Swish Goswami, CEO of TruFan | Top 20 Under 20, 6x Entrepreneur

The only podcast you need for your business, let's do this. Welcome to the sales versus marketing podcast, I'm your host Scott. Join me as we explore and demystify the latest trends, technologies and strategies used to achieve massive growth in 10X businesses. I'll be sitting down with sales, marketing and business leaders, dissect what's worked for them, dispel myths and deliver actionable insights that you can use to ensure repeatable, sustainable and predictable revenue in your business. Thank you for joining me on another episode of the sales versus marketing podcast. I'm your host Scott and today we are sitting down with Swish Goswami. Now, Swish, I'm very excited to speak because he's a young entrepreneur but don't let his age obviously influence your opinion or what he's done because his experience has passed. He's had six, started six high impact ventures in four different industries. He has been a LinkedIn new editor. He's been a Fortune 500 consultant to Google and American Express. He has participated in a venture capital firm founded by Brooklyn Nets Point Forward Trevor Booker. He has been a UN Youth Ambassador and spoken at UN sessions. He's been a three time TEDx speaker and all around just a very impressive individual. Right now, he's working on an organization where he's a founder CEO, TrueFan, which we're going to speak about in a bit. First, I'm going to throw it over Swish and just get a sense of his origin story and Swish. Tell us how you accomplished this, what motivated you to go out and do all these incredible things and be so successful and then how did you actually do it? Yes. Firstly, yes. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. I think two factors early on really helped set the tone for my life. One is having a really strong support system that was brutally honest with me about what I like and don't like. So my brother, for example, is a lawyer right now growing up, going to college, I wanted to be a lawyer. He was actually the first person to give me a reality check of what being a lawyer even entails and how 98% of what happens in the TV show suits is actually not what happens in a life of a lawyer. And then I think secondly, just in a natureot and something that I don't know if he can never be taught. I don't know if it's something you're born with, but coming from Singapore where the education system is way quicker, when I moved to Canada when I was eight years old, I just found school very easy and it gave me a lot of time to do a lot of extracurricular. So I was in dance, I was playing basketball, I was playing volleyball, I was playing cricket, I was debating. It allowed me to kind of get my interests in various fields and then start this interesting pattern of curiosity that was just throughout my childhood. Any time I would very interested in something, it's just thinking about it, I was actually going to go and try it out and do it, so that innate drive and that curiosity would definitely be the second thing that brought me to where I am right now. So I want to learn that after, so that is, that makes a lot of sense and I think that the strong sports system is probably what has enabled you to be successful definitely at the beginning because that mentorship, because a lot of people I think may not have that, especially if their family isn't like an entrepreneurial go-getter type family. So what's coming, I want to just understand the coming out of, okay, so you are go-getter, you are motivated, you've had six companies, obviously I'm assuming there's been a lot of struggle, a lot of stress. Yeah, I know entrepreneurs are like one company that like, like, lose all their hairs of your one, so like, so, and also, outside of just building a company, what motivated you to build out your brand? Because companies, one thing, brand is everything else and that makes our speak about what you're doing now. Yeah, so I mean, ever since I was in high school, I wasn't interested in business. One of the first companies I created was actually part of a program called Junior Achievement. It's a Canadian-wide program helping high school students to come together and learn how to build a business and then sell products within six months. And we built a custom lapel PIMS company. We sold about $27,000 worth of PIMS and six months became Southwest Alberta's company of the year. We were nominated for Candace Company of the Year and that was a really awesome way for me to show my parents that the lawyer and junior doctor might not be right for me. And my parents were an entrepreneurial. My brother definitely was an entrepreneurial, I didn't come from a family that encouraged entrepreneurship, but I was also blessed that I didn't come from a family that discouraged entrepreneurship. So they were just neutral. They didn't know what to think about it, but when they saw, you know, all right, cool six months, the program, he did really well, the company did really well, maybe there's something there. In high school, I started a nonprofit called Candace. Thanks. Leveraged my debate network, which was fairly global, but without debating for Team Canada, to get these people from various countries to go home and start conferences and to take all the proceeds from those conferences and put it into a youth fund that would only fund youth startups. And then past that, I think it's first and second year university, my mind just went to a bunch of ideas and honestly, some of those ideas failed. You know, I wanted to start a food distribution app called