Rebecca Zung - USA Today Bestselling Author & U.S. News Best Lawyer | The Top 1% Attorney Who Cracked the Code on Beating Narcissists

A lot of people would say my spouse is a narcissist, so I started studying it because I wanted to win in the courtroom. Somebody recently said to me, when you chased, you never kept. So I was chasing, chasing, chasing. What if the key to winning against narcissists wasn't fighting harder, but negotiating smarter? Rebecca Zung is a globally recognized negotiation expert and a USA Today best-selling author who has spent decades mastering high-conflict negotiations. We had this programming. We're born thinking we're amazing. And then life starts layering on. We think it's do have been, but it's actually you have to be at first and then start doing the stuff and then you'll have. She's helped people around the world reclaim their power in relationships, business, and life. Today she's here to break down the psychology of power, negotiation, and how to win without losing yourself. A lot of why relationships fail, a lot of our own suffering, comes from expectations. It doesn't matter if whoever is, you deserve to be respected. The more you take back your power, they're more afraid of you than you are of them. They didn't attach themselves to you because you have some little value. Sometimes it's painful. Sometimes you got to burn a little off to get the people that you really want. If you don't get your goals, you get your standards. Your value is defined by you. Pick an inflection point. Pick any inflection point in your life that was meaningful enough that sort of sticks in your mind, that put you on the path that you're on today. So what was that inflection point and what? Gosh, I mean, I think that there were a lot of survival in some ways my whole life up until now has been sort of like the theme has been survival in a lot of ways. But that's changed recently. I'm much more about abundance now and because I've done a lot of personal development work, but if you had that opening question and there's so much loaded in that for me, because I think, gosh, I wasn't raised like poor, like a lot of people think, talk about. My dad wasn't like a homelessness wreck, so I know that sounds kind of, but my dad was Chinese. He was a doctor. My mom was German. She was an operating room nurse. That's how they met. But I always say I have no fun genes whatsoever. And no jokes at all. No, but there was a lot of expectation around that, you know, because they were they demanded a lot. So I dropped out of college and which was my parents dream. They love that. And I got married at 19 and I had three kids by the time it was 22 and they're at divorce. Super. And so they were so happy. They just were so excited about all of that, that path. And then I was like, what the hell am I doing? I have no money and this is life is just, you know, nothing. Pretty good. That's about orange. Yeah, like me quick. Yes. And so I thought I got to figure something out. And so I did finish college in the middle of all of that. And when and I was teaching, I had a degree in education. I was always teaching. And I said, I got to put a roof of my kids head. And so I knew I could go to law school. It was like the only advanced degree that I could get and not have a prerequisite. And plus I knew my dad would actually be proud of me. You know, it was like doctor or lawyer. Yeah. And so I put myself through University of Miami law school at night while I was teaching school during the day. And you know, I knew that and I was 100% on student loans and lived on the student loans as well. And so when I got out, I had this massive student loan debt. And I did make a wall reveal at Miami. And I got a job in Naples with one of the top family law attorneys in the country. Like she spoke in the ABA and she was, you know, representing very wealthy people. It was a very affluent community. And so that's how I kind of came off through the family law ranks as a baby lawyer. So she represented some pretty well-known people over there. You know, what happens with Naples is it's the most millionaires per capita in the country actually. I didn't know that. Yeah. And so if it's right now, I'm pretty sure right now, at least a couple months ago, I had the most expensive listing in the country. It was like 300 million or something. And so I got to really learn the craft of high-get-worth divorce, which is actually a very complex area of the law. Because you have to know trust law and business law and tax law. And so it was it was a good way for me to cut my teeth as a lawyer and also learn a lot about narcissism. So that's kind of how I started studying about narcissism because a lot of people would say, hey, my spouse is a narcissist. So I started studying it because I wanted to win in the courtroom. I wanted to actually figure out how to win or see up these reaction and not understand these people. So that's kind of how it started way back when. Can I ask, why do you say that it's only now that you're not in survival mode? Yeah, in a but because it sounds like so the beginning of your story, everyone's going to say, yes, that sounds like survival. Like you, you know, had kids young, divorced, young, kind of lost. But you by outside looking me in perspective, you were covered pretty quick, law school, you get your degree to start practicing. That doesn't seem like survival. So well, Bentley has been law school. We got married. I had a fourth child. But even then, you know, I went out of my own still trying to figure out how to make enough money to pay off my student loans that it was always like stress. Stress. How do I make enough money? How do I cover my bills? How do I pay for my kids, put them through private school? It was always sort of this fear of making enough money, making my parents proud. You know, a Brunei Brown talks about hustling for your worthiness, right? And so I always sort of had that feeling. And in 2013, I wrote my first book of Breaking Free. And I got some amount of notoriety with that. John Gray wrote a testimonial for me. And I started to do a little bit television with that. I started to do some, like, TMV and Extra, I will call upon me to do some, you know, like, hilarious, commentary of like some celebrities would get divorced or whatever. You know, I would like, you know, comment on that. And so that was sort of like how I started to get a little taste of television or that sort of thing. So in 2017, I wanted to, you know, it's interesting though, when you're a high performing person, now it makes sense. When you're a high performing person, it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter how much you're succeeding. If you're not in the right mindset, lifestyle creep kicks in, you spend more money, you find ways to stress yourself out. Even if you are doing well career wise, you always feel like you're not doing enough. And it's less of a, it's less of the reality that you're living in more like this mental prison that you're stuck in. And I think a lot of people that outside looking in somebody like, you're successful. Why are you? It's not that. The expectations you have of yourself and the constantly needing and striving for more, it's a double edge sort because on one end, on one side, that's a major successful. On the other side is what makes you never happy with your own success. Right. And chasing. Yeah. And you know, somebody recently said to me, when you chase, you never kept. Yeah. Right. And so I was chasing, chasing, chasing. So in 2017, we moved to L.A. and I emerged from my practice to other guys. And I'm like, I'm not going to practice a lot because I just felt like my daughter was just starting high school my youngest. And I knew that I only had a few years left with her. I wanted to spend time with her. And I was like consumed with this practice. Like I built it and it was, I was a built it and it ate me because like it was, I had the top family love practice over there. And I had no time for my family. I had this massive house and Naples. I was doing really well, but I had no life, literally no life. And so I knew I wanted to do something else. And so I got into a business partnership with somebody who turned out to be a covert narcissist, a female. And