Jeremy Miner - Sales Training Expert | The Sales Framework That Closes 93% More Deals

In psychology, you are taught that every human being has belief systems. We call those frames. I always ask people, is selling something that you like do to people or is selling something you do for people? See the shift there. This is Jeremy Minor, one of the highest earning sales professionals in the world. Over $2 billion in sales, not by talking more, but by listening better. At 20, he was living paycheck to paycheck. At 30, he was leading the quiet revolution in sales. What would be the strategy for B2B or B2C to start to uncover those things? It's how you frame the questions and it's how you ask them your tone. You can steal somebody's content, which you can never steal their experience. Most salespeople that sell in Zoom make some pretty critical mistakes. They're really bad. Turning outdated high-pressure tactics into something elegant, human, and wildly effective. Today, he teaches the biggest brands how to sell without selling. But it all started with a simple realization. The best salespeople don't convince, they get their prospects to convince themselves. If you're on Zoom and they only see up here and they can't see any of this, subconsciously you're communicating to them that you might be hiding something. You want to see Navel up. We call this the trust zone. Success is simply a choice. You decide if you're going to be successful or not. Nobody forces you to be unsuccessful. Where did your stories start? All the things you struggled with in sales. All the sales gigs didn't go so well. And then how did it eventually turn out to any behavior? I went to school to become a psychologist or psychiatrist. I was always fascinated with the human brain and why people do the things they do. Why does somebody say no, competitive? Why does somebody say yes? What's going on up here? This is what I'm always curious about. It's fascinating to me. I went the psychologist route because I didn't want to go to medical school for eight years. Psychiatrists, you have to go eight years of school because you have to prescribe depression, medication, all that kind of crazy stuff. And so in psychology, you're taught that every human being has belief systems. We call those frames. You ever heard like framing or reframing from NLP? I've heard it from Warren Klaaf. Okay. Yeah, I've read one of his books. The picture, anything. I like that book. It's a really good book. He's status framing. I like that. So the word framing and reframing, you know, it wouldn't come from Warren. He knows that. It wouldn't come from NLP. It actually comes from Sigmund Freud. It comes from the Milton Erickson. It comes from Erick Erickson. You're talking about like psychologists, you know, hundred, hundred and twenty years ago. You know, like the Sigmund Freud, let's say if I, you have a patient. And your patient has a belief system that they want to end their life. I'm going to commit suicide. That's their belief system. So how do you take them out of that belief system? That's called a D frame. Okay. D frame. I'm taking them out of their current way of thinking. Okay. And then I'm going to reframe them into a new belief system or a new frame. So this is what I've been taught in school, like at a high level. And I took it a lot more seriously, probably than most of the students did. I was like buying every course I could get. I was going to like seminars on the weekends, you know, like to learn this stuff. Because it fascinated with me. And I got married. I'm divorced now. But I got married when I was like twenty one. I was still in school. And I was playing baseball as well. And I'm like, I have a kid on the way. So I'm like, oh gosh, I'm going to make money. And so I went to this like recruiting meeting long story short. And I got hired. It's straight commission. So they just hire everybody. They give you your body and a pulse. Like hired, you know, there's like 300 people there. 300 people get hired. What kind of home security systems, like alarms. So I was going to school in Utah. And that's a, that's a big industry. The door to door space there. And so they shipped me up to like boys. I had to go that summer. And, you know, first like six, eight weeks, I was really, really bad. And I was just falling their scripts. They gave us a couple of books by the sales gurus. And, you know, they were like, hey, sales is a numbers game. The cliche, you know, always be closing. You know, you know, buyers are liars. It's the whole thing. And they would say like, you know, you got to, you got to talk to, you got to knock on 100 doors to make one sale. That was their thing. And I'm just like, but why? So my mind is like, I'm always questioning everything. I'm like, well, why do I have to talk to, you know, 30 people to close one deal? Why can't I talk to 10 people and close eight days? Like I don't understand. So this way my mind thinks. So after doing their approach like six, seven weeks, I'm like, okay, that's really sucks. Like there's a lot of rejection. I'm not making hardly any sales, not making any money. Like, I've got to take, because it's always not on me. Like, this doesn't make any sense. Like, I could literally see the way they would have you talk at the beginning was triggering the prospect to go into fight or flat mode. See, this is the way my brain is. I think I'm like, I see. And so of course, we're studying the nervous system. So I can see their nervous system getting triggered by what I'm saying. So I had probably an unfair advantage over most sales people. Because I just knew like, oh, I could see by their tonality that they're uncertain there. I could see by their nervous system. I just triggered them by what I was taught to say. So I'm starting to apply what I'm what I'm learning here, you know, psychology wise. And low and behold, they're making a lot of sales. Like a lot of sales. And that first share I finished the top salesperson in that company. There was like, there was only like 300 salespeople there. But like, people had been there for years. You know, and I like, they're like, who's this kid? Like, where did this kid come from? And that's kind of the start of it. And then I got into, so I did that for five years with a company that's now called Vivint. If you've ever, if you're watching the Utah Jazz, they play in the Vivid Center. So the huge company now. And then I got into B2B enterprise sales and that relief services did well there. Then I got into network marketing. Good well there. And then got into selling like high ticket financial events. You know, and had 18 year sales career and retired in 2018. And then started seven level in 2019. Here we are. So these these principles, they worked across every industry. Well, apparently. Yeah. So I mean, because it works with human behavior, right? So when you're talking, you know, people are like, will it work for what I sell? Well, it only work if it you talk with humans, right? Because see, the way I look at sales is a little bit different. You know, I always ask people, is selling something that you do like due to people? Or is selling something you do for people? See the shift there. Okay. I'm doing it for them because if I can't communicate and frame my message the best, that means their problems stay the same and nothing ever changes when they don't buy. They don't get what they want. Okay. So that's my responsibility as a salesperson. So I'm doing it for them. Okay. I'm not doing it to them. And I think most salespeople have been taught. It's not their fault, but it is their problem. Most salespeople have been taught that you're doing this to the person like you're trying to manipulate them. You're trying to, you know, pressure them so you can make money and that's why they stay average. I'm doing it for them. Okay. So, you know, big, I'm a big fan of Tony Robbins. And now, you know, me and Kayla went to his date with Destiny event actually here in Florida back in December. Make sure I'm correct. That was one of the first influences. Tony Robbins. Yeah. I mean, I've seen him on YouTube before, but I've never been to one of his events until. Oh, so like very recently. Very recently. Yeah. But he influenced me from the very beginning because I remember getting into a van one night about two months in when I was selling my first year. And I'd made zero sales that day. So, I made zero dollars. And my manager, he, you know, his name is X-Aing. And this is a curly blender puts in the CD. You know, they had the CDs back then. You know, this is like 22 years ago, 24 years ago. And Tony Robbins, I still remember it. He said, you will fail. For the simple reason you don't learn the right skills necessary to see like you will fail if you don't learn the right skills. And I'm like, I gotta learn some skills, you know. Because have you ever wondered why, you know, sales people selling the same thing, okay, same price points, you know, same prospects using the same script. How do they get completely different results? I could never figure it out. And most people couldn't. It's, they're doing the same thing, but it's how they're asking the questions. It's how they're coming across triggering the nervous system, getting them to let their guard down. Because I can say the same things on a script, but I can get a completely different result based on my tonality. That's a whole another story. But going back to the Tony Robbins. So what I started to learn is that there's this emotional connection that has to happen, okay. And I remember when I got into, and I started mastering that on the doors, like I never had people that slammed the door on my face. Because then you had to get them to let their guard down really, really quickly, okay. Disarming techniques. And so when I got into B2B Enterprise, you're talking about, I went from selling consumers. You get a free alarm system, you pay $100 to get it activated, and then you pay like, you know, 50 or 60 bucks a month. To then, like I'm calling, you know, Fortune 1000 companies, you