Food Share with Quinn, one of my best friends at the university, Toronto, and first year, and we built that approach type of the application and it didn't work because of regulation. It's legal to make money off donated food. And secondly, just we didn't have the focus, I think, that you need to try to get an app like that to get off the ground. So it wasn't like everything that I started had just become gold. I'd actually say it's quite the contrary, but I think especially in the last two years, the true fan, the biggest thing that we've learned, and by we, I mean, my co-founder and I and the rest of the team now that's 13 people strong, we've really learned to just hone in on our skills and focus in on what makes us special. The best part about it and we can now do that on a daily basis because of the fact that we have other people to count upon and trust. I forgot the second part of your question, so could you repeat that? Now I'm thinking, I'm thinking back, you know, I'm actually, that's something that I shouldn't do. I hate compounding questions because of this exact reason, but I got excited. So I apologize. No, no, no worries, no worries. You know, I actually can't remember what I asked, but I was, as you were speaking, and oh, I just wanted, actually I wanted to speak about true fan, but I wanted to sort of line it up. So you do a lot of speaking engagements. So you spoke at the UN, you spoke in, I guess, well, up to what I've researched three times at TEDx, I don't know if you've done more, but you've done World Business, I love. Three, three is good enough for me, it's good enough. So whenever you speak, there's obviously like a passion behind the things that you deliver to audiences and obviously there's something that, that's the other people can relate to. So, what is your topic that you love to sort of speak about, and is that influence what you're working on now? I don't know, I'm just, this is something. Totally. And this actually kind of made me remember your other part of the question, too, which was why the, why the impetus to start a personal brand is all right, that's right. So I'll tie them into the other. I think the reason why I wanted to create a brand as well is because I realized that whether you want one or not, you have a personal brand. And that's very important, when someone searches you up, they are immediately going to get some results back. And I would like those results to be as favorable and positive towards me, and I'd like those results to hopefully be a summation of what I've done and what I'm good at. So that's honestly why I think the later reason and the reason that I love continuing to share content on a platform like LinkedIn or a platform like Instagram is just the community building aspect. I find that to be very rewarding. It can definitely tie back towards true fans. We have had some people in my community who've come on as employees, as interns, as clients. We've also had people that are championing true fans and telling their friends about it. And it's been great from a branding perspective to have that sort of community aspect to our company. And that really starts with individuals that true fans starting to share their life and tidbits of their life on social media. I think in terms of speaking, obviously coming from a debate background, I loved speaking. And once you stop debating, you definitely want to find another way to get on stage and tell people what you believe when speaking with that outlet for me. So right now, I mainly speak on two topics. Number one is I love talking about the future marketing and talking about customer engagement and one-to-one marketing and how certain paradigms of marketing, like influencer marketing or paid advertising or changing and where the direction of those trends are going. The second thing is I love talking about mental health. And this is the talk that I've given at Fair amount of universities now across the continent is talking about how to be able to become a professional but still manage your mental health and still be in check. And that's a very important topic for me, especially because of the people around me and some of the people that have face mental health illnesses and just the feeling of being helpless and not being able to talk to them and understand what they're going through, that's something that I definitely wouldn't want anyone to go through. I think that I want to just have a quick section, very, very brief on the mental health aspect because I think the future of marketing will sort of dovetail into true fan. So for the mental health of individuals within organizations, entrepreneurs, what is the high level messaging, like the true takeaways that can help people understand that a high performing individual needs to focus on their mental health and what sort of avenues can they take to sort of make sure that they have an outlet to engage with or I don't know all the new ones, but I really just want to lay cool, yeah, you know what I mean? I mean, I think the two biggest takeaways from any of the talks that I give mental health are this. One, everyone has mental health. I think, you know, obviously there's a stigma still associated towards it. It's definitely gotten better in the last five to ten years, but the fact is that every single person can relate to this topic, whether or not you have an illness. So you don't need to be a schizophrenic. You don't need to have bipolar in order to be able to empathize with mental health and in order to understand it. I do believe that mental health is on a spectrum and it goes from