Peter Hopwood, Speaking Trainer, TedX Coach | How to Deliver a Story on a TedX Stage

Welcome to success story the most useful podcast in the world. I'm your host Scott D. Clary the success story podcast is part of the HubSpot podcast network. The HubSpot podcast network has other great podcasts you should go check out like being boss hosted by Emily Thompson. Now with the holidays just around the corner you're probably thinking what's next for you in the new year what other shows are you going to listen to to level yourself up well on the success story podcast interview a lot of entrepreneurs and I usually dive deep into the creative aspects of building a business so if you are creative a creative business owner or you're thinking about eventually becoming one which at some point everybody kind of has to be because you have to be a little bit creative in how you build a business how you market a business now you sell your product all that does require some creativity but also for people that are hyper focused on the creative niche you may be interested in being boss hosted by Emily Thompson being boss is an exploration of not only what it means but what it takes to be a boss as a creative business owner. You are into some of the following topics you're going to love this show project management and building systems for creatives freelancers or side hustlers opening a retail store rituals that inspire and evoke creativity and taking time off as a business owner to focus on yourself your creativity and up skilling you need to listen to being boss they cover all these topics and more you can listen to being boss on any of your favorite podcasting platforms or at HubSpot.com slash podcast network. Just take a second and thank the sponsor of today's episode long shot leaders. It's a podcast that reached out to me that I just started listening to because I absolutely love them. It's hosted by my good friend Michael Stein. It's edgy. It's different. He interviews absolutely everyone under the sun and speaks through their journey. Unpacks the biggest obstacles they've had to overcome to find success in whatever it is they've done in their life. So he interviews academy award winners Xcons Holocaust survivors sports heroes you name it he interviews them and he himself also has a really interesting background so Michael Stein's a host he's an entrepreneur writer actor filmmaker he's also a standup comedian. So he kind of puts that all into the interview and then he gets into the how the why the secrets of why people do what they do it's really cool I actually love the show he reached out to sponsor but I don't take any sponsorship special podcasts unless I actually like them listen to myself so I listen to it highly recommend you check it out that is long shot leaders with Michael Stein. Today my guest is Peter hop what he is a global speaking coach virtual speaking specialist and Ted X coach he teaches people how to define craft and tell clearer stories with stronger impact he helps people bring more value clarity and engagement to their ideas he helps executives entrepreneurs teams and everyone in between to develop their speaking style in front of a crowd in a virtual setting to sell a product gain investment persuade and deliver an impactful message today we're going to speak about various speaking techniques persuasion techniques that can help you communicate better and get what you want. Some of the things that we spoke about how to stand out basic mistakes that people make when pitching why the first 60 seconds is key one of the worst pitches he's ever heard getting your nerves under control thinking about your style and your tone owning the pause being different telling stories and once you've mastered all of that how do you level yourself up and get on a Ted X stage and he's going to give you some tips so that you can become an incredible in person or virtual. We'll speak so let's jump right into it. This is Peter hopwood global speaking expert virtual speaking expert and Ted X coach. Yeah listen I mean I I want to actually walk you through because it would take far too long to walk it so what we'll do we'll kind of run at a fast pace and and hopefully get here where we are right now pretty soon so it goes back to when you know I was at art college I feel like I was going to finish my studies and then I you know simply wanted to to to work abroad I went to Paris work for Disney work for different communications companies lived in Spain lived in Hungary working for different jobs but most of the time most of the time presenting a lot of it was actually presenting so sharing the same messages over and over again to get people to to listen to you and to get people to well essentially buy from you trust you and buy from you so I I realize quickly early on that that the messages I'm sharing and how I'm feeling and the way I say something and the way I move and the tone of my voice so all these different elements they make a difference they make a difference in how people feel about you in how people you know start to trust you and their perception of you. So I started to within start to I had to sometimes it worked really well sometimes it didn't work well at all so looking at ways to really adjust the ways I the way I was sharing my presentations really sort of fascinated me and and I you know it gave me this kind of I had a talent for it already but it gave me more confidence to to get better outcomes by changing small things small behaviors thinking more about the words I was sharing and and the meaning of those words and how I share those share those words as well so all that comes together and fast forward to today where I help people to do exactly the same thing so helping people to to find their story to fight all stories it depends helping people to grab attention helping people to put those stories together and deliver them in the right way to whatever audience they have so that may mean on a stage a CEO has to deliver a key note at a conference or it may mean a team team leader needs to have more confidence and share their messages with their team or as you mentioned before it might be somebody who's you know gearing up for their moments their real moment on a TEDx stage and making sure they're 15 minutes or so of of content that that story is as sharp and as strong as possible so doing it actually not somebody who's just kind of thought about it and and and sharing sharing ideas to help people in a way that you know I haven't done it before. I've had a long career of of presenting let's say of of of doing this to help people do exactly the same so when people come to you what is the the type of person that usually starts to work with you do people come to you earlier or is it a wide range people have a specific event I'm just trying to understand what that looks like. Yeah so I mean there's all different types of people for different outcomes so if it is let's say a TEDx speaker or somebody who's already been accepted as a TEDx speaker for TEDx event they've got what they they have their their idea they have what they want to share but they just need a little bit more they want to have it more polished they want to make sure their messages are really stronger and they want to deliver it in the right way so often they come to me and and say listen Peter I need you to. To shape this and tell give me your opinion and and I want to have my 50 minutes when it finally gets on YouTube I want to get as many likes and hits as I can and and help help me in my career so so that might be one thing another another person might come to me and say listen I have a team of people I'm a team leader I have a team of people some are really good at sharing their messages communicating what they do and and and connecting with with potential clients. Some are not so great so I would like you to come in and help us all bring up our our confidence bring build up how we share our messages and make sure we're all of us as I say getting closer to the outcomes that we want in terms of more business so it's a wide range of people some people are very confident and they just need more help in terms of the content and really really hitting those the emotional side let's say of their audience or their key messages have to be stronger and sharper and more concise or it might be somebody that hasn't had much experience in front of a crowd and it's kind of like playing China Juggle so many things at the same time and then moving forward for that final performance that let's say all that final talk in front of in front of a crowd so it's a whole all shapes and sizes of different levels different outcomes so so really at the beginning it's for it's a question of me really sitting down and listening listening to how they see themselves listening to what they want listening to how the perception or the perception they think others have of them how that plays into everything so at the beginning it's all about listening listening to them and then finding out really what it is that's going to help them because something