Guest Podcast: Reverse Engineering Success (Journey to Master)

What's Upworld? Welcome to another episode of The Journey to Mastery Podcast. I'm super excited I have with me, Scott Clary, and we're going to talk about mindset, we're going to talk about, we're going to talk about a lot of things, but that's where we're going to focus because I know, as I suppose I'm an experienced entrepreneur at this point, my mindset has literally been the thing that took me from here to here. It's the differentiator, it's the thing that when you wake up in the morning, even if you're starting off at the same spot, it's going to determine how far you go, who you go with, and how you go. So mindset is super important. Scott, I'm super excited to talk with you for a number of reasons, but the main reason is because you are, like myself, just an entrepreneur who loves the game of business and loves helping folks. But before we get into any of the good stuff, can I get it? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Nice. I try my best not to put too much pressure on you before we hit record, but it's kind of a thing. You know, every time you say, oh, yeah, I don't hear the Randy Savage. Oh, yeah, I hear the Kool-Aid guy breaking into the courthouse and family guy. And that's the only, oh, yeah, that I can think of in my head. So that's the only one that I can try and do. But as an entrepreneur, right, isn't it so fitting, right? The Kool-Aid man burst through the wall because you have to burst through the wall, right? Because nobody's going to, all the time, open the door for you. You don't often know where the door is. So sometimes you just got to go in, make yourself, self-known, and just say, I'm here. I'm here to change the world. This is, this is what we're doing. The difference is with entrepreneurs. Anyone knows what scene we're talking about. You're immediately my friend. But with entrepreneurs, when we burst through that door, I don't think many of them burst through that. Well, I don't think many entrepreneurs are as happy as that Kool-Aid guy is because most people are stressed out and burnt out and not knowing what's going on and you're bursting through walls and you don't even realize you've burst through a wall because there's 10 other walls ahead of you. So I think that that is an overly optimistic representation of what an entrepreneur's life is. However, that should be what an entrepreneur's life looks like being that happy bursting through walls, but that's what we're here to fix. Yeah. It's more like you burst through the wall and you're like, oh, yeah, and immediately followed by, oh, no, what did I get myself into? Is this the thing that I really want to do? Oh, my gosh. Am I going to be able to eat this month? So let's talk about the journey a little bit, right? We spent a lot of time as entrepreneurs talking about the peaks, the good parts about entrepreneurship, the freedom and the expression, the creativity, the relationships and all the stuff. We don't spend a ton of time talking about the valleys. What are some of the valley moments, right, that you've experienced in your career that you can share with us? Damn. I mean, there's valleys every single day. I think one of the first valleys that you get hit in the face with is when whatever you're building, and when people first go into entrepreneurship, I think they feel like they are God's gift to business. That's why they have an initial courage. And there's going to be a second where that courage exists. And that's great. And then life's going to slap you in the face. And then your customer's not going to buy it from you. And then you're going to wonder how you're going to pay rent next month. And you get humbled so down. Entrepreneurship is the most humbling thing that you can partake in in your entire life. It's tough. It's like very, very tough. So I think one of the first valleys was the first time I moved out of corporate, which was after a company that I was working at. And I was leading sales and marketing at this company. They're required by private equity. And I just did the first version of entrepreneurship that everybody knows, which is I think I know business. I think I'm amazing. I'm going to go consult. And you realize no one gives a excuse me about what you know. And you have to build a brand and you have to sort of prove your worth. And you have to figure out how to value yourself. And because you haven't been consulting for 20 years, your value is insignificant. And you have your billable hours. But then you have to go build a business after your 40 hours of billable hours for the week. Basically, the first version of entrepreneurship is always a cluster. And you're trying to figure how to navigate it. And there's always that, okay, did I do the right thing? Maybe I should just get a job. Like why am I causing so much stress in my life? I'm doing this to myself. So I think it's a pretty normal one. I think the other big ones that our valleys are when you get sued or when you have to fire people, which will happen to every entrepreneur. And these are things that we have this like bright eyed bushy tailed rainbow version of entrepreneurship. And when we get big enough, there will be points where we have to let people go. I mean, these are all problems that come with scale, right? So there will be points when you have to let people go. And it sucks. And it's painful. And you're friends with these people. And that's something that is very hard for people to overcome that that psychological hurdle of firing because most people are decent human beings. They don't like doing it. But it can be a