Ken Coleman - 3x Bestselling Author, Speaker & Executive Coach | Find The Work You’re Wired To Do

What I believe after coaching 10,000 people is what we're really desiring. It's not about great things, but unique. Ken Coleman. You have engine. So that's what we got to figure out. Deepest heart design. In 2005, with no experience, no degree, but a vision burning inside him, he dove headfirst into the world of radio, podcasting and public speaking. From high school football on a country station to interviewing icons like Dave Ramsey. Now as a best-selling author and co-host of the second largest syndicated tool radio show in America, welcome to the story of a dream pursued and a purposeful set. Our greatness lies within our unique. We want to feel as though our day at work that we are doing something that we are good at. We are doing something we enjoy and we are producing a result that matters. This is what we want and we want to be recognized for it. Using what I do best to do something I enjoy to produce a result I care deeply about. Talent plus passion plus mission equals purpose because I believe in five minutes I've explained what is one of the most complex questions in the world to answer. Why am I here? What should I do in my life? Use what you do best to do something you enjoy. To produce results you care the more you serve your team, the better you serve your team, the better the collective unit can serve the customer. Now that's a win. Your capacity to grow is completely based on your belief in your potential. Welcome to success story. I'm your host, Scott Clary. The success story podcast is part of the HubSpot podcast network. I am a huge fan of HubSpot because they support entrepreneurs. A lot of entrepreneurs, founders, executives, listen to this show, and for entrepreneurs that are trying to build, I have a question for you. Does it feel like your teams are getting pulled in a million different directions? When everyone's digging in on different projects with different platforms in different places, it can be tough to stay focused on a common goal and that throws a wrench into things. That's why HubSpot brings everything your team needs into one easy to use and easy to love customer platform with it. They have everything they need to scale the business at their fingertips. So your marketers can write blog posts in a snap with AI and build better leads with in-depth campaigns, sales can build connections and close deals faster with tracking tools and real-time performance insights and service can get a hand from AI-powered chatbots for better support and more five-star reviews. And everyone can deliver killer results and grow revenue faster than ever before because when your teams work better, your business grows faster. Visit HubSpot.com to get started for free today. Ken, thank you for jumping on. I really appreciate your time and excited to do this. It's going to be a lot of fun. So, you know, throughout your career, you've had multiple seasons to your career, but right now you basically help people live their best lives, your coach, your best-selling author, your leveling people up across, you know, work, life, purpose, all of it. So, I want to go into tons of things that you coach people on and you do the live coaching, which obviously before we jumped on, I was a big fan of just understanding your style of contact because it's not easy to do. But let's sort of back it up a little bit. If you look back, childhood, early career, what was that, what was that inflection point to sort of push you down this path? Yeah, my dad loved history. So, history was always around me. Great men, great women, people that he looked up to, so he talked about it, so he was a lover of history. And then he was very intentional to always talk to my brother and I about finding our calling. It was just something that was talked about all the time. And you take those two influences and the way I wrote about it years later, I thanked him in my first book, one question, as I think my dad for instilling in me a love of people who made history and a desire to make history myself. That's the way I described. And that really when you said inflection to me, I think that's a great way of wording. It was those two influences because when you are very aware of people in history and we could just cut a classify for this audience, great men and women who've done great things and reading biographies, that's history. And great moments in history were transformative things happened to make the world a better place. Certainly in the American context, we have a lot less of that history. But throughout history, world history, American history, you can see that. And so when you appreciate that, I think it has a organic effect on you to go, where do I fit in this whole deal? And how can I make the world a better place? I don't have to be a world changer. But can I be a positive influence? And I think that just is a natural byproduct of paying attention to history. And you know, everybody's wired differently. You had half the audience is like, I'm math and science and the other half of us are like, I kind of like in the history and in the verbal the word. So I think that depends on what your jam is. But I also love history and I kind of just fell right into that. My dad's love. I adopted that, if you will. And did again, and then on top of that, he was always challenging us to be our best, to make a difference in the world to find your calling. And when you're young and you hear that feel it, then you either reject that and go, that's nonsense or that's too much pressure. And I just accepted it. And I've just been wired that way. I mean, I'm just telling you, man, I like, I was 10 years old first time I saw Ronald Reagan speak. And I'm not in any way being political here. But I was in the hammered by him accepting the nomination of the public convention and giving this speech and this very positive outlook speech. And I as a 10 year old, I was like, that dude's cool. So I'm probably a little different and a little more of an old soul. My nickname in college was 40. They called me 40 because I was reading newspaper. So I'm going probably a little bit too deep. But that's just my disposition, very much affected by my environment. And so I think that's what set me on the path to I want to make sure that I suck the marrow out of life that comes from one of my all-time favorite movies, probably Williams starred in, played Professor Keating. And he has those young men leaning to that trophy case. And he says, he's talking about sucking the marrow out of life. I was like, that movie really affected me. So that's just kind of how the way I'm wired. You know, you touched on something because I didn't know you were going to go there. But that resonates that resonates so much with me when you look at people that have built incredible things through history. I've never looked at it through that lens. But I adopt a very similar mindset of if somebody else has been able to do it, I can do it too. I have to reverse engineer how they achieve that. But there's opportunity there. When you look at the people that you coach and help and speak with today, do you feel like there is a larger gap in where they are now and what they think they can achieve than maybe even there was historically in the past 50 years? What's the the enthusiasm towards accomplishing great things? I think it's less about accomplishing great things, although that's exactly how every one of them would word it. So you're spot on. But what I believe after coaching 10,000 people is what we're really desiring. It's not about great things, but unique things. In other words, we all desire to make our mark. And Scott, your mark is very different than my mark. And if we are truly authentic in awareness of who we are and what our mark is, then it will in fact, by definition be unique. You and I could be in the exact same field. But because of our uniqueness, our contribution will be unique. So I think we all think what we want to be great, but what I really think we want is to be unique. And I think we want to find our niche. We want to fill it. And that is in fact great. In other words, our greatness lies within our unique. So the great impact for a young girl who grows up, maybe a small town on all she ever wanted to be as a kindergarten teacher. And she goes for it. And she does it. And she's the best kindergarten teacher that this community's ever seen. And she has impact on these kids. And they come back to her years later, you know, that's greatness. But it's not greatness in the definition of what society tends to use the label of great for, which is power, uh, wealth, notoriety, or fame. So I think what we want more of is we all don't want power. We all don't want you know, notoriety. Many people do, but not everybody. They get ready kind of wants some wealth, right? That's that, but that's all about freedom and autonomy. So I think that that's what I've seen. And, and so to the heart of your question, where is the gap? And the gap is confident. The gap is confident from where I am now, where I want to be. You build that bridge through confidence. Uh, confidence spins off courage. But it is only after we are confident in who we are, what we want to do, where we can do it, how we can get there. Confidence in that, that's what spins off courage. And so that bridge is built with clarity first. The more clear I am to get the answers to those questions I just went through, then my confidence goes up because I now can see to your point, okay, I can do something great just like these people. This, you know, it's about all of a sudden confidence comes up in that gap where we are, where we want to be. It's like the bridge comes rising up on the back of clarity. And then we can walk confidently forward. And then when life throws the tough stuff at us, the delays, the rejections, the failures. We have a courage to keep going because we're rooted in this radical clarity of who we are, uniqueness, where we want to go. That's that sense of mission and value, where we can do it, how we can do it, all that kind of stuff, those questions. And that's what gets us to