Peter Taunton - Founder of Snap Fitness | Building a $200M Fitness Empire

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All listeners can save 30% off their first order. Just head to cornbreadhamp.com slash success and use code success at checkout. That's cornbreadhamp.com slash success code success for 30% off your first order of these amazing gummies. If you have a company that's growing like rocket fuel, people are always trying to pick off your leadership. If you don't make your leadership feel heard, they're always going to have one year to the ground. In 2003 Peter Totten had a vision to create an affordable 24-7 results driven gym experience challenging the overpriced impersonal big box model. That vision became snap fitness now with 2,500 locations in 26 countries. I'm 22 years old. I'd quit college. I had no plan B. I was just looking for something that I felt I could love. At the time I was a professional racquetball player and the job that was thrown in front of me was to turn around this failing health club. I had turned that club from losing 200,000 a year to making about 250 grand a year. Over the next 10 years, I built seven clubs. As founder and CEO of Lift Brands, Peter expanded further building one of the largest wellness franchise organizations in the world. He's been named Ernst and Young Entrepreneur of the Year, featured in Forbes and Entrepreneur and remains dedicated to helping others achieve personal and financial freedom. With me was snap fitness. I took an idea to my first exit which was six years later. So an idea on a legal pad to my first exit six years, a company valued at a hundred million dollars. That is how fast it can happen. Don't underestimate the value of peace in your life. Today we unpack his journey building a global brand and what it really takes to succeed. Welcome to success story on your host, Scott Clary. The success story podcast is part of the HubSpot podcast network. HubSpot not only supports this show but they support entrepreneurs. That's why it's such a huge fan of HubSpot and I'm very grateful for HubSpot for supporting the show because they help entrepreneurs and as a fellow entrepreneur, I know it takes a lot to grow your business. A lot of audience attracting, a lot of sales, a lot of marketing, a lot of lead scoring, a lot of channel management, a lot of content, a lot of long days, late nights, a lot of weekends, a lot of wishing there wasn't easier way but there is. With Breeze, this is HubSpot's new collection of AI tools. It's easier than ever for marketers, for entrepreneurs, to attract audiences, to increase leads, to score customers, to close deals fast, which means pretty soon your company will have a lot to celebrate. Visit HubSpot.com slash marketers to learn more. Peter, you spent eight years grinding away at a single gym location before you built your empire. That runs counter to how a lot of people look at entrepreneurship where they try and fail as fast as possible and sort of move on to the next thing. Growing up, what was the lived experience or the inflection point in your life that allowed you to think that I can stay in this for a long time. I can stick it out. I can sort of persevere. I think that that's a remarkable quality. I think more people should have that quality, not a lot of people do. You know what? I think it's important to understand where I come from. At the time at that club that you're talking about, I'm 22 years old, I'd quit college. I had no plan B, so I was just looking for something that I felt I could love. At the time, I was a professional racquetball player and the job that I was put in that was thrown in front of me was to turn around this failing health club. They paid me $16,000 a year. Now, this is a club that historically had been losing money every year. There was five owners and they said, Peter, 16,000 a year, but here's the punch line. You could turn this thing around. You will let you buy us out with the profits. Well, look at me. 22 years old, rocking a mullet couldn't find my ass with both hands. I had an opportunity to try to turn around this failing health club. Now, when you have no plan B and when you grow up, not dirt poor, but when you grow up with less than, you're just looking for opportunity. I always say opportunity, it doesn't knock at whispers. You've got to pay attention to where those opportunities reside. I'll be honest with you. I didn't know at the time that that was going to be my springboard to building one of the largest wellness brands in the world. But I leaned in and was determined to turn that club around. And I did it through a number of different things. So for me, the first thing was, how do you stop the bleeding? You know, I always tell people when you're digging a hole, sometimes the first thing you need to do is stop digging. So I looked at how are we spending money? How is, why is this business not cash flowing? It was just complacent. How did you know this stuff at 22? That's, you didn't let. I mean, I give a lot of kudos to my father who put me to work at eight years old selling popcorn in front of his grocery store. And having a front row seat to watching my dad get in and work at this grocery store, it was a small grocery store in the hometown that I grew up in. But when you see that and you have a front row seat to that, that's now you understand what an honest age work looks like through the lens of an eight year old. My dad would get up at dark, he'd get home at dark, he'd work all day. I mean, you just saw it and you lived it and you breathe it. And if that's all you ever see, then you say, okay, that's what work life looks like. And my dad being, he owned his grocery store in this small town of ours. He would share some of the experiences in family conversations, predominantly with my mother or with his friends. But when you're eight years old, you're listening to everything. You love sitting around those adult conversations and getting little nuggets of gold. I didn't know that I would use some of that. But what my father taught me, and literally in the first exit of my first company, I told my dad and it was for 47 million. And it was made public in the paper. I don't know why. But my dad called me and he said, son, did I read this right? Did you sell your company for 47 million? And I told him, well, dad, I sold 40% for 47 million. And then in the same breath, I said, hey, dad, I can never repay you for the work ethic that you taught me from eight years old. I'm forever indebted to you to give me that character and that fight and that grit. So I don't take that stuff lightly. That's why it's when I see entrepreneurs out there today that have, and it's one of my favorite words, grit, meaning they're not quitters. They're not going to cow or when things get tough, they're not going to throw in the towel. They're going to step back. They're going to brush themselves off and they're going to recalibrate and press forward. Those are great qualities. So I mean, you picked up a lot of this work ethic from your dad, which I think is actually it's beautiful that you actually understood that. And in the fact that he gave you that opportunity at a young age too, I think that's absolutely beautiful. So at 22, you get this opportunity and you lean in. You just lean it. Okay. So you and I cut you off before. I'm sorry. I was just curious sort of where that all came from because even that, I don't think many people have the balls to jump into that opportunity at 22. That would scare a lot of people. Maybe they don't even realize how serious an opportunity that could be. It's a lot. Well, you know what? I will tell you, the first day on the job there, when I came in and I was awarded the opportunity, I'm 22, just about every employee was older than me. Okay. It was this health club and some of the people had been there a long time, some of them in their mid 30s, mid 40s. Here comes this guy 22 years old and now he's the manager. He's the guy that I'm reporting to. Right. So there was and I walked around this club with a yellow legal pad and a pen and I'm writing down things that need to be done. Okay. And I went to the entire staff and I said, look, everybody, we need to show up tomorrow morning because we're going to we're going to give this club a deep clean. The club was filthy. Nobody cared. So we're going to give it a deep clean. Everybody show up. So the next morning, I show up, everybody's there. And I'm just getting ready to divide the group, the people into groups to divide and conquer this club. One of the people steps forward since Peter, I have just something to say that we'd like to address before we clean. And that's a by all means, ladies name was barb. She says, we weren't hired to clean. Okay. Now keep in mind day one on the job. I'm 22 years old and it's like a freaking mutiny or okay. And I'm 22 now that was a character building moment for me because I could have said barb, you're exactly right. What was I thinking? Anyone who doesn't want to clean, feel free to go. And by the way, that's tough when everyone's older than you too. No question, right? They're not they and we seriously, I could have said that. But instead I looked at their eye and I said, Hey, Barb, and you also don't have a job. And I pointed to the door. You could have heard a pin drop. Okay. People knew holy shit. Who is this guy? I mean, literally day one. Peter just wants you to know we weren't hired to clean. And you also don't have a job. I mean, that was a pivotal moment. Now she ended up staying. And I did it. I did eat up the jobs. And when it came to the bathrooms, the toilets, I took that. So that sent another message across the bow. It said that it's told everyone, hey, look, this guy, he's not playing. But he's also he's going to get in there and get dirty. And I learned that from my father as well. I mean, my dad at his grocery store, he owned the grocery store. You would see him shoveling the sidewalk, carrying out groceries, working the till, doing the books, stocking the shelves. He did it all. He put himself above nothing. And what that did for him is you stand back and look at it. You can see it now that it made all of his employees so committed and dedicated to him because they knew that he was right there for him. All right. And that's that's great leadership in my opinion. And I've I've carried that with me my entire business career 40 some odd years. So that's very wise. So you how you you put your foot down, but you're not putting it down from a place of I'm better than you. It's you're putting your foot down from the place of we're all doing this. We're all in this together. We're going to figure this out. Yeah. Look, it's always a slippery slope. I always say never let the inmates run the asylum. Okay. And that's true in business. You got to lead. Okay. You can't lead by consensus. That's not leadership. Okay. So you're not always going to be popular. But I tell you what, when you know what, when things get tough, when shit hits the fans, so to speak, can I be candid by the way on this? Yeah. Okay. When when when when shit hits the fan, you know, it's like Jack, Jack, Jack, Jack Nicholson, you want me on that wall? Okay. You got to have a leader. Okay. Who's not going to power? Who's going to make choices? And depending how big your company gets, you're making decisions for hundreds of families. Okay. That are banking on you making the right decision every day because their livelihood is banking on that, right? So leadership is not for the faint of heart, right? Do you think because some people listening to this definitely agree, some people probably think that not being top down and having input from the bottom up can also help make great opinions. So and I think that for some things, that's true. I think it is important to have ideas coming from everywhere in the organization. So to balance those sort of too conflicting ideas, so top down versus bottom up or when should leadership be top down sort of, it's my way and this is how we're doing it. And when is the time for including all those other ideas to help the company? I think that's a great question. And I think that the culture that you create within your four walls is going to lend to that. So in my case, I always had an open door policy. Look, and people respected it. I mean, some people say open door policy and then no one ever comes in. But I literally, I had an open door policy, meaning if you've got something that you feel like you can't go to your direct report because I had different divisions within the company, they had a report. And I would, those are the people that would report directly to me. However, I wanted the culture to be in such a way where anyone, even from the office receptionist, that if she's got something weighing heavy on her heart and she wants to talk to me, I always take those conversations. So I think great leadership is also not putting yourself above others. Look, understanding the role that you play, but getting input from people from your team is one thing, but it's another thing altogether to go around the boardroom and say, can I get a show of hands? Okay, because look, you're banking. What you're doing is you're asking people their opinion on something that if it's a critical component of the success of the business, they don't have the historical knowledge to know. They don't know what they don't know. And you know what, that's, I think that's poor judgment on a CEO's part to get a consensus when potentially 80% of the people in the room have no historical experience to give you substantive input. And I think that it could, I think that a CEO that defers judgment because it makes the, it makes the decision feel more safe. Right. Right. It's not all my fault. Yeah. It doesn't go right. And you know what, when I, when I pass, when I'm in a board meeting and I want input from my team, I typically, I'm getting it from the department heads whom the decision is going to affect. Okay. So I don't have every division in the company there to participate just for just so I have a head count, but I have the appropriate people in the room who it's going to be affected. And I'll ask them, I'll go around. I always ask the opinion of people first, because if I give my opinion first, everyone's just going to fall in line. Yeah. Okay. A whole bunch of yes, Matt. You got it. So I'm going to go around and get that input. And then what I'll typically do is come back. And when I'm asking the question, I already know the answer. Okay. So I'm not, but I'm wondering for myself, have I missed anything? Okay. And, and then after that we go around, I'll say, look, here's what I'm thinking. And then I'll lay my plan out, my strategy out. And if somebody has got something a nugget that made sense, maybe then I quite all the way there. I'll turn around and I'll say, Hey, Scott, I like what you said there. I like that point. But I'm going to try to incorporate that. Let me, let me sleep on that one, but I like where you're going with it. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. You're, you're incorporating. You're still incorporating. You got to know where you're going, but you also know at the same time, there could be ideas that could add to what you're trying to do. You got it. And I think when you, when you lead like that, those people, they feel like number one, very important that your department heads because if you go, if you have a company that's growing like rocket fuel, like mine was, people are always trying to pick off your leadership. Okay. Very important. So if you don't make your leadership feel heard, they're always going to have one year to the ground. Okay. For the opportunity that comes along. So for me, I always tried to keep opportunity in front of my department heads, growth opportunities within my department by acquisition of other brands and things. I wanted my team. And then the other thing that I did with, with my leadership, I gave them equity in the company, but the equity would only vest on the next liquidity event. Okay. You quit the company. You don't get anything. You get zip. Okay. Why, why did I do that? Because turnover, especially in areas like IT, you hire another IT person. You got to bring them in. You got, you got to ramp them up to what you're doing. I mean, it's honestly, in, in my opinion, when it comes to IT, they're probably, they're probably 30 days in before they're really pulling deep on. I could be for a lot of departments. I could be for sales usually a 90 day ramp. I mean, depending on how fast you move them, yeah, but everything. But yeah, I mean, like IT, I guess it's like mission critical, like, you know, stuff can't back down stuff. Yeah. That won't stuff. Okay. So we'll go into, we'll go into sort of how you grew, snap, but I want to go back to that first club. So this is your first real business, right? This is the first thing that you're building. How do you turn that around? And then how did it start to turn into something that it when I knew I had something? So what was the thing that it had? Okay. Well, the first day was a great day because it really set a precedent. Okay. And I said, look, this is all about, I let the staff know we're in the service business. Okay. We're not in the gym business. We're in the service business. So the guest experiences everything. It starts with the club in us. Here's what needs to happen. The club needs to be clean. The equipment needs to be in great working order. It doesn't need to be brand new because quite honestly, this membership base is not a cost under that because we've been, we've been using duct tape and bubble gum forever here. So once we get cash flow, then it's, then I plan to put that money back into equipment to everything that we can to give the club a facelift. So it started to guess experience. I said, every person comes in. I want to, I want them greeted. So we started with how do we greet them? And I was at that front desk, a good, good part of the day, calling people by name. And so my staff could see it. And literally within, within 45 days of taking that gym over, I've been, I, I bet I replaced 30, 40% of my staff because they weren't willing to lean in. They weren't willing to raise the bar above their ankles. You know, I would say anyone can be an all-star if you set the bar at your ankles. And there's some truth behind that. Look, you got to show up. You got to show up. You got to greet people, call them by name when they're coming in. Thank them for coming in when they leave. That's, that's critical because the only thing you're bringing to the party today is your smile and your appreciation for their loyalty to keep their membership. Okay. You're not, you're not winning them over by great equipment. All right. So then once I got felt like I had that organized, the second thing is what can I do? We have no money. We have no budget. Keep in mind the club was losing 200,000 a year. Okay. When I went back to the owners and said, what is my marketing budget? They looked at me, marketing budget. Maybe you didn't hear us. We lose 200 grand a year. We have no cash flow. Okay. So they're just keeping it alive just in on the hopes. Every year, these guys are kicking in 50,000 eachers five, you know, four or four or five owners, right? So knowing that that's what I'm dealing with, I went around that community and I was, I was the king of barter. All right. I went to a carpet store and I said, look, I don't have money, but I have memberships. I'll give all your employees a membership at my gym in trade for carpet. All right. And when I, and, and, and surprising, I mean, I got 10 knows before I got a yes, but I just kept pounding, right? And carpet, paint, plants, you name it. Okay. And when I, when I did the facility, the club was about 40,000 square feet. So it was a midsize club. But I started at the front door and I worked my way out the back door because you never got a second chance for a first impression. When people came into that club after, because this thing was a dive. Okay. They come in, they start smelling fresh carpet, fresh paint, plants. I mean, they're starting, they're going, hey, wait a minute, right? So they knew that there's something different about this guy, this guy being me and the community rallied behind me. Okay. I mean, like nothing you've ever seen before. If there was a parade, I was in the parade. I went to every business and gave out free trial memberships, come try my club. And I was getting high conversions, right? So I, I had turned that club from losing 200,000 a year to making about 250 grand a year. I turned that club around in about four years to where now when, when you're generating that kind of cash flow, I was throwing in at those owners to get equity. Okay. And in eight years, I had over 51% equity in that business. That's what allowed me to go to a local bank and refinance the business. Okay. Once I had the tipping point where I now controlled the business, then I went to a bank, little local local bank, farmer state bank of all places. Okay. They gave me a loan, paid everyone off, and then refinance it, gave myself a little cash, more cash flow, started investing in equipment and the rest of history. So a huge shout out to bank on yourself for supporting today's episode entrepreneurs. Here's the retirement secret that Wall Street doesn't want you to know while you are pouring everything into growing your business, they want you gambling your future in their 401k casino with no guarantees. As a business owner, you already take enough risks. Why gamble with your retirement too? It is time to discover the financial strategies smart entrepreneurs are using to protect their wealth. Bank on yourself is the proven approach that gives business owners what they need most, certainty, flexibility, and control in their retirement. 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You grinded it out for eight years before you were able to do this, but that's even what you did was a very strategic play. I think it was a very strategic play. When when was the point when you realized that you actually wanted to not only just own this, but you saw a bigger vision? Because some people probably could have just been okay, well, I'm going to buy out the owners. I'm going to make 200 whatever, I don't know how much of Jim was cash flowing, maybe a tap of a million, maybe it's a million, whatever. This is a great business. I'm going to try and get 100% of this and I'm just going to triple down on this one. Yeah, I have a great one. You didn't think that. You're like, I want to copy and paste this as many times as possible. There's a lot of risk in that too because just because one works doesn't necessarily mean the next one works because now you have a whole bunch of other problems. You have to solve and foot traffic and different demographics and different city and different incomes and different all that. So what was the thing that made you want to say, I'm not just happy with this. I want to keep going. It's, look, I think the the drive I was ambitious for one and I thought I had there was another town that was about 40 minutes from this town that I grew up in, which is where that health club was. And that town didn't have much of a gym at all. And I just thought one day, I'm going to I'm going to build another club because I had cash flow and my decision was based on what would it cost me to build that club? Do I have enough cash flow here to cash with that one? So even if that one doesn't make any money, does it sink the ship? Okay. So I'm playing an ultra conservative. I'm not going to think, and okay, I need to do 40 grand a month to for this thing. No, I said, look, I got to make sure that this thing can cash full that one in the event. This goes sideways. Very conservative. Well, I built that club and that club perform, well, the community embraced it. Now, keep in mind, that was a brand new club. And I didn't put I didn't put in swimming pools. I didn't put in childcare. I kept it, I kept it, you know, neat, the bread and butter of what you needed at that time to for people to want to buy a membership. And it was successful. And then honestly, over the next 10 years, I built seven clubs. Okay. Okay. So a little bit less than one a year. Yeah. And I tell you why I did it. When I built that second club, that club almost immediately cash flowed. Okay. Like literally out of the gate, I was never feeding it. So now I've got two businesses that are spinning up cash. I build a third one. Well, we'll be hold. Same thing. All right. And I'm looking at the markets. I'm putting them in midsize markets because less, less national competition. So my only competition was another locally owned little gym or maybe a YMCA. But not a big, there wasn't at this time, there wasn't like the lifetime witnesses of the worlds and all these other players. So it look, it worked out for me, right? I did it seven times. And then, and then I sold that. I sold it. I was, I was about probably close to 40. And that was the 47 million. No, no, no, that was, that was literally when I sold those gyms and, and paid everything off, I had about three million in my checkbook. Oh, so it was a relatively small exit compared to everything else. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I keep on doing three millions. Great. But it's not 47. It's not 200. No, no, that's right. And that was my life savings. Okay. It was my life savings. And when I sold that, the one of the people that had worked for me was not happy. And he had been with me for about 10 years, was not happy with the group that I had sold the business to. Was it private equity? I don't know. Just a private, private individual, a couple of guys that bought the business. And, you know, the culture changed as what that happens, right? Well, and he was talking to me because he just requested a Peter, would you, would you ever consider building me a gym? I'll run it. You know, you don't have to be involved with it if you don't want to. And I know you're trying to get out of this and do something else. And yet he, he, he probably asked me five or six times before I finally gave it consideration. And then I did it. And, you know, that, that was snap fitness. And, you know, it was a, at that time, those clubs were 2,500 to 3,500 square feet, smaller footprints. And all I did was, was replicate what was being done in hotels across the country. Keep in mind, you have your room key, you're going in your workout, those hotel gyms, they're not staffed. You're going, you grab your workout, you go back to your room, you shower it, the same premise. So I always say what I did was I brought something that was under our noses. And I just brought it to the doorsteps of, of every strip mall and every, in every town across this country. I mean, and I didn't, when I set out to do it, I wasn't, I didn't know that I was going to build thousands of gyms. I didn't, I didn't know at the time. But I knew that what I had, I built one in, in an urban market, and the club cash flowed. In 90 days, I sold enough memberships to cash flow the business for the year. I was really, keep in mind, I had, I had one, brought one and a half to two employees in the entire gym. Okay, very low overhead. Yeah. So you don't need to sell a lot of memberships to make that work, right? It's like your rent, and you're quick at that. Yeah. It's just, it was just so easy. And I, and I'm thinking, okay, I don't need to have 500 or a thousand members here. I can, these things cash flow on 200 memberships. Here's a town of 10,000 people. I can certainly sell 200 people on exercise, right? Well, look, the dogs ate the dog food, right? I put it in an urban market. I sold it up in 90 days. I said, so now I was, I was intrigued by what was happening. I said to this guy again, I'm going to build another one. I built it in another, a different size town, a mid size market. The club performed the same way. The unit level economics fell into place, which is important for any of your listeners out there that are expanding their business. Does your business work in any size market? For me, putting this gym in a mid size market, the rent is less, the overhead is less. Therefore, I need less memberships to cash flow it, right? Did it same, same thing happen mid size market? Well, then I said, I'm going to put it in a town of 3,500 people. Now, I put it in that town, and that was the first time I was ever thinking about a franchise, because I knew if this works in this town, I can put it across the entire country, all right? You've hit every market. I've hit, I've hit urban. I've hit mid size. I'm going to put it in this town of 3,500, and I was married at the time. I remember Chalamet, why? I'm going to put it in this little town. It was Coketo, Minnesota, population 3,500 people, literally a one-stop light town, and I said, I'm probably going to lose my ass, but I got to know, right? I put it in there, well, the rest is history. I mean, it performed just like the others. In that little town, I remember my rent was 1200 a month, and that included utilities. I mean, it was so bare bones, I needed about 140 memberships to cash flow of business. I had like 300, 300, 400 memberships. I'll go up because there's no other gym in this town either. Yeah, you got no competition. And what happens is people just get behind it, because now there's suddenly a place where they can go in and exercise. Yeah, and it probably turns into a little bit of one concept that I love is Starbucks, and like the third place or the, so it's like, you have your work, you have your home, then you have this other thing that's a little bit communal. Exactly. Right. And that's what for metany people, gym is that thing too, because they go all the time, they sometimes like they spend too much chatting, whatever. That's not the point. Yeah. Yeah. No, they have their friends there. Right. I think comes a little, a little, a little sub community. Yeah, the whole gym community. Yeah. And look, it worked, it worked out. It worked out. Now that business, that company today is evolved, you know, you know, seven eight eight times over into what that was. But at that point in time, that, that business, that model worked. It was no contract open 24 hours, you belong to one, you belong to them all. So there was no reason for the consumer to say no, which is important. I always talk about in business, you've got to be able to separate yourself from all of the competition. You got to be able to stand on that hill, put your stake in the sand and say, yes, I may be selling exercise, but I'm different. And here's why you got to be able to point that out because the consumer, there's no shortage of gyms. You've got to convince the consumer that the, the product that you're bringing forth is a