one side to another side and on any given day you will fluctuate on that spectrum. You're not always going to be ultra happy, you're not always going to be very sad. And so it's worth noting that you can be a part of this conversation and you should be. The second thing is to note that in a world where we're inundated with a lot of technology and so many apps online for you to be able to meditate, you don't need to go to that extent, I think, in order to be able to check up on your mental health. I think even taking ten, fifteen minutes a side every Sunday to go for a walk or to just sit at a table with no agenda of what to do, but just to think about how your week went. Those reflections that you'll do every week, every day, every month for yourself will really go a long way. I think the standard that I'm trying to get people to live up to isn't that high. You don't need to download COM and be an active user on it. You just need to find time to check in with yourself. I think that's incredibly important for especially entrepreneurs when they're essentially going through a lot of things on their own, but also people within organizations that may feel like, again, that stigma, just because I'm stressed out word doesn't mean I have to go look for help or whatnot. I think people should proactively monitor their mental health and well-being. I guess we're always on, and it's very difficult, you know? Yep. Yep. Okay, let's speak about the second favorite topic, which is probably why true fan exists. You're a marketing paradigm shifts, influencer marketing, social media, the amount of access that we have. So what spawned a true fan? And what is true fan? Let's walk through that. Let's walk through what is true fan and how it came to be. Sure. So what is true fan? True fan is a social intelligence platform. That's how we branded it. And I'll explain what that means a bit later, but we're a social intelligence platform that helps brands engage with their grassroots communities. So those grassroots communities are made up of their brand advocates, their super fans, but they're also made up of micro influencers that are following you. They're engaging with your content and they have local influence. So instead of finding people that are not connected with you, they're not aligned with your product or service, but they have a million followers. Onik and I believe that if you go after true fan and you buy your product and go and power your end consumers that have local influence, you are likely going to be better off. And those engagements will be cheaper. Those engagements will yield better results. That's what true fan is all about. The original impetus to start the idea came about two years ago, the first iteration of what we wanted to build with just a simple platform to help any celebrity or any brand come on and just find their top fans so that they could reward them. So if you're releasing an album, you should be able to give a sneak peek up that album to your top 10, 15 fans. If you have a product coming out, you should be able to get all your user testing done through your top brand advocates. Where I think we've gone tours and especially with the acquisition we made three months ago, we've become a very all-encompassing audience analytics platform that doesn't just have the capabilities of being able to help you find the top 20% of your audience, but we now have the ability to be able to take your entire following and give you the tools to be able to filter that following and find an audience that you want to market to. Whether it's based on location, the key words that your audience has in their bio, how many followers they have? Are they verified? Is there a number of filters that we give you to be able to slice and dice your audience? Have you ever, you know who Seth Godin is, correct? Yep. I actually even started with Seth Godin twice. Oh, yeah. So he's a guy. Yeah. Right. Building your core tribe when you're taking the product, so that sounds like you're building it like a SaaS product and like you're almost like codifying some of the concepts that he speaks about a lot and like he's like a marketing genius. So I totally agree with this, but I don't see a lot of companies doing this if any. Yeah. Yes. And a lot of brand, like we, you know, my co-founder and I attended a conference in California recently and it was called the brand week conference and we heard a lot of brand managers who fortune 500 come up and say, we want to empower our customers. We want to, we want to be able to activate our own audience and not have to rely on external influencers. But what we found so ironic is that's what we believed two years ago, the industry had tilted towards that direction yet and now we're starting to see this trend towards finding organic influencers, people that are directly aligned with you, they don't charge as much, they have higher engagement rates and they're already aligned with your brand because they already buy from it. That's the trend that we're seeing right now. But I definitely think the problem that TrueFan is trying to target is evolved as well. You know, two years ago, we had a simple problem where like customer loyalty doesn't go two ways and a lot of brands aren't factoring in social media data when they think about customer loyalty. But now the problem that we've identified is way bigger. We've identified a problem within paid advertising and within influencer marketing and it's what we believe is a bubble that is going to explode. So walk, walk me through that problem that you've discovered and why is it, why is