where we want. Talk to me just so people understand because they're, they're listening to what you're saying. They're trying to understand how they can achieve this in their own life. And I find some of the best ways to do it is to walk through, for example, how you came to this confidence and clarity, because this is not your first version of your career. This took years to discover. That's right. Well, so for me, excuse me, so for me, I was in a season of life in my early 30s where I made a departure from this, this direction, this path that I had been on since the age of 16. And that was, I really felt my calling was to serve the public as an elected official. So governor, senator, you know, whatever, you know, I'm here to talk at 16 years. So you're thinking, I got a shot at the White House, you know. And so in my early 30s, a distaste for the political system as a whole led me to a real crisis of belief. In other words, do I believe that that's what I'm actually supposed to do in a game of conclusion? Not right now. And maybe not. So now what? And so that's a very disconcerting feeling to be on this one path for a long time and all of a sudden come to a clear realization. That's not the path. So what path is it? And so I was friends with a couple of really awesome executive coaches that I had gotten to know and they gave me their materials. They were like, these guys were partners and they were like, Hey, you can figure this out on your own. They quite frankly knew I could afford their services. So they need their life mapping material. And I did the life mapping. In other words, I went back and I was in a place of confusion. Where am I supposed to be if not here, which way? And I went back in the process of I looked at what I'm really good at begin to look at. Okay, what do I know? My whole life, I've been complimented for this, this, and this, you know, you begin to gather the facts. And so I'm really talented at these things. This is my bucket. It's not a big bucket. But I got a clear bucket. And that's not false humility, but I am not the most talented guy. But I have a couple of really good power tools. And I realize that. So I, okay, that's good. And then I begin to go back and look at what's moved my heart. What made me angry? What made me sad? What made me happy? You know, I'm looking for clues throughout my life because that gives you a sense of what you care deeply about. And so begin to gather that information. And that got me to a place where I realized I'm good at communicating. And I really enjoy the performative nature of that. In other words, the pressure piece. And I care deeply about people. So that's all I really knew as I'm doing this life mapping. Those, those clear themes were coming at. And so as I begin to wrestle with it more and I'm making a very long story as short as possible. That's how I was able to determine that broadcasting was a similar path to being a politician. A different application of what I'm good at. But there were similarities in what I care deeply about, which was the people component. That grew up at a small church home. My dad was a pastor of a very small church. We were in lower middle class. I watched my mom and dad serve and love people for all races, all backgrounds. They, they, this was not a mega church. This was real church. I call this real church loving and serving on people. My dad would clean the toilets on Saturday and preach on Sunday. I saw two people who cared about people. The true, true representation of what Christianity should be about. They just loving on people, man. It didn't matter what you had done in your life. They were like, God loves you. We love you. Come on. And that developed in me a real sense of loving and caring and coaching and cheering people on. So those were the early themes. And I was like, okay, if I can broadcast to do that, that's why I didn't go to sports broadcasting. I dabbled in it. But the sports broadcasting was missing the serving people piece. And so I was like, okay, the Dave Ramses of the world and some of these podcasts early I was like, that's what I want. I want a broadcast to help people. And so that's kind of how I began on the journey. You know, there's, you mentioned something because even when you went on this journey and you found all these different components of what you wanted to include in your in your in your vocation and your job and your life, there's still so many outlets for that. I mean, like broadcast is like 70% aligned. And then there's all and then maybe a fun podcast could be 80% aligned. And then maybe live coaching is like 90 to 95% aligned. But even doing the work. Like the the fact that you were able to get to the point where you could look at this plethora of different careers and then start to see where you wanted to fit, that's already more work than most people do in their entire life. And you probably see this all the time. And I'm I'm just I'm very curious. In this post COVID gig economy, people were laid off and in masses, people are comparing themselves to individuals on social media. I would assume that a lot of the people that you deal with are just tired, stressed, depressed, confused. What is the climate like right now for a for the majority of professionals and people that are just trying to figure out their life? Is it seem like this? Am I correct in assuming that it's much worse than it was five years ago, like you have your front line. So I'm just I'm trying to understand where people are at in 2024. Yeah. Well, simple answer is the data is showing us that the world of work is getting worse. And okay, this is Gallup. I mean, Gallup is the gold standard I read everything Gallup puts out every year. They put out a state of the America workplace and I read through it like it's the Bible because it's the Bible as it relates to what America workers are saying. So there's no question that the environment of work, that's what I mean when I straight world of work, it's gotten worse. There are a variety of reasons for that. And I could go down any tributary you want, but to answer your question very specifically, yeah, it's worse. And so what people want is autonomy. Now, autonomy, fancy word, just means freedom. And you know, Jefferson wrote in the Declaration of Independence, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. He stole the idea of the pursuit of happiness. That was not that was not his wording. He got that from John Locke, great British enlightenment thinker, Locke got it from Socrates and Plato and all of the Stoics. I mean, so this idea of the pursuit of happiness tied to life, liberty, pursuit of happiness, it's all one phrase. So he says life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, liberty is very much tied to pursuit of happiness. And what he was saying comes from again, all these great enlightenment thinkers and I've read all this stuff. So I don't want to nerd out too much on this. But that's where we see and understand autonomy. I want to live my life. One of the top five regrets of the dying as as written in a runaway bestseller by an Australian hospice nurse was I didn't live the life that was really true to what I wanted to live. So when I say autonomy, I want to back I've given you context that let's get back right into it. Okay. We want to feel as though our day at work that we are doing something that we are good at. We are doing something we enjoy and we are producing a result that matters. This is what we want. And we want to be recognized for it. So to the extent that that's not a present opportunity for workers. That's why we see the data year after year after year from Gallup. It's a 68% of the American workforce is not engaged. It doesn't mean they hate their job. They're just not engaged. That's why quite quitting took off that turn because people just went you just described in one sentence how I feel. I'm going to do adequate jobs so I don't get fired but I'm not coming in fired up ready to go like you'd see a professional football player or professional athlete that's coming in at 5 a.m. to hit the gym studying film all day alone. Why does it why does an NFL player do that? They love the game. They love the game. They want to be good at the game. They want to stay at the top. All right. There are American workers that are like that but the majority are not 68% says that the majority are just kind of making it through. The reason behind that is the context that I just gave you a couple of minutes ago. And inherently we desire to make a mark and we want to be recognized for that mark and we want to care about that mark. And so it's gotten worse. It's gotten worse and worse and worse because we have a leadership crisis in the American workforce because the the M.O. and American work is you know a good job and keep doing a good job and at some point I got to promote you and after about two or three promotions I put you in a leadership position that you might not want. You might not be wired to do it and we're not even going to train you how to do it. And so this keeps perpetuating itself but we wonder why people don't want to go into work. So I gave you a lot there but I'm trying to answer that as whole listening. No, no, I appreciate it. I'm just taking it all in and I'm just thinking about different ways to take this and I want to I really want to take it in the way that will hopefully help the most people possible that are listening to this and like putting your hand up and saying yes that's me. What do I do? But you speak a lot about finding purpose. So again as a broadcaster and radio and broadcaster yourself you know that two prong questions are definitely not supposed to be a thing but I do have a two prong question because I think it's important to give some context. So first thought is you speak a lot about finding purpose. Do you think that and this is just more me being curious than anything? Do you think that the issue with people or not being able to find purpose is that they are fed the lie of I have to achieve greatness and not uniqueness that's the first part to the question and then maybe is there a solution to that but that's a much broader thought and then the