it didn't do well. And but it also flattened me in a personal way because it brought back all these feelings of when I had them bullied as a child. And I felt just really like it kept me up at night. And there was this time I took my family on vacation. We were in Maui. And we went to Mount Halliacola to see the sunrise. And it was so beautiful. My daughter who was 17 at the time, she leans over and she's like, ma, isn't it beautiful? It's like having on earth. I said, yeah, it is. I couldn't even enjoy it because all I could think about was this person that I was in business partnership with. And I thought in that moment, oh my God, I'm giving this person my power. I'm not even enjoying this vacation. Every moment I give this person my power, I'm in victim mode and I'm not in creation mode. So the person who walked up that mountain was not the person who walked down that mountain. I was like, I'm done with that. I'm not doing this anymore. And so I thought I'm getting out of this. So the minute we walked down that mountain, I wrote this person an email. So I'm not going to be in this partnership anymore. I look forward to a, let's do this the right way. I really wanted to do it the right way. And of course, she couldn't do it the right way. And you know, it didn't because, you know, that's how it goes. But I felt really good about it. I ended up writing negotiate like you matter. I sent it out for testimonials. This was in fall of 2019. One of the people I sent it out to was Robert Shapiro. He ends up texting me or writing me an email saying, Hey, can I write the forward? I didn't even know him. Like magic starts happening January of 20. I start my YouTube channel. I did one video on how to negotiate with a narcissist. And you know, the rest is history. So crazy thing is that I go back to my old business coach during that time. And I was like so flattened. And I said to her, I said, you know, I just feel like the only way that I can make money is from my love practice. And she said to me, it wasn't the love practice that made the money. It was fuel. You're a badass. Go do your thing. And it was such an aha moment for me. Why why does self doubt? Because that's a moment. I think that there's been like all these different awakenings in your life. You mentioned that even before like we press report, you're saying, well, there's so many different points in my life that have been these like awakenings where I'm not interested like my own power. And it's interesting because somebody would look at you when you're at the peak of your law career. Yeah. And think, well, she can't even like, you know, understand her own power and her own bad assness. So like what what hope is it for me? Like you every single day, you are a badass in real life. So what in your opinion, what blinds people to like their own potential in business, in life, in relationships like, why do we default to being a victim? Yeah. Such a great question. And it's our own neuronal patterns, right? So we had this programming. What more for? We're born thinking we're amazing because we come out happy. And then life starts layering on, you know, this is a perfect example. One of my best friends has two sisters and she went one time when she remembers this moment where her two sisters were sitting on her aunt's lap. And she goes to sit on her aunt's lap. And she was the third sister to try to sit on her aunt's lap. And when she goes to try to sit on her aunt's lap, her aunt let, ah, too many kids, everybody off. And in that moment, she decided she wasn't lovable. Instead of thinking, maybe her aunt just didn't want three kids on her lap, right? And that's trial to trauma. And that's what happened. Yeah. Right? We think, we come to conclusions as kids because different things happen. And instead of thinking, well, maybe it was other circumstances or maybe the adult was having a bad day or maybe the adult had or whatever, because kids, we can't process that. But life happens to us as kids. And then we start forming your own patterns and we come to conclusions. And then we start looking for evidence in reality during our lifetime. And then it becomes reality. Yeah. The kind of is like what we talked about before we started recording was like the B do have thing, right? So we have to be it. We think it's do. And then we'll have and that we think it's do have B, right? You're going to do the stuff. And then we'll have it and then we'll be what we want, right? Because then we'll feel it. But it's actually you have to be it first and then start doing the stuff. And then you'll have you know, so you have this early childhood trauma that shapes your perception of the world. And I had a conversation about this a lot. And that early childhood trauma or any kind of trauma, it just goes into your subconscious. And then it's almost like the operating system is always running in the background that you don't even realize that's that it's there. And it can impact your relationships. Right. You're how you approach your career. I've heard in situations like if it's so serious, it can actually affect you physically. Oh yeah. This is strong. So, Miggilajaj. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So what is it? So people that are listening to this have never done any sort of therapy, never done any sort of self-worthy. I believe that everybody has traumas. Doesn't matter. I don't you don't think you do. It's narcissism. Yeah. So explain the connection because I want to so this is obviously the podcast helping somebody who is the victim or in a relationship with the narcissist. But what is like let's define what narcissism actually is. So is a narcissist is narcissism childhood trauma just manifested differently? Yeah. So I would somebody turn to a narcissist with somebody doesn't it? I mean, we all have a some degree of narcissism. I mean, because it is a spectrum, right? So what happens in childhood? Well, what happens with all of us when we go into survival mode when the way we're wired up, you know, the way we were wired up is that if we think that we need to be in survival and the body doesn't know the difference between when there's a bear standing in front of us or not, the body reacts the same way. So the way we were designed is that if we need to survive our bodies, um, in the chemicals, hormones, which are mostly adrenaline and cortisol. And that was the way the reason why I was designed that way is so that we could be stronger or run faster or, you know, be ready to do something about it. And we weren't designed to have to deal with this for long term. It was supposed to be short term, but what happens if we're in this stress mode for long term, is that it can actually cause damage to the body, right? And so if you're a child and this stress hormone is being emitted all the time, then it can actually cause damage to the um, living system part of the brain. So that's the emotional center of the brain. And it can actually cause, um, arrested development, okay? So when this person grows up, so let's say it's because they've had neglect or abuse or they've witnessed abuse or, um, maybe it's overindulgence or, you know, whatever it is. And it hits different people different ways. So they could grow up in the same home and maybe it's their different ages or maybe they were not at home as much or maybe they're more sensitive or whatever. They don't really know why people develop it in different ways. But they're, um, they develop arrested, they're, they have arrested development. So they don't develop the way that you should, the way that you should. So they're, they're prefrontal cortex continues to develop. So that's the thinking judgment reason part, which is this part. So they grow up. And now what happens is as adults, when they're triggered by something that's not usually reasonable or rational, like they think they're going to lose control or that somebody has, um, slighted them in some way. It could be a tone of voice. It could be, um, an eye roll. It could be whatever body movement or whatever. Now it causes that limbic system to take over. And I've talked to brain experts about this. It literally shuts down the prefrontal cortex. So though this rational part of the brain is no longer in control at all. It's literally