better opportunity than what they're currently doing. And for me, no contract. Look, when I did it, when I started no contract, everybody else was trying to shackle you to a 12 or 18 month contract. I was no contract. And that's why when people would come into my gym, I would tell them, look, you've got everything you need here to get fit. It's seven days a week, 24 hours a day, you belong to one, you belong to them all, but only if you only use this one. It's still understand. Let's say that you try this. You do it for 30 days. If I didn't deliver on my promise, what's the worst thing can happen? They look at me like it's a trick question. And I just tell them, you just quit. Just quit. I mean, if I can't earn your business, earn your trust and maintain, if I can't continue to deliver value, I don't deserve your, your, your loyalty. And that just resonated with the consumer. And I think today, that mindset still resonates. People like that old fashioned, I'm going to earn your business. I'm going to earn your trust. You know, here, here we are in Miami. Okay. Look, you can go into just about any place, order something, take out and they put a 18% maturity on it, which drives me crazy. It does mean to you. You know what? And it's not, it's not about the money. It's about the principle of it. I always say, if I'm standing, I shouldn't have the tip, meaning if I'm going in and I order something and you automatically throw a gratuity on it, that to me is bullshit. Okay. They didn't, they didn't do any service. Nothing. Yeah. I came in. I pick. So I've always had an issue with, with that. But you know, but you're right. So the, the, the idea is, I think too many businesses get comfortable because either there's no competition or they find a way to lock you into a contract or they find a way basically to opt out of giving you good service. But the second somebody does, you're good. That, that competitor is going to eat, eat that other businesses lunch every single day. And that's what you did. And that's, I think it's an important idea because now there's more, there's more options than ever before. So if anybody doesn't like what you're doing, you can just go somewhere up and there's actually some restaurants that I don't go to anymore because of that specific reason. Just like there's some, there's some gyms that I don't go to. There's some pick a service that you use. I mean, there's some phone providers that I don't like the way they structure their contracts. I'll never use them like some. So yeah, there's more options than ever, which is a good thing. That's capitalism. That's, that's a very good thing. So you have to, if you're going to build a business act accordingly, you have to fight for your customer every day. And it's not, I, I don't know why people are upset with that idea. I think it just makes you a stronger business, a stronger entrepreneur. Absolutely. And you know what, when you're getting into business and, and I work with many companies today and they're looking to pivot and I tell them, look, by doing what we're going to do, understand the market is going to follow you. Okay, the consumer is going to like the value that you bring forward. I promise you, they're going to like what we're doing. And the competition's going to follow. So you better be prepared for that. You're going to win the short battle, but you will not win the long battle unless you outhouse them in customer service and guest experience. Okay, because people, people evolve. I mean, they're looking at each other, they're looking at the lay of the land. If the competition doesn't pivot to what the, what is now relevant in the eyes of the consumer, they're dead anyway. They're not your competition. You know what I mean, they're going to be, they're, they're dead. They don't even know it yet. Okay, it's just they're just going to die a slow spiral death because the cons, from just attrition. So I think when you're going in the battle of being an entrepreneur, make sure that you're always relevant. Always pay attention to what's going on with your competition, not even just local competition, but on a national level. See who's doing what? Okay, get out there. See who's winning and how they're winning. And then if you have to evolve accordingly, do it. Be out in front of it. Okay, I remember when I had my gym, my one gym out in little Wilmer, Minnesota of all places. I had one gym, but when you're, when you're breaking a couple hundred thousand a year profit, I had extra cash. So I would, I would pay instructors from Minneapolis to come out once and want on a Saturday morning. And we would have a guest instructor. Okay, I had this huge aerobic studio. And the people just liked it because it brought the city out to this little town. It gave them another, another look at what other people are doing in the big city. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And they just love that I did that. And it's something above and beyond. And it's something no one else is doing. I had a question and, and it going back to something that you said a little while ago. So entrepreneurship, people usually associate risk with entrepreneurship. And there is, there is a little bit of risk involved. Obviously, you have to have a little bit of risk. But the way that you sort of walk through how you thought about business ideas and opening up new locations, a UD risked quite a bit. And you even said like you're actually super risked adverse when it comes entrepreneurship. So again, it's almost like two conflicting ideas. Entrepreneurs aren't hardly risk you. You found a way to do it without with as little risk as possible. So what would be sort of your view on risk and entrepreneurship? How much should somebody take? Maybe they shouldn't take that much. I don't know where the balance is. It's where you are in your journey. Now, I'll tell you straight away, when I had my very first club, when I was not even doing snap fitness yet, I was just my first gym. It was huge your opportunity to turn around the spelling gym. Well, when I when I was successful there and I was going to build my second location, I had to make sure, look, calculated risk. Yeah, there was risk associated with it. But I had no plan V. Remember, it wasn't, I didn't have this war chest of cash. So you had to be very calculated on how you did it because the last thing you want to do is get into a lease on a second location. It's not performing. And now all the cash flow you've generated from store number one is getting eaten up by store number two. So for me, I made sure that when I got into that lease, if it didn't work out, I had an exit strategy from the landlord. I would, so I could limit my risk if I had to. So I was very calculated on how I went about that. Now, as I started generating more and more cash flow and, and keep in mind, even when I was experiencing this cash flow, I was not upgrading my, I upgraded my car, but I didn't upgrade my lifestyle a lot. You see a lot of entrepreneurs do that? Yeah, they just, they get crazy. They, but to me, I was putting everything back into the business because I knew that I would have my day when I could exit and, and then live a life that I'd always wanted to. I wasn't on food stamps. Don't get me wrong. But I was very, I was the cash was sacred. Okay. So that's a very different scenario. That was what I had to work with. And when I work with companies today who are in that place, they like to swing for the fences. And I'm always pulling them back, reeling them in and say, look, don't take that risk because that risk is going to sink the ship if it doesn't work. So I know you feel in your heart that that's 100% no risk, but I'm telling you straight away, there is. Look at COVID. There was nobody saw COVID coming. And people just got absolutely blindsided, obliterated on it from being over levered in a very downtime. Okay. So all those things is worry right in your journey so that, you know, the, the long answer to your short question is calculated risk depends on how much cash you have in reserve and never bet the farm. Just it's, it's fiscally irresponsible to bet the farm because you don't want to go back to where you started. Okay. That's a hell of a road. You know what I mean, don't, don't, and it breaks my heart when I see entrepreneurs, they work their tail off. They have an exit. Now they have 10 million in the bank. They, they think they have FU money that they can just buy whatever they want. And they're going to want for nothing. And they wake up one day and a few bad investments here, a few bad stocks there. People came out of the woodwork. Can you give me a loan? You know how it works? Pretty soon, their 10 million is six. Okay. And I've worked with people in that scenario before had a guy that very exact scenario. And when, when I was called to come in and help him, I started peeling back some of his depreciating assets. He had a large boat. I said, let's, let's get rid of the boat. Peter, why do I got to sell the boat? It's bought and paid for it. Look, you're yacht. It's costing you about 12 grand a month. Okay. So what I'm trying to do is stop your cash flow burn right now every month, you're going into a deficit. So if we, if we don't do these things right now, you're going to be, I'm going to be looking at you two years from now and your six is now going to be four and a half. And now you're going back to work. Okay. So, you know, it got real for him in a hurry. Now the good news is he listened. We got rid of some of those depreciating assets for him. And he hunkered down. We got into some things where he's no longer swinging for the fences. He's got good steady returns on his investments. He's not spending. He's never, he's not dipping into his principle anymore. He's spending his passive income. And he's still taking a portion of his passive income and putting it to work for him. Okay. So when you have a down year, you're still growing. Okay. It's smart. So it's, it, it absolutely. It had nobody teaches you this stuff, by the way. No, because you're good at building a business. Doesn't mean you're a good investor. Doesn't mean you're, doesn't mean you're good anything else. It's literally what you just did. Exactly. And now, now for him three years later, he's got back. He's probably had about 7.2 million. So he's, he's fighting back the other way. And it's not that, it's not that bad. And you know, and I told him, look, it's not that you can never have a boat again. But why the hell if you can get a boat and, and, and, and borrow the money at four or five percent at the time that he was getting money was cheap, get a four four or five percent loan on your boat and then keep that 1.5 million working for you. You know what I mean? But you know, live and learn. He learned a great lesson there. Good, good that he learned it to like sooner than later. And even the people that I know that have had exits that are much larger than than 10 million. No, assuming that was aftertax, but people that have exits in, you know, north of 50 and they buy a boat. They, they're still, they're, they're still finding people to rent it out from them on the weekends or during the week when they're not using it to find a way to get it's paid for itself. I know people that bought a boat and now they at the, they charge tickets so people can host events on the boat. Like the point is, you don't just want to hold all these depreciating assets. And I don't, and when you sell a company, you don't think through all these ideas. Yeah, you're just like, wow, this is great. I've never had this much money. Nobody in my family has ever had this much money before. Let's see how fast we can spend it. And it happens. You know, when I have a boat and it was, it's about a three and a half million dollar boat that in, I've just told my fiance, look, I'm going to sell the boat. We don't use it. We use it like literally two or three times a month, eight months of the year. And it's about 20 grand a month. Okay. Now look, it doesn't matter how much money you have. And to me, that's a struggle that I work that I have. What sometimes when I look at myself in the mirror, I say to myself, so that's who you've become. You're that guy now where you just throw money around like a drunken sailor. Like, you don't mean there's so many other more responsible things I can do. I don't need a boat. I thought I want it, you know, I convinced myself that I wanted a boat. And it's probably from when I was a kid, in visualizing, you know, what this lifestyle might look like. But look, buying things that you don't use, just depreciating assets, just to fill your own cup. You've got it, you've got to get away from that. You know, there's so much more, so many better ways to have a boating experience without owning the boat. I just want to take a quick break and thank the Havspot podcast network for supporting success story for the past two years. Now the Havspot podcast network has other incredible podcasts like my first million now. 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And the people that you work with, they are, you said before we press record a million, two million dollars in an EBITDA and that's sort of the sweet spot because a lot of opportunity. They figured out product market fit. Great. They're scaling their business. Great. But one thing that I think people, again, some people think about this. Not enough people think about this is, okay, say everything does work. How do I structure my exit? How do I make sure that I actually get paid? And a couple of ideas that I've seen that we can talk about. So you took money off the table before you sold, which I think is impressive. Not everybody does that. How do you negotiate that? Some people raise money and they dilute their company too much as well. And by the time they exit, they actually are not getting that much money. And also, who do you sell to? Do you want to sell to private equity? Do you want to sell to a strategic buyer? Do you want to take the company public? Like what do you want to do with it? Or do you want it to be a lifestyle? So a lot of ideas around exit that I think you probably have opinions on. So let's start with what should entrepreneurs think about? When should entrepreneurs think about exiting a business? Is it right away? Is it five years? Like what's the, what's the thing you teach? Well, firstly, look, every and every company is a little bit different. But if let's say that they're doing a million of EBITDA, which means, you know, when I say that that's my sweet spot, the reason I like that, just for your listening audiences, they've, they've invested to have some redundancy in their leadership. Number one, number two, they've invested in some, in some IP, some technology. So the back wonder the company, the foundation of what, of the analytical data that they're collecting. So they've made some investments in those areas. The first five years or first few years of a business where all the road rushes. And for me to get involved with the company early on in that, it's so much heavy lifting that, that for me, if I'm going to do that, I may as well run the company. And that's, I don't want to get back into that. But if, but a million, now I can, you've got some surplus cash flow. We can strategically put things in place for it. The first conversations I have with a founder, he's got a million of EBITDA. I say, white