second part to that question is okay how does somebody tactically start to find purpose which is probably what you deal with every single day. Yeah, all right so first part there's no question that when all we're thinking about is greatness in the terms of how culture gives it to us and quicker view is that it's power prestige or how many people know my name how many followers likes I get and then well way more money than everybody else that becomes a very intimidating mountain decline. So if all you're ever focused on is I gotta be great. I gotta achieve great in the in the lens of these three categories that can be overwhelming it's like trying to climb Mount Everest with no equipment and no training. It's impossible. So yes, the your first question the improper focus on greatness as defined by those three adjectives or those categories is mind numbingly intimidating for so many people they just go I can't do it look around me I can't be powerful I can't be rich you know but I also don't like my current situation and that's so now despair right I can't I can't get a million followers on YouTube so despair sets in well now I have to accept average or below average man that's debilitating stuff that is a huge problem now so the answer so if I begin to focus on uniqueness and I go I came into this world hardwired with talents and things that I do well and if I get some more education and some more experience I can turn that talent into a sharpened skill so hands off to power saw all right and and if I discover how to use that talent or skill in a way that I enjoy showing up but I'm creative and I've got great creative then I learn how to be a creative and critical thinker and I go where all the ways I can use that and I go okay I could do this now that doesn't interest me oh I can do design oh my god so I love doing this type of thing with this talent and then we go what what what do I want to create with that combination of talent and passion and that's that missional result and I'm spying myself being on mission I want to create websites for products that I believe great what products do you believe it I'm really into health and fitness great well now all of a sudden I take that talent and and I and I do something I enjoy which is the graphic design but I'm doing graphic design that promotes a product or service that I have a connection to I am on purpose I have no problem getting out of bed on Monday morning because I'm using what I do best to do something I enjoy to produce a result I care about let me say that again that's purpose using what I do best to do something I enjoy to produce a result I care deeply about oh that's it that's the sound joy here I mean I'm just telling you it's as simple as it gets and that's my methodology talent plus passion plus mission equals purpose so to get to the second part of your question hit me with that one more time because I want to make sure I heard it but I want to make sure I get the minutiae well no you actually you really did answer the the first yeah you went into it it was really just what is the first step that somebody can take towards figuring out what their purpose is once they understand that their purpose doesn't have to be what society shoves down their throat okay your focus is not greatness it's uniqueness and and and and when I focus on uniqueness and I gave you that this is how we figure it out so that what I'm good at talent what I enjoy doing passion and results I care deeply about mission when I understand that and we have a great assessment called the get clear assessment that comes with the book fine to work your wire to do and I believe in the wiring those are the three wires when I find that out it's got then I can look out into the workplace and I can look at multiple job descriptions in multiple industries and go does that path allow me to use what I do best to do what I enjoy to produce results that I care about and then all of a sudden remember I talked earlier about that bridge between where we are or where we want to be well it relates to finding purpose and work so that I can get great fulfillment and also make a good chunk of money my my max whatever my max is is going to be built on using what you do best to do what you love to produce results you care about that's where you're going to get your greatest performance greatest engagement so that's the simple plan and it's duple because it's actually understandable my my if I if I could stem my fingers I would put that curriculum in every school in America what I just explain because I believe in five minutes I've explained what is one of the most complex questions in the world to answer in such a simple way why am I here what should I do in my life use what you do best to do something you enjoy to produce results you care so here's going to have great proficiency tremendous passion meaning and money babe hey guys Scott here I just wanted to take a quick moment to say a heartfelt thanks to every single one of you six years of this show and it's really all because of you your listens your support your shares it will keep this thing going when I started I had no idea how big this would get how many lives we touch the stories we share the lessons that we learned together it's truly humbling and I believe that we're building something really special here a community where no one has to reinvent the wheel we're all in this together learning and growing and here's my ask if you love this show it's made a difference for you please share it with somebody who needs it hella friend host on social whatever works it's the best way to keep this thing going strong bring on even better guests and share more life changing wisdom and you can find us on all the spots so you can go to successstorypodcast.com if you like listening to podcasts if you like video you can go to youtube it's youtube.com slash c slash scott declary or the newsletter newsletter dot scott declary.com just spread the word I'm eternally grateful for each and every one of you let's keep learning let's keep growing and let's keep making this world a little bit better together all right let's get back to the show I also think that it's very important to highlight that you didn't just say go start a business it does this thing nothing to do with that at all might be your gig but it might not be yeah because guess why let's let's let's take that out I've done segments on my show where I'll talk about if you struggle with this this and this don't ever start a business in other words entrepreneurs are wired different entrepreneurs are wired with a specific set of talents hard skills and sauce skill heavy on the sauce skill they're just wired different and if you're not wired that way you shouldn't try to be an entrepreneur there's always this gap between like intrinsic motivation like you just mentioned and then these external extrinsic motivators like like money really is the main thing and I think that well we'll move on to something else that I want to beat this to death but I think that the issue that people have is they think that the only way to feel internally fulfilled and sort of go and bridge that gap is to build their own thing is to become an entrepreneur because they're also seemed again there seems to be this this hate for nine to five and w two and employment that I think is incorrect I also agree with you that not everybody should be an entrepreneur or even needs to be or even needs to adopt the version of entrepreneurship that seems to be this stand for dropout you know go balls to the wall hopefully you find a way to make money in the next six months and if not then you have to go back to work there's so many life is not so black and white that's that's the takeaway and I think there's a lot okay let's see where do we want to go next um you speak a lot about there's all these different leadership uh principles that you speak about and one thing that you speak about often is servant leadership and I think that's a very noble principle and it's important but let's talk about let's talk about maybe a contrarian view to that how to be a good leader when times are tough when things aren't working when the idealistic version of leadership doesn't exactly fit when shit's hitting the fan which is really when a leader has to show up and I'm asking this question because I think you can be a good leader in your own company maybe a good leader in your community in your workforce but I find that when leadership falters and we see that every level to the to the leaders of government and leaders of company leadership falters when things are hard not when things are easy so how do you walk through the idea of servant leadership or idealistic leadership in a tough situation when maybe you have to make hard decisions I love how you frame this I really do no one's ever asked it that way and I and I'm someone embrace your contrarian question and say um you can be a servant leader in the worst of times and I think it's the way you probably perceive servant leadership as it's idealistic and I'm going to say it's not idealistic it's actually the most practical style of leadership let me give a metaphor um I believe that the another metaphor besides servant could be coach if you lead like a coach I think it is still the essence of servant leadership I'll give you I'm going to give you to it at a time because I love how you've challenged that it's a good conversation I'm also going to throw out the metaphor of commander instead of coach we we I'm going to go the coach route the commander I'm going to give you both at the same time and I'm going to I believe prove to you that that is servant leadership so let's take the coach the hardest of time a team is in a losing street or a team has got a big game coming up all the marbles are riding on this fan base he may lose his job you know you know the pressures we can we get understand this and that coach has still got to serve his team so let's put it this way that coach has got to sit there in a very challenging time where a win a w is a must got to win hard times tough opponent three or four injuries are best players you get it it's just adversity everywhere that's