shut down. Like they can see this on, uh, on a scan, yeah. And so now the limbic system is the only thing that's in control. And so now they're no longer thinking from any sort of rational or reasonable place. And so now you're just dealing with full emotion. And sometimes it's rage. And they don't even realize this themselves. And so now that's why you cannot communicate or negotiate with this type of a person in this thing way that you can with a person who's rational or reasonable, because they'll actually sell sabotage to take you down. The, the like, I'm going to burn my business to the ground so that I'll have to pay you. And I remember not understanding this as an attorney. Like why in the hell would this person do that? It makes no sense. But they, they don't even realize what they're doing. They don't realize what they're doing. So it's, it's, it's crazy. But you know, they're in full image. I'm making a hijack at that point. Quick question. What's your go to when you got 10 minutes before a meeting or a workout? For me, it just used to be whatever I could grab, which usually meant skipping meals entirely or just grabbing something that left me crashing an hour later because it was just full of garbage. That's why I'm partnering with Hule. This black edition ready to drink is a complete meal. So it has 35 grams of protein, six grams of fiber, 35 essential vitamins and minerals. It is no sugar added gluten-free under five bucks. I always keep a few of these in my fridge. And honestly, it solved the whole back-to-back meetings, go, go, go, non-stop, no time to eat problem. Super well. And this one's new for me. It's Hule's daily greens. I had the blueberry this morning. Honestly, first impression, it was way better than I expected. It's developed by registered nutritionists and dieticians. There are 42 vitamins, minerals and superfoods, only 25 calories, four grams of fiber and just one gram of sugar. I throw one back first thing before my morning calls every single morning. Look, if you're running a business, time is the most valuable asset. Hule makes healthy eating simple and they also just launch into target source nationwide so you can get it everywhere. Try both products today with 15% off your purchase for new customers with my exclusive code, Scott at Hule.com slash Scott. Try both products today with 15% off your purchase for new customers with my exclusive code, Scott at COTT at Hule.com slash Scott. Use my code, fill out the post checkout survey to help support the show that is Hule.com slash Scott. They really make healthy living case amazing. Even if you're on the go, healthy eating, healthy lifestyle doesn't have to taste bad, it doesn't have to suck. NetSuite is the number one AI Cloud ERP. It's trusted by over 43,000 businesses. It's a unified suite that pulls your financials, inventory, commerce, HR and CRM into a single source of truth. That connected data is what makes the AI smarter. It doesn't just guess it knows. It can automate routine tasks, it can deliver actionable insights and it can help you cut costs and make fast decisions with confidence. And now with the NetSuite AI connector, you can use the AI of your choice to connect to your actual business data and ask every question you've ever had. This isn't just another bolted on tool. It's AI built into the system that actually runs your business. So whether your company earns millions or hundreds of millions, NetSuite helps you stay ahead. If I needed something like this for my business, I'd use NetSuite than you should to. So if your revenues are at least in the seven figures, get our free business guide demystifying AI at NetSuite.com slash Scott Clary. The guide is free to you at NetSuite.com slash Scott Clary. NetSuite.com slash Scott Clary. So I'm reading between the lines, it sounds like, and narcissists has always become this buzzword. Right. And I think that it's all important to identify what isn't what isn't because I'm sure you do with a lot of people, say, oh, you know, my partner is a narcissist when they're actually not. But when they are, the issue is if I were talking about like a relationship, but it would the same goes for business. I say I love this person. Obviously not business, hopefully. It's just like a partner, whatever boyfriend, girlfriend, has the white. The first thought you're gonna have is, oh, I want to try and like work through this, fix it. But if they're not thinking they're being wrong, then all this trying to fix them, I mean, I don't know how you get it to go anywhere. You just don't really don't. And you also can't blame them. I mean, you know, a lot of the issue, and you know, Chris Lee, we were talking about Chris Lee before, he's a mentor and also an amazing coach. And he talks a lot about expectations and a lot of why relationships fail. And a lot of our own suffering comes from expectations. And you know, we expect people to act of a certain way. And we get disappointed when they don't. And and you know, if you just stop and think, well, how much of of something is happening because we expected this and they didn't measure up to that. And okay, well, you know, somebody's not gonna do something just because you expected it. Yeah, of course. Right. So, but I also want to just touch on that thing that I just mentioned. So why is narcissism, it seems like such a buzz word now. And why does everybody think that somebody who isn't acting right as a narcissist immediately? Well, I'm adding that there's this many narcissists running around. It seems like there's a. First of all, Dean Twenge in her both the narcissism epidemic, which was quoted this past year in a Harvard Business Review article, which is a book said that from the 1970s to 2010, there was an increase in people who were diagnosed with narcissism personality disorder by 30%. It's a lot. Yeah. And so I do think they're I mean, there obviously has been an increase in NP. NP. Now, they attribute that to social media, overindulgence, different types of parenting styles, you know, I think the way maybe Gen Xers or parenting, you know, baby boomers were different types of parents. I don't know. Who knows, like obviously it's all conjecture. I mean, but I think or maybe they weren't diagnosing it before or who knows. There is an increase in the numbers for sure. I think that maybe there's more of an awareness of it now. But I, but that same token, I do think that there is an overuse of the word. I think people are too quick to use the word for sure. And I know, I definitely don't say everybody's a narcissist and all of that. And I think people do need to be careful about using it and just calling people that and, you know, just throwing it around for sure. I think that also it's like outside of just calling people that and hurting their feelings. I think the actual issue is, okay, how do people proceed through tough relationships? Because how you proceed through a tough relationship and the work that you do with the work that you work on together, or if you think, am I going to continue in this relationship, right? Is it the relationship? I'm assuming a lot of that depends on whether or not you diagnose this correctly. I mean, I know that this is what I say all the time. First of all, I mean, I like to use the word high conflict more than narcissistic. I think it's a little more appropriate. Number one, but number two, what I like to say is if the relationship, you know, I like to say, you know, this approach isn't working for me or this isn't working for me or how do you feel in the relationship? I mean, you know, a lot of times use your heart, use your gut instead of your head. You know, don't slap labels onto it, right? You know, you know how you feel in the relationship. Do you feel like your needs are being that, you know, and it doesn't have to be a personal relationship either. You know, it could be, I mean, I've been in jobs before. I mean, you know, I had my own business for a long time now, but I've definitely been in jobs before where I know that it hasn't been working for me where I haven't felt hurt. I haven't felt honored. I haven't felt respected and, you know, try to work it out, try to have a conversation, try to have, you know, communication that feels honored and respected. You know, I