for one person may not be the right thing for someone else so so yeah it's a it's an intriguing interesting beginning of of a of a coaching relationship so and and I think that there's sort of two things that we can that will hopefully will touch on a little bit of both I think that there's probably some best practices that you teach over to literally everybody who comes to you I'm sure that there's different various levels but I'm sure there's like some some main key points that for somebody who's speaking they should definitely take away and then I want to also go into all the words you're doing now with like the virtual stuff because some of those key points probably translate but some of them probably don't as well so so let's you know this is this is your domain so I'm just going to ask you when when somebody wants to be a better speaker what are what are the main things that somebody has to be cognizant of when they're going on stage yeah okay so so I mean the first thing I would ask them I would say I would ask them for the first thing is you know why do you want to do this you know what what's your what's the purpose of this what do you want to achieve what do you want people to feel what do you want people to think after you finished what do you want them how do you want them to change their perception of your messages what are your key messages and through the answers that gives me a lot of a lot of data and a lot of information and then based on that as I say I would then try to create the right path for them to go forward but but generally a lot of people for a lot of people the idea of awareness the idea of being aware of of how they share their messages is is number one right so regardless of whether they're really good already or maybe you need a lot of help and a lot of support awareness being aware whether we're great or not is is a really important thing so being aware of how we move being aware of how people see you right so one of the first things is is working on how calm they are how in control they are because when we see somebody or hear somebody who's actually in control when I say in control not control in but just in control of how they share their messages in control of their body in control of the anxiety that all of us have we all have it is just that some of us can control it better some of us not so helping them to look at themselves and see how they're moving see how they how they move when they're on camera listen to themselves getting them to really understand their voice how their voice sounds the perception of their voice different ways to shape your voice to create again create a better outcome for example fast if we speak fast often when we speak fast what happens is the tone goes high and if it is slightly higher tone what happens is the credibility goes down but as soon as we slow down let's say slowing down a voice just right now I'm just slowing down my voice naturally getting really really slow and what happens is people will hear straight away and you can as well my tone is lower and as soon as I have a tone lower tone already it's slightly more appealing so it's easier for us to listen to it's not annoying and it's not distracting it's more appealing and in business as we know it having a slightly lower tone often not always but often tends to create this notion of more credibility so essentially looking at ourselves hearing ourselves and being aware of the messages and signals we're sharing so any great speaker number one is a great listener listening to others and listening to their audience and listening to themselves listening to what the signals they're sharing and how they can understand them in their heads as well so again a good speaker someone who listens and somebody who is aware really aware of what's going on around them really aware of the signals they're sharing when they're on stage when they're speaking even when they're not speaking the signals they're sharing the nonverbals the facial expressions the micro expressions the voice how how we can often we can usually tell so much from a voice we can tell their state from a voice if somebody's nervous we can hear it if somebody feels good and excited we can often hear it if somebody feels curious we can hear it all these kind of adjectives that describe different emotions we can hear that we can hear that we can hear the state we can hear somebody smile can't we can hear somebody smile through if we listen to a podcast if we're listening to this and people aren't looking at the video let's say they can hear how I'm feeling hopefully and they can hear your state as well how you're feeling so a lot of this is about awareness and we kind of kick off with that we kick off with how being aware is so important and the closer we get to all the more we do that and as we go through the coaching as we go through the training questioning how we how we share those signals is always a good thing you're out ways of changing your behaviors to get closer to how somebody somebody's perception of you closer to the to the outcome you want from somebody else it doesn't this isn't about changing or manipulating other people or to persuade other people to do what you want or to see you how you want this is just sharing signals kind of universal signals that most of us can can see and feel and and translate into emotions that most people can feel right so yeah it's a lot of the beginning is about awareness I think that you made a very good point you just you just wrapped it up nicely this is not about altering your awareness this is more about coming to terms and being self aware of actually how you come across which I now that you actually say that I'm sure and you tell me your experience that I'm sure that most people that go on stage that haven't spoken to you before or other you know presentation coaches they just go and they assume that they come across one way and they just project everything out into the audience with really no awareness whatsoever of how they're actually coming across I'm assuming that that's a very common issue more more than in you know sometimes like I when I watch you want to watch these shows back you used to you see yourself in a different light than when you first actually were in the moment and you don't you don't get that unless I guess you have that self awareness. Scott you've you've hit it on the head there so it's so every you know I mean you've got you've got a real you you actually you actually have a real benefit you you've got you have a real benefit because you can look back and listen to every single episode you can listen to every word and you're you're probably doing the editing anyway so listening to that and seeing that and and being aware of how you sound and at first I know a lot of people because they haven't listened to themselves before or haven't even seen themselves on camera before or on a stage before so that a lot of people feel kind of as a deep as default you know I don't like myself I don't like my voice but you know if if once you start to really dissect and evaluate and and critique yourself that's a really good way of moving forward so all these you know all the events and the shows and as an MC all the different stages I've been on before I always look at the video afterwards I always look at the stream I always look at try to you know get a good good view of of what people saw when they were in front of me you know in the audience or through the lens on a virtual event because that helps me that really helps me picture how I'm going to next share share my messages so every time so every time I go on to a stage on to a physical stage now I I in my head in my there's a picture in my head somewhere that shows me what I looked like and what I sounded like and how I moved previously at a good conference at a good event right so I remember that and I kind of convinced myself I remind myself you know I've done that before and I've done it quite well and it worked and so that's a that's a good confidence booster as well if we take it to now online we are always on zoom we are most of us not maybe zoom but we're always in virtual exchanges constantly we can always look back we can record ourselves or we can always look back at something that shows us what people see so right now I you know this is being recorded you can look back at yourself clearly and see exactly what or the closest you can get to what other people in the world see which is great because you know people can see exactly how I how I move people can see that I can see it as well I can see where I'm looking at the camera I can see my background which I know other people will see so so understanding that and and and seeing this although for some it might feel strange it's always good to look back at your performances to to critique yourself and say to yourself look this is something I could do better I can do better on that I don't know why I said that I shouldn't have said that I'll say something else differently or you might hear something that was a real cracker and I'm