what you're getting and you be a servant leader in adversity the answer yes you should be I just don't think it's this meat hey can I get you a hot towel we're not talking about a flight attendant servant we're talking about a true servant meets the needs of the master and so if I'm going to serve my team if I'm the leader I'm going to serve my team and that coach in that situation has to ask himself and his coaches what is our team need right now we are surrounded by a person so one of the team needs in the scenario we're talking about is there's probably some guys on the team that needs some confident I got to figure out how to serve confidence up to them I got to inject them with some confidence some belief that's what this player or maybe our defensive unit they need some belief I got to serve them some believe I got to get them some belief all right let's go to the commander exam I think of saving private rides one of my all-time favorite leadership movies you know Tom Hanks plays the erstwhile humble leader you know but there are multiple times and out throughout that movie if we're sake of time I'm not going to describe a scene that we probably all can remember but there are multiple times in that movie where he is in fact a servant and what he is realizes what does my team need right now what does this unit need they need a story there's a classic moment where they're they're hunkered down and he can tell the guys are nervous and they're missing home and he tells a story and he changes the vibe in that room and it's a beautiful illustration by the director there of in that moment his team needed some hope so I'm gonna challenge that view and say the servant leader it's not about style servant has nothing to do with your temperament or that you're meat or that you're lowly no no a servant leader is maniacally focused on what does my team need what does my unit need what does this corporation what does this company need this division what do they need right now and when you can think of it that way and in the lowliest terms of a servant and that's why that term is so powerful and it's get used to describe the servant leader because a servant was at the lowest level of humility and their entire existence was to provide for the needs of someone else when you flip that from the lowly servant to the leader takes on that mindset of my job is to make sure my team has what it needs to win so I've got 20 people in my team what does Scott need to do his job really well maybe Scott's got some stuff going on his personal life that is tough stuff and he's not a robot he's a human that's dragging some crap from his personal life into the office because he's a human and so what does Scott need right now Scott doesn't need more resources at work you know Scott needs Scott needs a long weekend I think that's what servant leadership is this maniacal focus on what is the team need and how can I serve it to them that's that's so I do think it's ideal in fact I think servant leadership in the hardest of times is the best way to go because it's not you in a posture of I've got to figure out all the answers no it had a time of adversity I want to know what the team says they need is I think it's going to inform what we need to do as an organization and what we need to do you know what I think I love that it's a very very well described scenario and I think the year 100% correct I think that I think that the concern that I have with leaders and and and crises situations is that the human nature is to default to a command and control style when shit hits the fan so for because you you listen listen you speak to entrepreneurs founders CEOs executives managers directors all the time so for people that are listening to this they may not even be aware of how they are going to default or the leadership style they are going to default to except when something bad actually happens and by that time I would assume sometimes it's a little bit too late to change your style or to train or to prep yourself so you dealt with a whole bunch of leaders going through COVID somebody who's listening now is a leader who manages people as director port to as employees what's the training or the work they have to do so that when shit does hit the fan they can do exactly what you said got a couple things number one get in a rhythm of regular conversations with your team and it's in it's driven by two questions that can have derivatives but two main questions you need to ask of your team every week individually and if you want collectively the questions are number one how are you doing it's got how are you doing you burned out it tired know your mom with do something you know what I got to know enough about you and to be able to ask about that and they they're getting to see I genuinely is the leader care about you as a person how are you doing the more you ask that question and the more they open up to you and they see that you care guess what happens their trust level in you goes a big time is now they go hen is forming he's not I'm not a unit of production he actually cares about me as a person and that will allow them to answer the second question much more honest is this is the breakthrough in the corporate workplace at any leader at any position any any any industry the second question is how can I help you win in your job now most people want to answer that question honestly the first second third fourth maybe fifth time keep asking they may give you some surface stuff the more you keep asking as a result of asking the first question and by the way acting on it so Scott says you know my daughters you got to scare right now we've got some medical testing going on would it be best if you took two or three days because we can cover for you we'll figure out a way you tell me what we need to do with that two three days so we don't drop the balls that you're carrying but I want to give you two three days just take some time with your wife and your daughter and yet man let me tell you something that's huge and so understanding what's going on what you're dealing with and acting on it then builds trust and then they begin to say well here's the reality uh you moved me into this roll six months ago and I don't think we had adequate training not gripping I think I've noticed there's two or three things that I need this skill set can you give it to me or can you give me some training and I think it's gonna that's gonna take care of this gap I'm experiencing man that's that is light blood for a leader to be able to know that information and act on that all right so those are the two primary questions that I would be asking so that you begin to train yourself to the point of your question so that when it gets tight or it gets adverse and it's a storm everyone you'll save with you the leader and so they'll speak up and go hey I know your plan is to batten down that hatch this hatch and this hatch but I actually think we should put some sandbags over there and they don't think that you're gonna bite their head off because they know you care about them enough to ask about them and and you've built some rapport and they know that you care about their opinion too and and that servant leadership comes and goes what do you guys think we should do I think we should batten down these three windows over here what do you guys think and because you've done those other two things I've talked about in the moment there's high levels of trust and the higher the trust is in calm times the higher the trust will be in the topsy turvy times the adverse moments and man trust is huge and thinking clearly and acting clearly when when you're backs against the wall and that's huge and so then we're able to act I think in a much more calm and trusted way and in adversity there everybody's for you and they're telling you what they really think they go hey listen I think that's okay but I don't I think we've got to put some sandbags over here first and I think we do that it gives us time to do this and you go I actually think that's great and and and so you're not acting alone back to something that you asked me earlier I want to say is the default for leaders is to solve not to serve and I think if you serve they'll help you solve that you know what else happens when when when you adopt this mindset and you build this trust and you and you serve to solve you also solve this problem of of meaningless work and from from the perspective of the employee because now the employee feels like they can map out their career with you and plan their next steps with you and figure out where they want to end up so not only is the employee going to feel like this particular season of their life has more meaning and purpose and potential future alignment also as a leader you're not going to be dealing with quiet quitters or people that are you know taking interviews on lunch breaks because now you have this rapport so the goal is to solve this crisis from both sides so you have to find your purpose but also the leaders have to do their job understanding that as this person is going through this career journey they're going to be part of your organization and to get the most out of them while they're part of your organization you have to be acting this way and then all of a sudden you create just a better version of work yeah and to your point perfect point when I as a leader serve my team well we as a team are better equipped to serve the customer and we can't forget all this servant talk and serving all can go wait a second all of this leads to us actually serving the most important audience which is the customer if we're not serving the customer we have no business you have no jobs and so it is a trickle down effect the more you serve your team the better you serve your team the better the collective unit can serve the customer now that's a win talk to me I know we sort of dance around this but I think that it's something that you speak about often and I think it's an interesting concept the psychological impact of meaningless work and it being psychologically torturous and outside of just impacting the organization and impacting the customers and impacting