Paul Rice - Fairtrade Pioneer & Social Entrepreneur | How One Idea Transformed Global Trade & Ended Poverty Cycles

If you're a poor farmer and you only have one or two acres of land, the only way that you can truly create economic wealth is by building economies of scale. Some leaders follow the system. Paul Rice changed it. As founder and CEO of Fair Trade USA, he's helped over one million farmers and workers earn fair wages, bringing fair trade into 200,000 retail locations and generating $1 billion in additional income. I studied in economics, international development when I was an undergrad, got really excited about going overseas after graduation and helping out. The summer of 1983, I bought a one-way ticket to Nicaragua and I went off to work with farmers. This journey started on the ground. Paul spent 11 years in Nicaragua working with farmers in building one of the world's largest organic coffee cooperatives. After being in Nicaragua, working in various communities and really ignoring this whole issue of market access and price, I kind of heard by accident about fair trade. After hearing about the fair trade market in Europe, I ended up organizing Nicaragua's first fair trade co-op. Over the next four years, we were exporting over 100 shipping containers of coffee. After four years, I started to feel like it was my duty to come back to the US. And that's what led me to come back and start Fair Trade USA. Since founding Fair Trade USA in 1998, he's partnered with brands like Patagonia, Nispresso, and Whole Foods. Today, he's here to talk about ethical business and the future of conscious capitalism. Let's get into it. Business can and must be a force for good. Business can not sit on the sidelines in the face of climate change and global poverty and all the problems. Business has to be a part of the solution. Welcome to success story. I'm your host, Scott Cleary. The success story podcast is part of the HubSpot podcast network, but HubSpot doesn't just have great podcasts. If you're an entrepreneur, if you're a builder, they've got your back. 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So you're going to join over 10,000 global companies like Atlassian, Korra, and Factory, who use Vanden to manage risk and prove security in real time. And don't miss this. For a limited time only, my listeners can get $1,000 off Vanden. That's real money back in your pocket. Visit vanta.com slash Scott right now before the software expires. That is V-A-N-T-A.com slash Scott. What does it mean to be fair trade certified? When a product is fair trade certified, what that means is that the factory or the farm where that product came from met this rigorous 200 point checklist of social and environmental standards. So it is without a doubt the gold standard in terms of social responsibility and sustainability. So when a product wears that fair trade certified label, it means it comes from a farm or a factory where the environment was taken care of and the workers were taken care of. Now obviously there's a story behind where this came from and sort of your story as well. I really think your story is fascinating because you were before this whole idea even started. So you were an activist and you were living within all these small coffee farms in Nicaragua. So how long ago was that? Take me back to that version of Paul. Yeah. So I studied economics and international development when I was in undergrad and got really excited about going overseas after graduation and helping out. So in the summer of 1983, fresh out of college, I bought a one-way ticket to Nicaragua and I went off to work with farmers. And I thought, oh, I'll do this for a year or two, get some experience and then come back to the States and do something sensible. I ended up paying for 11 years. So from the age of 22 until the age of 33, I was living in very remote communities in the mountains of northern Nicaragua, working with farmers, mostly coffee farmers. And the mission was to help those farmers come together and form co-ops and try to implement better agricultural methods, try to help them improve their income. And that was kind of how I got on the journey. I was riding horses pretty much every day through these remote mountain forests from one village to the next, hanging out with farmers, sleeping in their home, sleeping in hammocks, eating rice and beans three times a day. It wasn't adventure. Where did you get the idea? Because obviously people go backpacking, people want to volunteer once in a while. Where did the idea to spend time with coffee farmers and Nicaragua specifically come from? That's a bit unique community. You know, there was this whole process going on at the time in the 80s in Nicaragua where poor people were given access to land, in many cases for the first time. So so much of poverty in rural areas around the world is due to the fact that that people just don't have access to land. And so in many cases, they're forced to move to the cities or they're forced to work for three dollars a day on someone's big farm. So the the the question of land and access to land is a big one when we think about global poverty and how to address it. And so in Nicaragua at the time, there was something going on called a land reform. And there've been land reforms all over the world at different points in history. This one was helping the poor get access to land. And I had read about that. I'd studied that in college. I thought, okay, I want to go see that up close. So that was why I went to Nicaragua. To be in a place where they were giving poor people what they needed most, which was land. And then technical assistance and training and tools and credit in order to help them work the land productively. And if you're a poor farmer and you only have one or two acres of land, which is what most of them had, the only way that you can truly create economic wealth is by building economies of scale, right? Which means joining together with other farmers in your community, you know, when you have 50 or a hundred farmers, then you have enough land under production to buy a tractor, which you can share or buy a processing machine, which then allows you to sell a more value add product. Here in the United States, we had and have farming coops. It's very common, you know, sun-kissed oranges. You're from Florida. You live in Florida. Sun-kissed oranges is a farmer-owned cooperative based in Florida, ocean-sprayed cranberries, diamond almonds. So here in the US, we also have farming coops. And again, the idea is with economies of scale, you can add value to the product. And that was really what we were trying to do in Nicaragua at the time. And I think that, listen, it's a great initiative. And you can correct me and my assumptions. But it's a great initiative to give land to these farmers. But I would assume that even if they're farming, and I think the problem that fair trade is solving is even if they're farming and they're creating a commodity to a degree, people that purchase that commodity are still exploiting. So they're still trying to take advantage of these farmers, even though, you know, the step one in creating wealth is to give land. But then all of a sudden, now there's all these other hurdles and there's all the other things that these farmers have to navigate, that they've never navigated ever before. And maybe just describe what you experienced, even what fair trade was eventually created to rectify and to fix. But what did you experience when you had these Nicaraguan farmers creating growing coffee beans, I guess, and then and how they interacted with people that were purchasing the beans, sort of like the commercial supply chain. Yeah, yeah. And that's a great question, Scott. And you're right. You know, the secret sauce of a fair trade and other forms of what I call responsible sourcing, the secret sauce is direct market access by a producer to the market. So yeah, in the case of Nicaragua, for many years, I was working with farming groups who were trying to produce more on a given acre of land, but they were still selling in the local market to middlemen who were paying pennies on the pound for the value of that coffee. And you know, we're talking about farmers. The farmers I was working with were, you know, again, two acres on average. Most of them did not have electricity. So they didn't have internet access. They didn't know what the global price for coffee was. They didn't know the value of their own product. And so they were kind of negotiating blinds. And typically, a middleman, a coffee buyer would roll up into their community with a pickup truck and say, hey, y'all, today's price for coffee is 10 cents a pound. Take it or leave it. Cash on the barrel. Get that coffee. And then of course, the middleman would go back into the cities and sell it for a huge profit. And so that kind of lack of market access, then and now often locks small family farmers into a generational cycle of poverty. They just can't rise out of poverty because they can't capture