Mike Liut, NHL Goalie & Founder of Octagon Hockey | Life After The NHL

Welcome to the success story podcast. I'm your host, Scott Clary. On this podcast, I have candid interviews with execs, celebrities, politicians and other notable figures, all who have achieved success through both wins and losses, to learn more about their life, their ideas and their insights. I sit down with leaders and mentors and unpack their story to help pass those lessons onto others through both experiences and tactical strategy for business professionals, entrepreneurs and everyone in between. Without further ado, another episode of the success story podcast. Thanks again for joining us today. I'm sitting down with Mike Leute, who is a former professional ice hockey gold tender and current managing director of octagon hockey. So following his extremely impressive 15 year career, the Connecticut hockey hall of Famer earned his juris doctorate from Detroit College of Law pivoting from professional ice hockey player to lawyer. Today, he is responsible for the negotiation of over $328 million in active NHL contracts, managing the contracts of some of the most prolific and well known players in the NHL. Mike, thank you so much for joining. Walk me through starting with where you first started playing hockey, where that passion came from all the way through to what you're doing now at octagon. I played in a little town outside of Toronto in the 60s, and it was called Woodbridge, which is now I know Woodbridge. Yeah, of course. Yeah. So it was a town of 3,000 people and maybe we drew from 15,000 people to Kleinberg and so forth, but we would have our banquet at the end of the year and the commissioner or the leader of the association, our entry into the OMHA said that education is important and one out of any gave some denominator, which was rather large, make it to the NHL. And I was stunned. And I remember thinking, well, he didn't say zero. And I think that that's relatively consistent with players that, you know, that they've all I think at one point had that conscious at a young age. And maybe, you know, it's not something that you express in Calibur, it's just in your heart, right? This is going to do that. And it's certainly naive, but I mean, if you can't dream, right? And that's sort of the the seeds of success. I think you have to come to a point where you decide, this is what I want to do. And whether you actually do it or not, I don't know, but you certainly try and leave no stone unturned. Obviously, there's lots of people that fight and the pyramid gets rather small, but I won't even go as far as to stay self-belief. I won't get into the psychology of it. It's just something that you do. You start in a direction, then you move forward. And along the way, there's always going to be people who have a significant impact on your career. And likely goes all the way, runs the gamut. And I certainly have that. When I'm talking to players that I represent, have that representative and we talk about this process of moving from amateur hockey to pro to to making it in the angel staying in the angel. I see it's a fluke. A part of it is just a fluke. You just had enough good things going on in your life and you met enough people that it happened. And I look at coaches and I had a number of coaches that just I don't know. They believed in you. They saw something in you. They gave you the opportunity or allowed you an opportunity. An opportunity can be pleading. So it's what you do with it. But I had, you know, Ron Mason. I decided to go to college. I had Ron Mason who winds up being one of the fighters. When retired, he was the winning coach in college hockey history. He didn't recruit me. We kind of found each other. He had a profound effect. I'm playing pro hockey, Floyd Smith. I'm in the WHO and he comes up to me and he gives me that kid. I think you can play 70 games. Donnie Edwards played 70 games for me above all of that. And played 20 games in you. And you're like, I don't know, coach, I never played more than 25. But hey, I'd share like the opportunity. And you know, that's that's how it works. There's a significant degree of good fortune. But more importantly, good people that had a major impact on your career. And it just it doesn't doesn't stop. One of my teammates, my first year as Pat Stapleton just passed away. Great, great guy. I mean, really understood the game, thought about the game. And we came from college, college. Nobody really knew that much about college. Even though players like Red Barons and already played and retired, they, you know, it's still sort of a US college hockey with an unknown. Pat said to me one day, everybody in hockey will give you a reason why you should fail. It's just up to you, whether you believe them or not. Nothing could be more true than that, right? And hockey, we say, players too small, too slow, he's timid. They come up with every, every law that they can write instead of focusing on what they can do, right? And then deciding whether they can use that. It's the flaws that jump out at them. But really, it's just somebody's opinion that says, hey, I don't think you can do it. And if you believe them, you won't do it, right? So that's been as much for me, what I remember, right? I have two conversations with my dad about well, playing hockey or pro hockey. And I'm, so I graduated from bowling green. I'm going to start my pro career. And he, he said to me, I said to him, hey, dad, what if I'm not good enough? I mean, after all this, what, you know, it just ends right when we, I want it to start. And his immediate response was, well, I hope you're manned up to look at the mirror and just accept what it is and move on with the rest of your life because no matter how good you are and how long you think you can play hockey, they're still going to be the rest of your life. You're not going to do this forever. So it was that, that, this is what I want to do. Okay, here's the support, go and do it, right? And know that you're going to have to do something else. That's why you went to school, right? This is not going to last forever. And, you know, that's all of the, all those little pieces, the coaches and your parents and teammates that have this, this, they come to you at the right time with the, with the right words to encourage you to remove the anxiety to, you know, allow you to go forward, right? Whether it's Boyd Smith opening the door or my dad saying, hey, if you don't make it, it's okay, right? Last people don't make it, you played a long time, right? And if you don't make it, or if you do make it, you still have to do the rest of what you're going to do for the rest of your life. So don't lose sight of that. And it, it's, you know, those are, and