your personal career path because there's so much more to it than that oh there's so I mean it's it's about shelf worth like your capacity to grow is completely based on your belief in your potential so I have to have belief in my potential for me to then realize my capacity to actually grow in other words once I realize I've got potential then I begin to look into that and go oh so if my potential is here and I'm here now I see the gap and I can see where I can grow and that has tremendous meaning and you know what I mean another word self-work so to the heart of your question a person who doesn't believe that their job matters quickly starts to believe that they don't know I mean it was that is a torturous thing that throughout history has been done in prison camps where I mean you talk about Victor Frankl who wrote since who writes in search of meaning the Bible along purpose for work in my opinion and he writes it wow largely writes it while in a Nazi prison camp and he is his his goal is to he gets up every day and he's trying to find purpose by rewriting everything that he believes and learning from what he's doing as he's moving in one heavy rock from one side of the prison camp to the other and then once that pile is transferred they come back and you want to talk about meaningless work and that was mental torture it was psychological torture so that's the that's the heart of it if I don't think that my work matters to me I will eventually get to the point where I think well it doesn't matter to me I don't think it matters much at all that means I don't matter and now you're in a really scary spiral of depression that can lead to I'm meditating in so many ways and you asked me this question earlier on the interview one of the main differences in the world of work over the last five 10 15 years is such a a trap of meaninglessness and and that's why we see depression and and and all kinds of things stress in the workplace people going home their physical life suck as they're overeating or their sugar you know they're they're meditating through sugar or alcohol or you name it man I mean all of the stuff we humans do that are detrimental to our physical, emotional and mental selves is a form of medication and I'm not trying to overstate this but I believe if I could wave a lawn and give every person in the world meaningful work you would see a massive drop in those other areas of vices and detrimental effects. Well I think that one thing that I saw during COVID which is so telling what you just mentioned is is people would rather take a government paycheck and stay at home and do then do the jobs that they were doing this happened a lot I mean I'm Canadian I think it happened down year with a whole bunch of stimulus checks or you know similar similar style programs that's horrible that's absolutely horrible right because that's why do you think that is I know lions are curious what do you think why would the human go I'm going to take the government check as opposed to go out and chart my own pen I feel like so I thought about this because it's so out of alignment with what I believe in who I am like I look at work even when I was starting in my career like I would push my university classes to evenings and weekends so I could work during the day because I saw work as an opportunity for advancement and I saw work as an opportunity to achieve the life that I wanted to achieve all right there's the answer more exactly so the more hours you had a destination yes see you had a destination so let me take this to a simple little metaphor okay if you're driving in a car and you told me right before we start recording that there's a massive thunderstorm in the Miami area but so imagine you're out on a Miami freeway and I'm talking a day illusion of water you can't see past the hood of your car what are you doing you drive it slow you're not you're not you're putting on your hazards and pulling over you nailed it you got the whole answer I'd begin to slow down and eventually I pull over and I'm stuck waiting for the storm to pass when you don't have a personal or professional destination there a direction in mind psychologically emotionally mentally you do the same thing we're doing the car and so all of a sudden you go I'll take the check because I'm not moving forward I'm stuck I don't know where of those to go so got to exist and so it is existence becomes the primary function not persistence and and progress like I just got to exist so I'll take the check that's what's cool and on there's a lack of direction so there's stuff just like we would be in fog or rate having my voice all of a sudden all right sorry you got you can get some water if you want no I'm good brother I don't know what happened me I'm too excited right now I just want to take a second to thank the sponsor of today's episode HubSpot now HubSpot has an incredible podcast network success stories part of it and if you like success story you're gonna love other podcasts and their network one of my favorites is i digress is hosted by Troy Sandage what Troy does exceptionally well is in under 30 minutes he helps eliminate complexity complications confusion in your business he talks about frameworks strategies that really work to help you achieve scalable and sustainable success so you need to go listen to i digress one of the most useful podcasts for entrepreneurs and founders part of the HubSpot podcast network wherever you get your podcasts no that's good it's I think that's such an important point so the second thing that I think is really top of mind for people and I'm just curious to get your opinion on this is is new technologies and in my opinion these new technologies are gonna replace mediocre work I don't think we're gonna see mediocre work anymore I mean I've heard um I can't remember who said this but the the comment was in the future you will only be able to work on the things that you want to work on and not have to do work that you don't want to work because that'll all be outsourced of technology so given the fact that I don't think we'll see any more mediocre work going forward because that can already be replaced to some degree and it will be even further replaced and the fact that you can only work on things that you want to work on where do you see technology fitting into purpose work upskilling development people are scared of it people are embracing it just from all the people you speak to what's the general consensus I think that AI is not going to replace you but a person who's better at using AI will replace you I think that's the bigger concern uh I do I think that they're going to be a sector of jobs that will be affected yes I think a lot of your administrative tasks obviously we've already seen automation take a big step forward there AI is going to continue to do that but but by and large I think what's going to happen is to your point I love the way you set it I just think everybody's going to become a gig a worker or let's call a freelancer probably the better term I think everybody's going to be a freelancer and I think the days of the resume uh are on their way out and now it's going to be kind of a profile of what digital profile you know and you show your work it's about your brand it's about how you do the work in other words an example of this is we're already seeing lawyers at law firms that are using AI so effectively to where the AI is replacing many many hours of what they would have spent doing the clerical and the paperwork and everything and you know what they're doing they're pivoting and they're they're building off of AI and say AI can replace me on all this paperwork and minutiae and all that I'm going to go focus on the relationship with the customer so I really believe that if you embrace AI um I think it's going to actually put a premium on the personal touch and I think as AI becomes more and more of our everyday life we will appreciate what it does for us from an efficiency and convenience standpoint but as humans we will crave the human touch and I don't mean in this case the physical touch but but maybe that too but I mean you're going to crave talking to a human and and so I think those are two big takeaways uh you leverage AI leverage technology uh to specialize you know one example I saw that uh I read in a LinkedIn article about this very topic is you're going to have a person who is scavenging for rare mushrooms and they build a website in 10 minutes and they start selling these mushrooms all around the rule they're making 250 grand that's a specialization you're really good at foraging for mushrooms and reselling them to health nuts who love mushrooms like I just think the diversification and specialization is what is going to be the new way of work then the last the last thing that I I thought would you'd have a comment on because you spoken about this again in your book you speak a lot about dreams versus marriages so genuine career aspirations versus unrealistic goals um that could be disheartening to some people because now they've bought into this whole concept of I'm going to find my purpose I'm going to go out there I'm going to line my skills what I'm passionate about and what the market needs but maybe I'm shooting too high or maybe I'm looking at something that you know I don't want it to sidetrack the thing that I have over here the nine to five that's paying the bills and I don't really love it but I don't hated enough to quit and I have a family and I have kids and what if I what if I you know shoot for the moon and completely miss and and that quote of ending up in the stars doesn't apply right so what do you what do you what's the framework what's the mental model to make sure that your aspirations are sound well do I have a talent to pull this off now not the Super Bowl version right but do I have the talent actually and do I enjoy everything that goes into it the working now the eating right the getting bruised and hit and cut you know getting concussed every once a little while do I care deeply about winning am I driven naturally motivated by achievement and winning I have a competitive juice that must be met I got to get that out