the true value of the harvest that they're producing. And so, you know, after after being in Nicaragua for seven or eight years and working on, you know, various projects, working in various communities and really ignoring this whole issue of market access and price. I kind of heard by accident about fair trade. You know, this was the summer of 1990. And fair trade was a movement that was just getting going in Europe. And so in Switzerland and the UK and Germany and other countries, buyers who called themselves fair traders were basically saying to farmers around the world, we'll buy your product at a better price and we'll help you that way. And their slogan was trade not aid. Trade not aid. And the whole philosophy was wise send aid to alleviate poverty around the world. If we can just buy farmers products at a better price, then they can, you know, improve their lives on their own without depending on foreign aid. And of course, this is a very relevant conversation today, which, you know, I hope we can get into a little later in the conversation as we see the US government backing away from USAID and foreign aid around the world. And so what do we do? But back to 1990, loan story short, after hearing about the fair trade market in Europe, I ended up organizing Nicaragua's first fair trade co-op. Organized 24 small coffee families, they came together. We filled one container, shipping container with coffee. We shipped it to a buyer in Europe. They paid us over a dollar a pound of coffee. Wow. A dollar pound for a dollar per pound for our coffee at a time when local middlemen were paying 10 cents. So we gave our farmers 10 times more money that season. And it was a small amount. It was one container, but that was like the spark that lit the prairie fire. Over the next four years, I helped grow that co-op to 3,000 families. We were exporting over 100 container, shipping containers of coffee by the fourth year. And, you know, the buyers in Europe, the fair trade buyers were paying us such a great price that we were able to deliver. You know, enough income for farmers to stay on the land. That was an issue that we even staying on the land, staying on the land, keeping their kids in school, putting food on the table, bringing clean water into their villages for the first time. It was amazing what these farmers were able to do without the help of government or international charities. And so for me, that was like a transformational experience in terms of how I thought about the challenge of global poverty and the most sustainable and effective way to deal with it. I think that's a very smart way to deal with it. And I know at one point in your life, I'm not assuming very early on, you were anti-capitalist. You did not agree with this system that we all live in every single day. And I don't think that the system that we're living is the best form of capitalism, but it's so during this metamorphosis and this sort of realization and you building this co-op, this is like, this is conscious capitalism. This is the best version of capitalism. Capitalism that actually helps. It's a tool that is exploited. But when it's not exploited, it can actually help a community. It can help a lot of people. And that's a misunderstanding how you changed your view over creating these co-ops and whatnot. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, I had lived in rural communities for so long and seen so many beautiful, bright, hardworking farmers that time and again, year after year, were being left behind by the global market because they didn't have access to that global market. And so for me, capitalism was failing now, right? All the opportunities in the global market were failing those communities and those beautiful people I was working with. And that was the impetus for me feeling like, well, capitalism is the problem. What I learned through this fair trade journey is actually, you know, we can organize the poor and help them plug into companies and consumers that care. And that more equitable model of trade can be truly transformational for farmers and workers around the world. And so yeah, you're exactly right. I ended up becoming much more of a fan of conscious capitalism. I saw the strength of markets and the strength of consumer education to help the farmers that I was working with. And that was a big deal for me. And, you know, actually, so at that point, I'd been in Nicaragua for 11 years. I married a local gal. I had a kid. You know, I was rocking the mustache. I was Pablo. I was not Paul. I was Pablo. And I thought I would liberate the rest of my life there. You know, it was a very beautiful, happy life. I was very fulfilled. And yet, you know, after four years of of leading this fair trade co-op, Scott, I started to feel a calling. I started to feel like it was my duty to come back to the US because fair trade was big in Europe and there was nothing happening here in the US. And I kind of felt like, I have no right to stay here in Nicaragua. I need to take this movement to the US. I need to see if I can plant the seed, you know, the US being the largest consumer market in the world. See if I can help my farmers by going and planting the fair trade seed in the US. And that's what led me to come back in 94 and start fair trade USA. I want to understand something because you mentioned that a lot of the problem with the global supply chain and coffee particular, but I'm assuming it impacts every product that we get from another country. You mentioned that that first buyer. Like, I guess I want to look at, like, who's the bad guy? Or is there multiple bad guys that create this really harsh environment for people all over the world? Is it the first buyer? Is it the corporations? Is it the consumer? Like, in your opinion, who's the worst individual that reinforces this negative life for these farmers? Is it the consumer? Where is it? No, I don't think most consumers are aware that the things that we buy have come to us at the expense of the farmers or the workers that are making them. I don't think most of us think about child labor in our chocolate bar or deforestation in the coffee that we drink. And so I wouldn't blame the consumer. And honestly, I don't really think in terms of who's the bad guy. I think in terms of the system of global production and trade and consumption and how we can, you know, architect a system that enables everyone to win, right? Because right now, arguably, in much of international trade, the farmers are getting left behind. Maybe the environment is being damaged through bad agricultural practices. So how do we re-architect that in a way that farmers can put food on the table and protect the community that they live in, protect the environment? Brands can make money and consumers can get a great product that makes them feel good. But that's really what Fair Trade is all about. It's creating that win-win-win scenario in which everyone thrives. And so now at this point, you come back to the US. You're going to figure out how to bring this idea to the US. And that means I'm assuming starting with some of the largest companies in the world that would be importing the product. So what's the business case? Because I know that there's I know that there's the feel good component. But to radically shift and disrupt anything when there's no, there's no cultural shift at this point when you're coming back towards Fair Trade. What's the pitch? How does it make sense for people that you first get them on board? Yeah, it's a great question. I had lived the life in Nicaragua with those families. So when I first came back and started pitching Fair Trade to companies up here, I started just by pitching it as the right thing to do. Making sure that we take care of those farmers and their families is just the right thing to do. And honestly, that point of view resonated with most of the CEOs that I was talking with at the time. But it wasn't enough. So to your point, there's got to be a business case, right? Because that's how that's how companies work. They can't pay more to the farmers and their supply chain if it means they're going to bankrupt their own business. So there's got to be a win-win proposition there. And I think, you know, the first step is overcoming this trade-off mentality that we've been taught, that either a company can be profitable or it can be sustainable, but it can't really be both, right? That's what I think a lot of people believe. Hey, and so, you know, what has to happen is that an executive, a leader, a consumer, we have to at least entertain the possibility that we can have, you know, a sustainable company that is also profitable, that is also wildly successful, right? And now, increasingly, we have more and more examples of that in the US economy and then in the global economy. But when I started Victory USA in 1998, it was still a little bit of a radical idea that you could be profitable and sustainable. And so, you know, the pitch, you know, in answer to your question, was first and