Lavell Juan - Built a NASDAQ Company (Brag House) at 30 | How to Build Movements Not Companies

Why is it so hard to connect with Gen Z? Gen Z is a really interesting market, and the reason why we felt that it's really so hard to connect with them because they engage in content very, very different than the majority of people. Being able to reach them, even getting some of that is very attractive, but it's not an easy thing. What if the line between struggle and success was just one choice? Lavel Huang knows that line well, from growing up with little more than a dream to becoming a powerhouse in the world of entrepreneurship and branding. I tore my killies, and I couldn't play anymore. Coming back to New York City completely depressed. One of the things that I did was really just play video games. And it was just interesting, and I said, oh, you know what? Gaming could be social, but could also do a lot more. I feel like you have to kind of take risks. If it made sense, it was engaging, if it had a strong community, and it produced revenue, those are still the basic things. His journey is anything but ordinary, transforming obstacles into opportunities that few see coming, but it wasn't just the wins that defined him. It was the moments when everything could have fallen apart. Those moments shape Lavel Huang's vision, his grit, and his relentless drive to uplift others. I made tons of mistakes along the way, but doing all those things kind of gives you a sense of confidence, can't be scared to fail. Every step of success or work ethic has led me into exactly what I do right now. Honesty is really big thing, and that's a hard thing for people. If you can master that and saying it's okay, I think you're fine. So, Lavel, why is it so hard to connect with Gen Z? Gen Z is a really interesting market, and the reason why we felt that it's really so hard to connect with them is because they engage in content very, very different than the majority of people. And what I mean by that is that close to 90%, and I found these, I quote these statistics because they were staggering when I first researched the market, but 90% of them were considered court cutters, over 50% of them use ad blockers, and interestingly for us, close to 90% of them play video games that weekly. So, there's a lot of people have tried to throw the very traditional marketing and say, look at this, and here's some influencers and throw all these things there, and between being savvy, between being very technology focused, and also just being very influenced by their peers, authenticity is a very, very, very important thing to the generation, and so, but obviously people want to reach them because, you know, they have a $360 billion spend or disposable income in market cap. So, you know, being able to reach them, even getting some of that, you know, it's obviously a very attractive, but it's not an easy thing. So, what we did with Break House, and interestingly, you know, the first way we did it is that we actually got ambassadors, and I don't talk about that a lot, but we got five ambassadors, and I was in the whole point was to build this digital platform on the intersection of college sports, which, you know, from going to my background, it's really important to me, college sports, gaming, you know, and I do use gaming different from esports, because one, the market cap is different, you know, esports, the $3 billion market, gaming is a $300 billion market, but also, if you look at really what gaming is, the actual definition of gaming, it's the 99% of people who casually game, who enjoy gaming, who is part of their life, not the competitive, you know, people who game out in teams. So, we created something on the intersection of gaming, college sports, and social interaction, because that's obviously very important. And the reason why we picked those things is because those are three cultural forces for Gen Z, and then we actually got ambassadors, and the ambassadors came and they were like, we love this, and we actually listened to them. So, when, you know, people used the term authentic, which is used more, more now, than it was used five years ago, when we started, it is really something that's important to us, and it's kind of why we built the platform for them, around them, and that's one of the reasons why it's been very sticky. So, I think that's kind of how we've been able to do it, and happy to talk about more of the specific features of it, but that was kind of the genesis. Tell me how, because you didn't pick an easy business to start. So, this is not like an easy business, it's like obviously a little bit passionate, but at the same time, it's like passionate, it'll take you so far. So, where did you come from that you wanted to build something around the intersection of gaming, and sports, and a younger generation? Like, what was the inflection point that made you say, hey, I want to build this particular business? Because your background is interesting as well. I think that you had a legal background, obviously, had a college sports background. What was the thing that prompted you to, like, build this out? Great question, and I'm separating the two parts. You know, so college sports was always really big to me, and one of the reasons why I was big to me, I had to play baseball at UT, and one of the reasons why I was big to me is because of the community. It's like, you were part, you know, I'm a New York City guy, and went to this big school, and I was kind of, you know, lost, but you have a community. You have a camaraderie with people that are there, and that community motivates you, helps you do things. So, that was something that was really, really important to me. The first part of the story is I tore my killies, and I couldn't play anymore. And I remember coming back to New York City completely depressed, and one of the things that I did was really just play video games. I had a depression, but what it did, and this was kind of my first really kind of taste of it, I was also working with other communities, and I kind of felt what I had lost with being on a team, working with other people, and it was just interesting, and I said, oh, you know what? And, you know, through other things, you know, that was kind of the first thing where I was like, you know, gaming could be social, but could also do a lot more. So, you know, fast forward, went to law school, you know, and then kind of got back on the entrepreneurial stuff after, you know, private practice at a law firm on Wall Street. And then I remember, you know, looking at EA sports, and I always played, and they're one of our partners, so. Now, but I always remember playing college football, and of course, I played Texas, Pokemon, and I was like playing all the characters from there, and then, you know, show my age, you know, in 2014, they stopped, and they said, oh, like this image, we spring court decision, you can no longer, you know, have the game because they couldn't use athletes' images. And that was devastating to me. But the reason why it was so devastating is because it was a community. That was, I was tapped into the community. You played against people, you had that passion, you had that rivalry, you had that everything was there in a video game. And then from a business perspective, because, you know, I was a nerd, I looked at all their filings, and they made billions and billions of dollars just with that game. So I said, by taking that out, you lost that market cap, you lost that community of millions and millions of people being engaged. And I said, wow, that's really, you know, I was like, I was like, I can't believe that's gone. And I kept telling myself, someone way smarter than me is going to pretty much try to reinvent that, but make it even better. And they're going to say, hey, you know what? College sports is such an important thing from a community standpoint for stickiness, for revenue, you know, put that into a game, and people will connect. That's the social part. Someone is going to do that. So I waited. It's got every year. I finally left the law firm. I did two successful startups, and which I, you know, I exited very well. And I just kept waiting. And I kept waiting. Nothing happened. Nothing happened. And in 2018, I said, you know, I just sold one of my other companies and I said, I'm going to do something that's really important to me. If no one else is going to do it, I'm going to create that because I miss it. And the whole point of it at the time was to create an ecosystem, to create a digital space. And I remember that space because I was engaged into it. Everyone I knew was engaged. So we looked for it every single day. We talked to each other, we coordinated. We found ways to talk. I'm going to create that, but I'm going to make minds more vertically integrated that everything is in one platform, but it has all those same attributes. And that was the genesis for what I said. And I said, okay, so I, you know, I actually took, you know, everyone, our company started in 2020 pretty much officially. I went to my co-founder and I was also my best friend and I said, hey, great idea, but what people don't know is in 2018, I actually built a lot of the technology, really tried to understand it. And then in 2019, going in 2020 is when we brought on the ambassadors to kind of take a look at it and say, hey, what do you guys think of this? And then we launched and we pretty much went viral after that. So there was research. It wasn't like, you know, one of those stories that you just like launched something and everything goes, goes, well, you know, I did do a lot of research. It never is. But it's always, it's always up to that. It's always up to that. But it, but it did go viral after that. And then we went from five ambassadors to, you know, having probably 25 to 50 students on each campus pretty organically. And I think again, that's the power of, you know, building something strong in the community. And you'll hear me say this kind of throughout the entire, you know, show