it such an issue that's going to eventually explode? Yeah, so paid advertising has four key problems and by paid advertising, I mean Instagram, Google, Facebook ads, the first problem is ad fraud. So click farms, domain laundering are leading to a lot of money being wasted, about $50 billion to $150 billion in the next five years is going to be lost due to ad fraud. Second big issue is that ad blockers are on the rise. But my co-founder and I both have our ad blockers on on YouTube, about 40% of North American YouTube users have ad blockers on and that number is only rising globally. The third is that brands have no clue where their ads are being put on. You know, I know Verizon and JP Morgan last year had issued where their ads were being put on top of racist YouTube content. And that's a big issue, right? Imagine waking up as a PR manager and being like, well, I had no control in this, but now we have a PR crisis to deal with. And the fourth and final reason on why paid advertising, in my opinion, at the bubble that will burst is we think there's a difference between selection effect and advertising effect. So I'll give you an example to describe this. Imagine that we were all in a pizza store and you and I were employees at the pizza store. I, we were told, all right, the person who sells the most is going to win this month's challenge. You decided to go outside the store and start trying to give coupons that way. Instead of doing that, I beat you by staying inside the store and giving coupons to people that were in line already. That's literally what paid advertising is is there's no way to truly understand whether advertisements are going towards people that didn't already have buying intent. So the ads that you're showing is Puma to shoe lovers, how do you know that you're actually hitting an audience that wasn't already going to buy from you? But something that brand marketers right now cannot, they cannot figure out and it's a big issue behind why a lot of times they're paid advertising spend goes to waste. So we think like this is all that and obviously a lot of that money is going to ship towards influencer marketing. The influencer marketing industry will become an $11 billion dollar industry by the end of the year. It's only growing, growing every single year. But influencer marketing in the way it was done previously is also problematic. My co-founder and I noted that a lot of times brands have been spending frivolously on influencers that have fake engagement, they have fake followers. Just because they have the million followers, people will pay them. And the big metric that a lot of brands are trying to look for is impressions, views. They're not trying to look for conversion. So we think there's a much better model of influencer marketing that you can do and that's where our platform by empowering your own audience made up of super fans, brand advocates and micro influencers that are likely yield better results in the long term. Now do you still see because that is always that that's always the issue with influencer marketing, right? It's not measurable to the same extent as paid, but now you're saying, well, what's the point of measuring paid if it's if it's already going towards people that are already buying some. Yeah. So you solve for like even even so I totally understand where you're going with true fan with with like you're niching down into these micro influencers with like hyper targeted like great engagement, but how do you remove, I guess, the aversion to throwing money in and still not seeing like how do you know that they're authentic, they're genuine, even after smaller. Great question. So there's a couple of answers to that is we actually have added in an element of measurement to be able to allow data measure before and after a campaign how it did. So first of all, when you come on to our platform, you're actually able to see every single profile and you're able to see how many fake followers they have. We actually have like an accuracy rate now about 98%. We did that through the previous founders of social rank, they bottled a bunch of fake accounts, they built out an ML program to be able to analyze which were fake followers and which were not. So for us, the first thing right off the bat is you know you can test these people before you even reach out to them to see how many fake followers they have and to also really understand all right, does this person have an audience that I'm not already targeting? You can do that. You can take their audience, you can take your audience and you can do an overlap to see how many people overlap between this influencer's audience and my brand's profile and if it's a lot maybe you don't want to work with them because you're not going to reach a new audience by working with them. You can validate an influencer even before a campaign starts. After the campaign is done, you can measure the results of that campaign by going back and looking at that same overlap because hopefully if that campaign was done well, they are going to be some people that trickle over from that influencer's following into yours and that's something that's important to measure especially over time. So a key example that we always talk about is Sprite and LeBron James. They signed a partnership a few years ago. It's worth noting that we can actually go back to 2018 and see what the brand overlap is between LeBron James's followers and Sprite, it was to think about 200,000 people. Now, let's take a look at it in 2020. Has that number grown? Has Sprite truly got a benefit from having LeBron James