foremost, look at the data on how consumer demand is evolving. Look at the data. You know, don't think my word for it. There's an abundance of data that indicates that consumers increasingly want products that make them feel good, right? They want products that are consistent with their social and environmental values. They want to know that they're not doing harm. There have been so many scandals over the years around child labor in the chocolate industry and around deforestation and bad labor practices and environmental destruction and so on. And so, I think first and foremost, consumers don't want to feel like it's their fault that that bad shit happened. Sorry. Can I say something like that? Totally. I know you can't see that's the problem. So, you know, then the question becomes, you know, is that consumer demand and that shift, which by the way, we know that that millennials and Gen Z index even higher in terms of their expectations of companies and how those companies will take care of the environment and take care of farmers and workers. So, you know, it's a future trend. It's not just a fad, right? So then how do you tap into that? And with fair trade, you know, one of the advantages of fair trade is that it's a certification, right? It's not just a general claim. Like, oh, yeah, we believe in fairness. No, no, it's an actual certification. If there's a standard, the farms are audited against the standard. And so there's a credibility that comes with a fair trade certified product, right? Where the consumer sees that label and knows, oh, I don't have to believe the company, right? There's an independent third party audit that's verifying this claim. And the companies put the, put the seal on the product. I've got one right here. Here's organic Bolivian coffee, trader Joe's. Here's the fair trade certified label, right? So that's how you know that that product meets that standard. So there's that credibility. And so, you know, in answer your question about, you know, what's the pitch? What's the business case for fair trade? There are several, but the first one I would argue is meet the growing demand for responsible products, meet the growing demand and be successful as a company because you're tapping into that consumer. 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And speaking of opportunities, they put together the CFO's guide to AI and machine learning and net suite.com slash Scott Clary. This is the playbook for understanding how to use AI for your business. The guide is free that is net suite.com slash Scott Clary. The question I have is outside of the pitch for the company, what would be one of the most jarring facts that if somebody knew about non fair trade products, they would never buy them ever again. Because I think that's part of it as well. The company, yes, they're focused on the bottom line, but who represents the bottom line, the consumer. And if the consumer knew X about non fair trade product, they would never get it. What would that thing be? Well, there's been a lot of research and media coverage of child labor in the cocoa industry in West Africa. So about 60% of the global production of cocoa, which is the key ingredient for chocolate, comes from ivory coast and Ghana, 60% of the world of the world's production comes from those two countries. And sadly, child labor is rampant. And it's not because, you know, it's not because parents are evil. It's because they're poor, right? The poverty levels are so great there that people feel compelled, in some cases, to bring their kids to the fields. In other cases, there aren't local schools. And so if you're headed to the fields, what are you going to do with your six year old? There's no local school. You're going to leave your six year old at home alone all day. No, you bring them to the field and then they end up helping out. So child labor is a real problem and it's rooted in poverty. It's rooted in lack of schools. And so, you know, one of the areas where we've focused a lot of time and attention and other certification labels have as well is in how do we lift those farmers in West Africa out of poverty? And how do we help them get access to education for their kids so that we can overcome the child labor issue? And so, you know, one of the things we started working with Hershey a number of years ago, and they source from that region of Africa, Hershey has a small fair trade program. They're not a hundred percent fair trade. They do other things as well. They work with other certifiers and, you know, they're trying to do the right thing. But with the Hershey fair trade program, the first thing that the farmers did with the extra income they got was they started building their own schools in the first year in these countries. Yeah, in Ivory Coast, in the first year, the communities where Hershey was sourcing built 13 schools. Now, I'm talking about simple small two-room schoolhouses. But still better than what they had before, which is nothing, I'm assuming. Which is nothing. Yes, exactly. Exactly. And so then and the community negotiated with the government and basically said, we'll build the school, you provide the teachers and the government said, okay, we can do that. Wow. And so, we ended up putting hundreds and hundreds of kids into schools just in the first couple of years. And so, you know, it was a real impact in terms of eliminating the incidents of child labor in those communities. And I'm I'm so proud of that. And I'm so proud of the consumer because at the end of the day, the consumer by buying those products was making that possible. I don't know. Have you seen that? Have you seen a chocolate product called Bark Thins? I think so. Bark Thins is one of Hershey's brands. That was that that's the brand that we worked with. And you know, everyone I knew, I mean, that brand was on fire. Everyone I knew was buying Bark Thins. This was like, you know, 10 years ago. And it really made a difference in made a difference. It kept kids in school. It's so crazy to me. I've had this conversation. I had Scott Harrison from charity water on the show. And obviously, very different business. But same idea, like the amount of money required to make such an insanely an insane difference in someone's life overseas is so small. It's such a it's such a small amount of money. You you incorporate this program all of a sudden getting rid of child labor. Now you have access to education. Like like overnight, like the whole community is is lifted up. And it's not actually like your like to your point, it's not it's not even charity. It's just doing business ethically. That's that's the that's what it's it's not funny. It's actually quite sad that if you just did business away business was supposed to be done, they'd have all these opportunities too. So you're not even fundraising. You're not asking anybody for money. Is that do business the way that you do business here? Exactly. Yeah. That's exactly right. Yeah. And if you think about it, if you think about it from the perspective of a consumer, you know, there's so much going on in the world right now that has people worried. You know, when when when we think about the problems that that we face as a as a human species right now in terms of climate change and global poverty and deforestation and the immigration issue and all these issues, I think a lot of us feel like we're powerless. Like these problems are too big. And we're too small. And what are we going to do? How can we help? And you know, a lot of people are are really unhappy with politics, you know, whatever side they're on, they're they're unhappy with politics. And so for me, the story of bark thins and the schools that it helped build in West Africa to keep kids out of the fields, that's like the most powerful story of your power in mind as a concern and mind as a consumer to make every purchase matter, right? Every turn we go to the store, we have a chance, think of it this way, we have a chance to vote with our dollars for a better world, right? By choosing sustainable products, by choosing clear trade products, by choosing a reinforced alliance certified products, there's so many products out there that have some kind of environmental impact or social impact on the on the people. And so we really do have a chance to make a difference in the world in in small ways, right? But every time we go to the store and in a listen, companies, they're listening, right? Like that's one of the beauties of capitalism, right? Companies listen to their customers and they respond quickly. And so we go to the store and we buy a certain kind of product, right? Because it makes us feel good because we're having an impact on the world. Companies start doing more of that. And we've seen it, we've seen it over the last, now 26 years since I've been, you know, leading fair trade USA, we've seen companies that previously didn't really get it or didn't really believe in it. Look at this phenomenon of, you know, what you might call conscious consumerism and go, wow, we don't