Kurt Sowers - President & Founder of SOCO Group | From Solopreneur to Construction Magnate

Welcome to success story, the most useful podcast in the world. I'm your host, Scott D. Clary. The success story podcast is part of the Blue Wire podcast network as well as the HubSpot podcast network. HubSpot podcast network has other great podcasts like marketing made simple hosted by Dr. J.J. Peterson. Now marketing made simple brings you practical tips to make your marketing easy and more importantly make it work. If you like any of these topics, you definitely want to go check out the show, how to write and deliver a captivating speech, how to market yourself into a new job, how design can help and also hurt your revenue, creating a social media ad strategy that actually works. If these topics resonate with you, go check out marketing made simple wherever you get your podcast. Today my guest is Kurt Sowers. Kurt is the president and founder of SoCo Group. Now SoCo Group is a general contracting firm that offers design and build services specific to commercial upfit and interiors. Now Mr. Sowers currently holds his general contractors license in the state of North Carolina and a set site on expanding his licensing across the southeastern states. Prior to starting SoCo Group, Kurt worked professionally in the construction industry as a construction manager and project superintendent. During his tenure in the industry, Kurt has directly overseen $25 million of new construction. Now, although building could be considered the embodiment of his persona, Kurt's entrepreneurial aspirations are not limited to construction. Kurt is currently creating the fashion brand Van Oer's with his aesthetically inspired and long term friend William. Additionally, Kurt continues to pave the road for passion projects in the entertainment industry and has an overarching theme and vision for this platform. So we spoke about a variety of different topics. We spoke about the world of construction and development, something that Kurt is incredibly passionate about. We spoke about the steps an entrepreneur should take when starting a company from scratch. We spoke about how to make the move from sole entrepreneur to business owner, how to hire, how to train, how to find the best talent, how to make yourself redundant. We spoke about managing work, life, professional, personal, public spotlight, and then we spoke about how to leverage your personal brand for business success. So a lot of personal branding, a lot of personal branding lessons, a lot of entrepreneurial lessons, a lot of business owner lessons. Of course, Kurt is in construction, but the lessons that you can learn from his journey are applicable to any industry, any category. I hope you enjoy. Bringing it back. So I guess I kind of have this ideology or this idea that I think people should, you should do what you were inspired to do as a kid, as a child, right? So it sounds dumb, but for me, I love Legos, I love building shit. So I was just like, all right, well, and then in my teenage years, and then in college, I worked as a handyman, I built furniture, worked in and out almost every trade in the construction industry, and it was always what kind of came natural to me. I was good at it. So then I veered away from that for a little while, and then in college, too, I studied construction management and civil engineering technology. So very educated on the science of construction, but I definitely, I steered away from it, and I wanted to be like, I always thought I was like, I'll be a businessman as a kid, I don't know what a businessman was, right? And then as I got older, I realized I was like, this is only then you're actually like really good at and are inspired by, I get inspired by construction and the industry in itself. So that's kind of why I've stuck with it, I guess. So yeah, you have these aspirations as a kid, and you have some idea of actually what lights are fire, but I think that a lot of people, when they're coming in, so walk me through even in high school, when did you start working in this? When did you start figuring like, shit, I'm actually good at this, or there's something that you wanted to chest that was like high school, it was a college. Yeah, it was college, just out necessity. I mean, I put myself through college, so I was working at Car Wash, and then a friend of my dad was a handyman, a handyman business. So I apprenticed him pretty much all through college. And that's where I kind of cut my teeth as far as working in different trades, because we did it all, mechanical, electrical, plumbing, framing, carpentry, you know, so I kind of did my hands in all the different divisions of construction, and I just kind of had an act for it. And like I said, I enjoyed it. So from there, I was doing in college, I was studying business, and I was a terrible student, like terrible student. So I decided, it's like, all right, let's change pace, and I switched over to construction management, and I found that I actually enjoyed learning about that. So that's kind of what propelled me, I think, into this direction. And then like, what does construction management mean? Yeah, broad term, right? But construction management, construction is actually very, it's a very scientific industry, and you cover a lot of different topics and disciplines, and so construction management teaches you about the different divisions, gives you a little bit of background, you know, structural engineering, and kind of the, you know, the components that go into construction or into building. And then as far as the management side of it, which I'm terrible at, to be honest, like when I was working, I worked for a GC for years, and I was a construction manager at first. I was terrible at, I'm a terrible project manager, but what I found that was really good at, then I moved into a site superintendent, I was a great superintendent, because that was when I was in the field, run the crews, getting shit built, you know, hands on. So that's when I really started to, I think, excel in the industry when I became a site superintendent. But like, when you're a site super, like that's still like, if you start your own business, like then you have to figure out the business side of it, which is like, it's a mother fuck, like it's not easy, right? So that's why a lot of people get stuck. And when people try, like, they're passionate about something and they start, and they want to start something, and they want to figure out a way to, they're working for something like, they're like, oh yeah, I could totally do that. No problem. I could do what, like, my boss's boss's boss on the founders company could do, and they try it. And it's like, not so easy. It's not at all. It's, I mean, I was just telling my friends earlier, I'm a, I'm a terrible businessman, but what I am good at, I'm good at building, and I'm good at the relationships side of it. So I'm good at getting people to trust me, to contract with me. However, the business side is, I'm definitely still working through that right now. And that is, it's, you know, it's tough, tough figuring out the business side of things. I mean, the back of house, keeping up with all your paperwork. There's a ton of paperwork that goes into construction. So, so if you start, okay, say you want to start into your own business and construction. So, like, traditional entrepreneur, I'm just thinking, like you can bootstrap this, you build your own company with the money you saved up, or you go raise my, so what did you do to, like, after start your own company? I had nowhere near enough money to start my own company. It was kind of, I started my company out of, wait, how much money, okay, how much money were you making as a GC, like before you pivot it? So like, you're still working for somebody. How much money can you make there? I was making about 95 as a superintendent for commercial GC. Okay, cool. That was my good money. And then when the pandemic started, actually, I, I've been thinking about branching out of my own. Okay, so it was, it was, it was in my back of my head. I've been working at that point as a superintendent for, you know, like six plus years, you know, gained a lot of experience. I, I knew that I was, I mean, a site superintendent is probably the most important person on a job. They're the one who, who, who gets shit done, right? So I knew that my skill set that I could take that, um, and be successful at it, if I wanted to on my own. So when the pandemic hit, I was working for a company and they asked to furlough me. We were doing like commercial tire centers. I did a lot of fast food restaurants. So all their contracts dried up right when the pandemic hit. And I was like, oh, that's a furlough me. I was like, man, this is, it was like the kick I needed, right? Yeah. But I only had, it's embarrassing to say, like, I'm just, I only had like 15 K in the bank to start, yeah, yeah, to start my own, like liquid cash to start my own company. And that's including like your rent, your food, like cost of living. