Bruce Boise, Author of Cold Comfort | $425 Million Pharma Lawsuit Whistleblower & Government Informant

Welcome to the success story podcast, I'm your host, Scott Clary. On this podcast, I have candid interviews with execs, celebrities, politicians, and other notable figures, all who have achieved success through both wins and losses, to learn more about their life, their ideas, and their insights. I sit down with leaders and mentors and unpack their story to help pass those lessons onto others through both experiences and tactical strategy for business professionals, entrepreneurs, and everyone in between. Without further ado, another episode of the success story podcast. All right, thanks again for joining me. Today, I am sitting down with Bruce Boyce, who works for nearly 24 years in the pharmaceutical industry, first as a hospital representative, then as a sales manager in the Great Lakes region, after losing his job, after losing his job, because he was a whistleblower for a very large false claims issue where, and Steph Lahn was a legal marketing off label prescription drug usage, he spent the next 17 years working with the United States Justice Department on two separate false claims acts cases against his former employer, Steph Lahn, and Teva. He is the author of a new book called Comfort, one man struggled to stop the legal marketing of powerful opioid drugs and to save lives. He was featured on CBS TV, the whistleblower. He is an advocate for patients, he's worked with a lot of professionals in the field. He works with the public and with doctors to support whistleblowers to make sure that drugs are used for the proper use to educate patients on their rights and all around just an interesting career turn for somebody who works still long as a representative of the pharmaceutical industry. So Bruce, I really appreciate you sitting down. I would love to unwrap the entire story, start with your career, but also the entire story that led to where we are today because there was a huge, huge lawsuit, tons of fines and damages, but how did that actually occur? What was the story that led up to that? Well, first of all, Scott, thanks for having me on and telling my story. The first part of this started when I was an area manager with a company around the year 2000. And what occurred was that I noticed that some of my reps were upset that their bonuses weren't higher than they thought they should be. And what I noticed was that there was a group, another area, we were in a national meeting and we were promoting GABA Trill at the time, which is an anti-convulsive drug. The group was promoting the drug for anxiety in psychiatry, which is an illegal, off-label promotion. And I was really upset with it and I decided if this was what was going to happen, at least I was going to try to stop this and save my job. And also I thought to save the company because I thought it was just a roguery manager that was doing this. And lo and behold, it wasn't a roguery manager. It was the decision that the company was going to sell all their products, off-label, unlawfully. And we had three at the time. It would have been GABA Trill Provisual and Actique, Actique is a fentanyl product. And so with that, I just decided that I was going to move on and get my resume together. I was going to just get another air management shop. I was at the top of the heap in the industry. I had one presence club all over whether it would be a manager or a rep and I figured I'd just move on. And a nurse called me and said, hey, would you do something about this because you know this is illegal? And I said, yeah, sure, almost like to blow her off is to, yeah, sure, I'll do that. I'm thinking that her sister was FBI now, Texas. And so that's how it got started because then I got a call from OCI, which is Office of Criminal Investigation, and those are the federal agents for the FDA. And that's how it got started. And tell me something, so what, when you first uncover this, I think that it's very financially motivated and incentivized. When did you realize, like you mentioned this woman called you and she said, can you do something about this? When did you realize it was a little bit more widespread than just the people wanting to hit bonus, which is obviously not enough of a reason as it is, but I mean, still it could be addressed. You said you mentioned a rogue area manager, a few rogue sales rep. So how did you know this was a top down issue? What happened was that I was demoted from an airy manager because I voiced my opinion. And then I went back into as a hospital rep. And as the one or two years moved on, I was trying to save the company, save my job, and it just kept going the way that I thought they shouldn't go. And I finally was sort of frustrated with it, just said, look, you know what, I'm just going to get a different job and move on. And I really hadn't, you know, whistleblower wasn't even in my mind. All it was was trying to protect the company and protect my job. And so I was going to just move on and I'd taken a vacation and she called me on my vacation and she said, hey, would you do something about it? I know you could. And I said, well, I can't really because I don't know who to contact. Who would you contact? And so I really didn't know who to get a hold of. And I figured, well, I'll just appease her and say, yes, sure. If you've got somebody, I'll talk to them. And I've already been through, you know, my manager, my boss's boss, I went through HR. And as that played out, I could see that, you know, I became a voice for not promoting off-label illegally. And that's what the company wanted. So the company knew who I was and what I wanted, what I didn't, I wasn't going to do. And, you know, they turned around on me because I wasn't promoting off-label. My sales tanked and they got rid of me. And so that's what, that's, that's eventually what occurred. But in that period of time, you know, I was still current with the company and I figured I'd just get a different job and move on. And that's what I was doing. And this, this final settlement of over 425 million dollars, that's a, it's like mind-blowing when you think of where you started just trying to deal with a few bad apples. I think we've all been in, in the corporate situation where we raise a red flag or we're not happy with something and then it kind of gets pushed under the rug or it's not given the attention it's deserved but not a lot of us go through this, this level of, I guess, investigation, career turmoil, I know you were black balls from the industry, so this is the next level