to bring that really full circle, you know, I had ruptured discs in my back. It was time. I was going to be 37. My career was over. I knew it, the cost of trying to continue far too great, physically, emotionally, family, the old deal. So I said, my dad asked me, is it, are you going to go to law school? And I was like, wow, I don't know, dad. I said, you know, if I go to law school, three years, I'm going to be 40. Just dying looked at me and said, if you don't go to law school in three years, how old are you? 40, 40. Doesn't change. You know, it was like, it's the perspective that, you know, that your support group bring. And, and here's the, the, the thing that, you know, I left hockey thing. I can't believe that I survived that law, right? And it really, to a certain degree, it's just a matter of a 15 years, right? You're 15 years, yeah. You know, and you just, keep going until you can't go any further. But, but here it is. And, a nutshell, it's just like, start going to do it. I don't know if you're going to be successful. Don't waste your time thinking about it. Just start, right? And there's things in life that, I like movies, finding forests, right? We're Sean Connery, helping young kids learn to write. And he just starts banging on the typewriter. And his whole thing was just start, just start typing. The thoughts will come to you. So just start in your career. I don't know if this is going to be your career. You're going to step sideways to move forward. You might have to go back to change direction. It doesn't matter. Just start and, and invest as much as you have to invest in it. Keep working it and keep moving forward. Don't bother looking right or left. Keep going forward. Move forward. And that's, and that's sort of when I look back at it, 64, I'm looking backwards saying, that's all it was. I didn't think that I would be doing what I'm doing now. It was the last thing that I wanted to do. Didn't want to do it. I just happened to fall into a really a great company, a very good friend of my Brian Lawton. I started with Ocagon. And I'm going to start this hockey position for them with my little fledgling company. And why don't you do it with me? And I had been approached by a few players to handle their region contract that summer. I just left a PA. Why not? Right? Let's move it here. I thought I'd do it a few years. Right? And then I don't know. And then just one thing morphed into another. And 22 years later, you know, here we are. You know, it's a really, it's a really incredible story because I think that a lot of people have, first of all, not a lot of people achieve the level of success in sports and hockey and, you know, and go pro and get paid to do what they love. But then also, you manage transition into a second, a second successful career managing the contracts of why right now, I looked at, I looked at a Forbes article. It said 328 million in active NHL contract. I don't know if that's gone up or down or whatnot. But you still, you're managing a fair amount of player, you know, player, player livelihoods and responsibility there. How did you, you know, how did you become, how did you transition? So it seems effortlessly. Yeah, I know it definitely wasn't effortless. At one point, my friends asked my wife if we were still married because they never saw me with her. So it had that, my goal when I retired from playing hockey, my goal strategy was not to take a lot of time off. You know, financially, we're wearing that spot, right? So, you know, I met with, again, I was talking about good now, we just went through a strike. You know, I was very involved with a player association when I played for the last six or so years. I found it very interesting. And talking to him, you know, he said, you should go to law school. He said, if you go to law school in 20 years, you'll look back on it. And it will be, you'll say, it's the best thing that I've done. Best decision I've met. And it didn't take 20 years. I enjoyed the experience. It allowed me to be at home and still moving forward. So it was, you know, a time when, when I had, whatever I was going to set aside, and, you know, you're not making any money and you're spending a lot of money. But, you know, we had set ourselves up to be able to afford a transition. And, you know, it was, again, there's, there's another individual coming into your life, getting you pointed in a direction. And that's important. I've often said that through, I know hockey players, but I would say, yeah, please, in general, the same principle. The guys who played a long time, right? And they reached a reasonable level of success that allowed them to play a long time. They can get up every day and they can grind. And they can be successful. They can change direction. They don't understand how to get to work within an organization. When you get out of hockey, the, the issue is this, you can play hockey. You have Peeley-Bannum, Midget, Jr., or college, HLNH, the stepping stones are there. You just have to fall. When you retire, the path is gone. You don't know where to go. And, and it's a, the other part to it emotionally is, you immediately realize that you no longer belong in that group, right? That's an earned society that you get to play in. And when you're no longer a player, you're a retire player, you're a long, all those good things. But in your heart, you know that you don't walk through that dressing room door anymore. That's not your spot, right? So you're dealing with all of that, and it feels isolated. And it did to me. It felt like I was completely isolated. So it's important to have something to come back to and to start moving in a direction. For me, it was going back to school. There were a few nights reading in the library until 10 o'clock at night where you just look at the ceiling and go, what have I got myself into? Fortunately, I told enough people that I couldn't quit, that I was committed to the, to the program. And, and then it just, okay, now I've got a degree. Now I graduate, I passed the bar, and now my dad looks at me and says, well, now you've got to figure out how to make some money with that degree. It's not worth much if you can't do that. So, you know, I was with the players association. We were going to, you know, we had a grand plan. It didn't quite work out that way. You know, I didn't stay with it. But, you know, you keep, you know, this presented itself. And, you know, when you, there's a door opens, another one might close, but whatever your decision is, it's a decision that you make where you, I'm going to step forward and I'm going to make it the right decision. Right? That's the other piece to it. You can't look for the right decision. You have to find something that you, you, you find