Dr. Emily Bashah - Clinical Psychologist & Founder of Bashah Psychological Services | The Psychology of Terrorism

Today, my guest is Dr. Emily Basha, a renowned psychologist, author, and podcast co-host who specializes in clinical and forensic psychology. She has a private practice in Scottsdale, Arizona, where she provides cutting-edge psychotherapy, psychological evaluations, and expert testimony for various legal cases. She has worked on high-profile cases involving domestic terrorism, capital offenses, and first-degree murder, as well as immigration, civil, and family law matters. She has testified in federal, state, and local courts, and is consulted for the FBI, the Department of Homeland Security, and the Department of Justice. She is also a sought-after consultant in training for public, private, and government sectors offering workshops, on topics such as addictive ideologies, cultural competence, and trauma-informed care. Dr. Basha is the co-author of the best-selling book, addictive ideologies, had a break free from the hysteria and find your purpose, and the co-host of the popular podcast, the hysteria report, where she discusses current events, politics, and psychology from a critical and nuanced perspective. She is a strong, and to prep for the next year of more revenue, more customers, more deals. To bring in more business, this Q4 and beyond, you need sales software that helps you score, and top tools are all inside the new HubSpot sales hub, with the customizable prospecting workspace, smart, deal management, and AI-powered apps. You can take total control of your sales operation, and manage your people, and your pipeline with ease. They've built it, and designed it all into an accelerated workflow, baked right into your HubSpot CRM. And when you pair a sales hub, with other hubs, like HubSpot Smart CRM, your team will be on the same page across the entire customer journey. Leads don't slip through the cracks. Stop sticking to the same old strategies, and start closing more deals, because the best time to score is Q4. Make the switch to HubSpotSales Hub at HubSpot.com slash sale. Yeah, thank you so much, Scott, for having me on your show. So Paul Johnson, my partner, and I co-authored the book, Addictive Ideologies, finding meaning and agency when politics fail you. And in our book, we really looked at, we studied genocides, terrorism, and extremism across the world to find what are the similarities, what are the foundational building blocks that gets a society to that place. We also did a case study and analysis of my parents surviving persecution as ethnic and religious minorities in Iraq as Jews during the rise of the Bath Party when Saddam Hussein was rising to power. And at that time, my parents have been there since 500 BC, as far as we can trace back, we are Arab Jews, as much of an oxymoron as that sounds, we are, we are both and in that existence. And my father, we write a story about my father's experience, he was 17 years old, he's writing his bicycle, and he approaches the Tahirir Square, which is the main square in Baghdad. And he sees a big commotion, a lot of people gathering, so he gets a closer look, and there's a bunch of security there preventing him from going further. But he sees that there are gallows, and that there are men and boys that are being hung in the public square, and there's chanting and dancing and singing and celebrating of their population there in the square. And what we learned was that the government had abducted and arrested and accused men and boys of being spies for Israel. It was what was considered a Mickey Mouse trial, because within a week there were found guilty and convicted and hung. And really this was a political propaganda ploy by the government to gain support in this uprising and to point the finger at escape goat, which were the Jews at that time. I mean, there's a long history of Iraq and Saddam Hussein in the bath party, also oppressing other religious and ethnic minorities. But what is surprising is my mother's best friend was a Muslim girl, and before my mother escaped, she went to her and they couldn't share words about what was happening. All they could do was cry with each other because they knew they would never see each other again. My mother couldn't disclose to her that she was escaping for her life that her father had been abducted and they couldn't find him and that he was held in this underground jail called the Palace of No Return, where he was most likely being tortured and eventually killed. They were unspeakable words and she was fleeing for her life with her other siblings. And these were things that were happening when my mom went to go to school. She saw that there were other Muslim kids that she was attending school with who were chanting and protesting against the Jews telling them to get out that they're not wanted. And all of a sudden they're trying to expel this community that has been there since 500 BC. And the question is how does a mass population get to the point of accepting and condoning what their leader or dictator, whoever that is, that spokesperson for the group is telling them. I'm a psychologist. I do clinical and forensic work. I'm an expert in the court system. I do evaluations of people who are being tried and facing charges of domestic terrorism and extremism. This is the heart of my work and my passion. And, you know, I don't believe that people are inherently evil. I believe, and Paul and I write about this, we all have good and evil within us, every single one of us. And we have choices that we make throughout our lives that pull us towards one side or the other. And the only person who is responsible is you. You can't at the end of the day blame the leader for leading you down this rabbit hole or down this path that you as an individual have to take accountability for yourself. And there's a lot of wonderful books on this that that we write about and people who have transformed their lives because they came to that realization and conclusion. So the thesis of our book is it's really bent on ideology. I mean, how all that met those masses of people were chanting and dancing while the men and boys, some of whom were younger than 17, 16 years old. Being charged as spies at that age too, which is being tried for Israel exactly. So these ideologies that turn violent tend to separate people by the oppressed and the oppressor. They see themselves as victims. We see this with Hamas rhetoric and content that they're publishing as well that they see themselves as being victimized and oppressed by Israelis. And that enables them to dehumanize Israelis because they see them as this outgroup and they can commit such savage and barbaric acts against them because they don't see the shared humanity in them. They are not human to themselves to to each other. So that provides this legitimacy and justification for them to continue to be more and more violent in the way that they treat the other. So it's important to be aware of that group think mentality. And as these individuals get involved in such ideologies, they become more and more radicalized because of the people and choices that they're making, they just keep going further and further to that extreme form of it. So traits of an addiction than form they become so obsessed and so bent on this vengeance and and this hatred that it is all consuming that it is really again this justification for them to go further and further and committing these sadistic in humane acts of violence against innocent civilians children women disabled and elderly. I want to understand something to about how individuals pick the target of extreme ideologies. So obviously the playbook about blaming the Jews is not new. So what happened in Iraq also happened in Nazi Germany is also happening right now in 2023. So when you look at all these different circumstances, what makes for the best possible target and I ask that because I also when I look at what's happening right now in Israel and with the Hamas attack. I mean, you even look at Jordan and Egypt that are semi hostile. If you could argue even more hostile in terms of how they they don't accept