massive. It could be it could really hurt your business if you don't let the right people go as well as not hiring the right people. But I think a lot of people have more problems firing. And the second thing is when you get sued, I mean, the first time I got sued was because we didn't have an ADA compliant website, which I didn't know that was a thing until somebody came along and said, Hey, I'm representing a client and we're going to take you to court because you don't have disability access on your brand new on your brand new website. So it's it's not even like you meant to do anything wrong. It's just like life slaps you in the face when you put yourself out there. So these are things you can all navigate and they all become the norm, hopefully not too much of the norm, but they all become a little bit easier to deal with. But these are things that everybody will go through at some point. Hopefully not, but realistically speaking, this is part of the game of life and business. And I think that these are just things that are just tough things. And again, you speak about mindset. This hardens you. This makes you aware of sort of the type of personality that you need to have and the conviction of what you're building to get through all of these values. It's a lot of good things too, but you ask for values. So those are some. Yeah, the thing that I've learned is that the sun comes up in the morning. Like literally it literally whatever happens on today tomorrow, the sun's still going to come up. Talk talk a little bit about guys that you have that you've had along the way because a lot of this this this game is understanding the need or having the ability to be coachable. Knowing that you don't know all the things that you don't know. Who are some of those people or some of those organizations that have helped you along the way? So it's it's funny because one of the main things that I speak about now and what I what I attribute a lot of my success to is reverse engineering what has worked for other people. So that blip that I mentioned where I thought I was the best of the best and I'm moving from corporate to building my own consulting firm and I'm going to kill it and the ego that ego actually didn't exist in a lot of my career before or after that moment because in my career, I actually I actually was very coachable and I started to develop the concept of reverse engineering success in my career meaning I would look at I mean there's there's countless people because when you think about reverse engineering success there's people that are direct mentors and there's people that you're also just studying from afar that don't even know you exist but you're seeing for example VP or director or team leader manager how do they get to where they are and how can you emulate those steps I mean how will you level up and take new courses maybe this particular company doesn't move people along and give them promotions as quickly as you'd like so you have to maybe go to another company but the point is you're reverse engineering success and that is a coachability piece so it's humbling yourself to know that you don't know what you don't know and always reverse engineering success and everything that you do in your life so you mentioned specific coaches I mean I've had managers and directors that have helped me and sat down with me and mapped out my career I've had people as an entrepreneur who been mentors to me but the mindset means that I'm always my heads on a swivel all the time for the right people so built a life in corporate had some success moved to move to entrepreneurship first version of entrepreneurship for a brief second believe my own hype always a mistake quickly reverted to that same mindset that had me success in corporate where it was I don't know shit I have to go learn and then I started doing this reverse engineering success process again and again and again and again and what that means is everything I take on it could be a podcast it could be growing a Twitter audience go raise money if we building a sales campaign it could be figuring out an SEO strategy for my site it could be figuring out what subject lines work to have the highest open rates whether or not these people know it because this is the best thing about the internet YouTube podcasts or whether they do know it and I've reached out to them sat down with them and I coffee with them I unpack everything they've done at the stage of business that I've done that I'm at and I will map out those steps and I will incorporate it as a first try at what I'm building so I will go to YouTube or I'll talk to somebody and I'll figure out for example I'm running an email campaign or an email sequence to get my first customers okay what tools did they use where's the database of contacts how do they get open rates how did they get click through rates what is a copy in their emails for example what's their ICP ideal customer profile slash avatar what's the buyer persona and I will map out these things that other people have already figured out incorporate them and I'll do that across the spectrum of like business activities that I'm taking on and that's worked out very well and I think that that bridges the gap from where you're at to where you want to be it makes it so it's less opaque it makes it so that you have at least again the first version of what you're trying to build you have a good thesis as to what will work because you're modeling it after someone else's experience and insight so I think that that's you ask for specific mentors but I think that that mindset is more important because it doesn't force somebody