know, and I'm closing like $5 million deals. So it was a different ball game, but the principles were the same to me. So any industry I sold in, all I needed to know were answers to these questions. So I'd go in that get interviewed by the VP of sales or the chief sales officer. And it would be like, what are the prospects problems that you talked to? What are their five top problems that your thing solves? Okay, so I got that and know what those are. Then I need to understand what are the consequences to the prospect if those don't get solved. And then I need to understand, how does your solution solve those? Once I understood those three things, it's easy to write the questions you need to ask for that industry. Now, I'm a big believer in scripts, but more like a framework, right? So like, you know, Hollywood actors and actresses, everything they say is 100% scripted. Of course. Does it sound scripted? No. No, exactly, because their body language and their tonality and their facial expressions, okay? So you have to have a sales script, a framework, but you're not setting there reading the script like a monotone robot, because that's going to sound awkward, right? So you've got to be able to know the psychology behind why you're asking these questions in the first place, that way when the prospect answers your questions, you have to immediately know how to tweak the next questions based off their answers. And if you don't, they don't feel like you understand them. And if they don't feel like you understand them, they're going to stay surface level, they're not going to buy. So Tony Robbins talks a lot about this, this emotional connection, I like to take it a step further. And in order to influence at the highest level, you have to master how to emotionally connect with that human being, whether you're selling one to one or one to, you know, eight decision makers or one to a thousand on a stage, where they feel like you understand their needs or desires, even their fears without buying into their story. Okay, now what's prospect stories? I need to think it over, that's a story. We don't have the funding now, that's a story. So I can't buy into that story, because if I buy into that story, I offer the no value, because they don't buy, I don't solve their problems, I don't get them where they want to go. But I have to emotionally connect with them. And I remember when I got into B2B, they're like, you don't understand Jeremy, like, you know, these prospects, they just want facts, you know, they're talking about their finance, teams, just figures. And I'm like, oh, okay, so what you're saying is you guys haven't learned yet how to get them to let their guard down, where they feel comfortable to open up to you and tell you what the real problems are. If you think about everyone you're selling to at the end of the day, they're all humans. They're all worried about keeping their job, impressing their boss, getting a bonus, getting a raise, getting a promotion. And anything they're buying from you, in theory, can accomplish that to some degree. So how do you tie back into what they care about? And also, it's interesting. When I was in sales, we were kind of at a surface level knew that if you actually solved the person problems, they would champion you to solve the company problems. But to shorten the sales cycle, it was always about finding intent. So it was always about finding somebody that was already looking for your solution as opposed to going in cold. I've never heard of using like a human connection to shorten a sales cycle, which makes it makes a ton of sense when you think about it like that, because we were always told just like if you focus on properly qualifying the leads. But you're laughing. Don't tell me they taught you band. Yes. Oh, God. So here's my problem, because they try to teach me band when I got into B2B and I'm like, I guess so, so many holes through that. I'm like, you're asking them what their budget is in the first five minutes of a conversation before they even know what the real problems are. How they know what their budget is for some things they don't even know what needs to be solved. Like you're you're really suggesting that these prospects understand what their real problems are when you first start talking to them. Unlikely, nobody does. They might understand that they have like one problem. That's the problem with with with most sales train is they'll teach you like the prospect tells you a problem and then they start selling to that problem. But the thing is is I prospects don't don't know what they need, right? It's like it's like an analogy of you know, you have this like crazy ass headache one morning, bad migraine. And you're like, I need some medication. I have a headache and you go to the urgent care and they're like, you know, they don't ask any questions like here. Just go take this, right? How do you know that it's actually solving anything? But instead you go to different doctor and she starts asking you some questions about the pain and where you feel the pain and how long you felt the pain and what the pain's preventing you from being able to do. And suddenly her question starts to get you to internalize it. You might have a much bigger problem than the originally thought you had. And she suggests you might want to do a CAT scan and it comes back here, but a tumor is terminal and you got two weeks to live. So see now you start to understand what your real problems are. Okay, but most sales people, I'll give you an example. There's one of our newer clients that I went and did a workshop for them. A couple weeks ago in California, they're big, that precious metals still are like gold and silver. And their sales people like a prospect would would come in. And most of their prospects are usually a little bit older, you know, 50s, 60s. They're like Armageddon, you know, the skies, you know, the world is ending. Maybe it is. I know I need to protect everything with gold. Yeah. And so their big thing is they would come in and they said, well, hey, what's causing you to look at precious metals? That was their first question. And like, well, I want to hedge against inflation. And they're like, well, let me show you how we do that. So they give them a problem and they sell that problem. I'm like, well, what happens though? If they go home that night and they turn on Fox News and Fox is like, inflation's going down, the new presidents doing a really good job, the new administration's getting everything down. Well, now they're like, well, maybe I don't need gold because inflation's going down. And then you lost the deal because you tried to sell to one problem. But I want to build a huge gap. I don't want to help them find just this one problem they think they have. I want to help them find two or three or four or five other problems they didn't realize they had. Now the gap's so big that even if they go in and turn on the TV and it says inflation's going down, there's five other reasons why they want to change. They're still buying. That's a difference. What would be the strategy for B2B or B2C to start to uncover those things outside of building true report, not like surface levels? It's not just how you, it's how you frame the questions and it's how you ask them your tone. That's going to determine if you see doubt or not in the process because if I'm like, what's some, some surface level consultative questions? Can you tell me some of your challenges, Mr. Prospect? Can you tell me two problems that keep you awake at night? Can you, can you tell me some issues you're having? Your prospects know where those questions lead. Especially in B2B, every company asks the same generic surface level questions. That's why most of them give you vague generalized surface level answers back. I just need to reframe that question and I might say, you've been with XYZ company the last four years. What's causing you to feel like you might want to look at someone else? See, rather than me saying, what are your challenges? See how I reframed. I'm basically asked that same question, but I reframed it a different way. And the prospect doesn't recognize that pattern. See, our brains are human beings. We recognize patterns. And so if you ask the same type of questions that most salespeople are asking them, they recognize the pattern. And that's why they stay serviceable. But with the way I frame that question, and I would probably make it more specific, depending on who I'm talking to, what I'm selling. That's a generic version. So you've been with XYZ company the last five years. I mean, they're fairly decent. I mean, what's causing you to feel like you might want to look at something else? Well, you know, we like them, but, and now they start to tell me what they don't like. Because of how I frame that question, the nice to the pattern. That makes sense. It makes a ton of sense. But you're also very purposeful with your tonality and your inflection and your pauses. So, and in a real sales situation, it's going to be a little bit different there. I'm kind of telling everybody what to do in exaggerating that. But your tone is there to see doubt with what they have or don't have that triggers their nervous system to be like, oh, maybe we don't, maybe we do have a problem with that. But I can see that with my doubt. There's five types of tonality you have to master. If you want to be top 1% in sales influence persuasion, you get a master the curious tone. Let's say if I have a market agency. So walk me through. What do you guys do to generate new leads and clients now? That's a curious tone. There's a confused tone. Now, why would I use a confused tone? I'm not saying you've got dementia confused. I don't know how this thing works. But let's say if a prospect says something like, oh, gosh, I'm feeling so much pressure with this XYZ problem. Pressure? Or, oh, how, how do you mean by pressure? I'm confused. Now, what that does subconsciously is their brain immediately says to them, oh, he didn't understand what I meant by