Patrick Lencioni - The Table Group Founder & NYT Bestselling Author (10M+ Books Sold) | Why 80% of People Hate Their Work and the Simple Framework to Fix It

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How does it feel when somebody's working outside of their genius?

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The best way I can describe it is that it feels like work.

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When you're working in your genius, you're working, but it doesn't even feel like work.

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Today's guest is Patrick Lencioni, best-selling author, leadership expert, and creator of Working Genius.

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As the founder of The Table Group, he has spent decades helping leaders build stronger teams and healthier organizations.

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In this conversation, he shares why finding the right kind of work can change how you feel about your career and why work doesn't have to feel like a grind.

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Are most people working outside their genius?

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The majority of people spend too little time in their genius.

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Some tragically spend no time in their genius.

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How do you describe how their day should feel?

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Nobody gets to work in their genius all the time.

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It's all a matter of relative percentages.

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But when we have a job that's mostly the things we don't like to do, that's just punishment.

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It's not about finding the perfect job.

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You need a job and start doing something that's not completely horrible for you and then figure out how to align that.

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But people who think it's supposed to be a grind are in for a very, very disappointing career.

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My fitness pal is a success story partner.

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Now here's something I've noticed after interviewing hundreds of founders, the ones that are performing at the highest level, the ones that are truly winning, they aren't just optimizing their business or their calendar or their team, they're paying attention to what they eat.

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And the ones who aren't paying attention, they're usually the first ones to burn out.

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And that pattern is consistent enough that it got me thinking about my own nutrition.

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Not whether I was eating well, but whether I actually knew what the big picture looked like.

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That's why I started using the MyFitnessPal app.

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I wanted to see what I was actually eating, not what I assumed I was eating, but the real numbers, what my protein intake looked like, what my macronutrient breakdown was, where my calories were actually going throughout the day.

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And the app gives you all of that.

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Now, what kept me using it is that there's zero friction.

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If I eat something, I scan the barcode, it pulls everything up.

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I can also verbally log what I eat.

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And it remembers my regular meals.

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So most days I'm logging my food in under a minute.

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See, food is a foundation for your energy, your sleep, your recovery, and your performance.

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It's not one of many inputs.

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It is the one input.

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So go to podcast.myfitnesspal.com and use code Scott.

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All uppercades for 15% off MyFitnessPal Premium.

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That's podcast.myfitnesspal.com, code Scott.

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I want to first unpack when I look at sort of your life's work and your most recent work, the working genius.

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I know that this work applies to people trying to figure out their career and how they operate within a company, but I want to sort of from you working with all these individuals, trying to understand what their working genius is.

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How does it feel when somebody is working outside of their genius?

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You know, I think the best way I can describe it is that it feels like work.

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What I mean by that is when I was a kid, my dad, God rest his soul, said, Pat, if it were fun, they wouldn't call it work.

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And I remember thinking, oh, that's a drag.

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And when you're not working in your genius, it feels like, oh, yeah, this is really, this takes energy and intent that I probably wouldn't otherwise do.

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When you're working in your genius, you're working, but it doesn't even feel like you're working.

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Which is frictionless.

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It's, it's, yeah, it's like you're doing what you were meant to do now, but when you're working really outside your genius, which is what you call your working frustration, it feels like drudgery.

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So I, I'm thinking like, there's really three kinds of work.

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There's fluid, fun.

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I love what I'm doing.

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There's work where you're like, yep, this is kind of work.

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And then there's misery.

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So when I think of fun work, I think of flow state.

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That's in your genius.

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That's in your genius.

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You know, you don't even pay attention to the clock.

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Like when I do these podcasts, I'm in my genius.

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Exactly.

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I think, I hope, after I know that you have tests to figure out.

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But I feel like I'm in my genius because I genuinely get energy from it.

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Nothing else distracts me.

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Meanwhile, I could be on...

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an all hands call, a budget call, a whatever call, a zoom call on anything.

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And I'm like, okay, when does this end?

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I know you have to do it, but if someone else is talking, you know, I have the bad habit of checking emails on the phone cause I don't want to really be in this meeting.

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I have other things that I'm thinking into the future or into the past sometimes.

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So I think that genius, like you just said is flow.

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Not everybody experiences flow.

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I'm going to have sort of two questions to follow up with this.

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Are most people working outside their genius?

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Because I think that when people just hear you describe that, I know what flow is.

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I experienced it because I do a creative project for a living, but I think most people probably don't love their work.

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Yeah, I would say the majority of people spend too little time in their genius.

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Some tragically spend no time in their genius.

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And largely that's because it's kind of a crapshoot when people interview.

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And I see this, like people getting out of school or picking a career, and they're not doing it with an understanding of who they are.

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My first job out of college was the best job in America that year.

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It was the number one company.

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It was called Bain & Company, a management consulting firm.

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And they wrote a book that year and I read it because that was before the internet.

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They wrote books and it said the best job in America for a college grad is Bain.

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And I applied and I got the job.

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And it was so completely opposite of my working geniuses.

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See, somebody said it's a perfect job if you're wired a certain way.

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You can make good money and you get good experience if you're wired a certain way.

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But I was doing things I just didn't like.

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And so I didn't understand like, man, I've been pretty successful up until this point in my life and I am struggling.

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And for two years, I was just...

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just scraping by and I thought oh man I'm a fraud I how did they hire me and then I I five years ago discovered working genius and I was like oh it was the opposite of who I am and I was swimming upstream the entire time I think that most people that's that's the reality too often it is yeah um

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Now, the second thing I wanted to talk about just in terms of working genius and flow state is people do experience flow like I do.

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But I also understand that a lot of my day is work that I don't like.

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if you were going to describe working genius to someone, how do you describe how their day should feel?

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Because there's always going to be shit.

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This sucks.

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It's a great question.

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And nobody gets to work in their genius all the time.

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It's all a matter of

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relative percentages, if you will.

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And like, I'm a parent and my, I'm pretty much an empty nester.

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I've won.

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It's still in college.

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And, but for years I was doing things that my kids needed, my wife needed and the house needed.

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And,

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that weren't necessarily my thing, but you don't get to choose.

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Now, what I realized, though, you do get to outsource or ask other people to help you with things and kind of barter with people like, hey, you know, I'm terrible at this.

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Can you help me with this stuff?

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And I'd love to help you with that.

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That's the best thing in the world.

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But generally speaking, you know, I don't get to decide I'm going to change my kids' diapers.

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We got to get them dinner.

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We got to keep them going to school and doing their homework.

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So there's plenty of things we have to do in life.

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But when we have a job that's mostly the things we don't like to do, that's just punishment.

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And so and what's interesting, Scott, is this.

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People think that it's selfish to talk about that.

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One of my favorite stories was a guy that was getting his performance review and it was not it had not been a good year for him.

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It was going to be a bad performance review.

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And the night before he went in to talk to his boss and his boss's boss, he did the working genius.

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And so he came to the review and he handed them the report and said, Hey, before we get started, can you just look at this?

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And they looked at the report and they said, Well, no wonder you've had such a bad year.

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This job is totally wrong for you.

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He goes, I know.

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And they were like, you know, we have another job in another department.

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We need people just like this.

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And he said, I got promoted.

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I got promoted.

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rather than chastised or fired because they just did.

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If we don't know who we are and what gives us joy and energy, we can't find the right job.

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And that's even within the organizations who work.

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It's not like you have to go change your career or leave the company.

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Sometimes you'd have to go to your manager and say, this is, I discovered who I am and what I'm great at and what kills me.

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Most managers are like, I want to put you in a job where you're flourishing most of the time.

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Now, everybody's going to have to do some stuff they don't like.

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Yeah.

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But if you're spending 70% of your time doing stuff you don't like, it's not going to be a fun job.

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When you first started a Bain company, I bet like most people, you subscribe to the idea, especially just out of college, if you're super ambitious, that you have to do hard work and it's going to suck.

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So is that true or is this just a fallacy that we subscribe to because that's what our parents subscribe to and that's what our grandparents subscribe to?

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Like, talk to me about, I guess, the thing in your life, this inflection point that led you to realize that work doesn't have to suck, quite simply.

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You know, and St. Thomas Quintus says the answer is always in the middle.

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You know, like there's that extreme, that post-World War II thing.

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It's like you work and it's not fun and you do it.

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And that's why they call it a job.

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And then it kind of swung the other way where a lot of young people were coming out of school saying, I know some people now that are graduating.

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I don't think that would be a great job for me.

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And it's like, it's not about finding the perfect job.

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You need a job and start doing something that's not completely horrible for you and then figure out how to align that.

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So it's someplace in the middle.

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But people who think it's supposed to be a grind are in for a very, very disappointing career.

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Yeah.

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Because you're not going to be good at it.

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That's the thing.

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You owe it to yourself and to others to do the thing that feeds you because you will be better at it.

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You will serve other people better.

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You will do better.

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And when people say I have to be a doctor or a banker or whatever else it is because my grandfather was or because that's what the people in my school said I should major in, you are in for a very, very long struggle.

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Okay, so you have written 14 books, helping people understand how to lead, how to work, how to manage.

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You've sold over 10 million copies across those 14 books.

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What was the thing after writing those 14 books that led you to this framework?

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Was it an understanding of, because I mean, you've worked with so many companies over the course of your career.

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So I'm trying to figure out, because this was over the course of how many years that you've been in this game, like 20, 20 plus years.

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The company's been around almost 28 years.

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28 years.

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So you've been working with companies for 28 years.

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I'm assuming that you saw a lot of people in the wrong roles across the hundreds of companies that you've worked with.

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What was the thing?

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Was it something in your life?

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Was it something in a company you were consulting for that led to this idea?

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It was my life.

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And all the books I've written, I would say I like to say I wrote by accident, by the grace of God, because I don't ever sit down and go, I need to write a book.

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What should it be about?

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I'll be working with clients or doing something in my own company and something will occur to me and I'll start to share it with people and say, does this make sense?

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And when it resonates, we explore it.

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And so many people say, that's a book right there.

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And sometimes I say, I don't think that's a book.

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And they'll go, I do.

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And like one of my books, The Ideal Team Player, I wasn't going to write a book about it.

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Somebody else said, you have to.

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And it's growing now after 10 years faster than it ever has.

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So it's it's never I never set out to write a book.

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So here's what happened to me, though.

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It was it was almost six years ago and we were just coming out of the initial covid and I lived in California.

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So we weren't even close to coming out of it.

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But my little firm, we said, screw it.

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We're going back to work.

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OK, so we snuck past the at the dead of night, past the police and we went into our little office and most of the work we did was on Zoom.

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And so one day in particular, I had three meetings in a row.

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And the first one was with, it was me actually teaching a bunch of priests how to be better leaders.

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And it was a webinar and I loved it.

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I was excited because I love to teach people things.

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And then right after that, I had to have a follow-up webinar or Zoom call with the people who organized it, who made a lot of mistakes.

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And I had to get them to do better and to pay more attention to things.

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Oh, I was really bummed out.

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And then right after that, we had a meeting where we came up with a new idea for a podcast.

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And I was really excited.

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And Amy, the woman who worked with me, she said to me, why are you like that?

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I said, what do you mean?

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She goes, you're really happy and then you get really bummed out and then you're really happy.

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And I was like, I don't think I'm manic.

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What is that?

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And literally when she asked me that question, I was like, I want to figure this out.

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Because that had been going on for 20 years.

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I would come to work in a place that I liked working with my own company, with friends, working on stuff that I found interesting.

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And I'd come in always excited and I would find myself grumpy at some point during the day.

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And I never understood why.

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And so that was the day I sat down and I said, okay, what am I doing when I'm happy?

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What am I doing when I get grumpy?

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What am I doing this?

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And we came up with the idea that there's six kinds of work, all of which are necessary.

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And I was over indexing on one that I didn't love.

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That wasn't your genius.

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Exactly.

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And I would come to work wanting to do my geniuses.

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I didn't even know what geniuses were.

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00:13:29.374 --> 00:13:31.875
And I kept getting sucked into the same thing.

213
00:13:32.296 --> 00:13:33.497
And everybody go, well, you have to do that.

214
00:13:34.138 --> 00:13:34.919
Yeah, you have to do that.

215
00:13:35.759 --> 00:13:38.481
And I started resenting it without even understanding what it was.

216
00:13:39.222 --> 00:13:41.784
And so I came up with these six, explained it.

217
00:13:42.264 --> 00:13:44.766
I thought, hey, I just explained my own problem.

218
00:13:45.166 --> 00:13:47.628
But other people saw it and said, no, I think that applies to me too.

219
00:13:48.329 --> 00:13:52.772
And one of our consultants, the very first night we came up with it, we showed it to him.

220
00:13:52.832 --> 00:13:58.436
The next day he went and sat down with the CEO and the CEO was going, man, I'm really frustrated in my work.

221
00:13:58.877 --> 00:14:01.058
He goes, hey, what do you think of these six things?

222
00:14:01.839 --> 00:14:05.941
And the guy literally teared up and said, well, that's my whole problem right there.

223
00:14:06.861 --> 00:14:10.963
And so we were like, there's something here that's deeper than just Pat solving his problem.

224
00:14:11.744 --> 00:14:18.527
So we had a, you know, rolling whiteboard in my living room and we just literally work on it all the time.

225
00:14:18.547 --> 00:14:19.967
I'd go to work and we'd talk about it.

226
00:14:20.027 --> 00:14:25.870
And then five months later we had developed an assessment and launched it with no marketing and it just started growing.

227
00:14:25.890 --> 00:14:26.490
Because it hits.

228
00:14:27.171 --> 00:14:29.772
This is the thing about a good idea, right?

229
00:14:29.792 --> 00:14:30.132
Yeah.

230
00:14:30.632 --> 00:14:32.072
It takes off because people feel it.

231
00:14:32.433 --> 00:14:33.093
Word of mouth.

232
00:14:33.773 --> 00:14:37.354
And what Jim Collins said to me was, you know, face validity.

233
00:14:38.014 --> 00:14:41.355
When people look at it and go, that is totally true.

234
00:14:41.775 --> 00:14:44.176
He said, that's more important than any statistical analysis.

235
00:14:44.236 --> 00:14:50.117
It's because you put a word or a couple words to a feeling that people couldn't articulate.

236
00:14:50.597 --> 00:14:51.478
And I've even tried.

237
00:14:51.498 --> 00:14:52.518
So people always ask.

238
00:14:54.482 --> 00:15:00.944
when they chat with me, have some young entrepreneur just asking, I have like five different business ideas, like which one should I focus on?