always say, it doesn't matter if it's your mother, your sister, your brother, your boss, your colleague, whoever you are, whoever it is, you deserve to be respected. Contracts, issues, terms, those are the things that are negotiable. What's not negotiable? Your, your self-respect, who you are. Um, so I would say be less, um, app to jump in and use labels, because really, there was no matter as much. I understand. So at the end of the day, listen, whether or not this person is clinically a narcissist, like, or if they're just an asshole, regardless, maybe don't be with them. Right. Or don't get into business because that's, yeah, that's a very good point. I mean, it doesn't really matter if they're, I think that, yeah, I think that if they're not salty, regardless, you should probably try and exit out of that as quickly as possible. Exactly. But the business partner that you had, the covert narcissist, maybe describe, well, you can describe sort of like the hallmarks of what a narcissist or being in a relationship with a narcissist feels like, but then also talk about covert narcissist so that people can sort of be aware of that and concepts that, hopefully, they can look for signals ahead of time. So they don't, I'm assuming Cobra means you don't realize it till it's too late, but is there anything that you can look at going to business with this person, I'm going on dates with this person, I'm spending some time with this person, um, anything that could be like red flag, very red flag behavior. Yeah. Passive aggressive. Um, they smile to your face. They seem really kind to everybody else, but to you, you know, they'll agree to do things and then, you know, weeks later, they haven't done it. You ask them about it. Uh, where is it? They'll either say, they're working on it or they'll say, oh, I never said that I was going to do that. Oh, I guess what you're to. They gaslight you. Um, oh, we talked about that and, um, you said, you were going to do it or they, they used parts of conversation and, um, oh, no, we said that it was going to be like that and, you know, like that sort of thing. Um, or, um, money situations, like, oh, I didn't, I didn't know how to deposit it in the bank account. So I put it in my bank account. Um, you know, so you're like always sort of confused about how to bring things up with them. Um, oh, they might say things like, um, oh, that, um, dress looks really great on you for, um, you know, your body type. Uh, oh, so it's like a, I never like a compliment. I'd say a compliment with like, uh, yeah. Um, or, uh, like an inadvertent, um, thing where they left you off an email chain. Um, and then they end up meeting with a client that, um, the event you were on there and, um, oh, I thought, I thought I put you on that. Um, and, and they're always sort of smiling, but everybody else thinks they're, they're so nice. Um, and, and you know, and, and so it's, you're always sort of feeling sort of crappy. You just always feel crappy. And you get like, what a finger on it. Yeah. That's very scary. What? So explain to me that why would they, why? Again, I'm trying to probably think through this too logically. But why did they do some of those things that don't even serve that? That's what I don't understand. Like you're mentioning some examples of leave you off an email chain. Like, but like, how does that even help them? Is it just, they won't always want to just sort of push you down just because there's just really, really insecure. There's an underlying rage. There's just this underlying rage. There's underlying insecurity. Yeah. And, um, but they need you and they want to attach themselves to you to make themselves look good, but they're, and they're highly, highly competitive. So, um, it's just this underlying competitiveness rage. Um, but, um, it almost feels like they don't like you the whole time, but they, and there's this competitiveness. Like they're having meetings or things without you, but it's, it's, it kind of makes you crazy the whole time. Like the whole time you're with them, you just feel awful. And listen to the, I think we covered some of this stuff and when we first did a show a couple of years ago, but just we can talk on this briefly and then I want to talk about some of the other stuff that you were upon and some of the stuff you do with like companies, we think that's also interesting and how this ties into it. But when somebody's in a relationship with a narcissist, what, what is the, the playbook to get out of it or even to recognize it and then get out of it? Yeah. I mean, you just know like the whole time that they're not on your side, even though they say they're on your side, you just know that there's something that's off. And then when you bring it up, they, they say the right things all the time, but you just, you can feel that it's not, not. Yeah. And, and then they gaslight you into, you know, there's, you can tell if somebody's actually for you, right? Yeah. How do you get out of it? I mean, you know, when they know that their supply source is going out the door, they're not going to make it fun, right? So you just have to be prepared and that's where my slave method comes into to play. And so strategy, leverage, anticipate, and you and strategy is having that vision, that clear place that you're going and knowing exactly how you're going to get there. I now actually have AI in my program. So it's super cool, actually. How do you use that? So I created my own G, where people can put all of their documentation in there. And they can ask it questions. They can have it create their strategy. They can actually have it create their leverage. I, I programmed it with my books, my programs, my YouTube videos. They can ask it how I would create leverage, how I would respond to their attorneys, how to write letters, it even rates like motions, it creates case law for them and their districts and everything. Yeah, it's pretty awesome. Another makes it. Yeah. I mean, like this is so I think that that's a great use case of AI because when people are in this business or personal with the narcissist, I think the biggest issue is most people feel lost at a low. And I think that's actually why they stay in these relationships. Yeah. Because from where they are now, where they need to be to get out of it, it just seems like this massive, insurmountable hill they have to climb. Yeah, it creates their timelines, it does everything for them. So then, so that's the leverage piece. And then, um, anticipate is like their triggers, like how to manage their triggers, they teach them everything they need to know about that, like what the narcissist is going to do or the different types of narcissists like we were just talking about. And then you is managing their mindset and creating like how they're going to stay, um, like untriggered and then creating like a hundred percent of thing though they're going to win. And I teach them how to do that. Um, and then I have a certification program so that they can become a coach and teach other people how to do this and create a whole career from it. And then, um, from there, they can become triggers for me in, in my corporate and government programs, which is really awesome. I want to talk about corporate government programs and like how you take some of these learnings and you, and you use them in the workplace. But just secure, just curious, out of all these high net worth people that you worked with when you're doing this family law, what would be some of the, the, the things that you learned from these high net worth ultra high net worth people about narcissism that you think like the average person should know. They're more afraid of you than you are of them. I mean, for one thing, I mean, they didn't attach themselves to you because you have some little value. They attach themselves to you because you have so much. Most people think that they're so, uh, Uber confident and that they're so, um, oh my god, do you, you have an arcade stick up against them and all of that? Like, you're over people saying that to me whenever the more you take back your power, they're so afraid that you're going to figure out that that secret. They're, they're more like the with the Wizard of Oz, who's like behind the curtain, you