canvas, blank canvas, what does this look like in five years for you? All right. Is it, are you a five million EBITDA, are you 10 million EBITDA? And then I ask him, what, what's your exit strategy? Because that's the other part of it. Every part of being an entrepreneur, you have to visualize what it is you're going to do. What is the product or service you're bringing to the market? And then how do you grow that business? How do you get trajectory? And then how do you exit to your point? Am I going to go to the open market with a full-blown process, bidding process or myself to a strategic? We don't need to worry about that now, but I need to know that this is not a business that you intend to hand down a generational business, okay? Big difference, all right? Because we don't have to worry about those other things then. Yeah. Do you, do you have an outside of generational business that you hand down to kids and that could be a whole other podcast about succession planning and what? But outside of that, what do you have a preference? Is there one that you like better than others? Like if you're like, hey, founder with a million dollars EBITDA, this is how I think you should grow. This is how I think you should position it for exit. These are the things we should start to do now to think through so that we can maybe maximize recurring revenue or maybe maximize value weight like other things that you think through. Yeah, absolutely. I look at every part of the business and then I share with them stories about, for me, starting Snap Fitness, creating an administrative infrastructure, which is legal, accounting, marketing, sales force, that's the hub of lift brands, okay? In this hub is all the human capital, IP technology that is there. And when I saw that I had that, I said, look, I can leverage this across multiple brands. It doesn't matter, which is why you have Snap Fitness, which is why you have Nine Round, you have Fit Stop, you have Fitness on Demand, you have Yoga Fit, you have all these brands. That's the core. That's what you got to build. They all, well, and here's why it's beautiful. If I'm looking at your company and I see that you have all those components and you're doing 5 million of EBITDA, I'm going to pay you on a multiple of your EBITDA, but the day that I'd buy it, my EBITDA could be seven because there's so much redundancies that I'm going to eliminate. So, you know, and they say, oh, man, Peter, he paid me a five-time multiple, but the market says four, but he's overpaying. They don't know that. No, not really, my friend. The day that I buy it, I'm my five multiple. I'm actually, you're doing five million of EBITDA. Next year, I'm going to do seven, and that's if I don't even grow your business. You got it. I've got redundancies, and so it works out, and you can easily do that. So, to your point on how do you exit, you got to look at who are the strategic players in your space? And I love it when you have a strategic player, and then the other side of it is, is it strategic, is it private equity? And then secondly, what do you want to do? Do you want to sell all of it? Do you want to sell a portion of it? Because you're buying audience out there is going to deviate based on how much of your company you want to sell, like for me. The first time I sold a portion of Snap Fitness, as I told you, 40% for 47 million. That was great for me. The 47 million went right into my personal checkbook. The business was spinning off cash. The company that came on board was private equity. I was doing five million of EBITDA, and they valued the company to add $100 million. You have to explain that. Because that's a wild value. Why value? But, and I'll tell you why, because they looked at it and they said, he has 600 licenses sold. He's got 325 stores open. So his funnel of store opening, it's just a matter of time before his EBITDA grows because he's already sold the licenses. He just hasn't realized the cash from these yet because they haven't opened yet. Okay, they call that embedded EBITDA. Okay, they made the right bet. So they had, they sold them 40% of the company. I got 47 million doing five minute EBITDA. The very next year, I did 7.5. In five years, I grew that company from 5 million of EBITDA to 20, actually 22. Okay, so we did the second exit. Now the second exit the company valued at 200 million. Okay, now I sold about 20% of that for about the same amount as I did the first time. Okay, so now think about, now here's an important component for your listeners. In hindsight, I wish I had sold more. Okay, I wish I had sold another 40% and kept 20 because the minute that you hand the keys over to the private equity, because you're no longer a majority shareholder. Yeah, that was a tipping point. Yeah. And, and regardless of what they say, it doesn't matter. It doesn't mean shit. Okay, at the end of the day, they're the king. They can control what what goes on within the company, control the direction, they control everything. So for me, in hindsight, I wish I had sold 40% rather than selling another 20% because I was thinking, I'm going to sell 20% for about the same amount as the first branch. And then I'm going to grow this thing and I'm going to sell my last 40%. You know, for a, I'm going to grow the company from 200 million to 300 or 400 million and then sell it. You know, you start selling 40% of a company or is that that or 400 million? That's a, that's 160 million. It's real money. It's so what happened? The, so what happened? That's a little 20%. The, the dynamics change, that company a year into it, they, they recapped the company. All right. So they went out, put, and put additional debt against the company. And I said, look, I wouldn't do it because the cost of money was about eight and a half percent. It was a lot. They put, they put 50 million of additional debt against the company. And I said, if anything goes on here, the company is going to damn near be insolvent because your interest alone on this is over a million dollars a month. Okay. So you're going to stress the company out. Well, then what happens? COVID. Okay. COVID came along. COVID came along. And for us, our good fortune, the bank approached us because they had a portfolio full of businesses that were getting completely blindsided. No one saw COVID. I mean, so the bank came to us and said, how bad is it? And they work with us because they don't want to lose everything either. They don't want to lose it. And the last thing they want is the keys to a large large house. Yeah, they're going to run it. No, they don't want that. So fortunately, they work with us. And, and you know, the management team that's in there now running the business, they do a great job. They're fighting their way back. And, and, you know, they'll get back. They're still not back to the number when I left the company, but which are seven years ago. But do you still own that 40%? No, now I own 22%. So you did just sell off. Does that a lower valuation? Yeah, what happened is during the COVID during the COVID piece, they part of the deal was they wanted us to put 15 million of cash back on the balance sheet. Okay. So for me, you know, 44% of that is a little over six points, something million. Yeah. So keep in mind, for me to give you six million, I have to make 12. Yeah. Okay. So I looked at it. And at the time, the direction of the company and everything, I said, look, I don't know that I want to double down. I'm just going to play, I'm going to pay the owner anymore. You got it. You're trusting someone else to do the right thing. And candidly also, you were not 100% okay with the decision that they made to take on that debt in the first place. No question. So you have like some had donations and reservations around what they're going to do. I did. And you know what? I gave them 3.2. I own 22% of the company and look, we'll have an exit here the next year or two and you know, all is good. But you know, it's not the way that I drew it up originally. You got to be careful. I think that people also, you know, hindsight's always 2020. And people forget that just because somebody has a lot of capital and it sounds like they know what they're doing and sometimes they do. Private equity doesn't always know what to do better than the founder. More often than not, they actually don't. I've seen several companies not do so well post exit in my own life. And you know what? It's to their credit. Look, some of the smartest people I know are in private equity here. Okay. And the group and my business partners and this, they're smart guys and they've managed to fight their way out of it. So I, you know, I applaud them for that. But historically, they tend to want to recap and get their cash off the table. So they, OPM, other people's money. Okay. So when they come in, they grow the business a little bit and then they want to recap the company and put more debt against the company, which is betting the farm, but it's a banks money. So it's not. And you know what? When they recap, so think about it, they put, they put 50 million of debt against the company. At that time, I own 44% of the company. So I'm getting 44% of 50 million. So here's another tranche of cash that you get. Okay. But it could very well be. Like during COVID, my equity could have went to zero. You know what I mean? It could have had the bank not stepped up and said, look, we want to help you fight your way out of this. You know, and they didn't do it for free. But thank God that they were in that mindset. And they had to, because as I said, private equity companies, their portfolios, it was a bloodbath out there. It was really tough. The first sale, how did you convince them that you wanted to keep majority of the company? Or was that something that they suggested? No, I was, look, when it's your company, you call the shots, it's your party. So I said it. Like where you, so I'll tell you, so said differently. Obviously, you had a couple different options for investors as well, because some people, especially the first company that they've ever built, they get bullied by the investor. Yeah. Well, I had no partners. It was me. I owned 100% of it. So it was, it was me. And I knew what I had. Okay. I knew what I had. And I knew I didn't know at the time that my company was a hundred million dollar company. I didn't know. I let private equity tell me okay, when they went through their evaluations, you just show them the numbers. When you're going to run a full process, you put your numbers out there and they will come back to you and say, you know, here's, here's what we think it's worth. Okay. So hundred million dollar evaluation. And, and you know what, they bet right. It was a good bet that they made. But that's, you know, and then, but I always knew that I was going to, that I was going to grow it. And, and my phone was ringing weekly. And what prompted me to want to sell a portion is I wanted to say, look, the first sale that I make, regardless of what history brings after this, it's game over for me. Okay. When you've got 47 million in your checkbook, your, it's game over. You're done. You're done. You're done. You're done. And, you know, unless you're spending money like a drunken sailor, but what not? But even, you know, 47 million, you're, you know, by the time taxes, Uncle Sam gets his pound of flesh, so call it, call it 30 million of cash working for you. I mean, look, you can, you can spend two, three million a year and never touch your money. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? So, yeah, high class problems. This podcast is brought to you in part by stash. Are you still putting off saving and investing because you'll get to it someday stash turns someday into today stash isn't just an investing app. It's a registered investment advisor that combines automated investing with dependable financial strategies to help you reach your goals faster. They'll provide you with personalized advice on what to invest in based on your goals. Or if you just want to sit back and watch your money go to work, you can opt into the reward winning expert managed portfolio. 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I want to talk about I want to talk about passion versus industry and what matters more and the reason why I asked is because you've built many different businesses you've built obviously gyms you have if I'm not mistaken you have a lodge in Tanzania you built lift brands for a period you were building it was s i e bowls as well there was a that was a company so you have all these different companies I'm assuming they've all achieved some level of success which is why you're probably talking about them because if they are if they weren't working I'm sure they wouldn't be on the on the books anymore but what do you think is more important is it passion for an industry or is there something else that allows you to achieve success across so many different fields I think what I'm doing now the consulting that I'm doing and what what so what what fires you up every day I am a firm believer in I think number one I think retirement's overrated I agree with that completely yeah so find something that you have balance but something that can get you out of bed in the morning that's going to fire you up whatever it is and it's not golf and fishing and working out okay something that is going to test your brain test your noodle force you to interact with people force you to be calculated in in in your business to keep you in the game okay I think I just think you've got to be in the game at whatever that game looks like through your lens of what what what really lights your fire so that's what I do I only get involved in things that I that I really love or that I can get passionate about so you know the lodge in Africa it's a good friend of mine and I own it 50 50 we've owned it for about 14 years and it wasn't easy you know it was a lot of grinding but now we're at a place where it's it's thriving and it's a five star lodge it's absolutely beautiful you were passionate about it I am and we have about literally 45,000 acres of of in this valley that is just pristine I mean when the migration comes through we have so many local animals that stayed there even through the migration imagine it's like this oasis in this valley running water beautiful terrain beautiful habitat for them were the will to be walking through their name some of them just go you know what I'm just going to crash I'm just going to stay here because I've got food I got green prairies I've got everything I need here I've got water source I'm just going to stay here so we got these local native wildlife there that is just spectacular so I love that and the reason I ask this is because there are some big names in business that they don't care about passion they just find the most commercially viable opportunity and they do it again and again and again and again and again and it could be is something is boring I mean I'll use people get I won't name names but people get passionate about money and success but you have a different point of view so why do you think that it's important to follow something that you're passionate about versus just finding the best possible business opportunity I think having balance is one thing getting in and doing the same thing again and again and again look if even if you're not passionate if your passion is making money