able to find first a founder which is passionate about what he is doing. And then if you are able to translate his language and place that at the front of your brand, then you are going to be succeeding. And right now, most brands are really scared of that. On the couple of brands, I just, let's say, Amazon, Tesla and Facebook are utilizing this principle. Steve Jobs was one of the iconic founders as well with April. But since his passing April has lost its touch in that regard. So I do believe that most businesses have everything backwards. They start with the tea to their success, which is their founder, the passion of the founder, the human communication, which most people are seeking the emotion as you mentioned. And then they add different business elements, suffocating that human emotion, which people are a lot more likely to connect with. While the winning formula is actually reverse, you start with something which is a business foundation. So making sure you have, for example, the right business model, making sure that your idea is scalable. And then you add the personal touch of the founder or of the whole company culture, which you can amplify and people can connect with. And I do believe that this is the winning formula on social media because at the end of the day, social media is all about being social. And I think that obviously you're doing that well on Instagram. And I'm going to ask a question about Instagram in a second. But everything you mentioned makes sense in theory. And you have seen some businesses, like I mentioned, not many. And I think you'll agree with me. Not many are doing it right. But some businesses do it well. Like if you look at, for example, Morning Brew on Twitter, or even fast on Twitter, they're killing it right now. AH refs is doing very well on YouTube. They provide like a lot of educational content. I was looking at even like blogs, like certain blogs, like HubSpot, HubSpot, Twitter blog, like Mark Rebares putting out all this educational content. So you do see some examples of people that are living what you've said in their content on different social platforms. But not many on Instagram. Instagram seems to be the one thing that nobody could really get right and be to be. So why did you go into it? Why didn't you just try and replicate on another platform and just kill it on Twitter or YouTube? Yeah. And this has to do again with my ability to merge different fields. So I have a passion of designing. That is why I went into front end development in the beginning of my career. And I also have a passion for teaching. And Instagram made the most sense in terms of the content format. So I am utilizing ourselves, which are basically 10 single images, combined into a whole whole whole story. And I am making sure that they are appealing to the type of user, which is on Instagram, which in most cases is seeking something visually appealing as far. So Instagram made sure that I made sure with Instagram that I'm combining my passions, visual and data driven approaches. And at the same time, it would be a huge mistake not to mention that I also noticed the trend with those car shows. Chris Doe and Misco, so these are creators, which started the car so trend, Michael Janta as well. So I noticed the exponential growth and results that they are seeking. And I was one of the first to actually implement this successfully again. So I am probably wave two or even wave three of this car so trend on Instagram, which is working. Fabulous. Yeah, I think you've nailed it. There are some big names that have definitely set the bar for Instagram content. I would include you as one of those. You're very humble saying you're wave three, but you're right. There are some other large names that are doing it quite well. But you're also doing it before we started recording. You said you're also doing it on LinkedIn. So it's not just Instagram. You're finding a way to visually represent business content. So visually representing business content is great. And in a carousel format, like you mentioned, it's obviously working well. But there's other components that you mentioned when you were first starting to talk about bravery, your brand, your vision. So what are the ingredients? So it's not just putting images because I see a lot of carousels now that actually do quite well. And Chris is definitely doing the way. So definitely when he puts something out, people like, and if people are listening at the Chris Doe is one of the people that Harry just referred to, he sort of started putting these out on Instagram. So he has some momentum. When he puts something on his page, it's designed well, but he already has a great audience. There's a lot of people now that are trying to build out audiences with carousels. Even myself included, I try and put together my own. They don't have the same reaches as you. I haven't built out my audience with carousels. So I'm still trying to figure out what works best for me. But for you, you sort of figured out this formula or these ingredients that work that have brought you from zero to 100k, I'm sure a lot of other people started 10 months ago as well and don't have 100,000 followers. So what are those ingredients that you've figured out? Yeah. So one of the main things which I knew from the beginning is key on standing out on any social media platform and actually dominating is finding your unique positioning. And something which obviously I began since the beginning was trying to find ways to feel a gap in my marketplace. So I was studying competition and at the same time I was studying user behavior on Instagram. How I was doing it, quite simply going on hashtags, going on my competitor's pages. For example, Chris though, studying what their audience is commenting and what they are not seeing. I just want to take a moment and thank the sponsor of our show Vidyard. As a sales and marketing executive, I have used Vidyard and I was super happy when they reached out. What is Vidyard? Vidyard is the easiest, most powerful video solution that allows you to create videos, host them ad-free, share them with others and track the performance. You could be recording videos for sales or marketing campaigns. 