is like being authentic. Again, and the reason why I use these things more more is because if you want to going back to your first question, what do Gen Z value? They are very smart and they can see if you're an influencer and you're saying buy this because you're an influencer and you have a million fans. But if you do something that they think is authentic, and again, TikTok and they're like, you could be, you could be famous in the next day. And they'll be like, great, we like that, that person. And it's very interesting because, and I can see why companies have such a hard time because it's not a one fit all. So what we did is we put this community together, almost let them build a community. But we took attributes that were really strong to them. So we took college sports again, whether you played sports, whether you just were in college sports, I mean, so where you're just in college, you appreciate that community. Jess Club, just hanging out with friends like you, it was a community. So we built on top of that kind of community that's there. As I mentioned, only 90% over 90% of, you know, of Gen Z college students play video games weekly in a very casual way. And so we used that way to kind of really connect them. And then we built out fun things, you know, it's no secret that, you know, uh, draft kings and fandom, all those things are really big on college. So I was like, well, I'm not going to be a gambling platform. But why don't I gamify that kind of particular action and make it fun for people? So we came up with bragging. And bragging was really just being able to make these, you know, no, no monetary value with the actual brags. But you take brag bucks, you make predictions and you win a pot. And they're like, oh, it's awesome. And people love that. They love that so much that we actually then put a way that it can actually earn, you know, things of value more kind of like a loyalty. But again, this was a very crafted, um, you know, obviously there's always a lot of luck and stuff, but we did have a very methodical plan. And we were actually guided by the actual community. And we put that together. We started seeing the stickiness for it. And then as we started growing, you know, a lot of brands, and this was organic. Started reaching out to us because they saw that we were able to capture, you know, three times, five times more of the community than they would for my traditional ad. Tell me about, you mentioned like community and the importance of community. Just so people can, because it's so obvious to you, but for other people, it may not be so obvious, even though I think the ability to build a community is a super power for any business. But tell me the difference between building a community versus building an audience. I think by, so when you build a, in the way I thought about, think, think about this. If you build a audience, I'll start from the former, you know, it's kind of a, you know, you're building some type of content that people are going to enjoy. But it's all based kind of on that, you know, and that content, you know, could be good, could have times when it's not good, but it's just kind of based on that. And I feel like that's, you know, a little outside because you're just focusing on this area. If you build a community, you automatically have this, you know, again, I'm using the word stickiness because people are now connecting with people that they feel everyone wants to connect with someone they feel comfortable with, period. That's just, you know, it's human nature. So if you build this community that everyone feels safe and that's always a big thing for us, you build this community that you give experiences that you won't get anywhere else. You know, again, we give casual people the experiences, you know, some of our events, you, it was the proudest moment I have is I saw these students win and they were like celebrating like they were Michael Jordan and I was like, this is amazing. So you give these experiences, you build that community, the audience is going to come automatically and no matter what the community changes, I mean, no matter what they actually create their own content. So a lot of these things again, we have a, you know, full production inside, you know, brag house, but a lot of the stuff you can't make up. It's kind of like how people respond to some of the key words they say, some of the funny, you know, interactions they have, there's going to be an audience to watch them. We recently did something, you know, we did students and in our partnership with Learfield, we tested out a few platforms, we did a student one, they had every type of group supporting them, watching them, bragging on them, you know, that audience was, is now built in. Then we did something for college athletes and it was just college athletes because we're going to be working with NIL and they loved it, but it was a completely different audience that was now supporting that group. And I think that is the beauty of it is that if you start with the community, which is what we did, you now always have a particular audience because the content you're going to create someone is going to want to be part of that. And I think that is kind of like why we keep seeing success and we keep replicating everything. I'm just looking at some of the notes about how you actually built this. So you basically outright refuse traditional ads unless they're naturally created. So you've tripped like this is the strategy and this is working very well. One thing that you said, I love this quote, you can't buy community the same way you can't buy culture. These take long intentional builds and then it creates something that money can accelerate, but you can't and then you said, I don't think money can replace it referring to a community and culture. Can you expand on that a little bit more like why to play devil's advocate even though I fully agree with you? Why can't you buy community? Why can't you buy culture? Again, it goes to the sophistication of how the new generation interacts. They always goes back to the same thing. And I've seen what people have done is the traditional media, they're like, yeah, we don't want to do that. That's annoying. That's boring for us. So it's almost to a point where we, and I'm speaking to say we have Nijenzi, I'm not Nijenzi, but when Nijenzi is like, we want to be part of something. Instead of going to what the masses are going, we want to be part of something. That could be a movement, that could be what our friends are doing, that could be something we like, but we want to be part of something. So what all the other traditional things have done is they said, we're going to put this and when influencers, they said, well, you know, they really influence by their peers. So they pay professional influencers and they were like, and then Nijenzi was like, well, that's the same difference. So they just kind of see through all of these different ways. And then it changes. So you can spend all this money, get two percent, five percent, whatever, even a good number of people to respond. But then next week, there's going to be a different expression. There's going to be something different. So when you going back to the first way, you said, when you build with the community, first, the content is created. People are now falling because they trust their own community. So first thing was starting with a safe place for them. And that's the reason why you have all these brands, you know, throwing money at all these digital ads, but they don't have a central hub. What we created was a central hub where people and we put that community there. And that was the most efficient way because no matter it changed, no matter what the community is, could be athletes, could be chess club, could be cheerleaders, soccer club could be anything. You know, we had women's swimming team on, you know, in the University of Virginia. And they had such a strong community behind them. You know, and I remember one thing I say, and this is a, and I reused this story. One of our early interns, she was like, well, you know, I love this. This is great. I think this is needed, but I don't really game. And I don't think I'm going to have anything to offer. And I was like, well, you know, I disagree. I think everyone has something to offer. And she was like, I know, but I don't, she was like, I don't really game my boyfriend games. And I just, you know, I kind of don't, and I said, well, let's, you know, do an interview. And you just tell me why you like Bragghouse because you said you like Bragghouse. She did the best interview I've ever heard. And then she finished the interview and said, I'm really like, this is a community we're building together. And I really like the levels done blah, blah, blah, Bragg on. And Bragg on was such an important slogan. And I give her full credit for that to this day because, and I was like, look what you did. You created an expression because, and people followed everyone in our community inside followed it. Everyone in her University of Virginia followed it. You know, people started saying it all the time. And again, that's what money can't buy because that expression may not be the same today. I like like it was before as it is today. There's a new expression, but you also have a now a new audience who's now following. And that's just something that just, you know, money can't buy. Scaling is difficult. Scaling without losing what you've built, especially from like a community first perspective is I'm assuming very difficult. And you probably took it to the extreme because you went start up to Nasdaq and public trade company in seven years. I have to ask, this is obviously not your first rodeo. You said you had two companies before this. And you obviously were a securities lawyer before. So you knew how to navigate to a degree. But this is not, I think, the normal path for somebody seven years into building a company to take a public. So obviously the question is, why, what was the strategic