sure you do as well you hear you hear things that that just came out at the moment and it sounded great and I'm sure you're thinking well I'll use that again sometime or I use that technique again or when I hear something similar I'll try to sort of replicate that in some way as well so if we didn't do this if we didn't do any of this we would just be kind of shooting in the dark and just just sort of believing things in our head that we you know we a lot of speakers do that they go on stage they think they're great and they do things well some things are good and some things are not so great but no one is that no one you know no one's ever told them that's not great or or they haven't maybe looked at themselves or listen to themselves enough you know so self awareness looking back at yourself getting feedback from other people as well as good but I think that I think the strongest one is actually you looking at yourself because we're we're our worst not the worst we're our worst people to critique ourselves but also we're the best people to critique ourselves yeah I think I love that I love that I do I want to I want to pick up on some on some ideas and thoughts for bringing this virtual but I have one more one more just generic speaker questions I know that it's something that everybody who is not comfortable or confident on stage deals with you mentioned confidence self awareness I heard you know you can hear it in your voice when you slow things down you focus on like pauses and to emphasize certain points and whatnot and that that's fine but nerves that's one thing that is difficult for people to get over for almost anybody who is uncomfortable on stage do you have advice for that I just want to take a second and thank the sponsor of today's episode feedback loop now if you're a product person entrepreneur startup guy like me you have at some point in your career try to take a product to market you've tried to come up with a new idea and it's fell flat it's ultimately failed 85 to 90% of all new products of all new startup ideas fail why is this basically it is really hard really expensive and really time consuming to validate product market fit with your potential consumers or customers old style market 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feature leave no stone unturned you will see exactly how effective Shopify can be for starting scaling or growing your business I'll tell you straight out now that it doesn't happen overnight and listening to this won't change pretty much change much now but over time and working on it and realizing that it's not going to go away but what you can do you can you can reduce you can control yourself better and you can control those nerves in a better way and then sort of use them to your advantage turning them more into excitement and letting letting your body and mind feel that anxiety and then remind yourself that it's good it's good to be nervous it's good to be a little bit tingly it's good to like it's good to worry a little bit because if you worry you know it's a reminder that you want to do well you know on the other side of the coin somebody who doesn't worry who doesn't you know it's oh it's going to be fine I'm going to be grades it's going to be all good yeah they're not thinking they're not thinking too much about the real value they want to share yeah so yeah anxiety comes in all shapes and sizes and hits us in all different ways as well just a few phrases I want you to remember and listen is to remember perhaps just remember your your your audience they don't really don't really care about you and they only really care about why they're there and the time they're giving you right so right now this conversation right now you know nobody owes us a thing nobody owes us their time to listen to to us to chat there's many hundreds of millions of things they could be doing so the people that are listening to this wherever you are thank you for listening but what you want you're here for pretty much you know one thing or a couple of things you're looking for value you want some ideas you've looked at the title you're you may be a follower of Scott and you've seen what he does and and and you've listened to other podcasts you know the kind of flavor of the things that he shares and his guests and so you're you're you're curious and you're here to sort of hopefully you'll get something from this yeah so I as a as a as a guest I have to give you I have to make sure that in this conversation I'm going to give value I'm going to give my audience or the audience that's in front of me or listening to me something they they they need something they want something they will find valuable something that's going to help them something that's going to be informative something that's going to maybe make them smile as well perhaps so they don't really care about me pizza hotwood who cares you know I'm just nobody cares really nobody cares about me or you Scott really and what they care about is that what they care about is the is the content is what they're going to get from this what they what they walk away with so having always remembering that you you know you have to give value and thinking about the value and if you think more about you focus more on the value of what you're going to share that takes your focus on you and how you worry about other people's perception of you it starts to go away slightly so instead of you thinking about how you look and you know am I going to look good am I going to look okay in this shirt or you know does not for women perhaps I've heard this many times does my bottom look big you know nobody really cares nobody's really looking at your bottom you know they're what they're thinking about is you know am I going to am I wasting my time unfortunately an skeptical sense am I wasting my time listening to this person and my job is to make sure that you're not going to waste your time so I want you to this this this this time that we have together right now you know I hope you walk away with something that will help you so having that at the back of your mind always is a good thing right nobody cares right nobody owes you a thing so you have to gain people's attention you have to gain their respect nobody owes you their respect either you know it's funny thing strange thing nobody nobody has the right to like you so nobody needs to if somebody critiques me or you or this show or this episode and says it's the worst episode they've ever heard ever heard on as a podcast they have the right to say that and accepting that and accepting that not everybody will like you not everybody will find value in what you do not everybody will want to work with you not everybody will think you're you know not everybody will think I'm a great speaker coach and that's okay to understanding that and making sure that you know as a speaker not everybody will you know stand up and and give you a big round not everybody will find it lots of value some people will some people won't hopefully the majority will because that's what you're aiming for the majority will will think yeah actually this is this is this was valuable I got something from that I got at least one good golden nugget perhaps right so having that in your mind as well another thing quickly before we move on again I mentioned before about the calmness being calm feeling calm helps us think better and if we think better we can think more logically so when we so if I turn it the other side when we get nervous and anxiety rises basically our body there are sort of messages through our brain hits different parts of our body and we start to to kind of lose it right we kind of lose our way of thinking we kind of think you know everybody's looking at us and we're going to look like a fool and we're going to you know feeling nervous and a heartbeat is raising and on our movement often in two ways when we're nervous two main ways come through what in terms of what people see and what people hear the two ways are our voice that they can hear our voice starts to get croaky they can hear we're nervous they can hear how we're feeling right and it gets drier perhaps where it gets oh it speeds up often it's saying and the tone is higher right and the other way is our movement it's not to move around so if I was like no if I was really nervous with you right now Scott as we started I would probably although I am kind of moving around different kind of moving around my body my whole body I would I would kind of yeah I would I would kind of be moving around and and we can spot that straight away I can spot that straight away yeah and often we most of us can as well we can we we're very good at humans are very good at spotting how people feel even without even thinking about it right so how we move and how we sound so so really trying to practice being calm is a really good way to to be more in control especially when when it's tough especially when we're putting situations where we know we're going to feel you know no we're going to start feeling anxiety we're going into an interview