any Palestinian refugees Egypt closed their border. I'm pretty sure Jordan, you know, put a whole bunch of tanks against their border so that no Palestinians could get through there as well. And I feel like Israel is actually probably in terms of accepting Palestinians probably without I'd have to look at data points, but it seems like there are Palestinians that are actively working in Israel living great lives. I mean, I know some. So I know that obviously the community is there and it's a great place to be compared to living in Gaza and working in Gaza under Hamas oppression. But why is the target always the Jews psychologically what what is it is that they they seem to be different because Israelis don't really look that different. Then Arabs it's not like we're talking about Ashkenazi European jewelry. It's a very different it's almost like the cultures are so similar between Israel and many Arab nations. I don't understand how the finger gets pointed towards the Jews all the time. Yeah, I mean, it's a repeat throughout history that, you know, there needs to be a scapegoat to ostracize and point a finger at in order to create a differentiation, especially for leaders who are trying to gain power and control. The quickest way to do that is to incite fear and anger in a population and to give a very simple story as to how and why. So if you have a group of people that have lost something, they're they're going to be more likely to want to organize to protest about something. And if you give them a person to hate and a very simple solution and how to blame them and for what you're blaming them for, you'll you'll actually be able to motivate this this group. And it's through resentment. And so Jews, I mean, throughout history have been blamed for the losses in civilization and economic stability. And Jews in Iraq made up maybe about 1% of the population. So how much really, how much power did they really have. But it became an opportunity that leaders saw and unfortunately, people who didn't have agency and weren't necessarily thinking for themselves thought, yeah, this could be an opportunity for me. All of a sudden, you know, my Jewish business partner is out of the business and I get to seize all the assets. Well, that I get to benefit from that. Paul and I were able to obtain some declassified CIA reports that came out of Iraq after the US led invasion. And we were looking to see at the time what was happening. And the Iraqis did keep very close accounts of what was going on, who they were abducting. We found out that Saddam Hussein was holding torture parties in the jails where they were keeping all of the prisoners. And again, you know, it's just so sadistic. But if you really look at it, my grandfather was quiet. He kept to himself. He was a trusted person within the community. He was Jewish. He was wealthy. He was influential. I mean, all of those things make him a prime target. And when he was abducted, they ransacked his and looted his business where he kept his money and people had invested with him. And essentially robbed him. Most likely it was his captors who had done that because they were able to get information from him that is safety deposits and security and other things. But this was happening throughout history, throughout time, that if there's this opportunity that people can gain power, gain control, they have that growing resentment and hatred. And all they need is that quick solution and someone to blame who they believe is oppressing them and they see themselves as victims. That's why that kind of rhetoric is so dangerous that we're seeing in the US today because it's more than just political divisions and wanting to win, wanting to exercise your voice. It's about winning over and oppressing the other to the point of humiliating and degrading and chaining them. There's no common respect for humanity. And my concern is that we're seeing this polarization in the US that is damaging and fracturing society. And I see this in the clinical work that I do. People are so burned out of politics and good people become disengaged. And I'm concerned about that because the people who are disengaged are the ones who's motivated to assert power and who are more and more extreme versions within their parties. And we're seeing this growing rise of tribalism. Tribalism really is where people devoutly unconditionally show loyalty for their party. We do not challenge the status quo. Do not question the moral and ethical values of their leaders or decision makers and lawmakers. And are just going along without speaking up. And the concern is we have a term in psychology called cognitive dissonance. And what that is is when you're confronted with information that is in conflict with your morals and values, and yet you do the opposite, it creates this psychological tension. And so people naturally are going to want to find ways to reduce that anxiety and that tension that's inside of them because they're in conflict with themselves. One very quick way of doing that is to say, well, my group can do no wrong or, you know, Israel deserved the Hamas attacks on them. And I say, excuse me. So tying innocent children's hands behind their back and shooting them execution style. While the heading babies in their sleep, killing families, disabled women and and creating them through the streets of Gaza raping women. How is that exactly justified? It is not justified. And when I hear excuses or protests happening in universities and even it would happen at Harvard universities, I'm not saying that people shouldn't be humane towards one another, but to find reasons where you're going to that far left and that extremist radical left to the point of justifying and condoning these acts of terrorism. It's, it's horrific. It's atrocious, but it also shows, hey, it's happening here on US soil. We don't have to believe in our delusional bubble that this is just something that happens in the Middle East, and it's not going to touch me in my life. I'm concerned because with COVID, I've seen more and more people really reduce themselves to living in this isolated bubble. And they're becoming more and more disconnected from society and community. They're less trusting of others. They're more paranoid. They're more vigilant. They're more anxious. And people are really burnt out by what they're reading on the news and the media. And so they're just tuning out and turning off and living in this very superficial materialistic existence with lot loss of meaning. And obviously depression and anxiety are not far behind. And so this is concerning, you know, looking at people's quality of life. And I don't think that that is the answer either. So that begs the question because so we see these, we see these, it's actually been super scary for me because I saw this massive, this massive polarization of political thought through COVID. And I think that like to your point, it was exasperated by people being stuck at home and social media creating these echo chambers. But yeah, over the past week, when you see Americans, people in Western society, it's almost like overnight, they lost what their values were. And then to your point, they started condoning some of these things. And I've seen them. And I've seen also individuals say things like, oh, the pictures of the dead children or the people that are burnt alive, they're all AI or they're, they're faked or whatever. So I mean, this is, this is, it's, I think he's just showing how far to your, again, to your point, people have sort of fallen in how, how weak, like cognitively people have become people don't want to put in the cognitive work. Or people don't want to think critically about some things that don't even require that much critical thought to understand what is right versus what is wrong. I don't think I've ever seen a terrorist attack that's been debated before. I mean, when you look at back, when you look back to 911, you didn't have half of the US saying, oh, well, it was justified. Right. And you're seeing groups saying that it is justified because of this reason, that reason, whatever. So this is the problem. And I guess the question is, what is