Jack Butcher, Founder of Visualize Value | How to Build a $1m+/Year Course in 1.5 Years

Welcome to Success Story, the most useful podcast in the world. I'm your host, Scott D. Clary. The Success Story podcast is part of the HubSpot podcast network. The HubSpot podcast network is the audio destination for business professionals who seek the best education and inspiration on how to grow a business. The hosts in the podcast network act as on-demand mentors for entrepreneurs, startups and scaleups, offering practical tips, resources and inspirational stories. Listen, learning grow with the HubSpot podcast network at HubSpot.com slash podcast network. My guest today is Jack Butcher. Jack is a designer, entrepreneur and founder of Visualize Value, a content platform teaching people to communicate visually and build great online product. Started off as career and graphic design, spent 10 years working in Fortune 100, advertising in New York City, he quit and he decided to do his own thing. Today, after several successes and failures, he has grown Visualize Value to over $100,000 in monthly recurring revenue. He has created several courses. He has created a huge following on Twitter with hundreds of thousands. I think Visualize Value has 190,000. I think his personal Twitter account has over 130 or 140,000. He has hundreds of thousands of followers on Instagram as well. So we broke down how he made Visualize Value successful. So first, we spoke about content and how do we figure out what, how do you figure out what resonates with your audience? He did it with Visualize Value. We have to figure out how you can make content that resonates with an audience on platforms like Twitter and Instagram so late in the game. So he broke down his strategy. We spoke about community. How do you build a community around your own brand? We spoke about why and how he had so much success on Twitter, in particular when so many people are just stagnant with their growth. We spoke about course creation. How do you justify monetizing your own knowledge? What makes a good course? What differentiates a course and a course creator? We spoke about the concept of leveraged income versus passive income. We spoke about maintaining longevity in a brand, your own brand, your company's brand, your product, your service. We spoke about tips on building a personal monopoly and doubling down on who you are and yourself and what you offer the world. And then lastly, we spoke about some of the challenges of being a full-time creator and what a full-time creator looks like and what their day looks like, what their life looks like and some of the struggles and nuances that Jack has discovered over the past two years where he has built out this incredible brand and company. So let's jump right into it. This is Jack Butcher Founder of Visualize Value. Yeah, I didn't mention this in my story, but I only started, like I was running this ghost agency while I had a full-time job. Like, I- Thanks again for joining me today. I am sitting down with Jack Butcher. Jack Butcher is a designer, entrepreneur and founder of Visualize Value, a content platform and social media brand teaching people to communicate visually and build great online products. I am going to let Jack discuss his career and bring us up the speed, but Cole's notes, he was in corporate Fortune 100 in graphic design. He worked in his own agency, realized that that was not the entrepreneurial dream that he wanted and then moved into productizing his skills and building out an enormous Twitter and Instagram following with Visualize Value. He built out courses as well, created a community. And if I'm not mistaken, ramped to over one million in revenue, I think top line in just under 18 months. So congratulations, obviously quite a career and quite an accomplishment, especially just in the time frame that you did it when you sort of figured out what worked. So, you know, I'm very excited to understand because I think that everybody here looks at where you are at right now and eventually wants to achieve that independence, that freedom, that quote unquote ability to be your own entrepreneur and to build your own thing, but obviously you didn't start there. So let's unpack Jack, let's figure out where you came from and how you got to where you are here today. So thank you. Thanks for having me, I appreciate it. Yes, so graphic design, corporate background in some respects, but I actually began my career working for a entrepreneur in a small advertising agency in New York, five staff in a tiny little room in West Chelsea. And that I think is probably a lot of the foundation of where I am today. And in a number of ways, the guy that started that and managed to sort of wrangle the business of these huge corporate clients as a small entity, like being exposed to the fact that that was possible, I think planted a seed early on for me. So this is a new thought that I've been sort of playing with for the last couple of weeks, but all of the different experiences I had in the first 10 years of my career have kind of culminated into creating this thing that is, it's hard to identify the exact catalyst for each decision in the business as it stands today, but looking back, yeah, I started as basically design in turn, making tea in a little agency business in New York. Did that for a couple of years? That business actually got shut down. I moved in house to one of the clients to keep my visa. So I'm originally from the UK and did that for a couple of years and then started just basically bouncing around the agency scene in New York. So from this tiny boutique agency where I had a relationship with the founder to a 13,000 person digital consultancy with 45 offices around the world that works with big fortune 100 fortune 50 companies in some cases and so did a lot of different jobs within that agency move to smaller place, back to a bigger place, worked in house at Bloomberg for a little while, maybe had I think close to 10 full-time jobs before I made the leap into building my own agency, which essentially was a replica of the businesses that I'd known today and I think this is the process of going through that and failing was instrumental too to finding a different or to pursuing a different model in the end. So went from employee at all of these different agencies, tried to basically increase my economic upside by moving around. So you get your 5% pay rise, your 2% pay rise and then you start to get to a place where you're the room above you is less than the room below you. So it's not to think about how much more upside exists in this situation, how much more is there for me to learn in this world and not that there wasn't any more room to run or any more to learn but I did start to feel like I was waking up and doing the same thing every day and running out of the learning curve start to flatten off. So you start at the bottom of a business like this and you learn more and more and more and by my 7th or 8th agency I started to, I was in a position where I was exposed to the workings of the business a little more than I was when I started out. So you start to see the budgeting, how's time is spent. You start to run the pictures yourselves and get into those negotiations and that's when I think a light bulb went off and I was like there's a huge amount of opportunity here just based on the fact that company X is spending this amount of money on this many emails for example or this campaign to launch this thing and there's an element of this entrepreneurial naivety and arrogance that comes into that at the beginning was like I can do this better I can work harder and I can deliver more for less and the reality of that situation is often that is often not the case right. Your energy can carry you so far and that's what happened to me at the beginning of the agency like starting my own agency it was so charged up and energized that you can make up for that sort of deficit in infrastructure just pure like 27 year old I think was it like the energy that you still have and you can wake up early go to bed late and keep grinding out and then you reach a crossroads which is what happened to me which you know I had a big enterprise client I was doing most of the work myself had a few freelancers come in and out but then you reach this crossroads where if you really want to support businesses like that over the long term you need a big team you need to have an office because they expect to come in and sit with you and I was like organizing we work spaces and you know just pretending to have a business that was bigger than it was in terms of infrastructure in order to satisfy people and then just hit a wall burned out but making it okay money maybe like clearing a little bit more than I would as a salary employee but the amount of stress on top of that was also incredibly significant because there's so many things that you've never done before never accounted for and you have I didn't have any element of specialization to the business it was just a creative agency so basically if you have a creative task that needs to be done we'll try and estimate it and deliver it and that is not you know that's not a scalable business model