that. I need to explain that better. And you see how they now they start to open up. Well, what I mean by pressure is and that they start to tell you. See, the two biggest emotional drivers that causes a human being to want to change are pain and the fear of future pain. Pleasure is a distant third. Most people don't just change because they want something cool. It's pain of their current state or past history and then getting them to feel a fear that this pain is going to keep going or could happen in the future. And that causes them to feel urgency to want to do something about it and change. That's how I could speed up my sales cycles, right? Then you have like a challenging tone. You know, I'm not going to do that in the first part of the conversation because I don't have much trust or credibility. But later on, I can challenge him or something. What happens if this doesn't actually get solved? Okay. That's generic. And then I have a concerned tone and tone that shows empathy. What's really holding you back? What's really holding you back, John? You know, if they're not moving forward. And then I have a playful tone, right? Let's say if I sold life insurance and, you know, that's an industry where the male will be like, oh, I don't know. I'll just, you know, I'll just let my wife, you know, show how to deal with that with her new husband that she marries. You know, and they kind of blow off. Like it's like an objection. So how am I going to get that prospect to lower their guard? I might lean in back. What's going on, man? Is she already looking to replace you? What's going on over there, man? Oh, no, she's not looking to replace me. Well, I don't want you to sleep it on the couch tonight if she heard you say that. No seriousness, though. How many months would she be able to pay for the house without your income? To the tone shift. Yeah. So you may play real tone. And then I go into like that serious, like, I'm concerned for your tone because I am. Remember, I'm doing it for them, not to them. But the playful tone that gets into laugh, I'm doing that for a, I'm doing that to disarm them because it releases dopamine in their brain. It's a disorder. It just disarms them. That their guard comes down, right? And remember, I'm not doing that to them. I'm doing it for them because if I can't get them to let their guard down, they don't become open to what I'm offering. And I'm the one that's there to solve their problems. You know, when I think about sort of your methodology, you combine the behavioral with the very, very tactical. But if you look at other, you mentioned Tony Robbins. I know you've spoken about NLP before. You're talking about tonality and pausing. What other behavioral components or psychological components are valid? And is there any validity in NLP or any of these others? Yeah, for sure. But what is it? A lot of that is used for more stage selling. But it's, it's, see, a lot of people like they get this concept that if I say the words, it should work. But it's not necessarily how you say it. You say the words, the tonality. So any pq is my methodology. The N stands for neuro, which stands for nervous system. Okay. So if I, if I trigger the prospects, you know, into fight or fight mode, their nervous system is up. The guard is up. So the N stands for nervous system. E emotional connection. Okay. If I can't connect with them emotionally, or they feel like I understand them more than their best friend, you know, I'm at a disadvantage. So how do I do that? Okay. It's, it's the tonality. It's my body language. It's even my facial expressions. Because your facial expressions, I always say are the remote control to your, the same called your tone. Try having a confused tone with the straight face. You're really hard to do that, right? So you can't do that. So even if I'm on the phone and they can't see me, does my body language affect this? Yeah, it does. Because if I'm just sitting there in the chair or I'm standing up like motionless when I'm talking, I'm going to say I'm more like a monotone robot. I always say monotone body language equals monotone tonality. And so many salespeople do that, especially if they call call because they just sit there. It's like, they sound like telemarketers, you know, the p stands for persuasion and the q stands for questioning. So any methodology that has to do with the emotional connection, the nervous system, like NLP, Tony Robbins teaches a lot about this. I don't, I can't remember his methodology, what he's called. Those type of things are going to influence the prospects and get them into an emotional state, a bind state. And that suite is a success story partner. Now, what does the future hole for business? 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Just go to indeed.com slash Clary right now and support our show by saying you heard about indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash Clary, the terms and conditions apply if you're hiring indeed is all you need. So I've always, I remember, I can't remember who told me this. It was one of my, it was one of the people that hired me and I was really young. And he said a salesperson either has to be really good at cold calling or be really good at closing. But they can't be, they can't be the relationship builder in between because that's not useful to me. And I, that just stuck in my head. It's like it's like you have to be either really good at getting somebody to have a conversation who you've never spoken to or taking them over the finish line at the end. That was the thought process. It's a, it's a jacked thought process. It is a jacked thought process. That's transactional selling. It was all closing starts from the very first words at your mouth. So this is my question because from the world that I came from, the person who closes is the account manager. You have the SDR or the BDR. So it's not even the same person. So but the regardless. Well, the SDR is closing them on the appointment. Yes. It's just a mini close. Mini close. So for the first call, for to open up the relationship and the conversation, how do you disarm when the person's never heard of you before? It's, well, it's all in your tonality. So most salespeople that cold call have been taught to do a couple of different things. There's the approach of, hey, is this George? Hey, George is Jeremy Minor with XYZ company. Hey, listen, the reason I called you was, that's the one approach, or hey, is this George? Hey, George, hey, hey, nice to meet you. This is a call call. I just wanted to let you know this is a call call. Can I have like 20 cents a year time? And if what I say does resonate, we'll just hang up the phone. That's like the second approach. Those typically are the two approaches or some modification. I would say the second approach is a little bit better than the first. We're just going to play the numbers game. Because staying it's a call call, especially how you say that doesn't really work that well with most people. Okay. So remember, what's the first thing I have to do? I have to get them to let their guard down. I have to interrupt their pattern. Because remember, human beings, we recognize patterns instantly. Okay. We recognize patterns in your voice. So most salespeople sound one of three tones. They sound really, really excited. Like, hey, how's it going? I'm really, you know, too enthusiastic. What's that going to do? That's going to trigger sales resistance. Okay. Because everybody recognizes that pattern. Or I'm going to sound like a telemarketer. And I'm going to sound monotone when I talk to you like this. Like I'm reading from a script, which instantly is going to trigger you. Because you're used to telemarketing calls. Or I'm going to sound really timid like a nervous, right? And when I'm nervous on the phone, you're triggering their nervous system to not trust you. Because if you're nervous, that means you're hiding something. That makes sense. So when I come in, I want them to, I want, I have to use a familiar tone. Okay. You ever going to call from someone like, hey, it's, it's Amy. Amy Smith, how are you? Would you say, who is this? You're like, I'm good. How are you? I would be confused. I think I know her. Yeah. Your brain is like, who's Amy Smith? How do I know Amy Smith? See, she's just bought time now because she sounds familiar. Okay. So that's a pattern rubbed. Okay. So usually I would be holding, you know, papers or some type of papers when you're calling because you're like holding the papers like you're going through them because you're interrupting the pattern. They're not used to that. Like they're hearing a sound on the telephone. Okay. I stumbled into that approach when I get into enterprise. I remember holding papers one day like just going through something and like the prospect seemed like to stay on way longer. But it was just noise. It's like interrupting. Yeah. Because they're just thinking about what. What am I holding? What am I holding about them? So most salespeople, they do this mistake like, hey, is this George or hey, is this Amy? That implies that you don't know them because you would hear there. You would recognize your voice. So right when the process of answers, I'm like, John, hey, it's, it's James, James Taylor with XYZ company. I'm holding a copy of your blank. I was wondering if you could possibly help me out for a moment. Now depending on the industry would depend on what I'm holding. Okay. If I'm, let's say if I'm a real estate agent calling on expired listings, yeah, I'm holding a copy of some old listings on your home at 55, well, Elena's wondering if you could help me out for a moment. Let's say if I sold, oh, let's say I have a marketing agency, I wouldn't say I'm holding something. I might say, yeah, I'm looking at one of your, your last VS cells. And on page four where you were talking about XYZ, I was wondering if you could help me out for a moment. So all I'm doing is triggering curiosity. Okay. That's all I'm doing. I'm using the familiar tone that, yeah, it's James, James