importance of that? But also less less than why from like a company strategy. I'm more curious, how do you scale that quickly and go public while still maintaining the thing that makes your company in Bragg House so special, which is like this intimate community feel because that's something that again, you don't want to lose. You don't want to lose that as you turn into like another quote unquote big company. It's a great question. And I will say, probably that was one of the hardest things. Just to be honest with you, because at the same time, it's like, we created this community, but then we have to obviously build revenue models on top of it. So we need to have a real business there. So what we did is kind of really thought about, and we spent a lot of time thinking, how do we continue to grow? How do we get these models there? And at the same time, not lose what we've been talking about the entire time, community and authenticity. So what we did is I again, realized and I always kind of go back to my research, because it's my default to what I know really well. And I kind of said, well, you know, what is, you know, what do these, you know, I know what brands want. Brands want these students, they want new customers, you know, it's really an easy math there. They have a cost of acquisition. And if we can lower that cost of acquisition, which we do five, ten times better than anyone else, that's attractive for them. But what are the, what are the extra consumer? Because again, it's like you, you people start getting you money, they start paying you, and you're still you're focused there. And I'm like, and digital advertisement was kind of the main revenue source at that point. And I said, okay, well, what do the actual community want? So we started looking at that part of it. And I said, well, you know what? They don't mind being, you know, sold to or, you know, saying, hey, you know, but they don't want to be marketed to just blankly about everything. If they, what they want, they want what they want. But they're also then becomes the the quandary. Well, what do they want? So what I did is I said, hmm, let me just ask them. And I think that was kind of, and I did it inside the platform. So what I did is I created these kind of data models. And this is where the luck part comes in. I won't lie to you, but I created these data models to understand more what they want. So I created dynamic surveys that adapted to every user. I created these Braggbuck integration, which were like activity based rewards. So they did this and it kind of worked on behavioral insights. And then I had activity triggers, which just shows, you know, usage and all that stuff. And then I, and then we gamified the entire A, B testing experience. So, you know, how they respond different colors, different ads and stuff. But we gamified that into this game, Bragghouse, you know, people are still doing that. And then I took all that stuff and I said, all right, let me just categorize these behavioral insights, kind of figure out, you know, what they want. And then I said, okay. And what I realized that we were producing. And again, a little bit luck. Don't get me wrong. I realized that we were now identifying data that was very different than what everyone else was having. So what I mean by that is the data that generally people's like, how many likes, you know, what are your names, all that kind of stuff. We were, we were collecting behavioral data. And that was something that I realized soon was very different that people weren't, but people didn't have this kind of data. And I think mentioned before, like if, if Nike or anyone could say, we like this campaign, we want this campaign, we will not buy this. That's a, that's a million if not billion dollar thing to know how someone do that. But at the same time, then our actual audience is protected because we don't just run ads or do anything like that. We curate personal things. And if we know what they want, we now can communicate that and say, Hey, they, you know, this is what they want. They want these experiences and, you know, watching football or they want to do this. And now it's a quid pro quo because the audience doesn't feel like they're being oversold to. But now you're giving something even more valuable, I would think, because we were giving direct access, which is great. But now we're giving information again about an audience that's so hard to reach. So now that they can craft these brands can craft these better campaigns, smarter campaigns. And they can say, Hey, you know, what I heard you like this group of Nike sneakers, let's just give you that instead of selling you 15 ads that you're, you're going to block anyway. So in that way, it became, yeah, they all have that blockers on exactly. And that way it became a more quid pro quo because the, the audience was happy. They were like, this is great. They were doing what they were doing. They were playing, you know, it's amazing because you know, a lot of companies jet blue, a lot of companies are going to do surveys. People enjoyed doing our surveys because again, and I break it down to the simple dichotomy. Gen Z want to be heard. They want to be understood. And I can't tell you, it was like a hundred out of a hundred people who said, Hey, yes, please, you know, because we asked them first, you know, we don't sell data or anything like that. You know, we just say, Hey, and we just said we respect, respect all the privacy. And they're like, yes, please, please, please, I want to fill the survey. Please tell me what I need to do. And now we have something more valuable. And again, it's all driven by the community. If people could literally poll, which is what we do, their entire, you know, Gen Z population, ask them what they want. That's valuable. But again, it started very slow, I don't know, you slow, very methodical in building the entire thing there on top of that. So that became a very, very powerful way to scale because now, you know, it didn't just revolve around content. We didn't have these have to have these super big activations. We still do. And our scalability, I think, is increased now because of our partnership with lear field communications, which, you know, now in essence, we have this billion dollar conglomerate that owns the meteorites to all these universities. And because they own the meteorites, all the universities, we're the sole platform that their students engage to connect them to traditional sports. So in a way, it's like my dream, what I wanted to build. Well, that's how you say, no, but that is, that answers the question. So how do you scale without losing the soul and the intimacy? It's like, you give people what they want, which sounds so obvious. But I think so many brands just throw shit out of wall, hope something sticks. And that's that gross marketing feeling. Exactly. The people feel. Exactly. That's it. That's it. That's that gross marketing feeling. It's exactly what it is. There was, I was just scrolling through TikTok. And there was an interview with like Tom Ford. And he was saying it was like a, you know, one of his 30 second clips. And he was saying how he hates the word marketing because a product, if the audience wants it, should really do the marketing itself. If a product is something that people want, people will buy it. So if you have a great product, and it's in line with what they actually want to purchase, yes, you can help them be aware of it. But he was saying he hates the word marketing because marketing seems to just cover up the fact that you have a shitty product that nobody wants, that nobody finds useful. And you're just forcing them to agree with that statement completely to see that it exists. And that's just like he just, I hate the word marketing for that reason. If you have a good product that people actually want, I'm paraphrasing obviously is much more eloquent, but if you have a good product that people want, you shouldn't have to, you shouldn't have to like just berate them with ads nonstop. You should pair product with person. They buy it. It's very simple, very simple. And this is really what you've done. This is really, and I think that also, I mean, I don't know if you knew this, maybe you maybe you did understand the opportunity when you started building this out, but the access to that data is like you mentioned, it's not just like a million dollar opportunity. It is like a multi billion dollar opportunity to get access to how that particular audience segment thinks and feels and pairs, like that's huge. I remember, like I said, it was, it was designed that we created to understand it because exactly what you said, give them what they want. They'll be loyal to you. And, you know, and then, you know, the revenue models will be intensified, you know, again, to my statement that I said, money will build on that and it'll just make it better. But I'll share a funny story with you. So, you know, one of our brand partners, we always provide this report. And a report says, hey, you know, we've connected X amount of new users to your platform. Every company has a different RRI, you know, some download my app, do this, whatever we did that. And then once we had these data models, I started putting that in the report. And the report was like, you know, students from the University of, you know, Arizona, you know, are really looking for this type of product. You know, they're really excited. You know, they don't really like this type of product that's here. This is something that's really going to help the students. And this is the time that they think would be better that they can consume it. And I put all these kind of things down there. And I remember, like the brand partner was like, wait, where did you get this? I was like, oh, it's just, you know, internal. We kind of like, could we just have this on a regular basis? And then I was like, wow, that's pretty important. And so, so that's, well, you, I mean, like, this is not your business, but like you could with the data that you