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Hit that link, Vidyard.com, backslash, Scott, and try it out. Most frequently. And then based on that, I was able to draw certain trends and certain structures, which I can then re-applicate in my content. And because I was doing this for five 10 creators and their audiences simultaneously, I was able to draw inspiration from a lot of different sources and then combine it into something which is unique in its own. So this is probably the second method which you can utilize to stand out on any social media platform. Identify five to 10 influencers, which are already doing well, find their trendy posts, see what their audiences is not think about those posts, and start complicating it in your content strategy. And I would say that method one is what we discussed in the beginning. Being mindful enough to notice what is either your biggest strength or biggest weakness for me, one of my biggest strengths has been my mentality of being brave, which comes from my name, and then amplifying it. So I use both method one and method two to stand out from the competition, which has been one of the fundamental lessons for me on social media. Because unless you find a way to stand out, you're going to blend in and become a noise. And when you stand out, one thing that you mentioned, again, previous to this, was not just standing out, but over teaching or out teaching rather, the competition. So how do you out teach the competition when you can only put so much content into a post or a carousel? How do you choose what's relevant and what's not? So I created several different mental models for myself, which I follow with every single piece of content, not only a carousel, but for example, my email newsletters or my LinkedIn posts, articles, my YouTube videos, every single piece of content which I put across my different mediums is optimized for these mental models. One of these mental models is making sure that at the end of this content piece, people have something applicable to try out. And the light bulb moment for me was when one of my comments, and that's why I absolutely preach connection with your community. Because most of the time, people have the vision which you don't have because they are looking for a different angle. And one of my comments actually mentioned that I want to try this right now. So if your content is driving people to want to try something immediately, so it's that practical, it's that implementable, then you have a right type of content. That is how you out teach your competition. It doesn't have to be a step-by-step process, like for example, if you notice in our conversation, previously I gave a step-by-step process on how to study your competition. So this is one form of practicality, but you can also change the mindset of your users. So you can do this with something which is more of an inspirational, not as educational piece of content. So it's different ways, but the one thing they have in common is that you need to leave your audience with something simple and tangible that they can fall in that way. No one else can take away the value you just gave because people are already starting to implement what you're saying. When they see that it works, they're being given more positive feelings about you. I like that. I've just I like the way that you phrased out teach and I wanted to understand what that meant, and that makes a lot of sense. So something you can immediately take away. And the other point that I wanted to touch on, we have sort of touched on this a little bit, but the psychology of the post that you put out, the content you put out. So when you say you incorporate human psychology into your content, what does that mean? Yeah, exactly. So out teaching your competitors is actually one psychological factor, just refreshed. It is the Ritiprocity factor. So the more you give, the more you will receive. I scratch your back, you scratch my back. So by out teaching your competitors and giving the most value in the marketplace and again, value is subjective based on your audience. But by giving the most value in your marketplace, you're building the most positive feelings towards your brand as well. And this is the Ritiprocity principle. Right now I'm giving so much value. The second I, for example, want to promote something, like my newsletter, free ebook, my website, my YouTube videos, this podcast, people are going to be jumping on it because they already have in mind what kind of, some kind of expectations that I built through Ritiprocity with them. So this is just one of