stuff. Now, when somebody reaches out to you like that and you realize you can do something, walk me through what that investigation looks like as an individual and employee in the company. How does that start and how does that progress? Oh, that's a great question in Scott because isn't that as hard of it as that? How do people do this? How do this is one of the things that I ran into a wall with is that, first of all, you wind up, one of the things I try to do is that I try, I went to the Justice Department office in Columbus, Ohio where I was living. And people don't realize the security involved with prosecutors. It's almost like trying to get into a police station uninvited. There's security, there's doors, I dropped my name off, no one got back with me. I wasn't even allowed to come in the building. So it was like, I was pretty frustrated with it because it was like, you know, I tried to do certain things with it and it just seemed like there was just no way that that was going to happen. And so what happened with, I'll call or sue, not to use your real name. You wind up saying, well, let me get a hold of somebody and I said, sure, well, you set up a meeting with that with the individuals and their OCI office scrimal investigation. So they're federal agents, just like FBI. And you go through an interview process with them and at that time I thought I was just thinking, okay, I'll just turn over documentation to accompany the government will know what's going on and that would be fine. And if I have to testify later, I'll be in another job and I'll just do that. And so about the second interview, they asked me to wear a wire and that's when things changed. That's when it got real. That's when I went, wow, this is like, you know, I became, you know, they want me to become under cover informant for the government. So we're still far away from the worst of all thing. So with that, I said, yes, because I, you know, I, to me, I thought it was wrong and that what they were trying to do was not just off label promotion for a cough cold product that was relatively safe, generically to the population. But they were off labeling the marketing for fentanyl. And if you know anything about fentanyl, it's an opioid, it's 100 times more potent and morphing. It is a product that you're not to give it to drug naive patients. So when you wind up starting promoting a fentanyl product to drug naive patients, you're going to get in a little trouble real quick. And that's what I was worried about. And so consequently, I finally turn around and said, yes, I'll wear the wire. And with that, you know, you're a fingerprinted photograph as an undercover informant for the government. And that leads us into the national meeting where I wore the wire. That's a super stressful thing to go through. How did you make that decision? Was it just an ethical decision? There was no question about it. Or did you maybe not understand the full scope of consequences, career consequences that come of it? I think it was two things. It was both those things at the same time. What is that? I just morally and ethically, I thought that what they were doing was way over the line, way, way over the line to for sales to increase, to put it risk patients and really put doctors at risk and ever, you know, with misleading information. And so I just thought it was just a line of too far over the line. The other is that I just really felt like that, that if I could wear the wire and stop them, it would save lives. That's what that's really what I thought is that if I could just wear the wire, it would be somebody reasonable, would finally step in and say, hey, look, you know, you've got to stop this. And the company would basically be saved and basically, you know, and maybe those patients would be saved. So that's what I thought now I was going through your head when they first, when they first asked you. So you agreed to it, right? Sorry, I didn't mean to have, sorry, you were going to say, I didn't mean to talk to you. I got your second half of your question. Sorry. No, no, I was just saying, I was just wondering if you knew the implications. And I think actually, actually, let's bundle implications with whistleblower protections. I think that's a whole bunch of things that people don't quite understand properly because again, not really many people go through this in their career. So let's just walk through how the case played out. So you were asked to wear the wire. How often did you wear the wire? Were you wearing it at work every day? You mentioned an annual general meeting. What was the actual, what are the investigation piece of that entail? How that played out for the first time I wore the wire was at the National Sales Meeting. And I wore the wire every day for eight to nine hours. And so there's a lot of detail to that, that's fascinating how they actually do it. But you know, and I was still in good state with the company. So I just figured I was going to wear the wire, turn over the information, interview with somebody else and move on it with my career. And that's not what occurred. And I think that one of the things that happens is that the federal investigators have to work so hard to wind up getting the company caught red handed at doing this, that it takes an insider to give them the information like this over a long period of time. There was really sort of a two year period that I worked with the government pretty intensely. And it was more than once that I wore the wire. So to answer that question. So it was quite a long time to wind up working with the federal government as an undercover informant and not be a whistleblower. You could have backed out of this help with the government and you could have turned around and said, I'm going to file as a whistleblower with a false claims act. And you would have gotten a key term lawyer and you would have wound up, you know, been the first to file. And that's not what happened to me. I kept working with the government to try to build the case, to try to slow the company down to what they were doing. And other people filed in front of me and the false claims act. And so it was really, in effect, the just apartment considered me first to file because of the work I did because that's sort of the basis of whether you're first or second in the false claims act. So with that, it was like, you know, there was a lot going on moving parts of this. You know, one is that I was an undercover informant, I was collecting the information. And as we got the documentation and we got a tremendous amount of evidence that of