have, that could be a whole business model. Like it could totally be that's how that's how important understanding the behaviors. And the fact that you do it in such a way, like, listen, the world is, is, is getting more aware of how data is actually being used. I mean, it started with like Cambridge Analytica and now GDPR and CTA and, you know, Europe's very strict. US not so much, but I'm assuming over time, the US will get even more strict and sort of keep up with Europe to a degree. But you can't just harvest data without consent and just sell it to companies. And the fact that you have found, like, a way to get people to want to give their data, I mean, that's also like incredibly smart. Thank you. Very smart. I think more companies, I don't think enough companies, well, I mean, you work with some of the biggest brands on Earth and they find your data valuable. So obviously, a lot of companies don't really understand how to get that data from from their consumers. I'm like, I mean, I'm not talking about the metas of the world that have unlimited amounts of data, but the average consumer brand, I don't think has really good, really, really good intel on what their customers want to buy, especially if it's a younger generation that, again, doesn't want to, yeah, doesn't want to give that data up because it feels like you're giving it to a company that's selling to them, but I feel like with your platform, I feel like they feel like telling the platform, telling Bragg how it's what they want actually makes the whole experience better. So they enjoy it. Absolutely. Absolutely. And that was always the plan. And that was definitely by design because we knew that if we kept this community happy, just kept growing it. And again, this was to be something, you know, again, when I first started creating this ecosystem and this digital platform for them, because again, that's what I remember it. I remember this digital space where I played games and it made me feel so safe and I enjoyed that. So I said, if we create that, you know, and I think the other thing that I probably didn't mention, but I think you said it, is that in addition to giving them kind of the product and then what the product is also part of our platform. So we also make sure that they're enjoying it. We make sure that they are, you know, again, we're building on things like college sports and stuff. But, you know, part of the Learfield partnership, the reason why they approached us is because they were like, you know, when I was a kid, and even now, you know, Yankees made the playoffs, I can sit and watch four or five hours of baseball. No one does that. As a 10th age. So they're losing, even the colleges, you know, billion dollar conglomerate is losing this core engagement of the audience, which when you lose engagement, you also lose spend. So what we've done is we've taken that experience and also said, hey, how can we make this more fun? And that's a little creative. And for example, one of the things that we're really proud of is, you know, we work with every single sport of each college. So every single sport, there's a Bragghaus activation where students can enter. And we tried it out a couple of betas with baseball. And what we did is like, well, how can we make this fun? You know, it's like, you know, we can do MLB baseball, but how can we make it fun? So we said, you know what? Students are enjoying playing Fortnite. Let's just make up baseball rules, did a full production around baseball. And, you know, how many kills you have that could be strikes, it could be runs. We did this really fun thing. It was beyond well intended over, you know, it oversubscribed to it. Everyone loved it. And the RI only, you know, it's like, you know, the RI for that was a test model was really just to connect the students to traditionally what the baseball game was going on. And we've heard that it was, you know, we're still getting in data for it, but we heard that it was probably more attended than any other baseball game virtually. And people kept the scores. They know, and that was something that we wanted to do. And again, if that's the way people are consuming, and it's important to understand that. So it's like, the way people are consuming now is digitally, I'm going to use Brickhouse. And I'll know everything that's going on with this game, with the soccer game, but I'm not actually watching the game. This is how I watch the game. And that's fine. You know, that's just what because now people are interested. They have fans and stuff. So, you know, that's something that I think, you know, we, we work really hard too. And I think that's ever changing as well to make sure that we're giving the community what they want from the product side and the data side, but also inside their safe space. HubSpot is a success story partner. Now think about listening to this podcast right now. You're probably multitasking. You're probably catching 70 to 80% of what we're talking about. But let's flip that and imagine you're only catching 20%. That'd be crazy, right? It's really not a good use of your time. If you only remember 20% of what we're talking about. But most businesses, most entrepreneurs are only using 20% of their data. All the most important details and call logs, emails, chat with their customers. It's just left floating in digital space, not being used. HubSpot, it gives you the access to those insights to help you grow your business because when you know more, you grow more. Visit HubSpot.com to get the full picture of your business today. NetSuite is a success story partner. 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That's what makes a difference. You get people who actually are what you're looking for. According to Indeed data, sponsored jobs posted directly on Indeed are 90% more likely to report a hire than non-sponsored jobs. And people are finding quality hires right now. In the minute that I've been speaking to you, companies like yours have made 27 hires on Indeed according to Indeed data worldwide. Spend more time interviewing candidates who check all the boxes, less stress, less time, and more results now with Indeed sponsored jobs. And listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to help you get your job. The premium status it deserves at Indeed.com slash clary. Just go to Indeed.com slash clary right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash clary terms and conditions apply hiring do it the right way with Indeed. So your lear field partnership. You have access to like hundreds. I think 200 plus campuses. This is the numbers that I have. You may have even more at this point. But a partnership like that. It could bring bureaucracy. It could bring it could bring corporate ideology. It could bring even corporate constraints. So when you bring on a partnership of that scale, obviously massively beneficial to the business. Speak about it, but also speak about how you manage bringing on something of that scale into again, a community driven trust driven brand and platform. Yeah, I know it's a great question. And it's definitely something we dealt a lot with earlier. I will say that lear field has been so far. I've been so over a year now an amazing partner. And the reason why is because and I appreciate this because it's hard to let go of the reins when you have that much bureaucracy and you control these media rights. But part of the partnership they came and they said, create what you need to create. Obviously they check the system, make sure everything was safe and was built correctly. But they really give us the autonomy. And that has been a key way that we've been successful for it. So what we do, just kind of recapping that is that in every single university, Bragghouse creates and we call an activation, but in our platform, people can use it just every day anyway, but we'll create an activation almost like a sporting event. And that will be that people can engage and the goal, we've tested it out for baseball, preseason football, and we're going to be doing a kickoff activation for playoffs for college football. But every single sport, there will be a Bragghouse activation that people can enter. And we craft that, we do that completely ourselves. It's a 50-50% partnership. So they bring in their clients, their partners, they bring in, we bring in our partners, whoever wants to partner with that. And again, the way we're doing it, because we believe that that's the only real way to connect is a genuine way, is people aren't paying for like something to happen on one day. They're really paying to be part of this activation. So they're almost going along with the ride of what we're producing. And that is, they see RRI much, much better. So our partnerships are like, hey, I want to be a year with you guys. And there's being incorporated into all the different activations and productions the way we see fit. So that I think is kind of one of the, what I believe is going to happen is I believe that with this opportunity and scalability, Bragghouse will be the sole platform throughout every single college for people to interact with. And I think, you know, at a certain point, you go above even what, you know, it's just meant to be, and you have a bunch of other, you know, you have, it'll be the sole engagement at a certain point. So that's at least what I think the goal is for it, and I can kind of see that happen just from our current engagement. Just to understand you as an entrepreneur, this is one of, this is one of my favorite quotes. You said it on past podcasts. And I want to understand what this means because I think again, we're very much like kindred spirits. We think alike, but you said life's an adventure. Your career is part of your life. It's just one big adventure, but make your career dangerous. So what does the idea of a dangerous career mean? So it kind of goes with two things. One, and I'm going to say this, you know, but I also caveat it too, you got to take risk and you got to, you know, I think if your risk, call