that's that's that's how we figure that out now so we know what wired for this is back to my methodology I mean in my wired for like the kid that goes to try out for American Idol might love the idea of being famous and love the idea of singing in their shower but if they suck and Simon Cal tells them they suck they're not going to be a pop star so that's why I say we've got to retreat to clarity when we have these big big dreams and feelings is it a mirage or is it a dream we're going to go all the way back to do I have the raw talent do I have a legitimate unbridled passion I'm willing to suffer the the root word for passion is patie in the Latin and it means to suffer are you willing to suffer wait wait wait wait wait and and and then you know do you care about the result of this of entertaining people or or talking about sports wherever when I when I started out pursuing sports broadcasting before I got on the path that I'm on now and this is the answer to the question in a very real story I I showed up at high school football game two hours before the game I was going to play by playing on the internet two people were listening the guy next to me who was doing the color and my wife because she's a good woman and one of me wanted to affirm me when I got home I showed up two hours before the games I was interviewing coaches and they were like who is this guy how did he get down on the field and you know I was like I'm with complete game broadcast and they didn't even know we were doing it you know I'm like asking them questions like I'm Jim before the Super Bowl why because there was purpose in the lowest rung of the ladder and that's what that was there was purpose because I knew if I was going to do it big time I had to learn how to do it small time and so I showed up early I treated it like it was a Super Bowl I listened to myself I like that was awful don't do that again I mean I was doing the small stuff in order to determine whether or not I was willing to stay long enough to actually do the big stuff that's important so that's how you determine that is it a mirage or if it's a dream because if it's a dream you show up two hours before high school football game and ask weights him any questions to see if you like this enough to eventually love it see we've got to understand that the mirage is a feeling I think I'd like to do that but then when I got a show up and do the hard work and prepare and start out at the bottom and if I don't like it at the bottom I'm not going to love it it's the bottom line you got to put in the reps so so that's how you know if it's a dream or not if you are willing to suffer rejection suffer patience waiting as to suffering my gosh waiting as suffer you know if you're willing to do that it's a dream and that tells you I am willing to show up on the lowest rung of the ladder and hang out for a while and get my teeth kicked in and and all that crap because gosh I can paste it and here I am today I you know the first day that I did my series XM shows a national show series XM and two months later I was in New York and they let me do my show from their New York studios man this is glitz it's glamorous telling the hall from Howard Stern I was doing my show rep and I look up at Al Roker was right across the hall from me do it his show and I got a motion because it was in that moment that I that I realized that it was worth showing up doing the high school football and no one was listening to nobody care and I was away from my wife and three kids I wanted it I wanted it that it was a dream that wasn't a morade I love that I want to I want to bring out just one last a couple last stories because I mean you work with so many incredible people and you answer all these questions live and you coach and I love stories too so tell me tell me a few one or two whatever you can pick some of the hardest conversations and live coachings that you've had to do what are some of the most difficult things you've had to deal with over I mean the years you've been doing this now I think one of the most difficult moments I had was early on and when we were just on serious we weren't on radio yet we were serious XM and we were podcasting it and we were probably five months in and I had not taken a call yet that was gut-wrenching and it was the first gut-wrenching call ever took and it was I say it was difficult because it was all I could do not to sob into the like that was difficult the story was a guy called me and he presented himself at the stop of the call he said can I I've got two pass I'm in technology now and I've been in for about five years and I've seen some rapid growth and I've got an opportunity right now to take a job which in a couple short years would put me in a in a CTO position major deal big money stock all the all the accoutrements of professional life he said but I'm wrestling with this nagging feeling I then I'm supposed to be a child therapist and that's how he presented and so cutting throughout all got some more background at one point I just looked at him and he was really torn and I had a sense that he really wanted my permission to to to walk away from the big time technology future and go be a child therapist but he was wrestling with it was going to be a lot more time a lot more money you know because you had to get reeducated for that you got to get a degree for that you got to get some advanced degrees and it was a path and he was really wrestling with it and I felt that his heart was saying child therapy and his head was of course telling him to what do you what do you not you gonna walk away from it so at at at this point in the call I just put it to him I said I believe there's something in your story that is compelling you and it keeps coming up there's a reason why the child therapist keeps coming up and I'd never done this before I'm new up six months in and I just felt it and I said what's what what is that and he broke it started sobbing well I was like what have I done you know and he was starting to get to me you know when someone is that deeply wounded and you I knew something was there and he he garbled it out he went I was abused as a child and I don't ever want that to happen to somebody else but if it does I want to be for those kids what my therapist was for me and dude he's like I'm still at this mold a little bit choking on that but he was sobbing while saying that that took about 30 seconds to say what I said seven that was different to sit in that mold with that guy and decipher I don't think he needs me to say a whole lot I he needs to hear that and he heard himself say it and so I let the moment sit for a minute it was very somber because of course you know it was live and you just kind of let it breathe and I just said there's your answer man so find a way you smart about it but you are supposed to stand in the gap and help other people become who you are now and it was just man it was all like a do not to just cry that was that was probably the most difficult call I've ever had to deal with because of the sensitivity of it and there's a time to stop coaching and I did and thankfully I was in the mold was able to just go man there's the answer you know I would argue that you actually didn't stop coaching you actually coach the way that people should coach I think that you actually guided somebody through a really difficult moment which I think is actually the most beautiful version of of a coach I think that just coaches had a different connotation associated with it which is a whole other issue that I have with you know air quotes coaches that wouldn't have dealt with that situation in the same way yeah I just have learned that there's always a story from their story um when somebody presents an A or a B and they present as I'm leaning more towards B or I'm leaning more towards A I have learned to go ask them what from your past do you think is influencing this feeling and I I'm a firm believer that if you do the work that I talked about that you've got the talent and then your heart is overwhelmingly saying and that's what passion and mission the what I love to do and the results I care deep about are all heart so I always tell people follow your heart when you're heading harder in a wrestling match all I'm asking is do you have the the raw talent that with training and experience you can pull it off if that's seen if the answer is yes then you better follow your heart are you gonna get to the end of your journey and you're gonna regret and I want people to get to the end of their journey and reminisce you know and that's what that guy was facing in that moment and it was so deeply rooted in a willing that he had healed from and so he would have never been happy because there was a deep abiding uh hole on his heart and that's what we all long to do remember we started the talking thing people want to make their mark everybody's got a different mark they want to make and not all of them are deeply rooted in really tough pain but I would say that on some level there's a there's pain behind every purposeful direction there's some level of pain could be the pain of frustration could be the pain of rejection whatever you know I think that this is why you've done so well at the work that you've chosen to take on because you lead with empathy which is obviously that was sort of shown in that moment but it's probably what's allowed you to to go a level deeper than a lot of people again who call themselves coaches or or try and support and and and and guide people through career moments in their life personal moments in their life if you were going to look at what's made you so good at what you do that was showcased in that moment has and has been showcased in hundreds of moments ever since when you guide people and help people and support people and you just mentioned you go a level deeper and you look at what are the underlying things that are prompting this internal frustration I want to pull out something from you that you sort of understood to be your superpower that can help doesn't have to be other coaches just help people go through their life be better at guiding other people because I think that the very