for example we know that the anxiety is going to rise so practicing before you go in you know practicing how you're going to feel before you actually walk into the room before walking on stage really getting calm really work on your breathing working on on the air that's coming in your body which will calm yourself down bang messages to your brain and that calms your brain down and when you're so when your body is calm you kind of convince yourself that you are calm and then your sound calm and you'll be more in control so a lot of it is about again being in control and and sharing the signals of being in control even though maybe you're not in control so you can start by sort of mimicking those getting your body to mimic or to replicate a body which is calm yeah if you start to do that you start to do that you and practice that you will start to be more in control it takes time it doesn't it won't happen overnight but you could the more you do it I mean I'm again I you know through my whole career so I've started on very nose at the beginning first event I look back at my first events on big stages but I can I can hear straight away how nervous I was and my movement and the way I was leaning forward or like moving across side to side but now it's now it's now it's now it's one of those things that's kind of you know it's an instinct I go out there and I know I have to feel calm because if I feel calm you as an audience you're going to feel the same you're going to feel exactly how I feel I create that emotional temperature so if I come out feeling kind of you know high anxiety not in control of how I'm moving starting to look like a mess you as an audience member your credibility goes right down in me in the event in the event organizer as well because they're the people that hired me in the the speakers that kind of come on stage after me you know so if the event the event host is a really important role if you if you if you get it right and he's kind of controlling or she's controlling that that emotional temperature which can change at different parts then then it's a good way to a good way of of creating a good good event but going back to your original question bringing down those nerves yeah different ways of thinking mindset body being calm and just remembering that um that you are dictating the energy you dictate the energy everybody's looking at you at one for one for for that moment you want you can create the energy in that room it's the same on virtual we'll talk about that another time a little bit later but yeah creating creating that emotional temperature so let's you can only do it by the way you know you are dropping a lot of of of nuggets so I hope that people actually do I hope this is is one of the one of the good ones yeah there's a lot of flying nuggets the nuggets are flying in and out no I think I think I think they are this is a this is all very good advice I love the way that you're a lot of what you teach it's from what I'm gaining in just a very short time um you're you're changing mindsets around speaking you're changing mindsets around perception awareness what the audience sees what you portray it's getting out of your own head or getting rid of preconceived notions and that's it seems to be half the battle with almost everything to do with speaking as that makes sense it's logical questions about virtual so we have we have this framework for what good speaking is what good presentation is cadence now world goes to shit everything's virtual everybody's you know falling asleep on zoom meetings so well even even your career like what so what did you do what did you do when when everything yeah no I yeah no I I um I look back and think I wasted so much time because you know basically I can fly anymore no more events no more coaching which you know 90% of what I was doing was was face to face and that's that work well for me and that's the way I kind of that's the way I roll that's the way I work and and my clients like that way and and and so I went with that way all the time and then suddenly bang stopped and I kind of regrettably I look back and I think I was just kind of waiting around waiting hopefully waiting for this kind of thing to sort of you know go away yeah but it didn't and it hasn't so it wasn't until you know quite a few months later I really started to think about okay how we how we share our messages in person we have to think about how we share our messages through a screen and there must be better ways of doing it because we're losing so much when we look at a screen we it's only 2d when we're naturally in front of somebody it's 3d and we can pick up all these little notions notions of of how somebody's moving when we see them house the space around them how they take up that space which is again sharing signals even the the older not the older just just the smell the perfume or the the smells or the the breathing you can see how they're breathing and so all these subtle small little signals that we get and that we've learned to understand as humans throughout our lives suddenly we're dealing with a with a screen we're dealing with a 2d it's 2d it's like you're flat everybody's flat now right so we have to kind of create and in this this trust and this relationship that we're always trying to build because that's what we're doing constantly in business we're trying to create these relationships we're trying to create a a connection right so we can do that in the real world it's quite easy to do that to start to do that right because we've done it before many many times and we we know how it how things work and we know that we have to start to get to know somebody but on on in 2d we need to think about ways of doing the same thing and getting people to trust us quicker getting people to listen to us getting people to feel comfortable with us and so when they're in that when they're there at that stage then it's as we know it's easier for us to do business with somebody that that likes us that trusts us that that feels good about us so we have to kind of create those signals share those signals a set of behaviors that help the the listener on the other side of the camera where you are through the screen to to grab all those signals right so literally I I I did a lot of research and I looked at I looked at basically what essentially what I was doing what we were how I was coaching in person on all those things all those elements and are they the same or how are they different here one of the main things here that's different that doesn't really come into in person in person speaking is time right online time today and you you throw in a pandemic as well with with everything that's going on in terms of where we work where we live where we you know a home office and and the way people are sharing their time now time is so valuable online time is so more valuable online than it is in the real world in the real world time is important naturally but when we're online when we're when we're in a meeting or when we're in on a webinar or when we're having an intro call this time that we have with each other we want to make it count and we have to value people's time so what does that mean that's essentially translates into the messages we share have to be more concise the messages we we we share through the screen what we say what we how we how we talk to through the camera to the other person on the other side has to be more concerned we can't waffle because people don't have the time anymore we go through so many Zoom calls and we hear so much waffle and so many things that are relevant you know we we want to be using that time for something else right so we have to respect that so all our messages have to be shorter clearer sharper we have to understand at the beginning why we're there why we are on that call or why we're on that webinar or why we're listening to or watching a podcast like this for example okay so bringing it really really bringing it down our stories the way we share stories that's changed because we have to create many stories now the stories we we could share in person they can be longer because on a stage or in front of an audience everybody's kind of looking at you facing you and although they may drift off now and again they're still there physically they're still there and mentally most of the time they're still there here we haven't sometimes we have no idea where people are they might be looking at the screen or maybe even not looking at the screen most of the time they don't all the cameras might be off so we have no idea so our stories let's say have to be mini stories small and anecdotes small getting to the point quicker getting to the if it's a joke if it was if it's like jokes right we have to get to the point quicker get to the punchline quicker right so so time is a really important thing here again when we talk about the different elements of public speaking and to be you know to be a good presenter a good speaker we've talked about about it already voice gestures movement calm here online the two things