as a grand ambassador? That's something that we can quantify on our platform. So this is all great and I believe in what you're saying, but what about the paid ad platforms that the influencers are on that are constantly trying to take in theory, like you hear about the algorithm changing, Instagram is no longer showing the same organic reach to an influencer's following as it once did and the conspiracy theories that they want to take some of that ad revenue and turned into paid ads on Facebook and Instagram and whatnot. So all these companies have billions of dollars, but influencers are just these small little sole proprietors mostly, how do they combat the changing algorithm to stay relevant? What do you see the future of that dichotomy looking like? Yeah, I think look, there are going to be a bunch of influencers that truly care about the algorithm. The ones that are going to win in the long term are going to have a key focus beyond just the algorithm on their community. Like I think it goes a long way when you can go out of your way and reward your community, make them feel loved, make them truly, truly believe in the message that you're sharing. So the number one example is someone that I think has done this really well in my community, David Dobratt. You take a look at it, it doesn't matter what way the Instagram algorithm goes, his videos are still going to go viral. These photos are still going to have millions of likes and millions of people commenting. And the reason why is people have fallen in love with who he is, they find him authentic. And more importantly, he actually cares about his community. He reads a note to them, he rewards them with merchandise. He spends time doing live stream and answering their questions. These are the people that I think are generally going to win. And that's what I've actually, to an effect done on LinkedIn as well, obviously it's not such a big sale as a David Dobratt, but the reason why LinkedIn is still a big platform for me, despite three years of algorithm changes, is because I've invested a lot of time in talking to my community, whether it's talking to them on the phone on a five minute call, or talking to them in the comments where I still, to date, try to reply to every single comment that I get. So do you think that that mentality, like the trying to play the algorithm, is going to be essentially the death of fake influencers? And if influencers, if there could be like one lesson for people that are trying to sort of take their influence or brand into the next, I guess, you know, to the future of marketing, it would be to truly build out and be offended with your community, that's really the only way to win. I really think it is. I really think it is. Because I think three things, you know, building a brand, the three things that comes down to is content community and collaboration. Collaboration is something some people can do, some people can't. It depends where you are. If you're in LA, you're probably going to be able to find other influencers to collaborate with, do videos with, take photos with, write articles with whatever. If you're in, I don't know, Missouri or whatever, like, or St. Louis, it might be a little more difficult compared to LA to be able to find those people. Content is something that can differentiate you as well. But the way that we're, you know, we're inundated again with like so many pieces of content every single day, you know, as a consumer, we're bombarded with sponsored posts on top of sponsored posts, it's really hard these days to stick out unless you're Mr. Beast and you're able to put $500,000 into a video doing a crazy stunt that nobody has ever done before. That's a really hard way to differentiate yourself as well. So I do think that the golden egg then is community. I think the way to be able to differentiate yourself is to have a very strong focus to where my top fans, how do I mobilize them, activate them, and make them feel valued for their loyalty. And that's what I think come like building a brand community building and even true fan really comes down to. Now do you have, because I would love to, I would love to understand like some of like case studies, a true fan has worked on that has shown measurable success. Can you speak to some things like that that could really drive the point home for people that are, they may not be comfortable with influencer marketing yet or if they are, they don't understand or have ever been, have any experience with doubling down on marketing too like their own following? Yes, I'll give you some examples. Some of these examples were also examples of how customers in the last three or four years were using social right, the platform that we bought out in November. So you know, the first is the Red Cross, about two, three years ago, the Red Cross used our platform to be able to find volunteers that could come out and help them with their initiative. They went online, they found people that were using the hashtag or were mentioning the Red Cross and posts and they were reaching out to those people and asking them to join their volunteer base. The second example, this is the current kind of art is Netflix, Netflix is currently using our platform, not even for marketing, but just to make strategic business decisions by understanding, all right, what is the main audience that is watching orange as a new black? What is the main audience that's watching stranger thing? And let's understand what sort of programming we can put out next that might be able to either cater to these audiences or cater to an entirely