want to get left behind. We need to get in on that. The one thing that I think, feel free to go into this as much as you want. But I think it's an interesting idea. When a company only incorporates fair trade or any of these certifications for like a fraction of their total product line, do people get upset? Do people consider that greenwashing? Like you're trying to ride the wave, but you're not fully committing? What are your thoughts on that? Yeah, it's a great question. And you know, the reality is perfect is the enemy of the good. I would love to see every company implement some form of ethical sourcing in 100% of their supply chain without a doubt, right? Whether it's fair trade or something like it, I would love to see every company embrace that approach and go deep, go all the way. And you know, in the case of fair trade, we are blessed to get to work with amazing companies. You know, we started with Ben and Jerry's ice cream. They went 100% fair trade. In our apparel certification program, we, you know, we work with Patagonia. Patagonia is almost 100% fair. I didn't even realize, every time I think fair trade, I think food. I think food product. But Patagonia is, we're working with apparel, we're working with furniture. We just started sort of buying a company called Vagia for tennis shoes. Yeah. So yeah, we've started to expand beyond food and that's really exciting. But you know, my point is there are definitely what we think of as lighthouse brands, like Ben and Jerry's, like Patagonia and so on, that decide they want to go all the way and really make fair trade like the foundation of how they do business, the foundation of how they source products for us. And that obviously is the gold standard in my view and what we aspire for all the companies we work with. However, back to your question about what's the business case here, if a large company, especially a publicly traded company and it's kind of beholden to Wall Street, you know, they want to dip their toe in the water with fair trade and experiment and see if it works. Of course, we want them to try it, right? Of course, we want to give them a chance to prove to themselves that fair trade is going to be good, not just for the farmers and workers, but also for their business. And so, you know, that does in some sense raise the risk that we might be perceived as, you know, somehow greenwashing those companies. I'll tell you what though, we sign certification agreements with every company that we work with and today we work with about 2,000 companies in the US from everyone from Whole Foods and Walmart to Costco and Safeway and Trader Joe's and Kroger, all the major retailers. And then great brands, again, like Patagonia and PepsiCo and General Mills and all these cool brands. So in our certification agreement, they agree to run all advertising copy and packaging copy by us before it's approved, right? We get the right to approval. So if a company submitted something to us that looked like it was over representing, like saying, hey, we're a fair trade company, when in fact they're only doing a little bit, then, you know, we obviously wouldn't accept that. And so for me, greenwashing is about overclaiming relative to what you're actually doing, right? And we don't see examples of that. Actually, companies are pretty shy about, you know, overclaiming precisely because they don't want to be accused of like not walking the talk. And so here in that sense, for me, the bigger issue is how do we galvanize consumer support to support companies that are launching fair trade products so that they can test it. And based on the results of the test, say, hey, this is good for the people. It's good for the planet. It's good for our company. Let's do more. Let me give you one example. We're working with Walmart right now on tomatoes. And Walmart initially launched its tomato program. I want to say three years ago. And it was a pilot. And even though it was a small percentage of their total volume, immediately Walmart was the largest purchaser of fair trade tomatoes in the world, right? Of course. And the tomatoes were coming from farms in Mexico. And, you know, Walmart sourced these tomatoes. The farms got certified. Walmart sourced the tomatoes on fair trade terms. They paid the premium back to those farm workers. The farm workers invested in really cool community outcomes, health and education. And the label went on the product. And here's the punchline. Sales went up at Walmart. That's what I'll tell you the whole foods. I'm talking about Walmart sales of fair trade products went up over the non fair trade tomatoes. And so Walmart seeing the results in on both the farms in terms of the well-being of the workers. And then also in terms of the sales, Walmart said, well, this pilot is a success. We're going to do more. And now they're rolling out into other products. They're doing more fair trade products. And so, you know, you could come back with the greenwashing question and say, well, why did you let Walmart in with just a small volume? Well, the answer's obvious. You know, they deserved to test the model for themselves and see if it worked. And guess what? It worked. And now they're doing more. That's amazing. Yeah. That makes it. I think that I think that consumers are also very smart. I think that if consumers understand that one product is fair trade, I think that the people that understand what fair trade is, they're not making the assumption that every single product at that company sells is fair trade. They're looking and they're seeing and they're following the journey. And I think that's a very fair strategy. Because the inverse is saying, well, Walmart who has massive impact, global impact with the amount of products they sell in the volume in the district, it's just wild, right? Just a behemoth. Walmart is only allowed to do this if they do 100 percent of their product. You know what? You've just missed a huge opportunity for taking that hard and fast stance on it. I think it's a very, very smart way the way you do it. So now, I mean, some of the brands that you work with, so Walmart, Whole Foods, Patagonia, you obviously have stories about massive wins like Walmart. You also have some lessons about the things that haven't worked out. So talk to me about, I think Starbucks is one of them. Back in 2008, there was a story about almost certifying 100 percent of its coffee as fair trade. So what was the story? Because that's obviously interesting because again, just like a company's biggest Starbucks is fun. It's a fun to understand how they operate. But what was the story? What was the lesson? And then what was the outcome? Yeah. So obviously, you know, over a 26-year journey as CEO of Fair Trade USA, I didn't only have wins, right? I mean, I'm really proud of the wins and the momentum. But yeah, we definitely had a number of hard knocks and even colossal failures. Starbucks is a really interesting story. And I actually talk about this in the first chapter of my book, Every Purchase Matters. Starbucks signed with us very early on. In, so we launched Fair Trade USA, we launched the certification label in 1998. And in 2001, barely three years into the venture, Starbucks raised their hand and said, okay, we want to join. We want to launch a fair trade coffee. And that was amazing, right? To have that, a brand of that size joined us so early. And it created a lot of momentum, a lot of other coffee companies joined the effort as a result of that. And so super grateful. And Starbucks, year after year, would add another coffee and add another coffee. And then they took it to Europe. And so it felt like Starbucks was really growing in leadership and volume and impact. And, yeah, in 2008, we were in conversations with them around how to go from basically 5% of their total volume, which was fair trade at the time, all the way to 100. And they were really genuinely interested in making ethical sourcing a whole business approach. And you know, I had a great relationship with Howard Schultz, the CEO at the time, who founded the company. And in 2008, Howard and his team flew down to Oakland to our headquarters and met with us on two different occasions to seriously get into the negotiation around how could we make Starbucks 100% fair trade. And as you can imagine, I mean, that would have been game changing for the fair trade movement. And so we were, we were very keen. We were very engaged around, you know, the opportunity. At the time, we were part of a European-based fair trade federation. And therefore, our standards were tied to theirs. And their standards would not allow us to certify large farms, only small farms in co-ops. And Starbucks was sourcing from all sizes of farms, from the small farmers and from the large farmers. And so Starbucks said, hey, it's pretty simple. If you want us to go 100% fair trade, you need to certify all the people that we're sourcing from, both the little guys and the big guys. And so our argument to Europe to the European allies was, hey, we'd