certainly for me that are really important and helping clients to really be aware of this really is beneficial online and that's number one the voice because that is the biggest influence in terms of shaping our perception of somebody our voice is so powerful more than what we look like more than how we move sometimes even more than the content right so it's so how how we sound and how how we make the other person feel a lot of that here is certainly in business in sales let's say let's take a typical sales scenario what a buyer wants what a buyer really wants online more than anything else is that me as the person potentially selling something a service or product that I am really aware of of of of you as the buyer your concerns your your wants your needs and exploring that journey yeah once you start to feel that you're gonna you're with me together we're gonna explore that journey together but I have to give you the signals that I'm exploring that with you so I have to make I may lean forward slightly or in my voice you might hear me feel more curious about what you think so tell me more about about how this relates to you I'm more I'm interested in what you're doing yeah so so if I'm showing curiosity online you're more likely it's a higher increase that you're gonna feel like you want to go on this journey with me but if I don't show you that or if I don't make you feel like I'm curious and I you know I'm taking a clear interest in your wants your needs your your your concerns about this this product or service it's gonna quickly start to disintegrate and you might think that's something that in in the sales process anyway that's something we should be thinking about and it is but the strange thing is online this is something that is so so much much more powerful and it means so much more right so as a seller for me if I was to ask like professional salespeople or if I was to ask you right now I'll ask you now Scott right so for you online what's the biggest challenge you're facing from what when you when you look through the screen when you're looking at the you know people in front of you potential buyers or potential clients for example what's the biggest challenge that that you face in terms of in terms of presentation and speaking or in just in general in terms of like you want to let's say you're you're you're about your you've got a product or service and you want to you want to intro call and you have in a chat what's the biggest challenge yeah I would say I would say on that call I just want to take a second and think compiler for supporting this episode it is a brand new original podcast by Red Hat they speak about all things tech big small strange if it's tech they're covering it it's brought to you by the same makers of command lines heroes Angela Andrews and Brent Semeno let's face the technology can be big bold strange weird confusing the goal of this show is to make it as simple digestible understandable as possible they do this by interviewing the people that know it best on the show you hear a chorus of diverse opinions on tech tech topics from people behind the code here's a few of the topics that they speak about obviously many more but if some of these resonate with you you're going to love the show what is technical debt what are technical managers actually hiring for do you have to actually know how to code to get started in open source they're inaugural episode it just fits exactly in line with their theme they speak about should managers know how to code when they're managing an engineering or technical or development team I checked out the should managers code episode a lot of great technical learnings a lot of great business and leadership learnings so it does a bit of both it speaks about some very technical and engineering and developer focus problems but it also combines it with business problems that you're going to have to solve as a leader as a developer as somebody that is working with and on technical products so if you want to go listen to compiler it dropped last August so you'll have a few episodes to listen to you can listen to it on Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts I'll also make sure to leave a link in the show notes you can check it out there as well again thanks to compiler for supporting this podcast let's get right back to the show I just want to take a second and thank the sponsor of today's episode HubSpot now this time of year is all about change whether your teams your systems or your q4 to q1 shifts a CRM platform is a critical tool keeping your business connected throughout all of that change and HubSpot it's constantly working to make its platform more connected than ever before to help you with that change with brand new features get into details about what makes your customers tick with custom behavioral events track site behavior and understand your customers buying habits all within the HubSpot platform this is built in intent data right into HubSpot and if you're looking to find more ways to keep your data clean and have a centralized system the all new operations hub enterprise gives you the ability to curate data sets for all users meaning even faster and more consistent reporting learn more about how a HubSpot CRM platform can connect your business at HubSpot.com you mentioned it at one point say we're selling to multiple individuals some of them have their video on some of them don't some of them show interest some of them you can I can't always see like I want to look at the camera right here to make sure that I look like I'm looking at you but I'm not actually looking at you because I'm looking at the camera so I can't actually if I want to present best I'm looking at the camera that's fine but then that means I can't actually read your face when I'm telling you the information in real time so that's an issue then then compounded on that not everybody has their camera on so maybe you have a team of three or four people that are receiving the information two people have usually you know it's funny sometimes it's the most junior eager people to have the camera on but the people that have like done this for the past 30 years they don't have their camera on they don't care their microphones muted half the time you can't hear they're saying anything maybe they you know maybe they forgot that their microphone was muted so it's all these different technical like technical issues compounded with communication issues yeah so what all these things essentially if you put them all together they will kind of under very similar umbrella yeah that umbrella or not for not you not being able to see or feel how they feel right exactly and that's really tough isn't it it's like you as as you can't engage yeah yeah really difficult to gauge and you know and essentially if they're not showing you this if they don't show you signals that could come under different things like they don't have the camera on or they are not moving or their eyebrows are not going up when you say a certain word or certain phrase right or there's they don't in their face there's no emotion some people just you know I mean yeah I mean a freeze a frozen screen of their face sometimes is actually even more animated than their real face so yeah I'm sure there are so for you as the the seller as the person sharing your services or products to a potential client that that's not going to change that's not going to change in the in the sense of they may not give you more signals the only thing you can do is really think about your signals on or what you're sharing because if you can through your signals help the other person feel how you not want them to feel but they're feeling more towards the outcome that you that you that you want then you you can get closer to the outcome right so regardless of let's say you let's say we're talking now and and you just you know you're just like looking down the screen and you know a blank face and everything I say no reaction whatsoever and you know I could I could take this in two ways I could I could take this as like oh he doesn't really give a monkeys about what I'm saying and he doesn't care and I can't I can't gauge this and he's not interested so let's just forget this right I could feel that way or I could start to to think and start to share behaviors that will start to hopefully make you feel that you're listening right because not everybody shows they listen but they listen not everybody shows their talent at work in the ways that other people show their talent but they are talented not everybody shows their expertise because they're not so you know they may not be somebody who's extroverted and says a lot of things that doesn't mean they know a lot of thing right so so so as the person sharing we can try to make people feel like make closer to the way we want them to feel right so you can do that through the eye contact and through my voice and and and and giving you time to say things and listening to really listening to you and you know not always take it's not always about me looking at you and