different audience than we haven't tapped into. And this is very vital, especially because of the fact that platforms like Netflix are also trying to cater to an international audience now. They're trying to build original programming, not just in North America, but in other places like India, where the entire cultural paradigm is very different in those countries. The third example I'd bring up is the United Talent Agency, still an existing customer and they use it for being able to find brand affinities between their talent and brands that they're trying to work with. So one of their key talent is Chris Pratt. If Chris Pratt tomorrow wanted to work with a watch brand, they could come onto our platform, they could run Hublot watches, they could run Chris Pratt's account, find the brand overlap very easily, and see, all right, is there a big overlap? It is a big overlap and let's go to Hublot and tell them that this is a seamless partnership. If there isn't a big overlap, that still could be spun in a good way, because we could go to Hublot and say, hey, do you want to reach out to an audience that genuinely doesn't follow Hublot right now? So it's kind of a win-win for them. If there's a big similarity, even if there isn't a big similarity, they can spin it using data in a way that makes that deal happen a lot quicker. I like that a lot. It makes a lot of sense, and I understand what you're doing. I wanted to sort of tee this up with a couple like insight questions through your experience, but before I get into that, I just wanted to open the floor for anything in terms of future of marketing or what TrueFans is doing, is there anything that we didn't cover that you wanted to do? Oh, no. I think, honestly, I'm very impressed with myself. Normally, I'm not very good at describing what we do at that level, but I'm pretty happy to help. I appreciate it. No, my pleasure. It was really good. It makes a ton of sense. And I've never heard of a tech that does what TrueFan does, and I don't like to be so evangelistic about products or specific companies on the podcast. But I think it's very relevant because it's so different from everything else that I've seen out there. There's a lot of influencer marketing firms, agencies, but not at this level. Like really, in all seriousness, like that, do what you do. So it's very cool to hear how companies are actually using it. You've been a six-time entrepreneur, is it more, you've done a six? Again, as I said at the very beginning, some of those did not work out, but very happy with the work that I've done in the last three years with a wearable company being able to build, dunked with my roommate in New York, who had started the account in 2013, and then now with TrueFan. So my question to you is, sometimes I ask a question, like, would you do it again, but you've done it six times, that's a stupid question to ask, so. But I would ask. Yeah, I know, right? Like, what's a nice venture? Give it like another year or two, but I'll ask another question. And this is a very vanilla question, but I like asking it because everyone interprets a question differently, and they really lay into it, so it's good to get some good insight for people that are sort of younger in their career. One lesson that you would tell yourself, younger self, a professional lesson that would help you get to where you are a little bit quicker. Yeah, so are you looking for like my main? Yeah, let's do it. You need some advice? Yeah, some advice, some advice you tell your younger self. Yeah, I think, I mean, if I was looking back at like the 18 year old switch, you're not old, so it's like four years ago, I would tell him, first of all, don't sweat the small stuff. I think this is something that my brother told me, and his words are still kind of rung a bell in my ear because a lot of times I think I freak out by being like, oh my God, there's so much to do, and I need to do this quickly, and like, you feel like you're in a race with not only yourself, maybe your friends, maybe society, maybe what people are telling you to do, just don't sweat the small stuff. You know, I think every single person is on their own path. Every single person hopefully will find success at their own given time. Don't rush that process, enjoy that process, and take away as much as you can from it. I think number two is another piece of advice that my brother gave me is don't eat the marshmallow. And what that means is there are going to be a lot of distractions that come up, and this is something that I faced two years ago, it's something I faced last year, something I even faced right now, but I think I've become better now at putting the distractions aside and really trying to focus in. So when you get to a certain level, when you start making moves, you're always going to have opportunities around you that you can capitalize upon. So it's worth noting that there's always a time to say no, there's always a time to say yes, and being able to prioritize the current projects you're working on, especially if you really believe in them, is a skill that you will need to develop. And then the third and final thing is an advice that I think has very much affected my life, which is your net worth is your network. As much of your time not just on building your business, but on trying to build up a strong network, the most organic way in my opinion of doing that is by interviewing people. So if you want to start a podcast, record it even on GarageBand and Export Soundcloud, do it in the most crappy way if need be, you don't need to go out and buy $200 mics