Taylor. See the upward inflection. That's a familiar tone. All I'm doing is buying time because now their brain is James Taylor, how do I know James Taylor? They sound familiar. So their guard starts to come down, okay? And then instantly, give me, give me some type of SaaS thing. What could I be holding? What did you sell before in SaaS? What was that product? The first product that I ever sell was VoIP. Okay. VoIP. It was over IPS. So that's kind of out of the picture. It is out of the picture now. I'm trying to think of something new. Well, the last company was broadcast software. Okay. What could they be holding in their hand that could trigger some curiosity? See if I were to chat GTP, I could be like, I sell, you know, voice broadcasting. What are two or three problems that I could print off a document, you know, about that company that would trigger curiosity? Not testimonials, not white papers that doesn't trigger curiosity. Something that, you know, let's say if I'm a commercial, if I'm selling commercial insurance to... I was looking at a transcript of your last broadcast and we were looking at some of the commercial breaks and I was looking at some transcripts from a couple of your last broadcasts. I was wondering if you could possibly help me out for a moment. Yeah. I think it's going to be like, what do you mean broadcasts? How do you mean? They think like, what the hell happened in our last broadcasts? Yeah. Prigring curiosity. Yeah. Instantly. Okay. Rather than, hi, my name is, I'm with Xweight, the reason I called to us, doesn't work. Now they're stressed out. They're stressed out but not at you. They're stressed out. They screwed up. Yes. And then I would say, yeah, I'm not even sure if it makes sense for us to talk. So I'm pushing them away now. Remember, my first job, I have zero trust credibility with this person. They don't know who I am. My first job is to get them let their guard down. So then it's like, yeah, I don't even sure if it makes sense for us to talk. I called to see who would be responsible for like looking at any possible hidden gaps in your, what, in your blank that could be causing you guys to blank consequence. So let's go back to the broadcast. Any possible hidden gaps in your broadcasting? I need something. What would you, what would, oh, so I would say, well, if any hidden gaps in your, what, in your, in your advertising and sponsorships, in your advertising and, and, and some of your sponsorships that could be causing you guys to lose revenue that you could be making. Who should I be talking to about that that could be, so I'm neutral, that could be causing you guys to lose like revenue every month. Who should I be talking to? See, on doing string curiosity there, okay, I'm triggering engagement completely there. I'm interrupting the pattern of the familiar tone. So everything I did there is layered. So what we teach when we teach companies a co-call is we haven't go to chat GTP and, you know, I sell this, the problems I solve are this, this and this. What could I print off that would trigger this prospect to, you know, be curious when I called? I know, chat to people, give them like 50 different things. Now some of them are crap, they'll be like, primal of testimonials. No, that's, they don't care about your testimonies, they don't know who you are. You have it that alone with that. So all the things that I just mentioned, like we would bring those up in the sales conversations already, but basically the software, it put lower thirds on, it allowed people to put lower thirds, little bars on the bottom of their screen and interact with their viewers, but then also there's room for sponsorship. Yeah, and they can make more money that way. That was one of the things. Yeah, okay. So yeah, so chat to people will give you some different ideas. Now some of them, like I said, are not good, but it's, it's just interesting how easy co-calling becomes when you learn how to get them to let their guard down. And they might even come back and say, well, you know, we already have some for that. I figured you, I figured you did it and just see, you know, I'm not quite sure we can even help you. Yeah. See now I'm going to, I'm, they don't know what to do with that pattern because most of them like, oh, well, they're a good company, but people always come to us because like, they just start arguing like it's over. So I'm like, oh, yeah, and just see, you know, I'm not quite sure we can even help you. You know, we'd have to know more about X and Y and Z and kind of the results you're getting from that because maybe you're better off staying with who you already have. Who do you guys actually use? And then I'm back in the conversation. So I'm all I'm doing is I'm getting them to let their guard down. I'm deframing them and I'm starting to reframe them into new belief systems. And I think that I just want to sort of reiterate how, um, forget how powerful this idea is, but also the fact that in like 30 seconds, I can think of maybe a kind of a half ass way to build my product into this system when software for broadcasters, complete SaaS product is probably not the easiest thing to print off stuff to mess around. But the point is if you put a like a second of thought with chat, you'll figure out something that you can use for your industry every we do is, I mean, we there's a hunt according to Forbes, there's 163 different verticals in the world. Now there's subcategories of all each of those, like home improvement would be like cabinets, doors, windows, siding, awnings, you know, carpet, you know, there's 75 things. You train every industry at this point. And so, you know, with CHGP, you literally like, you can find papers like, you know, life insurance, if it's, you know, it could be solar, it could, it's anything, like it's more on the B2B side of your colon, you don't call as much on a two consumers, you do a little bit, but most of the colon is on the B2B side. Tell me this couldn't work. If you walked up to somebody's door and you had some papers in your hand and you're selling solar or alarm system, sure, oh sure, it's interrupting the pattern. Thousand percent. They're going to be like, wait, what the hell? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I'm holding a copy of your neighbor's like, you tell the buzzers, I wonder if you can help me out for a moment. We teach the door approach a little bit different with solar, you know, if they're on the doors, you know, most of the like, you know, hey, are you the homeowner here? Great. Hey, how are you doing today? And they're like, I'm good. What's this all about? Like, you're instantly triggering resistance, like, because they know you're genuinely not interested in how they're damaged. They're going. They're going. Exactly. Yeah. You can act like confused like you can't hear them and there's a come to the door, you know, you, I would always lean in and I'd be like, yeah, are you guys the property owners here? Like, something was wrong or like, and I, you know, there's a whole lot with interrupting the pattern and door to door. Like, I used to wear, I think a lot of people are doing this now because they've heard me say it on it, you know, social media, but I, like, like, you're talking 22 years ago, I would wear a construction vest like the orange ones or the lime green ones. And I'd have like a tape measure here, right? You know, because you got to measure where the alarm system is going to go. And then I'd have like, you know, old grandpa, like new balance, white shoes, you know, you know, the, the ID badge that all the door says people wear here. I'm like, why would you wear that? You might as well just put on your head, I'm a salesperson. That's what that means. Like everybody knows if you have an ID that you're trying to sell them. So I would just put it in my pocket. I'm like, well, I don't understand like, what are we doing here? It was weird. And I'd have like, I'd have like leather gloves like tied there to the key chain. So they did, they thought, like, and I'd have like a, like a, uh, one of those metal clipboards with the contracts in it, like literally, and people came to the door. They didn't know if I was a construction worker, they didn't know if I was like reading the meter to their guard was already down. Yeah. It's, you know, it's not hard to, I mean, for, well, I don't know, to me, it's like, this is so easy. So you have to be trying to explain something to me. Why everything you're saying makes sense in enterprise, um, I think they're a little bit better than average. I think that some of the most like bleeding enterprise companies, they probably bring in guys like you to teach it. It depends. Most of them have internal, uh, sales train and it really depends on the company. If I was going to rank sales training, I'd put you like at the top. Everything you're saying makes tons of sense for you at the top. And then I would think that the things that I had learned in my career, like the challenger is not bad, still better than like car salesmen, ABC. But that ABC still exists and some of the people on other's media are very big sales trainers. It's sort of pushed this ABC. And I don't understand, first of all, I don't understand how it's effective in 2025. It's a, it's a numbers game. It's like playing golf. You hit one really good shot. Yeah. It's like this, this adrenaline rush. Yeah. It's the same thing. It's sales. You, you suck like that are 17 holes. And then you make that one sale, so you're like, it's a numbers game and you keep this like, you see the thing? I mean, the, the reason why we have grown so rapidly, like we just got ranked as the largest business to consumer sales training company in the world, based on, based on annual revenues, not, not grandma saying it, fourth largest in the B2B space. And I started flying half years ago, but the reason why is simply because it's, it's a different viewpoint of what selling actually is. It's a, it's almost like a new opportunity in a sense of, it's not like everything else