and calculate it, call them, you know, that you, like all the risks that we've taken, we've really thought about them. We didn't just say, let's just wing in a prayer. It's like, you know, I said, I took a year to build out the technology, test it out. I used to go to bars in New York City just to say, hey, could we have people play Bragg House on this, you know, just to see if people even liked it. So, you know, I feel like you have to kind of take risk. I, you know, it kind of goes back to your earlier statement. I didn't want to, you know, if I was going to do something and put everything into it, I didn't want to do something that kind of everyone else did or just make one product better. I wanted to do something that was very, very different. And I thought that that, you know, if it, again, if it, if it made sense, if it, you know, did all the things supposed to do if it was engaging, if it had a strong community and it produced revenue, I feel like those are still the basic things. So I've always did that. And I've always kind of said, I'm going to just go to the edge of creativity with that say, which I will caveat though. For me, I probably can go to the edge and to the point of like, either this is going to work or not work. My wife gave me a little bit of advice, which I thought was pretty awesome. She said, I never want to stop your dreams because you're very creative, keep doing it, but maybe set a goal somewhere that you need to accomplish these five things. And if you have accomplished these five things within whatever period of time, then just re-analyze and do the analysis over. So that's my only caveat to that. I thought that was very helpful because I'm also someone who really, really has no problem playing dangerously, because I just believe in it. And I think you kind of need, I do think you kind of need that passion to really do it. So that's kind of what I meant by that because, but you also need to balance yourself with people. So my co-founder is the opposite of me. He's not dangerous. He's risk adverse. And he's our chief operating officer. And, you know, I told him, you know, it's like, I was like, oh, we're, we're going to go public. We're going to do this. We're going to build this. We're going to get these clients. We're going to do this. And why I forced him, I think, almost to think outside of what the realm of possibility is because he's so gifted at putting an organizational structure on it. So I just, so my job is literally to think even bigger every single day to a point where it doesn't even seem like it's, it's reachable. But I believe it's reachable, but I also believe it's reachable because we methodically planned it too. So that's kind of what I meant by that. I love it though. No, it's like that. It's like that ying in yang of like dreamer and an executor, right? Like the visionary and the operator and it does take both. Like you can't just have one. And I actually think that it's important to have it in your company. I mean, this is a whole other conversation that I, I bring it up on the podcast once in a while, but like having, having that balance in your house and having somebody, you can be like a sounding board for all your crazy ass ideas, like in like a spouse or partner or a girlfriend or a wife or a husband or boyfriend or whatever, like it is so damn important. Like it is so, so, so important. Like I think that that, I mean, like having the right partner at home can make a break, like really. Yeah. And it's, you know, and also dealing with you too, because as a dealing with me, because I wake up with these ideas and I probably had in my mind, 20 billion dollar ideas, I just was like, this is going to be great. And, you know, and it's some, and it's hard to because it's like, you need that sounding board. And sometimes my wife and, and interestingly, my wife and my best friend are the same person and his wife very, very low on, but we're all like best friends. But I hear these two kind of, you know, skeptical people, but the sounding board is so good because, you know, sometimes it's very annoying because I just want people to say, you know, but like this is a great idea. But they'll ask all the follow-up questions, okay, well, what are you going to do here? And what are you going to do here? And I'm like, okay. And then that's how you kind of come up with the idea. So, you know, it's super important. And I love it. And again, you got the support as well. So the support is huge. Talk to me about, because you've done it very, very well, that the psychology of starting over, because I think a lot of people get trapped by their own success. So you've made so many dramatic career pivots. Like you, again, I guess this is living dangerously, right? Or in air quotes, but lawyer, sports management sort of full entrepreneur building something that's really never really been done before. A lot of people get trapped in their own success. And I think they get comfortable whether or not it's Golden Handcuffs or they've built success once and they don't feel like they have the confidence to build it again. And I think that that's incorrect. I think that it's important to feel like you can lose everything and start from scratch. I think that's a very important mindset to have, because it just makes you very effective human being. But where did that come from? Where did the ability to do this come from? Like where did the ability to leave, you know, probably pretty high paying like lawyer job and go out on your own? Where did the confidence come from? What gave, was it the people around you? Was it you just taking the chance on yourself? Was it, you know, listening to too many podcasts? Like how do people, no, it's so important to be able to do this, but not many people can? I think that's a key key part of being an entrepreneur. I think it kind of came to me first really when, you know, I was very regimented. I always wanted to be played baseball and then, you know, professionally and I, you know, train well and then I heard myself and it was really depressing because I'm like, wow, you kind of do everything the right way and it didn't go your way. And then, you know, I kind of, you know, pivoted really, you know, just kind of like straggled onto there and did very well in the law. You know, I was at a, you know, beautiful, like really big kind of Wall Street firm. And I was just like, wow, I, you start to believe in yourself. And I was like, I went from here to here. And I, you know, believed that I've been successful in each of these roles. And I was like, then I started climbing up the ladder, but the other really important part is I wasn't happy in kind of my own. I always, you know, and again, I think, I think the short answer is really just believing in yourself. And I think you have to believe in yourself. I've actually gotten even better at doing that because everyone's a little insecure. That's just life. The way I prove my insecurity is I say, I'm going to, I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. And I keep trying to do something. And that helps me get confident in myself because I'm like, well, I accomplish this. So when I was at the law firm, you know, and again, you're right, very successful there. You know, I, I enjoyed everything that was there, learned a lot. It's been pivotal to learn all the things were there. But I often said, and, you know, maybe it's a little bit of just, I worked with the clients. And I was like, wow, they make, I want to be them. I really want to be them. They, you know, we, like they pay us. They are doing what I want to do. And I think I'm creative enough to do that. So I really have to kind of think about that. And then, you know, so, you know, the confidence of taking and being being dangerous, you know, testing yourself happiness. But then I think the other thing is I just said, hey, what is the worst thing that happened? If you fail, it's a powerful question. Yeah, it's a very powerful question. If you fail, and it doesn't happen, I mean, I've still built up all these strong attributes. It's fine. It doesn't define me because this didn't work. So, you know, and I think that kind of go back to the first statement, you know, you do have to live a little dangerous. You know, I say if people are very again, and I'm not people, you know, people are calculating. My wife is calculated. So it works, it works for her. But, you know, and she says, I could never do what you can do. I do think you have to be, you have to be okay with saying, I'm going to try this. And I'm going to give it 100% and believe in yourself. And if it's fails, that's okay. You know, just try, try something else. That's what you want to do. And that was such an important lesson to me because I was just like, I tell people, I'm almost, you know, I'm probably more nervous now because things are going so well that I want to make sure that I still think methodically about everything. It's actually easier for me when I think, oh, this could fail because I'm going to put 100% in there. And if it fails, I know I gave 100%. And that's for me, all I need. If I know I put 100% in everything I did, and it still didn't work, then I'd get in everything. And I'm okay with that. I'm okay with that result. And I think you have to be okay with that result. When you start over, I don't believe that you really start from scratch. I think that you take experiences and you take sort of the lessons and you mentioned before, like the attributes from all the previous stuff you've built and you apply them to the new thing. Do you feel, do you agree with that? Do you feel like sort of you've sort of stacked skills across every single time you've restarted so that by the time you get to break house, it's actually, yes, starting over but not really starting over. And the reason why I ask that is because maybe the answer in the answer on how to be a successful entrepreneur is to start multiple things, be okay with failing as quick as possible, but then retaining the skill sets so that eventually when you