taking your body language and micro expressions and the way you're moving and sounding and and taking those signals because they could be different signals they could mean different things get it tired so being almost like being open being open yeah this this kind of exchange being open and not judging those not maybe judging those signals straight away sort of suspending your judgment a little bit before you make a decision about how some of them perhaps feels about you or your product or service very smart very very smart I love another mindset shift which is very important um one thing that uh you you've spoken about before uh we didn't we touched on it and danced around it but didn't really dive into it specifically uh how being different is good for presentation that's fine but in the world of zoom and virtual being different is how do we achieve that because we have all these different tools we want to engage people we want to maybe suspend judgment yeah focus on our voice and how do we how do we be different yeah good really good question I think the the first thing that comes to mind for me certainly is that um we have to all our signals we have to amplify them right so however we are in the real world we need to amplify them slightly more here so right now you can see just by looking now at the screen at myself my hand is here other hand is here because it's in in this frame I can see I'm really aware of this this sort of square frame that I'm in right now and my hands are up here they're like they're sort of like here where you know level with my chin and sort of down here and I'm sort of playing in this area and I'm really happy and comfortable with that area but it's deliberate if I was talking talking to you in the real world having a coffee I would not have my hands up here I'd be like ridiculous look at weirdo what the hell is he doing so but I can do it here because it lets you see my hands it lets you see what I'm doing on my hands and I articulate better when I use my hands and it just gives you this hopefully maybe it doesn't but I think it does hopefully it gives you this impression you listen more to what I have to say and certain keywords and certain things I'm saying in certain phrases you remember more because I'm using these slight gestures as well my background what you see behind me here's one thing to remember we can we can control this completely if we're meeting somebody at their office or we're at a conference and we're on a stage all these environments are not our environment environments we don't choose these it's not ours but here we can choose it we're fully in control and we can feel comfortable right this is my spot often we have our own zoom spot don't we own virtual exchange spot where we do what I call I imagine that's where you do well I know it is where you pretty much do all most of your podcasts perhaps your virtually exchanges as well so we feel really comfortable right so we can we're actually in our own comfort zone and that's a good thing so feeling comfortable in our own environment is a good thing and it lets people in kind of you're letting I'm letting you into my little area this is mine and it's it's it's a very it's where I live and you're in it now and I guess you know that's where you were perhaps you live there as well I do I'm kind of being over there yeah great wonderful um so we're kind of like there's an intimate part of us that we've both shared already even before we begin now if we have a if we had a background a like a fake background or a digital background that doesn't always give us this what we have now right so just think about how to make connections and how to stand out what we wear what we wear can sometimes be something that people remember I look I'm looking at you now and to your right to your left but to my right books on the shelf yeah a nice bookshelf you've got the the blue lights probably down below on the ground that's beaming up perhaps yeah that right yeah and there's nice light coming on your on your eyes on your face I can see you I can see all your expressions you look great and I so I can see all your expressions there's no distraction there's no kind of like something that's stopping me your voice you're you have an external camera I'm sorry an external microphone I'm sure yeah right you're using whatever you're using it's good quality so good quality sound is always something that makes people feel it's more appealing like I said before when it goes lower a lower tone it's more appealing so quality sound is appealing and not distracting and as we go through this whole this whole pandemic and this this this journey's COVID journey together and as the months and even perhaps years go on we expect better quality sound in our exchanges don't we and we expect better quality visuals in our exchanges when it all started last year we kind of okay we're kind of accepting that okay maybe the camera's not right or the lighting's not great and and the sound's not good but really a year and a half on we've had enough time to to to really think about how we're going to present ourselves so so even before you begin the setup is such an important part doing things slightly different so you can again you can see I'm standing up I was going to ask you I'm not standing up and I actually wanted to my bookshelf is in high enough my bookshelf is in high enough I want to stand up but all right because because I would tell you you you could get if I was look if you ask me now if if I thought you were standing out I'm not sure because you that bookshelf for me could be actually a tall bookshelf correct yeah I would love to stand up I have a standing desk and everything but it's that's the next that's a next step in the background because it's the energy right so yeah I feel more in control of my sound because the air is coming in better through my body I can I can actually move better here I don't know whether you've noticed but I my body sometimes I'm leaning forward like yes sometimes I lean my head to the sides perhaps or we'll go like this perhaps towards the camera leaning sometimes I lean back and the great thing about this is it's it's different it's different than just let's say always sitting down and and and not moving we need to move the bet the more we move not fast movements but the more we create movement the more people's brains are are kind of triggered does that makes it does it does so the more we're moving we have to keep things moving and that and and and switching things up sometimes I speak a little bit faster sometimes I'm a bit lower maybe even go towards the mic a little bit more more of this this kind of a tone sometimes I'm I'm as I say right up closer to the to the to the camera even even my hands are going closer sometimes I'm back here there's other things you can do as well which again make make it makes it stick out this is something from it I used in a in a keynote not so long ago so using instead of a PowerPoint using like cards this is just a bit of card with the with a title on it bang and people see that they remember it and it goes away and then I continue so you remember what you probably remember what was written on there because it's different the color perhaps as well there were so many things you could do so bringing things to the to the environment you're in can can can be memorable I'm going to ask you now I'll ask you now so Scott I I've got some books right in front of me I would love you just to grab one of those books behind you from your shelf favorite one and bring it and show it to me on the screen you've got great books and you put them in colors I can see and that this is one of this is this is a great that's a great one okay and this is my one rules of work so the rules of work this is my one here and that's your one there and so this this I then could then ask I could ask you I can say tell me tell me about this book where did you get it why did you buy it there's a story behind every object every single object there's a story behind it I can just I could go like this look this is a bottle of water this is an object there's a story behind this isn't there where I bought it why I've got this bottle why not a smaller bottle why didn't I buy juice I mean it you know so bringing things to bringing things to to this environment we can't do that in the real world we only we can but with this we can all bring something and so I ask you bring a bring a book to to this to this exchange and show it on the screen a book that you've chosen when I ask you that you're also intrigued probably to know what I've got yeah I'm sure you are well I'm sure you were and I can then give you I was gonna ask you well that's that's one of the that's one of the other questions at the end so I want to get I want to get a book recommendation from you but I guess that's it so well that's the first one I grabbed I've got a whole load of books but if you do ask me that I might get another book but the thing is bringing objects and bringing things to the equation bringing things that you can't do