to get a coffee meeting with somebody who sold a company for a hundred million dollars. I love that and it's almost like you're reading my notes that's a gray segue into I'm not talking about the great minds right like this is yeah yeah yeah so valleys right we we've talked a little bit about valleys let's talk talk about peaks right so you're talking about how your reverse engineering to get to success so what are some of those successes that you've had as an entrepreneur so far so I mean right now I'm building a podcast too which is done quite well I learned from people like John Lee Doomass with entrepreneurs on fire I've there's there's a great book I'm blanking on the name of it now and I read it a couple years ago on how to on how to structure great interview questions I'm trying to think my my social strategy so for example the podcast growth which is I consider this like a big success of mine that's why I'm sort of giving you the rundown the podcast growth has all been focused on okay how do I create great Twitter content that gets shared great threads content great YouTube content I'm studying for example maybe I'm studying diary of a CEO and seeing how he structures his videos on YouTube or how he puts together his thumbnails so I mean the podcast and what I've built which is a very large business podcast is the most recent that's the most recent sort of outcome of reverse engineering other people's successes and applying it to the thing that I'm building myself my last company it was called Swift was a broadcast software company that was acquired now almost five years ago and that was a B2B enterprise software company and we focused on selling software to broadcasters and that was a massive success so I mean a lot of the sales strategies a lot of the product strategy a lot of the positioning a lot of identifying the the ideal customer profile we were selling to a lot of that was a first engineering other people who were in the B2B enterprise software space and deploying some of their insights and strategies to to my own business so I mean those are the most recent two business wins I'm trying to think what else like every this is another thing people take for granted too and I'm doing it I'm doing it live like every single thing that we that I've built is a win in it of itself and I think that actually people don't talk about mindset people don't categorize and remember their wins enough they always remember the valleys which is interesting but I mean if I've grown an audience on Instagram that's a win if I post a post that goes viral that's a win so I mean every single day we have like hundreds of wins we just only focus on the big things I've applied this to relationship I mean I have a great relationship with my girlfriend now I've looked at things that have worked and haven't worked and other people's relationships reverse engineered those so that I have a relationship and I'm with the person that I love and care about and cherish I think that's also very important I've applied it to my own health and wellness so I reverse engineered how other people eat and other people work out and tested and iterated so that I can sort of achieve like the the ideal body and look and shape and health that I want so there's been tons of wins across my life that have that I can like seriously attribute to this basically I think almost every win has been some version of reverse engineering something as a first pass and then improving on it yeah it's a couple of things that I want to hit on that you said number one remembering your wins I tell my daughter all the time she's a dance competitive dance and sometimes in her division they'll be you know sometimes there's four teams that they're up against sometimes there's eight sometimes there's two and I always try to tell her that it doesn't matter if you're the only two teams in the division first place this first place celebrate the win like it might not have as much a way to as if there's 25 people but celebrate every single win and don't disqualify don't disqualify your wins so I think that's important from a both a mindset perspective and you know using my sports analogy just saying the ball go through the net you know great great shooters it doesn't matter if it's a layup slam dunk or a three point or a free throw actually see the ball go through the net so you know why it's so important it so I'll tell you just I just want to like just drive this point home it's so important because as humans if you look at the way like CNN and MSNBC and Fox and the way they position news it's always negative right the reason why is negative sticks in your brain and I'm sure there's a there's a science reason or a biological reason or a fight or flight or a reptilian brain reason as to why negative imprints but it does and as humans we're really bad I'm remembering the good and we're really good I'm remembering the bad so when that negative imprints on our brains it demolishes our self confidence and I think that the one thing that entrepreneurs have to have an insane amount of is delusional self confidence because when you start something and you build something from scratch especially on day one of course over time the odds start to turn in your favor because you evolve as a person you upskill and you iterate and you learn through your failures but day one I mean the odds are against you like when they say that 90 whatever 5% 99% of entrepreneurs fail these are real stats regardless of how you how you hash them out and and look at this source of that source it's not like the majority of entrepreneurs win on the first thing they built so