is. Now, there, there's probably some aspects, right? But my, the, the way the methodology is is like, I'm getting their nervous system to let their guard down. If you went to like sales training from anybody, they wouldn't even know what the nervous system does, right? I'm emotionally connecting with them because I understand the psychology behind each stage of the questions. And whatever they tell me, I can instantly tweak the next questions based off what they say, because I understand the psychology behind it. Now, I do believe in scripts and frameworks. So I think you need a framework to follow, but you can't, you've got to be able to know how to tweak the next questions based off what they tell you. Otherwise, you're going to sound scripted, you know, you sound like a robot. Sales isn't something that you're born with. You can train anybody to become a sales person. And unless you are born with advanced question skills out of your mother's womb, yes, or, you know, are you born with advanced tonality skills or advanced objection handling or prevention skills? No, those are acquired skills, like nobody is born, the natural born salesperson. I think a lot of people think that if you're born and you like to talk a lot, the gift of the gap is the, the problem with that is that most salespeople that talk a lot are pretty much average because you just talking is not selling, like, you know, the adage telling is not selling. Like, you know, a lot of sales training would be like, you should, you know, they should be talking 70% of the time you should be talking 30. I'm going to say it's probably 90, 10, like when I was in sales calls or, you know, sales appointments in person or virtually whatever, they didn't really know anything about me. They're probably talking 95% of the time, but I controlled the whole frame of that conversation where people like to talk about themselves, right, but you have to control that conversation where they feel like they're in control, but you're really facilitating the whole thing. They don't even feel like they're talking to a salesperson. That's when you start to master sales, when they don't even feel like they're, when they feel like you are doing them a favor by allowing them to pay you to solve their problems. That's when you're starting to get good influence. Have you looked at some of these tools that, like, measure the top, like, gong and stuff like that? Have you looked at some of these? We have. We've actually met the COGong. What's the data? The, like, gong in these platforms have reached out to us to do some stuff. So we're actually in negotiations with two of them right now. Yeah, because most of them just have like a clunky thing, like, oh, you know, you know, because the AI will, like, so I think about gong because it measures talk time. And it's supposed to show, like, well, hey, listen, sales rep, you were talking way too much. And we know statistically, if you speak for less than 10% of the conversation, that's a good start. But it doesn't really show the, see, that's, it's just too generic. Like, you need to talk less. Okay. Thanks for the tips there, you know, like, what do I say, though? So we're developing a SaaS AI platform with two different companies right now that actually reads the tonality of the salesperson based off what I train. It reads the tonality of the prospect in real time. So if you're on the phone or virtually in real time, it will tell you your prospect here sounds uncertain. You need to ask this question now, like literally, it's basically like a chat GTP with my brain. So we've already crammed like 35,000 plus hours of my training into it. And so it's already reading my mind and we'll keep doing that. So this is going to be launching in 2025. Very cool. It's really cool. That's very cool. I did not have that when I started. I'm excited. I know. But it won't be like a chat GTP where just answers it in type. It'll actually pull up, you know, the prompt or pull up like a training like I sell, you know, I sell IT consulting to these type of companies. What would Jeremy say and what tonality would he use when he called this type of sea level executive to get them to let their guard down in the first 30 seconds? And then it will pull up training. I've already done on that or basically read my mind and my avatar pose up like me pose up not just like words because you can't, you can't master sound by reading words. It's like you're trying to master anything by reading books. You can never master anything by reading books. Can you imagine a neurosurgeon master brain surgeon by reading book? No, no. I'll give you an interesting thing about the brain. What's your favorite song like if I said, hey, what's your favorite song that you could pretty much sing word for word down the road you're cruising, you know, I could, there's always a song like I could do I could do to I could do like something by biggie or I could do like hotel California. Okay, so let's say hotel. Yeah. Okay. Seeing that song, you know, every single word, the average song has about 330, 330 words on average. What's your favorite book? Favorite. Like birth. Most favorite book you've ever read. You might have read it multiple times. I would say, I would say atomic habits. Yeah. Okay. I like that book. That's a great book. Average book has about 330 words on one page. Average song has about 330 words in the song. Can you tell me one page you could cite word for word in that book? No. Yeah, you can cite a song that has the same amount of words. Why? I don't know. Because your brain recognizes patterns and your brain can retain the melody and tonality of the song. That's what your brain remembers, the tonality and the melody. Your brain can't remember the words in a book. It's your just words. There's no melody or tone. Does that make sense? It makes a ton of sense. But it makes that's why you never master anything from reading books because you can't remember it within within two days of reading a book. Your brain retains 19%, within one week, less than 9%, within one month, 2.7 to 2.9%. You can't retain anything from reading books. That's why when you get trained, you have to get trained, you know, video training, you know, helps you retain because you hear, you can see, you can hear, you pick up the nuances. In-person stuff is good if you can go back and watch it several times, but you'll never master sales percentage influence already in books. Like an overview, like it's just starting you on that journey, but you're still dabbling if you're just reading books. I just want to take a second and thank Cornbread Ham for supporting today's episode. Now Cornbread Ham CBD gummies have been this really nice addition to my wellness toolkit. 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That's cornbreadhamp.com slash success code success for 30% off your first order of these amazing gummies. The HubSpot podcast network is a success story partner. Now if you like success story, you're going to love other podcasts in the HubSpot podcast network. One of my personal favorites is eye digress hosted by my boy Troy Sandage. It shows under 30 minutes, eye digress helps eliminate complexity, complications and confusion in your business with frameworks and strategies to achieve true, scalable and sustainable success. If you're an entrepreneur building anything, you need to listen to eye digress. This is one of the most useful business podcasts. Trust me, go do yourself a favor and listen to eye digress wherever you get your podcasts. So if you do want to actually take something and really imprint it so that you learn it, well what is it, a combination of everything? Is there one way to learn it that's better than others? I think video training is really good because you constantly have it, but you don't need to get up at three in the morning. We have 37, 39 different sales training programs. Our core program is like a 51 hour course, video training for me, all the NPQ process, role playing, all that kind of stuff. Then we have trainers that have virtual training calls with big groups of sometimes thousands to smaller groups depending on how much they pay for the different training and stuff to reinforce the learning. A lot of it's reinforcement, right? The role playing, the practicing, the rehearsing. It's like being an actor, actress. You've got to rehearse the stuff, right? The reason why Leonardo DiCaprio or Julia Roberts get paid $25 million of films, they rehearse the craft. They have invested more money in their craft. They've hired better acting coaches to an alley coaches. That's why they're ahead of anybody else. The number one thing that's going to determine how much you get paid if you're a salesperson, your skill level. You might want to invest some money in your skill level if you're in sales. Just saying, right? So many salespeople, they just get in there, they just kind of, you know, I call those wingers. I always, well, can I say this? There's four types of salespeople, you should tell everybody. And I think there's four types of people in life, and I'm going to go over this. The first type of salesperson, I call them the wingers, they wing everything. So every prospect they talk to, they say something different, they have no process, they don't know why somebody buys or doesn't buy from them. And when they don't sell a lot, who do they typically blame? The customer. The leads, the boss. Yeah. My leads are all broke. Yeah, yeah. Plus bugs are all mean. They never blame their lack of skill level, right? Where do most of those salespeople go? They eventually get fired. Those are the wingers. Then you have the dabblers. Dabblers are ones who buy a few salesbooks every year, they go to a free event, they, maybe they follow me or some other sales trainer on IG or YouTube, like the, the basic, you know, free content, and they just believe like, hey, you know, if I just get enough reps, if I just stay in long enough, eventually, I'll get good at this. But, you know, that takes years, if not decades, right? And that's where most salespeople are. They're just average. If they ever get good, it's because they play the numbers game. They work 12 to 14 hours a day, numbers game approach, and they eventually burn out. Okay. Now, I'm not saying anybody on here is a dabbler. And then you have those who are the no dollars, they initially invested in sales training. Maybe they get up to multiple six figures a year, then they get good and they start getting a big, you go ahead, big ego, they stop investing their skill level, they stop training and then their income gets capped, right? And then you have those who are committed to mastery, right? They're investing in sales training all of the time because they know the thing that's going to determine how much they make is their skill level, right? So their learning curve is 100x faster, they're not learning from their mistakes. They learn from other people's mistakes, so they don't make the same mistakes themselves. And that's why they're in the top one percent. Now, think about anything in life, any type of profession, okay? You got the wingers, dabblers, no dollars committed master. Who's your favorite athlete? Like pro athlete? Oh. You know, tell me somebody in hockey. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, growing up, I was raised in, I was born in Toronto, raised in Ottawa, so I was a SENS fan. Yeah, so I was an Alfred Senn. Okay. Great. Look at that guy. Was he a winger, dabbler, no dollar or committed master, not even Tom Brady, yeah, winger on, dabbler, Serena Williams, winger, dabbler, who's your favorite, like business leader or thought leader, Seth Godin. Okay. Seth Godin, winger, dabbler, master, admitted to the secret, yeah. Okay. Top psychologist, top doctors, top attorneys, top parents, top bishops of churches, top parents, anything, wingers, dabblers, no dollars committed to see there's something to this thing called commitment to mastery. So that's just life. So you just have to decide, am I going to keep dabbling in sales? Do I think I know where everything, am I just going to wing it, hoping for it works out, or am I going to commit to mastering this? Now, you can't commit to mastering unless you have a plan. You can't commit to mastering unless you're trained by someone who's already mastered the thing you've mastered. A lot of people say, oh, I'm committed to mastery, but that's like somebody saying, like, oh, I'm committed to losing 75 pounds a year, then in January, they go to the gym, they don't have any plan, no trainer, and they walk around to different weight machines, they don't really know what, what's the best one to do, they don't know their nutrition, they don't have somebody training them how to lose that weight that's mastered what they want to do, and that's why they're still dabbing. So, to commit to mastering means that you're hiring people that have already mastered the thing you want to master, and you're learning what not to do, and that's why you don't fail. I think the reason why most people fail in anything is because you don't know what you don't know, and unless you have somebody there that's already mastered, it's like some of these coaching companies are like, we're going to teach you out of scale, and they've never scaled past 25 million themselves, and you're like, I want to scale to 250 million. How is somebody that's never scaled a company 250 million, going to train you how to scale to 250 million? They can't because they don't have the knowledge or experience. I always say, you can steal somebody's content, which you can never steal their experience. You can never steal their wisdom that made that content. And you won't know it like they do, right? You can't take so difficult for them to discern who's real. That's the issue, because there are people that are completely experienced. You always look at the experience, it's just funny, we've had close to 60 sales people now, but we've had about five or six different salespeople leave and start throwing sales training companies, and I'm like, you sold for one year. You did good, and now you're a sales training company, like you just don't have the experience or knowledge that are wisdom because you haven't been around in it. I had an 18 year sales career. And I was ranked in the reps. Yeah, I, not only put in the reps, I was ranked internationally 45th in the entire world selling anything from any industry as far as income I made in that career. After 18 years of that experience of being that high level, I still thought like, whoo, is this really how am I going to be able to do this? If you sell for a couple of years, or you do anything for a couple of years, then you will start your own thing. You just don't have enough experience yet. You're kind of like good, but you're not a master of the craft. What do they say? It takes at least 10,000 hours to really start to master something, and you're starting your own thing with 500 hours? Good luck for your clients. I feel bad for them. I feel bad for them too, but the world is full of people that want to speed run entrepreneurship. And they just want to just, you know, I, here's what I always tell somebody that wants to start their business. I'm like, you need to go work in that field for at least 10 years, at least 10 years. You need the experience. You need the wisdom and that only comes with time. You go work for somebody for a year and start your own thing. You just don't have the wisdom or experience. You just don't. You can't buy that. You have to go through it. That's universal idea. You have to go through it. And not actually one of my favorite ideas is the cliche, like 95% of business has failed. If you put in the 10, 15, 20 years in an industry, you devote yourself to mastery. I am very confident that number may not inverse, but it gets very close to being a higher chance of success and failure. Well, when I always tell my kids, because like, Dad, I want to go start this thing. I'm like, you're not ready. You don't have an experience. I'm like, you need to go work in corporate market for at least 10 years and then we'll talk at least 10, maybe 15. You need experiencing wisdom. You have a 20 year old on your team who made over 900 in commission. Yeah. Okay. So what separates somebody like him from people that have decades of experience, commitment to mastery? What does he do at 20? You can have committed to mastery. What does that mean? What's the daylight? Went through training all the time. Like, it was the same thing when I went when I was young. So like, you know, five minutes while I'm ironing my shirt, what am I listening to? Stuff that's helping me learn how to sell more. What? 10 minutes while I'm eating my wheaties, 15 minutes to the chiropractor, 15 minutes back, 10 minutes to the gym, 10 minutes back, you know, 25 minutes while I tried to work, 25 minutes back, I just had an hour and 20 minutes of sales training that day. But see, most people are like, I don't have time to learn. Well, what do you listen to when you're driving around your car? Music? How much is that music making you every month? Nothing. Nothing. Just distracting you. You know, if you want to listen to music, listen on the weekends. If you're in sales, Monday through Friday, you should be listening to something that's going to help you sell more. You got to stay in that mode. What would be the most toxic sales advice you've ever heard? Most toxic sales advice. It's a lot. It's a lot of bad advice. I don't like when, and I get why people say it, but I don't like when people say buyers or liars. I'm like, they're only lying to you because you're triggering them to not want to open up to you. Like the sales person is causing them to lie to you. Like, you don't understand the reaction, you know, or, you know, and I get why people say sales is a numbers game. I think if you keep in selling that into your reps heads, though, they don't focus on increasing their skill level. And so they just like, well, it's just a numbers game. They just go through the motions. I call it a skills game. You imagine like, you know, Steph Curry, the three point champ, you know, shooting, you know, three pointers that go, it's just a numbers game. Just shoot as many times as you can, eventually you'll hit one. You know, he wouldn't have made his high school varsity team, right? Seth knows that it's a skills game. That's why he's at what, practicing every day. Why is he practicing every day? He should have like a thousand three pointers every day. He's focused on his technique, his elbow movements, his hips, his wrist movements. And that's why he's one of the best because he knows it's a skills game, not just a numbers game. Listen, sales is such a beautiful, it's a beautiful skill, but a lot of people don't understand how to do it properly. They just, you know, commit to master it. It's all influence. It's all persuasion. I mean, everyone is in sales, like even if you don't have a sales job, you're still out selling, selling your startup to the first hire, selling to the investors, selling broccoli to your kid who doesn't want to eat. Yeah. If you're an attorney trying to convince your judge that your client's innocent, you're trying to persuade, you're trying to influence, you know, if you're a, you know, a politician trying to get people to vote for you, you're trying to persuade influence, you're trying to move others, your way of thinking, everything is in sales. Like it's the number one asset you have to master if you want to get ahead in life. I always, you know, I was on a podcast sister day. It's like, like Elon Musk, look at him for example, it's not like he was the only person that had the concept of electrical cars. But the reason why his blew up is because he knew how to communicate it better. He knew how to frame it better to the audience, Jeffrey Bezos, not the only person that an idea of like Amazon, he just knew how to frame it better. He knew how to communicate it better. So it's all about framing what you're selling. I go back to like, it's every, in the prospect's mind, your