the solution to this, though, because I mean, if people are living in this state of commercialism, they've sort of, they don't trust institutional information anymore, they don't trust news, they don't trust government, they're saying things are fake, they say things are justified. There's so many levels to how that person is thinking. I don't know how you bring them back to reality. And I say this because there's people that pre-Hamas terrorist attack, they were smart, level headed, killing it in their field. One of one of the people in my particular circle was a business partner, Palestinian, and that person just went off, justifying attacks, saying that beheaded babies were fake, they were, they weren't real like every single thing you just mentioned, nonstop coming out of their Instagram. And now I have to break off a relationship with this person, but how does that person who's a smart, educated, successful individual operating in the US before last week, we seem to have the same value system. All of a sudden, they've said publicly, well, you know, it's justified. Hamas isn't a terrorist group, they're freedom fighters. Like that to me, the total 180, how can, how can I be aligned with that person ideologically on 95% of life, business, family, everything else. And then that last mile is so, so different and is completely took me by surprise, they completely floored me. Yeah, I appreciate you sharing that example, Scott, and revealing your vulnerability here too. If I can use that as an example, I think that this can really highlight what we can do here in the US and really having the ego strength and the anti fragility to have those difficult conversations. So if this is somebody that you have developed a relationship with before, which it sounds like you have before cutting them off, I would encourage you to consider meeting with them, meet with them in person, just one on one. So this isn't something that is being shown and expanded upon in social media because we all want to protect our ego and our identity and how people view us in the world. And oftentimes we're showing a different side of ourselves that is truly inauthentic. And so I think, I think knowing that there's probably a more insecurity and doubt that is probably there to really highlight and pull out of that person. So rather than engaging in a power struggle with this person, if you care about this person and want to preserve a relationship, meet with them one on one in a private place and just ask them, hey, I'm really concerned, I saw these posts, you can mention the facts. And I just want to understand, how did you get from being this person and then coming up with these conclusions that you're making? So you're not making it about the person, you're making it about their belief systems or their behaviors. So you're not saying I reject you as a person, I'm rejecting the beliefs that you're coming up with. But help me to understand how you got to that extreme form, walk me through the rationale and the logic and the justification for it. What is it that has happened? And oftentimes you'll find that there really isn't a real clear pathway. The more that you can bring that out to the surface, for them to see for themselves and help them discover for themselves, that there is maybe this propaganda that they're being influenced by. They have these rising levels of anxiety and paranoia resentment and hate that is probably overriding their logic. They're probably being infiltrated by other messaging on other platforms. And so maybe asking them where they're getting their information from, have they considered other sources or outlets? How do they know that that source is even correct over this other one? And really helped to break apart some of that rationale. The biggest thing that you can do is probably preserving the identity of who they were before the the extremism. So if you enjoyed running with them playing basketball with them talking about stocks, talking about building your business, sharing information about your families, sharing trips and enjoying different luxuries and lifestyles that you share together. The more that you can really help root and ground that person in the relationship that you have that existed prior to the extremism, the more likely that that person's going to be grounded and rooted as as they're getting bombarded probably by these other radicalized messaging. There's a lot that's out there right now. So the other psychological principles is the amygdala hijack. So media knows this. Then Newt Knightley News knows this. If we can shake our viewers to feel threatened to feel rage. As long as we're activating that limbic system and that fight flight freeze response, we're going to get them to come back tomorrow. We're going to get them to stay watching for the next hour. And that is our goal ultimately. So radicalizers also know this. And so the more information that they can feed you and propaganda, they can feed you that is going to be activating that limbic system is going to override your frontal lobe. So you're not going to be able to think critically or clearly or logically or really look for the evidence for think about scientific validity. Looking for the root cause of things, having that that critical thinking mindset. It's also where we have the capacity for creativity, problem solving skills, judgment decision making. This is where I see a lot of people go wrong in the work that I do in forensic work that I do leading up to the crimes that they commit or the terrorist acts that they commit. Because they're just so bent on this dogma and they have this deep resentment. So I would say, you know, stand against it. And it doesn't have to mean that you engage in this power struggle with somebody. And I think this is what we're also seeing in the media and politically. Is that people want a fight and they want to prove that they're right so they can dominate over the other. And that makes them feel safer makes them feel like they have more control in their life. Because guess what at the end of the day, we don't feel like we have control over our lives and we're feeling a deep sense of insecurity and fear over the future. We have no idea what the future will hold. It's unpredictable. And I think it's been pretty chronic, a chronic stressor we've been living with since COVID, we haven't really achieved relief. People have not calmed down. Our leaders have not calmed down. We have not really seen the world calm down. And so, you know, what is that leaving us with? And so this is where I'm really concerned about the damages and the fabrics of our society. Now, the name of our podcast is Optimistic American. I know I've been sharing a lot of dire information about the fate of our society right now. Paul and I are true optimists. We do believe that the glass is half full. We do see what wonderful privileges and freedoms and liberties and democracies and opportunities that we have in America. Look at our economy right now and we have such an immense independence and freedom. I know what the other life looks like. Had I been born as a Jewish woman girl in Iraq, my life would be very different. I would not have been able to ascertain a doctorate, higher education. And having a family of my own at my choosing, I mean, there just would have been so many more restrictions and who knows even about my life and my fate and what kind of oppression I would have lived under. And so I'm very fortunate. I was able, I was born in Canada, I lived, I lived in the U.S., I'm an American. And you know, I've all these opportunities and freedoms, but I know what the other looks like. I have 90% of my family when they escaped Iraq, settled in Israel and remain in Israel today. And I can't tell you the horrors of the stories that we've been hearing. You know, we are all affected by collective grief, all of us. I mean, not just the Jewish community, not just the Israeli community in America, but it's hard to imagine that people aren't. Even if they're not directly seeking the information out that they're not being triggered by it somehow and the way that they're responding may be more damaging and harmful