if you don't if you don't stack your wins and you don't pay attention to them it's it's almost like why would I be building this thing the odds are against me and I can remember all the bad stuff that happened to me over my career who am I to try and build that thing so it's really important like it's more important than we actually realize to to remember who how we've won every single day how we've won this week last week last month last quarter so that we can keep going so that we can have a little bit of delusion and continuing to go because at the end of the day the point is how do you stay in the game long enough to win because if you stay in the game long enough you will win but most people do not stay in the game long enough podcast that something ridiculous like most podcasts only have like five episodes out of the millions of podcasts it's not hard if you stay in the game most people are smart enough if they something doesn't work they're gonna change it they're gonna optimize it they're gonna prove it they're gonna iterate they're gonna ideate they're gonna figure it out they stay in the game the point is you have to stay in the game so how do you do that how do you structure your mindset and your life so you can stay in the game as long as possible yeah i love that um you know you're going back to the cool eight man analogy it looks really fun from the outside looking games like wow cool eight man burst through the brick wall and now he's saying oh yeah but two two things number one i don't know if you you had the the pictures back in the back in the day but the the pictures made a glass so that that's the first thing so you have to you have to think okay well how is this glass picture breaking through the wall in the first place um the the reason is because he's and i'm using this analogy to compare entrepreneurship is you've broken it so many times that now you've built up a resistance to the bricks and that allows you to be able to break through the wall because you banged your head so many different times and so many different ways that now you know how to break through the wall um but i'm curious to know of all the things that you could have built and that you have built why build a podcast because a podcast has longevity it has the ability to build trust it has the ability to turn yourself into a media channel and that you're you are becoming your own media channel so when you try and build a company you will make money quicker building a company selling a product then starting a podcast uh which is great but i think that the future belongs to people that own media so that's why you see people like Gary Vaynerchuk who built a massive media brand being able to launch companies overnight against that media brand so it gives you a ton of leverage when you are starting something new that normally you would have to pay for so the goal was start to build something now that i enjoy and there's all these incillery benefits i mean the relationships we're chatting for an hour we're gonna know a little bit more about each other than if we just consume content on social media so not only am i building an immense amount of trust with you and like the 500 other people that i've done podcasts with and keep in mind these are not small time people so i don't know everyone you've had on your show but i'm sure there's some massive entrepreneurs i've had some pretty cool people on my show then you're like damn i would not have had access to that person if i didn't have this outlet to engage with them chat with them build a relationship with them so not only are you getting this first of all we're both selfish you and me are both selfish because we are sitting down and learning from the most interesting people on earth for like an hour once or twice a week i mean yeah i'm making content i i i get paid to i get paid to put out content and i build an audience and in theory to pay for a future product but also i'm getting a masterclass straight from the person which is unheard of right what's what's that access worth i mean i for example i've interviewed like a co-founder of Netflix could i ask the co-founder like mark Randolph to sit down and have a coffee with me he would probably like 300 emails you know every two hours asking him to sit down and have a coffee so no i could not so this is a this is a this is a an upskilling tool for me it's growing a media channel that pays not enough not enough not as much as a business would i mean we're not Joe Rogan but it pays so it does take care of itself it's fine it's a nice hobby it allows me to network with cool people and then it builds a community it builds a community of people and i do believe that podcasting because it is long form it's not short form it's not it's not stripped of all the context it's not whittled down to 30 to 45 seconds i believe it is one of the highest trust building pieces of content that you can put out on social and when you can build trust on social that's when i believe you win and that is when you not just have a group of followers you have a community that you can actually you can actually galvanize them to help you launch a new brand or a new product or literally anything right so i've started my first podcast that took six plus years to get it to where it is right now now i'm launching a second show i'm launching it my i've launched a second show launched a newsletter i do a couple other things but everything already has an audience that i can test ideas against and if it works i have an audience that i could inferry sell to so it's just a smart play it like it checks all the boxes and it compounds too