239
00:15:01.424 --> 00:15:04.825
And I've never been able to articulate what you've really done here.

240
00:15:04.945 --> 00:15:06.605
I just say, follow what gives you energy.

241
00:15:06.625 --> 00:15:09.026
Because that's what I do in my life.

242
00:15:09.066 --> 00:15:10.706
I just follow what gives me energy.

243
00:15:10.826 --> 00:15:12.787
But it's not just in work, it's in everything.

244
00:15:13.247 --> 00:15:13.787
Absolutely.

245
00:15:14.087 --> 00:15:17.708
And I want to talk about how this plays into other areas of your life, but I don't want to go there just yet.

246
00:15:19.582 --> 00:15:21.003
What is the work?

247
00:15:21.023 --> 00:15:25.587
Like when I, when I asked what is the working genius you've described, but I mean, is it personality?

248
00:15:25.848 --> 00:15:27.069
Is it psychology?

249
00:15:27.129 --> 00:15:28.130
Is it subconscious?

250
00:15:28.270 --> 00:15:28.930
Is it work?

251
00:15:28.990 --> 00:15:31.172
Like what is the myriad of factors?

252
00:15:31.573 --> 00:15:32.333
I love the question.

253
00:15:32.894 --> 00:15:36.517
I think a good way to look at this is to compare it to other assessments out there.

254
00:15:36.537 --> 00:15:37.858
Cause I'm a junkie for them all.

255
00:15:38.779 --> 00:15:42.542
I think learning about yourself and categories and stuff is interesting as long as it's real.

256
00:15:43.583 --> 00:15:47.706
And, and so we did the Myers-Briggs and disc and I can, we can talk about all those.

257
00:15:48.326 --> 00:16:00.015
There was none that actually described the verb of what, what you like to do, not just who you are or what your general preferences are in life, but like getting stuff done.

258
00:16:01.122 --> 00:16:02.323
And that's what this came down to.

259
00:16:02.643 --> 00:16:04.624
And that's what makes working genius what it is.

260
00:16:04.844 --> 00:16:08.025
And if I could title it again, I think it's still right to call it working genius.

261
00:16:08.125 --> 00:16:11.387
It's doing genius because it doesn't have to be at work and could be at home.

262
00:16:11.907 --> 00:16:14.148
But it's how do you get things done?

263
00:16:14.448 --> 00:16:18.450
Which parts of the process really resonate with you and which parts just drive you crazy?

264
00:16:19.230 --> 00:16:20.491
So I think that's what it is.

265
00:16:20.871 --> 00:16:22.372
It's about, and I think it's hardwired.

266
00:16:22.412 --> 00:16:23.372
I think it's Godwired.

267
00:16:24.953 --> 00:16:29.615
I talk to people and they can go back to their childhood and remember like, I always wanted to do things like this.

268
00:16:30.224 --> 00:16:33.165
I didn't get to exercise my geniuses until I got into my late 20s.

269
00:16:34.425 --> 00:16:36.005
Because nobody really recognized them.

270
00:16:36.286 --> 00:16:39.446
They're not the kind that you get recognized for when you're a little kid.

271
00:16:39.966 --> 00:16:42.627
There's a couple of these that are like little kids that have them.

272
00:16:43.167 --> 00:16:47.348
The teachers are like, my best student, my favorite athlete, the best kid in my family.

273
00:16:47.768 --> 00:16:49.649
Because they do what you ask them and they finish.

274
00:16:50.903 --> 00:16:52.745
And those are two of the geniuses.

275
00:16:53.525 --> 00:16:54.466
I have neither of those.

276
00:16:56.208 --> 00:16:57.288
So I was grinding.

277
00:16:57.909 --> 00:17:01.052
School for me was a grind.

278
00:17:01.432 --> 00:17:05.716
And even work was a grind until I got old enough to go, I don't have to do that.

279
00:17:07.537 --> 00:17:19.047
And so the point here is that this is based on how we're wired and what feeds us when we're at work, at doing things, in activity.

280
00:17:19.067 --> 00:17:19.187
Right.

281
00:17:20.019 --> 00:17:33.091
And I would even say that some of the things you mentioned about growing up and you weren't able to actually live your genes until you were older, sometimes, I'm going to make an assumption here, and I think you're going to probably agree with me, but I want your perspective on this.

282
00:17:33.772 --> 00:17:35.553
I've always felt that a lot of what we...

283
00:17:36.708 --> 00:17:40.431
our worldview is based on what our parents thought was right and wrong, right?

284
00:17:40.451 --> 00:17:43.314
Like from a young age, like they said, this is a job you should do.

285
00:17:43.374 --> 00:17:44.695
This is the school you should go to.

286
00:17:44.715 --> 00:17:45.836
This is who you should date.

287
00:17:46.236 --> 00:17:48.318
So a lot of that's ingrained in our subconscious.

288
00:17:48.999 --> 00:18:01.570
So now when I'm thinking about like your working geniuses and what you are naturally inclined to do, you may not be, you may not even be aware of it because your parents' genius, they imprinted on you from a young age and they thought,

289
00:18:02.150 --> 00:18:13.119
So a more real example, as opposed to speaking at high level, when your parents are putting you into certain sports or certain activities, you're saying, this is what you should do because this is what I wanted to do when I was a character.

290
00:18:13.159 --> 00:18:13.639
Oh, man.

291
00:18:13.759 --> 00:18:19.023
And they're pushing you to do things that are actually not what you actually enjoy doing or not your genius.

292
00:18:19.344 --> 00:18:29.411
And then you grow up not only with incorrect expectations about what a good life looks like that's been imprinted on you from your parents, but also how you should operate in life.

293
00:18:30.230 --> 00:18:34.078
And I think that that creates a lot of misery, depression, anxiety.

294
00:18:34.439 --> 00:18:37.164
So I'll go back to when I was seven years old.

295
00:18:38.006 --> 00:18:44.069
My dad loved mowing the lawn and I loved my dad and I was, and I wanted him to love me.

296
00:18:44.970 --> 00:18:51.733
He wanted me to mow and he would get me up on Saturday mornings, which when I wanted to watch cartoons back then, that was when cartoons were on.

297
00:18:51.993 --> 00:18:55.535
He watched them on Saturday or you missed them and, and major league baseball.

298
00:18:56.316 --> 00:18:58.797
And I would get up and help him mow the lawn and I hated it.

299
00:18:59.197 --> 00:19:04.200
And I felt so guilty because he wanted me to follow him around and, and he would,

300
00:19:05.492 --> 00:19:07.794
do something, rake leaves and say, pick this pile up.

301
00:19:08.175 --> 00:19:11.338
And then if I missed any of the leaves, he'd say, nope, still not done.

302
00:19:11.919 --> 00:19:16.103
Whereas the way I would have done it would have been like him saying, hey, look at the yard.

303
00:19:16.323 --> 00:19:19.306
Why don't you envision what kind of yard you want to have and how you would go about doing it?

304
00:19:19.326 --> 00:19:21.909
And I would have owned it and made some of my own decisions.

305
00:19:22.570 --> 00:19:23.311
I didn't know it.

306
00:19:23.431 --> 00:19:25.193
It wasn't that I didn't want to mow the lawn.

307
00:19:25.293 --> 00:19:26.934
I didn't want to do it the way he wanted me to.

308
00:19:27.635 --> 00:19:29.097
But I had no language for that.

309
00:19:29.497 --> 00:19:32.840
And I remember for years feeling guilty, like, why don't I like helping my dad mow the lawn?

310
00:19:32.880 --> 00:19:37.886
He loves mowing the lawn, but he liked, he had a certain way of doing things that did not correspond to mine.

311
00:19:39.027 --> 00:19:44.453
And literally five years ago when we came up with this, I was like, oh, that's why.

312
00:19:44.493 --> 00:19:45.754
I wish I could tell my dad.

313
00:19:46.395 --> 00:19:47.716
It wasn't that I didn't want to do it.

314
00:19:47.736 --> 00:19:49.458
It was that I didn't like doing it that way.

315
00:19:50.160 --> 00:19:57.393
So how do you, so when you think about this idea, people are going to, you know, read the book, take the assessment, figure out what kind of work they should do.

316
00:19:57.974 --> 00:20:01.580
But outside of work, how do you bring this framework to the rest of your life?

317
00:20:02.562 --> 00:20:09.805
One of the things as a parent, I have four sons, understanding that they're all different and understanding they're different in this way.

318
00:20:09.825 --> 00:20:15.948
And we knew like Myers-Briggs and all that stuff, but we never realized they were going to study differently.

319
00:20:16.448 --> 00:20:18.469
They were going to clean their room differently.

320
00:20:18.789 --> 00:20:23.831
They were going to go about organizing their things on a day-to-day basis differently differently.

321
00:20:24.431 --> 00:20:28.394
And so I'm going to, you have W as a genius, the wonder.

322
00:20:28.434 --> 00:20:29.955
The first genius is called wonder.

323
00:20:30.575 --> 00:20:31.896
That means you like to ponder things.

324
00:20:31.916 --> 00:20:32.796
You're deep in thought.

325
00:20:33.597 --> 00:20:39.020
You're asking questions in your brain, sometimes outside of your brain, a lot.

326
00:20:39.361 --> 00:20:41.182
Three of my four children are Ws.

327
00:20:42.031 --> 00:20:44.613
Do you know how often when they're young, you're like, how come you aren't doing this?

328
00:20:45.013 --> 00:20:45.513
What are you doing?

329
00:20:45.553 --> 00:20:47.735
Why are you not acting on this?

330
00:20:48.135 --> 00:20:50.917
And because you can't even see what's going on in their brain.

331
00:20:51.598 --> 00:20:54.780
And now that they're older, I'm like, oh my gosh, they're all wonderers.

332
00:20:54.840 --> 00:20:55.921
My wife is a wonderer.

333
00:20:56.461 --> 00:21:01.205
So they have processes going on in their brain that other people that don't have that as a genius...

334
00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:02.540
Just don't do.

335
00:21:03.020 --> 00:21:06.401
In fact, other people will hear about the wonder genius and they'll go, I don't have that one.

336
00:21:06.441 --> 00:21:08.502
I can't do that for more than five minutes at a time.

337
00:21:09.022 --> 00:21:14.084
Whereas four of the six people in my family can sit and ponder things for hours.

338
00:21:15.184 --> 00:21:15.905
And you know what's funny?

339
00:21:17.225 --> 00:21:19.026
That is where all new ideas come from.

340
00:21:19.946 --> 00:21:21.146
From this kind of person.

341
00:21:21.527 --> 00:21:21.847
Yeah.

342
00:21:22.047 --> 00:21:22.267
Yeah.

343
00:21:22.547 --> 00:21:23.927
They ask the question.

344
00:21:25.148 --> 00:21:28.689
They sit there and they go, I don't think this is the right way anymore.

345
00:21:30.249 --> 00:21:31.830
There should be a different kind of podcast.

346
00:21:33.300 --> 00:21:36.684
Do you think our listeners would like it if we did something else?

347
00:21:37.144 --> 00:21:39.266
Which is what I'm, okay, we're going to talk about me after, after.

348
00:21:39.446 --> 00:21:41.388
Yes, all the time, always wondering.

349
00:21:41.448 --> 00:21:43.090
And that's where every new idea comes from.

350
00:21:43.170 --> 00:21:44.712
Somebody asks, remember this thing?

351
00:21:44.912 --> 00:21:46.614
Amy asked the question, why are you like that?

352
00:21:46.654 --> 00:21:47.835
She was curious.

353
00:21:48.215 --> 00:21:50.658
She was literally like, what makes you like that?

354
00:21:52.291 --> 00:21:57.312
And that was the question that made me say, I don't know, but I want to figure it out.

355
00:21:57.532 --> 00:22:01.393
See, that W, the wonder, leads to the next one, which is invention.

356
00:22:02.213 --> 00:22:03.933
And I'm an inventor, but not a wonderer.

357
00:22:04.934 --> 00:22:09.235
So it's when other people come to me with a big question, I'm like, please let me try to figure that out.

358
00:22:09.735 --> 00:22:10.775
See, we need each other.

359
00:22:11.555 --> 00:22:17.236
That's why my wife decided it should be gears, because they each feed and turn one another.

360
00:22:18.236 --> 00:22:20.637
And so your wonder fires up my invention.

361
00:22:21.713 --> 00:22:24.435
Somebody asked to ponder the big questions.

362
00:22:24.495 --> 00:22:27.296
And what are the other geniuses?

363
00:22:27.576 --> 00:22:28.717
And then I want to get into mine.

364
00:22:29.057 --> 00:22:31.118
So those are the first two, and that's called ideation.

365
00:22:32.199 --> 00:22:34.100
The new ideas come from wonder and invention.

366
00:22:34.120 --> 00:22:37.242
You're half of ideation, and I'm the other half.

367
00:22:39.087 --> 00:22:40.628
The next one is called discernment.

368
00:22:40.648 --> 00:22:46.771
That's where I come up with an idea and I go to somebody and I say, what is your gut telling you about that?

369
00:22:46.971 --> 00:22:49.413
And some people have this remarkable gut instinct.

370
00:22:49.433 --> 00:22:50.153
It's not magic.

371
00:22:50.213 --> 00:22:56.256
It's called pattern recognition and they see variables in different ways.

372
00:22:56.717 --> 00:23:01.639
And you can ask them about something they don't have a lot of detail about and they'll say, I'm pretty sure the answer is like this.

373
00:23:01.659 --> 00:23:02.600
And you say, how do you know?

374
00:23:02.620 --> 00:23:03.140
And they go, I don't know.

375
00:23:03.200 --> 00:23:03.520
I don't know.

376
00:23:03.560 --> 00:23:04.861
I just, my gut telling me that.

377
00:23:05.001 --> 00:23:06.342
They've seen it again and again.

378
00:23:06.362 --> 00:23:08.123
I've watched this movie before, you know?

379
00:23:08.663 --> 00:23:09.243
Exactly.

380
00:23:09.283 --> 00:23:10.324
And that's called discernment.

381
00:23:10.344 --> 00:23:10.924
That's the third.

382
00:23:12.465 --> 00:23:14.726
After discernment comes galvanizing.

383
00:23:14.987 --> 00:23:20.790
That's the person who gets joy and energy rallying the troops, interrupting people going, come on, let's do this.

384
00:23:21.030 --> 00:23:21.870
Stop what you're doing.