to themselves than they really are aware of. I'd like to, I'd like to speak about response. I'd like to, because you sort of gave me a little bit of a blueprint as to how to respond in a one-on-one situation. There's one more point that I'd like to just bring out before we go into the response of how to deal with these stressors and this particular event. But you speak a lot about external factors. So you speak a lot about news. You speak a lot about hate for other of feeling victimized. These are all sort of, you know, the nature versus nurture argument. These would all be, I guess, the nature that impact an individual to adopt an addictive ideology or an extremist ideology. Are there any psychological bases for an individual being more likely to become an extremist or is it mostly the environment that they're a part of? Yes, we see that people who tend to be more isolated that they're also socially ostracized that they don't have a sense of belonging and connection in their community. And they feel disenfranchised. Maybe they're overcome by depression, despair, hopelessness. They feel a loss of meaning and purpose in their life and they're searching and they're lost. And yet they want something more, but they just don't know exactly what that is. And so as they're searching, they make themselves more prone to be indoctrinated by different radicalized groups. But there's a lot of platforms online that are reaching out to youth, especially adolescents, because it's really a time of questioning your identity. Who are you? Where do you belong? What is your life purpose and meaning about? And there is this sense of despair and kind of awkwardness that is naturally inherent to adolescents already. And so if somebody comes online and says, Hey, I see you. I get you. I understand you. I know what you're going through. You know, these are the people to blame for your life's problems. If only these people could be eradicated, then everything would be fine. You know, let's seek revenge and fostering and fueling that resentment in hatred is a way to really gain connection and that buy-in from that person. So you start to see that they tend to isolate themselves maybe from their family members. They're not talking to them as much. They're not telling them what they're stressed about. And you just start to see that they withdraw socially and spend more time in these radicalized media networks. And it's scary. It's scary because it's happening. I mean, I see all kinds of these like in cell ideology, various forms of extremism, both on the left and the right. I'm not trying to point fingers on one side here either. But we see that that radicalization on both sides. And when we look at the type of environment that leads to a terrorist, would that be the same kind of conditions that would lead to serial killer, those some sort of other heinous crime? Well, you know, there are psychopaths and people who have a sadistic sociopathic tendencies. We call them part of the dark triad in terms of personality-conscious drugs. And honestly, I don't believe that's everybody. It's less than 1% of the population and a lot of the evaluations that I do in and looking at risk assessments and personality constructs. You see how, you know, a good person turned bad. So it's not it's less than 1% of any sample size, even a group of terrorists. It would be less than 1%. Yeah, it's not like an evil person that has been born innately inherently evil. As I was saying earlier, I believe that we all have the capacity for good and evil within us. And we have many choices that we get to make because of the freedoms that we have and the free will that we have in order to exercise those freedoms and choices. But it's it's one choice after another choice after another choice that just keeps going deeper, deeper down that bent. Victor Frankl wrote man search for meeting. He was a Holocaust survivor. He was a psychiatrist that came out of Vienna. His whole family were murdered during the Nazi party regime and in a concentration camp. He miraculously survived being an Auschwitz concentration camp survivor to tell his story. And even he said, I observed the Nazi guards and majority of them weren't inherently evil. But every now and then you would get a guard that enjoyed inflicting pain and torturing and killing other Jews. But it wasn't all of them. And so that's the group that Paul and I are really speaking to that group who sees, you know, this might not be right. I don't like this doesn't feel right. I'm just kind of following orders. I'm scared to kind of go I'm scared to go against the regime as to what might happen to me if I did stand up. And honestly, I'd rather it be somebody else than me. I'd rather be in the position of killing than the one being killed. You know, let me just secure my my existential threat and identity and security in this position where I get to maintain the power. But as Alexander Solje Nitsson wrote in the blog Archipelago, he said, I became one of them. I was I was killing farmers. I was marching them to their death. And why? Because I was following orders of a political regime. Who are they? Why should I endorse my whole life and my purpose and my meaning based on what they're telling me to do? And why am I not questioning what they're are telling me to do? How is it that I just blindly follow and and he he lived in guilt following that and he wrote about it and he said, no one, I can't blame the leader. I can only blame myself for blindly following. I have to be the one who has to promote and practice that personal agency and accountability and responsibility for my own actions. I can't tell you how many times in the work that I do and the forensic work that I do. Well, I did that criminal act and because they deserved it or, you know, I am I am innocent here because I am the one who is victimized. And they are so solid and bent on preserving the the little of their their like fragile sense of self and their identity that they're fighting so hard to protect it. And the only way that they can do that is by seeing themselves as the victim. And that is the danger that Paul and I are saying because once you see yourself as the victim, it's hard to see any other way out of it. And you're also surrendering your control when you're doing it. So I tell people be aware of the narrative that you're living and the narrative that you're telling yourself because when you are giving up your control and power, it's when you see yourself as a victim. I'm just going to take a quick break. Thank the longtime friend and sponsor the show, the HubSpot podcast network. They have incredible podcasts. One of my favorites, one you have to check out this month is nudge hosted by Phil Agnew. Now, if you've ever noticed, the smallest changes always seem to have the biggest impact on nudge. You learn simple evidence back tips to help you kick bad habits, get a raise, grow a business. The point is every bite size 20 minute show comes packed with practical advice from these incredible entrepreneurs, behavioral scientists and everybody in between not just fast paced but very insightful and a must listen if you're a podcast fan, make sure you listen to nudge wherever you love to get your podcasts. So we use you actually mentioned a few things. Let's do one more thing before we speak to the response that the general individual should have to this kind of terrorist attack with what's going on right now. You speak about fragility a lot. And you say that an individual that is fragile sees themselves as a victim. And I know you write about becoming anti fragile. And I've heard this term before, but I want you to explain it. And I want to understand so fragility leads to extremism. The key to fighting extremism is to become anti fragile. How do we become anti fragile? How does an individual become anti fragile? You're speaking to somebody who is right now in Gaza is 16 years old is I mean, this is probably the person that you'd want to get through to so that they don't succumb to ideologies that surround them every single day. And I was even looking at videos and it was very sad. There was a video showing children that were, you