right so if i do this for 30 years as long as i get better i bring in better guess maybe i upgrade my production value i figure out how to market slightly better my clips are better my newsletters about the podcast are slightly better like i'm always learning as a marketer too i can take these skills i can apply them to any business i launch in the future but the show is just going to keep growing i mean if you're good at what you do you're going to just compound over time so it's really like a flywheel of a of a of a of a process that you've built around all the marketing everything can keep growing the audience and the benefits will never end you're just going to attract more and more people to your community because at the end of the day um a lot of people that build companies that are not significant say you build a company that's worth ten million dollars it's significant to you but if you sell that company and you want to start a new company most people do not know who you are after you sell a ten million dollar company or even a five million dollar company i would even say there's some 50 million dollar companies that no one's ever heard of so what i'm doing i'm preemptively creating an audience in a community that can make that next thing a little bit easier yeah i love that i couldn't have said that any better myself i happen to believe uh scott that if you are an entrepreneur you need a website you don't you need a podcast period you just do um so one thing that you said that that stuck that struck me was uh where we're selfish and some most people would hear that and say well i'm not selfish but i believe that selfish is the road to selfless because if i don't know who i am if i'm not taking care of elzy physically mentally spiritually socially emotionally i am literally no good to anyone else so talk about that a little bit how how you've been able to master scott and show up as the best possible version of yourself and how that makes you a better partner a better entrepreneur and a better person so i say that it's selfish because i'll talk about the podcast in particular that we can expand but when i interview somebody i'm selfish because i want to learn from that person but i also know that the best businesses are built when the founder is the ideal avatar or ideal customer because if you have a problem in your life and you build a business to solve it there will be other people that have that problem what that means in a podcast context is if i am selfish and i want to extract the most juicy interesting information about the people that i interview and i enjoy the conversation and i and i learn something from them and i'm the avatar i know that other people are going to also enjoy that content and i know that other people are also going to find that useful so the more i care i i love the way you said it i've never heard it said like that before but the more selfish you are more selfless you end up being is because you actually are understanding how you tick and then you are basically you're you're broadcasting that out to a whole bunch of other people that are going to find the same stuff that you find useful useful to them now in other areas i think selfish can be misinterpreted and i don't want to say that i mean in a relationship i think i'm less focused on so yeah i would say that i'm selfish in the sense that i'm self-aware of what i need and i'm being honest about that and me and the partner and the girlfriend or the spouse or the wife or the boyfriend or the husband or whatever if you if you aren't selfish enough to look inside and understand what you need you will always be unhappy and miserable and then you are doing a disservice to someone else so i think that you do have to be self-aware and you have to look inside and you have to be honest about what you want now i don't think that means that um you aren't serving the other person and you aren't also listening to what they're saying but i think that a lot of people don't even know what they want in their own life and they're just sort of coasting through life so i think that a little bit i think selfish the term gets a bad rap i think probably self-awareness is probably a better version but regardless whatever it is like look inside and figure out how you can be happy and then architect a life around that i'll give you a very good example like if you if you want kids and that's what will make you happy and your partner doesn't want kids and this is not a real example so don't don't worry this is not like it this is not what's happening in my life we're both very much on the same page but if say that isn't example and i'm sure that's an example for a lot of people so is it selfish to want kids i i don't think so but i would say that you probably should have been aware of that going into the relationship so that maybe this isn't the person for you because now you're both going to have conflict and you're both going to have and i'm not a relationship therapist by any means but i just think that this is like a really smart idea at the onset i think it is itself is if you want to start a business no i don't think it's selfish but i think you're an asshole if you want to start a business and you don't tell the person that you're dating how much time you have to commit to that so that they're aware that maybe you're going to be putting in 80 hours a week into this business and you're going to be traveling a lot and they're not going to see you so like maybe that selfish self-awareness combined with radical candor and great communication skills is really the answer so that you're not with somebody because