start the thing that is meant to happen, you have so many compounded skill sets from all these different things of your life. Even if the actual project was a failure, the skill set isn't, is a learning and a lesson that you can use to, you know, go from zero to a million or zero to 10 million or zero to 100 million in a fraction of the time. I completely agree with that. And I think that that is something I didn't realize until probably we were a public company and I really started trusting myself even more. That's seven years into it. So from going back to playing sports, I learned about teams. Everyone has a say, you're working together. It's not, you know, I'm the CEO of the company, but getting the insight and really listening to the opinions of my team and my management and my board of directors, that's important. And I learned that very early on. You know, at first I, you know, I was kind of focused very linear, but then I kind of said, oh, these are all the attributes I picked up and those attributes have stayed me forever. When I was a lawyer, really the analytical thinking and I focused on like securities and corporate governance. And I realized I was running a business that way, which, you know, in essence kind of made it a little bit easier to go public. It's not easy, but it made it. I have no doubt it's not easy. But so I don't, I don't want to ever use that, you know, but it made it a little bit easier because I realized I was keeping minutes. I was doing, you know, I was trying to make sure that everything was proper from our accounting because I didn't want to have any issues or anything later. So then we got to that process and get audits and all that kind of stuff. Things were reasonably organized, you know, that people were like, oh, this is, this is not hard. Most startup companies don't even have notes, you know, everything is terrible. And then from my startups, you know, again, I probably focused more on the dangerous part in the happiness. But what I realized from my first one, which was being a sports, you know, sports agency, I was, I was successfully built, as a first time I successfully built a community amongst people and then connected them to a revenue model that was very genuine. And I was like, wow, that was, and it was also rewarding. It was fun. My second entrepreneurial business was a soccer team. I had a good friend from law school and he said, hey, can you, can you, uh, you know, be interested in buying the soccer team? It was, wasn't super expensive. It was a small soccer team. And they were part of a league that wanted to bring like minor league baseball to minor league soccer, excuse me, to, um, to the United States. And I remember the first thing I did is I said, in order for this team to be successful, we need to get the actual community behind it. So it was in New Jersey. We went to a local neighborhood called Ironbound, which is a predominantly Portuguese and, and um, Brazilian neighborhood. We recruited people only from there. And we had every single one in that community. Every day, remember I said, build the community. You'll get the, you'll get the audience. Everyone wanted to support people that were there. These were kids from their community. And it was super successful. We became the prize soccer team. But it, you know, I don't know a lot about soccer. But I took exactly the same way that we built everything else. And I was like, wow, this is really good. And then when I came to Bragghouse, what it was, I really just say, hey, I believe I have really good ideas. And I'm going to try my best to build those ideas in a very methodical way as I possibly can because I believe in that I've made the right decisions and doing these things. Not perfect. I made tons of mistakes along the way, but, but doing all those things kind of gives you a sense of confidence. So you, you just, you can't be scared to fail. You have to just say, if I, again, goes back to my fail, I gave everything possible. So, you know, exactly what you said is right. Every step of success or work ethic or whatever has led me into exactly what I do right now. And I think that's a big, big part of being successful. The HubSpot Podcast Network is a success story partner. Now a quick podcast recommendation. I've been listening to truth, lies, and work. They're in the HubSpot Podcast Network, just like success story. It's this husband and wife team, Al and Leanne Elliott. They break down why people actually do what they do at work. So if you have a business, if you manage people, if you have to hire people at any point, you have to listen to their show. I just listened to an episode on my good employee suddenly quit. That's an issue that we all have. And it totally clicked for me. One of the reasons I explained is why it's not usually about the money. It's about all these little promises that we as founders, entrepreneurs, managers, leaders, we break without realizing it. Like when you tell someone you just hired, they're going to learn all these new skills, but you just keep giving them the same tasks over and over and over again. It made me realize that I've probably lost a lot of good people for dumb reasons that I never noticed. And hiring is one of the most important things you can figure out. So if you manage people or if you just want to understand what makes your co-workers tick, it's worth checking out. Listen to truth, lies, and work wherever you get your podcasts. Chip Station is a success story partner. You know what separates successful online businesses from literally everyone else? It's not just having great products. It's delivering an amazing shipping experience that keeps customers coming back. All of my friends that run the biggest e-commerce companies, they use Chip Station and it has completely transformed how they handle orders. They save thousands on shipping costs thanks to their rate chopper tool that finds the best discounts. And when makes Chip Station brilliant, you never need to upgrade because it grows with your business no matter how big you get. And they offer discounts up to 88% off UPS, DHL Express, and USPS rates and up to 90% off FedEx. 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You're going to dive into breakout sessions where you can immediately implement what you learn. And plus San Francisco's legendary startup ecosystem provides the perfect backdrop for networking with all these great entrepreneurs, decision makers, industry leaders, peers who are actively shaping the future of business. From September 3rd to 5th at the Moscone Center, you're going to be surrounded by forward thinking professionals who turn insights and ideas into breakthroughs. Don't just watch the future unfold. Be part of creating it. Visit inbound.com slash register to get your ticket today. When you reinvent yourself repeatedly, I think it's a good thing. I think that people have to do it. I think that anybody who's been successful has gone through multiple sort of reinventions of who they are. But it affects everything, right? It affects your business, your finances, your relationship, all of it. So for somebody who's listening to this, who is thinking, okay, I'm motivated. I actually do want to reinvent myself, take the first step, stop or at least gradually exit what I'm doing and maybe try to do something else or maybe they're going to be dramatic about and just quit what they're doing. Not that I think that's a smart idea, but you never know how people interpret these ideas. So regardless, a lot of people listen to this show at some point will reinvent themselves in some degree. What is your words of wisdom to them? What do they have to? What are the things that happen when you stop one thing that's successful and start a new thing? Psychological, with relationships, with your friends, with your time, with your energy, with your money? What are the things that they just have to be aware of so that they make that transition a little bit easier? I think so for me, I'm a very that's again, the dangerous quote, I'm a very, I just have to do it. Jump into there and I have to do it. So I think you have to, so probably people listen is they have that passion and you need that passion. If you don't have that passion, I don't recommend it. But if you have that passion, go for that passion. And then I think you just, you need to do two things. You need to believe in yourself, which is, which is crucial. And you need to be okay with failing. How I do that? And again, I had help from it is I set out these things that my wife has told me to do that. I'm like, okay, I'm going to go until I can't go anymore. And that's I've always been. But then you can set these things. And there's almost like checkpoints because if you if you, if you mentally try to do it, at least in my experience, you won't do it. So if you're like, I have one foot in the law firm, one foot out here, you're 50, 50 in both spots, you can't really go as fast as you need to. And that's hard. So you have to, I believe step out of that and say, I'm going to go there. But I guess the, you know, which I never had the security blanket. So I probably shouldn't say that. You just do it. But I guess the security blanket that you kind of that I've at least, you know, set that was helpful. And I remember we first started. I said, Hey, I'm taking my own money. I'm going to do this. I believe in this. I'm going to go forward for the first year, like burn the burn the boats like fully. That's what you did. Just fully. But then I said, okay, I'm going to go ahead and do that. But what I'm going to do. And my wife told me that she was like, if you don't secure funding or an investment by X amount of time, I think we'll give us over a year. That's fine. Don't quit your business. But at least kind of re-analyze. Look at the things. Do the accounting over again. So I think that was a helpful thing to me. Because again, I'll be very honest with you. I will just go. And I'll be like, Oh, that didn't work. And I'll just keep on doing something else. But that was