know, 10, 11, 12, saying how they were taught to hate Jews and how and it was just a very, very, very, very sad message. But how would that individual become an anti fragile individual? Yeah, I think being aware of the isms and the isms are, you know, really making excuses for ones groups in humane infractions against other groups to protect against identity and existential threat. The challenge in the Middle East and the Palestinian is really complex is every family has a story every family knows of somebody who's been killed or lost something or has a trauma that's in the family. And so you've got this historical and new generational trauma and this really strong narrative. And, and you want to blame someone for it like that, the how dare you. And so when you're raised with that ideology, it can be really challenging to untangle it. And so, you know, maybe it's not fair right now in the heart of the conflict to say like, okay, well, how do we take this 13 year old in Gaza right now who's lost their home is having to flee. And they see the terror in their little sister's face and their mother's face and their father, it's like fighting to pick up any remnants of what they have. I'm not saying that there aren't innocent Palestinians. And maybe maybe it's too soon right now in the heart of where the conflict is. I'd love to like come back for a part two in a couple weeks. No, that's fine. So let's outside of this. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, because I don't want to get to any point like there is no justification for what Hamas terrorist groups did in Israel to innocent civilians. And I don't want to whitewash it and I mentioned, you know, my bias earlier as a Jewish Iraqi woman and whose family also has a story of intergenerational trauma, but also I am my own person and my own identity and my own agency. And I think it's important to really practice resilience and that is what ego strength and anti-projility is about. It's about I don't have to prove that I'm right at every conversation I'm having. I don't have to show my moral superiority to every person to make them feel defeated so that I can feel stronger or more secure in myself. That that I can still hold on to that strength within and I have to tell you like there's just so many stories of heroes and I think people are wanting to be inspired. People don't want to be defeated anymore. They want to feel inspired. And I think things that hold them on to hope, unity, this, this collective sense of belonging knowing that we're all going through this collective grief together. I spent the weekend in my Jewish community and there were many survivors who had just come back from Israel and we're talking about what they witnessed and the stories that they heard. Actually, I'd like to share this story. There was a young woman who was in the commanding station and that they were patrolling and monitoring on the all the surveillance cameras, the Gaza border with Israel and the wall that exists there. And they were saying that, you know, it was like high school girls. They were in their pajamas, many were asleep. It was in the early mornings on Saturday of Shabbat. And all of a sudden these Hamas terrorists just broke in, started raping, killing, stabbing and just brutally through sadistic acts, just like naming and lynching these women to the point that three of them committed suicide afterwards that it was so horrific that they didn't even want to survive. And I don't know more of the stories, but one of the girls did survive to tell the story about what she witnessed and what was happening. And the man that was sharing this story was in tears and he said, you know, I was just there to bear witness and I saw in the hospital and I wanted to hear her story and I asked her, because he just felt so helpless and I think so many, so many of us feel so helpless, like not sure what to do. How should I act? How do I help? How do I engage? How do I lean into this conflict and help promote some kind of resolution? And all she said was tell our story, go home and tell our story. And because the world needs to know. And I think it's so important, like you were saying in the face of fact, distorting information or even hearing or seeing things that just seems so out of the ordinary and so inhumane that it's can't be possible. Somebody must be making this up some AI technology must be artificially creating this because there's just no way that that Palestinians would do this. Well, it's Hamas terrorists. And so I think I think it's important to keep us grounded and so really having a sense of unity, a sense of collectiveness and grieving collectively is important. And, you know, there's a saying in Hebrew, he name, we stand together as a community spiritually and solidarity and I can't tell you how proud I am to be a Jewish woman today raising our daughter is Jewish. But also how scared I am with a rise of anti-Semitism and and that there was even more hate and I can't attend my local synagogue without there being police officers there and I appreciate them being there. I want the security there, but knowing that we need the security there because of the growing rise of anti-Semitism and threats. And so that is really concerning to me. But we have to maintain hope we have to maintain hope there's another story of a hero, a grandfather and he saw that the terrorists had taken his grandchildren and they were in they were in a truck and they were driving away. So we quickly got into his car and grabbed as many weapons as he could and he chased the car down. Fortunately, he was able to kill the terrorists and save and rescue his grandchildren and they said, I knew you would come and save us. You know, there was another story of a grandfather who was going to save his son and grandchildren and they were close to the Gaza border living there. And on the way, he saw that there were people who were coming from the the rave party and and they were all bloodied and and you know near near death and they were leaving and walking towards the north and he picked them up to take them to Tel Aviv and get them into a hospital. So then he turned around and he went back a second time old on this time. He sees that there's some security and army and they're also leaving the scene also badly beaten and shot and injured. And so then he puts them in his car and he goes back to Tel Aviv again to the hospital and takes them there and he says, okay, a third time. So now he's on his way back and he sees that there there's a soldier who's trying to get to the fight. And so he puts them in his car and they have their guns with them and so they're going towards the the fight. And eventually he gets to his son's house and he goes in and he finds that his adult son and grandchildren were adequately barricaded in the bomb shelter and the basement of their house and he was able to rescue them. And they said, Zaba, we knew you would come and save us. It's okay. Zaba's here. Zaba's here. And you know, and the question is, how do you how was it that you were able to pick up these other survivors and turn around knowing that your grandchildren and your son were still in harm's way. And he said, if not me, then who? And this is such a common saying in Judaism, if not me, then who? If I if I am not there to save my fellow citizens, then who's going to be there for me? We're all one. There is this sense of solidarity that we're all there to fight and defend and protect each other. And I think we're losing that here in America today. It is so sad and disheartening to see that as Americans that that we are so not unified. And there's so much like we're disenfranchised and we're totally separated and polarized. And all we say is this hate speech and rhetoric and can't see that we are all one and really connecting with that unification. I think is so important and helps us to remain resilient. So how do we practice personal resiliency? We have difficult conversations. We practice courage. And sometimes courage is that little voice at the whisper at the end of the day that says, I'm going to try again tomorrow. I may have felt defeated today, but I'm going to try again