the wrongdoing by the company, you know, the other thing happened, the lead investigator Greg that was on 60 minutes, he was interviewed by 60 minutes, you know, the FDA didn't want to prosecute the company. So it was like Greg and another US attorney out of Columbus wanted to turn around and charge them with drug trafficking. So they would have been able to close the company's doors and they would have been able to put those kind of laws in place statutes against the company and the FDA didn't want to do that. They wanted to handle it differently. Greg was actually moved off the case and I got a different lead investigator. Now, this is all before I became quote unquote, you know, a whistleblower, right? And we kept investing in the company almost two years into it. And by the time I got to the fall of 2004 of the lead investigator that was leaving instead, you really need to get a lawyer and protect yourself. And that's when I got a hold of Phillips and Cohen Peter Chadfield. And that's when I we filed in those ill four on the first case. And that's and that's how the first case started was probably September, October of 2004. And then what is what is that point where you transition from and that's the point where you transition from just an informant into an official whistleblower on the company? Correct. Correct. Now, what happens after that official whistleblower status, are you still working for the company at this point? And at the time I was I was fired by the company and that happened probably like July and it gave me severance, but you know, I was looking for a job and I actually actually had a great job that I was interviewing in San Diego. And I was a director of training for them. And they had said that I was basically hired. I had actually packed my suitcases to leave home to not only just do final interview with the execs involved with the company, but I was supposed to go to Arizona for their national meeting. Sorry. The interviewer just do says the director of training. And what happened was that somebody from Sefflon called the company and next my job. And I was escorted out by security immediately. So how did they and can and I just the one point that I didn't I didn't understand was so you had you were now an official whistleblower. And now you're obviously this is a indication you're getting black balled in the industry by other by in other industry stakeholders because of what happened at Sefflon. But how did they how did they know how did they actually they they let you go with severance like it doesn't seem like a tumultuous break to that relationship it actually seems quite non non you know non stressful when they let you go. So was it just a matter of did you announce that your whistleblower and they're like okay walk you at the door or or how do they let you go and what was that relationship break like? Oh, you mean with Sefflon? Yeah, with Sefflon, sorry, yeah. What occurred is that there was a distance card by one of the agents that had Columbus Ohio on it. And so at the time in the national meeting they sort of had an idea that it might it might be me giving the information to the FDA. And that's that's my speculation. That's what I think occurred. And so they sort of know who it was but they they had to figure out okay, how are we going to do this? Yeah. And so we you can't just come in and fire somebody for no cause, right? And so they had to sort of play that out about what they were going to do. And I went through this whole thing about it was like oh, you're selling skills are bad now. And you know, you know, the whole routine it's all on you. You're selling skills are bad. You know, we don't know what happened to you, but you just sort of fell apart. Well, it was just, you know, crap. That's all it was. And it was just trying to get rid of me. And so at that point I sort of figured, well, you know, the gigs up, I'm ready to go. And so my boss said, well, why don't you talk to HR and get a package? So they were trying to steer me out to get a package. And if I got a package and I signed off, then then they felt like they were okay. And that's what that's what occurred. That's how that. So it was like, yeah, it looks like, you know, and even the vice president at the time called and said, oh, we love you, Bruce. And we hate to see you go. Real. Yeah. Whatever. Yeah. You just play skating. You just playing nice, playing nice. Yeah. So, you know, you mentioned you got black ball from that one company that you had actually, you know, you thought you had the job, obviously not. And you and somebody from Seth Lawn or you used to assume somebody from Seth Lawn most likely doesn't sound too far fetched, stop you from getting that job. So what was, are there not laws to protect whistleblowers, you know, career, you know, career prospects? Yeah. Any. So what happened after you were let go? What was your, what was your life like after you were let go? Yeah. You know, Scott, and I think that that's a really great question to your audience. And the reason why is that there really needs to be a change in legislation in the false claims act where it pertains to the whistleblower. And, and, and when you are what I consider like a real whistleblower where you work to build the case and you know it's a good federal case against the, the company involved that, that, and you've gone through hell to, and you, and I was a millionaire before I was a whistleblower and I lost everything. And so the whole idea that I'm, I did this for all this money. I was making 340,000 a year, 20 years ago. Yeah. So just multiply that and what I've received from, from the settlements probably wasn't adequate. What I'm saying is that it, you don't do this for money. Yeah. But what occurs in the false claims act is there's a section H and the section H talks about, you know, if you retaliated against that you get X amount of income for this or that the other. The problem is that doesn't kick in until like the end of a case. If a case is thrown out of court, then that kicks in. Or if the case is settled, it kicks in at the end of the settlement period. Now, the, now the issue with that is that you, you know, we settled for 425 million dollars. There was 57 million for the real, there were four, four total relators. So the, you know, 57 million was like divided up and I wasn't first to file and first while it gets the line share over 50% of that. So, so with that, you know, you, you really sort of let your section H of the retaliatory side go because you're signing off on this really big case, right? So, so what happens is that