then then great but I tell you what you'll never see a curse behind a coffin all right so make sure that you're checking the boxes some of the sacrifices that we all made as entrepreneurs early on where they'd be spending more time with the kids when they were growing up all of those things and those are some of the things honestly for me that I struggle with I you know I could have been a better father I could have been more present and when I talk to my kids today they go dad you were you know you're great I understand that the fruits of my effort are going to create a lifestyle for them long after I'm gone so that's the fruits of my effort and I'm happy that I'm able to do that but if I had it to do over again I probably would have dialed it back a little bit and been more present a little bit more like balance I was so yeah but I ran these companies with a level of paranoia and some of your listening audience won't understand that but when you when you grow up with nothing you're always looking around waiting for the other shoot-of-fall right you're you're just when how can this be going so good when when do I get blindsided yeah what was going to pump me like oh right it's no exactly because I said how does this how does this journey end how does so you have this level of paranoia and I've always used that paranoia in a way to to motivate me to out out hustle everyone to know what I mean just grit out hustle because I had no plan B and that mindset has served me well through my 40 some odd years of business you don't operate from the same place of of stress and anxiety now that when you start something new I don't but you know what I when I get involved with some companies I you know I can do absorb what that what that CEO is going through because I've been there you know and I and I try to eliminate the potholes for them because maybe I've got historical experience and how that story ends how that narrative ends so part of what I do is try to help people get on a straighter line to success eliminating some of the road rash that many of us entrepreneurs have gone through yeah I mean I think that there's something to be said for having that stress and that anxiety fuel you because I mean people can be fueled by different things but sometimes like the subconsciously you're just not going to put your all into it you know what you're exactly right and and I can tell you this there's many companies that I've worked with there's some companies I've worked with and they're and they're they're just great they just minor tweaks but there's other companies that I've worked with that have become complacent they made a hell of a lot of money owners made a hell of a lot of money but the business is complacent the owner's complacent he's no longer he's not driving the business anymore he's kind of riding the business and there's a big difference and he wakes up one day and he says hey wait a minute sales are declining more employee turnover why because his passions not there and passions contagious right and and just tell him look you know these things what we need to do with this business if you're not going to be in the trenches any more like you were that's okay but we need to have a transition we need to transition you out of the business let's get fresh blood in here who's going to grind and he's going to inspire those that your team because when they see sales sliding everybody's aware of it okay and you don't want to you don't want people walking around here with this level of paranoia when are when are the cuts coming you know that you don't need to do that because you've got a viable business here you're just you're no longer relevant you haven't changed and if you don't turn this ship around you're going to we're going to do one or two things you're going to make a strategic pivot and sometimes those pivots are so costly you're better off shutting this business down and reopening it because the effort is going to take you to pivot and that whole mindset and you also maybe you don't have that mindset anymore you got it you have your house your kids are done college are off in their own life you don't worry about money anymore your investments before the the lifestyle you want and then it's a conversation of well fine you don't have to do that to yourself but then my question would be okay you bring in fresh blood but how do you ever how do you ever get fresh blood younger talent to be as motivated as the founder of the business I it to me I've always found it comes with two things it comes with equity yeah giving them equity and give them equity equity means opportunity if you analyze what you got at the at the health club yourself club you got it so get give them equity but put my put milestones tied to that equity because believe me if you're if you're you know you can hire sheep or lions all right you hire a lion he wants to know where's the bar set how do I get more how do I get my equity in the company how do I do that you work with the team and then set the whole team up set not only this person who's going to be your successor but inspire the whole leadership team put caveats in there put benchmarks put put these you know flags in the ground on milestones you get to hear here here's what you get all right and then the other tough decision with this owner is look if you're not going if you're not going to do this if you if you're not going to be involved in the business that's okay then stay in arms like because we are where we are today because of you don't take that the wrong way okay you're not a bad person but you're not leaning in anymore so we are here today so here's where it's going to be a problem seen it happened far too many times they start getting momentum the culture changes a bit they're young and they're fiery and they're growing the business well what happens then the guy that's been sitting at home who you just removed he's sitting like an armchair quarterback and pretty soon he starts blowing in the ear because he still owns the company right it's still his call and he gets in there and he and he and he fucks up the mojo of what you've just turned around which you gotta be careful not to manage and then the that young blood loses all their enthusiasm yeah because they feel like they're they're they're getting undermined they just when just when they started to see this thing taking off like the good old days now you're coming in you're throwing a wrench at your you're you're you're starting to apply your old mentality of you know it's just it's like COVID okay I just had this this discussion this is like a year ago now but with COVID COVID forced everyone to work from home okay and the new work environment is from home I mean most corporations today their their staff is working part part in the office and part at home okay I mean at lift brands we probably have 30% of our staff that comes into the office every day 30% and if we woke up tomorrow morning and said look we're gonna everybody's gotta come back because we're not seeing the mentoring we're not seeing the culture of the company because where there's no more interaction if we did that we'd lose half our staff because the mindset of the generation that's working today they understand I'm gonna work from home I personally I don't think a four-day work week is far away okay they're just doing that now um which which many countries are doing it yeah right I don't think you're gonna see I think a four-day work week is is not far away at all but do you think that's because people don't do you think the people value other things outside of career now I think that that's probably a major part of the whole generation yeah it's the workforce there yet it's it's it's the whole workforce they want you know balance lifestyle lifestyle and money I mean it's today it's a damn just thing you'll have somebody that'll quit their job and you say well I'm sorry to hear that you're leaving what are you what are you gonna do well I don't know I haven't figured it out yet when I was a kid you would never leave your job without something else coming there you you know I you'd never do it people that have left the companies that that I've worked for and that I've built um it's actually the opposite they'll be interviewing on their lunch breaks no right so that and they they'll start a job before they even quit and they'll be they'll be so careful that they never go a week without a paycheck now it's just because I also think that there's a lot of factors that affect this I think the people don't look at home ownership the same way anymore because now it's out of out of reach for most people so if I'm not saving up to buy a home then maybe I'm just worrying about rent and then I don't need to worry about money as much because I'm not making I'm never gonna be able to afford this anyway so let me just optimize the lifestyle that I have now and there's a lot wrapped into that yes but I see it too and then they value other things and they want to travel and they want to work abroad and COVID kind of enabled it as well yeah there's a lot there's a lot out there right now and some people call it the conspiracy theories out there but you know is it blackstone that's buying up like all the all the real stones yeah so you got blackstone coming in buying up all the real estate you've got uh bills going through congress about talking about putting kill switches and cars and you know you see all of this stuff and all of it it's it's it's really interesting and you know people people today are saying oh you're just such a conspiracy theorist but if you look at what people were saying four or five years ago today they were they were all right yeah do you know what I mean so I don't like the idea of government getting involved I don't like the idea of government being able to control my car control my bank account lock everything I mean there's just more and more and more of that I know I know so I think that also people feel a little bit helpless no question yeah no question and if you if you don't have the financial means to get outside of that ring of control that's there I would not want to be working for the man and and have government be able to control everything my bank accounts my car but they but they already can't I mean we were talking before we press a court about what happened in Canada with the truckers they were protesting during COVID and then Trudeau froze a whole bunch of other bank accounts yeah I can't imagine which is wild like that to me seems like a complete abuse of power you're allowed to protest you're you're very much allowed to protest and then I guess his thought was well I can't arrest you for standing at sign on a picket line but this is what I can do at to me it's pretty messed up make life difficult well it's it makes life difficult considering the fact that truckers plus a whole bunch of other people do not have multiple bank accounts with all this money saved for all these emergency rainy day situations most people can most people are paycheck to paycheck right and they don't have multiple bank accounts right yeah many people do know yeah who work with W2 or 9 to 5 who have four bank accounts all all full of money you're not no right no it's not it's not how people live right so I don't know it's there's a lot of conspiracy theory I think a lot of people feel helpless I I feel like outside of just like control there's also just this financial hurdle that people feel they can't overcome I was looking at stats in Toronto where I'm from to to buy a detached home I think you have to have I think the household income meaning like it's either both people have to make close to 200 or you have to be making as a combined unit like three it's a stupid amount of money to buy a detached home when you think that my dad bought his first house cash when he was like 24 and he didn't have a PhD was just he was he was a he was a cop at the time so yeah affordability shifted it stresses everybody out I think a lot of people are like why am I busting my ass going into an office why am I working 70 80 hours a week for something that I don't even own and you have this whole apathy towards work and that's what adds to that right yeah it's so true and to be honest I mean I don't run a large company now and set the podcast it's pretty it's pretty tight group takes care of the show but it would stress me out hiring a couple hundred or a thousand employees in 2024 but I think it stresses a lot of people out for sure and sure maybe you have some words of wisdom the people that are hiring very large teams are hiring at scale because I've I've I'll tell you a funny story it's not so funny but it's reality I have a friend he hired a videographer W2 so nine to five salary got the guy to agree to a salary whatever was 70 80 I don't know how much he actually it was like market rate for videographer full time guy signs a contract first week of work he's like I'd actually like to renegotiate after he signed the contract first week first week he's like I actually want to get paid a little bit more and he's like what what are you talking about this isn't well first of all why didn't you do this before we signed everything and we got all the forms filled out and we got so that to me is symbolic of how people approach work and it's very different yeah I've never even in my life thought to renegotiate a salary full time position the week after I get hired that's right that's yeah insane to me right I'll on negotiate before I get an offer or while I'm getting the offer not after I signed so people just approach works and authority differently completely so what do you do about it for an entrepreneur that's trying to figure out how to get like a plus talent around them and to keep them I'm a I'm a big fan of look if you can't if you can get away without hiring employees just because of all the employees I'm a big fan of 1099 independent contracts yes I'm a big fan of it the whole organization well as much of it like nautical bulls when I started that company when that when I when I got involved with that company they're they had two stores when I left the company they had 73 stores open and every one of our employees they weren't even employees every one of them was 1099 every one of them worked from home and here's the in here's the difference they all work from home so there's no office rent okay so think about the the lean and mean company okay you had 72 stores open in three years you've got we sold a hundred and I think I sold a hundred about 170 licenses so 73 open 170 licenses well on its way three years into it no corporate office so just spins off a lot of cash and when it comes to exit that company whether somebody's gonna buy it or you buy someone it's imperfect company for someone to acquire because they can just step right into it and pick up the revenue they're not they're not burdened with office rents and contracts and covenants and things of that nature so okay so you 1099 all the employees you know and here's what you need to learn you need to learn that instead of paying people on on hours and chair yeah you're paying them on performance here's the reality for us we have certain things that we wanted our marketing people to do as an example here's the things that we need you to do here's the pulse that you need to make here's how you're managing the social media here's the creative that you