tomorrow. It doesn't always have to be a roar. And sometimes when we're bloodied and we feel beaten and we feel like we've failed and people are turning against us. And sometimes that's the hero. That's where courage is needed at the most to be able to stand up for what you believe in and even if it means like losing in the battle. But you're fighting for a cause that matters. You're fighting for that cause that is meaningful and purposeful. I think that that is quite critical. So let's lean into that and help people understand, especially in the US, how to react to this particular terrorist attack. What should they do? What shouldn't they do? Because I think the immediate action is to push out as many points that you align with on social media. You're probably hopefully having educated conversations with your friends that maybe see things differently. But I feel like there's a lot of people that are acting as loud speakers and they're communicating to be heard. And they're not listening to the other. They're not listening to their friends. They're just pushing more and more out and more and more out. And they're posting on their stories and they're tweeting aggressively. And this is coming from a place of emotion, right? Because there's an intense emotion that comes with a terrorist attack and the murder of innocent lives. Is that the proper response? That's the normal response. Is that the proper response? Does having every single individual, every single Jewish person, every single Israeli in the US, push out tons of content on social media, bring awareness to the attack and the atrocities? Does that, is that solve a purpose? Or does that just create an us versus them? Does that sort of drive more of an us versus them dichotomy, which in turn just divides, you know, Americans or or divides a country even more? I think, first of all, educating yourself is going to be the biggest thing. I hear, you know, there's a lot of defense and cognitive defenses that are being activated right now. And I hear a lot of people are also wanting to separate themselves from the conflict because it's just too much for them to bear. And so there's a lot of excuses that are happening. And so I think the first thing we can do as individuals is really educate ourselves, maybe, maybe look across differently, like multiple media sites and challenge where this information is coming from. But be cautious about content on social media that doesn't have the same level of regulations and restrictions as investigative journalism would have. So really, you know, seek out quality resources. And that is look at, you know, academic journals, if you're wanting more information about the conflict, because they're going to be peer reviewed. It's not just a political opinion that somebody's wanting to make up a bunch of information. So really being very diligent and intentional about where you're seeking information platforms like Facebook and Instagram and acts firmly known as Twitter. I mean, these are just notoriously known for just people making up stuff and posting it and distorting information and again can be used for propaganda. And so be aware of that. If you're going to engage in social media platforms, be intentional about why and for what purpose and how long you plan on spending. Can I give you one example that I saw. So obviously, obviously, people are, you know, it's fine to discuss facts about what happened. And and I, you know, you're speaking about the atrocities that happened. That's fine. But I saw one thing that was really interesting. It was on Thursday. So Friday, we're going to try and keep this evergreen, but still times matter for this particular episode. So on Friday, there was a call for the global day of G had from the leader of Kamaas. And obviously, I stress a lot of people out. But what I saw was a post that somebody put up on Twitter. And it was in, it was in Russia. And there was a woman spray painting, you know, Megan David on storefronts. And the text was people in Russia spray painting, you know, or identifying Jewish businesses for a program on Friday day of G had that was sort of the context of the tweet. Fact check show this videos from like four years ago, whatever it is, it has nothing to do with that. But even that, even though what you're trying to do is, hey, listen, don't be anti-Semitic. This is what's happening to us right now. We have to be careful. We have to be vigilant. That is still feeding a narrative of fear. And it's not an accurate representation of what's actually going on. So the lens in which the thought process of the individual putting that out is, is like, they should be justified because it seems to be a good thing. We're trying to say, hey, listen, don't be anti-Semitic. Be careful. Be aware. This is what's happening to us right now. It makes it feeds a narrative that hopefully will, you know, reduce anti-Semitism, hopefully reduce terrorism, reduce hate for Jews. But it's still adding to this this environment of fear. And it's not even a correct piece of information. So even if your, even if your objective is sort of noble, it still is adding to this climate that I don't love this, this whole climate of fear and anxiety. And I don't think that helps as much as that particular individual thought it would help. Yeah, and I commend you for rising above that and allowing me to be on your podcast and even diverging from your typical platform in order to invite this discourse and conversation is challenging and timely and relevant as it is today. And so, you know, I invite people to do similar things to really find, well, what is it within my power? How do I not feel helpless in this situation? How do I not allow myself to be overcome and pissed off and angry and reactive to what I'm seeing? And how do I do it with intention? And what is it that I'm trying to promote? And it was such, you know, I really appreciate you asking me at the start of this podcast. Hey, you know, what is, what is your purpose? Are you like, what do you want to get out of this podcast? I thought I had to really stop and say, oh my gosh, no one's ever asked me that before. You know, thank you for allowing me to pause and reflect on that and set that intention for me today. And that is so important. Of course. You know, promoting individual resilience, promoting personal agency accountability and responsibility, encouraging people to have that ego strength and build that courage and that confidence in themselves. To do the right thing, rather than just follow a path of habit, it sounds simple. It's so hard in practice. And this is what I'm seeing in the clinical work that I do, especially with people, we've all been touched every person who is living. I can't tell you there's no one that hasn't been touched by loss at some point in their level. And when you were child and you lost your family pet, it could have been when you lost your grandparent or, you know, a story that you heard or your parents were divorced or separated and it was an ugly battle and you were caught in the crossfire. However it was that influenced you when you're hearing about other people's losses, it does activate threat and fear and terror inside of us. And so there is this collective grieving process that happens. And I think, you know, people are very easily just going to go to social media and post things without even really considering what are the implications of this? Who's going to see it? How is it going to be? How can I misinform and distort other people's reality by this information so that I can just get them to believe this fake news and I can have more likes or more views and that promotes me. There's like a butterfly effect with this. So even that tweet that I just described, so you put this out there, somebody sees it doesn't realize that it has no relation to what's happening in the world at this particular moment. I have no idea where that video actually came from, but it wasn't related to this. And then all of a sudden, now you feel anger and then you feel even more hate your hate level and your anger level and your anxiety level just went up a notch because you feel that now there's this