the, the whistleblower is really not protected through this whole process early on. Yes, there are things that kick in later for the whistleblower as far as retaliation things like that. But it's not till the end of the case or the case is either settled or it's, it fails and it gets thrown out and then the section H comes back for you. So that, that's what I, that's why I stay in the book that you, we really do need to look at how can we do this and, and, and I don't mean to get into like a constitutional issue as well, but you really, in a criminal case, you really can't have a whistleblower paid by the federal government. It doesn't, that makes sense, doesn't it? You can't have that. So, there's got to be some other kind of form or protection that let's say, let's say the whistleblower goes two years and they're able to be left alone and, and the cases presented, fail or succeed on that. And, and there, there are protections early on on the whistleblower that they're able to collect that evidence. Now, some of it is done in the sense that the false claims cases are sealed by, by the justice department. And so that allows the prosecutors to work behind the scenes when the, when the company doesn't realize it, they're a target. But that still doesn't, that aspect of it still doesn't help the whistleblower. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. It's just very, very interesting and very complex, like I'm, I'm coming in as such a layman to this entire world and I know you've, you've lived it and, you know, even before we started, you said this was the, the, the world of, of, and now understanding all the legal around whistle blowing, around false claims, even at the advocacy work you're doing right now, it's become like a second career for you, which I don't think you originally meant for it to be, but it's, it's, it's very interesting. It's just the whole, the whole story is just very interesting. And I think that, you know, even just when I first, when I first read about your story and I watched 60 minutes episode, just the fact that speaking to somebody who's actually gone through this, because we always think like these corporations, oh, well, they more or less, you know, played by the rules. And they, they definitely don't. And I think that's what, you know, that was literally turned into the story of your life. So, you know, now you understand, like, there's some issues with legislation. You weren't properly, well, you're not, you weren't properly protected, but you weren't able to be protected, given the fact that nothing can really kick in until all these things are settled and done with. So what, what happened in your life after this occurred? What happened with your job? You said you got blackball from one job. I think there was, oh my God. Here where you mentioned, there was some homeless, like this is a tough, this is not easy stuff, right? I mean, you can 340K as a pharmaceutical sales rep going to a president's club every year. That's a nice life. So what happened? 10 minutes. And Scott, this is, I started writing the book and I'll start off this way. I started writing the book and my lead counsel, let Peter Chafffield, 10 years ago said, oh, you got to write a book. What you went through, you've got to write a book and I go, I know, Peter, I know. But we were in the second case at that time. So what happened? I thought I was, I fall off the cliff. I thought, okay, you know, I'm a glass full all the time. I'm an optimistic person. And so I knew that I was going to have some tough time and I'd get a different job. I just didn't think that, you know, what occurs is that you get blackball. But once you get blackballed, what happens is that if you're out of the industry, you're out of your career. So it's not just a job, you lose your career. I had spent 24 years in this career. So at that point, then, then you try to go to do an interview. And let's say, you know, I say in the book that I was interviewed for Sears Sighting and I was going to sell Sears Sighting. And the guy that was across from me looked at my resume and he looked up again and he said, what are you doing here? That's what he said. The interview was over. He said, what are you doing here? You made this much money. You were a manager, you were about to be a director in training. What are you doing trying to sell Sears Sighting? And he goes, I'm afraid what's going to happen is that I'm going to hire you. And he said, then you're going to get a job. You're going to go right back where you were. And that's sort of kicked in. It's like people went hire me because they were afraid they were going to lose me like because of what I had done before and maybe they were right. So it went from your job losing the career and then just not able to secure employment. And then I had I was I was interviewing for wound care and it was the Pennsylvania company for wound care and I was interviewing and I was still working with justice at the time. And the US attorney turned around and said, are you interviewing for so and so wound care? And I go, yeah, she goes, you want to wear a wire? I go, no, no, I don't want to wear a wire. And the company that I was interviewing for, they were investigating. And they want me to wear a wire because I did such a great job with the other that they said, oh, you're good, we trust you. And I go, absolutely not, I'm not doing that. And so there were there were a lot of those things that took place. But as that came about, I lost everything. I lost career jobs, houses, cars to a point where I was painting with my son, just trying to make ends meet. I blew up my shoulders from painting and I had rotator cuff issues and I couldn't paint. And so then a friend of mine as in the book gave me a job flipping hamburgers for $10 an hour. And that's what saved me other than being homeless. I think I moved five times in one year. So it was like, you know, with my mom, with my brother, then a friend, and then that fell apart. And you lose things. You wind up, you have assets and you have books or you have clothes. And if you move five times in one year, you start to lose all that. You know, you just, it was devastating. And when I started writing the book, it took me like, I had to stop. I took four months. I couldn't do it. I couldn't go back into it again. And once you lose everything, once you lose like career job, cars, houses, you lose everything. And now you're flipping burgers for $10 an hour. And people ask me, would you do it again? And, you know, and what do you get out of this, right? Well, one thing you get, you get