385
00:23:22.070 --> 00:23:22.871
I have a better idea.

386
00:23:22.931 --> 00:23:24.072
Come on, here we go.

387
00:23:24.092 --> 00:23:26.493
I don't like doing that.

388
00:23:27.483 --> 00:23:28.864
And I was doing it every day at work.

389
00:23:29.684 --> 00:23:33.126
And I'd come to work and they'd go galvanize, galvanize, galvanize.

390
00:23:33.166 --> 00:23:36.768
I'd get kind of pissed off because I was like, I don't want to galvanize.

391
00:23:37.008 --> 00:23:38.589
Well, you're the CEO.

392
00:23:39.009 --> 00:23:39.730
See, that's the other thing.

393
00:23:39.750 --> 00:23:41.531
If you're the leader, you think you're supposed to do all of them.

394
00:23:42.791 --> 00:23:44.912
And no, no two CEOs are the same.

395
00:23:45.473 --> 00:23:46.833
I wasn't great at galvanizing.

396
00:23:47.474 --> 00:23:50.676
And it was okay that I found somebody on my team that could help me galvanize.

397
00:23:51.716 --> 00:23:52.837
So everybody is...

398
00:23:54.097 --> 00:23:56.919
One or two or multiple or... Everybody's got two.

399
00:23:56.959 --> 00:23:57.639
Everybody's got two.

400
00:23:57.759 --> 00:23:59.660
That is just their feeding genius.

401
00:24:00.040 --> 00:24:00.280
Okay.

402
00:24:00.461 --> 00:24:05.283
You put that combo together and you let them work in those areas and they're like, it's not even work anymore.

403
00:24:05.703 --> 00:24:06.004
Okay.

404
00:24:06.064 --> 00:24:10.126
So let's go through mine and this will frame up how to sort of interpret it because...

405
00:24:10.746 --> 00:24:14.427
even before we press record, you're telling me a little bit about my genius.

406
00:24:14.907 --> 00:24:16.867
And then as you're describing it, I'm like, oh shit.

407
00:24:17.408 --> 00:24:19.448
Like, yes, that makes a lot of sense.

408
00:24:19.848 --> 00:24:22.209
So I don't remember what mine are.

409
00:24:22.309 --> 00:24:25.710
So I remember W. So I'm a wanderer.

410
00:24:25.810 --> 00:24:28.650
I think and I brainstorm and I come up with these new ideas.

411
00:24:28.990 --> 00:24:30.911
But then what's the other WT?

412
00:24:31.031 --> 00:24:33.071
T. So T is the last one.

413
00:24:33.211 --> 00:24:39.973
So after I went to G, then comes E, which is called enablement, which is like there are people that come alongside and enable other people's ideas to play.

414
00:24:40.693 --> 00:24:43.234
And they're like, I will help you on your terms.

415
00:24:43.914 --> 00:24:45.615
I don't have that.

416
00:24:45.635 --> 00:24:47.256
They're the glue in an organization.

417
00:24:47.296 --> 00:24:50.137
When people go, we need help, before they even know what it is, they go, I'll do it.

418
00:24:50.757 --> 00:24:51.317
I love to help.

419
00:24:51.798 --> 00:24:56.680
They literally get joint energy out of coming alongside somebody going, whatever you need, I wanna help you with that.

420
00:24:56.900 --> 00:24:57.280
I understand.

421
00:24:57.300 --> 00:25:01.922
And you can see there's people in helping professions that love their work and you go, how do you do that?

422
00:25:02.182 --> 00:25:04.343
How are you a pediatric nurse?

423
00:25:04.463 --> 00:25:05.623
And they're like, are you kidding?

424
00:25:05.643 --> 00:25:06.044
I love it.

425
00:25:06.304 --> 00:25:09.225
See, one man or woman's trash is another man or woman's treasure.

426
00:25:09.465 --> 00:25:10.526
Yeah, 100%.

427
00:25:10.686 --> 00:25:12.528
Because those are such selfless jobs.

428
00:25:12.588 --> 00:25:15.732
But my God, like doing it as a full-time career for me, I don't even know.

429
00:25:16.152 --> 00:25:18.014
And what's funny is those are wonderful people.

430
00:25:18.034 --> 00:25:18.535
Don't get me wrong.

431
00:25:18.555 --> 00:25:18.915
They are.

432
00:25:19.055 --> 00:25:20.937
But if they'll tell you, no, you don't understand.

433
00:25:20.957 --> 00:25:21.918
I like this.

434
00:25:22.459 --> 00:25:22.659
Yeah.

435
00:25:23.159 --> 00:25:26.523
And they'll say to me, hey, you give speeches for a living.

436
00:25:26.723 --> 00:25:27.764
And I'm like, yeah, who wouldn't?

437
00:25:27.864 --> 00:25:28.265
And they're like...

438
00:25:29.449 --> 00:25:30.730
That's my greatest fear in the world.

439
00:25:31.210 --> 00:25:35.794
So the thing I find very easy, they hate.

440
00:25:36.734 --> 00:25:38.836
And that's the beautiful thing about working genius.

441
00:25:38.976 --> 00:25:39.916
A team takes this.

442
00:25:40.257 --> 00:25:45.020
They look at each one of those working geniuses and they're like, hey, we should probably not make you do that anymore, huh?

443
00:25:45.040 --> 00:25:46.021
And they're like, are you kidding?

444
00:25:46.081 --> 00:25:47.282
I would love it if I didn't have to do that.

445
00:25:47.522 --> 00:25:48.543
Well, I love doing that.

446
00:25:48.603 --> 00:25:49.984
Give me that and you can do this.

447
00:25:50.564 --> 00:25:53.226
Literally, that happens without any.

448
00:25:54.007 --> 00:25:56.949
You just look at the report and people are like, oh, I know what we can do.

449
00:25:57.669 --> 00:25:59.391
And productivity goes up right away.

450
00:25:59.411 --> 00:26:01.613
But anyway, we're going to go to T now.

451
00:26:01.853 --> 00:26:03.774
The last genius is called tenacity.

452
00:26:04.415 --> 00:26:08.138
And that's the T. And that's finishing things, getting things done.

453
00:26:08.999 --> 00:26:09.259
Okay.

454
00:26:09.700 --> 00:26:13.023
So you have a very unique combination.

455
00:26:14.137 --> 00:26:16.579
You live at 50,000 feet in the clouds.

456
00:26:16.599 --> 00:26:17.899
You ask the big questions.

457
00:26:18.640 --> 00:26:22.022
You're like pondering things and why is it like this and what's going on?

458
00:26:23.022 --> 00:26:27.685
But you also have one at the other end, which is, but I don't like things to not get done.

459
00:26:28.846 --> 00:26:29.146
Right?

460
00:26:29.987 --> 00:26:31.588
And you described yourself earlier.

461
00:26:32.148 --> 00:26:33.609
It's not that you want to make other people do it.

462
00:26:33.629 --> 00:26:35.230
You're like, crap, I'll just do it.

463
00:26:36.145 --> 00:26:36.625
Too often.

464
00:26:36.866 --> 00:26:37.046
Yeah.

465
00:26:37.326 --> 00:26:37.706
Oh, yeah.

466
00:26:37.726 --> 00:26:38.407
Way too often.

467
00:26:38.467 --> 00:26:44.331
That's your, and so you have this natural tendency, WTs, you're called the careful, thoughtful implementer.

468
00:26:45.171 --> 00:26:51.195
So you're thoughtful and careful and thinking about the nuances, but then you run right to the end and go, but we've got to get this done.

469
00:26:51.215 --> 00:26:54.137
And we call that altitude sickness.

470
00:26:55.538 --> 00:26:58.440
Because you're like, up here, down here, up here, down here.

471
00:26:58.460 --> 00:27:01.163
And it's a very unique type.

472
00:27:01.763 --> 00:27:06.887
And I would say the advice I give to all WTs is try to do them separately.

473
00:27:07.287 --> 00:27:14.573
When you have T work to do, tenacity, let yourself do that and tell your W brain, hey, right now I'm in T mode.

474
00:27:14.953 --> 00:27:15.874
I'm just going to crank.

475
00:27:17.044 --> 00:27:20.372
And the W part of you is like, but why are we even doing this?

476
00:27:20.452 --> 00:27:22.777
And you're like, not the right time to ask that question.

477
00:27:22.797 --> 00:27:27.287
In all seriousness, to sort of lay out how this plays out in real life for me?

478
00:27:28.890 --> 00:27:35.715
And this is not going to be best good advice for people, but this is a reality that I experienced, especially when I was first starting this podcast.

479
00:27:35.816 --> 00:27:55.471
Like I'd get a bad edit back from my editor and I would be simultaneously redoing the edit myself while also researching and like alt-tabbing between like watching podcasts and coming up with new ideas for new questions and new formats while, you know, in Adobe Premiere editing the podcast myself, which is quite literally the definition of what you're describing.

480
00:27:55.491 --> 00:27:55.972
Exactly.

481
00:27:56.412 --> 00:27:58.933
And that to me is, and you know what?

482
00:27:59.773 --> 00:28:05.115
It's like this compulsion to do both all the time because if I'm not doing one, I feel like I'm missing out.

483
00:28:05.355 --> 00:28:05.975
Exactly.

484
00:28:05.995 --> 00:28:15.518
So if I'm the one who's doing the work, the getting the stuff done work, the tenacity work, I feel like I'm missing out on the opportunity and I'm missing out on the new trend or the new idea.

485
00:28:15.538 --> 00:28:16.578
It's like internal FOMO.

486
00:28:16.838 --> 00:28:17.739
Yeah, 100%.

487
00:28:17.839 --> 00:28:18.599
And it'll drive you crazy.

488
00:28:18.619 --> 00:28:23.663
And you get nothing done because then you're switching back and forth and there's this context switching that's constantly going on tiring you.

489
00:28:23.964 --> 00:28:27.406
And it's so good for you to go, that's why, that's the beauty of this.

490
00:28:27.426 --> 00:28:27.947
Thank you, God.

491
00:28:29.255 --> 00:28:30.736
Working genius actually works.

492
00:28:31.757 --> 00:28:32.838
People get so much.

493
00:28:33.178 --> 00:28:35.359
We're doing a thing on marriage and working genius.

494
00:28:35.700 --> 00:28:38.702
There are spouses that argue with one another.

495
00:28:38.862 --> 00:28:42.204
And then we had a guy call us and say, I thought my wife hated me.

496
00:28:42.565 --> 00:28:43.025
We're like, what?

497
00:28:43.045 --> 00:28:44.346
He goes, I thought she hated me.

498
00:28:44.766 --> 00:28:46.027
I realized her working genius.

499
00:28:46.587 --> 00:28:48.169
And now I realize what's really going on.

500
00:28:48.389 --> 00:28:51.091
So you're right now, you're driving yourself crazy.

501
00:28:51.351 --> 00:28:54.393
And to know why that's happening, you can say, what?

502
00:28:54.702 --> 00:29:01.405
oh, I'm doing that thing where I'm having WFOMO and actually thinking I have to go solve the bigger picture problem.

503
00:29:01.425 --> 00:29:07.588
No, give yourself permission just to focus on doing the tenacity work.

504
00:29:08.388 --> 00:29:12.290
And then let yourself go sit up there and focus on that.

505
00:29:12.810 --> 00:29:17.112
Stop the switching costs, stop the guilt, stop the altitude sickness.

506
00:29:17.832 --> 00:29:20.754
Your type more than any needs to separate those things.

507
00:29:21.054 --> 00:29:23.335
And you can tell the people you work with, if you see me...

508
00:29:24.163 --> 00:29:35.104
you know, jumping, parachuting out of the plane to go to the, call me on it and tell me, no, let's actually, you should probably schedule your time for W work versus T work.

509
00:29:35.827 --> 00:29:37.287
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510
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511
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512
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513
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514
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515
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516
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517
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518
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519
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520
00:30:16.135 --> 00:30:19.496
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521
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522
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523
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524
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525
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526
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527
00:30:34.681 --> 00:30:40.284
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528
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529
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530
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531
00:30:45.966 --> 00:30:51.209
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532
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533
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534
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535
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536
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537
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538
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539
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540
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541
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542
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543
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544
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545
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546
00:31:24.961 --> 00:31:26.923
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547
00:31:27.023 --> 00:31:28.765
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548
00:31:28.865 --> 00:31:29.586
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549
00:31:29.786 --> 00:31:32.888
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550
00:31:32.969 --> 00:31:36.711
When we first start our career, we have one income and one account, and you can kind of wing it.

551
00:31:36.951 --> 00:31:44.837
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552
00:31:45.038 --> 00:31:46.058
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553
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554
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555
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556
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557
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558
00:32:02.683 --> 00:32:05.904
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559
00:32:05.964 --> 00:32:09.085
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560
00:32:09.185 --> 00:32:11.345
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561
00:32:11.605 --> 00:32:13.466
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562
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563
00:32:15.606 --> 00:32:20.189
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564
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565
00:32:24.311 --> 00:32:24.911
And you know what?

566
00:32:25.051 --> 00:32:30.935
All of that for me was masked by the fact that it was all in pursuit of something that I love doing.

567
00:32:31.095 --> 00:32:31.415
Yeah.

568
00:32:32.110 --> 00:32:42.473
So this is an example of being in my, so I, you know, I don't know what podcasting falls under, but I love it.

569
00:32:42.513 --> 00:32:46.374
Your W curiosity is why you love this.

570
00:32:47.035 --> 00:32:47.615
I love learning.

571
00:32:47.975 --> 00:32:48.695
Exactly.

572
00:32:49.395 --> 00:32:54.557
And then the T thing means you're going to get it done, but allow yourself to enjoy both.

573
00:32:55.971 --> 00:33:07.834
If we look at all the different types of jobs, building your own business, entrepreneur, working for somebody, are there some people that are destined to be great entrepreneurs or great workers?

574
00:33:08.314 --> 00:33:18.957
Is that tied to their genius or is that just understand how the genius applies to your season of life that you're in, for example, that maybe,

575
00:33:20.713 --> 00:33:28.336
maybe the WT could be a great employee or a great entrepreneur, depending on what's going on in their life.

576
00:33:28.737 --> 00:33:28.957
Yeah.

577
00:33:29.017 --> 00:33:37.140
And it depends on, I mean, because two people with the same working genius, different life circumstances, education, background, as you said before, what your parents tell you is possible.

578
00:33:37.340 --> 00:33:37.600
Yeah.