like to certify the big farms. That means that the farm worker who's making $3 a day, $4 a day on average on those farms, they'll get a better income, they'll get better housing and treatment. And so we really saw the evolution of the model as good for everyone, not just, you know, not just for Starbucks, but good for the mission, good for the farm workers. The Europeans, however, they had a different vision. And to this day, they have a different vision of fair trade. They really see fair trade as only serving small family farmers and not addressing the issue of workers. So in the end, they said, no, we were not able to expand our standards quickly enough to capture that opportunity with Starbucks. And in the end, we kind of, you know, went flat with Starbucks and ultimately Starbucks dropped fair trade altogether. They don't do any fair trade now. They kind of developed their own, yeah, they don't do any fair trade. They have their own in-house program. It's not, you know, independently audited. It's their own standard. They own it. And, you know, it's not bad. I mean, there are a lot of brands that don't do anything. Yes. I fold their, olders in Maxwell House don't do anything, you know, in terms of responsible sourcing. So, you know, I'm not going to throw stones at Starbucks for doing their own thing. But, you know, I think the failure on the fair trade side was not being willing to innovate and evolve quickly enough. In the end, you know, Post-Script, we ended up separating from the European Fair Trade Federation over this issue a few years later. Remove differently and you can sort of take your destiny into your own hands and I understand. And so now, you know, Fair Trade USA has similar standards as Europe, but with, you know, with the addition of a lot of different kinds of producers. So, we certify dairy farms. We certify fisheries. We certify, you mentioned it before, apparel and manufactured goods. We certify large farms in the agricultural sector. We certify farms and factories here in the United States, not just overseas. So, we've really, you know, used the last decade really since we separated from the European Fair Traders. Not to go after their accounts. It's not a competitive thing, but rather it's just about broadening the vision and the way we articulate it is fair trade for all. Why not offer the possibility of fair trade certification to any kind of producer farm factory or fishery anywhere in the world? That's the vision. I think that the very noble vision and I don't understand, I don't think there's anything wrong with it. I think it also not focusing on the workers is you have to focus on the workers because those the workers are the people that make up the community. It's ignorant to say that just the farmers are the people that make up the community. Yeah, if the farmers doing fine, but everyone else is is again, being exploited, taking advantage of that's not good. That's that misses the point. I know okay, so I want to go back and I have a couple other things that I just want to ask you about fair trade and conscious capitalism in general, but just so you plug the books that that's very important. So every purchase matter is coming out in April. If people want to read it and then want to take something away from it, what's the what's the message? Is it a couple of the stories of your career of fair trade in general or are there other things that they're going to learn when they when they read it? This this book is kind of the the untold story of the fair trade movement. So there's never been you know a fair trade insider kind of tell all about what's behind the label. The victories, the failures, the lessons learned and what it means for both business people and for consumers. And I very deliberately wrote the book with a storytelling style because I wanted it to be engaging and I wanted it to be relevant not just for business people, but also for everyday consumers who are curious. They've heard of fair trade, maybe they don't know exactly what it's about. They've seen that label or maybe they haven't. But like as you started the the conversation today, you know fair trade, you're going to see like this this idea. Yeah. But you didn't know was actually a label and a standard and I got it and all of that. And so I would say, you know the key message of this book to the business community is if you're thinking about conscious capitalism and how to engineer a business model that truly is when when when right for people and planet and profit, then this book is going to give you a lot of how to's. It's going to give you a lot of insights into how you can bring ethical sourcing, responsible sourcing and sustainability into your business, whether it's fair trade or or some other version, because of all the insights that we we surface in the book over the last 26 years of experience. And if you're a consumer and you're curious about how you can make a difference, this book is going to answer that question because it shows how at key moments, consumer demand really shifted the behavior of major multin multinational corporations and led them down a more sustainable path because they were responding to your vote in mind every day at the grocery store. A quick shout out to the HubSpot podcast network for supporting success story. Now if you like success story, you're going to love other podcasts in their network. One of my favorites is create like the greats. It's hosted by Ross Simmons obviously brought to you by the HubSpot podcast network. You're going to join Ross on create like the greats, Ross dissect the genius behind history's most remarkable creators and their legendary work. So you're going to get this blend of history and business and creativity. He has a great voice, always good for a podcast, and he has a decade of practical experience. He's going to break down some of the best creative processes that built influential companies, brands and stories in a way that anyone can apply. So whether or not you're fascinated by history, creative thinking, or you simply want to improve and systematize your own creativity without sacrificing productivity. This podcast is your perfect lesson. Go listen to create like the greats wherever you get your podcasts. A huge shout out to Lingoda for supporting today's episode. Now if you're ready to master a new language, Lingoda is the online language platform trusted by over 100,000 students worldwide. Lingoda offers live classes with real teachers available 24-7. You can choose from German, English, business English, French, Spanish, or their newest addition, Italian. What sets Lingoda apart the smallest class size in the market? It's just you and up to five other students. Or if you want, you can go one-on-one for personalized attention. Their native level teachers don't just teach language. They share culture too and you'll speak confidently from day one with Lingoda's flexible scheduling and proven curriculum. Students report being able to navigate real conversations in weeks, not years. And if you're using Lingoda for business, their CEFR align courses ensure that you're learning internationally recognized language standards that employers value. Between sessions, you're going to reinforce your skills with downloadable materials and bite-sized practice exercises. And all success story listeners, they put together a special deal. Try Lingoda free with three group classes or one private class. Plus, you save on any course with my link, try.lingoda.com slash success story and code Scott 25. Don't miss this chance to transform your life through language learning. The one conversation that we have to have about fair trade is how expensive does this create things? Does this create expense for the business, for the consumer? Because outside of money, everyone's going to get on board. But I can tell you the one point of friction for a business owner or for a consumer is, is that not more expensive for me? And I know that you mentioned the Walmart example where sales went up. But what's the cost? Who absorbs the cost? The consumer is the business. What are the commercial mechanics around fair trade? And I'm assuming there's probably a lot of misconception. But tell me tell me how this actually plays out when a business and a consumer both want to go fair trade. Yeah. So here's the bottom line. Not every company does it the same way. Some companies pass the extra cost of fair trade onto the consumer and you pay a little bit more. A lot of companies don't. So you know, the Walmart story that I shared a few minutes ago, the key brand, the tomato brand that was a part of that is a company called Nature Suite, which by the way, Nature Suite, one of my favorite companies right now, they have the little volcano shaped cones, plastic cones and it's snacking tomatoes, like little cherry tomatoes. Nature Suite as a result of the Walmart pilot decided to go 100% fair trade. So all Nature Suite's snacking tomatoes now are fair trade, which is just, you know, it shows the ripple effects