noble talent I think it's as simple as asking questions from multiple different angles dig until you hit the metal I really that's it I am very curious by nature we all have a level of curiousness I'm I'm really really curious I was just in a meeting before this podcast where I'm meeting with my producer on some stuff and we're trying to do stuff on my show and he was pushing back on an idea that I just threw out there and I could tell that he was getting a little it wasn't ugly at all but it but he was getting a little bit like and I said hey I I still I'm not saying that my idea is right I just need to get a few more angles on this and he laughed because he that's how I'm liar so I do it in a meeting as well when someone says to me no on an idea and I don't feel like we've looked at it from every angle then I keep asking questions well what about this well why not this that's how I'm liar I don't get to certainty as fast as other people but when I get to certainty I'm there and I would say that is a superpower I do have to give the discernment but it is the question asking to go multiple levels or maybe come from a different angle to verify that what I'm sensing and discerning is real that's what helps and I think that will help us all but that's what I have to coach people live on the air in eight minutes I had to learn how to do it quickly I mean me coaching you in an hour it's not even fair yeah especially when I can see yeah because I can read things most of my coaching has been done on the on the phone so you have to listen for things and so I just have learned how to ask questions and ask it a multiple different ways to verify what I'm discerning and then I reveal to them what I'm seeing and they then tell me if I'm right or wrong but but at that point they I say well here's what I'm seeing or hearing and they will validate or go no no no you're wrong okay uh but most of the time I'm right because I don't reveal what I'm seeing or hearing until I have dug until I've got to the bottom of the hole and we're hit and pater I love that I love that what do we not go into that you you think would be valuable for the odds you wanted to so many different things what do we not go into you know there's one topic that has blown up on my instagram and it was micro manager at 10.2 million views of of of a 30 second video of me saying micro managing is about fear if you've got a micro manager you need to understand something uh they're fearful they are terrified they're holding so that might be a fun topic I don't know if you've got a leadership audience because it's it's instructive for somebody who's dealing with it like how do you manage that micro manager is an angle we could go I know I think no no by the way it's it's so I thought I thought we I thought we put that to bed with the the leadership conversation and but but you know maybe you maybe people I think people still feel like listen there's bad leaders everywhere I don't think I don't think we have a shortage of bad leaders so yeah we can talk in again I'm spit ball you go you go where you want to go no no I don't mind I mean we've got through so many different things we've gone through so many different things so that's a hot topic so why is micro management still a hot topic I feel like we've gotten over micro management like I feel like it's the thing of the past like I feel like it's not supposed to be applicable anymore yeah but it's a little massive front and and and the reason is is you know we were talking earlier about people desire autonomous so autonomy you can be free and still work for somebody else but the sense of freedom is is that hey Scott I heard you to do this okay and I'm gonna give you the tools you need to do it I'm gonna train you how to do it I'm gonna tell you how I want you to do it when I want you to do it but I'm gonna let you do it and then after you do it a few times we'll do some review and we'll say what do we need to do that but that's not how it works what we see is as a fearful leader micro management still is such a big choking attribute I call it a deadly trade of leadership because it is the response of a fearful leader they're afraid because they don't have all the resources they have from up above or they feel like someone's breathing down their net and they are trying to control a situation that they don't feel they have control over and the only way they know how to control it is to what we call micro management which is you know be over over involved overbearing and they're not doing it because they're a bad person they're doing it because they're a bad leader and that may be the only model they've ever seen number one number two it could be because they are experiencing massive fear and who among us is rational when we're fearful what are we doing we're fearful we try to like take control of everything and remove every risk and so the reason that will always exist is because of the human nature of people when they are fearful and there's a lot of things to be afraid of in today's workforce and so sometimes you have to lead up so to the leader that may feel like man I am a little too controlling I would tell you to do some work on yourself go see it there get to the heart of what are you afraid of now for those and then by the way once you get that leaders and you see that oh my gosh this is a blind spot I I'm afraid of this so I'm afraid of that what do I have to do to remove that fear it makes you a better leader and that will also make you a less controlling leader now to the person who is underneath a micromanager this is tricky and this could be a large portion of your audience what do I do all right number one you need to seek to understand what they're afraid of do your best to try to figure it out and your one-on-ones with them go hey what are some of your biggest concerns with our team you know there's some there's some subtle ways to do this that don't make them defensive at all it's a managed job which is really the hardest thing to do it's a very hardest thing to do but absolutely essential sometimes because you just leave every company where there's a micromanager sometimes you're going to have to be an adult and I think the way you do it is is seek to understand with some very smart questions and some observations what are they most afraid of I know we know what they're afraid of how can you address that with you you may not be able to fix them but you might be able to put a boundary up with you so you go oh they're really afraid of not being communicate so what am I going to do I would overcommunicate I've pinpointed that they're afraid that they don't know everything that's going on so you know what I'm going to do as it relates to me and my role in my relationship with them they're going to know everything I'm going to ask for a weekly meeting I'm going to send them an email on Friday telling them everything manage that fear and here's what will happen they will look at you anymore and they will project their fear onto you they'll go I don't have to worry about Scott Scott's the model yes what happens they turn their attention away from you and so at least makes your situation better maybe then that spreads maybe your coakers go what did you do Scott how does how how are you the favorite you go I get news for you I'm not the favorite guess what I did I figured it out they got a fear here so I mean it is the fear things are great you know like we got to get involved we got to roll our sleeves up and go you have some imperfect people that are leading so I that's just that issue's been a hot button when I just mentioned it briefly on social media and you know honestly you put something out and 10 million people or watching it and you 40,000 shares in the comments you know like uh oh I stepped on a nerve so while the term is not new it is very much and will always be an issue in the workplace in a leadership content I think the issue I think I think an issue is sometimes when we pontificate from an ivory tower that work as this way or that way it doesn't really reflect the realities of the day to day of somebody who does have a shitty manager and that's why it's such a big a big problem um I have one more I was just looking at your Instagram because now I'm like oh this is this is this is goal but there's one more thing that prompted a thought so the second largest I guess or one of the largest uh post that you made was about promotions and pay raises and I thought back I'll tell you a very brief story so there was a point in my career where um is it not directly tied to this but it's also something that probably happens to people so I wanted to move up to like the next level so I was in sales and I was selling to small business and I wanted to move to mid-market and like the the manager was on board and was killing the numbers and my director was on board and if I had moved internally to the organization uh I would have gotten like an x percent paid bump however if I had been recruited from outside the organization I would have been making like 10 or 15 thousand dollars more as opposed to an internal uh an internal uh promotion for the exact same job so what ended up happening is my director said give me your resignation and I'll hire you externally it was like pure workplace BS politics like so stupid so stupid anyway it happened got the pay bump it was it was great you know career progress from there but there's so much BS incorporate America that people deal with that I don't think the average person knows what to do about like that was a mentor the director was a mentor to me he guided me through this process but so many people get screwed basically and all the time the the other thing that I see people get screwed with is if you try and move up in a company you'll get more money if you go somewhere else sometimes as opposed to staying in the company and also I think the post that went viral was promotion without pay so all of these BS politics companies so big half of the company doesn't even know that this is happening in one of the departments all these issues of people are real issues that deal with that people deal with in their careers that impact