appealing. And, when you step in that direction for the time that you're there, you have to, you have to make it a great decision. You have to, but you're all into it. So, it's not, you know, I, I have to, I haven't been in school in 16 years. I'm going to go to law school. I have to pass the entrance exam. We all said, I took a course. It didn't make any sense. You know, I was like, whatever. And, and it's all, you know, it's a, it's a time test, right? It's, you know, I have to move. And there's a lot of questions and not much time to answer. So, I would get up every morning, get me to go off to school. I would sit down and I would do an LSAT exam every day or half of it or, or whatever it was, I forget how it was broken in seconds. But I would do a section at time and make sure that I could answer a section of questions within the allotted time. And I did it every day for probably a month or two, right? And you just pound away until I, you start to, you know, you get your rhythm. You get your rhythm in terms of the cadence of answering questions. You get a feel for the type of questions and where your weaknesses are. And that's just preparation. So, you know, it's, it's like everything was, it bucked everything I learned. I learned, you know, everything I learned in life, you learned before your five or something, it was just like that. It's like everything I know on a hot, you know, in life, I learned when I was by the time, you know, whatever, right through hockey. So, same lessons, transfer, you take the good experiences and you build upon them. Then after, after that, so, you know, you have your JD, you never actually, did you ever practice large and just go right into managing? And I guess a lot of the contracts actually could require some legal revision or whatnot or super, so did you? Yeah, I stayed with the Players Association. So, I was working part time with the Players Association while I was going to school. I was also coaching at Michigan as a volunteer goalie, which was a lot of fun, but you know, just a hobby. And then after graduation or writing the bar, then I stayed with a PA, you know, did a lot of distance work, working from home, the things that we're doing now. And then, you know, a couple of years after that, I decided to leave the PA and then that was the choice, right? And I didn't have a choice. I could have said, I could have practiced law in earnest and looking back on it, it's the one thing that, you know, way I wish I had, right? So, when I have a young person call me or contact me, however you contact me, it says, I'm going to law school. I want to be a player. And I'm telling him it's an end game. It's not the beginning. You went to law school to be a lawyer. Now that you have your you pass the bar exam, I'll go be a lawyer because when you pass the bar exam, you have all this black layer law, but you don't know how to do it. And you have to learn how to execute as a lawyer. And I tell them to go find the most complicated involved law from the work for and dive into it and put your 80 hours in every or whatever it is every week and really grind through it. At the end of five years, you want to make a lateral and move in another direction that you can make that decision at that time. But first, develop some skills outside of you went to law school, you passed the bar exam, okay, you're a smart enough person now to develop some skills and experience. And then if you want to come to the sports in general, actually, then fine. But it's forces is essentially a bit of a dead end world like it's here. And you know, where do you go from here? I think that there is something after a sports career and management, whatever. If you've got a skill set coming into it. So that's my advice. I would have liked to have done it. I started representing players, you know, two years after law school. Again, it was, it's just, it's something I started. I had the background for it with everything that I've done, playing the players associate with one school, practicing a little bit. And then I moved into representing these players, and then within Occagon, I wound up having the opportunity to do a few other things when we hit the walk out, you know, four or five, I was, you know, participating in other areas using my law degree. And then I eventually started managing the hockey division. We we expanded it. We were in a good position because of the stability of Occagon. We were, Alan Walsh joined us and shortly after that, you know, we kept expanding adding to other players with him, Rachaelette, and Ben Andy Scott, and we're we're we're growing our team. And then Ben Hank has been joined us. The first in California was another agency and you know, we just, you know, your success is, it's a lot of hard work. It took a lot of years to get there. It took a lot of school. It took a couple of years. The players association took a handful of years to build up a practice. And along the way, you know, it's a fortune of having the opportunity with Occagon having the ban with the ad additional agents and very quickly expand a footprint from, you know, you know, 10 fault players with Brian Lawton to 100 players with with Occagon. And then the Patricia and a lot of our, we have a mature client talent goes up it goes down. But you know, we built, we've had a chance to build an organization that has a significant impact in the national hockey league and and and on our client. And you know, so our philosophy, if you will, is that we're managing their careers both on and off the ice. No, I'm not on the ice, but they're outside of their hockey. You know, because it's important for players to athletes come into professional sports, there's going to, there's a number of great things come their way, including it's going to be very lucrative. But the key is what do you leave the game with that critical because they, regardless of how much money they make and there's far more much, much more money in the game now than there was in we play. And they can retire. The problem is they're so good at what they do. They're so used to being in the style and being in control and having a material impact, they're not just going to write off in the sunset and say, okay, I'm going to do nothing. I'm 37 years old and I'm retired. Never going to happen, right? They're going to have to do something. So, you know, if they have enough money that's fine, they can transition if they don't have enough money, they're going to have to create another career. And that's been a big part of our success. And I was I'm curious now as an agent and managing all these careers, what are some of the largest challenges that you have with the players or the players experience in their careers? Well, you know, it can