make available to all of our franchisees so you've got all the things that they need to do doesn't matter to me I don't care if you do it from nine in the morning until five at night or if you do it from midnight until eight in the morning I don't care so part of the criteria of being an independent contractors you can't create their schedule you can just create the work description of the work that you want them to do so you're giving them a contract and there it is and it's month to month so I tell look it's a month to month contract and it auto renews so if they want to leave I'm not I'm not there's no fight go there's no holidays now with my people at nautical bowls I paid for their health insurance it was part of their 1099 okay but I tell them hey look I'm gonna pay for your health insurance it's not you're not an employee I it's my right as as as as an individual if I want to pay for your health insurance I can do that just like if I wanted to pay for your health insurance and nothing there's nothing stopping me from paying for your health more so yeah so we did that for all of our employees we paid for it and at the end of the year with their 1099 that that became taxable income for them they weren't actually paying it but they were the benefit of having health insurance okay I understand so you can do that today you find that when you 1099 an employee are they as motivated as if they were a w2 is there anything else you got to think about yeah because for me I helped them most of the people that that we were hiring at nautical bowls as an example they were young individuals so I tell them look there's things that you can do now that you're an independent contractor there's things that you can do for instance you could take a portion like if you're renting an apartment and you have a den and the den is your office you could take that square footage of your dust you sort of you teach them like all the ways to maximize benefit percent your laptop computer we can write that off your your your cell phone bill portions of it you know I make them I make them I get them to a place where they're keeping more of their money and at the end of the day that's what they want they want to they want to keep more of their check and honestly one of the best one of the best uh uh well he was the founder of a company that I worked at um one of the best leaders that I had what he did is he was it was a it was a smaller company about ten million dollars in revenue and uh and obviously you don't have enough money and then ten million dollar company and have pensions for people and and stuff like that even no one does them anymore but he would show people how to invest money and he'd show people about how to put money into like the you know the S&P 500 and look at historical returns and and all the different types of funds and index funds and so he was like financial education and and I'm sure if he had the means he'd try and find a way to do like our uh 401k matching but it was a small company so it's like you this is what we got I can teach you how to invest your money out of your paycheck so that you can make you know x percent per year um and that's going to be in his mind it was more useful than any uh 401k contributions and I don't I don't disagree with him I think that that's something that more leaders more entrepreneurs more founders should do for their employees because that education alone kind of like what you're doing with the is the way you can write off this is your home office is the square footed that education alone be huge for people right and they could they could take with it they can take that information we have anywhere yeah now for for sure I mean those are the little like and that's part of being a CEO and and helping people find their way to the promised land of financial freedom is sharing with them your firsthand experiences on on those type of things how can you optimize it a big thank you to indeed for supporting success story because hiring people is one of the hardest things you're ever going to have to do as an entrepreneur as a founder as somebody who's trying to 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juggling multiple platforms or waiting weeks for the right candidate and how fast is indeed in the minute I've been talking to you 23 hires were made on indeed according to indeed data world there's no need to wait any longer speed up your hiring right now with indeed and listeners of success story will get a 75 dollar sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at indeed dot com slash clary terms of conditions do apply just go to indeed dot com slash clary a huge thank you to net suite for supporting today's episode now what does the future hold for business if you ask nine experts you're going to get ten answers bull market bear market inflation up inflation down honestly at this point you just need a crystal ball but until we get one over 41,000 businesses have found the next best thing they future proof their businesses their operations with net suite by oracle which is the number one cloud ERP imagine having your accounting your financial management your inventory your 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and I realized that half of my US shows weren't available in Canada super annoying flipped on Nord VPN within seconds I got access to everything now it's not just about watching shows what makes Nord VPN a game changer really just imagine having this personal security guard for your entire digital life with just one click you're connected to one of their 7100 servers across 118 countries I mainly use it for accessing streaming services when I travel but I've also saved hundreds on flight bookings by checking prices from different countries and their new threat protection pro blocks all those endless pop ups and suspicious links before they even get to me and what I love most is how simple it is one account 10 devices so laptop phone iPad everything's covered and the speed honestly it's so fast that I forget that I'm even using a VPN and the best part I've got a special offer just for success story listeners so head over to nord VPN dot com slash success and you'll not only get their best discount but they'll throw in an extra four months on the two-year plan and don't worry about commitment because they offer a 30-day money back guarantee the link is in the episode description trust me it's worth checking out especially if you travel or stream content regularly that's nord VPN dot com slash success I want to I want to just pick a picture brand on a couple of few last topics about wealth about achievement about success by the way actually we went into a lot of before I sort of pivot what do we not go and do what did I not ask you about that I should have asked you what's the mother words of wisdom that our top of mind for you right now well yeah you know what I think for your audience if they're if they're interested in getting into business is getting getting into it in the right head space I think a lot of times people they want to be their own boss they want to get into business but they don't understand the sacrifice and commitment that comes with it and the stress the the sleepless nights you know those those components a lot of people underestimate the pressures of running of running a business and meeting payrolls and doing those things so it's a yet you know it's um and I think talking about it before they get into it so they're kind of they can brace them getting the right head space that way when it comes they could say you know what we talked about this this is what it is you know and there's some setting the expectation you got it letting letting them understand that this is part of the this is part of the journey and rather than ducking from it embrace it because this is the challenges and these challenges never go away okay it might it might come in a different light a little different circumstance but it'll come in multiple times throughout your business career because that's just how being an entrepreneur is so you you have to embrace it and understand it and not freak out about it not walk around kicking the garbage can and you know screaming around the office that's not that's not productive right yeah that's smart I do like that the idea of surviving real conversations about what entrepreneurship is so that people aren't just like completely uh surprised when shit hits the fan because it will it will and I get people too they can't they can't make it in fact and my book impossible hill I talk about the you know preparation and the the first thing the first step of any change is making a plan just thinking about it okay where one day you wake up and you say I'm I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired I'm sick and tired of getting up at nine o'clock on somebody else's time I'm sick and I'm whatever your reasoning is so that's the first step of understanding I got to make a change okay beautiful second part is what do we want to change what's our plan like what all right well we we come to this conclusion this sucks and I don't like my life anymore doing this so I'm gonna change step one but then you don't want to step from there to something else that's a little different color but the same headache right so thinking about what you want to do but the third step is the most important and that is you have to make the jump and I can't tell you the amount of people that I work with over the years they do step one they get to step two but when it comes to step three actually making the jump they don't do it they'll Peter you know what I just had you know man I had some sleepless nights and I just I just wasn't feeling it you know I wasn't and you know and it's and in some people say well it's you know it's it's it's god it's the vine intervention and I listen to them and I say look it's not divine invention you're you're apprehensive because you're doing something you've never done before that's a perfectly normal headspace you know doubt is is a dream killer okay you're not keep in mind what we talked about here you're not bending the farm okay you're not bending the farm you are making a transition and we have planned for this we have set money aside for this so when you transition into this job this money is here to help offset you as you ramp this up right so we kind of have to go through those things but there's a lot of people they can never make the jump and that's okay and they just let this apprehension just build up and then it to the point where they say well I'm just not going to do it because and then when they when they make the decision I'm not going to do it and they just fall right back in their old space they come to realize hey look maybe this space isn't so bad because here's the benefits of it you are nine to five because where you're stepping into it's not nine to five you own a business it's seven days a week 24 hours a day get your head around that I'll come on Peter nobody works hey I promise you it's seven days a week 24 hours a day it never leaves you it's you think about it a night before you go to bed you think about it first thing in the morning it's seven days a week if you own the business and if you're gonna be if you're gonna be a warrior if you're gonna be a warrior in your business that's the mindset you gotta be because you can't be a quitter you've got to be a fighter okay and you got to give it whatever it takes because you're gonna have those tough moments and if you cave every time you have a tough moment you're never gonna win you know I always say that entrepreneurship is probably not for you if you cave every time you have a tough moment yeah or you you know you're walking you know you can't handle stress you're crying you're freaked out you gotta get couch time because you're just a fucking mess right tell him look it's not it's you what you're contriving in the six inches between your ears you understand it's all it's all it's self-fulfilling you understand that you're you're in your own head okay what you're visualizing here and what you think is happening out there it's two different things what is going to happen out there is only gonna be the result if you stay where you're at you've got to make these change there's things that you can do that can offset that that can that can deflect some of that risk that's that coming you're just freaking out and you're not thinking you got to start thinking do you know what I mean play offense quit playing fucking defense all the time you gotta play some offense people don't get it it's a tough idea for people to wrap their head around because they get too stuck in their own head I mean this is this is why this is why it's important to have mentors people around you I mean even sometimes like Gina like my my better half when I'm when I'm really spiraling and I've been doing this for a minute and no one's immune because there'll always be points where shit is the fan then you're just like overthinking everything but having people close you whether or not it's we're not wife girlfriend advisor mentor whatever having somebody can just pull you out of that spiral is also helpful I mean it's tough to do it yourself you got to admit it's tough to do it yourself sometimes but and just having some having somebody pull you aside and say okay yeah let's take a deep breath let's get out of that thing so you almost have to remove yourself from it look at it and have somebody break it down and say look this is what we're dealing with it's not that we're because we're not going to let it get to there it's not we're not going to let it get to that point but that's this is what we have and here's what we need to do right and and it's just having somebody have that moment that that voice of reason from historical experience they've been there done it and you know how the story ends and you can help them through it that's that's what mentoring is all about and that's that's an important point for all of your people out there if they're going to have somebody who's them who's truly a mentor it's somebody that's truly going to lean in and understand what it is that you're dealing with you know sometimes it's easy to take just a broad brush all well you need to do this this and this well look you can't you can't do that because it's a very dynamic business world that we live in today with AI and all these great tools that are there it's a different dynamic so you got to make sure who's mentoring you who you're trusting that they're in and they understand the full context of what what it is that you're going through and what's going on within the dynamics of the business you can't you can't mentor someone in a business if you're not going to get into the business and understand it because you can't arm chuck quarterback what's going to happen is you're only going to see the big things as a mentor you're only going to see the big things you're not going to see the granular details you're not going to see the risk the hidden risk why because you didn't do your homework as a mentor you've been there you've hit one out of the park you're not really leaning in you're just kind of doing that you know you know what I'm saying I do and I think this is why I have I have such an issue with people that mentor at scale when they're dealing with like tons of entrepreneurs at the same time yeah maybe