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I've just, and I just dug in and did it. And, I don't know how, but everything worked out. It was the relationships I had built throughout the years of being a super. Yeah. It was easy. I reached out to people I had built for developers and stuff, but I was working for other GCs. And everybody was like, everybody fed me work. Everybody was happy to work with me. I was like, hey, look, just getting started, you know, do a little bit cheaper. This that. And yeah, I mean, I didn't really need or want anything for that first year. I had plenty of business. And so like when you first sat on your own, like, what are the jobs you're taking? You're doing the jobs like yourself? No, no. So I'm a true general contractor. So I subcontracted out everything. I don't self-perform anything. I have super vision on it. And I might do a little bit of handyman stuff at the end of a project, like touch up and stuff. But no, so I, so construction is broken out across 52 different divisions. And you've had, yeah, for, for larger scale. So what, what I'm doing now, I'm mainly doing commercial interiors. So I'm only dealing with, you know, maybe 12 different divisions. If that, I mean, usually I have about seven or eight subcontractors on a job. So I subcontract out every component of the job to different subcontractors. And then I manage them, you know, scope them out, supervise them, take it to the finish line. Yeah, but so if you're doing this, like you're trying to, so when you find your next project, like what are the things that you were thinking about when you first started, like to find your first project? So what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to like take like the experience that you have. Yeah. Somebody's like in this field right now. Yeah. What's the first action item they do? Like the first month, are you reaching out to all your, you're reaching out to all your contacts? Yeah. Are you, are you, like, is there no issue with you taking business away from like the people that you already know? Well, that was, I said, I wasn't taking business away from the part where we were because they were, they were much larger. So when I started off, I was just doing little renovations and additions, residential stuff. As I was trying to formulate my plan of like what kind of general contractor do I want to be? And that took me a while to figure out. At first, I was like, well, maybe I can, so rewind a little bit. When I first became a super, I was building townhouses. So I built 20 different townhouses in around Charlotte. I got pretty good at that. So when I branched out of my own, and then from that, I moved into commercial as a super, which I love. I love the commercial side, but it takes a lot of bankroll to run a commercial general contractor. I love it raising money. Yeah, I've got to figure all that. Okay. It's just, I mean, honestly, it's a, we can get to that, but it's just a balancing act. It's, you know, you are a GC at times, you act as a bank. So it's, it's billing ahead to the owner. And then you get that money, and then that money passes straight through to the subcontractor. And then, you know, you make your margin on top. But a lot of times, I mean, I won't pay myself till the end of a project, just because I got to keep, you know, enough money in the account to keep the jobs flowing. So, um, but you know, back up, so when I was a super building townhomes, that's what I thought initially when I started my company, I was like, well, I'll just do residential. No, I learned my lesson quick. That residential, it's, it's so personal for the client, you know, they're, they're living in that house. They have a timeline that they have to meet. The budget is always dicey, you know, they're always trying to cut corners, save money. It's just, it's a headache, especially the way I'm set up, um, to try to run a residential general contract company, at least as a small company, right? So then after doing a couple of residential jobs that first year, I decided that I'm going to focus on just commercial interiors. No, nothing structural. If I can avoid structural, I will, just rely on what that means. So commercial interiors commercial outfits. So you have a lot of developers, um, especially in the city like Charlotte, very new city, right? So developers come in, they'll build build strip malls with the build skyscrapers and that's it. They usually just do the shell and then different GCs because, because then they're leasing those spaces out, right? So whoever they lease it out through a restaurant or an office, whatever, then they bring in their GC to do the outfit. So that's, that's the, that's the market that I'm targeting right now. Just commercial interiors commercial outfits. Cause I just think it's a, it's a, it's a reliable business model and it also, it's, it's what I can handle right now is building a small business, you know, with, with minimizing my risk and liability. Because if you go into one of these places, like, so, like even like the cash flow, you're just describing, like you don't have a lot of margin for error. Like you have a lot of room for error on these deals. So like you're selling the service, you're selling yourself, you close the deal. You have to subcontract all these other subcontracts. You have to bring them into the deal. They finished the work. I'm assuming when you're first starting out, you can't work on that many projects. No, I mean, I'm, I'm, I've got four right now and I'm stretched in. Yeah. So there's a lot. It's a lot. Yeah. And then like when you're, when you're doing this stuff, like you're a small business owner at this point, like what's the, what's the worst thing it could possibly happen? How do you mitigate or protect against that when you're trying to do these jobs? So the worst thing in general contracting is the estimating, the initial project cost. There's no, there's no science to it. I mean, there's a bit of a science to it, right? The way you estimate is you, you break everything down into the smallest margin possible or the smallest unit possible. And then you apply a price point to it. And then you build out your estimate, you know, so say for, for flooring or paying, you break out flooring into, you know, square foot. And then you can apply a X per square foot or per brick. You break it out per brick. So it's, it is, it is a bit of a science. However, it's never accurate because you always have, um, incidentals and or the cost of materials. As you probably know, it's just fluctuating. So I'm going to ask you, like, this is like not even where we're at right now, but I'm going to talk about like COVID and supply chain and like the shit show that the world just gone through and how you navigated that because like, well, keep finishing your thought, but like, not only did you like start, you had 15,000 bucks. Yeah. You started a business. It's like the worst time to ever start the worst time. Nobody wants to like, like forget, like, you're trying to like be like a GC and like all these like little residential areas to start. Like nobody wants you even walking into their home. Yeah. Probably let alone. I know. So you figure out how you manage that. But yeah, it really the only, even if you want to call it, I don't even consider myself successful. Yeah. I mean, I guess I built a business out of out of nothing, but as far as the monetary side, I'm only now becoming successful. But where I found success that first year was completely dependent on, um, the relationships I had built. I'm a good, like, I'm a relationship guy. Lesson right there. Yeah. I'm like, if I see value in in a relationship or even if I don't, I treat people very well, I respect people and I try to, if I do see potential value in a person or relationship, I definitely make it a point to follow up on that relationship, you know, to just just keep up with that person or that business and just, you know, establish some sort of a relationship. And because of that, because of, I guess, my way with people, that, that led me to be able to be successful. Or at least to be able to keep business coming in. Yeah. So, okay. So you had business coming in, but you also had to deal with like mass, like the problems you dealt with when you were starting this, when problems that like a GC two years ago would not have had. Yeah. So you have supply chain issues, which, in fact, your project time, like time to completion, you have like tons of like all these costs, associated. So like the first deal you worked on the first few, what was the like the absolute worst shit that happened that you had to figure out? So the, and also just like the general climate of like supply chain, how it impacted you. Yeah. It's not even just supply chain and material costs. And then it's also labor. The labor is so difficult, especially on the residential side, it is another reason why I backed away from it because it felt as, it felt as the labor pull on the residential side were like rookies. You know, these are, these are people, even if they were established