right off the bat. If you want to write articles, go on to Medium, go on to LinkedIn, and find time to interview other people. I think 99% of people love talking about themselves. I am exhibit A. It is more easier, I think, to be able to reach out to someone and get them to say yes to an interview, then get them to say yes to a coffee. So instead of taking time away from someone, I think it's always great being able to create the foundation of a relationship upon you giving value to them by interviewing them. So that's definitely something I would do if I was looking to grow my network is interview people, follow up with people, make sure you value your network, make sure you're not just trying to reach the next person, the next person, the next person, invest time and really caring for your network. I love it. Those are all very good takeaways. Thank you. I appreciate that. I like that. Yeah, there was no limit on the amount of advice, so I'm glad you went into all those. And then the last question that I always asked, because I always find that people that are high performance individuals in a company, entrepreneur, whatever, they always have sources of knowledge. So it could be podcasts, audibles, it could be mentors, people they love listening to. What have you learned from or what are you learning from now that you think would be relevant for someone else to look into? Yeah, I think I'm not a big reader, sadly. I, however, am a big watcher. I don't know if that's the word, but I watched a lot of YouTube videos, I watched a lot of movies. I consume a lot of content that way. I think I think that I'm learning right now that perhaps I wasn't learning as much two, three years ago, is I think appreciating, appreciating your, your surroundings. I think that's a big thing that my co-founder, especially Tommy, he's from the West Coast, he's from Vancouver. They have water and mountains and all sorts of beautiful things there. We don't tend to have that, I think, in Toronto. No, we don't. No matter where I grew up, Keith. So it's being neat, just being able to chat with him and understand, you know, how to be able to go outside and take a quick, tender minute walk to reset, you know, being able to understand your surroundings and appreciate it. I think now more than ever, given the fact that we're all quarantined, we're starting to even appreciate it more because we take things like that, I think, for granted. And moments like this where you're kind of forced to stay inside, make you realize how the less you were to just be able to go outside and sit down for dinner with your friends and stuff like that hopefully won't be undervalued going forward. Yeah, definitely. And I think that also is something that, you know, we sort of touched on it before, the mental health and always being in front of a screen and always being on like simple things that I think our parents were more accustomed to, not always having a second screen in front of them and grandparents, like we have to sort of bring those things back a little bit because I listen, it's so easy to be on your phone or computer like 24, 7 right now. Very true. Very true. Yeah. That those are all the questions I had, man. I really appreciate the chat. I think we really uncovered a lot, especially about true fan and some of the insights you had. I think the only thing that I wanted to know was if people wanted to get in touch with you or true fan. Where would they go? Definitely. If you're interested in true fan, you can go on our website, truefan, T-R-U-S-A-N-DOT-IO. If you wanted to reach out to us directly, just reach out over email to info at truefan.io. And then for me, Twitter is probably the easiest way to reach me. I think LinkedIn kind of get a bit overwhelmed with my inbox sometimes. And Instagram, I don't really check my message requests as often. So Twitter, where I don't really have much of following and I still do check it for the news. I think it's the best way to reach me. You can reach me at GoSwish, G-O-S-W-I-S-H. And even if you decide to reach out to me on other platforms, if you just say, hey, I listen to this podcast and really liked it or whatever or I hated it, you can even tell me that that's not a problem. I will. That too, because that's probably a good feedback. Exactly. No, I will reach out. It might take me a bit of time, but I 100% will reach out because I do try to get back to people as soon as possible. And I really appreciate it and like, you know, it's, you've done a lot and you're very busy, very busy person, but it is, you know, you sort of practice what you preach and even when I just, you know, cold email that I know where I've seen your stuff on LinkedIn for a long time. And I appreciate what you're doing and you were, you were very willing to jump on. So I really do appreciate that, man. Thank you. No worries. Thank you for having me. This is great. I love the conversation. That's all I got. So this has been another episode of the sales versus marketing podcast. As always, if you haven't already, please like, subscribe, comment, and rate the podcast, share it with your friends, family, peers, co-workers, any ratings fine as long as it includes five stars and download and stream this podcast wherever you can download podcasts. You can also catch it on YouTube as well. So as always, have a great week, have a productive week and we'll speak against you by now. Thanks for listening to the sales versus marketing podcast brought to you by R.O.I. Overlord. Delivering strategy, technology, and insights to both sales and marketing leaders and teams globally.