unless you just hire tons and tons and tons of people and that's where the idea for Visualize Value came from essentially was what can I do this way narrower than this and not a lot of people are either interested in or good at and the idea initially sprang from building pitch decks so in those 10 jobs I'd had and in the early days of building my own agency the thing that I felt that I had an advantage in or had like an inordinate ability to focus on was this idea of like visualizing concepts and selling a story visually which normally took the form of a pitch deck and the few people that had seen them that weren't my clients at the time were like oh can you help me do that for maybe their entrepreneurs or had small businesses and that was when the transition began from you know agency that does anything to slightly more specialized on this very specific style of design to then grow in a social presence and seeing that there's opportunity to produce products that have way less of a relationship to the amount of time I spend on a daily basis delivering work so so everything seems very linear and the progression makes sense from career into building your own agency and a lot like you mentioned a lot of people do that they make that jump because they have that entrepreneurial naivety and they think they're going to make it and do it better than you know the last 10 bosses could but that's not always the case especially an agency work which is very difficult but the the curious part of your story is when you decided to move away from you know one stop shop for everything agency and decided to make so walk me through because people are listening but also watching and maybe for YouTube we'll have to put up a little screen capture of what these are how would you best describe the first iteration of what visualized value is because the way I interpret them now when I look at it I see them as visual representations of various theories or quotes is that the best way to describe them yeah that's that's pretty spot on I think to begin with they were it was just adding visual context to an idea so that began as literally PowerPoint slides so instead of putting up a slide with 15 bullet points on it and watching everybody in the room's eyes just glaze over try and simplify that down into a visual representation of the thing you're trying to convince them of or you the thing that you're trying to help them get their head around and a simple example of that in a commercial context was like if you imagine you're presenting a campaign idea to a automotive manufacturer and you contextualize where they are in the consumers mind relative to their competitors right where is your advantage you could write three paragraphs to explain that or you could do like a two by two and say you know people make this decision emotionally versus rationally for example right you sit on this end of the spectrum versus that end of the spectrum and those simple things that were you know kind of throw away thoughts at one point were actually the thing that was that made me successful in the agency world it's like that was I would get asked to work on these pitch decks for that reason and then the pitch decks were the things that made it possible to win the business when I was out on my own but you weren't actually getting paid to produce the pitch decks right those are the basically the conduit between you and getting to work on the opportunity so you make this really unique thing and tell this really unique story to win this project that's a pretty in in some cases generic right that that wouldn't be distinguishable between you and another agency or at least in my case like out the the first set of deliverables for the agency was a video campaign and that's not my bread and butter not my like not my passion by any means or not something that I'm going to excel at beyond like some of these really specialized agencies that recruit from film schools and all of these different like hyper focused things so discovered that you know you can't really be competitive at something that you don't love so then yeah I just had this realization that hang on a second there's value in this thing even though this is not the thing that's being directly monetized right now there is a there is a value to this thing because it's facilitating this transaction it's helping explain something to someone that didn't understand it before and then focusing on trying to figure out how to bring that to market as a product versus the product of showing that thing to someone being the product so you're kind of cutting out a step and and taking that and turning it into a pro what was the first iteration of that product was it you building a social media profile brand community around the product or was it actually trying to productize it so it was a service business to begin with so it was there there's I think this is a common misconception that there's this like cut off point where okay I'm doing this now but it was more of a okay I have some corporate clients I'm doing this like generic creative work but I'm going to start to promote the agency with this more specific aesthetic so I'm kind of failing in business at that point right I'm I'm completely burned out making okay money everybody I tell what I'm doing is like wow this is the most incredible thing ever but it doesn't really align with my experience so start reading more start discovering you know great authors that have written about the things that I'm struggling with and started basically applying my skill set to that content so like the Seth Godans of the world Navarrava can find there the things that they've said that helped me sort of break through some of these barriers in my understanding of how to operate a business turn that into an asset that was uniquely you know that had my unique perspective embedded in it which in this case was these visuals and that kind of became this this different magnet for my services as a as an agency so a few people reached out and they're like oh could you help me visualize my ideas or I have trouble explaining this thing and when I looked at that visual it helped the idea land for me and I think people can kind of reverse engineer what it would be like to have their own ideas represented that way or their own talking points represented that way so posting a few of those visuals early on wasn't called visualized value it wasn't like I'm not starting this thing and calling it this thing it was my my agency's still still exists it's called opponent and that was like this idea of like contrarian thinking and like we're gonna challenge you on your ideas and we're gonna push you to you know that's a clever the clever the clever theme for a business I like that a lot actually thank you yeah and it resonates with people but when you run into like fortune 500 infrastructure it doesn't matter what your intentions are it just you just get like completely worn down so that was like I loved I loved like building out that brand and that story but it's really hard to deliver on the promise because of just the experience that I'd had today and like my ultimately my naivety that I could do that individually not saying that there aren't great agencies out there that can like lead big businesses in new and different directions there are but did I want to go that route or did I have the skill set that I felt like I was the person to go and do that no so I would have taken time but yeah exactly an amount of time to get and this is where you're like you have to be like I think you have to love different things like I love making the stuff and yeah if you're like really good at coaching people individually or you know like strategically leading a group of people in a certain direction and investing years in like coaching the leadership team of a business that's a different skill certain people do that well but that's not that's not me yeah so started posting this stuff and then that just became more of the mix of work so people were approaching me specifically for visual narratives whether that was a pitch deck a landing page that explained their process and there's a few people that I just had as close friends that I'd met in entrepreneurial groups on the internet and meet ups that I went to in the city that when they'd explain their business to me I'd be like oh have you tried explaining it like this or you know you can distill your value proposition to this one diagram this one slide and I thought it was so obvious and they look at it and be like wow that's great I'm going to start using that this napkin sketch so then like the dots started to connect I was like okay I can really narrow in on this and there's not going to be you know there's no dearth of opportunity for people that want to more clearly communicate I'm not going to run out of your country so then visualize value is born and all of the think learnings from that had been beaten into me in the corporate America world where it's like pick a style stick to it build visual equity stick to your brand guidelines that's definitely you know that training kind of kicked in and that's why the aesthetic is very specific and you know spend time choosing the