there's some high level wisdom that you can teach over to 500 different people that are going through your program but to really make an impact you do have to you do have to be in the weeds you got to be there and then it just like the friend of mine like I said my wheelhouse is franchising okay franchise and doesn't matter what it is okay my I built my career I built my empire in the fitness space but looking three years and and I'm not with not equal bowls anymore but in three years I took that from an idea no franchise locations to 70 73 open stores and 170 licenses sold so that's all franchise model right that that's all franchising it doesn't matter from selling fitness or assayables okay so franchising is my is my wheelhouse but my one of one of the the people who now is a very very good friend of mine he has a a a a home healthcare monitoring business and I don't that that's not my wheelhouse but what is my wheelhouse is the block and tackling of creating a business and entity from there all the way through the exit so how do we position it do we do we sell in and right now his his question is do I do I sell a portion of the company to take some chips off the table but he's growing this business so fast I mean I just said look if it were me because the the the first capital that you sell is going to be the most expensive you know what I mean and you don't need it you're spinning off so much cash right now take a take a small loan use it for whatever you need it for but he's he'll exit this business in the next two to three years and it'll be literally you know at least a half billion dollar company pretty amazing yeah but I mean that's where I mean if you're looking for mentors you don't always need just one either so you can help somebody with franchising you can help somebody figuring out exit strategy you can help somebody with a lot of different things but there's a lot but if I if I was going to ask something outside your wheelhouse you wouldn't be the right bit either which is why I don't like the idea of just having one mentor you should have multiple people that you learn from and and listen to and and I think that you shouldn't put any one person on a pedestal either I think that's a smart idea he's and he's got it he's he's put to he's got there's four of us that we serve on his executive okay so right there you have four people that all have their own experience they're all gonna help yeah you got it we're you know it works well for them but he's created a great business I love it you know you mentioned one thing that I thought was an interesting point you said when people go on this journey of starting something there's a couple different reasons as to why they become entrepreneurs in your opinion are there some reasons that are valid reasons to become an entrepreneur and other reasons that are not valid reasons to become an entrepreneur yeah the you know the naive one the naive and it's typically the young person I'm tired of working for the man okay we'll tell me what does that look like well you know I don't like that I got to be at a place at a certain time and this and that so okay so you want to be your own boss yes I do that's that's exactly what I want to be okay so they don't understand that when you're starting a business that it's going to be a hell of a lot more work in that nine to five that they had with so many more it's not just that you're gonna be there working longer hours it's that you're gonna be working for less pay in most cases early on and so I try to get them into the head space of it because it's not it's not some people just don't think about it they think I can I'm gonna be my own boss is gonna be easy I can if I want to go on a trip I go on a trip fishing golfing I'm gonna have all this free time that's the fruits of your effort from your hard work definitely not when you're in it not when you're in it and not when you're a startup and you're doing it with grassroots you know bootstrapping old-fashioned way and that's what I love too I love involved with companies where they are bootstrapping it it's not a guy going out he's gonna raise a couple million dollars he's gonna hire a staff everybody's getting fat salaries and he's got a frickin burn rate of you know 50 grand a month burn rate and you know that's not that's not for me that's not that's not my guy yeah that makes sense okay I want to I want to pull some sort of lost pieces of wisdom out of you so you grew up watching your dad run a grocery store what was your version of success back then and how has it changed to today you know when you grow up with very little I mean for me I'm a I'm a Christian and I I remember look it's embarrassing but you know God I'm sure rolls his eyes at me regularly but what I remember praying to God he God just let me make a hundred thousand dollars a year I will never ask for another thing okay because that was so much money that I couldn't even imagine it that if I was if I would make a hundred grand a year I would want for nothing all right so that's the that's the naive side of me that you know you know early on and what does that journey look and feel like so it's I was always being that I didn't have much money I was always motivated by money look that's the honest truth embarrassing or not it was true I was more like that was a lot of the people's truths too I was driven by money and and that was I get I get asked often and Peter you know what are you what are you one your biggest regrets and my it's the canned response that I say all the time is I wish I would have danced more in my career and what I mean by that is I sacrifice so much in that journey because I didn't want to be sloppy at what I was doing if I was going to be in it if I was going to be running in if this is my baby if I was the face of the brand I was not going to be sloppy about it I was always going to show up and and give it and give it an honest days work and if that meant seven days a week you know 15 hour day I would do it so that was just that was how I was raised and I was a product of that environment so today in hindsight and it's easier to to to for me to take a different perspective today because I've I financially you know one whatever that looks like you know I've won the financial battle but there's still remnants of that you know paranoia that that that still come in but I use it to my advantage you know I use it to motivate me and to get up and and and still fight the good fight and no I've I've heard this from a few people when they get a first big check they get massive anxieties they don't want to screw it up did you feel that um I don't the the first big check it wasn't anxiety it was excitement right that I it was excitement and a little bit of um you know disbelief I I knew that I was capable of it all right I mean I can I can tell you I can tell you exactly where I was with literally I was I was walking down the fairway of of a golf course on the first tee and my phone rings and it was my my accounts and my attorneys who would they just call me to say hey Peter the the funds have been the funds have landed in your account so as it thank you and I went to my little walls Fargo app and and saw the 47 million sitting my checking account and my eyes welled up a little bit not was golfing with some buddies and I knew that it was a big day for me but that that moment of looking at my personal checking account and seeing 47 million in there it was so overwhelming for me because it was suddenly it was that kid I was that I was that kid who went to school in a true school house youngest of seven quit college I mean if I was if I was a stock you would have shorted me for sure right and it was just that that validation that I I did it I actually did it right so I was an elation and obviously you know a very memorable moment for me but you know today as I sit back and look at that I appreciate that moment but then I also reflect that one of the things I'm most proud of is I'm I'm still that kid that that went to school in a two room schoolhouse and grew up in a small town yes I may I may drive some nice cars and I may live in nice homes but I'm a I'm a blues gene t-shirt kind of guy I don't need to flex and I'm the same guy I always I try to be humble and kind and generous those are qualities that I I try to take with me that that's who I hope I'm defined by I'm hope I hope I'm I hope that one day when when I die I hope that that my friends say that he was you know he was there for us when we needed him he was insightful he was you know considerate and compassionate and passionate about anything he did but those are the great qualities it's not some of the bullshit that comes with the tangible things that you acquire so your relationship with money I think you're you've maintained the pretty healthy relationship with money like after you've had these massive wins how do you make sure that your kids have the same relationship with money as you did growing up or they respected well they you know my my oldest son is just turned 30 and my daughter is 28 and I would have had a son who would have been 26 but they were you know all three of them they're very compassionate and compassionate people and normal they're they're normal they're not spoiled little trust fund babies they're they're normal do you are you gonna give them anything yes yes for sure and I and I and I do I do right now because I I hope that you know I don't want my kids to to go through their 20s and 30s like I did broke okay you know what I mean it's if I'm if if I can't do all that I've done financially if I can't impact my children and this goes from my children to my ex-wife to my future wife to any of my philanthropic endeavors if I can't have an impact on the world after all I've been given what an embarrassment I mean when I'm at the I hope that when it's my day at the pearly gates that God says hey Peter well done you know I not look at all I did for you and look at what little you did for for anyone or anything that would be a miserable and huge failure in my in my opinion yeah it's interesting how people I agree with you I just think it's interesting how people that make a ton of money handle that succession with their kids because it's not an easy again these are not things that are taught right so you got to figure it out no and you know what I mean there are there are some businesses you know a lot of the things that I'm involved with like I put I put when I have an exit from any of these companies that I can solve for I I put the money to work for me okay but there's other businesses that are there they're physically there for instance my toss a lodge in Africa right I mean these are these are things that my kids are going to inherit right and and yeah and I talk to my oldest son about that just like some real estate I own some rental stuff that I own that these are the things that will come with and you know how you manage those things you know having managing cash flow of properties rental incomes you know is there is there a strategy you have so that your kids don't end up spoiled is it making them work is it what is it they what they learned early on when they when they were so faster they're only just watching this yeah yeah when they were 16 I made them go get jobs yeah so I mean they because I wanted them to experience getting up showering and showing up on time for someone else accountability okay accountability and then working with sometimes you know colorful personalities that aren't necessarily the most rational right because that's the dynamics of the workforce out there of just people in general so I wanted them to experience that but now I'm at a place where you know if I have a business that I think my kids can have a positive impact with I I have them get involved you know which is a real blessing you know I work I work with my son in which I love I love the opportunity without what a blessing and then my my daughter too she she did some work for me at nautical bulls but now she's she lives in Savannah and she you know she's just looking for her next thing but she's she's fine she's married you know great gal has a great husband and then and now the good head on their shoulders and that's tough that's that's the most important thing she has that both of them have amazing amazing head on their shoulders rational you know critical thinking skills they use good judgments and they're they're really really good good people what would be the advice that you will give somebody who thinks making X amount of money will make them happy look I mean as cliche as it sounds is the truth yeah that money can't buy a happiness look that is the truth I will also tell you if you have an option between money and being poor take the money okay right life is easier when you have money because it's one box that you can check you know and and I think people that have money that that continue to beat the drum of money can't buy happiness to just just for me my personal perspective on it there's a little bit of bullshit in that personally I just say look let's face it when you have money you have choices you have you have more choices you get to have choices the cars you drive the clothes you wear where your kids go to school the house that you live in the trips you go on you have choices okay and you can insulate yourself from some of the noise that goes on in society today you can buffer that because you have financial resources to buffer yourself from that nonsense I'll you know some of the bullshit that has gone on the last four years right where you know it's been crazy town let's face it yeah and if you want your kids to go to a good school or if you want just good role models if you want like just good energy around your family you have the opportunity to buy it it's nice you got it but but the you know the other side of it the anxiety the pressures the societal pressure that just people in general have I mean that doesn't go away and you know the relationships that you have the hurt feelings the pressure that you have on whatever it looks like you know and pressure is a mindset and that's that a lot of times when I deal with people that have struggled with pressure it's it's it's self-inflicted pressure so when I'm trying what I try to help them through is look the pressure that you're putting on yourself is is only from the person you see in the mirror you're that self-inflicted pressure from you're trying to please somebody you're trying to in you know you're trying to prove something to your your parents maybe or to yourself you know and you can use that in a positive way but just don't let it beat you down and turn you into something that you're not well the reason I ask about relationship with money and if you know if somebody's thinking if I make this much money what we'll do for my life yeah it gives you freedom but one thing that I think people get stuck in it's almost like a loop where they don't come from money and then they find a way to make money but then they can't stop and then they just keep and they keep pursuing things just I mean any billionaire in the world has a little bit wrong with them because the amount of stuff you have to subject yourself to to get to that point is just ridiculous I mean you even made a point 30 million dollars you never have to work again for most people they can't spend the interest that you'd be making