subcontractor, their labor pool was still, they were still getting like new guys. And you know, they'll claim they're a painter, but they were, you know, a carpenter of the day before. And it's like, so it was just been very difficult to navigate the labor pool. So there's not, there's not people, there's nothing sexy about blue collar, right? So the, the labor pool for the construction industry is getting smaller and smaller. I mean, and that's why we have a lot of trades being filled by, you know, Latinos or Mexicans because they're willing, they love blue collar. They love it. That's a good day's work for them. They enjoy it. But I think our society has taught, you know, most American-born people, American-born men grow up in a society where blue collar is not sexy. So they're not aspiring to go be a tradesman or being electrician, a plumber, you know. And like idiots, they're going to work for like some 70K, your job for the next 40 years. And they can be making 120 as a plumber, you know? Or they can make a shift. I know, I know GC's, like I'm not saying it's easy work. I've, I've spilt them to a lot of them. And like they make bank, but like it's tough work. Yeah. Because I think a lot of them don't know how to scale up a business. So they work, they get to where you are, or even less than. They're not working on four projects at that time. They're working on one project at a time. And it's just them. And I remember talking to one guy. He was like, yeah, like, you know, I could, I could never have to work again, but like I can't because like my whole body's broken from doing the work that I'm doing. That's like 30 years. I mean, it's true, man. That's another thing. It is, it is a tough industry. And there's so many other ways, other, if you're a smart man or woman, there's so many other ways to make that money. In other ways, right? You don't have to work the hours that you do. I mean, general contracting, it's like, it's a constant. It never stops. Literally, it's, it's can be seven days a week. A lot of the stuff I'm doing right now, since we're in commercial interiors, we're working in like medical spaces, stuff. So we have to work after hours. So I mean, I have guys working until midnight on some jobs. So it's a business that really doesn't sleep. So it's long hours. It's exhausting. There's a reason why you see like old GCs that are all gray and grumpy. Yeah, for good reason. It's, it's, it's toss. So you, so you, you got to figure out how to get out of, you have to figure out how to get out of the actual working in the business. Yeah. Okay. So you figured out like, actually, you have a ton of problems. I don't even know how you solve for any of them. So you have supply chain issues. You have contractor issues and like labor issues. You have like cost of goods issue costs all over the place. So then how do you actually fix any of this stuff? So what did you actually do to like get the right people, make sure the product is done on time and find stuff that wasn't way over price or did you not? And you just, it's, it's a constant game, especially lately of pivoting. So, so construction in the first place is a never ending game of solving problems. It's, it's no matter how well you have it planned out, something's going to happen during the day and you're going to have to solve that problem. So that's always a constant with construction. But with all these added, all these external factors, now that we have attributing to it like the supply chain, labor shortages, material costs all over the place, it just makes it that much more difficult. So yeah, you have to constantly pivot and also, and this is a part that I actually, I lack is communicating with the owners and or banks. So on residential, you know, usually dealing with owners, but on commercial dealing with owners slash banks, right? Communicating all of these issues. And that's ahead of time. Or as are happening. So, so me, I like to be like, okay, well, fuck, I'll solve it, you know, whatever, try to solve it. And I don't communicate all these things to them. So then when they see, you know, a week delay, they don't understand that I've had to pivot for three days just to get us back on track. You know, so I think that's the biggest lesson that I'm learning is communicating these things to the owners, to the banks. That way, they are in understanding of it. And then when you hit them with a change order, you can get paid on that change order and they're not fighting you for it. I just want to take a second to thank the sponsor of today's episode HubSpot. Now, what words come to mind when you think about entrepreneurship? 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And you actually said, like at the beginning, you're like, we're not great at business school. You were like, not having it. So, how did you solve this? What did you do differently that is allowing you to be successful now? Honestly, I don't know if I have solved it. No, you're solving it. Yeah, it's always learning, always figuring it out. But you're doing something right. I think where I find my success is that I get up every day and I work. So, I know how to build. So, when I don't have the solution to maybe some of the business stuff, I'm just like, I'm going to go to work. And I just stay on the grind and keep pushing along the project. So, I think that is, I'm still trying to figure out how to be a better businessman, but I'm finding success because I at least get up and I get the job done and I just keep moving things along. Even if I'm taking, even if I'm, you know, getting hurt maybe on some of the costs, I might not be getting out. Or yeah, or yeah, or I'm grinding. I'm not paying myself for the hours. I'm putting in, but at least I'm keeping things moving along. And, and I guess I'm just trying to figure out as I go and like, look, if I just keep getting up every morning and I keep working out, I keep chipping away at daily, then, you know, I'll figure out the other stuff. Which I think is like, that's like the X factor and like any startup, small business. Like, it's never going to be 100%. Yeah. But if like the entrepreneur is like willing to like figure the shit out and go through it, like that's what differentiates. And I think that I think that one of the issues people have is they like become a business owner and they either build themselves a job. And then that sucks. Or they try and remove themselves too quickly without understanding all the components of the business when it's not functioning right. Yeah. Like, there's this point where you self to work in it. But then you got to figure out a way to scale yourself. Yeah. Did you have you like hired out people? Because you just mentioned you're just starting to be profitable now. Yeah. So what's your, so what's your, you know, the past two years, not the ages, I'm sort of business. Yeah. But you, you started to hire and start to so I still, I still manage. I had a superintendent working for me for a little while. And then I have a girl helped me in the office paying care of some of the receivables and payables. Super was your first big hire. Super was the first big hire. How to go. It went well. But then he left me to go back to work for himself as a handyman. Yeah. So it was great. Yeah. It was like he was covering some some of the residential stuff I still had going. He was covering those for me. And then I, I have a hard time. The next big step is hiring a full time super to manage a commercial projects for me because right now I'm in the field all day. And if I'm not in the field, I'm on the phone all day with my sub. So I still supervise all my commercial projects. I mean, I'm, I'm very hands on. And only, I mean, I can, I can, I'm now I can afford to bring somebody on. But it's also I got, I don't know how to, I need to hire somebody that's really good at it already. And then maybe just trust them to do it or, you know, or have to train somebody. So that's going to be like a difficult step for me. That's going to ask me when you, when you like, so again, small business owner hiring, like super vertical role for the first super vertical. Obviously, you don't have it down to like a perfect size. But what are the things like people should look out for? Somebody's hiring that first, like a hire. What made you pick this, this super honestly, because he was just a young kid who I thought was, you know, influential and that I could influence him rather. And kind of, you know, curate him how I wanted, like, like teachability. Yes. Yes. Very. He was younger. He was ambitious one again in the industry. But now I'm realizing that my next hire for a super will be, I'm going to steal, you know, a 45 year old man that's been doing this for another company for years. I'm going to pay him what he needs to get paid. And he's going to do it better than I could. Okay. So if you're going to make that kind of hire, you need money and let's talk about, let's talk about cash flow, let's talk about profitability. So you can be as specific or as ambiguous as you want. Some people are talking numbers. But I'm still curious, like, even percentages, like, how did you, what, you closed one project out and they're working on four. Why only two years later, you're starting to be profitable? I guess, it's something I wasn't. Did you pay, did you pay yourself? I paid myself. Okay. Yeah. So I pay myself. So I guess that's it. That was profitable. But you know, after paying myself, my expenses, I just, I just left money in the company because as I said before, a GC is like a bank, you, you were always having to float money. And a lot of times, this is where I need to get better on the business side. You know, a lot of times, I'm, I'm not getting paid from the owner 30, 45 days after I bill. But all my guys, they want to get paid on Friday, all my subcontractors. And that's, and that's the reason why, like, that's why the good ones, that's how I keep them showing up because I pay them on Friday. So I'm having to float a lot of cash a lot of times. I mean, I gotta keep my guys paid because they do good work for me. And, you know, I got to respect them and they need to get paid. And that's so you like, like, when you do this kind of business, you have like massive cash flow, which I'm assuming if that's the case, because you have like a net 30 or a net 60 on the owner paying. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So, yeah, so I'll be floating. So maybe I'll invoice, you know, take like this barber shop. I just finished one of my invoices. It was a smaller job right? The whole job was only like 125k. But, you know, I sent a 30,000 dollar invoice. Yeah. I wouldn't get paid. That one was actually had to go through the bank, had to go through the developer then to the bank. By the time I got my money, it was 30, 45 days in the rear. Yeah. I'm talking about that invoice, but I'm paying all my guys every week. So, so I'm having to float that 35k for just on that job. And like, would you, if you had to redo it, would you like go raise money, take it alone, would you do it different? Um, it would, it would make things, it would make things easier, honestly. And that's, um, I'm getting to the point where I'm thinking about, you know, should I, should I, if I want to scale, right? I need good help. Yeah. So if I'm going to afford a good super that's been doing this for 20 plus years, right? I'm going to need to pay him 100k or more. So I'm at that point. I'm like, do I, you know, do I go get alone to hire a guy for six months? And then he can kill these commercial projects for me while I go out and get more business and while, you know, while you build the business. So that's, that's kind of where I'm at right now. What do you think? I mean, I could, I could float it, but then I put myself in a pinch. It's like I should use somebody else's money, right? And then I can recoup it per the job because anybody on the job should get paid by the job, right? Like the super is expense should be on that job. So, but again, it's, it's the cash flow thing. Um, what was like the, the biggest, like shit hit the fan moment, you're in your entrepreneurial journey where those things like did not work out? Should have been honestly, every day or not. I mean, shit is a fan frequently, but how's that? I've been pretty fortunate thus far. I, you know, anytime I think that I might, oh my gosh, am I going to have a cash flow issue? It just has worked out for me. So I don't know, maybe I've just been blessed, been fortunate, blessed, fortunate, hard working too. I think, who do you like, when you, when you're trying to like learn this now, where do you go to learn and sort of like upscale yourself? Like you're trying to figure all this shit out. So what's your strategy? I just study, I study other companies, I study people. Yeah. Um, you know, the guy who brought me really into the professional construction industry, my mentor of sorts, he wasn't really great mentor, but he was a great guy to study. Like he was a gunslinger. This guy was, you know, he was always bringing in deals, always making it happen. And then he, he had the ability to then, you know, come through with it. He would, he was like a developer slash builder. He's like a restaurant owner. He's got his hands a little bit of everything. However, you know, if he struck up a deal, he would then find a way to get it done, or he would build it. So studying him a bit kind of just gave me the inspiration that, because I knew talking him, he didn't always have the answers, but he was like, it's not rocket science. We'll figure it out. And it's not nothing, nothing we do in construction. It's not rocket science. You can, you can figure it out. But I think a lot of it's just getting, getting the deal on the table and then figuring out how to get it done. So like, when you say that, though, like, then you're saying one of the most important skills, which I think I agree with his sales, yeah, you got to sell yourself. I'm going to sell yourself not soft. So you like, you accomplish that by having great network. You're still going out and closing deals right now. Yeah. How do you, how do you bring a new business? I haven't even, so that's one of the reasons why I couldn't find anything. I mean, I, I literally, I don't, I haven't even marketed it. So I didn't even tell most of my friends, I started my company for the first year. I didn't want it because I was afraid to fail. It's like, I can possibly send it to you. Yeah. I don't want to be like, oh, like, I'll start this journal contract company. And then six months later, it'd be back working as a superintendent. So I didn't, I didn't tell anybody because I was really afraid to fail. And then as I build it, I just don't really want to show it off until I'm, I'm super proud of it. And I'm still just, you know, I'm still in it. Like I'm still describing. I think, I think you should show it off more, man. I think, well, I think, you know, like the whole, the whole building of personal brand, like, yeah, you can't convince me that's not the way to do business. Yeah. Like, that's how, like, this show happened, like, build the personal brand, like, I go crazy on social, like, you know, solve, like, content marketing. Um, I haven't even had the exposure you have. And like, that's giving me, like, speaking opportunities and like, incredible network. And like, non-stop, it, like, job offers, investment into the company I'm working at. Like, it's like, insane. Like, when it's funny, like, when you have a name out there, even if people don't really know who you are, just because you're putting yourself out there, they, like, they learn to trust who you are, without ever meeting you, right? Yeah. Like, I think you got to double down on this shit. You got to ride this wave. You got to build out the personal brand. Yeah. But your, your companies out there now, it's out there. And I think you're, I think you're very right. And I've, I've been very reticent to do that because again, it's my, it's my fear of, of, my fear of failure and fear of, you know, it's funny that even did, did that show because I, I don't, I don't know, like, I don't love from your personality. Very now talking to you for like, whatever, like 30 minutes, I'm like, there's no way this guy is looking to, you know, be in the limelight. Exactly. It's very, like, I like it, but I don't like it because I do like to keep things very, like, close to the chest as far as, you know, like, what I do for living in. And I don't, I don't love, it's almost like with the show I'd put a facade on, right? Put a facade on. This is what I want the world to see. I don't really let people see the real, you know, what I actually do. And so, I don't know, I'm still still figuring out what the business, but you're right. I do need to dive into the self exposure or double down on, on myself a little bit and build, build my brand, build the company brand, use the tools that I have available. I mean, no, I would argue that very few other GCs, if not, and like, or maybe none, whatever have had that ability to have that exposure at the level that you have. At this age, I think it's just a matter of like, how do you get over that and pause for syndrome? Because you're dealing with it right now, 100%, like every entrepreneur in the world has that every entrepreneur. And I actually think that, like, when I work with like a lot of entrepreneurs, not in construction, but like, I mean, building something from scratch is the same shit. It's a lot of, a lot of, it's tough. Like, it's tough and you have to put yourself out there and your friends and your family big. This guy's crazy. Like, why, you know, like, I think that when you put yourself out there, like, even like you're doing this show, you're like, you're laying like everything that you've done on the line. And I think that it holds you accountable, which I think is like what a good mentor should do. I think that when you like commit to something in public, I think it forces you to actually, like, do it. Like, you, like, what's to say? You burn the boats or burn the ships or whatever, like, burn the, whatever it is. Yeah, no, that's that's