of this movement. But in the case of Walmart and Nature Suite, they paid the premium to the workers and they didn't charge the consumer anymore. And so then you might ask, oh wow, if they didn't pass that extra cost onto the consumer, aren't they losing money? And the answer is no, because they're growing volume. Right? So they're going for volume and market share. Yeah. And that's how they look at the profitability of that program and say, okay, you know, we gave up a couple of pennies in, you know, in the fair trade premium that went back to the worker, but that got covered by the added volumes, the added sales volume and by the brand Halo, right? Of now offering a product that really speaks to consumers in a different way. So you know, if you look at company after company, you'll see different approaches to this issue of, of, you know, who covers the cost of sustainability in fair trade. We do have this required premium, right? We require that all the brands that we work with, whether it's Hershey or Walmart or Whole Foods or Patagonia, they all pay a little bit more above the market price back to the farmers or the workers. And that's what the community then uses to invest in health and education and clean water and gender equity and reforestation and all these amazing outcomes, right? So that is part of the secret sauce of fair trade. We are delivering more money back to families and communities around the world. But then the question is, who pays for that? And, you know, again, either a brand will pass it on to us. And it's not a huge markup. You know, on average, in my cost, five, five percent more, you know, if a brand decides to pass that along. But in many cases, it's got, they just maintain the price and the benefit for the brand then becomes the brand image. Well, that's a presentation. That's a strategic point. Exactly. And the sales volume. Yeah. I was going to, the other, the other thing that I think is interesting is when people think about fair trade, they think they think about social responsibility, social sustainability. But you've alluded to this a few times. There's an environmental impact as well. So when you think, it's so there's always like positive, like these net positive ripple effects, like butterfly, very positive butterfly effect from incorporating fair trade. So what happens outside of improving the lives of these farmers or these workers? Does this mean that you mentioned deforestation? I want to understand that environment. Also, you mentioned like you mentioned you fisheries. So is there is a responsible sourcing of the actual animals as well. So all these other incillary factors that people may not even realize happen when you shop fair trade. What are they? Every sustainability expert today will tell you that social and environmental sustainability go together. You can't save the trees if you don't work with the people who live in the forest. You can't save the people who live in the forest unless you help protect the environment where they live. The two go together. Social and environmental sustainability are really inseparable. And so that's reflected in the fair trade standard. As I mentioned, it's a 200 point checklist of social and environmental criteria about a third of the standard is environmental. So you're right. Most people think, oh, fair trade, that's that thing that helps the workers. Yeah. That's true. But we also have rigorous requirements around the environment. For example, our farmers are not allowed to cut the forests around their farm. They have to have find a way to preserve the forest in and around their farm. There's a long list of chemicals that they're not allowed to use, right? I was going to ask if there's if there's actually impact on the quality of the food as well. Absolutely. Absolutely. Now, we don't require that farmers go organic. There's a long list of chemicals they can't use, but they are allowed, for example, to use fertilizer and so on. But as it turns out, about 70% of all fair trade farmers are also certified organic. So there's a real alignment between fair trade and organic, which I just love. Most of the farmers that I worked with back in Nicaragua back in the day ended up going certified organic as well. It's kind of their expression of being social and environmental. But if they aren't, by the way, let's just say, even if they aren't, you still have you still have this list of pesticides that you're certifying against. So if somebody's going shopping and they can't find organic whatever, well, you're still going to get less garbage by shopping fair trade than just picking up a product off the shelf. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And you know, our standard is more rigorous. In many cases, even the US law, for example, you know, you can go down to your local home depot and buy roundup and spray it on the weeds in your yard. Fair trade farmers are not allowed to use roundup, right? Like that's one that's one of the chemicals on the list that we have deemed so toxic for the farm or farmer farmer or farm worker applying it as well as, you know, potentially for the consumer, we don't allow it. So those are two things, right? Can't cut down the trees, can't use a long list of chemicals. But then there are also all these other practices that are codified in the fair trade standard around protecting soil and water sources so that both of those are are conserved and so that there's no pollution in the water. So, you know, suffice to say, we really believe that the standard works on both the social or human level as well as the environmental level. And that's what consumers want, right? Consumers want to see both. You have, and you know, you mentioned this before we even started and you asked me like, okay, you know, how are you doing with the election and everything that's happening in the US right now? Because obviously I just moved down here over the past five years. And I mentioned, you know, personally, I'm very fortunate, you know, life is good work is good. It's not affecting me too much. But you did mention and you work with a lot of groups around the world. You mentioned, you say and some other decisions that Trump has made, which I guess impact a lot of the work that you do. And I don't think people understand because again, people see these news headlines about you say it or other programs or other decisions or other executive orders. And if it doesn't impact their day to day, I don't think they can understand how it really impacts the world that goes on around them. So what does this mean for you, for the people that you, I mean, you've given back, if my numbers are right, you give them back over 1.2 billion in fair trade earnings to farmers. So big amounts of money, go back to people that create our goods and our services and our food and our products, large amounts of money. So what do some of these Trump policies, things that we may not have thought of, how does this impact fair trade? How does this impact farmers, workers globally? What should we know? Yeah. Well, look, you know, for me, this question around immigration has to start with what is the root cause of illegal immigration? What is the root cause? What's driving it? And you know, there's a narrative that the people who come to the United States are criminals. That's a myth. That's just not true. Most of the people who are immigrating to the United States are fleeing poverty. They're fleeing poverty or repression, right? We know that they're repressive governments in Venezuela and, you know, in other countries in Latin America. And we know, especially in Mexico and Central America, that poverty is very, very severe. And it's getting worse with climate change when hurricanes hit Central America and farmers, you know, land is washed away. Oftentimes they hit the road and they immigrate north out of desperation, right? And so what does fair trade do? At the end of the day, fair trade seeks to provide a sustainable livelihood for people in Mexico and Honduras and Guatemala so that they can stay home. And when they can make a decent living, they will stay home. They do stay home, right? I mean, you think about it. No one wants to risk life and limb crossing, you know, the entire length of Mexico crossing the border, which is very dangerous, coming to a country where they don't speak the language, where they might get rounded up. Like, no one does that because they want to. They do it because they have to because they're poor and they're desperate. And so what I love about fair trade, among other things, is that we're helping to stabilize those families in their home community. And we have great numbers actually on worker retention, that brand, that tomato company that I mentioned a minute ago, Nature Suite, they have a number of farms in Mexico. And what they found was when they certified those farms as fair trade and started providing benefits to those farms, the rate of worker retention went sky high. So in other words, at the end of the season, the workers