run the gamut, right? I mean, certainly it's established themselves. I mean, players who have, you know, Patrick Liney steps into the asshole Hockey League, you know, he scores 80 goals in two years, right? I mean, that's, you know, his, his issues are, you know, his career is starting to establish these on its way. There's so many more players that that have to learn the process and sort of walking them through the, you know, the top parts, the rough parts. And maybe they have to change the way they play the game. I mean, everybody comes to throw Hockey's coming with a degree of talent. They were the better players at the level they played below the NHL. So, that doesn't mean that they're going to be a top six four. They're not going to necessarily play on the power play. They're going to have to adjust. You know, that's one of it. And one of the issues that, that, you know, derail a career. And then, and he's at top 10 for, and, you know, his career is off and running. And, you know, there's, I don't say generational, but, you know, you're, you're not concerned too much with their own eyes. And, you know, there's everybody's off ice. You know, they have challenges where we think that they're adults, right? They look like adults, they make money like adults, but they're still kids. And they have the issues that, you know, decisions and everything else that kids make. And so, you're, you're, you're always managing that piece of it, right? They're going to go through, you know, the 22, 23, 24, they're, they're doing those adult things, right? They're buying homes and buying cars. They're, you know, there's, you know, paying for, yeah, colleges and things of that nature and getting them to understand, uh, making them financially savvy is, is important, right? They have to, they have to understand the, that, that this is not going to be forever, that, you know, you're, you're making acts on your contract. You're not making that number. Your, your partner, the government is taking a chunk out of it. And, and this is what it's going to cost when you're, uh, you know, to, to get through your life. And then, and they, they understand that or it comes, it becomes more clear when they, when they approach retirement, when they can see that this is going to end. And then they've got three children, they start adding up the cost of, of education and, and all of these things. And, and I always tell you, you have no idea how much money you're going to spend from 35 to 55 raising your kids, right? And you just, you just can't put your head around. So, um, that's the gamut of, you know, at the course, you can get into, um, especially with Mary. Sometimes, of course, I get divorced. I mean, there's all, there's, there's trauma in their life, right? But they're just so much, they're so young. I think that's like the, the thing that I'm pulling from this, like they're just so young and they have to make all these you, but that's, that's what the most professional athlete, like you see that quite a bit, like financial issues and whatnot when they retire. Is there, they're, they're forcing, right? They grow up, um, they step on the ice and they look like adults, like in control of their world. And then step off the ice, they're off the field or, you know, their kids, they're very quickly, you can see that they're, and they're mature individuals, but they're between two, right? They just have the experience, you know, to manage the things that they will be exposed to. And then, of course, you're now we're in the world of branding and, and, you know, players, the social media and all of that that can be good and bad. And, um, you know, you really just find, you know, I want to say this is you're a surrogate parent, right? You want them to experience life, make mistakes, just not make too big a mistake. You know, that's sort of the job. Now, now what's now, um, I just have a couple more, I guess, a question related to like the industry and, and the state of the industry, um, because you're so involved in it. What do you see happening with the current pandemic, with the way we can't go into stadiums anymore and arenas and, and, and watch a game? Do you think, do you think that there's going to be major disruption or is there plans to find, you know, come to some sort of, uh, way to keep business working in the interim? What's, what's your take on that? The pandemic is, uh, not knowing, right? I mean, medical personnel, with don't wear a mask. Now it is a mask. It doesn't, and this, this, it's so novel that, that, you know, world, everybody is guessing it, that how to handle it. What's going to exacerbate it, how to could tell it. And, you know, in the world of professional sports, as long as they're telling us we have to hand six feet apart from each other. It's very hard for me to envision how we're going to stick shoulder to shoulder with each other and, and watch a hot, or any, any sport. Yeah. It's, it, we're in a, we're in a moment where there's, you know, uncertainty is an understatement. Of course, we're, you have to be boyed by the amount of money being thrown at vaccines and therapeutics and a lot of brilliant people in the world. And the more they wrestle with it, you know, we're counting on them being able to control this. And I don't know what control means. But I think that we have to have the security that we can go to about not likely get sick. We do get sick, treatable, and out of the hospital. And do you think the players can play? Even without a crowd? I think, I think the, well, I think the players can play in the proposed NHL conclusion to the 1920 season that they can do, right? If they can get the players into the bubble, and everybody is free of COVID, the players can stay in the bubble. Then logically, if they don't let anybody else in the bubble, they should be okay. Can you do that for a season? I have my doubt. But you may have to start next season, later in the year, December, January, and start without fans. You know, if we're on the edge of moving in that direction, much like they've done in our state, I'm in Michigan, right? We had some, you know, we're on the front end of it. There was New York. Our airport is heavily traveled internationally, and I think we've probably got it from both sides of the world. And at one point, the county that I live in, Oakland County, had more cases than 31 other states. That was great here. So the governor, I think, did a great job guessing, of course, drawing the line, different spots, but shepherding the state through a crisis. To the point where now we're starting to open up, you know, if we're still fluctuating, we still, you know, there's still players on the western side of the state that hit the eastern side of the state with