kids to somebody will be selfish if they don't want kids kids to another person will be exactly what they want so maybe if your selfish aligns that's okay right i don't know the i don't know if that's the best way to say it but i think that's probably i think that people have to have if they take away is like be more self-aware a lot of people are i think really lacking that that self-awareness and i think that that's why a lot of people end up unhappy or fighting or divorce rates are whatever 50 plus percent because they wake up when they're 45 and they're like i'm in a job i don't like i'm in a relationship i don't like or it's not bad but i should have been more selfish and then what happens then so what's worse being selfish at the beginning or being selfish when you're 45 50 55 60 when you already have kids and you're blowing up your marriage in your house so right yeah the the way i like to think about a scot is selfish and i'm one of those people that i mean i get that at some point some at some point in time somebody said that this is the definition of stuff and we call and put it in a book and said okay this is the the definition but selfish to me is a is it is an identifier i'll give you an example of what i mean so if i'm selfish i wake up in the morning the most important thing is that i wake up in the morning because if i wake up in the morning then it nothing else really matters and if i don't wake up brush my teeth you know get dressed and have the right mindset about things then i'm literally no good to anyone now the the key is is being self-aware of what that what the motivation is now if i'm only doing that because i only care about me it doesn't matter what my wife thinks my kids my team members then maybe that's the you know the the wrong side of selfishness right but if i'm doing it because i want to show up better for them and by doing that now i'm a fantastic husband i'm a fantastic entrepreneur and so i become self-liss simply because of the motivation of my selfishness i like that a lot but i think that that's where communication comes in because for example i i may need to go to the gym every morning and my business partner doesn't get why i don't want to jump on a 9 a.m. call well it's because that's my time when i have to gym and if i don't gym i'm not going to have the same energy levels i'm going to be distracted throughout the day so yeah you're being selfish for the right reasons but optics still matter so i think that this is where i think this is where that radical candor and that communication sort of finished the loop because selfish for the purpose of selflessness if it's misinterpreted serves no one so i think that's where you really have to bridge that gap and that's where i mean i mean this is this is like sort of like a cliche but yeah you have to be a good communicator in relationships or they're going to fall apart right oh yeah yeah and that really speaks to no matter what what area of life right as entrepreneurs as as partners we communication is key what what are some of the things that that you've done to to get better at communicating because because again i have this this this emit formula or principle that i that i teach it's um it's i don't have a formula you're probably better than me you can you can teach this part if you want it's called education times motivation times inspiration equals your level of transformation in other words if i'm inspired to do something but i don't i'm not educated about it i'm not going to get very far but if i'm educated on something and i'm motivated but i'm not inspired to do it i'm again i'm not going to get very far but if i'm you know very educated don't have the motivation you get the point um and so that's what i but what i'm saying it if transformation if selfish or selflessness is the transformation that you want to achieve then if you apply that emit formula it gets you there because now you know the motivation piece right because if again if your motivation is is only about you then that's the only transformation that you're going to going to achieve um maybe that's the outcome you want for some people it is all they want is to make as much money as they want to make and they really don't care about anybody else all right they still have a level of transformation maybe it's not ideal for somebody else but i think it's important to know you know that that motivation piece if the if the motivation is to be a transformational leader for example then you have to educate yourself on how do i communicate that how do i set boundaries how do i communicate those boundaries how do i keep to those boundaries and enforce those boundaries and so i think i think again understanding the motivation the outcomes and applying that that framework um that's helped me oh oh over the years so i am far less um formulaic and how i communicate with people however i love this i love that i love i love framework i'll tell you what works for me so i believe that uh most things in life that you want are on the other side of difficult conversations so i apply sort of two concepts so i think it's a male robins rule if i'm not mistaken called the five second rule so if i have to have a difficult conversation with somebody the biggest issue is getting into the conversation because you're going to push it off forever so the male robins rule i could be misquoting this is if you wait more than five seconds you will start to manifest all these different reasons as to why you shouldn't do it and you'll justify delaying and dragging your feet so it's do it immediately and this is not just for tough communications this