know, like, and, and the minute you become Glenda, they're good, which like, oh, you have no power over here. Do you see like, do you see when you start to push back against, you know, these very rich, successful narcissists, like they start to crumble, they start to, yeah, they're, they're, they're the worst working for the renegative about. They're like the two-year-old having a tantrum in the floor. That's really how manifest because they're trying to get the law out of that power. Yes. Tell me, tell me the worst or most interesting story without, without name. Oh, they don't. I, it was, I followed the $2 million apology. So I had a case one time where I was representing this guy who was like one of the biggest developers in Florida and his, we were just about to settle the case and he was going to have to pay like $2 million in Elmoney and the wife was getting a lot of assets as well and at the very end of the night after like 12 hours of mediating. His mediator came in and he pulled me out before I had to talk to my client. He pulled me out into the reception area and he said, Rebecca, I have this like really weird request from the life. But I went and asked you about it first and he's like, she's willing to waive Elmoney. But only if he goes in there and apologizes for everything that he did during a marriage and the way he treated her. I'm like, what's the catch? She goes no patch. She just has, he has to go in there and like sincerely apologize. You like, all right. So I go back in and like, this is what you got to do. You got to go in there and you got to apologize. You got to make it sincere. I'm like, it's okay. He's going to jump at this, right? Yes. So you're self-denial. But yeah. And he goes, I'm not doing that. And the reason she wanted it is because it was going to be monthly over some period of time and she knew that he just going to make her life a living hell every month because it's stringy music hatched and whatever, which is exactly why he wanted it because he wanted some way to continue to get narcissistic supply every month. Keep the thing going. It's like drugs to be so. Yes. Drugs. And I'm like, yes, you are. I'm going to kick your ass goal over there and do it. And just, you know, also, he was going to come back at me and go help me and make me do it. So he's like, so when you're a narcissist to one person, you're a narcissist to everybody. Right. And so I'm like, get over there with my fill. It's tough. He finally gets off. He's like, six five. And so I'm watching him, like, some dog with his tail between his legs, and he gets over there. And he apologizes and she wave alimony. It was worth the dark to get the guy out of her life. And he was about to walk away. He was about to, he was about to not do it. But he did it. I call it the $2 million apology. But that's how much he wanted to hold on. I know how much it was wanted to have to give me. Indeed is a success story partner. Now, if you're hiring, indeed is all you need. Let me give you an example. If I needed to hire a new editor for this show, I'd go to indeed and be super specific. Not just can you edit audio, I'd say I need someone who's edited a conversational podcast for at least three years gets our style and knows our software. Someone who's done this before. And here's the thing with indeed sponsor jobs. I'd get people who fit that description. I'm not digging through resumes when people who've edited one YouTube video. I'm getting actual podcast editors who know what they're doing. People who've worked on shows like ours and can prove it. That's what makes a difference. You get people who actually are what you're looking for. According to indeed data, sponsor jobs posted directly on indeed are 90% more likely to report a higher than non sponsored jobs. And people are finding quality hires right now. In the minute that I've been speaking to you, companies like yours have made 27 hires on indeed, according to indeed data worldwide. Spend more time interviewing candidates who check all the boxes, less stress, less time, and more results now with indeed sponsor jobs. And listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsor job credit to help you get your job. The premium status it deserves at indeed.com slash clary. Just go to indeed.com slash clary right now and support our show by saying you heard about indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash clary terms and conditions apply hiring do it the right way with indeed. HubSpot is a success story partner. Now if you're looking for a new podcast, one of my favorite shows right now is demand to code it. If you're in the B2B marketing space, you need to be listening to this. It's hosted by the team at Blend. They are a demand gen agency. They know what they're doing. They're also part of the HubSpot podcast network. What I love about it is they skip all the theory and they just tell you what's actually working today. So demand gen marketing content linked in at attribution. They talk about real strategies that they are using that you can use today that are working. So if you're an entrepreneur, if you're building a business, if you're really selling anything to anyone, go search demand decoded wherever you get your podcast. Like listen, I think it's hard for people to understand that don't that don't that our narcissist. It doesn't make any sense because you don't have that logic. Yeah. You don't have that logic. Yeah. That's absolutely incredible. I take the two million you to get what he might simulate. I'll say sorry. I don't mind. Yeah. That's crazy. Absolutely. So now I know that a lot of your work has been with people unassuming that are going through a difficult relationships, but there's also people in the workplace. A lot of them. Yeah. Okay. So what's happening with the people and like describe, describe what somebody's experiencing in their in their job. For example, that they come to you, be like listen, I need help. Well, I mean, there's so many, but there's a picker one that comes up a lot, I guess. It comes up a lot. I mean, there's some interesting ones. I mean, I had an interesting one that was in my book, actually, where this one woman, she was a scene level executive who wasn't even looking for a job, actually. And she was enticed to go over to a company in Asia. And she was going to be, she was promised to be CEO of a company in all of Asia. And she went over there several times. It was like a private company, billionaire company. The guy would say that a company that family owned it based in Switzerland, signed ran the Asia side of it. Okay. And she promised for the moon, like you can start a woman division and do all sorts of things. And she loved it. I mean, totally, totally loved her. Okay. So she goes over there. She quits her job. Her husband, she and her husband moved to Hong Kong. Is this where it was going to be based? She gets there. She doesn't even have an office when she gets there. Like they move boxes. Like and the guy isn't even meet with her when she gets there after all this, all this back before if they start paying her the salary. But she doesn't get the title. She tries to meet with the guy. She gets treated badly. They start like putting stuff in her file that she's difficult. Like it was so crazy that she ends up hiring me. And I ended up, because my brother had worked in Hong Kong for years. I ended up referring her to a lawyer that he knew over there and they ended up suing the company. And she got like a pretty good settlement. But she never even got what she wanted over there. It was so crazy. But what's happening there? I don't like, I don't know. She ended up like she finally met with a guy. But she never got the position. She just enticed her over there. And she never got anything that she wanted from it. She just got like, I don't know what the hell he was doing. Is that an example of a narcissist who's looking for a target? Yeah. Like I guess missed with her. He just needed life. Just wanted to put up a job posting for a position to just just mess with her life. Yeah. He didn't even know her before she applied. No. And she was like, went to Wharton. She was see it all with like a fortune, fortune 20 company. It was crazy for twice. Yeah. That's crazy. Yeah. But you