579
00:33:38.081 --> 00:33:47.525
You know, if a person's never worked anywhere where like you can do anything, I remember when I went to college, my dad said major in accounting economics and computers, because that's where all the jobs are going to be.

580
00:33:48.368 --> 00:33:51.450
And he was right, except I hated all of those things.

581
00:33:51.530 --> 00:33:55.473
And I barely hang on to liberal arts economics.

582
00:33:55.553 --> 00:33:56.514
So that was my background.

583
00:33:56.534 --> 00:33:57.715
We didn't, we hadn't gone to college.

584
00:33:58.055 --> 00:34:09.364
But to the answer to your question, whether you're an entrepreneur or a CEO or whatever you do is less about your working genius and more about you knowing what it is and surrounding yourself with people who fill in your gaps.

585
00:34:10.705 --> 00:34:13.867
So like you're a WT and you go, okay.

586
00:34:14.521 --> 00:34:19.224
I got the first part of this wondering covered, and I got the tea covered.

587
00:34:19.844 --> 00:34:23.406
But I should hire some people who love other parts of this.

588
00:34:24.247 --> 00:34:31.591
So no CEO is limited by their working genius, except if they don't bring other people in and trust them to do the things they're bad at.

589
00:34:32.512 --> 00:34:39.456
And now, when people say, am I going to be an entrepreneur that comes up with a new idea every day, a serial entrepreneur?

590
00:34:39.776 --> 00:34:41.397
No, they're going to have some W, I, and D.

591
00:34:42.648 --> 00:34:44.650
An ET is not going to be a serial entrepreneur.

592
00:34:44.670 --> 00:34:45.892
That's called the loyal finisher.

593
00:34:46.913 --> 00:34:50.177
That's the, I will do what you ask me to, and I will get it done.

594
00:34:50.337 --> 00:34:52.039
And people, you can rely on me.

595
00:34:52.339 --> 00:34:53.320
I've already started it.

596
00:34:53.721 --> 00:34:55.823
I will never stop until it's done.

597
00:34:56.103 --> 00:34:58.226
And you can take your eye off the ball now because I got it.

598
00:34:59.235 --> 00:35:04.536
That person does not have a proclivity for like, let's just start a new thing now.

599
00:35:04.856 --> 00:35:08.997
They're much more like, no, please give me clear parameters and I want to finish things.

600
00:35:09.557 --> 00:35:11.237
So yeah, there are certain limits in there.

601
00:35:11.697 --> 00:35:16.518
But that ET might go, I think I came up with a new idea or I see an idea that we should start something around.

602
00:35:16.538 --> 00:35:18.538
I better hire other people that can do the things I don't like.

603
00:35:19.619 --> 00:35:26.860
Is there ever a circumstance where your working genius actually, from my own perspective, the tea, the tenacity,

604
00:35:28.214 --> 00:35:29.295
I'm doing things myself.

605
00:35:29.595 --> 00:35:32.096
So does my working genius sometimes get in my own way?

606
00:35:32.156 --> 00:35:32.397
Sure.

607
00:35:33.297 --> 00:35:33.597
Yeah.

608
00:35:33.837 --> 00:35:34.478
I have no tea.

609
00:35:35.318 --> 00:35:36.579
I will never do things myself.

610
00:35:37.399 --> 00:35:38.820
I cannot do things myself.

611
00:35:39.321 --> 00:35:46.265
I remember when I started my company, my dad, I left, I was the vice president of organizational development at a company.

612
00:35:46.585 --> 00:35:48.186
And I said, I'm starting my own firm, dad.

613
00:35:48.506 --> 00:35:49.527
This was 28 years ago.

614
00:35:49.547 --> 00:35:51.228
And he goes, oh, no, no, you have benefits though.

615
00:35:51.248 --> 00:35:51.708
Yeah.

616
00:35:51.828 --> 00:35:53.870
You know, that's that mindset.

617
00:35:54.091 --> 00:35:57.234
And I said, no, but me and these other four people are going to start this business.

618
00:35:57.294 --> 00:35:59.136
And he goes, oh, no, don't take anybody else with you.

619
00:35:59.156 --> 00:36:00.397
You might not be able to afford to pay them.

620
00:36:01.078 --> 00:36:01.899
I said, oh, no, no.

621
00:36:01.939 --> 00:36:07.585
If I don't take them with me, I'll never make any money because I can't do half the shit stuff that we're supposed to be doing.

622
00:36:08.206 --> 00:36:09.567
And I need them to do it.

623
00:36:10.583 --> 00:36:12.685
So the original question was.

624
00:36:13.165 --> 00:36:16.368
It was, does it ever, does part of your own working genius ever hurt you?

625
00:36:16.608 --> 00:36:21.792
Yes, because if you think I'm a T, you might have to get out of the T business.

626
00:36:21.892 --> 00:36:22.132
Yeah.

627
00:36:22.593 --> 00:36:27.777
But you'll be much more, because a WT will often go, I wish other people would do this.

628
00:36:28.457 --> 00:36:29.378
I'll just do it myself.

629
00:36:30.619 --> 00:36:32.641
And that, then you're using your time.

630
00:36:33.281 --> 00:36:38.145
Probably if you're running a business and you're starting to hire people, you need to let them finish some things.

631
00:36:39.810 --> 00:36:47.112
One thing that you mentioned, which I thought was a really interesting, you mentioned God several times and you call these geniuses gifts from God.

632
00:36:47.152 --> 00:36:48.112
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

633
00:36:50.393 --> 00:36:56.414
Do you think that too many people feel like they have total control over their own life?

634
00:36:56.734 --> 00:37:03.456
And what I mean by that is they feel like they can change their genius or they can alter it if it doesn't suit their circumstance.

635
00:37:04.051 --> 00:37:05.113
Oh, yeah, it's misery.

636
00:37:05.734 --> 00:37:07.896
So I was just talking to somebody about this before.

637
00:37:07.916 --> 00:37:09.699
They said like 10,000 hours is how many.

638
00:37:10.280 --> 00:37:10.920
That's what I'm thinking.

639
00:37:10.940 --> 00:37:13.984
Like someone's going to read this and be like, well, I can learn how to eat or learn.

640
00:37:14.005 --> 00:37:14.165
Yeah.

641
00:37:15.269 --> 00:37:16.909
Well, like think of a guy like Tiger Woods.

642
00:37:17.169 --> 00:37:19.830
Was he meant to be a professional golfer?

643
00:37:19.970 --> 00:37:20.570
I don't know.

644
00:37:20.630 --> 00:37:26.552
But his dad, when he was three years old, you know, he was on the on TV golfing at three years old.

645
00:37:27.192 --> 00:37:29.692
Anybody can can get good at something.

646
00:37:30.092 --> 00:37:31.053
It doesn't mean they love it.

647
00:37:31.213 --> 00:37:32.733
It doesn't mean it gives them joy and energy.

648
00:37:32.853 --> 00:37:41.775
In fact, when you get good at something out of over practicing that doesn't feed you, you're setting yourself up for massive psychological challenges.

649
00:37:42.776 --> 00:37:45.558
because you're not meant to do things against the grain.

650
00:37:45.798 --> 00:37:54.625
So you're born, and I like to say, so God gave me the gifts of invention and discernment, and he gave me no enablement and tenacity.

651
00:37:56.607 --> 00:38:06.055
I have to do my best to tolerate enablement and tenacity and get things done, but if I try to be great at those, I'm really rewiring myself in a way that's not healthy.

652
00:38:07.367 --> 00:38:11.510
And other people are going to see me getting good at those things and they're going to ask me to keep doing it.

653
00:38:12.130 --> 00:38:12.710
Yeah, that's true.

654
00:38:12.810 --> 00:38:17.613
That's why I got that job because I knew how to interview for a job with enablement and tenacity.

655
00:38:18.214 --> 00:38:19.154
That's not who I was.

656
00:38:19.194 --> 00:38:21.275
So they were like, okay, yeah, we're going to hire you to do this.

657
00:38:21.676 --> 00:38:23.097
The problem is I had to go work there.

658
00:38:24.477 --> 00:38:26.739
So we are meant to lean into who we are.

659
00:38:27.219 --> 00:38:30.381
The other thing I like to say about gifts are we all have gifts.

660
00:38:30.941 --> 00:38:31.982
Some people never open them.

661
00:38:33.881 --> 00:38:40.824
I like to think that imagine if Scott, I came by and I dropped off a gift for you and you weren't home and I gave it to your wife.

662
00:38:41.084 --> 00:38:44.346
And I said, I designed this gift exactly for Scott.

663
00:38:44.626 --> 00:38:46.887
It's totally customized for exactly who he is.

664
00:38:47.327 --> 00:38:49.488
And she put it in the closet and forgot to tell you about it.

665
00:38:50.689 --> 00:38:53.610
And you never got to open it or you opened it, but you never used it.

666
00:38:53.870 --> 00:38:55.030
We are all meant.

667
00:38:55.050 --> 00:39:00.733
There's nothing selfish about saying I'm meant to use the gifts that God gave me for the betterment of others.

668
00:39:01.812 --> 00:39:02.872
And that's a win-win.

669
00:39:03.092 --> 00:39:03.352
Yeah.

670
00:39:04.093 --> 00:39:13.935
And when we don't ever open up those gifts or think we're not entitled to or that it's selfish to want to do work that we enjoy, that's not ordered.

671
00:39:14.735 --> 00:39:15.335
It's interesting.

672
00:39:15.595 --> 00:39:24.177
It's interesting that people, I know that you've, we've sort of danced around why people believe that to be true, but it just, I had a hard time with that for a long time.

673
00:39:24.636 --> 00:39:29.599
I had a hard time understanding that you could make money doing things that you enjoy.

674
00:39:30.360 --> 00:39:31.640
I had a really hard time with that.

675
00:39:31.941 --> 00:39:40.786
It was actually, I have to give a lot of credit to Gina because she's the one who sort of said, hey, life doesn't always have to be hard.

676
00:39:40.846 --> 00:39:41.927
You don't have to.

677
00:39:42.627 --> 00:39:43.107
And you know,

678
00:39:45.423 --> 00:39:45.763
I don't know.

679
00:39:46.444 --> 00:39:47.104
No, that's...

680
00:39:47.184 --> 00:39:47.585
I don't know.

681
00:39:47.665 --> 00:39:50.167
I think that, you know, my parents worked very hard.

682
00:39:50.747 --> 00:39:52.169
They provided a very good life.

683
00:39:53.610 --> 00:39:55.731
And I just thought, you know, I got to kind of do that.

684
00:39:55.932 --> 00:39:56.232
Yeah.

685
00:39:57.333 --> 00:39:59.915
It's great to be able to for short periods of time.

686
00:40:01.080 --> 00:40:05.926
I mean, imagine if something happened, you're like, I have to dig ditches to feed my family.

687
00:40:06.406 --> 00:40:07.908
Did you ever see the movie Cinderella Man?

688
00:40:07.928 --> 00:40:08.308
Yeah, yeah.

689
00:40:08.508 --> 00:40:09.309
I love that movie.

690
00:40:09.470 --> 00:40:10.971
And he's like out on the docks.

691
00:40:11.011 --> 00:40:11.212
Yeah.

692
00:40:11.392 --> 00:40:13.074
And he's going to do anything to feed his family.

693
00:40:13.094 --> 00:40:14.555
That is virtuous and good.

694
00:40:15.176 --> 00:40:18.019
And sometimes you live in a situation where that's all you got.

695
00:40:18.760 --> 00:40:30.444
But when you have the opportunity to, and by the way, you'll be a better father and a better husband and a better friend when you're not coming home from work ticked off that you're doing stuff that crushes you.

696
00:40:30.885 --> 00:40:33.986
But everybody should be able to tolerate that and offer that up.

697
00:40:34.546 --> 00:40:37.107
But don't put yourself in that situation on purpose.

698
00:40:37.467 --> 00:40:38.708
It's almost like people seek it out.

699
00:40:39.108 --> 00:40:39.468
I know.

700
00:40:39.528 --> 00:40:42.949
It's almost like you said, it's this kind of guilt.

701
00:40:43.669 --> 00:40:45.150
Like it's supposed to be hard.

702
00:40:46.389 --> 00:40:46.589
Yeah.

703
00:40:46.870 --> 00:40:47.730
And you know what?

704
00:40:47.810 --> 00:40:49.772
The issue is it.

705
00:40:51.254 --> 00:40:57.360
The issue is that if you seek out hard work and it benefits you, you're like, oh, I've just validated my own belief system.

706
00:40:58.401 --> 00:41:01.124
Yeah, you're in for you will eventually burn out.

707
00:41:01.344 --> 00:41:04.047
And by the way, burnout is not working too hard.

708
00:41:05.030 --> 00:41:07.312
When people go, I'm burnt out, and everybody says the same thing.

709
00:41:07.392 --> 00:41:13.257
And it's why when somebody burns out and they tell them, you should take time off, take a vacation, and they're like, they don't seem happy about that.

710
00:41:13.617 --> 00:41:18.401
It's because what they're looking for is not time away from the work they don't like.

711
00:41:18.781 --> 00:41:21.923
They're looking for, could you please just give me something to do that I love?

712
00:41:22.324 --> 00:41:22.464
Mm-hmm.

713
00:41:23.267 --> 00:41:28.689
And so when I can work for 12 hours and go home at night, Laura will be like, you're really excited.

714
00:41:28.729 --> 00:41:29.329
What's going on?

715
00:41:29.689 --> 00:41:31.709
I got to work in my geniuses all day.

716
00:41:31.729 --> 00:41:33.930
I was a bank teller as a kid.

717
00:41:33.990 --> 00:41:35.290
It is the worst job for me.

718
00:41:36.311 --> 00:41:38.831
Two hours in, I was like, oh no.

719
00:41:38.931 --> 00:41:41.732
I swear I'd look at the clock and it would go backwards sometimes.

720
00:41:41.752 --> 00:41:43.773
I was like, this is- I know exactly the feeling.

721
00:41:43.793 --> 00:41:45.913
I've worked those jobs too.

722
00:41:46.934 --> 00:41:52.135
But you know how, so whenever somebody talks about burnout,

723
00:41:53.754 --> 00:42:00.261
for lack of a better description, not being real or whatever the phrase is, right?

724
00:42:00.702 --> 00:42:07.549
You hear a lot of like the hustle culture that to sort of speak to this idea of burnout not being real, if you work on things that light you up, you're never going to be tired.

725
00:42:07.950 --> 00:42:10.993
There's so much pushback against that idea.