otherwise these things help people remember and they're different and they're they they change things up there's something I love this it's it's called an attention reset it's where you kind of you mix things up throughout your call or throughout your webinar or throughout your presentation so as you see I use this I could use that for the for the titles I could then bring an object to the to this exchange I could then tell you an anecdote a small mini story I could then tell you maybe I'm giving you an analogy about something I could then give you maybe maybe a big statement about something I could then give you maybe a a statistic perhaps so every time I share one of those things your brain translates that in a different way so like it appeals to different parts of your brain it breaks the time you see what I mean so if I if I was to just if I yeah that's it breaks the pattern it shakes things up it juices things up and it shakes things up I could just talk to you about statistics numbers figures more statistics numbers and figures throughout this whole conversation right you'd remember a couple but it would get boring and you would you would probably tune out but if I put in statistics then I threw through in a story that was relevance to to the main message then I maybe then I maybe asked your question maybe asked you you know what do you think about or I asked you to challenge me on something and then I maybe bring you know bring an object in not this book again but I bring in another object in yeah so it's just like shaking things up and making sure there's there's differences that trigger our brains constantly very good advice very very good advice that's my I love the cue card idea that's a very cool idea for for a presentation I did a I did a yeah I did a keynote not so long ago and so I just got these and it's like I like the fact that you can sort of like throw them to the camera is that on my camera oh no so so yeah for all the emotional and then his name's black in the bottom but I could off control do that okay so I could do that and just a couple of seconds and hold that and then take it away yeah and then carry on and online what it that is as well it's a really good thing online because if you're recording it it's almost like like a scene cut like when they put the bigger like signposts yeah yeah yeah that's right that's right so yeah the all different ways and I love the fact that every object that you bring has a story behind it I could I could say to you listen and we we're on a call let's say we 25 people or 50 people and I could say okay right now 10 seconds finding object that means that means so much to you something that means you know really a lot to you personally everyone goes off somebody might come back with a I've seen them do this most of them come back with a photograph with a family member a grandmother or kids well it might be an object or a pen or it could be anything and they all come back and then we can start a conversation we can be more intrigued we can find out things about our colleagues perhaps that we didn't even know before and again because I've asked everybody's doing it and everybody's reacted everybody has this it increases the chances that they will be intrigued or curious to know what everybody else has and that's these are just small things that not many other people are doing and so it's if everybody was doing this then it wouldn't stand out but so far if you do things like that bringing objects to the screen to the camera to these exchanges they can often be things that they remember amazing and you stand out well that that was now you're now you're just showing off because I didn't think you're going to go that deep on virtual events I didn't know what you had planned when you only said I want to talk about virtual I want to talk about virtual events well okay so you those are good those are good tips those are good tips okay is there anything else that you wanted to go into for virtual events because the last part of this is a couple rapid fire career questions that I like to pull out from you and your career and just like professional advice so okay any any other last points for people that are are doing virtual right now any more tips you mean or sure yeah yeah not really no you don't have to like listen I'm not asking for more I'm just I'm just opening the floor up yeah well I can give a few more and then that it just adds even more value yeah I'll just come out with a few more quick tips really quick tips yeah okay sure so what you can ask me or should I just say another one oh no do you do your thing I don't I don't know what to ask you yeah I guess okay yeah go for it go for it so another another great tip I would I would say in terms of of really trying to create that connection and that engagement through the screen is to is to always remember that again you you are in charge of of this this energy right you like like in person you are in charge of this emotional temperature so the very very small things of of of smiling small it's a small thing but it starts it sets the tone yeah even when we're let's say right now and we do this often don't we when we look when we're looking at something or reading something we don't tend to smile right because now we we think no one's looking at us when we're reading something or we're going to press a button on the on the keypad to find a file or whatever it is yeah people can see our expression people can see our facial expressions they can see yeah you know what we're feeling and if we're looking for something I know that when I'm looking for something my eyebrows go down slightly and I'm not smiling right but so so these small things we have to be aware of of of our signals our facial expressions when we're speaking but just as much as when we're not speaking because people taking those people can take those messages in different ways when we're not speaking and we've all done it right want to call together a webinar five six seven eight people we're not the one speaking we've just spoken let's say and now it's somebody else's turn we might be like already like looking at our phone or you know looking bored or looking the other way or whatever it is yeah but people can see that so we have to constantly remember people can see us when our cameras are on and it's good to have our cameras on because it helps us create that connection right cameras are on make sure you know what people see and that's a really important thing to remember another one I would say let me think let me think you want to do what you went through a lot yeah yeah no just one last one I'll give you one last one another one I would say is again connected with the setup right so your your um microphone the better quality sound of your microphone actually gives you more confidence right the better quality sound of your microphone creates better confidence confidence in you from the person listening to you and confidence in yourself because you hear you hear your voice is actually deeper better better tone it's more appealing so think about just think you know think about how you sound and if you don't if you haven't listened to yourself listen to yourself or get a colleague to listen to you or record yourself and then you'll hear yourself right so on these virtual on these virtual exchanges often it's one side it isn't it I you know unless I look back at this recording I wouldn't know how I how I sound or how I look like right so being aware of these things it is really important and people are making very you know snap decisions about us even more in a virtual world than in person amazing that's that's more than enough tips people have enough take and run with that's good I appreciate I'm not going to make you go go even deeper people can reach out and if they they're still more after that than hopefully they'll work with you okay let's bring let's bring out some just some tips some advice for people you you've built a very you've built a very impressive career as a speaking coach parlay dad into virtual speaking coach that's not easy either just to pivot your entire business after X many years so what was over your entire career what was your biggest challenge and how did you overcome it for me my biggest challenge I think was was um the the dealing with rejection dealing with people or companies not wanting to work with you reaching out and not feeling great when that rejection comes through or maybe they don't reply to what they do reply and they they they clearly don't want your business right which happens to every single one of us that's natural of course but it doesn't never feels good but again it's it's about dealing with that how are you going to deal with that it's like it's similar to anxiety because when you've got it doesn't feel great but if you know you can handle it and know that everything is going to be okay and know that it's going to go away and then you just keep plotting on out for me a lot of you know the the dealing with rejection stopped me from reaching out to many businesses and companies