know what? It turned out to work in her favor because she started her all business. Yeah. You know, if that was a crazy story too. Like there's so many crazy people out there. What are you? What are you pulling in from like your experience in a hypnosis and these sort of high stakes and negotiations? How did that plan to a company? If you're like a founder or CEO or even somebody within a company? Why would they hire you? What are the things that they can learn from your boss? Yeah. So we teach conflict resolution, you know, Haitian techniques. It's called Harmony Works is the name of the training. Yeah. And we work with the CEO. We work with executive teams. We work with vice presidents. We work with HR departments. And then other teams if they want us to. But I have a pretty big wealth of resources now because I've trained a lot of coaches at this by hundreds, coaches at this point. So right now companies are spending close to $400 billion a year on high conflict employees. And managers are spending up to 42% of their day dealing with high-price lift employees. And so there's, you know, so much money is being spent on this. So there's such a huge need. So does high conflict mean narcissists? No, not necessarily. Because I want to understand the parallels between what you learned dealing with narcissists and how that plays into this high conflict input? I mean, high conflict can mean just somebody who enjoys just, you know, I remember my father-in-law actually, and he, you know, God rest his soul. But he was actually, I don't think he was a narcissist, but I think he was a high conflict. I mean, so, you know, he was like somebody that at dinner, he would get somebody riled out. And, you know, it's just for fun. He was just sort of for fun. And he'd say, no, we're having a conversation. Okay, but he's not a narcissist, but he does like the trigger. Yeah, we always like it. People sort of upset. And, you know, and it was like kind of annoying. Yeah. Right? But some people are just like that and just trying to store the pot kind of people. And so they see that 10% of the population is high conflict. That's what's causing companies for a billion dollars. Yeah. And that doesn't count the people. So 15% of the population has a personality disorder that lacks empathy. So that's partially narcissism. Yeah. There's, you know, roughly 6% of the population has NPE. But then there's other personality disorders that lack MDE. So that could be bipolar, the other, you know, sociopaths or whenever that lack empathy. Right? So that's a pretty big part of the population. So you'd lack some fee. And then that's, and then I'm assuming outside of what you work on in your train, most managers, there's been 42% of your time. It's a small portion of their team that's causing the most headache for this manager. They have no idea how to deal with it. And they're just like, oh, my goodness, like, this person is performing. They're hitting their KPIs in the business or hitting their numbers or targets, whatever. But they're causing a ton of headache. Yeah. And so they, and a lot of people up managers, and as you know, or others lack foundry, or you know, they don't. And I was one of those people, to be honest with you, in the past, I don't have that issue anymore, but with lack foundry. So like, for example, in the past, I would have an employee who would maybe, I have a sick child. So I can't function. I can't do this, whatever. And so they wouldn't hit their numbers. What they wouldn't do what they're supposed to do. They would have performed at work. And, and, you know, sometimes that there's like narcissistic tendencies around that kind of the victim narcissist, the vulnerable narcissist, right? And, and you go, oh, well, I, I don't want to be perceived as not a bit person. I can't hold them to, yeah. Okay. You know, like managers were humans. And then it was, it doesn't exist humans. Oh, well, I would, am I not empathetic if I don't. So I'm not going to hold them to account for that. Well, you know, you have to hold them to account. You can be a good person. And, and care about them. But you, this is a business. Yeah. So you have to hold them to account. Yeah. That's tough. And I think also some managers are probably scared about somebody has like, somebody has a story, but I was going to like, they're scared to make a move because you see people getting sued left, right in the center for saying the wrong thing or firing the person for the wrong reason. So you get scared because you're an honor. It's just easier to deal with the headache, right? Then to deal with the bigger headache, the potential bigger headache, the thing in the, but if you have accountability trackers, which is what we create, everybody's understands at these are the accountability trackers and everybody contributes to creating accountability trackers and everybody holds everybody to account for it. Then it's, it's, it's agnostic. It's, it's, this is what it is. So part of the strategy is first of all empowering people to say, listen, you have to hold people accountable. If it doesn't matter, if they're narcissists, narcissistic tendencies, just high conflict, some sort of other really high conflict personality trader or neurological trade, you have to hold people accountable. Accountability trackers are one way to do it because then you have the data. You have the data, but before we even get there, we also create core principles, core visions, core values. So which everybody contributes to creating. So the high conflict person to contribute to that creation. Exactly. That's far. So what are, what are those? Okay, we all have integrity. We all have, you know, and everybody creates what that's good to be. So I'm, you know, what are some of the words that we're going to create, what, you know, usually it's things like vision or we all have accountability or we all have integrity. We do what we say. We're going to do when we say we're going to do it. But, you know, and it's not something that we throw in a drawer. It's something that we actually are going to state every day or we use it. We say it on our team medium. We're going to, like, it's an active document. It's an active living, breathing thing that we work from that we are that. Okay. So then once they co-create and then there's accountability. And is there anything that, an hour and assuming once you have the accountability tracker and you understand whether or not they're performing, then obviously if they're not performing, then that's an easy, it's not an easy, but it's like at least there's a light at the end of the tunnel for this manager who's dealing with this person. Right. What do you do if they are performing, but they're a high-coffatic person? They don't, they don't get to stay, right? Because there's, that's part of what they look at every single week, right? Well, it's not just accountability in terms of because there's this result. Right. It's communication. How do they communicate? It's how do they interact with each other? There's, they create, part of what they do over the 12 weeks is they create a team-success playbook and the team-success playbook looks at a lot of things. They don't look at just how they're performing as far as their sales goals. Yeah, yeah. It's their communication goals. It's how they interact with each other. It's their, it's several things. They look at several factors. It's not just and it's not just money. Yeah, no, I understand. So that's actually how you get the outcome that you're looking for. Because I think that is how are they going to measure that? Yes, understood. Because that's the difficult thing. It's the how do you measure it? How do you measure something? This is the incentive. Do you create KPIs? Yeah, I think that if I think about my corporate career, which I haven't worked in a company for a while now, but I don't think things have changed that much. I think that managers are so focused on numbers and KPIs and business metrics that they led a lot of other shit slide. Right. And I think that that in the short term, they're thinking very short term, well, I'm going to hit my numbers. I'm going to look good. But they don't realize that that's demoralizing your entire team. Right. It's right. And it productive. It