Detroit first. And I think that'll be very much like the NHL. We may have to start next year without fans, but hoping that that Canada's way ahead of the United States in terms of their management. And we have to get to a point where we slowly move in a direction that by the end of whatever the end of next year, or whenever the end is, that we maybe we have more and more fans and we're fully occupied when it gets to play off. So, you know, I think that's probably a best case scenario, and it's going to be difficult to thread that needle, but, you know, there's, there's many businesses that are in that, in that same, you know, it's hospitality, it's entertainment, it's airlines, we're all, we're all going to be fine when we get to that same spot. And I guess the last thing I want to ask you sort of some insight questions as to, you know, what you learned over your career, but before I sort of pivot back away from NHL, you know, octagon, what are you personally curious about in the world of of NHL hockey, where the industry is going? And it could be pre-COVID. But are there any trends that you see taking off, anything that's changing to the game that you're interested in right now, or that's relevant? I think that I'm very fond of saying the more things change before they stay the same, and that we've changed a lot of the labels in the game, but the game is still five individuals against five individuals and a goalie at either end. And the game is very much about I'm going to suppress your will with my will. That piece of the game is never going to change. That is the essence of support, of competition. And we have moved in a direction of trying to explain what people that have been in the game see, right? And that is people who can control the puck, who can see the shift in the momentum of the game. And when you look at a team like St. Louis last year, when they win the Stanley Cup, it was just a freight train. I mean, there wasn't anything special. You wouldn't say that they overpowered teams offensively, but they played a very coordinated game, inspired game, and a self-less game. And their spirit matched or suppressed everybody else, and they came away the winner in a closely tested final. We're going to try to, we've tried to explain that through analytics, which is terrific. I think analytics can open some suggestions and refine the game and make it a little bit. It's certainly more interesting, and I think it's the help. It isn't the entire question. The question is not entirely answered by analytics, or even it's just it's hard of. Where analytics, for me, takes on a more meaningful and a game like hockey, when it is so fluid, that if they can perfect the player's relationship to the point, right? So chipping the puck, chipping your jersey, they understand where you are and tracking it, and I think the data that you will mine from that ability will help the game improve. It'll help players understand their deficiencies, coaches appreciate what they're not doing structurally, and it's another layer of for the fans to enjoy, right? It's become more interactive on a level where the real time, because I'm trying to see TV screens with all sorts of data on them. We're in different relationships for that. And I'll give you a quick example. We would say puck possession. You know, analysts came up with puck possession to control the puck. You have greater chance of winning the game. Really? Thanks, tips. We always knew that, right? There's no, there's nothing new there. But if you're going to start putting a clock on somebody controlling the puck or puck possession, if they're controlling the puck along the board, that might be useless, right? Because you have to control the puck in the middle of the exit. So those are the things that I look for analytics to become more informative, more accurate in their explanation of the game. And that's starting to be something that is being incorporated more and more into the training strategy, or even like you mentioned, the data points that fans can engage in. So they put these up on screen now, and they use them in coaching offering. I think there's no, once you have, I think you're going to continue to see that. I think there's going to be more interactive play, you know, beyond gambling, right? That's going to be the next one. But I think it's interactive in this sense of explaining and getting to understand the game and what's really going on. And that's technology. And we're looking at in other areas of players with wearable technology, right? So there's once, you know, you get into a situation where you're monitoring the player. Hey, you can look at it as a negative or you look at it as a positive. I think that I went through my career at the end of my career. We didn't have water on the net. So if you're a goalie and the team didn't take a penalty against, you know, you didn't have a chance to go to the bench and get a shot of water, right? Which is lunacy. They're going to go play 45 minutes and not replace any of the fluids that you're leaking. So the, you know, wearables goes to that, right? And they can monitor. So the point I want to make was at the end of my career, we had a nutritionist come in Washington and make their blood. And it was, you know, mid-season, past 50% of the season was over. And I, so we have a consultation with her and she said, your red blood cells are low. You're a knee vector dehydrated. And I went, yeah, okay. You know, you're okay. And I said, this is how I feel. This is how I am. This is how I am in February. And she's looking at me like, I should fall over. So monitoring those things, teams in the West Coast have had sleep codes if you wanted to. It's someone that's monitoring their sleep pattern, your, your jet lag and nutrition and all of those things, how much you're working, how much you're, you know, where you are in your fatigue level and you need to practice for 40 minutes or 20 minutes or have a day off or you're out of, we used to say you could play yourself out of shape, right? Because you're just playing the game to actually, you know, the game slowed down. I don't know how it happens. Boy, you're not a doctor. It's not a biologist. I don't understand the stuff. I can just tell you that, you know, you get to a point where you say, I feel like I'm out of shape. Now they can, they monitor that. I see this huge advanced players. If they're, you know, they should never be afraid of stuff like that. That's very interesting. I just love getting insight just to where like a whole industry is going in and the tech that they're going to be using. So you thank you for, for, you know, highlighting that because that's a lot of fun to sort of understand and interpret how that's going to change the