726
00:42:11.013 --> 00:42:11.794
And...

727
00:42:12.955 --> 00:42:20.919
Now that I understand that most people aren't working in their genius, it makes sense that the pushback is because most people feel like they get burnt out all the time.

728
00:42:21.700 --> 00:42:23.080
They feel like they're always tired.

729
00:42:23.100 --> 00:42:29.303
They feel like eight hours is like the end of the world and they hate going back to work on Monday.

730
00:42:29.403 --> 00:42:32.025
And this is the reality for majority of people.

731
00:42:32.845 --> 00:42:37.287
Um, but you always have said like works is supposed to be generative.

732
00:42:37.367 --> 00:42:40.308
It's not supposed to, it's not supposed to drain you.

733
00:42:40.828 --> 00:42:54.454
And I've only felt this more recently in, in this job, in this work that I'm doing now, because I could do this all day and I could go home at the end of the day and I'll, I'll, I'll be full of energy, happy, fulfilled.

734
00:42:54.794 --> 00:42:55.935
You know, even I mentioned, um,

735
00:42:56.775 --> 00:42:59.256
on the way down here, I got like four hours of sleep last night.

736
00:42:59.756 --> 00:43:03.277
And now I'm like fully awake, fully alert, like locked in, in flow.

737
00:43:03.317 --> 00:43:03.877
And I love it.

738
00:43:04.377 --> 00:43:09.258
So I can tell that this is work, this is generative, but I don't feel like a lot of people ever experienced that.

739
00:43:10.779 --> 00:43:14.300
What's your message to those people that are listening to this saying that's, that's absolute garbage.

740
00:43:14.440 --> 00:43:19.221
If I put in a 20 hour week, you know, a 20 hour day, excuse me, I like, I'm exhausted.

741
00:43:19.261 --> 00:43:20.882
Like, I don't want to do this every single day.

742
00:43:20.922 --> 00:43:22.602
Like, this is all I've ever experienced.

743
00:43:22.622 --> 00:43:25.343
I'm 40, 45, 50, and I've never known any other kind of work.

744
00:43:25.543 --> 00:43:33.107
And if you're, well, so the first thing I would say is disabuse yourself of the fact that work is supposed to be that kind of like emotionally exhausting.

745
00:43:33.407 --> 00:43:34.327
That's just not true.

746
00:43:35.368 --> 00:43:42.091
Disabuse yourself of the fact that even if you're doing something you love, if you're not sleeping and you don't have time with your family and all that.

747
00:43:42.151 --> 00:43:44.552
No, you can, you can in theory burn out.

748
00:43:44.573 --> 00:43:46.413
There's people like that just work all the time.

749
00:43:46.473 --> 00:43:47.974
That's alcoholism and all that kind of stuff.

750
00:43:48.314 --> 00:43:49.475
But generally speaking...

751
00:43:51.092 --> 00:43:54.073
If you need to find out, you need to find out.

752
00:43:54.113 --> 00:43:57.494
That's why we priced this frigging working genius assessment so low.

753
00:43:57.614 --> 00:43:59.535
We had friends go, this is a corporate tool.

754
00:43:59.555 --> 00:44:00.955
You should charge a lot more.

755
00:44:00.975 --> 00:44:05.656
We're like, no, we want every Tom, Dick, and Harry, and Jane, and Sally to take this.

756
00:44:05.837 --> 00:44:08.337
We even have one for students in high school.

757
00:44:08.917 --> 00:44:15.159
We want everybody to figure out, I am meant to do this kind of work in order for it to be generative.

758
00:44:15.840 --> 00:44:17.640
Start by figuring out who you are.

759
00:44:18.200 --> 00:44:19.721
Right away, you'll look at your job, and you'll go...

760
00:44:20.521 --> 00:44:22.301
Oh, crap, no wonder this burns me out.

761
00:44:22.662 --> 00:44:23.862
And here's the crazy thing.

762
00:44:24.162 --> 00:44:25.482
You know who wants you to change that?

763
00:44:25.542 --> 00:44:26.162
Your manager.

764
00:44:27.062 --> 00:44:35.324
If you go to your manager and you go, and this could be any job, there's far more flexibility in how you go about doing your job than you think.

765
00:44:35.964 --> 00:44:41.686
But you go there, somebody taught it to you, and they think, well, this is the way it's supposed to be, and this is going to be that way for the rest of my life.

766
00:44:42.366 --> 00:44:47.467
Once you discover what your working geniuses are, you can do most jobs using different geniuses.

767
00:44:48.657 --> 00:44:51.765
You know, there's a nurse is not a nurse is not a nurse is not a nurse.

768
00:44:52.086 --> 00:44:54.592
A teacher is not a teacher is not a teacher is not a teacher.

769
00:44:55.234 --> 00:44:57.840
So there's going to be some teachers who are,

770
00:44:59.146 --> 00:45:06.372
like me, and they're gonna wanna come up with a new curriculum every year, and they're gonna come up with new different things and see how it's working and adjust it.

771
00:45:06.592 --> 00:45:16.640
And then there's gonna be the ET ones who get a curriculum, they know how to use it, they grade their papers on time, they turn them in, they know exactly what the, my class would be a mess and it would be very inspiring.

772
00:45:16.901 --> 00:45:21.204
Their class would be very organized and it would be a little bit predictable.

773
00:45:21.885 --> 00:45:23.206
They're both valid ways to teach.

774
00:45:24.287 --> 00:45:28.050
But most people think that a career means I have to do certain in a certain way.

775
00:45:29.433 --> 00:45:30.514
Oh, a CEO is not a CEO.

776
00:45:30.694 --> 00:45:31.916
A pastor is not a pastor.

777
00:45:31.936 --> 00:45:38.282
We had a pastor write to me and say, I feel like, I thought I was a fraud for 20 years being a pastor.

778
00:45:39.363 --> 00:45:43.727
And he said, I couldn't write a sermon or a homily to save my life.

779
00:45:44.517 --> 00:45:46.879
He goes, I would go grind on a talk.

780
00:45:47.319 --> 00:45:51.122
And his friends would go for a walk in the woods for 20 minutes and come back with four sermons.

781
00:45:52.023 --> 00:45:54.905
And he goes, how can I be a pastor if I can't come up with a good talk?

782
00:45:55.806 --> 00:45:59.468
And then he looks at his working genius and like, so you probably like counseling people one-on-one.

783
00:45:59.749 --> 00:46:00.229
Oh, I love it.

784
00:46:00.469 --> 00:46:02.691
If somebody comes in there experiencing grief, do you like that?

785
00:46:03.031 --> 00:46:04.012
Oh, yeah, I totally do.

786
00:46:04.212 --> 00:46:06.133
How about managing people one-on-one and inspiring them?

787
00:46:06.374 --> 00:46:06.714
Oh, yeah.

788
00:46:07.014 --> 00:46:08.996
You know that guy that writes those great sermons?

789
00:46:09.476 --> 00:46:10.517
He doesn't like doing that.

790
00:46:12.093 --> 00:46:19.060
And so we have this thing where we're like, well, if I can't do all of these things, I must be an imposter.

791
00:46:19.661 --> 00:46:22.964
It's like, no, no two people do the same job the same way.

792
00:46:22.984 --> 00:46:34.936
And frankly, at the very, very fundamental level of this, Scott, the purpose of working genius is to alleviate unnecessary, unproductive guilt and shame in our lives.

793
00:46:36.615 --> 00:46:39.519
Nobody's meant to experience guilt and shame because they're not great at everything.

794
00:46:40.340 --> 00:46:45.667
And so many people go home at night thinking, another day when I struggled to do that.

795
00:46:45.707 --> 00:46:47.389
Yeah, you shouldn't be doing that in the first place.

796
00:46:47.449 --> 00:46:48.250
Do it in a different way.

797
00:46:48.510 --> 00:46:49.932
Figure out a different way to do that job.

798
00:46:52.630 --> 00:46:53.390
I get very excited.

799
00:46:53.450 --> 00:46:54.571
I'm all over the place.

800
00:46:54.711 --> 00:46:55.391
No, you're not.

801
00:46:56.092 --> 00:47:03.175
I'm just, I'm trying to understand why there's some, like, I'm trying to understand where all these fundamental beliefs come from.

802
00:47:04.276 --> 00:47:08.738
Like, why do we even feel guilt and shame that we're not doing something the right way when there's so many other ways to do it?

803
00:47:09.519 --> 00:47:11.320
I think it comes from a number of things.

804
00:47:11.380 --> 00:47:12.340
And you mentioned one before.

805
00:47:12.360 --> 00:47:17.563
We grow up and with our parents with the best of intentions, they worry about us.

806
00:47:18.323 --> 00:47:23.005
And in their worry for us, they try to get us to do things that in their mind will make things better for us.

807
00:47:23.445 --> 00:47:24.786
And it's not necessarily true.

808
00:47:24.906 --> 00:47:25.606
I look at it like this.

809
00:47:25.646 --> 00:47:26.726
I have two kids, let's say.

810
00:47:27.267 --> 00:47:29.288
And one's creative and one's really organized.

811
00:47:30.788 --> 00:47:33.889
What I ought to do is say, hey, Mr. Creativesome, that's really great.

812
00:47:33.909 --> 00:47:34.490
You're creative.

813
00:47:35.350 --> 00:47:38.291
Later in life, you're going to have to get a little bit more organized just to get by.

814
00:47:38.651 --> 00:47:40.032
But that's not who you're made to be.

815
00:47:40.512 --> 00:47:42.293
And so keep working on being creative.

816
00:47:42.613 --> 00:47:45.354
And on the organized one, I'm like, hey, man, you're really organized.

817
00:47:45.394 --> 00:47:46.835
That's going to serve you really well in life.

818
00:47:46.855 --> 00:47:47.355
Yeah.

819
00:47:47.710 --> 00:47:51.032
Be nice if you did a few creative endeavors, probably for yourself, but don't worry about that.

820
00:47:51.352 --> 00:47:52.612
You double down on who you are.

821
00:47:52.913 --> 00:47:53.713
We do the opposite.

822
00:47:54.673 --> 00:47:58.115
We go, hey, creative son, you should be organized like your brother.

823
00:47:58.775 --> 00:48:01.357
Hey, organized son, you should be creative like your brother.

824
00:48:01.757 --> 00:48:04.138
And both of them feel like, oh, no, I'm not enough.

825
00:48:06.098 --> 00:48:07.479
There's something wrong with me.

826
00:48:07.539 --> 00:48:08.700
Why do we do that to the kids?

827
00:48:08.920 --> 00:48:09.440
You know why?

828
00:48:09.480 --> 00:48:12.722
Because we're afraid of them suffering later in life.

829
00:48:13.462 --> 00:48:22.808
And we think that by getting them to be who they're not, we're going to protect them from catastrophe when they don't do their taxes for a disorganized one.

830
00:48:23.108 --> 00:48:27.651
Or this one over here when he can't paint a bedroom because he doesn't know how to, you know.

831
00:48:27.811 --> 00:48:31.273
It's out of well-intentioned worry that

832
00:48:32.902 --> 00:48:35.663
And for me, what I've learned is God loves them more than me.

833
00:48:36.923 --> 00:48:37.663
They're going to be fine.

834
00:48:38.703 --> 00:48:40.484
Yeah, he might turn his taxes in late.

835
00:48:40.684 --> 00:48:41.824
He might have to learn that lesson.

836
00:48:42.364 --> 00:48:47.206
Okay, this one might totally whiff on his creative writing class in college.

837
00:48:48.646 --> 00:48:55.688
But we're totally so worried about them suffering that we actually create more suffering by trying to prevent it.

838
00:48:55.768 --> 00:49:01.229
And if you think I'm saying that from a position of that I did all the right way, I didn't.

839
00:49:02.500 --> 00:49:06.902
I wanted the best for all my kids, but I just didn't understand what was really best for them.

840
00:49:07.803 --> 00:49:08.763
So we get stressed out.

841
00:49:08.783 --> 00:49:13.245
We try and be protective of the kids, and then we end up hurting them in the process.

842
00:49:13.405 --> 00:49:13.685
Yeah.

843
00:49:14.726 --> 00:49:18.187
And if there's people listening to this going, oh, crap, I did that.

844
00:49:18.628 --> 00:49:19.388
Don't beat yourself up.

845
00:49:20.618 --> 00:49:26.482
You can recover from that and they can too, but it's good to go to them and go, you know, when I did that, I thought I was helping you.

846
00:49:27.042 --> 00:49:29.144
Now I realize I should have encouraged you.

847
00:49:29.164 --> 00:49:29.984
Yeah.

848
00:49:30.685 --> 00:49:32.746
Lean into your, lean into the things that they're already good at.

849
00:49:33.026 --> 00:49:38.350
And let me tell you, there's nothing like even an adult child having their parents say, hey, I'm really sorry.

850
00:49:38.370 --> 00:49:40.091
I just realized I did something wrong.

851
00:49:40.751 --> 00:49:43.313
It's like, hey, that frees me up to call it out.

852
00:49:45.110 --> 00:49:46.552
You've worked with many people on this.

853
00:49:46.572 --> 00:49:55.580
Do you believe that most people intuitively, like say they didn't have their parents telling them what's right and wrong in schools and work telling them what's wrong?

854
00:49:55.600 --> 00:49:59.644
Do you feel like most people would know their genius if they just took a step back?

855
00:50:00.185 --> 00:50:02.887
Or is it like when you're an adult, it's too cloudy now?

856
00:50:02.927 --> 00:50:04.709
But as a kid, would you have known your genius?

857
00:50:04.729 --> 00:50:05.630
No.

858
00:50:05.670 --> 00:50:05.830
No.

859
00:50:06.595 --> 00:50:08.297
It's difficult to figure out.

860
00:50:08.557 --> 00:50:09.117
That's a good question.

861
00:50:09.137 --> 00:50:13.221
If somebody had asked me, I suppose if somebody had said and give me good examples of it.

862
00:50:13.441 --> 00:50:13.662
Yeah.

863
00:50:13.742 --> 00:50:17.965
Like, OK, so when I was seven years old, I watched the Waltons on TV.

864
00:50:17.985 --> 00:50:19.847
It was a show, really old show on TV.

865
00:50:19.867 --> 00:50:23.751
And the main character was was a writer and he would write in his journal every night.

866
00:50:24.732 --> 00:50:28.515
And I don't know why, but I would from that time, I was like, that's cool.

867
00:50:28.635 --> 00:50:30.297
He's writing his thoughts.