productive. Productivity of the whole team. Right. And any long term, it's actually going to hurt your business numbers and more than that that it helps. The whole idea of it is to create a culture that inspires a culture that empowers, a culture that creates vision, a culture that people want to come to, a culture that feels like abundance, a culture that feels like a mission, culture that feels like high vibration. Yeah. Yeah. And you can tell when it stocks it. Yeah. You can tell when it's not. And sometimes it also comes from the manager too. Well, it has to come from top down. No, I'm saying sometimes a negative. Come right. Right. Everybody has to want it to be there. Right. Because what happens is if everybody is on board, then not one person who's toxic just cycles out because it's a vibrational thing. Yeah. His, you know, like everybody is tuned into 107.3 that person is 88.5 just can't. So you've seen that. So when you set this up properly, you see the assholes kind of self-selected out because they can't use the left out because it's a vibrational thing. I would see that, you know, radio waves can't travel with light waves. That's so interesting. So that's another thought too. If you create the culture that is that strong, you are naturally going to attract the right people and reject the wrong people. 100%. And sometimes it's people because, you know, you might say, you know, you know, that person was the performer or whatever, but if that person's toxic, you don't want that person there. You'll attract the right people that way. Sometimes you got to burn a little off to get the people that you really want. You got to clear the energy to get the right energy in. I believe that. And I think that when companies start, when the founders just starting out, they have the best intentions. I mean, unless the founder has problems. But say the founders like a well-intentioned person and they're good person, not narcissists, not an eye conflict person. When they first started out, there's like, you know, like one layer beneath them. I mean, that and everything's okay. But it's when you start to add on layers and layers and layers and the loose track of everything that's happening. Yeah. And I think that if you don't do this purposefully, then it's just chance, whatever happens, whatever direction your organization tastes. I think that if you don't set these these these call these cultural sort of signals up right away and you don't build them with your team like you're mentioning, then the culture just takes form of like the lowest denominator higher. Yeah. If you're not careful. You can't be afraid to build what you want to build. Yeah, you can't hold on to. No, you have to you have to always have this abundance mindset. Even when you're hiring, like, you know, what happens is you'll you'll you'll find an employee that's qualified to do the job. And they can, but they're an asshole. But they're like, they're very qualified to do the job. Yeah. And that's the first mistake. And then you hire that person. And they'll make the money. But they'll they'll they start to poison everything. Yeah. I'd made that mistake. And I think everyone has everyone has because when you're when you're starting your so stressed about how do I just keep the lights on? How do I just keep this business home? Everything else seems secondary. Yeah. That's a big mistake. Huge mistake. What what are the differences between high conflict people that you'd have to do? Or what are the I guess the lessons that would be different? We dealing with a high conflict person in a business versus a personal relationship. What are things that are the same? What are the things that would be a little bit different? And how you mean? Is there any difference at all or no? I mean, that's what I'm trying to thumbs back at back to boundaries, right? I mean, and just your own self worth again. I mean, I know for me, I just made the decision and never dimming a light for anyone ever again. I mean, you know, and just not allowing anyone to be humble. Yeah. But also knowing who I am, Renewing humble, but being okay with if somebody wants to be forever is okay. You know, so I think just being the same in whatever relationship you're in, whether it's like owning my business or my personal life too, and not being afraid that that person's going to go or prevert like to pay. Do you ever find yourself slipping? That for worse. I'm a human being. How do you bring yourself back when you've done the work and you know all the things you're supposed to know and you still slip? How do you bring yourself back? Well, first, I think surrounding yourself with the right people. I mean, I have really good people around me. I have really amazing friends, amazing mentors. I listen to good audiobooks, podcasts. Right, the renin folks. I meditate, pray, this doing the work, journaling. Yeah. I think the clouding your thoughts. Yeah. I'd graded to the journals constantly. You know, you're just doing the work. Well, it would be one thing that somebody who has been in a relationship, is in a personal with a narcissist in the past or is in one right now. Not one thing they can do to remove themselves from that relationship, because we've spoken about that. What's one thing they can do for themselves right now that can make sure that it won't happen again? I mean, you mentioned a couple that what's one that you think maybe helped you more than others around yourself with the right people and just keep your vibrational energy high. You know, what rituals are you doing to make sure that you keep your vibrational energy high? You know, one of the things that I do when I'm training my coaches is seen from your future, not from your past. So right out, okay, it's December 31st, 2025. What are you celebrating? What, what, you know, because otherwise you're going to have a default future, right? We're so programmed to think from the past, we'd ever realize that. So what are you celebrating in December 31st, 2025? Okay, now I'll think from that quarterly and now I think from it monthly, now I think from it daily, like, who are you? Who are you showing up as? What intentions you have? I even do this with my team every day. Like, okay, what's your intention? What intention are you bringing to this conversation? We're talking about this too for your sales seem like you've got to believe that you can hit those numbers. You've got to believe in the product. You've got to believe in even close X amount of revenue per day per week per month of a quarter. So it's all so even even if all these lessons that we're talking about for protecting your light, protecting yourself, they all living from your future, it applies to relationships, but it also applies to success across everything else. Yeah, I mean, I say to my team every day, what intention are you bringing to this conversation today? What intention, what is your word for today? What is your word for this week? You know, like, so being super intentional about everything that you do, because just presencing that constantly, because otherwise, you know, back to old self, old self. Always. Yeah, it's not careful. But you're not careful. Yeah, and I think that's also why it's so important, like you mentioned, to write people, write mindset, freeing space to think. Yeah, I think that one thing that leads to people staying in bad relationships is them trying to find, it's funny because tell me if I'm right or wrong. So when you're in a bad relationship, you're trying to find almost like an escape immediately, but not an escape from the relationship you would try it by the mental escape. So you cluttered your mind with all these different things. You're always, you don't want to sit with your own thoughts, because you're not happy with your own thoughts. Right. So you try and watch TV or you drink or you do all these things to distract yourself. Yeah. But when you keep distracting yourself, you don't have clear thought. You can't put effort into sitting through these uncomfortable thoughts. You have to then also make good decisions. And then you just end up almost like in as always constantly, distracted world, never actually progressing because you, you have to go through sitting with your own thoughts, not being distracted, so