game and not just change the game, but like augment is probably a better word than change. Okay, I have some questions just to sort of tee up your life experience in your career. So you sort of touched on this before, but what would be some advice that you would give somebody who wanted to go into a career like yours? It could be, I would say somebody who wants to focus after, after they retire or they just want to go into sports management. You mentioned it before, but just highlight that again. Well, you know, I think if you're an athlete, I really think that, you know, you're going to stay in coaching or, you know, you're going to work your way in a management or scouting that's why I mean, you, you have the requisite background for that, but young kids are coming out of college and they're going to go to law school or business school. I still say you have to go and acquire skills, develop skills, acquire experience away from sports and then bring those skills back to sports. And, you know, the best example is you look at commissioners of the various team sports league and they're probably all lawyers, but they're, you know, they had a career, they had another career and brought those skills to the job that they currently have. You're a lawyer, you can, you can wind up in General Council for an entertainer company that has a football team, a very small team. But to, to jump into sports is limiting. So it's a very small business, right? In ticket sales and sponsorships, you have every time, it touches on everything, but it's a small business, right? So your experiences are limited and it's a great job, right? I mean, it's something that's attractive because people identify with it, but there's, you know, and depending on what your, your goals are and your career is, and you have to look at it that way, you have to say, okay, I'm going to, I'm going to move in this direction is this a career, right? And if it's not a career, where do I go from here? What skills am I going to develop in this job? What experiences am I going to have them? Where I'm going to take that net? Or do I run this up the ladder and I'm the president of the club? So, you know, it's essentially it's a process. Being successful is a, is the amalgamation of years, right? And you're, you're not going to go, you know, from zero to the top of the chart. And, you know, you see, when we look at athletes come out of junior college and they start in the NHL, right? There's only one way or one way to go from there and that's down and they may and either you stick or if you can't and then you have to go, you're going the wrong direction. So, when you miss a step, right? That's when, you know, trouble is on the horizon or potentially on the horizon. Same in developing your business for it, right? Because they say what we rise to our level of incompetency, if you rise too quickly, you know, I would think that the fall will be great. And, you know, so, you know, I come back to developing players or athletes develop into their careers so do, so does everybody else, every individual in their, in their own endeavors, the process. What, what is a common myth about playing professional sports that should be debunked? It's a pretty great life. I don't know if there's anything that I would debunk. It's not easy, but it isn't always as glamorous. You know, when you look at the numbers that people put up and of course you're always focusing on the most successful or the highest paid individuals. But, you know, that's the chart, but the chart and professional sports leagues and even amateurs are not amateur. Individual sports, you know, have a series of, you know, maybe a majority of players where it isn't anything like that. That they're, they're doing well, they're moving forward. They're going to have to have a second career. And it's a grind. As I said, it's survival. You look back on it and say, you know, I can't believe I survived that long. But yeah, so it's the idea that it's always about the celebrity. And the celebrity for the very best players is definitely a two-edge story, right? And more, most successful people, you know, they essentially have limited private life because they're still recognizable. And for the players who don't rise to that level, they'll have their anonymity, but it is more of a grind. You know, it's, you know, you're an individual sports player, golfer, tennis player, you're trying to make it. But you have no team, you know, you're traveling by yourself or you're small onterrage. You really can't afford a big onterrage to not stay in the best place because you don't have that, the capital behind you. So it's, it is that idea that it is, you know, we focus on the celebrity and the, and the money and we forget that there's majority of players are not following that practice. What who or who, rather, are three of the most influential people in your life? All right, you know, I mean, I think everybody says this to parents. Everyone does, but it's okay, it's a good answer. But it happens to be, I will say this, it's sad when that isn't true, right? I think it's really important that that is one of the, or they are one of the most influential and really the most influential. It's always going to be the people who have influenced in your life with the people who have graded or become intermittently or consistently part of your support. So for an athlete, you can't get away from the coaches I had. I learned from the coaches that I had. I had a coach, you know, I played generalize 15 years old. I wanted to go to college. That became sort of a focus. I was playing for the, Troll and Marley's were the major 18. I was playing for Markham, the junior beaching. That was a graduate program. I wasn't ready to make that decision. If I had stayed with Markham, I would have been pressured to do that. The coach of Markham, even though I was going to be starting Goliath that year, Bill White suggested I go play in Dixie. He was looking out for my best interest. I learned something about coachlessness there. I played for Joe Scanlon in Dixie and he was really tough, right? And he just didn't accept it, right? Like you're a top game and you played tough. I went to Ron Mason and Ron at the Falling Greenwood. He was, yeah, yeah, you're doing really great here. You think Prohockey is easy. You think you're ready for, I mean, he went, I get drafted after my two-year year because it wrapped with his money. And I went to talk to him about it and he gave me 15-minute litning about how I wasn't prepared and why I wasn't prepared. And that Prohockey is X, Y, and G and he had played him Peterborough in the Montreal Canadian organization and it was a very sobering moment. But it was that, you know, reality check. He told