a helpful thing. And then a funny story of it was we, uh, my wife told me to do that. And I said, Okay, you know, I'm going to do that. I'm going to set it because you know, have a family now. And you know, I'm going to do that. So, you know, I'm going to be smart. So I said, I think it was like this, uh, December and December. It's like right before Christmas. Then again, investment. And we were doing really well when viral. Everything was doing great. But we didn't have any investment. And I said, Okay, well, you know, we reached the 24th. That's what it is. January 2nd venture capitalist was like, love this idea. Let us be your first people to invest. And this is going to be big. And I was like, Okay. But it helped me because I also don't. So, you know, the advice I would say is like, you know, you can't, you have to be 100% into it. And then if you, you know, need something to protect yourself, set yourself some type of reasonable goal that doesn't mean you stop. But that reasonable goal is just kind of a check-in point, you know, and say, Hey, you know, do I need to rebalance it? Do I need to change something about this though? So that was something I never had. But it was been very beneficial to me because it gives me these kind of milestones to say, Okay, love out your building is a huge thing. Where are you in your scale of doing it? I love that idea. I like that. Like, I love the idea of like seasons in your life. And, and and seasons, the way that I've sort of interpreted it always was just like this business is for a season, this career is for a season, do it for five years, ten years. But you set these checkpoints much earlier on. So at least you can say like, am I directionally moving, am I moving in the right direction, right? Am I, am I sort of progressing? And I think that like, especially when you live, quote unquote, dangerously, you live a certain way. I think it's important to do that because like I see people that I see people don't check in on themselves. And I think that they end up just doing something that doesn't work for too long when if they just took like a second and and like gave themselves like a little bit of like a like a check in point, like you're you're mentioning, you don't have to kill it, but maybe realize that like the pitch isn't good or the customer you're selling to, it's not really aligned and they're not really like buying what you're selling or like there's a million different things you can iterate on and improve and change. So it doesn't mean kill it, but this means like just check, just like just check for a sec. You're exactly right. I mean, I, I, again, we had this, you know, amazing model that I worked, but there was even like you said, the pitch, you know, we worked on the pitch, you know, I had to understand what the tam was. I had to understand all these concepts that I didn't really, really know wasn't it wasn't a bad idea, just had to kind of refine kind of what you were doing. Sometimes it's like the same idea, like said differently exactly to the customer, to the market, whatever. Exactly. And that was it. And it's like, you know, you had this great, you know, you had this great business and your 100% right messaging is so important. And one of the things that, you know, again, I feel like you cons, as long as you're going in this direction, that's good. Even if there's a couple of drops here and there. And one of the things that, you know, we had to do is I said, okay, well, what is the audience you're speaking to? Because then you have to change it a little bit, you know, it's the same business. But an investor, their first question is how we're making money. You know, so they're excited about the people and the users and hard to reach, but how you're making money. And be able to convey that and still keep an authentic authenticity. You know, that took some time. I took some time to kind of understand that is. So I think that's I'm glad you brought that point up because I think that's an awesome point too. You have to be okay to criticize yourself and change. That's, that's a huge thing because you're right. You can keep going down the same rabbit hole saying this has to work. And it won't. So I think honesty is a really big thing. And that's, that's a hard thing for people. But if you can master that and saying it's okay, I think you're fine. I think that's an excellent, excellent, excellent point because you can live in your own head. You know, you can be the, you know, it's, again, it's, it's, it's success. You can live in your own head for success, which I think we said and say, look, I did this. I did this. And I'm great. But you could also live in your head of not being successful, but just focused on one idea and thinking this was going to be. So it's like, I think the best leaders and I, and I hope I exhibit that is being able to take constructive criticism, listen, one advice I would give any entrepreneur. And this is something that I did a lot. I just sat down and talked to other CEOs. I literally set up calls with them. I found them. I went to different events and I just talked to them. You know, we were in a accelerator one time and I just sat down and just had conversations with people. And I did that because I was like, I just want to know what makes you think. I want to know what you do. And that was probably one of the most helpful things. And it's funny when you don't want anything from anybody, they have all the advice in the world. Because I wasn't asking for them to invest in me. I wasn't, I just wanted to talk to them. And they had so much to say. And it was the, and I, it probably was if I can kind of point to, you know, a few things that really helped me was sitting down and just talking to people. And when I did that, I was like, okay, yeah, you know, the way I'm thinking about this is right. Because I wasn't in my head. I was having other people that were either successful or just starting out like me. And I was seeing how they think. And I was like, okay. And I was, and it gave me things to leverage and balance. And, you know, if they wanted to give me constructive criticism, I was like, please, because I want to make sure that I'm doing everything possible the right way. I love this. I think that I've experienced the same thing when you're not asking for anything. People are so willing to give advice. That's why it's so, it's sometimes frustrating, but ultimately it helps. But I think that there is zero excuse. There is really zero excuse if you, if you are struggling with something or if you, if you aren't sure how to move the needle in your business, your life, it's really because you haven't sought, like you haven't sought out help. And you haven't really looked for it because there has never been a moment. Like you want to, forget, forget now, you know, well, you know, like you have like a people follow you online or people know your business. So obviously they're going to say yes to a meeting. No, I'm talking about like when I'm like 20 years old, like zero, zero impact on this world. Nothing, nothing, nothing tied to my name and people will still sit down for coffee and still give you the same great advice and really just pour themselves in their experience into you. You just have to ask. Yeah. You just have to ask. That's what you have to do. That's right. One of our first advisors was that he was a lawyer, but he was like more of an entrepreneur, a chair of like, you know, this big entrepreneur group and a law firm didn't know him at all. You know, so I'm going to tell me and I just reached out to him and say, I'm an entrepreneur, I'm also a lawyer and I remember, like it was first call. He was kind of like, you know, what do you want? Like in this and stuff. And after that, I was like, and I, so I immediately said I was like, I want nothing except just kind of your advice. He was like, oh my god, let's, let's schedule like an hour. He's, he want to meet, you want to do that. It's crazy. You know, he eventually came on as an advisor, but I just wanted to pick his brain. I was like, you've seen a million startups and you see what failed in them. And I'm trying not to make that same mistakes. I'm pretty sure that they're very common mistakes. You know, I just want to talk. You know, I would love to take out the lunch. It's exactly what you said. People, I was nobody. I was nobody on the map. I was no one, no one heard of broadcast, but people love to give advice if you just have to ask. I would, I would also say that now, you know, fortunate, or I'm out of position in my career, or people ask me for some advice every once in a while. And the one thing that I value, just maybe this will be useful for people who are listening, but the one thing I value is when people ask for advice and they actually implement it because I find implementation is so rare. Like I, I, I mean, I talk about my podcast a lot and how many people have asked me how to start a podcast. Like I'm sure at this point, like 50 or 60. And I know the ones that have actually done it because the people, I've given people like my SOPs, I've given people my list of equipment. I've connected people who have been past guests, so they can be like first guests on their shows. Like four people have started a podcast out of like the 60 people that I've emailed, like my podcast, like full systems to. And like the four people that started it, like those are four shows that actually like rank on Apple, like pretty highly. So it's, it's just a matter of like if you're going to take somebody's time at the end of the day, I guess if you don't want to execute on it, fine, it's, it's not really hurting anybody. But like just if you take someone's time, you don't understand how much it means to them if you take their advice and execute on it. And if it doesn't work, they're okay with that too because we'll work through that. But don't take advice and waste that information. I think that that is another reason why, and I never really understood that because for me, when I get advice that hits, I'm