so true. And that's, I've actually used that strategy with myself. If, if I do tell people about something that I haven't done yet, it's almost like I'm telling them because that holds me accountable. I'm like, well, I better fucking do it now. You got it. You got it. You're like, so this guy, I don't care if this guy is successful, but at least he's like, you know, like, if you put yourself out there, you're going to do something like you can't be a liar. You can't, you know, not be a liar, especially. Yeah. So if you have any pride in yourself as a man, I mean, you got to live up to the expectations you set for yourself. But, but he went on this show and like, you're right. This is not your personality at all going on this show. But now you can actually do it. You can do it like with yourself, like with your true personality. Like when you put yourself out there now, like you turn yourself into like a content marketing machine, like you're going to get non-stop business. Yeah. But then you don't have to feel like you're putting on this facade or this face or whatever you're talking about. Like what we're talking about now is that what you're actually passionate about. Yeah. Like none of this is none of this is BS is what you actually care about. And this is like, this is your like 110% of your life. So you just turn like this into like your your daily. And then I think that would attract business and that would actually give you like a huge amount of success. Yeah. And probably expedite your growth much quicker. Yeah. Because now you think about all the different parts of the business that like a strong personal brand accomplish touches. Like, yeah, maybe you have more exposure on social, but like also you'll have a better time landing projects. Because like now people will want to associate with your firm. You'll have a probably an easier time attracting talent too. You're probably going to get for sure. You just have people that want to work with you just like be in your sphere, right? Like yeah. So I think like you double down on that. Yeah. You know, I mean, you're right. You're right. And I guess I've been just hesitant to do so because I want I guess I guess I'm I mean, it is like through only two years and and instead the first year of it, I was just trying to figure out where I wanted the company to go. You know, it's trying to figure out how to stay in residence. I stay in commercial. So I think I just want it to be, you know, I want to have a solid vision, which I do now finally have a solid vision of the company, what I want the company to be, where I want it to go. So now that I have that, I need to start capitalizing on some of the things that you're talking about. So how do you? Okay. So without without the personal branding stuff, that's cool. But how do you scale up? So where do you take it from here? So you have four projects now, trying to hire super somebody's at this stage. Yeah. And in their GC life or their GC business, how do you scale up? I mean, I can't do it without I can't do without help. And so I got to get the right help and or partnerships. So and that's kind of like three of the biggest projects. I mean, I know actually how do you have? I should have six current projects going on, but two are closing out. So I got four, but three of those are I've got partners with them. And I'm acting almost as a subcontractor to them, but I'm building out the whole jobs for them. And those have gone really smoothly because we all know our role and we rely on, you know, one another to perform it. So I think if I'm to scale it, I just I've got to find the right people, you know, put them in their silo. They do what they need to do to run the company. And then I can continue to float 10,000 feet. Yeah. What's your vision? Like what you want to take this? I would love to be a I would love to do stick with the commercial materials commercial outfits. As I said, I think it's a really good business model for a GC. It's a safe business model but I would love to be, you know, multi-state. I'd love to be the go-to guy for certain restaurants and or businesses that I'm their guy when they're opening up in a new city. Yeah, I'm the guy that comes and does the relationship, all relationship, all relationship. Is there like like like like regulatory thing you got to think about when you switch states and industry? Just applications. So you have reciprocity in a lot of states with with your North Carolina GC license your reciprocity in a lot but you have to apply for it and then take sometimes you got to take a small exam. That's it. And then you can just play. Except for up north it's a little more difficult up there. I want to just so now I want like general like entrepreneurship advice people that are starting out. So what is you know if you're talking to a new entrepreneur like what's your best advice for somebody who's starting something from scratch? I guess you I think to be successful in anything, right? I mean, you know, no, no one is favorable if you know not what support you sell. So you have to have a vision, right? And you have to then tackle that and become good at what you do. So figure out what it is that you want to do and then master that skill, right? You have to have a you have to a vision in mind and then you got to tackle it. And then from there, I think, I mean, nothing as an entrepreneur, nothing gets around just hard work. Even when you don't have the answers, don't know what to do. Just get to work because it's better than it's better than sitting there in your thoughts and just you know, spinning your wheels. Just get to work and get something done for me at least. I've found from at least getting something done. If I'm from knocking off tasks during the day, I feel productive and then things kind of fall into place. And then if you're going to talk about personality traits, what are the personality traits that have made you the most successful? So I think that one of the most important things if you're going to be an entrepreneur, I mean, take this with a grain of salt, like I said, I'm owning an entrepreneur for two years now. Okay. Actually, that's not that's a lie. I had a detailing company in college, but another thing you never told anybody. Yeah, never. Yeah, never told anybody. I don't tell people lots of, but I think to be successful entrepreneur, you have to be likable and trustworthy. So people want to do business with people that they know, like, and trust. So you have to win people over. You got to get in front of them first of all, so that they know you. And then you got to get them to like you. How do you get them to like you? I mean, me, I found like I'm a pretty humorous guy, like sharing a laugh with somebody. I think it's probably one of the best way to build a bond with somebody. And then you got to get them to trust you. So and that's, you know, a whole another issue. I mean, you just have to be a stand up person to get people to trust you, right? If you have you like, as you know, you build your network and like it's a lot of like people connections. It's happened to me before. It's happened to a lot of people that I know, but have you been screwed by people like people that have just like totally double crossed you? Like how have you solved for that? Ah, it definitely honestly more so when when I was working for other people, I just always felt undervalued and or underpaid or you know, wasn't getting the bonuses that I should have been getting or what we negotiated. But honestly, as I start my own company, everybody has been pretty good. I mean, definitely I've gotten paid late on stuff, but everyone's been pretty good. I haven't got screwed over by anybody. But I think that's also because I'm careful about who I do contract with. I mean, I don't enter into any deal randomly. Every every deal that comes my way is from a contact, you know, it's it's because they know me or know me from somebody else. It's it's I'm not out there shopping, you know, just shopping for deals. And I think that's where people get get screwed because when you do shop around like that, you're also dealing with an owner that's shopping around. And you know, doesn't value a lot of people undervalue GCs in general or people in construction. I think a lot of people definitely undervalue their time and expertise. So I just think that's how people do get screwed in this industry is, you know, shop around, shop around. They want the best deal. They want the best deal. You can't have it all. You don't get you don't get the timeline, you know, the price and the quality. Yeah, you get two of them. So you got choose which two you want. Yeah, it's at least in contracting. I just want to take a second and thank the sponsor of today's episode, Manscaped. Now Manscaped to spend two years designing the most comfortable boxer briefs out there, sleek, soft, comfortable, and flexible. The brand new boxers 2.0 for Manscaped are the most comfortable boxers I've ever worn. They have the global leaders in below the waist grooming. They have the lawnmower 4.0. Now they have the