name and getting all that stuff to out in so yeah it wasn't a smooth transition by any means but and still isn't right so so you're so you still take on new projects and I think that even now you have now you have I guess two courses based on and one of them one of them is on creating these creative assets these like visualizing value but the other one is just being what I guess productizing and monetizing yourself as an individual and and what you know so even now you're still you're still creating new ideas to to sort of help people in the in the internet economy to actually tap into a different form of entrepreneurship that isn't an agency or isn't a recurring SaaS product if you had a technical background so okay so let's so now that that makes a lot of sense so you launch the course the the way that you've scaled it to a million dollars in revenue in in 18 months that's also slightly unorthodox compared to many other course creators that launch on you to me your skillshare or whatever so walk me through walk me through your strategy for your growth as a as a course creator yeah and as a brand sure so the we haven't spent any money on advertising ever zero zero dollars on ads and that's been the signals you get back from the content I think has informed the uh um inform the journey massively so I started my started soliciting for business for a opponent on Facebook this is like I don't even know how I ended up down that rabbit hole but maybe somebody uh this is like the Facebook ad algorithm working a treat right they're seeing what I'm reading what I'm looking at I go on Facebook and it's like join this thing like scale your business do this thing so I end up in all these different groups and things and um I just uh for whatever reason I get it's a really closed garden right the Facebook things started to get really like it's these like really micro economies of the same kinds of people buying stuff from one another and there's a few dozen people that are sort of sustaining each other's business and you know you can whatever opinion you want on that is fine but it was really when I've discovered Twitter that the dynamic change completely so the open network of Twitter if you have if you I think if you can produce content that has like this natural velocity to it like it will get shared organically it really opens you up to all manner of possibilities right depending on depending on the products you create depending on the work you do I think you can use an organic audience that is attracted to a very specific type of creative output you can offer all manner of unique things to those people and the course thing was never really in the never really in the roadmap or something that I even thought about doing so the first six months was really just consulting and design projects and just getting more and more narrow on that so obviously the bigger the the bigger the reach becomes like the more the more choosy you can essentially get with who you work with right you can qualify the people that are going to get the most out of what you do the people that you want to work with the most and that was that was going well and the network was just growing naturally on Twitter and it was actually a tweet by David Perrell you know David Perrell yeah the yeah he's a incredible writer obviously that's just thing yeah and he he wrote a tweet in maybe May of last year saying one skill I really want to sharpen up this year is my ability to design and he I think tagged visualized value in that post and is like this is something that I'm studying and that again is like because you have the audience and the reach you can act quickly on a concept like that and there's an element of social proof in his you know in his acknowledgement of it so that was just a quote tweet I believe I said is anybody you know if I was to put something together on this topic like a asynchronous course that you could go through would you be interested in it and it got a great response so then I said okay give me a week I'll make it and that that decay that that did well and obviously you have the content engine that's still ticking in the background which is bringing more people in to hopefully see expose the people that might want to learn that to that content that I think we ran that for like three months very specifically and you can imagine how tight of a relationship there is between posting these images that are the output of this like holding this skill set yeah and then yeah maybe three or four months after that a lot of people reached out to me and they're like how did you take design as a skill set and codifier into this curriculum that people can follow and I hadn't done it before but it is a you know it's just an exercise in design thinking it's just a different different sort of different slant on it right so how do you structure information how do you break up these principles into a sequence where people can kind of a step ladder of knowledge right you interviewed some of this principle in that principle you haven't do this exercise so there was essentially someone else in the Twitter audience challenged me to codify that and that thing became another education product called build once self twice which is how do you productize something that you have stumbled on really specifically right like those ten years of corporate experience and like couple failed businesses landed in this place where there is this skill set that you don't necessarily need a higher me to capitalize on that thing you can buy it for your designer you can learn it yourself you can start to bring these principles into your work so that became uh and that's not just true of design right there's anybody that has a very specific skill set can scale their knowledge that way so so I'm gonna let the dog out no no it's all good um no I was just gonna I was gonna say that um I'm not sure if you if you if you did this purposefully or not but also I found that everything you did you built a great community around it so it wasn't just putting out great content like there was a great community that you built it and if I'm not mistaken uh even the products that you the the the course the final the second course I'm not sure about the first one but did you build those in public as well like you involved the community and so that's something else that I noticed that uh people that do it very well especially on twitter just because it seems to be like such a huge or the organic reaches immense compared to many other social platforms so walk me through if you have any tips on on building that community because if somebody does build one sell twice that's they have a product fine but how do you build this reach because that's really what's going to really benefit right yeah I think um one of the one of the advantages I have as a designer and one of the things has been like extremely um instrumental in the like the development of my career is showing my work so it's like nobody's ever cared about my degree nobody's ever cared about where I went to school every interview I've gone to every like job I've even uh every project I've gotten to work on internally and agency has been because of the thing I did last so and you have a very tangible set of assets to point to as a designer because you produce a portfolio of work like this is a project I worked on this is a brand I designed this is a website I built and I think that was almost a subconscious advantage for such a long time because I'd always had that mentality right so it doesn't it doesn't matter what you tell me show me what you did and that's how uh that's how I managed to move jobs and get a job in the first place by showing my portfolio so I think that's in that's a skill that other not even a skill it's a practice I should say that other um that other industries and other disciplines are coming around to now so if you're you know if you're academia does this like they publish what they're thinking about right they're always producing uh there's always an output of okay this is the research that we've done this is how we're going to present it this is you know our thesis and I think convincing people that whatever it is you're thinking about you have an opportunity to like produce deliverables that convey that right and that to me is it's like a fundamental shift in thinking that seems completely obvious to me as a designer but when I introduce that concept to other people they're like oh yeah that's a great idea I'm going to start doing that and the idea that you think you're going to get discovered or people will you know actively seek out your thinking without doing that is I mean it's insane when you look at it that way but it's obvious but that's what everybody does that's what everybody does right right you that someone's just going to come and like pluck you out and be like oh can you yeah can you tell me on your services and you know the way the I mean the internet is just a monstrous force in that equation right every there's an aval quote the the internet the internet democratizes consumption but consolidates production so if you're the best in the world at anything you get to do it for everyone and that's like a