868
00:50:31.668 --> 00:50:34.270
So maybe I would have been able to go, okay, I think I like that.

869
00:50:34.290 --> 00:50:35.651
I think that's like creative.

870
00:50:37.393 --> 00:50:41.617
But I didn't even know that people, you know, in my family, we hadn't gone to college.

871
00:50:41.897 --> 00:50:42.698
We were pretty poor.

872
00:50:43.318 --> 00:50:46.461
And I was going to get a job where I could make money to pay the bills.

873
00:50:47.001 --> 00:50:51.185
So I didn't really have an access to like that there were actually jobs out there that could do that.

874
00:50:51.766 --> 00:50:51.986
Yeah.

875
00:50:52.487 --> 00:51:00.894
So you have to understand, like, yes, you have some idea of what lights you up as a kid, but you have to understand how those would actually translate into work career.

876
00:51:01.054 --> 00:51:01.194
Yes.

877
00:51:01.214 --> 00:51:01.434
Yeah.

878
00:51:02.135 --> 00:51:02.495
Yeah.

879
00:51:03.536 --> 00:51:14.945
And it's interesting because when I went to college and I did, I followed my dad's advice and I studied very practical things, but I took a screenwriting class and a journalism class my senior year in college, electives.

880
00:51:16.246 --> 00:51:16.847
Most fun I ever.

881
00:51:17.838 --> 00:51:20.120
I took a group dynamics class too.

882
00:51:20.840 --> 00:51:23.643
All the classes that were my electives were my favorite classes.

883
00:51:24.944 --> 00:51:26.165
My majors sucked.

884
00:51:26.885 --> 00:51:30.848
But this is a whole other point about how, like, I think a lot of the system is broken.

885
00:51:31.149 --> 00:51:31.309
Oh!

886
00:51:32.109 --> 00:51:33.871
Like, a lot of the system is broken.

887
00:51:33.891 --> 00:51:44.319
Like, whether or not, you know, you apply to your major and you're taking all these mandatory classes, and is it really setting you up for success in life?

888
00:51:45.400 --> 00:51:47.701
No, I mean, my undergrad was in pre-law.

889
00:51:48.301 --> 00:51:51.961
I haven't done anything with pre-law or law or otherwise.

890
00:51:52.361 --> 00:52:02.804
And when you get into a company, like what's, I would assume that when you, we can talk about how to hire people once you know who they are and what their genius is.

891
00:52:02.884 --> 00:52:12.105
But I would assume that without somebody knowing that, you're taking all these different geniuses and you're just sort of like putting like square peg into round hole again and again and again and again.

892
00:52:12.125 --> 00:52:13.906
And you're wondering why these people aren't working out.

893
00:52:13.946 --> 00:52:14.766
So like, I don't think,

894
00:52:15.126 --> 00:52:26.397
The system, meaning the system, like traditional ways that you hire and people that like, you know, work in your company, the system being how we educate kids.

895
00:52:26.497 --> 00:52:28.679
I don't think that the system is set up for success at all.

896
00:52:29.039 --> 00:52:29.640
Oh, it's so broken.

897
00:52:29.940 --> 00:52:30.721
Here's a great story.

898
00:52:31.021 --> 00:52:33.023
I think that kind of gets to this, but in adults.

899
00:52:34.325 --> 00:52:37.327
So I did this for a company, a big company.

900
00:52:38.487 --> 00:52:41.609
multi $10 billion company technology firm.

901
00:52:41.649 --> 00:52:46.411
They hadn't, they had not come out with a new piece of technology in years, but they were really good at using old stuff and selling it.

902
00:52:46.891 --> 00:52:47.652
They were frustrated.

903
00:52:47.972 --> 00:52:48.892
We did the working genius.

904
00:52:49.293 --> 00:52:54.675
Nobody on the executive team had invention software company, except one guy.

905
00:52:55.135 --> 00:52:55.936
And he was the lawyer.

906
00:52:57.317 --> 00:52:58.457
So he went to law school.

907
00:52:58.577 --> 00:52:59.258
That's so funny.

908
00:52:59.418 --> 00:53:01.739
And was their chief legal counsel.

909
00:53:02.918 --> 00:53:06.661
And the chief technology officer didn't have invention.

910
00:53:07.602 --> 00:53:11.726
The head of the IT, the product development, marketing, nobody had invention.

911
00:53:11.766 --> 00:53:14.028
Nobody liked to think about new ways of doing things.

912
00:53:14.048 --> 00:53:16.310
That's technically what they're supposed to be doing.

913
00:53:16.370 --> 00:53:18.092
Like, that's what the job is supposed to be doing.

914
00:53:18.312 --> 00:53:20.194
And so they were sitting there going, what are we going to do?

915
00:53:20.714 --> 00:53:21.995
And somebody finally said...

916
00:53:22.940 --> 00:53:24.882
Hey, how about if we put you into the lawyer?

917
00:53:24.902 --> 00:53:27.966
How about if we put you in charge of new technology acquisition?

918
00:53:28.606 --> 00:53:30.068
And he was like, I'm the lawyer.

919
00:53:30.308 --> 00:53:32.090
And they're like, I know, but you have invention.

920
00:53:32.130 --> 00:53:34.212
See, job descriptions and labels.

921
00:53:34.893 --> 00:53:37.836
Once you know you're working genius, it kind of doesn't matter anymore.

922
00:53:38.517 --> 00:53:43.683
You should put everybody on the table and go, how should we get this work done based on what you're gifted at?

923
00:53:44.600 --> 00:53:50.403
And so what we finally figured out is that job descriptions are not near as important as your geniuses.

924
00:53:50.863 --> 00:53:53.185
So this team rearranged their organization.

925
00:53:53.565 --> 00:53:55.506
Two years later, I went back and looked at their website.

926
00:53:56.166 --> 00:53:57.607
He was no longer the chief legal counsel.

927
00:53:57.627 --> 00:53:58.227
I thought he left.

928
00:53:58.287 --> 00:53:59.888
He was full time in technology.

929
00:54:00.789 --> 00:54:03.990
So here's a guy who studied law, probably because his grandfather did.

930
00:54:04.651 --> 00:54:07.412
And or he was good at taking the LSATs or who the hell knows why.

931
00:54:08.353 --> 00:54:12.255
And he when they asked, he's like, I would love to work on like coming up with new ideas.

932
00:54:13.172 --> 00:54:21.354
So I think what we need to do is kind of erase our educational whiteboard and all of our expectations and go, who did God make me to be?

933
00:54:22.714 --> 00:54:29.515
And granted, there's probably lawyers that can work in a creative way and there's nurses that can work in it, you know, but go back and figure this out right now.

934
00:54:29.636 --> 00:54:40.778
I want everyone to just stop what they're doing and take this 12-minute assessment, look at the results and just say, okay, what does this explain about your failures, your successes, your miseries and your joys?

935
00:54:41.576 --> 00:54:43.618
NetSuite Next is a success story partner.

936
00:54:43.998 --> 00:54:51.744
So they say that every day your business is late to using AI, you fall two days behind, and the competition is only moving faster.

937
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938
00:54:53.165 --> 00:54:55.187
Well, fortunately, there is NetSuite Next.

939
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940
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941
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942
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943
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944
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945
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You'll have AI agents work alongside you to solve problems and handle routine work.

946
00:55:27.890 --> 00:55:34.995
And anytime you have a question about anything in your business, you just ask like you're having a conversation with a colleague and NetSuite Next will give you an answer.

947
00:55:35.475 --> 00:55:41.476
NetSuite is customized for a wide range of industries, so it supports the way that your business truly works.

948
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Whether your company earns millions or hundreds of millions, it's time for NetSuite Next, where your business meets AI.

949
00:55:48.598 --> 00:55:50.579
If I needed a solution like this, it's what I'd use.

950
00:55:50.939 --> 00:55:54.520
For the first time ever, you can try NetSuite Next for free.

951
00:55:54.840 --> 00:56:00.401
If your revenues are at least in these seven figures, go to netsuite.ai.scottclary.

952
00:56:00.821 --> 00:56:02.082
It's built for every industry.

953
00:56:02.502 --> 00:56:03.823
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954
00:56:04.283 --> 00:56:06.645
netsuite.ai slash Scott Clary.

955
00:56:06.965 --> 00:56:08.867
My fitness pal is a success story partner.

956
00:56:09.267 --> 00:56:20.595
On this show, I speak to tons of high performers and the people that sustain that high performance, not just sprint and crash and burn, but they actually sustain, they all treat nutrition like a system, not an afterthought.

957
00:56:20.875 --> 00:56:26.500
The same way they treat revenue or hiring or product, it is key to their business.

958
00:56:26.840 --> 00:56:27.701
They pay attention.

959
00:56:27.981 --> 00:56:29.082
They look at the data.

960
00:56:29.463 --> 00:56:30.704
And that really stuck with me.

961
00:56:30.764 --> 00:56:34.848
And it's how I started thinking about my own health and wellness and what I put into my own body.

962
00:56:35.168 --> 00:56:38.651
Not in like a restrictive diet way, but in a data way.

963
00:56:38.851 --> 00:56:43.715
See, most people take a look at daily calorie total and they think they have the full picture.

964
00:56:43.896 --> 00:56:45.177
That's just one number.

965
00:56:45.477 --> 00:56:48.778
The MyFitnessPal app, Premium, it shows me macros.

966
00:56:48.998 --> 00:56:52.860
That means proteins, carbs, fats, broken down by meal.

967
00:56:53.140 --> 00:56:56.761
So I can see, am I getting enough protein at breakfast versus dinner?

968
00:56:57.222 --> 00:57:05.665
And it also shows me how my food is distributed across the day because of course, I can take a look at my total calorie number, but to see everything broken down by meal,

969
00:57:06.245 --> 00:57:11.810
Those are two completely different things, even if your daily total looks fine and you're gonna feel the difference.

970
00:57:12.070 --> 00:57:19.096
If you eat proper nutrition across your entire day and you track it, your energy is gonna allow you to sustain that high performance.

971
00:57:19.216 --> 00:57:22.839
Also, the food analysis picks up trends over the week that I'd miss just going by feel.

972
00:57:23.139 --> 00:57:27.523
See, this information makes good food choices automatic.

973
00:57:27.783 --> 00:57:29.164
See, food is a foundation, right?

974
00:57:29.364 --> 00:57:32.907
Energy, focus, performance, recovery, it all starts with food.

975
00:57:33.928 --> 00:57:42.577
Do yourself a favor, go visit podcast.myfitnesspal.com and use code SCOTT, all uppercase letters, for 15% off MyFitnessPal premium.

976
00:57:42.857 --> 00:57:46.481
That's podcast.myfitnesspal.com, code SCOTT.

977
00:57:46.761 --> 00:57:48.082
Noom is a success story partner.

978
00:57:48.322 --> 00:57:50.645
Now here's the thing that nobody tells you about losing weight.

979
00:57:51.065 --> 00:57:52.526
Losing it isn't the hard part.

980
00:57:52.886 --> 00:57:53.707
Keeping it off is.

981
00:57:54.027 --> 00:58:01.211
Almost anyone can white knuckle a few good months of diet and exercise, but then work gets crazy and routines break and it all comes right back.

982
00:58:01.351 --> 00:58:04.393
I have built my entire career and my life around one idea.

983
00:58:04.874 --> 00:58:08.276
Systems beat motivation and weight loss is no different.

984
00:58:08.536 --> 00:58:13.399
You need something that holds up when life doesn't cooperate and that's exactly what Noom is built for.

985
00:58:13.799 --> 00:58:16.942
Noom is a health and wellness app that combines GLP one medication.

986
00:58:17.222 --> 00:58:22.806
That's the weight loss medication that everyone's talking about with behavioral support to the medication kickstarts the weight loss.

987
00:58:23.167 --> 00:58:30.072
And then the psychology side, the daily lessons, the food logging, the real coaching that builds the habits that make it stick.

988
00:58:30.453 --> 00:58:35.957
Even if you stop the medication and it works, people lose 37% more weight with Noom than with GLP one alone.

989
00:58:36.338 --> 00:58:38.159
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990
00:58:38.399 --> 00:58:39.260
And that's the difference.

991
00:58:39.420 --> 00:58:41.701
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992
00:58:41.861 --> 00:58:43.901
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993
00:58:43.941 --> 00:58:46.742
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994
00:58:47.022 --> 00:58:49.823
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995
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996
00:58:51.524 --> 00:58:56.786
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997
00:58:57.206 --> 00:58:58.646
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998
00:58:59.006 --> 00:59:00.927
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999
00:59:01.067 --> 00:59:11.214
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1000
00:59:11.734 --> 00:59:15.517
Higher app engagement was associated with greater weight loss at 16 weeks.

1001
00:59:16.217 --> 00:59:25.043
What does a, say there's a 50-year-old listening to this and they take this assessment and they realize that they've been working in the wrong way their whole life.

1002
00:59:26.144 --> 00:59:27.425
What's your message to that person?

1003
00:59:28.175 --> 00:59:33.540
I'd say, first of all, share it with your spouse and your close friends because they will have insights into it.

1004
00:59:34.301 --> 00:59:39.545
Go sit down with your manager or your colleagues at work and go, hey, what do you think of this?

1005
00:59:39.946 --> 00:59:42.108
My dad was an ET.

1006
00:59:43.449 --> 00:59:44.730
So he was the loyal finisher.

1007
00:59:45.631 --> 00:59:47.753
Like he'd always volunteer for things and get things done.

1008
00:59:48.313 --> 00:59:52.697
When he retired, so I'll even go into retirement, he didn't know what to do with himself.

1009
00:59:53.740 --> 00:59:54.802
And you know what he should have done?

1010
00:59:54.822 --> 00:59:57.285
He's done anything that gave him responsibility.

1011
00:59:57.526 --> 00:59:59.008
He was a responsible guy.

1012
00:59:59.589 --> 01:00:01.692
He could have gone and run a... a...

1013
01:00:04.807 --> 01:00:11.651
sporting goods store and been really happy because he liked organizing things, helping people, finishing things.

1014
01:00:12.332 --> 01:00:15.914
And so we should do that when we're 30, when we're 50, when we're 70.

1015
01:00:15.974 --> 01:00:16.934
Anytime.

1016
01:00:17.334 --> 01:00:17.795
Anytime.

1017
01:00:18.715 --> 01:00:20.256
And people talk about retiring now.

1018
01:00:20.296 --> 01:00:21.297
You know what I think retiring is?