them financially pick any of the three random examples I just mentioned or the one that really went viral on your Instagram what's your recommendation for people that are stuck in these shitty circumstances I can tell you this if you are being manipulated then that's not going to change and what you've described is manipulation companies are desperate to fill a position they it pay you so they kill up with this promotion we're going to promote you but there's no pay and so it's this it's a manipulative play it is a form of dishonesty simple so if this is happening to you it will continue to so I'm not going to tolerate I would I would get your act together before you can front it meaning have a plan is if you don't have a plan it doesn't it doesn't help you to confront it then you're kicked out on the street so you got to be matured and so I'd build a bridge and if you feel you got a bridge you feel like financially you're okay and you can do this you feel like okay I'm going to line up a couple of things I would confront it once and call it out because I get a lot of time leaders get away with it because we as employees aren't willing to have a difficult conversation because we're scared but if you're going to remove that fear and go I'm not scared and I'm matured I breathe a little bit I think a lot of things can change if we just have a difficult conversation with our leader but they get away with it because we don't challenge them because we're scared they were going to lose our job and so then when you know I'm scared to do that so I put up with it too long and eventually I get to deploy Ryan desperate and then I just leave and I I don't necessarily do what's best for me there changing jobs sometimes is not the best way to move forward and and so it's worthwhile to at least have the difficult conversation without any kind of fear and see if they go you know what you just called me out on this and I feel like a real jerk so I'm not going to do that but left to their own device and you'll say anything about it they get away with it you know and and so that's a slippery slope so that's how I would handle it and then if we have the difficult conversation we call them out on a respectfully and humbly and go this is how I feel about this isn't a feel right and if they if they react to it and they do the right thing right big win there that leaves everybody if they don't react there's your son no I can now I can go and I will not second guess that decision like I just that's my prescription that's the advice I give on the air if somebody called me and asked me that question don't just give up and throw your hands in the air many times leaders are making those decisions because they feel that's all they have or they think it's the best decision and if you just kind of show a little bit of okay you'll do it that's not enough to make them second guess it challenge it and many times you're going to find that they needed to be challenged you know what that is kind of a jerk move I'm not going to do that and many times you're going to find that their hands are tied and they're being told to do that or they don't feel like they have any options at which point you go I don't want to be in an organization like this you know so that's the harsh reality I think that I think that you know everything you want is on the other side of a hard conversation and I think that the everything that you do and and really what I'm trying to do on this podcast is to is to make sure that people don't shrug off opportunity or circumstances in the moment that could seem so innocuous and really not that significant but if you shrug off those opportunities or circumstances repeatedly then you wake up in your 6570 and you've gone your whole career not taking that next step or being okay with more work with less pay or any number of things that basically lead to a mediocre subpar life I don't know please that's what we're trying to you're a hundred percent right settling uh emotionally settling mentally settling professionally you will settle you will actually go like this it's settled to the settled to the bottom just like if I put a bunch of dirt in a jimasa jar right now full of water that dirt is going to settle at the bottom and I feel like that that kind of this movement right here I can see that dirt if you will that is moving around a little bit and that that's what down yeah I think that that's you know now let me say this on the other converse side it working through difficult situations and working through a difficult leader and and and kind of being the bigger person and realizing this is not enough to push me out this is probably it might feel good emotionally but it's not necessarily good on this side there's some maturity there too to go all right I'm just gonna have to deal with that because we deal with difficult family members that takes giving so that you know being mature and pressing through difficult leaders or difficult situations doesn't mean you're settling so you've got to have the maturity and know the difference what is settling versus what is you know maturing and and being resilient and rising above there's a there's a difference there I just wanted to point that out what we're describing is is not settling it's okay can I work my way through it and and sometimes I got to move on and sometimes I need to stay and and be okay with it yeah but the maturity is you know to understand which which there's two options always and you have to and and by the way if you apply some of of your discernment and and looking at situations through multiple lenses again that's an applicable skill set that can that can really help improve your life across exactly right it allows us to get out of the presence got and look yeah the future and go all right I've got to have always this juxtaposition between what's the right thing to do in the now that sets me up for the next not just be like now now now I feel this way I feel this way we'll get over it buttercup you know art ship and adversity is the fire that that forges the steel and and understand the blacksmith man they take an inanimate piece of iron stick in the fire and then pull it out and beat the ever living crap out of it and repeat repeat repeat fire beating fire beating fire beating on the other end of it is a really awesome usable tool so I just I always want to point out that the exit the hitting the exit ramp sometimes is the worst thing you can do you know understand that we're all forged by the fire in the pounding and there it would know I have the maturity to realize oh this is a season of forging and pounding and and on the other side of this I'm I'm really going to be about I love that all right Ken where should people reach out to you now you're going to have a whole bunch of people calling in trying to fix their life fix their business so where are they going to go yeah Ken Coleman dot com is is just an easy place to go to see where the show is you can get the Ken Coleman show wherever you listen to podcasts it's also on YouTube and there's phone numbers and ways for you to email your question in and all that so that in Colbert dot com is just the easiest place to connect and social and all that stuff amazing and like honestly man congratulations on the work that you do because again live live coaching is not easy so anybody who's listening to this go try and stump Ken go try and give him your your best or your worst question because again you probably follow a lot of people you have all these people you look up to that you learn from but to be able to do it live in real time is a whole other level so I think that that's super admirable yeah no no seriously um okay one last one last thought or one last piece of wisdom or advice uh something that you want to leave the audience with that you would tell your younger self I don't think I would tell my younger self anything because I don't want to give my younger self a cheat code I don't want to give my younger self the benefit of shortcut uh and I and I I've answered that question a lot I've never answered it that way and I'm just in a season right now where I believe that's my answer and I'm not trying to be a contrarian to the question I because I think that's the answer I think that the struggle is what gives us the strength and I just turned 50 and Lord willing I'm not a or close to done I am sitting here today talking to you believe me in my 50s and 60s the next 20 years will be my greatest impact I can't tell you what that is I've learned a long time ago to stop trying to predict it or plan it I'm on the right path but I sit here today looking at you as a 50 year old saying I wouldn't tell my 20 year old self anything other than maybe keep on keeping on maybe that's what I I wouldn't give advice I would just say keep on keeping on I've managed to do that but I I just believe it all the struggles and I could tell you struggle after struggle after struggle after struggle after struggle in my personal life with my family in my physical life my professional life mental I could I could I could tell you some amazing battle stories and every one of those were storms that I've been able to walk through and as a result that struggle has given me the strength to do what I'm uniquely wired to do now and the struggles I face tomorrow set me up for the strength that I need five years from now 10 years out and so that's my real answer I I would just go you got a kid you bonk keeping on I know extra shortcuts because that would rob me of the struggle and I think we have gotten way out of whack in this country as parents and I'll raise my hand to I don't want to pick on anybody I'm talking to me I don't way anybody get offended let me provoke you to say not that they'll get offended my generation we've been terrible at it I'm raising three Gen Z teenagers and I could tell you that if I were to do anything over again I would have let them struggle more it is the nature of parenting to remove the struggle and now we've been marketed to remove the struggle remove the struggle safety safety safety safety and I think it is the experience with danger and failure that ultimately shapes us the best