like, bro, I'm doing it like before we get off the call. Like if you tell me that there's something that works in whatever it is I'm trying to do, like I'm I'm literally doing it while we're on the call. But maybe that's maybe that's just a personality trait. I don't know, but that to me is like I love it. I get so much happiness when I tell somebody to like this is work for me, then I see them do it. And then they're like killing it. I'm like, yes, like that's fucking awesome. Exactly. Exactly. I don't know. Try and execute more too. It's not just collecting wisdom. It's like actually doing something with it. No, it's true. And that's another big component about is actually doing it. Like I, I mean, literally this was yesterday. Yesterday, they asked me to be on a, it was like FinTech or some like segment in the New York stock exchange. And I was sitting down and I was, you know, talking to the guy and kind of explaining, you know, the platform. And after he just started telling me all these things, he was like, this is brilliant. He was like, you should do this. You should do this. You should do this. And at no point did I say, I know everything. I literally sat there for a next week, half an hour, listened to him. Some of his ideas I thought were absolutely brilliant. Some we thought about, but some were absolutely brilliant. Even just the, the, you know, like, he came up with this slogan, which I'll happy. He said it's called Ready Player Bragg. And I was like, I like that. I was like, I like that a lot. I was like, I love that. And again, but being able to listen to that, that's really a mindset that you have to do. And then you have to, and you said it, then you have to say, okay, I'm gonna execute this. It's like, I love listening to people. It just, and then, you know, and if you come to me, I love giving advice for people. But I, I'm not scared to ask for that. And that's probably been one of the most helpful things there is not knowing it all. Was there any moments that were more difficult where you just sort of asked your, you sat with yourself, you asked yourself, like, what the hell am I doing? I'm sure there was, but there's always those moments. There's been many in my life, so I'm sure there was. But when you hit those moments, for somebody that's going through that moment themselves, how do you push through? We had two really big moments like that. First one was, so the first one, I think it was like, you know, building our business, things are going well. And then I think the economy crashed again. I think it was like the Ukraine war. All these things started happening. And it was, you know, probably a pretty low point because things kind of were stopping, they were slowing down. And I just remember kind of like, you know, sitting there and saying, wow, you know, this is hard. But I, you know, again, I always asked myself, I was like, hey, but if it wasn't hard, you know, you know, then everyone would do it. It'd just be like, you know, I was sitting. So I kept telling myself that, but it was, it was a lot to kind of force myself to say, hey, you know, keep on pushing. Things are slow right now. But you have a good business. You have all these things. And it was hard. It was really, really hard. And what I've done, the trick that I do is that I slow down. I put one foot in front of the other and I slowly accomplish everything on my list that I need to do. And that's the only way that I can get through because if I think, oh, well, this and this and I think too far and I get worried, then I'm like, you know, you, you cite yourself out. So I'm like, all right, well, what do I have to do? I have to do this. I have to do this. I've do this. I have to do this. And I did that. And I just kept doing and I said, well, you know, you still need to make a business plan. You need to do this. You need to do this. And I did that. And I think it was four months of doing that. And then I think we got approached by, well, I think at that point, we're also pitching and talking to people and stuff. And, you know, just going, and I was editing my pitch doing this again, but it was one methodical step after another. And one of our pitch, it was very successful. I think we raised like two million dollars. And, you know, obviously that changed everything at that point, but those four months before that. I had to really just say, okay, let me just go slow. Let me go slow. Let me just make sure we're doing it. The second time that happened was actually the IPO. And nothing goes right. Everything goes wrong. They're, you know, auditors, they're things there. And I just remember slowing down and just say, okay, these are the steps we need to go to IPO. Period. I'm just going to do one. Finish that. Go to the next one. Finish that. Go to the next one. So in my mind, I didn't even, it was, it was a very linear way of thinking. And when I got to like, you know, maybe almost the last three steps and I was closer to it, then I could think a little bit with more emotion and kind of thing. But before that, I just said, you got to one foot for the other. And it was the, it's, it's what has always worked for me when things get really, really complicated. Just take away the emotion. That's hard. Take away the emotion and just put one foot in front of the other. Before, before we wrap up, I just want people to understand a little bit more about how they can participate in the Brighauss universe and where they can go to sort of see what you're working on and just immerse themselves. So where would you want people to connect with you and just go and explore more? I think the website, we have a pretty awesome platform, creating account, go to www.brighauss.com, create account, jump in there, you know, play, join other communities. You know, we have everything from the public side to the gaming side, to the community side on there. But I would just say just, just jump on there. Just jump on there, you know, start a, start a, you know, start an account. And you know, I think you'll see how much fun it is. And again, we are really just, you know, with all the success, we're still really, really just starting, you know, in December, we're going to be doing 12 SEC schools that are going to be participating, you know, after that, we're going to be moving on and getting, you know, Midwest schools, California schools. So, you know, more things would be there. But again, it's the community that makes the platform. So, you know, I would say just start an account, jump on there and, you know, I think people will be really pleased. If you could, if you could go back and tell your 20 year old self one bit of advice after all of these entrepreneurial journeys that you've been on, what would that piece of advice be and why? That's a good one because it's kind of hard because a lot of these things kind of shaped what you were doing. But that could be an answer too. I've actually heard that before. That's a very, I think that's actually very wise, but I'll let you go with it. But yeah, I mean, it, well, I just, it's, I, a lot of the things I learn is because of, because of all the mistakes and successes and stuff I have, I think if I had to tell myself one thing, it would probably just be believing yourself and don't quit. That's what I think I would just probably want to tell myself because, you know, and I never quit, you know, but I, for more of myself, it was kind of proving that I can do something. So it was almost saying, I'm going to do this and not know if it's going to be successful, but I want to prove it to myself. And, you know, having that confidence, I, I now, again, I listen to everyone. I want to be, I want to make sure always stay very humble and accept advice. But believing in yourself early on and saying, I can do this and having that confidence to do it will alleviate a lot of the other stuff. Now I feel comfortable in saying, Hey, I can make this decision here. And I feel like it 80% to 90% that's the right decision. If you've only passed on one lesson to your kids, and that was the most important lesson that you've learned outside of betting on yourself, I think that's a very important one. But what would be the one thing that you'd want, like your kid to learn that they can take through their life? I think the other thing is to have a good circle around you. I think that that's really important because I believe I've always had these attributes. But every step of my way, I had people who believed in me, people who, you know, gave good advice and people who were actually trustworthy. So I would say that the people you hang out with, whether you're friends, whether your colleagues, you know, I would say make sure that those are the people that you feel comfortable around that they add value to your life because, you know, I get all the credit. I mean, I get all the blame to everything goes wrong, but I get all the credit. But, you know, if it wasn't for my co-founder, you know, if it wasn't for my wife, if it wasn't for mentors, you know, I clerked for a federal district judge who was the hardest person on me in the entire world at the law firm. I had several mentors who pushed me harder than anyone else pushed me before. So it's like, you know, those were people, you know, that were like, you know, even best friends. And then I had a lot of negative people around me too. You know, I'm a very slow both ways. You've got to be careful. Yeah. I'm a very social person. And I had people who, you know, probably shouldn't have been there. So now I have a lot smaller circle. And but the people that are around me, they know they can tell me, I don't agree with this. And they can tell me, but this is the way I would do it. And I have absolute trust in them that they have the best interest for me and for the company. So I would tell my daughter that I would say, you know, that's a really, really important part. In addition, you believing in yourself, you have to have a really, really strong circle of people who also believe in you, and I'm going to push you up.