is for like going for a run or going to the gym or whatever in your life like tough things do immediately um i try and do them when i'm fresh in the morning and i try and have tough conversations uh and radical radically candidate conversations live in person over the phone or on zoom i try and not do it by text email because i think a lot of nuance is lost so it's do it immediately call the person have a tough conversation and then you can schedule follow up but that to me is worked very well um because it just forces you to take action in the most humanly empathetic way possible and that's again there's a lot of communication points we have throughout the day but i think those ones the this this isn't working for whatever reason you screwed up this project we have to let you go um i was i didn't feel respected for whatever reason maybe you're talking to a partner maybe it's a breakup whatever it is please don't do that over the phone but if you have to do it um as in person as possible and as live as possible and as immediately as possible is very important i think that's really the best way to have like these really really career changing life changing needle moving conversations yeah yeah so as we wrap up Scott what are what are the the couple to take away is that you want to leave with people as we think about mindset communication and how to upskill and think about the best way to get better as entrepreneurs damn that's uh that's a loaded question you just got like five different topics that could all be their own podcast bro you got everything in that question um let's see so what to leave the audience with so a couple of things that i really subscribe to that i think are very useful when you're going into something find a way to set yourself up mentally and financially to stick with it for a long time and my rule is 10 years so psychologically and financially find your way to commit to something for 10 years and that could mean financially in particular uh not quitting your job when you first start before you find product market fit uh but the point is you want to keep that thing going for an unreasonable amount of time so that you can learn and you can iterate and you can win because if you can find a way to do it for 10 years i guarantee you you'll be some version of successful and that is not a lot of time in the grand scheme of life the second thing would be i love i love what we spoke about before about just about paying attention to your wins because that gives you the confidence you need to succeed um and that also allows you to stick with it for 10 years and lastly there's no there's no thing that you are trying to figure out for 99.9999% of entrepreneurs it has not been figured out before unless you're putting somebody on Mars and i don't think i'm talking to Elon if you listen to this show that's great but there's a lot of things that people over complicate business is very difficult it's hard work and it's going to be hard work whether or not you reverse engineer someone else's success or you try and figure it out all in your own which is stupid but i get it some of us do it anyways but it's going to be a lot of hard work but it's it's not as complicated like it's not as complicated as many people make it out to be so anything you want to figure out there's a podcast there's a YouTube video there's a book the word that i love uh it's auto-diedact it's a self-taught person just dive into being a self-taught person being an auto-diedact and the rest usually takes care of itself so i think those would be and also i'll say one last thing on mindset so i just wrap this up the reason why i speak about mindset and i think that we're very much on the same page is because there are two camps of thought leaders in the world right now there are people that are very tactical that will teach you how to optimize uh say a Facebook marketing campaign or SEO on your site i won't name names doesn't really matter but there's a tactical business thought leader or or or subject matter expert and then there's the mindset person that focuses on mindset and doesn't really speak about tactics too much and i think the issue is that we look at these two groups we look at the tactical person and we look at the mindset person and as a new entrepreneur we subscribe to one or the other and the issue is that you need both you need both of those things to be successful because you will not build a good business without learning how to run that successful Facebook marketing campaign at a two to three x row as a return on aspen and you also will not stay in the game long enough if you don't understand the mindset that allow like the grit the perseverance that allows you to stay in the game long enough mentally after the motivation runs out so merge the two worlds understand the importance of both because anybody like literally anybody you look at look up to think is a a great example of entrepreneurship whoever that person is incorporates both into their life they may not know what they may not speak about it but they do so hopefully you don't have to learn it's a hard way understand mindset tactics combine them together stick with it for long enough period of time that's how you win awesome and well i appreciate the time and the insight that sharing the knowledge and experience and hopefully this is the last time that that we uh we communicate and talk on on on the show i'm down to Miami man Milwaukee's cold i don't know if maybe i'll stop by next time i go visit home but like if you're in Miami we'll do another one all right out i'm gonna hold you to that all right talk soon can i do that