this sense that, you know, you really try to do something bigger in yourself to try to protect people that were innocent, right? So that's a good feeling for yourself. But there is another aspect of it. And the other aspect of it is that you purge yourself almost. You lose everything and you find out about yourself. And I don't think I would, I would never change that at all because of what I learned about myself and learned about how much stronger I am and learn about, you know, you know, and I know what I, was I depressed in some periods, yes, from it. But what I went through and I learned so much about myself and my family came together, it was pretty powerful, it was very, very powerful. So with that, on one side, yeah, you lose all the other things and you have to adjust. But on the other side of it, what you receive is something that lasts you all your life of who you are and it feels pretty good, actually. I could see that and I think that I think that you make a really good point because I don't want to, as people listen to this, I don't want them to feel dissuaded or feel scared to do the right thing if for, you know, God forbid there are situations like this because you know, there's an issue with the legislation, you went through some tough times, you did the right thing, but you're making a ton of money before and the settlement isn't really what drove you. But I think that there's a lot more to purpose in life and you do come out on top. If you have that conviction, if you have that, like just, you know, you push through all of this stuff and it was tough for a bit, but now look at what you're doing now. So you have a book, you know, you have a career you can be proud of, you have one hell of a story and the personality of a guy who's successful in the first place, those traits always you come back, they do rebound and now you're doing incredible work and you're doing other things. So I think that that's really the takeaway. I don't want to like dissuade people from doing the right thing because it's tough, but you know, at the end of the day, like you're living proof, like you mentioned, like some of the lessons you learned about yourself are probably more than you, you ever thought you'd get out of this in terms of any sort of, you know, recognition, settlement, compensation. That's not what, that's not what you do this stuff, right? That's exactly right. That's not, you don't, first of all, you don't take this on because you're gonna wind up making a pile of money. That's not, that's usually not what it is. You're motivated. There was a fascinating study that Peter Chaffell, excuse me, got me into in Harvard. He's a lawyer and he's a doctor as well and he did a study, you know, why do whistleblowers do what they do? And the study is really fascinating and the study basically broke down one simple answer. Something happened in their lives prior that they decided to pick up the cards on the tape. Something occurred, and for me, when I was in my first company, it was, we had a product called Felbitol and it was an anti-convulsive drug that was indicated for Lenox Caso. And it has multiple seizure activity. So this, the epilepsy syndrome has multiple seizures to it. It's the kids that wear the helmet that they fall down. That's Lenox Caso patients, so usually institutionalized. And it was a really good product for that. The trouble is, is that, you know, they didn't, they didn't require a blood level and the company wasn't high science. And so what occurred was that we ran into problems with a plastic anemia and hepatic failure with that product. And I was really close to a group neurologist out of Cincinnati. And what occurred was that they sent me next to the patient that my drug almost killed. And they saved the patient. And so I sat in the grand rounds next to the patient. And they went through, the grand rounds was, was four double tall and this patient. And, you know, the, the chief at the time said, this is what we do. This is why it's important of what you say to us. And so that stuck with, and so when all this occurred, you know, the the study, the Harvard professor turned around and said, you know, this is, this is probably why you picked up the cards is because it was just not going to be on your, your, you were not going to let this go by on your watch. And that's why you picked up the cards. So it's a, it's a fascinating thing. But, and I, and, and again, to reiterate what you mentioned prior, there are so many other positives that come out of this, you know, even, even the judge in the, in the, in the cases turned around and said, Bruce, I know it's a long time, but the statute worked, it worked. And so, you know, there are really great positive things that come out of it and, and possibility of change. Yeah. Right? You, you can as an individual in this country. That's what's so great about this country. You can as an individual in this country, make change. But you just have to commit, you have to be able to be committed to that. So there are, there are great positives out of this. And you, you, it's worthwhile for you to reiterate that, that, that out of this whole chaos and, and destruction and all this that occurred, that, you know, you can, you can affect good in this country with that. It is a nice ending to the story, like, thank goodness, because that's one, that's one hell of a journey that you went on. Now, now walk me through what you're working on now, you know, even I, when we spoke before, I said, you know, we can speak about your book. And then the first thing you said is, no, that's actually not what I want to speak about. I'm doing something much more important than my book. I'm like, okay, so let's, let's, let's go into that. So, and I agree. I think that that's, that's nicely brought that up, like the advocacy working with doctors, working with patients. So what are you doing now? What's, you know, what's your mission? Sure. So, so right now, what's, what's happening is that we're launching the book, but, but what has transitioned is that the book talks about what I went through early on with pharmaceutical and, and the fentanyl product and all that. But now the country has transitioned. And, and could there be some of that still going on in pharmaceutical? Probably some of it, but really what's happening is that you've got an opioid crisis now in America. And with that, you've got, you know, fentanyl is cheaper than heroin. And, you know, the CDC just released information that 71,000 in 2019, overdosed with an opioid. So the numbers are up. And, and this predate, this number