really huge overlooked force in society I think that just because you've had this experience offline or because you have this anecdote over friend of yours that got you know that new somebody and got this job here proof of work is now like the currency that is going to move your career forward I think in almost every field and people who can produce visual assets or tangible assets or record podcasts or make videos are just that much more likely to generate luck you know create relationships at scale because you know it's just sheer surface area and that is just a the one thing I think that it's hugely underestimated and it takes a long time to build it and get good at it and all of those things but yeah that but that's what differentiates that's that having that asset right is what differentiates I just want to take a second and thank the sponsor of today's episode have spot how spots CRM is the easiest tool you can 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way to ideate on on how to productize your your knowledge and your your experience but also part of that is also the the building the community building the brand and that's is that the core lesson the core learning is to is to show your work in some format or another and I guess I'm just thinking through like for for somebody who isn't a designer podcast YouTube whatever it may be that's probably the easiest way there are there are other ways that you can show work I'm just curious I don't know yeah if there's something else that you would recommend people do to build up this brand well another thing that's interesting and this is like there's so much nuance to this and it often doesn't get covered in conversations about it but the one of the fundamental things I think is do you have a skill set that allows you to produce a result for someone on your own if you do then you have a massive opportunity to teach other people that skill set right if you're a a designer a writer a video producer if you produce something tangible or you have you can analyze data in a certain way there's it's like reverse engineering the result so a huge part of the curriculum is to get people focused on the result they generate and then essentially build things that help you deliver that result with a less linear relationship to your time over time so you begin as a designer that spends three days with a founding team getting all the information out of them and then turning that into an asset the second iteration of that is you have systems to collect that information from them and you write better questions and you spend less time you spend less time like grilling people individually so it gets more and more efficient and then eventually you have a program that's so watertight because you've sent a hundred people through it and you've like figured out all the blind spots and figured out what you need to introduce somebody to at what time in order to get them to think about something in a different way that helps you like slowly divorce your time from the delivery of the result but I think that is the introspective question that all of this begins with is like if I if I can create leverage for someone else on my own then I can produce an asset that essentially replicates my ability to do that and that like we're in a period of time now where it's really hard to build that very specific skill set and stay focused long enough to be able to produce that result right when I started my career I would get like two text messages a day and I'd read them on my lunch break people that are like practitioners and trying to learn skills now are going on Twitter or Instagram every 45 seconds and it feels like you're missing the bow every time you look at something else right it's like oh I should be working on this or I should be you know I should learn that skill or I should be following this person and and like emulate what they're doing so I'm really empathetic to the fact that it's harder or at least my perspective of it is it's really difficult to build these standout skills yeah you have that shiny object syndrome for sure right that's that's always an issue now with social and constant exposure and you're always questioning whether or not you're doing it right even if you're getting results should you redo it or learn something new or do it a different way so how do you how do you personally focus on what's driving results and not follow that shiny object all the time it's increasingly difficult right the the amazing thing about building a business like this is it sort of trails your curiosity so you have to you have to be interested in something that you're not quite great at in order to continue to like deliver those learnings to people who haven't gone down the same path as you but you also have to recognize when you are like just completely distracted and wasting time and that's the the like the amazing thing about the internet is it cuts both ways right you can go super deep and build one cell twice the addressable market for that is enormous you could go and sell that for a decade probably right there's enough people that have not been exposed to those ideas but you can get in this little echo chamber where you've you start to burn out on on that thinking because you've been teaching it for a year for example but then you you could switch too far in a different direction right or for me like my shiny object is crypto so I'm like down all these different rabbit holes you know I played around with NFTs this year and I'm incredibly like I'm a huge believer in all this technology but there's also a cost to being distracted from the thing that a hundred thousand people know you for for example true and if there's so many now there's so many projects right it's even hard and they all have some level of technical aptitude and competence behind them for the most part and so so you know and then you're you're but the same like in any in any side you know side interest like even if you're looking to invest in traditional stocks or or anything really you just have to now crypto as an added layer of complexity because you have to understand the underlying technology it's not like you know you can just go on google and understand the latest project because it's functioned like the past 200 or 300 projects right everything's so different yeah and and this is I think this is another interesting there's a huge philosophical and political layer to all of this which is the amount of bias to the success stories that something like social media exposes right it's like why would I sit down and learn a skill for five years when I can make a seven thousand percent return on this thing in 24 hours right and if I get and if I get a shot at that every single day for the rest of my life why would I you know why would I ever learn a skill so I think there's a there's a really the speed of it and again I'm close to it feels just bonkers to me like even in the last six months or so I literally see it show up in the interest in the stuff that we produce so try and get somebody to sit down and spend six months building an asset that they can sell for three years versus like hey put 50 dollars into this like meme coin and then you can be in great shape for the rest of the right it's going to take people going through and crashing through those cycles to learn that that's not a sustainable strategy but um but yeah I've really say I know real estate investors that have multiple properties that are now fully in and like completely like they're not looking at units anymore they're just like I need to figure out crypto and that that blows my mind it blows my mind because you know some of these some of these investments and I'm not like it was I'm not an expert but like something that has like a billion dollar market cap like you can't liquidate that like my if everybody who owns it liquidate it's like like it's not sustainable so and like I think you know some of the numbers are just insane so you know it's I think this is part of a larger narrative of chasing after everything you see on social media you see the the fancy lifestyle the car the guy that's a crypto investor that drives like five Lamborghinis and you're like oh I want some of that and like yeah that's nice but that's not that's not the norm right that's not that's not reality in my in my opinion it would be of course yes would I love to invest a couple hundred bucks and then retire yeah but also would it be nice to have something that I know is you know I see the the 5% or 10% growth in the business that I own that I spend maybe 10 hours a week working on or 20 hours a week working on and that's safer it's not it's not fun dealing with some of that stuff some of the the upsides huge downsides even bigger right but yeah it's funny that you mentioned you don't calculate is just how beat up you get by it when you get it wrong and that's like way like that that's a way bigger drag on your long term achievement whatever you want to call it then the momentary upside you might get if you catch some luck it is you know casino territory right even these assets in the crypto land that have gone up yeah 10,000% from inception required you to have 10 years of