boxers 2.0. If you want to check these out for 20% off plus free shipping, use our code 20 success at Manscaped.com. Here's a little bit more about the boxers. They are a game changer. The micro modal fabric is buttery soft and breathable. It keeps everything cool, walk, run, strut, these moisture wicking boxers breathe without breaking a sweat. Attackless waistbands hug your body without digging in and it lays flat against your skin to reduce chafing, front fly opens, giving easy access and makes bathroom breaks quick and efficient. You can even choose from arrangement of designs and colors and sizes ranging from small to 3 XL. Now get 20% off plus free shipping with our code 20 success at Manscaped.com. That's 20% off plus free shipping with our code 20 success at Manscaped.com. Now I just like you actually you've had like a like I ask all these questions because like there's people that have like horrible stories from when they were starting business. You actually haven't dealt with like a lot of negative stuff. Dude I've been extremely blessed literally fortunate and like I don't know yeah there's like knock on. I mean I'm sure I will get five. Keep it going man, look sooner than later but again I um yeah I don't concentrate with people I don't I don't know and or don't have a relationship with so and like like I guess I am curious like after you so after you went into the show and you came out of it and you had a like this amount of fame. Has it impacted or changed anything? No because I haven't I haven't capitalized on it like like you talked about I still even have to show I'd you know I mean I still don't have a website I'm building it right now um and that's mainly because I I didn't want to showcase some of the previous projects I had done because that's not the work I want to attract moving forward I understand yeah so I'm I'm only now building it out so I can showcase some of these commercial tiers that I've completed because that's the trajectory that I want for the company so no it didn't really affect me business-wise other than people do like especially some of my subs they they want to work for me they want to work with me yeah so that is there's probably helped a little bit and whether you know I don't know I double down on them yeah you got it like it's going to make your life like exceptionally easier that's that's as much yeah I do sense whatever figure it like go hire somebody to help you out with like content or something like just throw up your phone like this is like Gary V style shit like you just put anything that you love you put out into the world and your content around it yeah but I think that's yeah I know I need to I think I just spend I'm afraid to just like take that leap and like I said I want I want to have all the pieces in place I want never I want everything to structure it will never be in place yeah I know a lot of us that never be in place yeah so I think that yeah I think that everyone has that problem I think that the people that are the most successful at it they don't think too hard about it because you think too hard about it you're gonna realize that not everything's perfect no you're right I mean that's if you listen any of these you super successful entrepreneurs they're just they just fuck it and go all in yeah because you've got to have a little bit you got to have a little bit of like not thinking clearly when you're starting something that you want to blow up and make it huge right what I mean by that is like if you think through every possible thing they can go wrong yeah this show would have never happened yeah this podcast your business it never would have happened yeah so true because people just like get up in their own head and then you just you just absolutely sabotage your own progress absolutely but yeah I mean like you're at the point like I'm uncertain like preaching the choir like you're in it you could definitely love yeah but I think also like like I mean like the the person that you were on the show and everything that pulls up when you go that's not even like who you are no no no you don't I mean yeah it's not at all I mean I like I said I put on a bit of a facade um you know I don't think for I think the thought is too far enough facade but it was just the thought it insinuates to like the personality you had on the show you're pretty like to the point yeah it was very much myself I guess I was just I didn't I didn't open up really let people know about who who I actually am what inspires and what drives me why you know what makes my my clock tick yeah and and has your like I also just want to understand why you thought this was a good idea when you're trying to actually build the business because somebody said to me like hey Scott like I'm trying to start this thing but just don't worry I'm gonna film yeah like eight weeks yeah dude like that's I put out fires for two months after I got back I have no doubt and I had so I had a guy that I had to join venture on on a residential project with and he stepped up for me I paid him to run point on all the projects for me while it was gone um he did a good job and I had had a the super at the time running the project by the way no I'm good I'm sorry I had that super running yeah running jobs me so it was good but it was just it was very difficult to manage that while I'm filming 15 16 hours a day it was like it was chaos um so yeah but it was it was a and I've used this analogy before I had to pull the scales out and say okay what what could this hurt me and then what you know how would this help me yeah so it was yeah it was it was a you know cost first success and and so I figured that okay if I lose a little bit by filming the show I think I can gain from it after and that's where I'm at now I mean you're not wrong that's why I think you like it's you have to like double down a lean into it yeah for sure um your business like the priorities that you had when you started the business versus now have those changed at all like what you're actually focused on accomplishing how does your mind set change uh yeah uh I mean you GCN is a stressful business in general right so definitely gotten better managing my stress you can't let things stress you out but my focus is definitely definitely change I'm I'm I'm a lot more particular about you know even the subs I'm using I want I want everybody that is working for me I want us it wanted to be a partnership that way expectations are set beforehand um and then how do you do that when they're just the contractors that's like it's yeah I mean it's a lot of relationship building to be you know to be honest um like one of my best subs my metal stud and drywall guy I've just built really good relationship really good rapport with him you know well you know we're talking call and shoot the shit for a couple minutes just stuff like that like warming them up to a um not just a business relationship but an actual relationship and I think that that inspires people to to do better work for you you know and or then work for you so you know if I come in on a job and uh you know their numbers over budget if I've got somebody that has been working with me it's way easier to say hey look they should cut 5% here that way we can do this job together so it's almost like bringing them in as partners and that's what I'm that's what I'm focused on now is everybody I work with I want it to be a very um almost personal relationship with these guys that way they are inspired to do good work for me and then stick with me because the market is crazy I mean you you have guys that if they're a guy that you're not working for don't walk off the job because they'll get paid you know five cents more brick somewhere else or something it's you know stupid yeah but that's that's that's how the market is the market like it's always the labor market a little bit better now or um it's it's tough but I've I've definitely honed in on I've only used certain guys I very rarely now I'm out there trying to compare prices like you know if I've got a good sub I'm not out there shopping another subcontractor for that same division um I'm just breaking it down to you the linear foot of metal stud and square foot of drywall and then kind of just just getting that price together and saying hey look what's your profit margin here okay I'm good with you making this much profit what's your time in here so it's more of yeah I'm not I'm not shopping now I'm not I'm not trying to you know make somebody work on something for me I mean it takes a lot to put together an estimate right so yeah I hate wasting people's time actually by the way so I was just that we're my we're in Miami right now in Florida and there was a emerge it was like a huge set conference like two weeks ago yeah and the winner of this like pitch competition with Kevin O'Leary he had this tool uh it was like an AI tool and what it does is it uh with AI measures every measurement that you normally do an estimate yeah in like the matter of like seconds wow it's like in 10 seconds it does like a whole building and the guy