from the CDC predates what's going on with Corona right now. So it's like, you know, you know, you're still got major issues, major problems with opioid epidemic. And with that, what I noticed is that it's really approached a multi-organizational approach. And so, if you wind up throwing your support to prop its physicians for responsible opioid prescribing. And so, or A to A A T O D, which is American Association for Treatment of Opioid Dependency. So, so there are groups that are available that most people don't know anything about. The families don't know anything about that if they, they did a little Google search and they'd find help because right now, the big thing is, is, you know, I think a multi-organizational approach to help resolve some of the, you know, opioid problem in America. So that's what I'm trying to do right now is to promote those, those organizations and also help in that. I've got a conference call tomorrow that I'm talking to one of the chairpersons of one of those groups to try to partner up to do something with that. So, it's a good thing to do. And I think it's sort of an extension of what I went through in the book. And I think it makes a positive effect in America. And walk me through, there's a ton of, like the work you're doing with all of these advocacy groups is, is incredible. I think that's very important. But another point that I wanted to discuss is the complications and the, and I guess the help and support you're giving individuals who may not be, who may not be addict, but they just want to understand drug options because that's a much more relatable for me at least, you know, that's a much more relatable cause helping me understand when I go to my doctor, what they should be prescribing me and not if off brand is ever okay, because I think that that's something that's very confusing for people that aren't suffering from addiction, right? That's just every single day, you know, you go to a doctor and you get confused. And not necessarily, hopefully, right? It's all, right? It's everything. Yeah. There's everything. One of the things I do, especially in my podcast, I talk about an off-label prescription that is legitimate, that if, if a, if a doctor winds up seeing a patient and they have a medical condition, and the medical condition has failed gold standard all in all other areas of therapy, they're really out of, they're out of cards to play on this. And so they basically can go to an off-label prescription to see if there can be some information. And, and, and that usually there's a lot of information that is available. There's a companion that talks about off-label information on certain products that the drug and the pharmacist have. And so the physician goes by that, and usually it's a drug that's pretty safe, effective, and they've got a lot of information and they can go off-label with that, and they write a prescription for that. Now that's okay. What I've talked about with the pharmaceutical company that illegally promotes off-label, that's an issue that that is can be dangerous. But you still have to be an advocate for yourself as a patient. In other words, if let's say you Scott, go to a doctor, and the doctor says, hey, look, you really need a script. This script is off-label. You need to have the right questions that you can, and it doesn't take a lot to do. Today in today's society, you can google what the doctor's prescribing for you, and you can ask relevant educated questions about what I'm what am I getting? What is going on here? And what kind of side effects do I have? What do I expect out of this? And what are you trying to hope out of your treatment modality? And I think that's really important to say to people, look, you can take responsibility of your, there's so many people I think walk into a doctor's office, and I know it's fast, and I know it's quick, and you've got to be on your toes with the questions. But you have that, you have that right to ask those questions. And I think, especially in today's society, that I think that's really very important. And tell me something that's very relevant now, and you can go as opinionated or not as this, but at least we can at least start high level with coronavirus, with hydroxychloroquine, with the doctors in DC that just did a press release. I think, you know, today were the, what's the day today? Were the 28th, and I think a day or two ago, there's a whole bunch of doctors in DC just a press release, and I heard one of the doctors saying that this is an off-brand use for hydroxychloroquine that actually works, preventing and treating coronavirus, plus I think a couple other insular supplements. When you see this, what are your thoughts on this, is somebody who's worked in the industry? Just keep it high level, and I'm curious as to what you think. My basis goes back to my training, and my training is from the package insert. And the package insert is all relevant information, usually, to describe any drug that's approved by the FDA for a specific medical condition. We all know that, or most know that, right? But the issue with that, or the source of that, is pharmacology. And pharmacology is based on pharmacodynamics and pharmacokinetics. And those two aspects, those two aspects, are what's the basis of the studies, and all the information that comes out of it. So when you're targeted a drug for a medical condition, and you do the studies, what happens is that you wind up getting the information that is both effective and at stake. Now that can go on, and for any drug that can go on. But when a doctor or doctors have this one product that has been around forever, and all of a sudden it's in a new indication, a lot of times what occurs is that the FDA then expedites a secondary indication, and they'll do a post-review of a drug, and get the information to the doctors that becomes a more stable situation for prescribing, that's more reliable. And I think that both those things have to happen at the same time. It could be really complicated, but it's not unusual for, for example, Neurontin was used for as an epilepsy drug for years and years and years. And now it's prescribed really for mood stabilization by psychiatry. And it actually, I think, works better in that area. And so all that rolled into it eventually, time will tell, but eventually came out where the studies were done. It became effective. And now Neurontin is really the gold standard for that. So that's a involved process and it takes time. What we got now with the coronavirus is that we're trying to get a vaccination and get out and to stop the