you can actually make these good decisions. Right. And I feel like you just keep distracting yourself again and again and again and again, and that can go on for years. Yeah. And I think that the journaling, the meditation, the if you're in a bad situation, maybe not drinking on the weekend and take some time to go for a while, like all these things seem so small, but they all create space for you to have like hard conversations with yourself. Yeah. Well, you know, you are talking to amazing people of you guys. Yeah. Right. So you're constantly with high vibration every day. Yeah. I'm very fortunate. This is the job for me. Yeah. This is not the norm for most people where they have these great enlightening conversations where they get to learn from the smartest people on this planet. This is not a normal job for 99.99 99% of people. But yes, that's, I mean, selfishly, I learn more than than any of it because I asked, but you're right. It's very high vibration. And if you can emulate this in some way, I think it's I think that you should. Yeah. I do believe that constantly low vibrations, always distracting, having cloudy mind, cloudy thoughts, like I don't think that's that's not a way out of anything. What's the one biggest lesson somebody can start you on this podcast? The biggest lesson is not just one person that saw me this. It's been a lesson that I found shows up again and again and again. It's one of self belief. So the first person to teach me this was actually Anthony Scaremuchi because I asked him how he has so much like confidence in the moods. Yeah. It's only this lesson. And I've heard it like come up again and again. And I asked him, I can't remember the exact question, but it was something on the lines of you know, what gives you confidence in life? And he says, well, if I went back and now obviously, if you don't know, he is Scaremuch, I'm going to call him the moocher. He's Scaremuchi. He had a he's a big finance guy. Obviously, he runs self-conferences worth hundreds of millions. Very successful. I was also at a Trump's original director at Unicase for 12 days. Thank you for that. But you said if I could go back to Brooklyn with nothing but it was like a t-shirt and no connections and no money and then nothing at all, I could I could build back again exactly what I built the first time. And he just has unbelievable confidence in himself. Yeah. And belief in himself. And I think that that is the single most important X factor in anybody's success because the B the B do that. Yeah. Exactly. You have like he he believed in his he's so confident that if he went back to no money, no connections, nothing you could just do it again. So that with that mindset allows you to operate differently in this world. And when all when you do believe in yourself to that degree, almost to like a delusional amount, most people say that's a that's delusional. Yeah. You have to be a little bit of delusion that it's a believe in yourself that much. But I think that's good. If you do believe in yourself that much, you don't put up with all the bullshit. Yeah. You know what? I used to be stuck broke our firmordid family. I didn't know loads ago. That's a while back then. Yeah. Now it's busy, right? And I worked for this top guy. He was like the top guy at Morgan Stanley. I was on his team. And he was like kind of like that. He's almost Frank Avera. And if he's watching this, you can be so happy that I told him. So this sort. And he always said he was very happily married. But he always said that if he got to Borussia, it was Wi-Fi. Every penny. Yeah. Because he said you would make it all back. I like that. That's good energy. Yeah. That's a very good energy. Yeah. That's a beautiful place to operate from. I don't think many people think like that. I wish more people would. I think people should give themselves the permission to think like that to have them in self-confidence. And here's where millions of points. Yeah. It doesn't matter if you're entrepreneurial or not when you just operate from that place. I am enough. I can do it. Other people have done it before me. They're no different than me. And I can figure it out. Whatever it is I'm trying to do. When you operate from that place, you move differently. And you just all these toxic people that we're talking about for over the past hour. So all these toxic people, you don't even give them the time of day. Because you feel no need to have that nonsense in your life. And I think that you just, there's just a much less, a much lower chance of these people to having any place in your life when you have that level of self-confidence. And I think that it's also tough for people. I mean, how do you just develop that level of self-confidence? I don't know if you have ideas, but my thought has always been to track your wins and pay attention to how like fucking amazing you are and how much you've won at life. And even if you feel like in the moment, things aren't going as great as you want them to be. If you look back at all the different times that you've won, it gives you a little bit of self-confidence. And then you go in again, and then you get a little bit more self-confidence. But I think it's just a, it's a flywheel that I wish more people wouldn't best time and energy into building. So I'm going to talk about what I did on this last kind of flip up that act. Trigger. Which is, you know, I had practiced law for eight years before I got into Mordez-Saint-Nil. And then I went back. So I was there for like a couple years. And then I went back to start my own practice as a lawyer. And I was in Naples. And I was so freed that everybody in Naples was going to think I was such a flake. Because you know, it's like a kind of a small in the community. And I'm kind of like Joji you and ever. And I had gone to my business coach and I said everybody in Naples is going to think that's such a flake. And she said to me, people will think what you tell them to think. She said you can tell them to think that you're a flake. Or you can tell them to think that you're the over-family law attorney that has a financial background. So you're actually more qualified than any other family of all attorney in Naples. Which story would you like to tell? That was like, oh, maybe I'll tell the past stories. And so that's what I did. And within two years, I had the top-scale little practice in Naples, which is very, very lucrative. And I actually represented the owner of the biggest Mercedes dealer in the actions of the world. I represented the owner of the founder of the multi-pot restaurants and all the massive huge clients and all sorts of people that were definitely not going to be hiring. But if I have represented myself as, oh my god, I'm so sorry. I know I'm a flake, you know, like that's what people were seeing. So it's kind of like exactly what you're describing, but the other side of your life, people will see what you represent. See about believing yourself. We've got believers. There's no belief. That's what that's see. Where do people connect with you? Where do you want to send them social website all of that? So I have a free Crush My Negotiation prep playbook, which you can get at winmynegotiations.com. It's like, we're really good. You definitely recommend people get that on my book. You can get that. Go, I have several books on Amazon. My website is rebeckazon.com. My YouTube is rebeckazon.tv. My Instagram rebeckazon. My website rebeckazon. I'll put all the show notes there. Yeah. Good. If there's anything, the last question I'd like to ask, out of all the things that you've learned across your career, your life, it could be about conflict resolution, narcissism, just like sort of personal development and growth. Say you could only leave one lesson with your kids. Out of all the lessons that you've learned, what would that lesson be in a while? I mean, you define your value. You don't get your goals. You get your standards. So I mean, it kind of comes back to what you were seeing, which is people will see what you think. People will think what you're telling to think. Your value is defined by you. You can persuade the energy of the room and people will will see that. They'll feel it. It's an energy. It's a heart energy. It's not a brain energy.