aren't leaving, they're staying, right? They're staying season after season. And so, you know, that for me is another indicator of the success of our model. When we see worker retention, people are staying home, they're staying on the farm, they're finding a decent enough living that, you know, that's the better option for them. And so for me, that's really, you know, at the core of the whole immigration conversation is, why do people leave home? And how can we help them stay? You know, I'll just say one more thing about this issue. Oh, sorry. I just wanted to, I think that what I want to understand as well, and then go, but just think about this. So the policies that Trump's are basically what he's saying is if you, if you get here illegally, you can't stay here. That's basically what the policy is. But what you're saying is fair trade makes it so that the people don't ever have to leave in the first place. Are there, are there ideas or policies that are damaging to fair trade on like a global level? Because Trump is not actually saying, I don't want you to go work in your home country. He's just saying, I don't want you to stay here. So are there any policies that are not good for supporting this whole fair trade movement? That's the only question that I had. But then you can go ahead. You know, our movement, the fair trade movement is trying to create a model of business that is more responsible, that is more sustainable, and where everyone thrives from the worker to the farmer to the company to the consumer. And so if you look at the current policy that's being implemented in terms of mass deportation, what you're looking at is quite possibly the disruption of some of the most important businesses in our, in our nation, namely the farms that produce the food that we eat, right? And I'm hearing this now from lots of different farmers that we work with here in the US because we, we certify farms and factories, not only overseas, but also here in the US. And there's a real concern among farm owners and major brands here in the US that the workers that live and work on those farms, and in the many cases that have been here for 10 or 20 years, you know, hardworking, tax paying people will end up being deported. And so what that does is it puts our own production at risk. And we've heard this and we've read interviews about this, you know, in other sectors, not just the food sector, but in the meat packing industry and in the construction industry and in in a number of industries where we depend on immigrant labor, you know, there's real concern about labor shortages. And I think the concern is driven in part not just by the possibility that, you know, of raids and of people being rounded up and deported, but it's also about people who are just afraid to go outside. And so, you know, they're not going to work because they're afraid of, you know, being seen on the street. So, you know, I think it's a really tough moment with these policies for a lot of the American business community. And certainly, they're alternatives. Yeah, no, I was just thinking, you know, you make a good point because you actually aren't just working with farms and and and farmers and workers overseas. You're working with farmers and workers everywhere that create products for us, including in the US that will be affected by this. Yeah. If you think about, you had one more point about sort of where you want to take the future of fair trade. Maybe think about going forward because you just celebrated your 26 anniversary, which is absolutely fabulous. Congratulations. It's not a small feat, not a small feat at all. Clerk, I started the organization when I was 15. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. No, you look, listen, you look great for 30. If you think about the future of fair trade, as the organization grows, let me know where you want to take it. But also, what are some other things, some other products that you're interested in and wrapping into this fair trade program, things that should be ethically sourced, but aren't right now. That's a great question. You know, we just started into the beauty industry of cosmetics with a company called Elf Beauty. I don't know if you've heard of them. Elf stands for eyes lips and face and Elf has had just an extraordinary rise over the last five, six years. They are now the number two cosmetics brand in America and they're going global and they're really deeply committed to sustainability as a company. And so they just in the space of a couple of years are already 80, 85% fair trade and they're certifying all of their factories over the next couple of years. So really proud of them and the ripple effect that that could have in the beauty industry. Similarly, I mentioned moving into footwear. So we just started working with a company called Vagia, V-E-J-A, kind of a cool hipster tennis shoe brand and they're really excited about fair trade and certifying their factories. And so again, part of our theory of change is how do we engage with some of the most sustainable and pioneering brands? We call them lighthouse brands in different industries and by working with them create a ripple effect that will bring others along. So really excited about that. Honestly, Scott, I mean, I'd love to see fair trade start to certify electronics. We all are so attached to our phones and the phones that we use are made overseas. So many of the same labor issues and sourcing issues with the raw ingredients, the materials. So I think there's a future in which we certify electronics and toys and all kinds of manufacturer products. But let's face it, the most intimate relationship we have with a product is with the food that we eat. And you know, there's ample evidence and data indicating that Americans are becoming gradually more and more conscious about the health implications of our food choices. Health and wellness is such a big important category. And fair trade and organics and non-GMO and things like that all kind of sit within that broader movement. And you know, the data now suggests that more than half of American shoppers are looking for healthier options. And so fair trade for me fits within that kind of umbrella group of an option that's healthier not only for for people, the consumer, but also for the planet and for the communities that are producing. So I think we'll see fair trade brands in every food product possible over time. If you add a message to the person listening to this and they want to they want to make more ethical decisions, more ethical sourcing decisions, more sustainable decisions about decisions about the products that they consume and make fair trade even more mainstream and the idea, like the ideology behind fair trade is what I think is very important. What would be the steps they can take tomorrow, the call to action that you want to leave them with? First and foremost, look for the label. When you go to the grocery store or to a cafe, anywhere that we buy our food, look for that fair trade certified label on the package. And educate yourself about what that product embodies not only in terms of fair trade, but is it organic? Is it non-GMO? What other attributes are there? I think it's kind of like being mindful of our shopping choices, being thoughtful and remembering that everything that we consume is made by someone. You know, everything that we consume is made by a farmer and their family or a worker and their family and it has an impact on the environment where where the product comes from. And so starting to think and shop with that mindset and then looking for the label, that's the biggest call to action. You know, the title of my book is Every Purchase Matters. And I really do believe that and I've seen it, excuse me, I've seen that over the last 26 years in terms of our purchasing decisions really impacting the way companies behave. It's pretty extraordinary that when companies see consumers voting with their dollars for a fair trade product, for example, companies want to get in on it and that has led to some extraordinary growth and shifts in the way companies source their products and the impact that that has. So, you know, we do have tremendous power as individual consumers. We have tremendous power to affect change. Every time we go to the store. So that's the call to action. I love it. Paul, okay, first of all, thank you for doing this. I appreciate it and I appreciate the mission that you're onto. I think it's a very noble one and it's, you know, I speak to a lot of incredible people. And I think that to be able to say, hey, listen, because of my work, because of your work, you've made a shift in not only how we buy, but sort of the future of the health of our planet of being socially responsible. That's a huge movement. That's an absolutely enormous movement. So I can just want to say congratulations. It's incredible. It's absolutely incredible. That's not a small achievement. You can build a, you can build a good company, but sometimes you have to think about how does this