conviction through all sorts of carnage yeah that is I don't think gonna change this idea of like shiny objects getting shinier is a pretty fascinating I haven't really thought about it like that but that's really a I think in the last year or two the frequency and the craziness in that world as is on a parabolic move upward so I think that that's why you see people that are educated investors they they put in you know a percentage a small percentage of their portfolio because my god like you know your heart's not gonna take that no I was I was listening so you were on you're on my first a million podcasts I was listening to I was listening to your episode to prep for this one but I was listening to just Sean who's doing another episode about how we woke up and he lost 500,000 dollars in stocks and in crypto and just he had like some some mental health lessons and some mental health learnings to how to get through that but the biggest issue with like losses like that when you invest is it ruins everything else you're working on right you could have a job you could have a business that you're running you could have investments that are doing fine and that as a human if you lose 500,000 dollars in one day everything else is going to shit yeah everything out doesn't like unless you're a very strong individual that can figure out how to get through that everything else goes to shit so he was just cautioning like okay it's fine to invest and it's fine to take losses but the losses are not always the financial ones that are are directly realized from the asset depreciation it's everything else in your life it's interesting it's a great point you're an NFTs I just I just realized because you're in you're in you know you create visual assets this is you're you're primed for NFTs yeah yeah yeah I've sold some NFTs it's a it's a crazy world out there man there's a lot of cool stuff happening in that world but it's also like mania it's total craziness the barrier to entry is so low and obviously the desire to win is so huge and the like the disproportionate the disproportionate exposure to like some people who did survive or people who did get it right is not providing your brain with an accurate picture of your your actual likelihood of survival or success do you think that do you think that there is some longevity in NFT markets or do you think that it's going to be a fad yeah I believe in them for sure I think it's like the utility that exists beneath you know the media hype cycle is significant and there's a lot of cool stuff happening but it is you know like anything these like speculative bubbles around them to begin with and then bear market two three years of building and then it comes back like a you know a much stronger and more refined version of itself but yeah honestly I've struggled to not be completely enamored by that technology because I think it's fascinating it is but even if you look through the the cycles of that of blockchain technology like even you had all these incredible applications that were supposed to change the world that were three years ago you know all these different types of like like smart contracts and things like that that how many of them some of them have come to fruition but how many of them have impacted your day to day how many of them have impacted the infrastructure that you that you I knew somebody that was trying to build out a project that was supposed to enable smart contracts for telecom billing to to to I guess sort of augment the level of transparency with telco billing and how charges are levied and whatnot just because obviously like that's everybody's issue right to get like a you know $500 cell phone bill they don't know what happened but like that that stuff is never going to what you're going to tell you're going to telcos like Verizon AT&T to restructure because like they're not going to do it you have to move mountains and I don't see a lot of that happening yet right here's more crypto native markets and there's a big enough market for you to for you to build and trade with people who have been in crypto for 10 years you can opt out of fiat entirely in a lot of ways like but to your point you try and bring some blockchain application to like entrenched fortune 500 company or like government funded utility forget it man that's an absolute like no that's the that's a goal that's the goal of adoption that is what you want to do but that's not I don't see it moving yet yeah I don't know how it plays out like long term I'm definitely bullish on it long term based on the applications I see in the small markets but yeah no one will I know about adoption of new technology in big companies can take a while if you work if you've I remember so I used to work for a telco like bell Canada which I'm from Toronto right so you know bell can it's like the biggest telco in Canada like similar to Verizon or AT&T or whatnot and I remember when I worked with them they had a they had an in-house ordering system that was built around it was like built out of MS DOS and it looked like an MS DOS program and that was like like you know MS DOS were like 80s and that was and we were using it like 10 years ago so it's slow it is it's definitely it's definitely slow have you have you had any big wins with NFTs I'm just curious now yeah yeah I'll send you a link to afterwards but yeah I made an NFT explaining NFTs so it was a really simple I think I saw that I saw that somewhere on socially I didn't know you sold that as an NFT okay I did make yeah inception NFT inception very cool very cool all right okay a couple more I wanted to ask you just two more things about you know as you built out visualized value you mentioned one point on I think it was actually oh no I think I can't remember which podcast it was you're speaking about leveraged income versus passive income and I thought that was an interesting point because people look at you and they say oh he makes money while he sleeps that's passive income but what is it really what is what is the ideal setup for somebody who wants to do their own thing to build courses to be an entrepreneur because I don't think it is pure passive no I mean nothing up until you have the level of capital where you can you know buy massive amounts of real estate for example passive income is not a you know a not a phenomenon that you have access to unless you have absurd amounts of capital and maybe there are exceptions to the rule I've met a lot of people and I don't know of any yet but the idea of an internet business is really about leveraged and the amplification of good judgment right so you build a product that has zero cost of replication to you so that could be a software product where you know you have lines of code where every time a new user signs up it creates an account for them this is like happening automatically obviously and all you can build information products content things that media things that nature where you produce something once and it can be displayed on a million screens at the same time anywhere in the world and that affords you leverage right so then your judgment becomes the thing that affects your income and for example you write a compelling piece of copy that introduces somebody to an education product if you post that piece of copy to an audience of 100 people and 2% of them buy that's you know let's say the cost the the product is a hundred dollars you make two hundred dollars on that day you grow your audience to a thousand people two percent convert you make two thousand dollars and then sew on and so forth and then you write better copy that percentage goes up so or you write a better line of code and the the software is more appealing to person X so leverage a leverage business is really the the disconnection from hours spent and money earned there's definitely you definitely spend time making better decisions that produce more income in the long run but it's it's way less the the the ironic thing is I think there's I think Bill Gates or somebody that ran a big technology company said this is like we hire lazy people because we want them to basically make themselves redundant right we want them to write code that puts them out of a job so they're not sitting around doing repetitive things that a computer can do every day they're not having the same conversation with someone every day like if you're a one of the actually I use an example of a graduate of build once cell twice is an oncologist and he you know has tons of patients he's a massively respected cancer doctor and now he's built this library of assets that explain in detail the mechanics of the disease so when someone comes into his office it's not him reading from a script like teaching somebody this thing it's a very like personalized let's talk about your specific situation and how you're going to deal with this and I have all of these like explanations that you can take home and watch with your family and really get your head around what's going on inside your body that's an example of media leverage in a in a profession which you'd never imagine could take advantage of something like that right and that very smart that maybe doesn't that maybe doesn't count