product, your service kind of looks like the same as everybody else is they don't know all that you know. So it's how you frame that offer. So I'll give you this analogy. I was talking to my buddy Dan Henry's big internet marketer and he gave some ideas on this. Yeah, Dan, I just had him on show ago. So it's like having two family pictures, like you got your family there, you're married, maybe you got kids or whatever, you get the family pictures there, same identical pictures. You go to the store and you buy two different frames. The first frame is like emaculant, like gold just just looks gorgeous, you know, setting up on that mantle. The second frame, you go to an antique store or flea market. It's kind of rough on the edges, looks really old, kind of worn out, got a few holes, nicks in it. Which picture are you going to pick up? They're maculant. They're maculant. It's the same picture though, but the reason why you picked up that one is because it was framed better. It's the same with your solution or your offer. It's how you frame it that determines if they're going to buy or not over somebody else. So there was one podcast clip that went viral. It was Jordan Belfort and Grant Cardone arguing, I heard about that. Did you see this clip? I watched some of it, yeah. Basically, it was Grant Cardone saying that there's no is never a no. And Jordan Belfort, who is a sales guy, was like, I don't think that's right, dude, like I'm pretty sure it's sometimes. What was Grant thinking behind that? I don't know. He was saying that there's always a way to turn a no into a yes. And if somebody says no, then there's still a customer and Jordan's like, no, there's a point where they're like no longer a customer. But yeah, I mean, reality. There's reality. Not everybody's going to buy. No, but Grant was like, I'll find a way to close everybody. That was kind of the, I know that sounds cool, but yeah. The point is you can talk about whatever you want to talk about in regards to those two guys. I don't care. I think the more important thing for them. I don't know them. I'm sure they're amazing, you know, grants an amazing marketer. It looks like he does really, really, really well in real estate, amazing marketer. Yeah. Different sales methodologies. Yeah. Jordan has the straight line. He does talk a little bit about tone-out. Air tone-outies would be a little bit different. But I'm sure they're amazing. I just don't know them. But that wasn't my question. My question was, when is a no and no? When is a no and no? Well, I can probably tell by their body language and their tone-outy. When do you walk away from it? If they're like, dude, I'm not interested. That's probably a no. But it depends on. It's all contextual. Like, I hate to give straight jacket interpretations because people want to understand. When do I disqualify? Is the formal terminology for this? That answer would be based off me reading their tone. Here's what I always say. Listen to what the prospect means, not just what they're saying. Okay. So it's all contextual based on if I'm in person, I see their body language because their body language could tell me like, dude, this person is really not interested. Then I can do here. It's going to get their guard down. Comparative vibes on the phone. I've got to read their tone-outy. So let me give you an example of this. Well, let's go back to this for a second. What causes a prospect to give you an objection? I would assume, I'll make an assumption, I don't know if that's correct. I would assume in their mind they think that it's not relevant to, it's uncertainty. It's uncertainty. Uncertainty triggers them to have a concern or an objection. Uncertainty. Who controls that the prospect's certain or uncertain? It would be the salesperson. Salesperson. Yeah. See, a lot of salespeople are like, oh, my prospects see me all these objections. But I'm like, I love you. Did the prospect wake up that morning and be like, you know what, when that salesperson calls me today at 3.45 in the afternoon, I think I'm going to fight or fight mode about 35 seconds in and say, oh, good, we already have somebody. That's not a planned objection. It's a triggered objection based off you and what you said and how you use your tone that triggered them to react that way. So if I understand how to eliminate those that triggering stuff, I just have to advantage over everybody else because I can get them to let their guard down. But I have to get them certainty. So let's say you're trying to close somebody and you ask them like, hey, do you feel like this could be the answer for you? And they're like, they're sitting here like this, you're in person like, yeah, yeah, I think it could. Most salespeople do what? Great. Let me show you how to get started. What I just heard though, even if I didn't see them was, they're uncertain. Their tone just told me they're not really sure the way they said that. So I would say, you see, you seem a bit hesitant when I asked you that last question. So what's going on? Well, see, the tone, the tone, listen to what they mean, not just what they say. See, if I were to try to close them, they're like, well, I'm not ready yet. I need to talk to my spouse, or you know, I'm not ready yet, I need to think this over. Okay. I would have triggered that had I kept going in for that close based off them like, well, I think it could. See, then I'm going to stop. That just told me, I'm not sure. That was what they just told me. So I'm going to lean and back. You seem a bit hesitant when I asked you that question, what's going on? You can tell me. I'm going to, you know, it's off the record, you know, just that concern town that, well, I've just had this concern. Now I'm there to help them resolve that concern and then I'm going to close and I'm probably not going to get that one to think it over objection, which is not really an objection in itself, but that's a whole nother story. People are selling virtual. They're also, I mean, I mean, COVID obviously pushed people to sell virtual. And but I just want to understand, you mentioned tonality, you mentioned body language, obviously you can't see the body if you're on a zoom call to the same degrees if you're sitting across from them. Yeah, you see somebody. Yeah, somebody. Can I say something about zoom? I think most sales people that sell in zoom do, it makes them pretty critical mistakes that are really bad. First of all, there's a couple of things you want to do psychologically. When you're on zoom, you never want to have your background blurred out or like a different, like you have a beach behind you and you're setting right here. Why is that? Because subconsciously are the way our brains work. This is like, you're talking tens of thousands of years, whenever God put the first humans here on this planet, that's all debatable. Back in the day, if somebody had their hands behind their back 10,000 years ago, you'd be triggered because you think that they might be hiding a weapon. Now even though that other human beings on zoom, our brains still have that survival mode. So if you're on zoom and they only see up here and they can't see any of this or like subconsciously, you're communicating to them that you might be hiding something. They don't, it's not like they're thinking like you're going to pull out a gun and shoot the screen. Like it doesn't matter. But subconsciously, their brain is telling them I can't trust this person because they can't see your arms. Like you might be hiding a weapon. I'm not kidding you. This is crazy. One of my good friends, Mark Bowden, is one of the leading behavioral, leading behavioral scientists that specializes in body language, it trains a lot of like parliament and like the EU and stuff like that. And they teach politicians this stuff, right, like how to use your hand signals and different things like that. And if you literally like hide your arms because I see a lot of people like this, I'm like they see like the neck. You don't want to do that. You want to see naval up. We call this the trust zone, like the trust zone, like naval up, see all this. That's a trust zone. You never, I see a lot of people like though, they'll be on phone and zoom. So it looks like they're looking down at the prospect overpowering them. You don't want to have that feeling because they feel like you're overpowering them. You also want to be looking up like this because then you look like lower status. So you need to have like good, this is like, of course, if you need to have a good camera, you need to be like up here, you know, you need to be able to like move your arms and you always want your background not to be like blurred out or like a beach scene or something like not your thing because it communicates to them that you're once again hiding something. So you want like a nice bookshelf like you have here with some books on or some shows that you have some wisdom. Maybe that they don't have subconsciously. So anytime you see me do any reals or like a virtual training, what do you see in my background? I don't know if you've ever saw my stuff. You're going to see like 2,000 books behind me, like I have a whole library behind me. I'm subconsciously seeding that I have knowledge you don't have, which I do. But I'm seeding it by my background and I'm not doing it to them. I'm doing that for them. Everything. Everything you do. Everything you do for them to influence. I don't view influence as something that's bad though. I view influence as something I'm doing for them, which is what it is. Like if I can't communicate and frame my message well enough, like I have a moral obligation to help these people because if I don't help them somewhere who is, if they keep selling the same way they always have, what's going to happen? Same thing they've always gotten. So if I can't influence them to let their guard down and to become open to, like I've got to master this stuff, nothing will ever change for them. And I offer them no value at that point. Can you just give a little bit of knowledge