the many principles in psychology that I am mutualizing daily. There are also different biases. For example, what's a version bias, which you can take advantage of by placing, let's say, highlights in your Instagram profile and optimizing those highlights for watch time, because when someone checks your profile, they check your bio, they check your content, but they also check your highlights. And the more you time you make people spend on your profile, the less likely they are to leave you without following you, because they already, they say them themselves, okay, I spend five minutes already on this profile. It must be good. I don't want to waste those five minutes. So I'm going to follow him. So this is another example. I am also utilizing in my visual identity a lot of elements, which are capturing attention, stopping the scroll of the users, which are all connected to human psychology. And my favorite field in psychology is actually evolutionary psychology. So for anyone interested in that, I definitely recommend a book code seeking wisdom from Darwin to Munger. So from Charles Darwin to Charlie's Munger. Yeah, yeah, Charles Munger. Yeah. That's very interesting. And I think that you sort of dissected all the component. Now there's a lot for somebody listening who has never really gone into any sort of meaning or really given any thought to a meaningful Instagram strategy. He's like, oh my goodness, like the highlights, the copy, the call to action profile picture, the vision and the brand and the color and the psychology and the education and all my posts. That's a lot for somebody. So obviously, you know, well, besides hiring an agency like yours, that's a little plug. But what would be the things that somebody could do today, if you look at a very average B2B or business Instagram profile, they could immediately point them in the right direction. Yeah. So everything on Instagram growth comes down to two main elements, traffic and conversions, just like in the website. So you drive traffic to your profile. That's called profile visits. And you can quickly see your amount of profile visits you get in your insight right now at 100,000 hours. I get anywhere between 15,000 profile visits to 20,000 profile visits per week. And then conversions, meaning what amount of these profile visits, which aren't following you yet, turn into followers. And the first thing you need to do is identify if you have a traffic problem, meaning you don't get enough profile visits to your profile or you have a conversion problem, meaning that you don't convert enough profile visits into followers. So if you want to grow more, then you need to go back to this simple formula traffic and conversions. Afterwards, for example, my conversion rate is above 35 to 50%. So let's say 10,000 profile visits, I get around 5,000 net followers. So that's around 50% conversion rate. And the power of conversion rates is visualized quite easily. Imagine that you have 1,000 profile visits per week, which is quite average. From those 1,000 profile visits, would you prefer 5,500 followers or would you prefer 100 followers? And that's per week. When you multiply this by 52 weeks, so the weeks in one year, you see them big difference in the numbers that you're going to be getting. That's a smart way of looking at it. So your number is first. You can't do anything with knowing your numbers. And then after you reach a conclusion, if you have a traffic problem or a conversion problem, then it's quite easy. You need to either generate more traffic or find a way to optimize for conversions. Generating more traffic might mean improving your content. It might mean spending more time being social and social media. It might mean optimizing your post for export page, hashtag pages. It might mean even optimizing them for the new search feature, which is coming to Instagram or creating different types of content, which are trendy right now, like ourselves, reels. It might mean collaboration. So there are a lot of different ways to generate more traffic. But you need to first identify if you have a traffic or a conversion problem. And afterwards, for the profile optimization, you need to show empathy for your users. And this is, again, where psychology comes into place. You need to merge the technical elements, which is data driven and the human elements. Because at the end of the day, every single social media platform has an algorithm. But the truth is that these algorithms aren't important at all. Because the goal of the algorithm is actually to change the user. Because the user is constantly changing his preference, his behavior on the platform. So the algorithms job is actually to catch up to the user. And most creators are stuck in the loop of catching up to the algorithm, meaning that they always stay one step behind. That's why in my approach to social media, I try to combine both. I try to understand the algorithm and what he's seeking. But I also try to show empathy for the end user. And that way, I'm not constantly chasing the algorithm, which is constantly chasing the users. I'm going directly for the users. And I'm going directly for the algorithm. Very good. I like your approach. I think that there's a lot of people can take away from how you approach social. Because at one point, you made about creators always chasing an algorithm. I think that that's something that you see quite a