like I need that yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah it's insane yeah so I mean like that's something anyways I just thought of that but that's and he was going on about how insane a process it is to estimate it is it is it's like that's and luckily that's when I got into the industry that's why I started off doing I was a project engineer so I was doing estimates and I learned the old school way on on on plans so I would pull out a set of plans you know I'd have all my measurements and I would scale everything and then compile an estimate um but I need to get more technological with it because I still kind of do the old school way this is cutting it just hell yeah when else I it's not like you're behind the it's not like you're missing out and all the other GC's have it that's why he was so successful in the first year because he's like he's building something that no one's ever heard and that's that's can be so helpful I mean I that's part of getting business is you have to be able to turn around an estimate at a reasonable time yeah you know because they are you know you typically if you have a you know bigger outfits they add dental practice or something they're getting to you know at least two or three bids from bigger GC's and then they compare them a little bit so you have to be able to produce an estimate in a timely manner and that's something that I definitely struggle with because I'm doing it all myself still I'm not outsourcing that so like that's something that that's one of those things like where you look at like the the activities and the things you could do that would have the highest impact on your business yeah that's definitely one of them yeah absolutely that's like probably like you know you take your you take your business from X you know whatever it is in revenue and you like you know probably 10X that when you start to sort of outsource that task but that comes down to like hiring the right people figuring out exactly who's not going to screw you yeah by doing the job ethically quickly responsibly that's like again it all comes down to like hiring relationship like it's all the same shit like that's why like you build this company build software company you build like services company like anything yeah every business is people it's always which is like it's funny because people just like totally miss that point yeah it's like how do I how do I transact my way to success and and just like turn and burn and use and abuse people and I don't care about relationships and it never works out like doesn't matter if you're doing what you're doing or you're selling something that's a 10 million dollar thing to somebody I mean even if you're selling to an organization like a large organization you're selling your my backgrounds and software intact so I sell you know you sell like a 10 million dollar piece of software something because you're still dealing with people the level of trust has to be established that's it's the same shit same shit on any level um what's it gonna say I was going somewhere with this too can't remember now no it's oh I was gonna say like when you when you build out your company like what's the point when and maybe this is something that you wouldn't do but I see this is like a huge like revenue opportunity yeah you ever going to like your development like where you oh for sure I think that is the eventual goal of anybody any inspired individual in this industry you have the team and then once you get to a place where you've got the either bank connections or the the money yeah I think it's no brainer to get into development I mean that is um yeah I think that's the end goal of any builder I mean that that that's in my in my mind starting from conception to construction I mean that's that's the whole the whole package you know so eventually I would go into that like you have to go raise money or what I mean just make this business successful first you know and then once again really good at doing what I do or my company gets really good at doing what we do I think it would just be you know a matter of time before I end up in that you know in that part of the industry and I do have a lot of connections in that industry but yeah just a matter of time and it's again it's one of those things why I haven't like promoted my company that hard it's it's one of those things that I don't do anything quick like like I think I know but I like you think too much yeah you're overthinking well I mean it's good to over think sometimes that's probably actually why you've actually had like a pretty good two years yeah because you think through stuff yeah but I mean there's something to be said for like velocity to yeah and just like moving quick yeah breaking shit and figuring it out not always it's not always fun not always no but some of those guys that are just hammers I mean they they get shit done and that's all they know you know is they just push push push and you know act without thinking and you know super successful like Steven Steven and Steven's dad from from the show he's like that the guy's a hammer he just he's just a gunslinger he just puts just the other he gets it done yeah and it's in his wild I mean how quickly he's able to to get shit done it's also stressful as hell though yeah oh yeah I mean you got to have I think that another like another thing that really makes people successful is like they're they're um confidence in themselves and I think that that can only be that you built that like over time like I think like when you've like killed it for multiple years in a row yeah and you realize like help you know I figured out all the other shit for the past 10 years 20 years 30 years even if I go into a situation that I don't really know that well is a pretty damn good chance of me to be able to figure it out sure yeah again not rocket science you can figure anything out if we want to yeah I mean no I feel okay um I want to do I want to do a couple like like rapid fire to pull it like insights you know is there anything else like top of mind for you right now that's like really relevant that you want to like go into like I I feel like where you're exactly at with your business yeah like you're you're at a at a great point right now I still think you should double down on the personal brands yeah but like you are like killing it in like the small business space and then it's like just like uphill from here you've already figured out like the how to make a business fun yeah how to make a business profitable that's like that's cool yeah yeah yeah yeah no I mean I don't think so I mean I'm I'm still in the I'm still in the thick with them and I'm in the grind I mean I'm not gonna try and preach anybody about what it takes to be an entrepreneur because I'm fear people know a lot better than I yeah a lot of people know a lot less too yes true yeah I mean there's something to be said for building like like we're talking before like like businesses that are like not like sexy businesses it's like it's just like hard work yeah I think that if you look at the businesses that really take off quick like you have like a lot of software businesses or you have like a little like a lot of blockchain and stuff like that and they just like attract money yeah and they attract so much money and if you develop a great product for example you can use the internet to get it out yeah do a million people overnight very easily yeah not saying it's easy yeah I'm saying that when you're dealing with people and projects and physical things you have to do and you have to build like not you're not brick and mortar but like same category yeah you're building shit you're selling shit you're you're solving shit in real life yeah and you don't have the ability to scale out about the same level you can't just take on tomorrow 2000 project if you had a software product you could yeah you could tomorrow take on 2000 users you don't have the luxury of doing that no you got to figure out every single thing you're doing is a high-risk activity technique is a business owner yeah and that's something that I think like it's truly admirable when you can't figure that out because I think that that's exceptionally hard to do I see a lot of people that don't do it well and I see a lot of people that again they've done the same thing as you but then they stop after two projects and that's the rest of their life yeah they started but then to scale up is like that yeah yeah no and that's exactly that's exactly where I don't want to get stuck in and that's I've I've noticed that lately because I get pulled into the grind and then I'm you know I'm just running these projects all day and I'm like hey where's the vision at you know if you get stuck and then you lose sight of where you want this thing to go so how do you how do you keep reminding yourself of where the vision's at what's your I get fucking tired yeah yeah yeah I'm like out there sweating working with the guys like I don't need to be doing this right now like I'm supposed to be the the producer out here you