virus. And so there are things that are being expedited by the FDA, which is a good thing. And it's a good thing that the pharmaceutical industry is actually, they're smart, they can do this. Rather than just doing a MeToo drug for the society, do something for the society and get a vaccination out. So those things can go hand in hand. And as I said earlier in the broadcast, I'm an optimistic person and I'm positive that they're able to figure that out. And hopefully, then share that with the world, right? Yeah, I like that answer a lot. So there is possibility for drugs to be, and this is a very, again, layman's terms, but eventually repurposed if the proper due diligence, the proper investigation, doing it, doing it safely. These are all things that have to be taken into consideration. I was just, I was curious if that was a thing that does occur in his, in medical history, but it obviously does is something that happens if the, if the, if the proper research comes to light about the drug in particular. So I guess that that's what a lot of these doctors are indicating. And they're saying that the tests haven't been done yet. But, you know, anecdotally, without without the proper investigation, they've seen it work. So it's interesting to, you know, at least at the very, at the very minimum, there's some hope for some of, for some of these drugs, if not something, net new to come to light based on, you know, what we're hearing from doctors. And I think the one thing that I, you know, this is just more my personal opinion. I just wish that this whole, this whole issue wasn't politicized. That's really my biggest issue with it. And I think that that's what a lot of it has come to. And that's unfortunate. You know, it's very, very unfortunate. And who, and who, and who hurts from that? Who gets hurt from that? You or I? No, it's somebody that is sort of ignorant of the process that they don't know what goes on. And, and they get bounced around and maybe their loved one goes into ICU and now a ventilator and they could have had something that maybe would have helped them. And they're, and their, and their family member dies. That's not right. It's got that's not wrong. No, that's, it's very sad. It's, it's horrible, actually. And that's what, you know, that, that's my biggest issue with coronavirus. It's the fact that it's become a political topic, which I think is, you don't politicize the pandemic. And regardless of the drugs that you use, the regard, you know, it's been horrible and, and, and with that, you know, people struggle and, and, and I have, I talked to people all the time about that they're confused. They're totally confused with it. And eventually, you know, medicine is, is science, but it's an art. It just, it just takes time for that to play out. And eventually we'll get there. Okay. It's, it's just, it's just unfortunate that people on both sides muddy the water and then all of a sudden it becomes a political football. And who, who gets heard are the patients that, you know, like, for example, the, the, the elderly. Yeah. I mean, it becomes a political football. And really, but they should have been focusing on is, is the patients that are most at risk, right? Yeah, I agree. No, it's, it's unfortunate. Anyways, let's not, that's, it's a very, it's a, it's a, it's very real for a lot of people. So I don't want to, I don't want to overshadow your story with, with what's going on with the politics and coronavirus because that can go on for another, another hour of, more of conversation. Okay. So I, I have, I have some, some, some rapid questions. But before I get into those, is there anything about, about your story, about the book, about, you know, about your journey to where you're at right now that we didn't go into. I didn't know to ask, you know, any floors open for any sort of closing thoughts. I have to give kudos to, to my daughter, Michelle. Michelle is a media guru. That's her wheelhouse and a Skype and, and zoom and, and, you know, websites and, oh my gosh, you're killing me, small. I mean, it is, it is like, and she just goes, yeah, we'll do this. And it's like, and off she goes. And, and she really, and she's a writer and, and, and she, she really has done a great job of throwing this together and, and making her dad look good, right? Yeah. Well, that's what, that's what, that's what families for. So, you know, and now you're, now you're, now you're a genius with all this stuff. Now you, you can understand how to build, that's my wheelhouse, my wheelhouse building out a brand, understanding social media. That's what I do, right? Yeah. I don't envy your job. Yeah, it's, it listen, you have to stay on top of this stuff. This is the new media. You got to figure out how to, how to reach those people and, and they're all on social now. That's where they get news. That's where they get, well, you know, that's, that's another conversation, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I mean, where, where people actually go to get news on the name people trust, you know, that unbiased social media, a little bit more from those third parties, opposed to like those left-leaning, right-leaning outlets, right? That's, that's what, that, that, those are the people that causes, cause the issues in the first place, which is, and, and I think that, I think that your, genuineness that comes through also helps people parse through some of the fog that goes on. You know, I think that people that are trying to help people that are genuine that, that really are, are, are original in, in trying to move, move the ball forward, people recognize that. And eventually, I think, and that's my optimistic side. I think, I think that saves the day. I think that finally will win the day. And, and hopefully, that's what occurs with all this. So, and, and I'm optimistic with that. So, agree. I agree. Okay, so if you, if you closing questions, just tee up your experience. As you've gone through this, as you've gone through this journey in, in your life, what are, are you curious about now in the world of medicine and the world of pharmacology? What are you researching? It could be a certain group, like an advocacy group. You mentioned a few of them before, but what's on top of your mind right now that sort of knew that people should learn about? Well, I think, I think one of the fascinating things, and this is just, and, and, and I'll join you in this, this late person's view, because this is, I'm not a, you know, physician, and I'm not a pharmacist, you know, it's just that I spent so many years in it. But, but one of the