as an internet business but it does increase the return on your time right it increases the number of people you can help and it increases the quality of the experience that you have with those people and obviously it's an incredibly traumatic thing for somebody to be going through so these principles don't just apply to income they apply to like the quality of the service you provide to and that's like the promise of of computing and the internet at large right it's like if you figure out how to help one person and you can codify that thing then really it just like your work becomes a search function for the people who need that thing or are interested in that thing I can mention earlier on build once tell twice the market for that is fairly large right it's people who have a skill that they are currently applying their time to get to market like a one-to-one relationship between their time and the delivery of their skill versus taking elements of that and either writing it in code or producing media that stops you from repeating yourself then that leverage starts to happen and if you pair that with distribution so if you grow a great network on a platform like Twitter or you build a YouTube audience or no even this is not exclusive to education and like these very like heady businesses either Jake Paul has some of the like most leverage in the world right this guy is getting paid a hundred million dollars to fight oh there's Logan Paul right but to fight Logan yeah well they both they both box facilities Logan got the big why does he have access to an opportunity like that because he has enormous audience and they can like sell paper views out and he can sell a million dollars of merch with a tweet he's come like he's so leveraged this ridiculous Kylie Jenner is another example like I think the team that ran that makeup thing that she was doing for probably is still doing was a dozen people but her brand just creates so much leverage this ridiculous like the name on the box gets printed and somebody else could be selling the exact same product but they don't have the leverage that she has yeah the internet is just a monster of a vehicle for disconnecting time spent from a result I have one more just one more question on that point because you tweeted something else out earlier today and it was along the lines of if no like if nobody copies you than what you're creating isn't worth a while or something like that or if you create good content then people should copy you or something along those lines whatever it was I can't remember the exact verbiage but how do you maintain that monopoly on your personal brand and for a period of time for forever right because somebody's gonna come around and copy I even I've seen people probably the graduates from your your program create similar looking assets right so how do you stay as as you know main visualized value besides the fact that you were first and somebody who didn't come from your program who wants to create similar assets they're probably not going to be respectful of you either so what's your what's your strategy yeah I mean they pop up all the time and beginning like honestly that was the one of the catalysts for building the course in the first place like if people are gonna copy this anyway or like the market is demonstrating a desire to produce similar things I'm gonna I'm gonna produce something that can allow me to capture value from that desire right the people that maybe want to do that but don't know where to start don't know what tools to use don't know how to think about it um it's again another like weird double edged sword of the internet like if you're onto something people are gonna come after you for it like there's um if you're not uh I don't imagine you've listened to this but there's this this nine and a half hour podcast with uh Michael sailor and Robert breed love on Bitcoin it's called what is money and in the last episode Michael sailor this guy's like a massive Bitcoin ball and MIT graduate he's like runs a technology company he says if you're in if you're 99.99% smarter than everybody in the world there are still 750 000 people smarter than you that want what you have that's just like such a mind blowing statistic to me that's the same your advantage in that situation is to be yourself right if you're not growing a if you're not trying to like out maybe these are interchangeable but there's like you either out innovate or you out individualize so you and I've started to I think do this over time is like I've lent way more into my personality over time like I started as this really specific like here's this thing I can do hire me to do it I'll get it done and then like I'll find someone else and that that really I think people maybe overshoot this sometimes where there's nothing wrong with having a business where you take on 10 clients a year and you get to pick from a huge pool of clients based on the very specific message you're putting out to market right the the desire to get completely divorced from time and income from day one is I don't know maybe some people are able to do it it's not how I did it and I'm not completely divorced either I'm leveraged but there's there's not a complete divorce but it comes from like really over time starting to like you can't really deny the thing that got you there in the first place right this constantly pursuing your curiosity and all the clichés about skating to where the puck is going and all of these things it's like the way I think about it specifically for an education business is there's always like you're kind of a visual would be appropriate here but you basically have the people you learn from and the people that you can teach and you're kind of sitting in the middle there so as you start to learn new things from new people or you start to go into these different areas of interest or industries or whatever it might be those learnings can like filter back to the people that are you know interested in pursuing some aspect of what you've already done so visualize value for example is like going from how to visualize how to visualize these ideas that might sit in the presentation of a Fortune 500 company to how do I better explain crypto project X right my personal interests start to filter into the stuff that I'm producing and then I get more specific and the people that reach out to me are more aligned with my interest long term and I think that's the that's the really nuanced thing about all of this is you can really get stuck in this generic trap for such a long time and you're like people end up commoditizing themselves because they're afraid of shutting themselves off from certain opportunity right that's where I was even at the beginning of visualized values like I would work with anybody that would pay me and it's only through like saying no and chopping off like huge chunks of what you did before can you like you have to sort of survive that dip right of saying I'm just gonna focus on this and as my focus changes so will the work I do or the products I build and we could go into a long and deep rabbit hole about this like the direction of the world but I think that that is a that is it feels to me like there's either going to be these like monolithic companies like you're either going to be an Amazon or you're going to be this very very specific autism like you have this very specific output like that's the general trend of technology right everything in the middle just gets destroyed not to be that brings you back to that quote about about you're either going to innovate or individualize yes and it's I would say that one seems drastically easier to do than the other indeed indeed and like to think about the scale at which there's a great there's a guy called Rohan Gilks has a great Twitter account tweets a lot about like you know more traditional businesses that are augmented by technology so he's built cleaning businesses he built landscaping businesses and just put like great technology on the front end of them and he had a quote a paragraph raised it but basically says if you're an employee of a company you're already an entrepreneur the only difference is you only have one customer so the idea that the idea that you'd exist outside of the same set of rules is kind of an illusion right the the the proof of work thing the ability to build things on the internet the ability to build a network that like has some antifragile properties where I know that even a year ago at this point when visualize value was maybe a couple thousand people there was enough work in that network there was enough goodwill and enough time spent and enough like competence demonstrated that I could live off the relationships that I'd I'd built in that at that stage in time and I think it's it's kind of chicken before the egg it's like you have to really you have to deny certain opportunities in the short term in order to like really go deep and specific over the long term and become that individual representative of the thing you do very hard to give a specific prescription but that's how I think about it the mindset the mindset makes sense and that's the difficult that's the that's the step that I find