about what does certain body language mean? What does certain tonality mean if the customer is giving it back to you or if they're speaking a certain way? Because I mean we're talking, most of this podcast has been from the perspective of how do you act as a salesperson? Yeah. How do you read them? How do you read them? Yeah. So that one example where I just gave the tone of the prospect would be an example. Let's say that, let's say I'm in person and I'm meeting in a boardroom. There's 10 decision makers. I've already got two on board, like two C-level executives. They're my champions. I've got eight people that this is their fifth pitch of the day. You know, it's Thursday, they're bringing all the vendors. They don't know me from Adam, okay? And let's say I'm going through a presentation and then over in the corner, you know, nine seats down, I see Karen over there go like this and she kind of, you know, I go through that last slide and she kind of looks up and it's like like that. That just told me that she doesn't understand something that I just went through or she doesn't agree with it or she has a concern. Now, if she just goes like this, doesn't necessarily mean that she's closed off. Maybe she's cold, you know? She just depends on if she gives me a lot of signals like that that she's closed off. But just because a person just goes like this because people was like, oh, if somebody folds their arms or closed off, not necessarily, they just could be cold. They could be freaking bored, you know, so you got to, you got to see that. But if she goes like, well, what would most sales people do? Would they keep going through the presentation, hoping to pray that something they're going to say is going to convince everybody, not me, like I thought she's got a concern because I'm going to leave that room. They're still going to be there and they're going to do what they're talking to talk. And she might start to influence them about something. She has a concern. I can see it, you know, her body language. So I'm going to stop the presentation, I'm like, hey, hey, Gretchen, you see, you seemed a little bit hesitant when I went to be mortified that you're doing that. No, it's that. It's how you do it. I'm like, hey, Gretchen, hey, you seemed a little bit like, see, that's, she'd be more comfortable. Hey, hey, hey, Gretchen, yeah, you've seen a little bit hesitant when I went through a slide 14. What's behind that? Just so I understand, concern tone, tone that shows empathy. Now she feels comfortable because I'm concerned, I have empathy, okay, he's hesitant when I went through that last side, what's behind that, you know, what's going on? Concerned tone. But I'm like, hey, you seem a bit hesitant about that. Like what's going on? Now she's going to get defensive. See because I want her to tell that concern there, I've got to get it out of her. Now I'm there, everybody's going to hear it anyways, now I can address it and like move on and help close them. So just little things like that, that'd be a body language signal. Now if I want to influence on my end, if I want to show somebody I'm concerned for them and could put my hand on me just, what's really holding it back? It's a body language signal that you care, they have empathy. So there's a lot of different things. I could go on and on. What if you do zoom and the person's camera's off? Well, I would make sure they're their camera on. But a lot of people are weird when they do that. They get on there, they don't have their camera on, they're like, hey, can you turn on your camera on? I really like to see who I'll be working with and people are like, whoa, weird. So you've got to kind of act this out. So if you get on there, you know, sorry, everything you do, everything you do is in service of them and everything you do, including how to get them to turn on the camera, is a microsale. Yeah, exactly. That's just how you do everything. Yeah. So don't, you don't, you don't command them to turn on the camera. No. You're selling them on the idea of having an influence in them, because they're to help them too. Yeah. So if I can see them, I can read their body language better, just those, I can't read their body language. The things often, it's kind of weird talking to a black screen, that'd be weird. So when they get on, I might be like, can you, can you see me, I can't see you as your video broken? Doing that a lot of times, people would just like, oh, no, no, I, and they'll just turn on because they feel embarrassed, okay? 80% of the time, they'll just turn on because they've literally feel embarrassed. And if they're like, oh, no, I just, I don't like to turn my cameras on. Well, what's going on over there? You still in your pajamas at 3 30, or 3 30 in the afternoon, George, oh, a lot of times they'll just laugh in the turn on, but I have to use a playful tone there. I wasn't like, what's going on or you're in your pajamas at 3 30 in the afternoon? Well, weird guy, you know? So it's how you use your tone, that's where a playful tone comes in, where you're playing with them. Like, you're, you're, you're, you know, you're not the class clown, but you're, you're being a little bit sarcastic, you know, it just caused people to laugh. It's a disarming technique. I might get on a call in certain industries where I have A types, a lot of like business owners. I'm like, you know, I get on there and start talking like, hey, yeah, I, I really appreciate, you know, your openness here because you'd be surprised. So I just got off a call with another company there for 20 minutes and they're so closed minded and just kind of emotionally shut off. And you know, people like that are never successful that are closed off themselves. Now, what did I just do? I put them in an identity frame that they're not going to be closed off because they don't want to be like those unsuccessful people. Amazing. So I did that. So I'm already taking them out of the frame of being closed off. I'm deframing them and reframing them into the frame of being open. So there's all these like things that you do to help them, like if I can't get them to open up, if they stay closed off, I can't really help them, right? So a lot of people are like, oh, you know, Jeremy, like I just have a hard time. I just don't like asking questions where they, they talk about the pain because they just get so emotional. I'm like, well, unfortunately for them that really sucks because they're not going to buy from you because if you can't help them relive their pain and have a fear of future pain, they feel no need to change. And if they feel no need to change, that's why they don't buy. So if you feel uncomfortable, you're just hurting them. See I'm not doing it to them. I'm doing it for them. I'm getting them to feel their pain because I'm doing it for them because pain drives change. Like if I came here right now at the sledgehammer and just like slam down on your kneecap, smashed it, you feel a lot of pain. You want to change real quick. Like you want to go to the doctor to get that solved. But if I walk around with the sledgehammer and I've got this weird look, I'm like a stranger, now you're feeling a fear of future pain. And you want to move away from that pain. See, pain, fear of future pain caused you to one change. Two big C-motion drivers, pleasures of third, last one question to close this up. But before we get there, where do you want people to go and connect with you? Just have them follow me on Instagram, follow my verified account, Jeremy Lee Minor, follow that verified account. And by the way, my team is going to give everybody here our newest version of any PQ Black Book of Questions. Maybe the digital version for free. If you want the physical, you can always pay the shipping. It's like 10 bucks. Give a link from stupid. Maybe I have one. I'll get you one. I will get a link from you. There's a number. They have to text to get it. So text is at 480-637-2944 and just text. And they'll get your information to digitally send it out to you. If you want the physical copy, you just pay the shipping handing. But do that. The number they can actually ask us questions on it because me and about 10 of our sales trainers lock ourselves in a conference room about an hour and a half each day and we answer people's questions. It's kind of cool. Yeah. I'll put it in the show notes and we'll send everything. Yeah. Oh, the phone number. Oh, you just want a phone number? Well, they can follow me on Instagram so I'll give you my handle and then they can just text us on that number. It's a number that goes into like my team, the people that do the Black Book stuff. Out of everything, out of everything that you've learned over your career. I always like to ask this question because it sort of draws out sort of the most important lesson that you've learned. It could be in sales. It could be in life. If you could only pass on one lesson to your kids, what would that lesson be? Now why? Success is just a choice. You just choose well. Success is simply a choice. You decide if you're going to be successful or not. It really forces you to be unsuccessful. You have to do things to be successful. You have to learn and you have to take knowledge up what you learn. Most people do it backwards. They either learn a bunch of stuff and never take action or they just take action but they never learn and so they fail. It's hard to fail when you acquire skills necessary for success. It's easy to fail when you don't acquire skills necessary to success and I think a lot of people, it's like this hustle culture. Just go out and fail. You've got to fail 17 times before you succeed. Who wants to freaking fail, man? I don't want to fail. I want to learn skills that allow me to have knowledge to succeed. If I acquire skills that are advanced from people who have already mastered the thing I want to do, the likelihood of me failing is really good though. But if I don't master those skills, if I dabble, the likelihood for me to fail is very, very high. That's the difference.