fascinating things is that, you know, discovery is made by mistakes. And people learn from their failures more than their successes. And I think that, especially in virology and immunology, that everybody's pushing so hard, I just have this really positive feeling that will discover something, maybe to help cancer patients as well. And I think that that's, if there's something that, you know, maybe people pay attention to what occurs in, in the area of immunology and, and all that in medicine. I think that's a fascinating new, new frontier that they're pushing. And hopefully something is discovered that helps boost the immune system and in humans to help in other medical conditions, other than just the coronavirus. Who have the most influential or supportive people been during your journey and why? Oh my gosh. Obviously, my family, my kids, my brother. And, and of all things, my ex, she's been really supportive. My friends, and, and, and in Ohio, as well as my friends that I lived, I lived 10 years in Q.S. And so all my friends down there, I've been really supportive. And I actually find that, that, I get, I get hate mail, I get crap like everybody else does, that the majority of people are really positive and really very supportive. And, you know, it's been a really good, feel good journey with that. That's a wonderful thing. I can't tell you how, you know, and, you know, most people at my age would turn around and go, oh, you're going to retire. No, I'm not. I'm just getting started again, right? I love it. Rick, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. What are, what are some of the resources that have helped you along the way? Things that could have kept you motivated, educated you, inspired you. I'm wondering if there's, like, even like books or people that you, that you tried to learn from or, or consume during this journey. There is a book that I, I read, and it's a Doris Goodman Currents, I think, is the author. And it's a team of rivals. And just amazing. It was during the Civil War. It was Lincoln's cabinet. And they were, they were enemies. She talks, it's a great book. And, and, and all this strife and all this, these problems. And he winds up picking people based on their ability, not on their political, what their political side is. He, he, he picked people for the cabinet that were like really good at these certain spots. And a lot of times the cabinet members fought amongst themselves. And he would sit in on this. But it was an amazing book that, that through all this strife of the Civil War, how they came through that. And it was, it was, you know, he gives you hope, doesn't it? I like, I, I, I, I, I understand now when, when we start, when we talk even more, you're, you're, you're an incredible optimist. And I appreciate that because I don't think, I don't think somebody who didn't have that amount of optimism could have gone through what you did to be quite honest and come out okay. I think that probably right. Yeah. That's a, congratulations on that. Seriously. It's very impressive because you, you are by far the most glass half full person I've ever met after all this stuff. But it's very good. And I think that, you know, hopefully another lesson, an underlying and unspoken lesson is, listen, it does end up being okay at the end of the day. And you sort of champion that and live that. Um, a lesson that you would tell your younger self after going through this. Don't give up. Never, ever, give up. If there's one thing, don't give up. If you, if you're passionate about something, you love something, this is something that you feel inside. This is a calling. This is what you need to do. Whatever that is, if you're a pipe fitter, if you're a writer, if, if, whatever it is, if you have, look at in yourself first to look in yourself to see who you are and find those passions. And when you find that passion, don't give it up for anything. I love that. And last question, um, what does success mean to you? Success, success earlier in life meant something completely different. Success, success now to me, it has a lot less in material items. Success now is relationships and loved ones. And how do you, how do you put money and dividends in relationships to get those dividends and, and rewards back? And I think it has more to do with that in my life and giving back to other people to help other people. And I, and I think that it really is, I'm defined more by that. And so I went through this whole transition that just changed my viewpoint of what's really important in life. Yeah. And I think that's, and I based my success in that, that how can I, how can I work with, with different patient advocacy groups? And how can I, I can do that, you know, and I think that that has, um, Michelle Rome, um, previously healthy, um, an article and a documentary on type one, uh, children with diabetes that wind up going into, uh, commas and, and, and, and she won a webbie award with it. And, you know, and she'll say that her dad tells her, just don't give up. And through all that, you wind up, you wind up just seeing that, you know, and I, and one of the comments I made my son is that, when you just don't give up and you, and you follow those passions, when you break through, when you finally break through, you're over the fence and you look around and you're the only one there. You're the only one because everybody else gave up. I think that's strong. Yeah. Very good. Um, and then most importantly, uh, where can people connect with you online? Um, where can people find the book? Um, what are those, uh, domains? Sure. Uh, BruceBoys.com and it's, uh, voice is spelled, uh, B-O-I-S-E, um, dot com. And you go, that's my website. And that pokes you right up to Amazon. And Amazon will take you to, to the book. Um, and then I might add on the website, there's all this other information about patient advocacy groups as well. That's all for today. Thanks again for joining me on another episode of the Success Story podcast. You can download or stream this podcast wherever podcasts are available, including iTunes, Spotify, Google, Stitcher, iHeartRadio, and many others. You can also watch this podcast on YouTube. If you haven't already, please subscribe and share this podcast with your friends, family, co-workers, and peers. Please leave us a rating on iTunes. It takes about 30 seconds as it allows other people to find our podcast and let's our amazing guests reach even more people with their message. And remember, any rating is fine as long as it contains five stars. I'm Scott Clary from the Success Story podcast, signing off.