bit. Even on even on even on marketing forums and conversations with people that are relatively established marketers, they're always trying to figure out the algorithm, trying to figure out the algorithm. And that's all they're trying to optimize for. Which like you said, is a hard thing to to base your social like your social strategy on. Okay, so what I like to do, we have there's a lot of good stuff that came out of this. I do like to finish these off with more questions about you as an entrepreneur and a creator, just some life lessons that you've learned over your career. But before I pivot, was there anything else that you wanted to bring up about about marketing, and I'll get all your socials and whatnot at the end. So don't worry about that. But like your business, Instagram, creative content, strategy that we didn't touch on. Yeah, so the biggest thing is actually mindset. I do believe that growing in social media is 8% mindset and 20% knowing your technical elements. If you don't have the right mindset, no matter how much work you put in, no matter how well your understanding of social media is, you're going to be failing. And that's actually where most business owners made the mistake. Yes, they might hire an agency. But one month after not seeing results with that agency, there are constantly going to be changing different agencies. And that's because they don't have the right mindset of patients. They're constantly probably comparing to competitors. And that is leading them in a rabbit hole which, as mentioned, no matter what kind of resources or knowledge you might have. If you don't have the right mindset and the right expectations, you're going to be failing miserably. So the biggest thing for me has been commitment, making sure that I commit to a certain schedule and a certain goal. Because even though that my agency has been successful and that at the beginning of 2020, March 31st when I began my journey on Instagram, putting in 40-hour days on Instagram wasn't worth it for me. I was already established with my agency. I had plans like QnSEF, Fema, Cambridge, whole thing. So there was no point in me wasting so much time on an activity which didn't generate any revenue for my agency. But at the same time, I had the bigger picture in goal. I committed and they didn't quit, which is something that 90% of people make. Because you never know when you are going to be going viral. That's why you need to stick out, you need to commit. Of course, you need to know when to quit the swell, but don't quit too early. Because your next post might have been viral and it might have changed your whole whole. Yeah, it's the balloon effect, right? So you know, you see marginal improvements over a year, two years, but then all of a sudden, all that cumulative effort just explodes and then you get this incredible amount of traction. And now that two years of where you got to two years is double in a month or two months or whatever. That's very important as well. But it is important to know, it is important to know when to quit, but it's also important to not quit too soon. So it's that fine balance, right? That's a very good and mine. Very good. Yeah, like anything can live. It's a balancing game. Very good. Okay. As an entrepreneur, as somebody who's built out a successful agency, somebody who wants to go and build an agency, there's a lot of agencies. What would be advice that you would give somebody going into entrepreneurship? Always find ways to over-deliver, because that's the best way of getting new clients. And David Ogievi has said it the best. If you want more clients, the best thing you can do is focusing on the work you have right now on your desk, because when you are over-delivering, when you're treating the business of others like your own business and you're doing everything in your power and even above it in order to satisfy them, you can bet that they are going to tell their friends that they're going to be telling their business partners and that your business is going to be growing exponentially. Up until 10 months ago, my whole business has been built on referrals. Yes, I was part of networking organizations such as BNI, but most of my business has come from referrals, because I did a great job at something and people made sure to pay me back. Again, the Ritzprosti principle that we discussed a way back. Good advice. A myth about either marketing or Instagram, more specifically, that you want to debunk. The biggest myth is that the algorithm has anything against you and this can be said in life as well. I just wasn't meant to be right or I just don't have work or everyone else just has more capability than me. No, the reality is that everyone has potential and everyone can't make it work. They just need discipline, the right mindset and commitment. So know the algorithm doesn't have anything against you. Know you don't lack work. Know you have the right skills at your disposal. You just need to be brave enough to show very good advice. What a resource could be a book, a person you mentioned when we mentioned that a few, that you'd recommend people check out that have helped you on your journey. So there are a lot of different resources as a person who has been self thought. The biggest advice that I can give to other people who are trying to learn a new skill has been first understand what kind of format you learn the best at. For