potential. So, you know, quasi crystal knock that's happening in Russia on Friday and you're like, holy shit, what's going on? Everything just becomes this like a ticking time bomb. And now you're now you're going into all the conversations with your maybe you're more liberal or more left leaning friends with this level, you used to have a level head. Now that you're angry, those conversations aren't as productive anymore. There's all of this, this echo chamber. BS, quite honest, it's social media feeds that is not good and not conducive to the conversations that you really should be having. Yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, people, if they allow themselves to be educated about the conflict can help give more context to what's going on. Because I think one of the biggest things in America is this kind of delusional bubble of like, well, this is something that just happens over there. I mean, Israel's always in conflict with Palestine. Why should I be invested in the conflict? Oh my gosh, you know, there's no time, you know, that's more important to be informed and aware and to be to really have an appreciation and no understanding of what's happening globally. Because the rise of extremism isn't just something that's happening over there, it's happening over here, it's happening globally. And this is occurring and I think that we have an opportunity to prevent it because all the warning signs are really surrounding us. And this is a commitment, honestly, to my personal cause and to Paul's cause. So Paul was the former mayor of Phoenix. And his conviction is to really reduce extremism that's in the rise in American politics today through the work that I do in evaluations of people who are being charged with domestic terrorism and various forms of extremism. You know, my commitment is really towards prevention efforts and really encouraging people to practice their self-care, really looking at their own intention, intentionality, living a life with dignity, really standing up for what they believe in. Even if it goes against what they're hearing and seeing around them because it's more morally and ethically aligned with their views and not allowing themselves to be indoctrinated into this tribalism that is happening. And sometimes to be the better person is not the one that is the loudest or the most righteous or trying to dominate and treat the other as inferior. So I think being aware of what you say and what you do in your actions, there's no better time than now to really activate that. You have time for just one more. I've just one more. Perfect. I found this analogy very interesting because you said this in not so many words, but part of the book and part of the things that you discuss. They basically equate extremism to an addiction and some of the things that you're discussing, the treatment and the prevention, like it sounds like we're talking about somebody who is addicted to a really hardcore drug and they have to go through rehab or like a treatment facility. So explain to me what that means in addiction because all these different inputs, these different inputs are sort of pushing a person to think a certain way. Why would that be an addictive thing? Why would that be something that I would want? Like I feel like I would want to move on with my life as quick as possible. Why is something that gives me joy or gives me satisfaction? So what's happening in the brain is this rush of dopamine and when we're in an argument and we feel like, oh, I'm winning the argument, I'm right and they're wrong and I'm showing that they're wrong. We actually get this rush of adrenaline and dopamine in this high and that is activating this dopamine or journey system. It's an activation system in the brain and we've got this rush of hormones that comes with it and it feels good. And then we want that feeling again because again, it helps us to feel morally superior and righteous and so there is this addictive pattern and habit. And with the addictions, well, the definition is we do things that harms us and it hurts the people we love. It hurts the people that are surrounding us. We see these functional impairments in our lives and yet we keep doing it again and again and again. And so there are these similarities to addictions and we see that also with sex addictions, porn addictions, media addictions, drug addictions that really they operate on the same neural pathways. And so you're right, it is like a detox that one has to go through. And in realigning and recalibrating ones being and what we know from people who have moved out of these radical extremists ideologies and try to reconnect with some kind of semblance of the life that they had before is really connecting with their hobbies, their interests, their identity, their family, the people that love them. And despite that time of departure and wherever that they went and whatever they believed in because they were still loved and they were still valued, even though their behaviors and their beliefs weren't accepted, that didn't mean that they rejected them as a person as a human as a being. And I think that that is that's the biggest thing that we can do here in the US is really still have the difficult conversations, but really with the people that you love if you're starting to see them being bent and turned into more extremist viewpoints and ideologies is really to help ground them and root them. In these in who they were and their identity that they had before. This is the advice you're giving me about my particular scenario, my particular friend that I have to speak to, but this is the advice for anybody that has like a loved one, a friend, a family that falls into the trap of these addictive ideologies left or right. So it's this extremist on either end of the spectrum where you have to be very careful. How do you, what are some of the warning signs that somebody is subscribing to something that may be harmful. Yeah, so if you're noticing like a lot of depression with the draw, more extremist views, maybe more violent tendencies. If you hear that there's this pinpointed resentment towards an out group and they're seeing themselves as a victim that they're really trying to protect themselves. And there may have been an event that they feel particularly passionate about or it may just be a cause like that kind of tribalistic view that you know there's there's nothing that this group that identify with can do wrong. And everything that they've done that you're saying is wrong is justified in my mind because they are the ones who are being oppressed. So once you start to see like those justifications. If there's been more and more time online and you start to see that there's this real withdrawal and change in their behavior and their usual patterns. And like a diminished sense of care for their well-being and their person. These are all things that are warning signs that they're getting closer and closer and ask them about violence. You know, are one of the things that we saw with the mass shooters profiles in schools or in against civilians was that people number one were suicidal. And so they really felt like they had nothing to live for. And so they were going into places that they felt this deep in resentment because they felt rejected by either their schools or their communities or their peers. And so they wanted revenge and the way that they did that, but they also reached that point that they were suicidal that they really had nothing left to live for. So it was a suicide homicide. And there are obviously some sort of tipping point when it goes from ideology to action. And I guess it's just this same mindset just left unchecked. Or is there like a meaningful event that pushes somebody over that chasm? Yeah, there may be a triggering event that is recent or sometimes it's that their life has just fallen deeper deeper into pure collapse. And then they're getting closer to that point of suicide that they just feel like, okay, I'm there in a place of real darkness and despair. And they may be more motivated at that time to commit the violence. Okay, so let's sort of finish this on on a high note because obviously