off of 30 million dollars in a year unless you're really trying right two million dollars you have three million dollars you have lifestyles phenomenal for most people so I think it's important to understand you have money is important money buys freedom but also know your number and then also know what season of life you're in is it the season where you are hustling working unlimited hours a week and if it's not that season then maybe the season is something else but just I think it's better to just understand all of these ideas so that you don't just get stuck working for just working with no relationship no no spouse no relationship with your kids physical health mental health has gone down the shitter until you die which is also not good yeah it's it's interesting how people many people live a life of isolation um and that's an environment that that put themselves in and look you got to you got to put them you know back out there and I deal with that I deal with that a fair amount with with people that have maybe maybe they they had a company they they acquired some level of wealth they changed now they're divorced and they're you know mid fifties or older and they feel somewhat isolated they they they're out of the they're out of the game right and and they don't want to be that guy that's because they put their head down they built and they put their head up and then realize that everybody else has left them you got it everyone's gone yeah their their their wife has gone you know he's gone he's checked out he thinks the grass is greener he's got money now yeah more people are paying attention to them for the wrong reasons yeah and you have to figure out and he's successfully who's actually paying attention to you authentically or who's just trying to get something from you it's you see it all the time and and the more you have the more people you know poke at you and they want they want they buy it for your time and and uh it it comes with it you can't let it you can't let it uh call us you to the point where you don't open yourself up to people but it's it's disheartening when people come up and they're you know hey Peter I I read this or I saw this about you you know great to meet you blah blah blah and you're having a nice conversation with them and say look a would you mind looking at this for me at you know so it's a little different I thought they were just coming up to be nice but really there was a real underneath all of that there was kind of a hidden agenda and yeah and I've learned that when people can come up to me and they and they cite some things that happen in my life the silver lining that I put in it is what at least they did a little homework there's probably a pitch coming after that homework but they did a little homework so they didn't just come up and blindside me they they did a little homework on me and my family or whatever it might be so I tried to get in the pen for the doubt I never I never am offended by people asking you know no I don't I try not to because I think of what a blessing that that someone would want you know my opinion or want me to so I got to spin it that way otherwise you become cynical right yeah you're very positive I appreciate that you're very positive I try to be because I know where I came from right and when you know when you when you don't lose sight of where you came from you can appreciate the journey that you've been on you appreciate all the life experiences the good and the bad and the hurt in all of it that comes with success and you and then you realize as you get older you realize perspective and that is life and none of us are safe from it we're all going on going to experience life in a different way and it is what it is you just got a tuck and roll with some of it yeah um I want I want people to to be able to connect with you and sort of like sort of follow along with like what you're building next and if they want to work with you they can reach out as well so where where should people connect with you where do you like to send people socials I send them right to my Instagram the good Instagram yeah you're putting a whole bunch of podcasts up on there too I'm not following yeah yeah it's Instagram is bet which is just Peter underscore fountain and that's where people in and you know if you've got questions or whatnot that's that's the place to reach me I love it um is there anything else that you wanted to go into no I think you know this a good interview there's a there's a lot of media on the bone here for I know it was a lot that's why I know so the you know just for your people out there for your entrepreneur audience a lot of a lot of the audience they are on yeah so for your entrepreneurial audience out there the for for anyone that's curious about what I do now so what I do now as I said seven years ago I step down as the CEO of lip brands the one of the first calls I got was from Forbes I'm a Forbes masterclass instructor and and what that's afforded me to do is people reach out to me when they have companies and they're trying to grow the company either either they're trying to either grow it and they want help with the trajectory or they're trying to exit or their sales are flat and they need to pivot whatever it might be and and for those people that might that might find value in in me sharing my experience and helping them get to the promised land of whatever that exit looks like to reach out to me that because I'm not saying that I will that I will commit to you because as as I mentioned you before we started recording what I'll do is I'll work with you for a couple of days I'll understand your business and if I like it then I'll get involved with you and when I get involved with you I'm committed to you I'm very selective and very selective and I do it for equity in your company and I only do it for equity I don't draw any salary and the only caveat is if we we're going to build your company because if I'm going to get involved the the goal is to grow your company and to exit so there's got to be something there that within five years that one of two things need to happen either a you're going to buy me out of my equity because you want to keep your business for your family or we're going to exit and if it's the exit I help you through that process as well which I've done three times and by the way I mean if somebody has built a large company they they understand this but I'm just going to put it out there that's a really good deal it's a great deal that's a very good deal yeah because most people like you're retired you're retired now I mean you have investments and whatnot but you are not an operator in any companies right now all I do is I mentor and I lay out I lay out strategic plans I mean even if this is keeping this is keeping you just keeping you busy but this is like this is fun I love it I love talking shop yeah that's why I love doing I love doing podcasts I love talking shop right and and it drives my my my soon to be wife it drives her a little crazy because I you know I like I like getting in the weeds and and talking shop with people you know what I mean and understanding their business how they get into it where's it at today where would you like it to be how are you going to exit the business you know those are all fun conversations like to have a 3x exited entrepreneur built a company well over nine figure valuation and to not be drawing an advisor salary is very rare yeah and here's what I do I mean from my perspective context I think I think Kevin O'Leary doesn't even talk to you unless you give him 10% a Kevin O'Leary is like 10% plus I think there's a retainer in there as well yeah he's he's expensive yeah no kidding but look for my from my perspective you know the the equity that I take in these companies is anywhere from 20 to 30% but you know my goal and it's just an it's an easy never above my goal is to build a company that's 50 hundred million dollar company or more that's that's my goal I'm not I'm not in it to create a five million dollar company that's not my jam most people I think if they're looking to work with you they're also not in it for that exactly yeah yeah and the and together we lock arms even nautical bulls as an example I grew that company I put all the infrastructure in place I grew it and I and I loan the company over half million dollars you know of of working capital okay that's not something I do but I believed in that company and and yeah I love yeah it's very good so if people are interested they can reach out to you do on Instagram Instagram is just DM yeah just just Instagram me and say hey Peter I saw your podcast yeah I'd like to talk to you about my company and what's up you know that's so other was truly I got you they leave me their number and I'll call them otherwise you know they're trying to email me and and you know if I like what that what I see I'll get into my cell number and you know that we connect good good um I'll I'll ask this is one last sort of like idea that we can sort of chat about quick because I know that it's sort of something that you focus on a lot we did not talk about we probably do a whole other podcast we talk about franchising we didn't talk about like growth sales marketing we didn't talk about anything like normal stuff that's fun it's for another day you can come back you're down the street you can come back that's easy it's perfect um but I was going to say just some like last words of wisdom for entrepreneurs obviously it is very specific based on what they're building but general ideas on growth and scaling what are some things that you'd like to leave people with if you have a business that is and it has nothing to do with how much cash is a cost to get into this business but if you have a business that is filling a void in society today and and here's a lot of people need to understand there's a lot of there's a lot of opportunities out there where you're just going to take something that's right there and you're going to enhance it and make it better and you can build a business around that some people think they have to invent the next paperclip or you know what I mean they got to invent something that's never been seen before hey look find something that's that's being embraced and if you can make it better that's step number one step number two trajectory how do you get growth I'm a big fan of franchising why think about it for me I built thousands of gyms if I was going to do that privately I would have had to have several hundred million dollars to do that okay literally all right so that that whole journey is a whole other context for me franchising what does that mean I mean believe it or not I started snap fitness with about 400,000 cash okay 400,000 cash is what I put into I built a couple of clubs leases whatnot and built that into a 200 million dollar company with multiple exits along the way all right so it can be done so I tell people look franchising is a great venue is a great vehicle and you can go from think about it with me with snap fitness I took an idea to my first exit which was six years later so an idea on a legal pad to my first exit six years a company valued at a hundred million dollars that is how fast it can happen it's fast and it's unbelievable okay and with some of these concepts that's what you have to do you're kind of you're kind of going to get in and get out all right because you get in you're ride that thing and you the goal is to sell it just before their crescendo okay because everything has a life to it they they all do right and you exit and you're going to get a premium on that exit because everything that you're showing is up into the right so I'm a big fan of franchising finding a way finding a way to grow as quick as possible leverage other people's money leverage something so that you're not because you can build a business fast you can build a business slow you can build with lots of friction as little friction as possible just make it easier on yourself and you know what with franchising there is there's a huge appetite out there in the general population of people that want to be their own boss and the reason they want franchising is because it gives them an opportunity to step into a business in a box so theoretically if you've done your job right as the franchise or you eliminated much of the road rass and hesitation and challenges that come with a startup business that's the goal is get into a franchise and and and that's that's my wheelhouse is creating systems and processes for smooth sales process real estate process build out marketing customer growth retention exit yeah I love it all those things that will be a second podcast we can do that that'd be a whole thing yeah and we can do another one to where we talk about uh we can wrap it in the one we talk about franchise scale growth talk about some of the problems that you deal with you do some case studies of the people that you're working with that be fun too yeah okay um last question I like to ask uh so you've had an incredible career um we've spoken a little bit about your family as well and your kids and they're killing it right now and they're doing quite well um but if you only had the opportunity to pass one lesson onto your kids out of everything that you've ever learned what would be that lesson will be the most important thing you want to leave them with boy there's so many but if I only had one thing I would say don't don't don't underestimate the value of peace in your life okay don't don't underestimate the the value of that and so what is peace well that's for each person to decide where they find their peace but wherever you find your peace acknowledge where that is and hold it close because it's easy to get lost in in the whole um dynamics of being an entrepreneur assuming that that's your audience you know if you're if you're not in business and whatnot it's much easier to find your peace and your comfort right but when you're in business there's so many other effects that come into play that can undermine that that peace that you're looking for and you don't want to get to a place where your whole life has been a freaking grind and you have little pockets of peace along the way do you know what I mean so that that's from my own my own as I look back and reflect you know there are times I wish I wish I had held my peace you know lantern a little bit closer but I'm a product of how I grew up you know what what's again level of paranoia came from nothing and fear of loss all play a part of it you know fear of loss is a big part because when you have it it's fear of my gosh what if this all disappeared tomorrow could I adjust and fight my way back you know what I mean yeah but I think that's I think that's very wise I think that being able to being able to just make space for peace in your life because if you're going to a lot of people listen to this are entrepreneurs they're going to build anything it'll be very easy to lose that for sure you got to you got to understand what you're where your peace comes from and you got to it's it's got to be sacred it's got to be you know I love I love one of my favorite pastimes is playing golf okay carve time out to do that okay because it's unhealthy yes you're gonna have sometimes where you can't do it you have to shift schedules or whatnot but find your peace acknowledge it and then hold it close