example, it could be audio, it could be video, it can be written. So by understanding that, you can actually cater every single resource and consume only one type of content because that's the most effective way for you to learn. So I will be giving resources for every single type of content the book that has influenced me the most has been win without pitching manifesto. So this is a book which is suitable for anyone growing an agency or who has client relationships with different businesses. So this is the book that I recommend. The podcast which I recommend is marketing school by new hotel because he loves diving deep into the data elements and experimenting with different different cases, trying them out on his own and then reporting back as well as success podcasts as well. And the video channel which I recommend the most especially for Instagram marketing has been hey Dominic and for creator business in general the crystal is my favorite which with the future. Yeah but no that's that's man I asked for one resource and you just that's awesome thank you I actually have to check out I have to check out that book because I've never read that book I'm gonna yeah it's really short I'm pretty good that's another one to go amazon or audible okay a lesson you would tell your younger self even though you're already young be patient yeah. No worries no worries I get that a lot so the biggest thing would be be patient yes I because I felt different startups and I had a lot of experience even before starting out and I felt a lot I was I had a certain amount of patience to me but to be honest the amount of mental strength that it was required in order to not compare myself to competitors in order to stay balanced and stay focused in order to not let the inner voices of doubt get to me was immense and it carried me it made me tired all the time so the biggest advice I would have would be just be patient don't quit until you shall win if you have this mentality in place then you can put unlimited resources and still feel motivated still feel excited to find new ways to improve and that's the way you make business and social media work for you as well because even right now at 100,000 followers I'm constantly trying to learn from my competitors from my audience on how to improve and how to develop myself because you need to be brave enough to go out of your comfort zone to be humble enough to admit that you're not perfect because no one is perfect perfection is subjective as well and at the same time be constantly learning new ways to improve adapt because the most adaptable truly survive tomorrow instagram might change their algorithm tomorrow your government might announce a new wall which makes your business unoperational so you have to find ways to adapt survive and commit to that's important and I think that that's something that if anything 2020 has taught us right it's the major major disrupting towards what we thought was comfortable and safe and jobs that we thought were comfortable and safe and business models we thought were comfortable and safe has been turned upside down it's a very good the very good thing to sort of keep with us and you know hopefully things will get back to normal but never to forget that that you know that you always have to be doing the like learning and improving and being flexible in your approach and that's really how you win great points last question before we get all of your socials and what not what does success mean for you success mean sustainability and balance I was yes I'm quite young but a couple of years ago when I was just starting my agency I was at the point where in which I was overworking myself to the point in which I actually was hospitalized and at that point I realized that yes my whole life up until now from 10 to 17 I have been constantly avoiding working for someone else creating a business of mine with the goal that this business will make me free and at the same time the amount of work I was putting myself through was restraining me so for me success mean sustainability there isn't any point in you making seven figures eight figures whatever your goal is and then burning out and yeah you need to have yeah yeah so you need to have the mentality of the one from game this doesn't mean procrastinating but it means taking smaller goals something joy in life because at the end of the day you create a business so the business can work for you not the other way around very smart very smart okay most importantly where do people connect with you your agency social websites all of that thank you so the best way for people to connect with me right now is my youtube channel because I just started it out several days ago meaning that I don't get spammed with messages all the time and I can reply really swiftly so marketing hurry the handle is the same on LinkedIn Instagram and YouTube but the best way to connect with me would be on my YouTube channel and is there you have your agency as well do you want to put that website in the in the show oh not really my agency yeah my agency is found by the people who are brave enough to seek it so I keep it on the back end my content is definitely my yeah so it is all referrals you you you are confident that well yeah I guess you you you you you walk the walk because if you're getting all that traffic just from your own name you're doing something right so good you