a lot of people have difficulty with because how many people get that literally the point in your life where you were when you transition into agency that's where everybody gets stuck and that's where most people turn into entrepreneurs and that's where most people find out that entrepreneurship is not great for is not what they want it and they're like okay well let's just go back and work I've done that I've done that myself I did agency work I tried to do some consulting fractional CXO stuff it's very difficult there is very difficult it is yeah I think yeah media and there's also this trap of sort of becoming this like entering these echo chambers becoming the same version of someone else doing a similar thing and that's like a human thing right the mimicry of everybody catches themselves doing it I do it it's uh you look at something it's like that's not really me I'm doing that because I saw it work for someone else and yeah I truly believe in this long term like the way things play long term is like you can have an incredible life working for you know Uber or whatever learn a skill that's like incredibly valuable to a massive tech business get a huge chunk of equity probably going to be making more than me in a few years based on the fact that Uber's taken over the world or you you pursue something that you're just irrationally passionate about and the internet affords you the ability to build a network of people that like would only ever hire you to do that thing and that's a really hard thing to do like it's not I like I would never say otherwise and I think it's irresponsible for people to say otherwise it's like a lot of these principles need time to marinate in your head too so some of the like build oneself twice for example you might take that course today and then maybe in 18 months you make a different decision because of it and some people might be at a stage where they take it and they go and they're like okay I know what to build now but other people will just pick up like four principles from it and we'll like negotiate for a different position at work or start to you know build a media composite has their job yeah it's not a one-size-fits-all prescription and that I would like condemn a lot of the approaches that are one-size-fits-all prescriptions because most of them are turning you into a commodity which long-term is a race to the bottom right if you're if you're not the only person that does what you do or at least a very specific strain of something then the market will come and get you man it's the internet is a crazy place it's very very very smart advice and I appreciate your word just because I think that a lot of people that try and make money online don't always people that teach it don't always have the best intentions so I think obviously a much a much different way that you're you're teaching it obviously but just you know if I would not want you to get grouped into the same categories many other people that try and help people break away from their jobs yeah I definitely that's a personal like it's a someone I take very seriously not like being grouped in with that because the barrier to entry to be a teacher on the internet is so low anybody could do it with an internet connection and everybody like we're seeing with these like crypto pump and dump things like you promise people the ability to make X then they make like emotional decisions and pursue those things irrational a lot of the time and there's way more nuance involved than that so yeah so it's a long fight to try and you know try and get out of that category I think I've been fortunate enough to not play in that world but it's it's hard to it's hard to convey the nuance at in the speed of the internet right and the way people like expect results to happen is honestly quite far from the most of the block and that's actually why that's why advice is actually most people that want to start their own business to to not because a lot of people just the expectations are just absolutely incorrect yeah so that's why it's like build build the brand while you're working for company maybe start a side hustle but don't quit your job see if it see if there's that inflection point that where you can start to move over but don't don't do anything irrational like like mostly again it's it's all comes back to the social media propagating the shiny objects syndrome this this larger than life you know the people that can live these lavish lifestyles because of their you know internet money type yeah yeah it's just it's just not good but anyway that's why I was I was happy to break down your process and your your course and your thought process because I know it's logical it's it's rational and and it's it's achievable to do things that like what you're doing as long as you as long as you understand what the expectations are you have you have rational expectations for the outcome yeah I didn't mention this in my story but I only started the eight I was running this ghost agency while I had a full-time job like at at no point did I say okay you know call my boss into a room say I quit I'm gonna go and start my own agency I already had another agency for all intents and purposes and contracts signed and all these different things before making the leap because yeah I agree it's it's a really it's a problematic narrative to to push because as the internet makes things you know it claims to make things easier also increases competition to like the nth degree it's yeah it's an interesting mix and you get different perspective at different scales and you start to understand how power laws work and network effects work and more the longer I spend at it the more I'm convinced that there is this happy middle ground of like just get really good at something and find 10 people that need you to do it for them and you could either do that on the side or you could build like a really solid business that way so one other point I'll yeah make is exposure to commercial environments where you see what people pay for things and what the relationship between you know price and value is is another huge advantage so another thing that I see like kids coming out of college and trying to start an agency business off the back it's like you don't even really know who you're competing with there and you you I don't think you see the the the specific problem you solve or the like how you're different from you know the traditional options so again all of these different experiences teach things that you could never like project out it's all hindsight so there's a I think it's a Steve Jobs quote or it's a version of inspired by he talks about all the different experiences he had through school like went to typography classes and then did computer science and like all these like mishmash things of his interests which culminated in a new version of a computer right the considered things that PCs and whatever else just didn't care about and the analogy or the metaphor is you collect the dots in real time then you connect the dots in hindsight so you do these things you like take risks you have new experiences you meet new people and then you know visualized value doesn't have a 10 year road map or anything like that it's like I'm expecting that I'll run into something in three months time that I'll be like okay pivot slight change of direction and you have like if you have that relationship with people at scale you really have this like liquidity to maneuver a little more to um but that's two years in right that's not on day one no exactly and actually that was my that was my uh sort of my last question that I wanted to to just ask you about for somebody who is a creator what is the end goal in your mind what's the what's the end result I think just the like it's like maintaining this the state that I'm in now like their optionality is great the like ability to meet people pursue interests like have conversations like this is all um a lot of it comes down to like surrendering to your curiosity after a certain amount of time and that to me is like you know that I've had offers to like raise venture money and build a like media beast machine I'm like I'm already like semi retired in a sense so why would I go and do that you know there's a great there's the uh you never know you never know what you're going to do in six months or a year from now depending on right yeah and like a lot of presents don't want to live that way and there are downsides to it there is a drawback to like a lack of predictability in some ways but I'll take that trade off for the like time freedom that provides it's the uh there's the I'd also say there's no predictability in in in what we consider to be predictable jobs anyways this is true to the last two years have taught us anything so sure that's just true um there's a great uh I'll send you a link to it it's like uh the fisherman and the venture capitalist if you heard of that story no no send it I don't know this uh if you have a time I can just quickly reiterate yeah do it so I think it's an American this is how it's told us an American guy is on holiday in Mexico and there's a fisherman on the beach in Mexico and he's uh he's got his catch