and and expose not exposing but but to marketing myself because I kind of this this idea of of the rejection what if what if they don't want to work with me or what if you know I'm not right for them and but these are all things that are natural because again I'm I may not be right for them or they might like somebody else or somebody else may be better than me or somebody else may not be better than me I'm like maybe clearly more talented than they are in terms of what I can share but their buddies with them or in their in their circle or they've worked with them before there could be 101 you know a million different reasons and factors why people don't work with you or they work with you and so as my career I'm folded and as I do as I work more and more globally you know I realize that you know it's okay it it feels like a punch in the face but it's okay you're you know that bruise will go quickly hopefully and then you get up and you carry on because if I didn't good I certainly wouldn't I might you know my business wouldn't be where it is where it is right now at least I'm not I'm not a highly successful speaking coach I'm I'm successful in in what I'm doing and in where I'm working and I'm happy with what I'm doing and and it's going it's going really well at the moments they're part in the past sometimes it didn't go well and that's okay sometimes it was you know really struggling at the beginning so ups and downs but but one thing that certainly helped me is you know knowing that it's okay people have the right not to work with you it's okay keep that relationship open keep it going because they may not want you now they may not want you tomorrow but five years time bang you might be the right person you might be the right person that they thought of and think actually let's give this guy a shot or you know I've seen him work with others or he's a he's a friend of a friend of a friend which has said that he's been brilliant so you just never know how all these things kind of intertwined but but yeah for me dealing with rejection was was a tough one it still is it's still tough but I handle it much better if you could tell your younger self one thing what would that be ah good question I'd say in terms of in terms of what what topic okay okay let's let's connect it with we're actually speaking let's connect it with it with speaking emotions are are really really important are really important get hitting emotions making people feel something are really important certainly at the beginning of when you begin to to share your messages online virtually in person on a stage wherever right at the beginning of my career I didn't really I realized this but it wasn't something that I focused on much at all I just kind of just did what I did and all those all the things you do in terms of task and behaviors to to become a better speaker and presenter right now I realized that you know really focusing on how people feel about something and getting them to um hit that emotion will help them make a decision and judgment their judgment and decision is based on that emotion right and if you can if you can get there get them at that stage it's easier to to get towards the outcome that you want to right so thinking more about emotions and the things you say to get people feeling something and then help them make that decision or judgment about you based on that feeling will help you get closer to or it certainly helped me get closer to the outcomes that I want because that makes sense it does the more about the emotions and decisions and judgment yeah no it's very good um who was one person that had a major impact on your life and how did they impact your life or what did they teach you man that's a tough I don't know I cannot think of one person it's crazy but I can't think of one person that would be good to say not that there isn't anyone but there's probably multiple that's usually the problem that people have you don't want to you don't want to single that's fine I don't want to get you in trouble I don't give you trouble I've got nothing for you on that one sorry that's fine no no it's fine um a book or a podcast you'd recommend the people go check yeah I'll give you a I'll give you a podcast so this is a podcast called the um behavioral um bite-size behavioral podcast yeah bite-size behavioral podcast by a gentleman called Neil Page right and this it's great it's it's actually just uh I think he's only done two seasons I'm not sure what he's he's continuing but essentially it's like these bite-size I think three minute three to three four five minutes podcast content of of Neil sharing these ideas on on on on behavior ideas on psychology why we decide to buy something why we decide in terms of I think there's rejection in there I think there's um well there's many different things and it's a you can I mean because there's all bite-size you can actually probably binge on them all and in in a day you can do or listen to all of them well even less than a day probably two hours even but the thing is they're really helpful and they're really the short sharp and um I found them to be really helpful so definitely um many other podcasts as well many other books but that's that's what came to mind first and uh definitely uh check it out that's a good one I've never we've never had that one recommended yet so I appreciate um what is and last last question and then we'll get some uh contact info from you uh what does success mean to you what does success mean to me success means when you're really happy with with what you're doing or what you've done it could be one thing it could be multiple um it could be multiple things it could be a journey a process but when you're you know you've achieved something that you're really happy with and you're proud of regardless of what other people are doing regardless of what other people are have done if I look at myself right now am I am I successful I'm I would say yeah I'm successful in my terms successful in in my world yeah success yeah I am I feel successful in my world yeah there are many others that are better than me I know and there are many others that are better presenters than me doing more things than I'm doing more countries than I am but there are many others that that you know are not as talented that's okay but they're moving forward many others that that maybe think they're they're speaking coaches but they haven't got that much experience but they're doing well as well and that's good but but where I am you know I'm happy I've built up something that I you know I've literally built it up you know I started small I started doing small events and then coaching one or two people and then started to do more with startups and then move forward and then started to do things abroad and then within Europe and then the UAE Dubai and then globally and then really big events so so I built it up because one one thing came after the other would I have been able to go straight to to the top and do these big events that I'm doing right now probably not if I didn't build it up because I had I need the time to build up my confidence build up my talent build up my awareness and build up my myself self-esteem and self-confidence so and in that respect I'm you know I feel I'm successful I've still got a lot a lot a long way to go I've still got quite a lot of years to go before I retire if I retire so yeah success is moving forward being proud of what you've done keep keep going don't don't don't start and and don't also you know one thing not to rely on your past success to define you okay so things you've done in the past are good and you're proud of and it's taken you where you are right now but from now you know I have to keep going I'm as I'm as only I'm as good as as my last emcee event right that's that's the way I see it okay I'm as good as my last job like a singer I suppose there's only as good as his last album perhaps and then most importantly how do people connect with you your social and your website really simply through main main channel through LinkedIn working on my website at the moment so link up on LinkedIn if you've listened to this conversation or you're in Scott's network and you've you've heard of me or you've say listen to this found it intriguing you want to challenge me on anything you disagree if you disagree with anything or all of it if you disagree with everything reach out and tell me why you disagree yeah reach out and see what I'm doing a lot of what I'm doing right now is is is based on the some many of the things that I've already shared with you in in this podcast virtually how to help people get really good at virtual exchanges how they how they move what they say storytelling getting the right chemistry the trust and helping people build that confidence so they get closer to those outcomes they want so if you or your team feel like I could be a good fit in your company put for example I help you or your team reach out and let's see where we can collaborate awesome all right that's all I got that's it that's perfect