1019
01:00:21.357 --> 01:00:25.939
Is look at your working genius and go do that 90% of the time.

1020
01:00:26.960 --> 01:00:28.501
And if you get paid for it, that's great.

1021
01:00:28.681 --> 01:00:32.383
But if you're retired and you don't need to get paid, just go do the kind of work that you love.

1022
01:00:33.218 --> 01:00:34.078
And it might not be golfing.

1023
01:00:35.939 --> 01:00:36.139
No.

1024
01:00:36.399 --> 01:00:36.839
Mine isn't.

1025
01:00:37.179 --> 01:00:46.162
It's just like stop following what you think, society, what your friends, what everybody says you should do and figure out life yourself.

1026
01:00:46.322 --> 01:00:46.522
Yeah.

1027
01:00:47.223 --> 01:00:48.283
I thought this was interesting.

1028
01:00:48.363 --> 01:00:55.986
So when I go back into your story, you always tell the story of you being a very lazy, like a lazy kid, like a lazy child.

1029
01:00:56.666 --> 01:00:59.407
Why is that part of, why is that such an important idea?

1030
01:00:59.727 --> 01:00:59.987
Okay.

1031
01:01:01.007 --> 01:01:02.748
So here's the thing you have to understand about me.

1032
01:01:04.362 --> 01:01:05.564
I wanted to be a lazy child.

1033
01:01:05.604 --> 01:01:06.165
And not lazy.

1034
01:01:06.365 --> 01:01:07.367
I wanted to be creative.

1035
01:01:08.008 --> 01:01:09.110
And I wanted to follow my gut.

1036
01:01:11.053 --> 01:01:11.894
I worked my ass off.

1037
01:01:12.655 --> 01:01:12.815
I know.

1038
01:01:12.835 --> 01:01:13.396
Against the grain.

1039
01:01:13.737 --> 01:01:14.017
I know.

1040
01:01:14.518 --> 01:01:15.219
I didn't want to.

1041
01:01:15.720 --> 01:01:16.521
But you know why I did?

1042
01:01:16.702 --> 01:01:18.404
Because I had to please everyone.

1043
01:01:19.330 --> 01:01:21.872
And so I got straight A's in school.

1044
01:01:21.972 --> 01:01:26.295
I did everything every coach told me to do, my parents, my teachers, my bosses.

1045
01:01:27.056 --> 01:01:28.477
I was my professors.

1046
01:01:28.977 --> 01:01:32.019
I had to be perfect because my parents were more like that.

1047
01:01:32.199 --> 01:01:35.222
And they were like, hey, success in life is that.

1048
01:01:35.982 --> 01:01:38.244
They didn't say to me, hey, you know, you're creative.

1049
01:01:38.264 --> 01:01:39.084
You should try these things.

1050
01:01:39.104 --> 01:01:42.407
They're like, no, study accounting, get straight A's, get a scholarship.

1051
01:01:42.427 --> 01:01:43.207
We don't have a lot of money.

1052
01:01:43.247 --> 01:01:46.550
Go to college, get a job and provide for your family and have benefits.

1053
01:01:46.570 --> 01:01:46.810
Right.

1054
01:01:47.542 --> 01:01:54.067
And I lived that way intently for into my 25 years.

1055
01:01:54.847 --> 01:01:58.170
I was so screwed up because I was good at things I hated.

1056
01:01:59.813 --> 01:02:00.734
And so what did that mean?

1057
01:02:00.854 --> 01:02:02.916
People thought, well, you can do that.

1058
01:02:03.016 --> 01:02:03.977
You can keep doing that.

1059
01:02:04.037 --> 01:02:06.559
And I was like, but I don't want to do that anymore.

1060
01:02:06.579 --> 01:02:09.361
But my whole identity was tied up in being the responsible one.

1061
01:02:10.242 --> 01:02:15.086
So I was actually better at things I hated than many people who had them as geniuses.

1062
01:02:16.147 --> 01:02:16.928
That's not good.

1063
01:02:17.829 --> 01:02:19.790
You've said that you were earning love through compliance.

1064
01:02:20.030 --> 01:02:20.231
Yeah.

1065
01:02:21.292 --> 01:02:27.377
And I think that, you know, if we look at all the things we've spoken about today, whether or not you're,

1066
01:02:29.219 --> 01:02:41.043
Maybe at work it's not earning love, even though at some level I think it is, but earning respect through compliance or as a child earning love through compliance, it creates a lot of resentment.

1067
01:02:41.244 --> 01:02:41.564
Yeah.

1068
01:02:42.844 --> 01:02:43.144
Yes.

1069
01:02:44.445 --> 01:02:49.206
What was the point when you figured out that this was like the engine that was running your life?

1070
01:02:50.567 --> 01:02:51.207
It was in my 50s.

1071
01:02:52.548 --> 01:02:53.148
It took a while.

1072
01:02:53.507 --> 01:02:53.747
Yeah.

1073
01:02:54.228 --> 01:02:58.231
Well, and because I finally found a job where I like I was writing and doing all these things.

1074
01:02:58.551 --> 01:03:01.813
But what I didn't realize is why I had been doing all the other things.

1075
01:03:02.674 --> 01:03:08.959
So it wasn't until I got older that I realized, oh, well, that's why I did all those things because I was looking for approval.

1076
01:03:09.679 --> 01:03:14.222
For somebody that would like say, well, that's just what a high achiever looks like.

1077
01:03:14.743 --> 01:03:15.003
Yeah.

1078
01:03:15.043 --> 01:03:16.104
Beware high achievers.

1079
01:03:16.184 --> 01:03:17.004
Right.

1080
01:03:17.105 --> 01:03:23.930
So I think that there's a big difference between being fear driven and just being a high achiever.

1081
01:03:25.030 --> 01:03:27.672
But how does somebody actually understand the difference between the two?

1082
01:03:28.393 --> 01:03:30.174
You know, it comes down to peace and joy.

1083
01:03:31.735 --> 01:03:34.878
And it's like, do you have peace or?

1084
01:03:35.917 --> 01:03:40.601
If you're achieving and you're doing something that gives you peace and joy, then good on you.

1085
01:03:41.461 --> 01:03:52.729
If you're achieving and you're afraid that you're going to fail at the next thing and you think that, oh, no, I have to continue to demonstrate to get all this energy to get myself to do it.

1086
01:03:54.130 --> 01:03:58.814
A natural, a positive high achiever should be somebody who's not stressed out all the time.

1087
01:04:00.818 --> 01:04:07.812
And if you're stressed and successful, it probably means you're doing stuff that you're not meant to do or you're doing it for the wrong reasons.

1088
01:04:09.147 --> 01:04:09.607
Interesting.

1089
01:04:09.627 --> 01:04:10.868
Does that make sense?

1090
01:04:11.008 --> 01:04:11.488
No, it does.

1091
01:04:11.569 --> 01:04:13.089
Now I'm thinking because I'm always stressed.

1092
01:04:13.690 --> 01:04:13.890
Yeah.

1093
01:04:13.930 --> 01:04:14.730
I'm always stressed.

1094
01:04:15.111 --> 01:04:15.791
But how do you know?

1095
01:04:15.831 --> 01:04:17.492
We learned growing up that that was good.

1096
01:04:17.632 --> 01:04:17.812
Yeah.

1097
01:04:17.872 --> 01:04:18.913
It's called hypervigilance.

1098
01:04:19.954 --> 01:04:21.555
It's like, how do you know if it's the right reason?

1099
01:04:21.575 --> 01:04:22.575
Like, what's the right reason?

1100
01:04:22.595 --> 01:04:22.976
What's the right?

1101
01:04:22.996 --> 01:04:23.736
Like, that's what I mean.

1102
01:04:23.776 --> 01:04:27.178
So now I'm doing an analysis on myself in real time.

1103
01:04:27.198 --> 01:04:29.920
I'm trying to think about like, what's the reason why I'm working so hard?

1104
01:04:29.940 --> 01:04:31.581
And I don't have an easy answer.

1105
01:04:31.601 --> 01:04:34.903
It's probably a therapy session where it is in all seriousness.

1106
01:04:34.923 --> 01:04:35.003
Yes.

1107
01:04:35.003 --> 01:04:37.665
And it's not weird and soft and touchy-feely.

1108
01:04:37.785 --> 01:04:47.594
It's just that deep down inside when you were young, you had a notion of success and wanting to be successful, and the wiring in it was a little off.

1109
01:04:48.734 --> 01:04:51.697
And what you need to do is go rewire that.

1110
01:04:51.977 --> 01:04:53.358
And it's absolutely doable.

1111
01:04:53.619 --> 01:04:54.980
It's a very practical thing.

1112
01:04:55.340 --> 01:05:00.604
There's a kind of therapy where you just go back and people will go like, so tell me about when you were young and when you were thinking about this.

1113
01:05:01.465 --> 01:05:05.234
And then you recall those things and you talk through them and you go, oh yeah, that's what it was.

1114
01:05:05.595 --> 01:05:09.223
And just by bringing it up, you're rewiring.

1115
01:05:10.007 --> 01:05:16.450
One thing that I've heard you say, no, it's, listen, everything in life is not overly complex.

1116
01:05:16.470 --> 01:05:17.450
It's just hard work, right?

1117
01:05:17.470 --> 01:05:18.071
Exactly.

1118
01:05:18.351 --> 01:05:18.771
That's it.

1119
01:05:19.011 --> 01:05:29.055
Like doing, whether or not it's figuring out which work you should be working on or figuring out why you're screwed up from stuff that happened in your life as a kid or whatever.

1120
01:05:30.116 --> 01:05:32.957
It's just uncomfortable hard work, but it's not overly complicated.

1121
01:05:33.337 --> 01:05:34.638
Life is simple and difficult.

1122
01:05:35.278 --> 01:05:36.879
We want it to be complicated and easy.

1123
01:05:37.846 --> 01:05:42.448
We're looking for some like magic formula that doesn't have any sweat behind it.

1124
01:05:42.908 --> 01:05:43.888
It's like, nope.

1125
01:05:44.389 --> 01:05:49.371
Marriage, parenting, success in business are all about doing.

1126
01:05:50.751 --> 01:05:54.032
It's remembering to stick to the basics.

1127
01:05:54.653 --> 01:05:57.694
When I say it's hard, it's not like grindy hard.

1128
01:05:58.134 --> 01:06:02.296
It just requires constant reminders of staying with what works.

1129
01:06:02.316 --> 01:06:02.716
Yeah.

1130
01:06:03.657 --> 01:06:12.684
One of my favorite ideas is there's a difference between like hard work for the sake of hard work and doing things that are hard.

1131
01:06:12.824 --> 01:06:13.105
Oh, yeah.

1132
01:06:13.885 --> 01:06:14.186
Yes.

1133
01:06:14.266 --> 01:06:16.968
And I've all I have repeatedly screwed that up.

1134
01:06:17.168 --> 01:06:17.509
Wow.

1135
01:06:17.709 --> 01:06:18.549
That's profound.

1136
01:06:19.831 --> 01:06:26.817
When you are and that that may be very I was just talking to a guy that wrote a book about this and he says every year you should go out and do something ridiculously hard.

1137
01:06:27.733 --> 01:06:31.676
And if we do it because we're just saying, hey, that's hard.

1138
01:06:31.856 --> 01:06:35.859
And in a short burst of energy, I'm going to do something hard just to test myself.

1139
01:06:36.359 --> 01:06:37.160
That could be healthy.

1140
01:06:37.560 --> 01:06:39.262
But if you can get addicted to that.

1141
01:06:39.282 --> 01:06:39.842
Yes, you can.

1142
01:06:40.482 --> 01:06:45.186
And boy, the difference between those is the difference between misery and freedom.

1143
01:06:45.706 --> 01:06:48.068
Like a good life and a very painful life.

1144
01:06:49.629 --> 01:06:54.693
I did grow up thinking that life was supposed to be hard and I was supposed to be always vigilant.

1145
01:06:54.713 --> 01:06:54.813
Yeah.

1146
01:06:56.490 --> 01:06:57.991
Like, what could go wrong?

1147
01:06:59.371 --> 01:07:00.932
Constantly preparing for what could go wrong.

1148
01:07:00.952 --> 01:07:01.772
I lived in the future.

1149
01:07:02.833 --> 01:07:04.254
You know, like, oh, but what about this?

1150
01:07:04.294 --> 01:07:04.774
What about that?

1151
01:07:04.794 --> 01:07:12.838
And it's like, like in the Bible says, there's plenty to worry about in the, and there's plenty of stuff from the past and plenty of stuff in the future, but you're supposed to be right here right now.

1152
01:07:12.858 --> 01:07:13.478
What is it, right?

1153
01:07:13.518 --> 01:07:15.059
Like anxiety is living in the future.

1154
01:07:15.079 --> 01:07:16.279
Depression is living in the past.

1155
01:07:16.379 --> 01:07:17.040
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1156
01:07:17.060 --> 01:07:17.580
Sounds right.

1157
01:07:18.220 --> 01:07:25.485
By the way, this is a total aside, but it's so interesting how all the lessons that we actually have to listen to, they're not new.

1158
01:07:25.685 --> 01:07:36.993
Like everything we're talking about on this podcast, whether or not you go back to the Bible or you go back to Stoics, there's so many sources of wisdom that lay this all out.

1159
01:07:37.254 --> 01:07:37.454
Yeah.

1160
01:07:37.834 --> 01:07:39.115
But we forget.

1161
01:07:39.455 --> 01:07:39.815
It's not true.

1162
01:07:40.176 --> 01:07:42.957
Samuel Johnson was, I think, an 18th century writer.

1163
01:07:43.337 --> 01:07:46.219
And he said people need to be reminded more than they need to be instructed.

1164
01:07:46.719 --> 01:07:48.380
But then you go and you see all these PhDs.

1165
01:07:48.440 --> 01:07:49.741
Everybody's trying to do all this stuff.

1166
01:07:50.001 --> 01:07:53.203
And it's like, hey, but you're not even doing, I call it the low hanging fruit.

1167
01:07:53.603 --> 01:07:55.464
Everybody's like, I'm going to go up there and get that fruit right there.

1168
01:07:55.484 --> 01:07:57.245
And I'm like, just bump into the tree.

1169
01:07:57.606 --> 01:07:59.547
The fruit's going to fall right into your basket.

1170
01:07:59.627 --> 01:08:00.227
No, no, no.

1171
01:08:00.247 --> 01:08:01.628
It must be that fruit way up there.