me what I needed to hear, not what I wanted to hear. And then, you know, with Boyd Smith's money comes in and just like here it is, it's just stuck in here and he gives me the rent. And, you know, he showed a lot of confidence. And, you know, it, it, it, it flows that way. So I did with adherence and I think Barclay tax abans and Hartford for sure, I learned a lot from them, you know, individually or rather each individual imparted something that I could take up. And, you know, so it isn't, you know, for me, it has never really been about an individual or three individuals, you know, Brick Dudley and Cincinnati, Pat Stable and Cincinnati. There are just different people that came into my life when I was in that formative, though my formative of professional years. And even on the way out, right, we're, we're, you know, with Bob Goodnell. I mean, you need that. You have to have a support group, right? I think every successful person has that group of people, whether it's three people or it's clusters of people. It's always been the clusters outside of my parents beyond that smaller cluster. It was a cluster of five or seven and the cluster of four or five over here. And, you know, the rest is up to the individual. And what are some, what are some resources, books, podcasts, whatever you, you know, whatever you enjoy consuming that have, that has helped you along the way. Well, I'm going to law school. But a lot of that's a, that's a good one. And it also destroys your interest in reading when you're done with that program. Because that's five pages, I think it's like 10 pages an hour. That's the most, you know, you can absorb. So that was a grind. But I did, I like that. The experience was great. I think that, that studying law should be more incorporated, the basic idea of studying law and theocratic method to be incorporated, even though we're losing it at most, law school, should be incorporated as undergraduates for below. I think it's just linear thinking and the ability to pull yourself back and consider all of the arguments or develop the idea of two competing thoughts in your head at the same time. That was, you know, after, you know, playing hockey, it's, you know, it's hockey to grind. You get, you get dumped into it and you don't, you don't see much of the world right from September to wherever you finish. And then there's the summer you try to enjoy whatever free time you have. And then you're back at it. And after 15 years, I just felt like I was full of mush. And so law school was, you know, a moment to re-educate myself. And, and, and after that, I like history, right? So I like reading about individuals and history and about, you know, moments and time, even if it's, if it's a historical and the, you know, there's, I won't say quite a historical section. It isn't history. It's historical, but there's lots of blanks. So, you know, I, I think, so you're really, really voting individual, right? And that's something that I've, you know, I've enjoyed doing. It's more than pleasure on getting something out of it. I took a negotiating workshop, you know, last in, forget when it was probably November, December of 2019, right? So it was, I did it for a variety of reasons, one of which was, you know, my corporate standpoint was considering I was going through the experience, but I learned, I actually learned a lot of that. I was crystallized some moments and things that you naturally do and identify some things that you're naturally weak at. So, the idea is that you're going to learn, it can be formal in an education. It can be informal and just the things that you are interested in. And, you know, you try to find out, you learn from it, right? And, and you're always looking to improve on your skill set. So I go back to, hey, you've got some formal training now going, you know, find some experience and develop skills and perfect. And understand what you can and can't do. Play to your strength. And then just one lesson that you would tell your younger self. Yeah, my younger self. Yes. That's my younger son. I should already told them everything. Oh, you get to, or, you know what, he probably told me the same lesson, but. I would tell a younger self not to be deterred by the adversity, right? You're going to get knocked down. And we all know that, you know, it's not whether you get knocked down, but whether you get up. Every time you do get knocked down, it knocks a chunk off you, right? And, and I would say that there are moments in my career, both on the ice and off the ice, where negative experiences, sometimes there's a residual effect that you don't shake off. And I would, I would say that no matter how bad the experience, find something good from it and never think about it. Again, never let it deter you from being aggressive or, or, you know, shying away from that same opportunity, right? Look for, you know, essentially, you're going to have some bad experiences, right? You're going to lose, right? And, and wherever that loss occurs, go back at that same issue, right? Do it until you win. I love that. We, we tend to, we tend to shy away from that, we're, we're, we're not sure we want to go and challenge ourselves again. And the last, the last question, what does, what does success mean to you? Well, you know, let's, let's get money on the table, right? This money makes the world go around. So I'm not going to give you a theoretical answer and have somebody say, man, it's really both money, isn't it? Okay, so let's put that out there. But it's, it, it, it is the, very much like people talk about retirement, right? You're going to retire and just do nothing and play golf on their pants and find whatever your hobby is. You know, and, and, you know, say, on, they're afraid of that, right? It's about doing something that's meaningful. It's important, impactful, right? Even a little bit. And it doesn't have to be money, right? There'd be no money, don't drop it. So I think being successful is looking back and saying I had an impact on that. Now, you know, um, you're always going to say, well, I could have been more impactful. Sure. Sure. Yeah, we understand that. But, but at least, you know, you left a mark. People have an opinion of you. People know you are there. And, um, you know, for me, that's, that's success, right? If you can achieve that level. And I think I'll equate to this when you're young athlete and you're asked to go and see somebody, you might not be well, might be really stuck. Um, might even be, you know, just a meeting with somebody. And, uh, when you're 23 or fostering, you just, you're not always going to make the right decision, right? And you're not going to think for that this is important. And it is important, right? The impact that we have on