he's got like three fish the American goes up to him he's like oh wow how long you've been out for he's like oh a couple hours got my three fish he's like oh okay why don't you if you were catching fish why didn't you stay out longer he's like I don't need any more fish he's like oh you know what you should do you should uh get more boats and then you should like hire a a bunch of fisherman and get a fleet out there and um you know then eventually you can get big enough what you can do an IPO and you can sell your business to and he's like why would I do that he's like oh you know so you can you know chill out with your family and like go and see your friends at night and he's like that's where I'm going right now that's I'm already doing that there's just this path you get caught up in right where you yeah you're swinging for this weird result and a lot of a lot of the time the like yeah you just get completely lost in this process with this arbitrary thing and you may have the majority of that already going for you so stumbling on something that you like to do every day and can keep you alive you know there's economically feasible again your point about trying stuff while you already have income in another world or you know you don't have to throw in all the bridges and starts you know swinging for the fences on day one there's a lot of optionality out there very good advice all right I'll do a couple I'll do a couple of rapid fire just to bring out some life lesson career insights that you've experienced over your career and then we'll tell people where to go find you if they haven't already seen you online okay what has been the biggest challenge in your career and how did you overcome it probably it definitely was when I was running an agency and the like accepting accepting all of these jobs that I knew I wasn't like 100% qualified to do I was just like it was really burning me out and like wrecking my relationships and stuff and then going like really leaning into saying no and like that's a really hard thing to learn for me like saying no to people is really hard because I always assume yes is you know the gateway to opportunity and to a certain extent it is but when you have enough proof that you don't need to say yes anymore stop saying yes that was the hardest thing I ever did but it took like it it was a rocket underneath the growth of the business and my personal life and everything and just even little things like you know I'd have friends that will say like oh can you get on the phone with me for two hours to do this thing I'm just like no bro I can't do that anymore I used to do it all the time I count over before I don't do it anymore and then you know three months later when people start to come to terms with that you have better relationships with them anyway so like saying no is hard but that's definitely been instrumental good advice um so this sort of segues into the next question um hopefully you can pull something different out what would be the what would be some advice you'd tell your younger self I think um there's a like I think about this a lot like trust your gut is perhaps the um yeah one thing that I in hindsight it hasn't steered me wrong right you think of the gut as this like emotional thing but I'm actually starting to think you know there are exceptions to this role at meme coins and things aside the idea that your gut is made up of like thousands and thousands and thousands of exposure of exposure to thousands and thousands of situations and um like the all the calls that you've made suddenly like when I end up like overthinking a decision like with regards to like staying in a job or uh you know switching um say a note to someone like almost always when I've questioned my initial instinct I've ended up in a in the wrong place so that like trust your gut trust the process the most cliche advice there is but like trusting the fact that your body is telling you something because it has way more experience than your conscious mind can even comprehend a lot of the time has not steered me wrong and I mean there's I think there's only so long you can go against your instinct right before you just well I think it would just break you down eventually yeah it would be it would not be difficult you're not nice to be around all of those things yeah um okay so one one person that had a major impact on your life and what did you learn from them so I'm gonna go I would say my wife but I'm gonna give a professional example uh my first boss in that small agency I mentioned uh he would definitely not remember this comment he made but there was a uh review of some work it was like one lunchtime meeting and I was maybe six months into the job and I came over with these printouts I was about to review this thing and I said hey I don't really know if this is good enough or right and he's like I'm gonna stop you there why are you showing it to me if it's not good enough I was like uh I don't I don't know he's like take it away like cancel the meeting like don't bring it to me if it's not good enough if you know you haven't taken it as far as you can take it I don't want to see it if you're not confident in it like even like opening the presentation of your work with that statement is make me think it's no good right so like you're not doing yourself any favors in any dimension with that so that to me has been like you know like I said he probably forgot that he even said that but I've thought about it every day probably since interesting interesting yeah no that's impactful too I guess because then it makes you positive well first of all two sort of two lessons to bring it out of that don't sell yourself short because then you're setting the stage for exactly you're imprinting on them whatever it is that you think your work is or isn't and that's not good because there's a chance it could be fine right secondly if your work isn't good then why are you delivering it that's not too smart very very smart thanks take away very you know it's funny how like you know you think back on like the people you've worked with and for and like some small off-the-cuff comment like totally changes your mindset and your outlook on life it's very interesting actually that's enough that's it even that's another lesson you have to watch what you say yeah because it can have a massive negative or positive impact on especially if you have leverage you can have a lot a hundred percent yeah that's a great point um and especially because the internet sort of disconnects you from the feeling of leverage too like it's really hard to comprehend 100,000 people reading something you write yeah it's really easier than the stadium yeah you would be like you know you'd pause for a second yeah exactly but no people just like firing out whatever you know brain fart they have yeah it's a powerful thing and pros and cons right there'll be people that are like I read this thing you wrote a year ago that you've forgotten about that had an instrumental impact on someone so I think if your intent is good great like that's what it all comes back to yeah and it but if you're if your intent isn't watch out because the internet's mean it's coming for you man yeah there's there's no hiding um okay uh what's one resource book podcast audible somebody should go check out uh I'm gonna do there's a book called psycho cybernetics guy called Maxwell Maltz you ever heard this book yeah yeah great book uh and then I'm gonna give one more but I was gonna give this first the how to get rich without getting lucky Navarra the tweet podcast thread or and the tweet thread yeah read it and I was gonna say the tweet thread yeah okay that was instrumental in my in you know I sort of found that and so many light bulbs went off and sent me in a different direction and that's another I think that's another lesson in just how rare it is to find um things that can drastically change the trajectory of your life like you know you could read a book but this is I think the the density of wisdom and that thing is all time great like the amount of people that have of uh yeah change the direction of their life for the better for reading that I think is is very high so that's great so that's that so you referenced the podcast I was just saying you go on twitter look at uh Navarra I'm pretty sure that's still his pinned yeah I'm pretty sure that's still his pinned tweet on his profile but I think there's a three hour podcast where it goes a little deeper so get that get that in your ears too yeah no good advice and then lastly um what is what is success mean to you I think like waking up looking forward to the day or going to bed and not like and um going to be an excited about tomorrow like I wish away the night's sleep and that's like you got everything if if you go to bed feeling that I think I love it um and then most importantly where do people uh find you connect with you email you reach out to you what's the best uh get me on twitter and you can find everything else through that so at jack butcher and then at visualize value and yeah you'll find me there and if you got questions just uh my DMs are open hit me all right awesome there that's all I got that was awesome