super, super heavy topic. What is, I mean, you work with policy, you work with, you work with organizations that obviously are trying to solve for this. What's the roadmap? What's the roadmap in the US? What's the roadmap globally? What policies will make a difference? How do we tackle, you know, you pick the best route that we can sort of take out the best thing we can take on. It could be social media, it could be education, it could be more conversations like this that prompt people to have empathetic conversations with their friends or family, their peers, whatever it is. But what's the, what's the thing that you sort of moves the needle in the right way? Yeah, well, Paul's work in reducing extremism and politics as really push him to expand on the independent party and the US. So 49% of Americans are registered as independence because they really didn't want to be identified as part of a Republican or Democratic group. That's huge, absolutely. That's actually very telling. Yeah, and so that also gives us hope that if you look at the masses, again, you know, while we all have the capacity for good and evil, I think that the general population is good. And in general, people are good and want good things and want to feel hopeful and want a prosperous future for themselves and their families. And America is a great place to live. And you know, I'm as exact as you have to be though, you have to be. Yeah, and so Paul's really pushing for political reform there. And of course, we also advocate for educational reform, legislative reform. And you know, there's there's a number of different worksheets and podcasts that we've posted on these topics if people are interested can look at the optimistic American dot com website. And I'm happy to share any resource resources and materials that could be helpful for your viewers. I'm also happy to speak honestly and have debates and dialogue and difficult conversations. So please feel free to reach out to us and we'd be happy to speak on the topic, whether it's in your community or local community centers or places that you gather on various podcasts or other outlets. And my work is also at the individual level really working clinically with people to to grow and to transform themselves. And to see, you know, how are they blindly participating in things that are harming themselves and others. And what do they really want to do to change that and how to enlighten themselves and really seeking their own inner truth and seeing the value and we not me. And it's certainly living in this materialistic self absorbed state because it feels safe and it's predictable and it makes me feel good and it's it's really just short term gratification and there's nothing of long term value that you're going to get from that. And it will only lead to depression and a loss of meaning and purpose in your life. And so, you know, it'll catch up at some point or later. So I'd say, you know, stop ruling yourself now. And and really try to engage and have that what you were saying early was really beautiful like that deeper critical intellectual emotional spiritual curiosity because that is a worthy cause. Yeah, I know I appreciate that a lot. Is there is there anything that that we didn't go into some final words of wisdom that you'd like to leave the audience with anything that we didn't that we didn't speak about. Yeah, I think ending on that note of, you know, if not me, then who. And I think that's important to really remember here in the US, you know, after 9, 11, it was so powerful to see that that level of American pride and protection and unification. And even though we were all mourning together and having this collective trauma that that we wanted to use it to mobilize ourselves to be better to defend ourselves to not permit that to ever happen again. And we continue to collectively mourn those fatal acts and learn the lessons from it. And I think we have to apply those same lessons today because there's there's a lot of damage that could be done more so to the fabrics of our society and our community and our government and our democracy. And it is worth fighting for and I know what that other side looks like we do not want to see it go in that direction. And so we need people to be engaged not disengaged if they're not engaged, then they're good people not fighting for the worthy cause because it's too taxing. And so I say it's important. It's important to be engaged and find a way that engage that engagement looks for you. It doesn't have to be the same for everyone. This is how you and I are doing it. But it may be in different ways for other people. Okay, perfect. At this stage in your life, I want you to answer this both personally and professionally with the worth that you do because I ask everybody at this age in their life sort of what a success mean to them. And of course, I want you to I want you to understand where you're going. And I want you to sort of teach that over to the audience because you had an incredible career obviously books accolades. And you had a meaningful career because again, you know what hardship could have looked like. So I think it means that when you achieve this and you have a beautiful family and children like it just means so much. It means a lot, not that it means more, but I think that you have a very good idea of what the other could have been, which is it really it really creates a filling life. So at this point in your career, what a success mean for you personally, but also for the work that you do and for the message that you sort of bring to the world, what is the optimal outcome, the optimal success look like for that. You know, for me personally, it's it's to have an impact and you know, I have to tell a story I'm personally motivated because when I was 12 years old, I made a promise to myself that I would somehow undo the harm that had been done to my family. And when my grandfather was abducted and never heard from again and you know all we can do is just assume what had happened mostly that he had been tortured and killed and and you know thrown into an unknown grave that there's still no confirmation that that that is haunting and trauma is haunting. And when I made that promise to myself, I didn't know what that would look like, but last year, Paul and I published our book addictive ideologies and that was the 50th memorial year of my grandfather's disappearance. And I felt like to me that there was a sense of spiritual justice in that that I was we put pictures of him in our book, we told the story, we explain what had happened in Iraq leading up to his disappearance and death. We talked about the similarities of things that are happening here in the US, you know, we're promoting a very personal touching story that that is so meaningful to us and to me and to my family. And I think the importance is how am I going to make an impact with this like there, there is a motivation and I want to undo the harm that had been done and now I'm committed to the prevention, I mean it is part of my path of why I'm doing evaluations of terrorists and people with extremist ideologies. I feel like my life is very meaningful and purposeful, but I also love life. I have a joy for life. I don't harbor deep hate or resentment. My parents don't harbor deep hate or resentment. They're grateful for their freedom. They're grateful to be an American. And that is a beautiful thing. They're hardworking immigrants. And you know, that is part of the fabrics of our society and our identity. And I feel so grateful to be here. And I think if we can all practice that, that we all have something grateful for and we can all experience that sense of joy and purpose and meaning is more important than happiness. And so Victor Frankl talked about that. He said, what helped me survive the Auschwitz concentration camp was that I had to write my book. No one else could write my book for me. I was the only one that knew the content. So I need to survive this in order to write my book. And what a powerful spiritual legacy that he left behind in life lessons that we continue to learn from today because history has a way of repeating itself. you