people, not just athletes, anybody, you do something nice for somebody. You don't understand the depth of that impact, right? When you're a young person, I mean, I certainly do now, but nobody, no, you know, you don't have that opportunity, right? So it is, um, uh, you know, that goes with it. I think you look back on your life and saying, I'm really glad I did that. I'm really glad I put myself out there. I know that I can understand why that would, would have an impact. Now, I got a little bit of that when my father passed away. My mother received a few letters for some young kids that were around our age, you know, that my dad had taken some time to help them in a variety of ways. Some were jobs or just some advice from when they were going through some tough times. And that they remembered it, you know, 30 years on, right? So, um, and you know, that sort of drove the point home as well, right? You know, you're influenced on people, you may never fully understand, but understand that you do have an influence on people, you know, make it, make it difficult. Very good. Um, so I don't have any other, any other questions, I guess, to, to sort of wrap, but I just want to ask where people connect with you online or learn more about octagon. Are there any places? Yeah, well, I mean, octagon website octagon.com, we have octagon hockey on Instagram and Twitter site. I am not on social media. And probably with good reason, because it was, it was more very quickly to politics, religion, and everything, but it's just a pot I choose not to step into. But, um, the, um, you know, we're, we're, we're accessible, and you know, we're online with the NHLPA and email addresses. You know, there is, are there? Okay, good. Yeah. No, that's all that's all I got. That's all I got. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it, Mike. Yeah, yeah, sure. Thank you. Did you, was that, did you enjoy it? Was there anything that you, that you didn't like? I thought it was all good. Yeah, no, no, I enjoyed it. Yeah, I think it's, it's an interesting, um, you know, I do, you know, do a lot of it. Part of our role, my role is more because of my age and my clients have gotten older that, um, I, I almost all of them, you know, we're, we're talking post hockey, um, you know, advice on whatever that, you know, just the things that we're talking about, whether it's staying in hockey or branching out, going back to school. Yeah. You know, and it's strategizing how they can take that next step, and, um, they're, um, so it's, it's, uh, you know, I find that important to do very, pay it forward. I had that. I mean, there's guys that I've mentioned, you know, they, they had it profound fact, right? I mean, they just, they, you know, they just did what they said, how they treated us, um, you know, some of the lessons that, um, you know, I had, uh, good fortune to know, um, you know, in, in play and say, Lewis, one of us stand usual and of course playing against him is glory health. And then the same generation, they're exactly the same individual, right? In the sports context, um, you know, stand, you know, I met through my, uh, in-laws, my father-in-law, um, you know, he just, he just couldn't be a more humble individual than he would be and I know superficially, but, um, I remember, uh, my father-in-law died prematurely, about two years after that, we happened to be playing in a golf tournament at the same time, somebody had mentioned to me that Dan was there and I said, I'm going to go up, I'm just going to go up and introduce myself, you know, and they remember me, you know, I'm, I've done a whole trip and I'm, I'm walking towards, you know, the pro-shop where he was, his birthday and, and I can see him coming to the other kind of jerky motion and, and he's walking, uh, he's walking towards me, right? I'm looking over by his shoulder, who's he going? There isn't anybody behind me, and Stan was, you know, hey, say what do you say, right? And he, and he comes right up to me and he wanted to know how my mother long was doing, right? So this is an unusual, they have a statue of him in front, you know, the ballpark in St. Louis and, and, and, and Gordy was very much like that, right? You were playing, you were a player, and, and the word got around with the older guys, you know, this is the player, he keeps his motion, he does his job, and, and Gordy always treated me and I got to know Gordy a little bit better because I play with Marty and, and, in Hartford and Gordy was around Hartford and, you know, they were, they were, they were impactful, they were, you know, I won't say a role model, they were just like you, you watch them operate, and again, they okay, right? There was no error about them, right? These are two of the biggest names in their respective sports and they were just guys, right? They were just part of the group. So, that's where, you know, you, you know, your actions do mold people, even inadvertent, right? Indirectly. So, there are a lot of really good moments like that in my career, right? So, it's natural, you know, I, it's important to me, I think it's important to the next generation, they may not think so, that's their prerogative, but you're still going to try. Mm-hmm. You've been fun. No, I appreciate that. A lot of really, really good lessons. I was really happy with it, and, you know, you've obviously done a lot over your career, you, you have a lot of really great wisdom and insight to share over. So, I'm happy you did this. Thank you. Yeah, real good. Got it. Stay in touch. I look forward to. Let's stay in touch. Yeah, whenever, well, I'll fly you when this is going live. I have a couple backlogs, so I have to just plan them out when they're going to be published, but I'll, I'll keep you in the loop, of course, and hopefully this lockdown will be over sooner than later. Yeah, yeah, I, well, I hope so. Yeah, it is what it is, you know, we don't control it, we just, yeah, yeah, all right, good deal. All right, take care. We'll talk soon, stay healthy. Thank you, too. Bye. Later. That's all for today. Thanks again for joining me on another episode of the success story podcast. You can download or stream this podcast wherever podcasts are available, including iTunes, Spotify, Google, Stitcher, iHeartRadio, and many others. You can also watch this podcast on YouTube. If you haven't already, please subscribe and share this podcast with your friends, family, co-workers, and peers. Please leave us a rating on iTunes. It takes about 30 seconds, as it allows other people to find our podcast and let's our amazing guests reach even more people with their message. And remember, any rating is fine as long as it contains five stars. I'm Scott Clary from the success story podcast, signing off.