impact greater than, you know, my own success and my own wealth. And I think that starting a movement, not many people can do that successfully. It's a hard thing to do. So good job. I appreciate that. Can I, can I leave you with a story? Yeah, please be my guest. One of my favorite stories from my time in Nicaragua and I tell this story actually in, in my book is about a young woman named Yolanda Rivera. And Yolanda is the youngest daughter of a farmer named Santiago and his wife, Hermelinda. And I actually, I have a picture of them. They, they, they, they became famous eventually. And this coffee company Pachamama decided to put their faces on the, on the, on the, on the bag. So that's Santiago. That's his wife, Hermelinda. Santiago is very typical of a, of a coffee farmer in, you know, in Latin America. He was born into a coffee growing family. His family was very poor. His parents pulled him out of school after the second grade because they needed him to help out in the fields. So he learned how to read and write. And he's been working since he was nine. And his wife, same story. She studied the second grade, learned how to read and write. And she was helping out with her family since she was nine. And so when Santiago was, you know, an older man, he joined a co-op and they got fair trade certified. They started to selling to fair trade buyers and they started getting more money for their coffee. And one of the first things that his village did was they set aside money to create a scholarship program for the kids in the community so that they could stay in school. Right. I've never met a family anywhere in the world that didn't understand the value of education as a path out of poverty for their kids. And so you might ask, well, why did they need a scholarship money for school? Isn't school free? And the answer is, yeah, school is free in Nicaragua. And in most countries around the world that I've visited, school is free. But at that time, you were not allowed to go to school if you didn't have shoes on your feet. And poor farmers often couldn't afford shoes. So you need a shoes. You need a uniform money. You needed book money. You needed other material money. And so what we calculated was that it took about $200 a year to keep a kid in school. That was it. 200 books could cover the shoes, the books, the bus money, everything that they needed. And so, you know, for a whole generation, generations of kids, that $200 was like a wall locking them out of a better future. So what did this co-op do when they joined Fair Trade? They set up a scholarship fund $200 per kid per year. And they started sending their kids on through school. Many of them were able to go on to high school. And Santiago's youngest daughter, Yolanda, was one of the first kids to benefit from the scholarship program. So Yolanda, who's a turns out, is just a brilliant young woman. She became the first woman in the history of her community to finish high school. She went on to college, also with this Fair Trade Scholarship fund. She went on to college, went to the city, got a degree in biology, and came back home because she felt so committed to her community and so indebted to her community. She came back home, she got a job at the local clinic in the lab at the local clinic. And she's there to this day serving her community. And perhaps even more importantly, serving as a role model for every little girl in that village of someone who was able to dream big, right? Or for generation after generation, you know, young girls, their dreams are pretty limited. You know, you become a farmer's daughter and then you become a farmer's wife. And so for Yolanda to break the barrier and go on and finish college and then not stay in the city, not stay with the bright lights, but come back home to her community. And you know, Santiago and I'm really into that whole family. I'm very close to them. Every time I go back to Nicaragua, I go up and shoot the shit on their front porch, looking out over the coffee fields and Yolanda always comes by to say hi because she lives in the community. And you know, I can just see this gaggle of girls surrounding her every time I show up. And I used to think that, that you know, the kids showed up for the gringo, the crazy gringo that got coming back. Well, they were coming up to hang out with her. And I just love that. You know, it's the power of a great example. It's the power that you and I have every time we buy coffee to help young women like Yolanda dream big and become a role model for for every girl in their community. Beautiful. Beautiful. I don't think people even understand the impact they can have with such simple action. We always try and solve such big problems. We always feel so help us to solve big problems, but but such simple action can have such an impact in someone's life. The beautiful thought, the beautiful, beautiful thought. Where can people learn more about free trade? Obviously, the book will be available anywhere. I got so into the story. I totally blank for a second. Where can people, okay, where can people learn more about fair trade? The book will be available. Obviously, anywhere you can get books, Amazon will put a link in the show notes. Are there any websites for fair trade or for yourself? Do you just want to let people know? I can be socials as well. Wherever you want to send people. Yeah, absolutely. So PaulRice.org and fair trade certified.org. All the information and more. I usually ask this question at the end just to close it out. And you can take the question and however way you want. I always ask out of all the lessons and the learnings over your life and your career, what would be a lesson that you want to pass onto your kids? Because I think that's usually a very meaningful lesson that's really, you know, hit home with you. And it can be a life lesson. It could be a lesson about the world, about consumerism, about capitalism, about helping people. Whatever the lesson is, it stands out that you want to leave the audience with or even something that we haven't spoken about yet. What would be that one lesson out of your whole career, all your work that you want to, you want to let people know it's the most important lesson that you've ever learned? Man, that's tough. That's a tough question. It's a tough question. Can I give you three? Yeah, go ahead, since you can. So our first lesson is find your purpose. Whatever it is. And, you know, that's something I have two kids, beautiful son, beautiful daughter and, you know, they're both graduated from college and out in the world. And from a very early age, my encouragement to them was find your purpose. And if you find your purpose, your life will be blessed. And for me, I was just very lucky at a very young age to find my purpose, which was helping farmers and workers lead a better life. And that's kind of led me from, you know, here to Nicaragua and back again. And it's really a blessing to get to do something that feels uplifting and valuable for the world. And so I just, I feel very fortunate to have found my purpose. And I think that's the most important thing, important advice that I could give anyone. Secondly, business can and must be a force for good. Business cannot sit on the sidelines in the face of climate change and global poverty and all the problems. Business has to be a part of the solution. And especially if government is going to opt out of being the solution, business needs to step up. And, you know, again, it's such a blessing for me to be part of this conscious capitalism movement and to get to work with amazing companies that are proving that business can be both successful and sustainable and helpful for the world. So that's my second key message. And, and, you know, by the way, not every business is there. Right. So it's a journey. It's a long arc. But we are bending towards justice. We are bending towards sustainability and business is helping us get there. And I'm grateful for that. The third thing I would say is this, we touched on it a minute ago. As individuals, you and I can make a difference even in the face of huge problems. And, you know, that, that difference we can make by, you know, what we do at work or what we do in our spare time, the causes that we volunteer for, the things that we donate money to. But it, it's also possible to make a difference every time we go to the store. And this is my key message in my book, every purchase matters. Every time we go to the store, every time we go online and buy something, we have a chance to choose a more sustainable product that's good for people and that's good for the planet. And, you know, I just, I feel like right now, so many people feel powerless. And I want to encourage everyone to feel your power. Because you do have the voice and the power to make a difference. Truth on something as simple as a cup of coffee. Or, you know, a t-shirt or a banana, you can reach halfway across the world and express your grace and goodwill to farmers and their families and their kids.