know okay you do anything for like you know you've been doing for like two and a half or whatever two years right yeah you do anything for 10 years you're gonna be pretty damn good at it yeah so like at you're at this point right now where you can start to move out yeah I think you can't start to move out right now I think that's probably gonna be your next big challenge yeah yeah where you hire out and like hiring the right people hire trustworthy people yeah for sure it's definitely where man that's yeah that's where I'm the next task to tackle yeah man okay before I do the rapid fire yeah uh so where do you want to send people you have your like drop your social yeah your website is not done yet you know what's going to be though um I'll put it up here in a month or so I was just waiting for a couple of these projects to finish up sides and good content for it yeah um so the website will be soco-group.com the insta is soco-group my insta is sir underscore Kurt um mine is definitely my insta is predominantly just like my life I want it to be very separate of my business you know and that's that's honestly why I don't even like put my last name on like my social because I want the business to be separated you know yeah so and I think I think in the future I think it's probably gonna blend a little bit more yeah my like we'll see all right biggest challenge you've overcome in your own personal life what was that had you overcome it would you learn from it um oh man I uh I've overcome some some big stuff in my life I definitely had a rough couple years um dealt with some serious depression probably some some some big mental health issues and um how do you figure that out how do you get through just just perseverance mental fortitude you know I think that for me um it it takes a lot of me to learn a lesson so I almost had to be broken down to nothing to to literal like rock bottom before then I could start to build myself back up in the way that um that I wanted or that I you know build myself to the person I aspired to be so yeah um what keeps you up at night now just honestly clients and expectations keeps me up at night expectations from other people and then also for myself you know I think you seem like somebody's like harder on yourself than anybody could ever be for sure for sure I have a lot of definitely expectations and and I think that's what broke me down years ago when I was in my early 20s was I I didn't turn out to be the guy that I had dreamed of as a kid as a as a teenager in college it just didn't shape out for me and then so I had all these expectations for myself and I didn't I didn't turn out to be that guy so it's like a be myself up on it went down a dark turn so I think that's something that I've definitely had to wrestle with and just yeah set expectations for yourself but you have to do something to get yourself there you know you can't just blame it on all these external factors I mean you have to look yourself in the mirror and just you know get shit done if you want to be that person then you have to put the work in to go be that person yeah no 100% um if you had to choose one person uh there's been many pick one person had a major impact on your life who was that person what did they teach you I would probably say the uh as far as definitely business wise the the guy who brought me into the industry um that's the younger guy yeah quasi mentor but not yeah yeah yeah um he was definitely just a very inspiring he a he he took risks with people you know he he kind of took a risk on me like maybe this guy will do well maybe won't so you know he took a risk with me I turned out working you know working out well for him I learned a lot from him in his company but he was just a very inspiring person to watch um and see how he navigated through the multiple different industries that he was in I mean he just you know it and it was he was really good with people too I think that was the bad rock about uh it's probably what I don't like about myself he was very distracted uh and he almost would spread himself um thin and would have so many things going on that he you know wouldn't you know he'd get his people start on something and then he's like all right you're on your own get it done because he would expect because he know if he was on his own he'd figure out how to get it on so it's like you either sink or swim type of deal and a lot of people I mean shit when I was there we had so much turnover because because that people would sink you know he would just get people started on one of his projects and then you know he would disappear and go start something else um which is not great to be on it like there's a lot of there's a lot of positive in that attitude it's like how you if you can pull out the positive from that yeah like you'll be you'll be exceptional but I think that like the one thing that he was probably uh he was probably off on was the fact that if you don't own the business you don't give a shit like the owner of the business yeah you can't ever expect anybody who works in the business to be like an owner exactly yeah they also like they don't care and and they don't know what they don't know either and I think I think he just expected people and I do the same thing I just expect people to be smart enough to figure it the fuck out like yeah what you get it done yeah and I mean like you got to be sure that like if you're gonna if you're gonna have the attitude like they you have to have somebody you can't figure it out yeah and that's sometimes like if you if you over as soon that they can like you're kind of being a shitty leader because then you're just leaving them out right right yeah yeah yeah you know helping them ago um if you had to pick your favorite source to learn from could be a book podcast something you'd recommend people check out podcast for sure podcast um I started getting into uh uh Jordan Peterson years ago yeah books however his books are a bit heady to read I find myself like having to stop on them but it's he's a heavy dude yeah he's very very heavy dude he's smart dude I like him yeah very intellectual but his books just the way they read sometimes are like very difficult so his podcast though I enjoy listening to his podcast um the dialogue the people that he brings on and then I've got a few other guys that I like Andrew Klaven so one of them that's one of my favorite podcasts Andrew Klaven um just because his perspective on he was like a Hollywood script writer and then now he's um just just the content and the way he is able to formulate his words and articulate his thoughts I think are just great and that's that's kind of how I aspire to be is like to be able to convey my message to people properly you know so I like listening to people who are good at that like Jordan Pearson's right the best line of Peterson is like the goat at that yeah like the most articulate person ever yeah he's insane yeah yeah um if you had to tell your 20 year old self one thing what would it be hmm yeah a lot of things I would tell 20 year old self um it would probably be balance I think that's where I struggled with early on in life is balance and everything and to you know for any vice you might have you got to you you got to outweigh that with some virtue so and I think that's where people you know go down the wrong path is um you know they they start you know they don't balance things out right I don't think I don't know I want to go with this vice versa we like talked about this a little bit earlier but we got all this squad off yeah like you can like phone a friend like I don't give a shit leaving no answers yeah no yeah honestly yeah balanced though and also um how's always a hard worker but I think I uh in my early 20s I think I resented that I had to work so hard right I saw as other people just just get stuff so easy right so I was not always though I don't know yeah you see it I would see it so I was very resentful in my 20s so I would probably just yeah tell myself to drop that and also check your pride that that's what killed me in my my early 20s too was my pride I had uh and when I checked my pride and you know said my you go to the side my life um in every aspect as far as relationships business wise has exponentially you know improved yeah no good advice um last question what does success mean to you so and like I watch you probably guys so I was thinking about this honestly for a couple of days trying to figure out what what does success just copy the answer no because I was like what does success mean to me because I don't I don't view myself as that successful as a man I mean yeah sure maybe I built a business from nothing however I'm only like I said I don't need to monetarily seeing success but I don't I don't really view uh money as a tool of success I think success for me is freedom of freedom of thought freedom of action knowing that every day when I wake up um uh my life is mine I dictate what is going to happen that day where I'm taking my life and having the the freedom and the ability and the peace to be able to do that