1172
01:08:02.208 --> 01:08:08.212
And people go through life like that, searching for these really complex things when simplicity is what we need.

1173
01:08:09.453 --> 01:08:20.939
One of the ideas that you've spoken about that really, really stuck with me, you've said that success was just relief that you didn't fail.

1174
01:08:21.459 --> 01:08:21.739
Yeah.

1175
01:08:23.100 --> 01:08:23.840
When did that change?

1176
01:08:25.221 --> 01:08:29.423
That's what I started working on about 10 years ago.

1177
01:08:29.624 --> 01:08:31.945
So what is your definition of success today?

1178
01:08:32.750 --> 01:08:35.171
I think I've learned that success is about being in the moment.

1179
01:08:35.351 --> 01:08:41.653
I know that sounds like a euphemism or something you put on a poster, but, but it's like, I was always thinking about the future and thinking about the past, more of the future.

1180
01:08:42.154 --> 01:08:46.475
And, um, and I realized now it's like, Hey, I'm sitting here talking to you.

1181
01:08:46.495 --> 01:08:46.995
This is great.

1182
01:08:47.436 --> 01:08:48.276
I want to enjoy this.

1183
01:08:48.496 --> 01:08:50.517
And it, it's not about what's it going to produce.

1184
01:08:51.137 --> 01:08:53.438
It's like this itself is worth doing.

1185
01:08:54.238 --> 01:08:57.400
And whatever I do tonight, I want to be there and enjoy that.

1186
01:08:57.480 --> 01:08:59.061
I never enjoyed the moment.

1187
01:08:59.081 --> 01:09:00.502
I was always like, what does this lead to?

1188
01:09:00.542 --> 01:09:03.423
And what am I going to have to prevent from happening in the future?

1189
01:09:04.024 --> 01:09:07.646
So I think I'm just learning to live like this is what's here right now.

1190
01:09:07.666 --> 01:09:08.326
And this is good.

1191
01:09:08.606 --> 01:09:13.349
You know, it's interesting because when you live in the moment, the work you do in the moment is going to be much better.

1192
01:09:13.789 --> 01:09:14.229
Totally.

1193
01:09:16.411 --> 01:09:19.432
It removes any expectation, which, of course, creates like a better outcome.

1194
01:09:19.773 --> 01:09:20.273
But also...

1195
01:09:21.902 --> 01:09:24.263
Like, I think that's just like how to live like a happy, fulfilled life.

1196
01:09:25.063 --> 01:09:28.624
I think that's genuinely like, I think people are always searching for like, what does success mean?

1197
01:09:28.644 --> 01:09:29.365
What does success mean?

1198
01:09:29.925 --> 01:09:34.366
Well, they want freedom, but they don't want freedom plus anxiety or freedom plus depression.

1199
01:09:35.006 --> 01:09:36.787
It's like freedom plus peace.

1200
01:09:37.227 --> 01:09:37.647
Yes.

1201
01:09:37.907 --> 01:09:39.108
That's what people actually want.

1202
01:09:39.168 --> 01:09:48.111
You just hit the nail on the head and there's so many people pursuing freedom where they think it's like, if I have another thing in another house and another this, and it's like, and their peace is going down.

1203
01:09:50.188 --> 01:09:57.355
I met these monks recently, these guys that live in the woods in Pennsylvania, and they're like what's called discousest Carmelite monks.

1204
01:09:57.595 --> 01:10:01.298
They live the most austere lives of all religious.

1205
01:10:02.119 --> 01:10:04.821
And they live in a shack, which they call their cell.

1206
01:10:05.241 --> 01:10:06.382
And they speak very little.

1207
01:10:06.422 --> 01:10:07.183
They pray all day.

1208
01:10:07.263 --> 01:10:07.944
Then they work.

1209
01:10:08.723 --> 01:10:13.449
They have a little bit of time with one another and they go back and they eat by themselves in their shack and then they pray some more.

1210
01:10:14.310 --> 01:10:15.512
And they were full of joy.

1211
01:10:16.013 --> 01:10:17.555
And I was like, they were young.

1212
01:10:17.975 --> 01:10:18.396
One's 23.

1213
01:10:18.416 --> 01:10:22.281
And I'm like, what's?

1214
01:10:23.903 --> 01:10:25.125
And he's like, yeah, it's great.

1215
01:10:26.769 --> 01:10:27.530
And he was normal.

1216
01:10:27.770 --> 01:10:30.032
I was like, you know, you think that guy's going to be kind of odd.

1217
01:10:30.653 --> 01:10:35.698
And he was like, no, I'm doing the thing that I think is most important, and I love doing it.

1218
01:10:35.858 --> 01:10:41.304
And it's not for everyone that, but he said, I have peace knowing that I have the one thing that matters most.

1219
01:10:41.744 --> 01:10:45.168
But he has found out what matters most to him, where most people have no idea.

1220
01:10:45.188 --> 01:10:45.248
No.

1221
01:10:47.039 --> 01:10:57.762
You mentioned that you had only recently, I'd say recently as in the past 10 years, sort of come up with a new definition of success because for the first, I guess, 50 years of your life, it was a relief that you didn't fail.

1222
01:10:58.122 --> 01:11:03.023
But even at 50, you were successful by any other metric.

1223
01:11:03.383 --> 01:11:05.443
So what were you running away from at 50?

1224
01:11:06.123 --> 01:11:15.506
Well, not in an accusatory way, in a why did it take you so long to realize that you were not even close to failure anymore?

1225
01:11:17.967 --> 01:11:21.348
until that point, I thought my wounds were superpowers.

1226
01:11:22.089 --> 01:11:23.349
See, this is what happens in life.

1227
01:11:23.669 --> 01:11:24.330
We're all wounded.

1228
01:11:24.670 --> 01:11:25.410
Everybody gets wounded.

1229
01:11:26.571 --> 01:11:28.092
In little ways, big ways.

1230
01:11:28.952 --> 01:11:34.375
And sometimes you get a wound that makes you act a certain way that the world says is successful.

1231
01:11:35.535 --> 01:11:38.157
So mine was like, man, you work really hard.

1232
01:11:38.857 --> 01:11:41.739
Man, you try to be really good at everything you do.

1233
01:11:42.099 --> 01:11:45.781
Wow, you're pretty relentlessly focused on producing things.

1234
01:11:46.442 --> 01:11:49.944
And they didn't know that I was actually afraid of failing.

1235
01:11:50.544 --> 01:11:52.145
To them, it looked like success.

1236
01:11:52.565 --> 01:11:53.126
So I thought...

1237
01:11:53.861 --> 01:11:55.082
Well, I'm not going to stop.

1238
01:11:55.722 --> 01:11:59.464
The world is telling me this wound I have is actually making me successful.

1239
01:12:00.364 --> 01:12:07.828
And now if that wound had been something that was clearly bad, then that would have been a terrible thing.

1240
01:12:07.848 --> 01:12:10.750
But in this case, everybody was saying, no, what's your problem?

1241
01:12:11.810 --> 01:12:12.951
You're very successful in life.

1242
01:12:12.971 --> 01:12:13.871
You're making money.

1243
01:12:14.592 --> 01:12:18.894
And I finally got to an age where I said, no, no, the lack of peace is just not worth it.

1244
01:12:20.445 --> 01:12:21.246
So why?

1245
01:12:21.506 --> 01:12:23.107
By the grace of God, I didn't do anything terrible.

1246
01:12:23.467 --> 01:12:23.867
No, no.

1247
01:12:23.907 --> 01:12:26.249
I mean, but it just was like, wow, this is not worth it.

1248
01:12:27.770 --> 01:12:28.410
It's interesting.

1249
01:12:28.530 --> 01:12:35.815
And this, it's just, I think the teachable moment for people that feel that they should have their life figured out.

1250
01:12:35.875 --> 01:12:41.858
And I'm going to use you as an example and you'll appreciate this, but your whole career was helping people understand themselves.

1251
01:12:43.059 --> 01:12:46.161
And you still, to a degree, had a hard time understanding yourself.

1252
01:12:46.982 --> 01:12:49.203
And I think that just, I think that that's just,

1253
01:12:51.233 --> 01:12:53.136
what's the best way of saying it?

1254
01:12:53.376 --> 01:12:56.821
It's just, um, I'm blanking on the word.

1255
01:12:56.901 --> 01:12:58.824
It's kind of, it's ironic.

1256
01:12:58.864 --> 01:12:59.285
Isn't there?

1257
01:12:59.705 --> 01:13:04.372
It's ironic, but it's also like from the perspective of somebody who is struggling with

1258
01:13:06.582 --> 01:13:10.965
I want them to have some grace with where they're at in their journey.

1259
01:13:11.005 --> 01:13:11.125
Yeah.

1260
01:13:11.145 --> 01:13:17.109
Because even people, my point is even people that are trained to do this still struggle at certain points.

1261
01:13:17.309 --> 01:13:17.950
That's my point.

1262
01:13:18.450 --> 01:13:18.911
Absolutely.

1263
01:13:18.931 --> 01:13:20.652
And I think people are very hard on themselves.

1264
01:13:21.012 --> 01:13:21.332
Yeah.

1265
01:13:21.532 --> 01:13:24.194
And I don't want this whole podcast to be, oh, I...

1266
01:13:26.666 --> 01:13:30.090
I don't want people to think I've been working so hard at the wrong thing.

1267
01:13:30.110 --> 01:13:35.958
So now let me beat myself up for not being in alignment or not working in my genius.

1268
01:13:36.238 --> 01:13:37.339
No, quite the opposite.

1269
01:13:37.399 --> 01:13:37.800
Yeah.

1270
01:13:38.180 --> 01:13:40.143
You know, the best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago.

1271
01:13:40.183 --> 01:13:42.085
The second best time is today.

1272
01:13:42.966 --> 01:13:45.409
And I didn't figure all this out till I was 50.

1273
01:13:46.947 --> 01:13:53.811
And I remember hearing these stories about people who got diagnosed with things like disorders when they were 70.

1274
01:13:54.692 --> 01:13:57.413
And they were like rejoicing, like, this is so cool.

1275
01:13:57.734 --> 01:13:59.555
I finally get to figure out what this is.

1276
01:13:59.595 --> 01:14:01.756
And what a great way to look at things.

1277
01:14:02.476 --> 01:14:06.379
And the other thing I think people need to realize is that's how they got here.

1278
01:14:07.199 --> 01:14:09.020
You know, that was their journey.

1279
01:14:09.641 --> 01:14:12.983
But no matter when you make a realization of change, it's a good thing.

1280
01:14:14.166 --> 01:14:17.729
Everybody would go, I wish this had happened before, but I wish I would have before that.

1281
01:14:18.169 --> 01:14:20.370
I look forward and I go, I'm glad it didn't happen 10 years from now.

1282
01:14:20.851 --> 01:14:22.492
I want to, we've spoken a lot about

1283
01:14:24.504 --> 01:14:27.446
how you understand your own genius, how it impacts your life.

1284
01:14:29.028 --> 01:14:34.852
I think that's something that a lot of people who are listening to this podcast are dealing with right now, especially after listening this far in is, okay, great.

1285
01:14:34.872 --> 01:14:36.954
Now I understand who I am.

1286
01:14:37.734 --> 01:14:39.196
How do I work with different people?

1287
01:14:39.276 --> 01:14:41.918
How do I hire even business partners?

1288
01:14:41.938 --> 01:14:46.321
Like how does this play into this whole, and I mean, like you've done management business consulting for years.

1289
01:14:46.862 --> 01:14:47.102
So why?

1290
01:14:49.938 --> 01:14:53.961
I mean, the book that I know you from is The Five Dysfunctions.

1291
01:14:54.401 --> 01:14:58.204
That's like the OG book that I knew when I was building teams.

1292
01:14:58.824 --> 01:15:03.067
Let's talk about how working genius plays into five dysfunctions.

1293
01:15:03.547 --> 01:15:05.448
Is there any crossover between the two?

1294
01:15:05.869 --> 01:15:07.070
You know, there is.

1295
01:15:07.210 --> 01:15:08.110
It kind of goes like this.

1296
01:15:09.791 --> 01:15:12.953
The first thing you have to do in a business is get the right people on the bus.

1297
01:15:13.134 --> 01:15:13.794
That's hiring.

1298
01:15:14.034 --> 01:15:16.936
And the first thing you need is hire for core values and behavioral values.

1299
01:15:16.956 --> 01:15:18.017
Like, do they fit here?

1300
01:15:19.438 --> 01:15:23.101
The next thing is once you get the right people on the bus, then you have to put them in the right seat on the bus.

1301
01:15:23.141 --> 01:15:24.462
And that's what working genius is.

1302
01:15:25.122 --> 01:15:27.244
It's like, hey, you're a good fit for our culture.

1303
01:15:27.524 --> 01:15:30.326
And we have the book, The Ideal Team Player, Humble, Hungry, Smart.

1304
01:15:30.386 --> 01:15:32.287
If you have a team-oriented culture, that's good.

1305
01:15:32.807 --> 01:15:34.148
Okay, they're humble, hungry, and smart.

1306
01:15:34.669 --> 01:15:36.730
But that doesn't mean they're going to be good in every job.

1307
01:15:37.291 --> 01:15:38.972
So find out what seat on the bus.

1308
01:15:39.012 --> 01:15:40.473
And that's working genius.

1309
01:15:41.651 --> 01:15:44.632
then now we've got people in the right seat on the bus and they belong on the bus.

1310
01:15:44.652 --> 01:15:46.193
How do we, how do we get this to go?

1311
01:15:46.493 --> 01:15:48.234
And that's the five dysfunctions of a team.

1312
01:15:48.674 --> 01:16:03.161
But if people don't belong on the bus or they're in the wrong seat, it's really difficult to build trust and engage in good conflict and, and commit to decisions and hold each other accountable because they're like, I hate my, I don't, I don't think I belong in this job or I don't even want to work at this company.

1313
01:16:04.021 --> 01:16:06.703
So hiring is such an important decision.

1314
01:16:07.483 --> 01:16:24.875
And when it comes to working genius and hiring, it's really about when you, when you say we're going to have to hire somebody to head marketing or to be an executive assistant or be the head of engineering, ask yourself the question, what letters are probably really critical?

1315
01:16:26.116 --> 01:16:27.617
Like maybe there's one letter.

1316
01:16:27.637 --> 01:16:28.697
If they don't have T, right?

1317
01:16:30.027 --> 01:16:31.248
I can't see how it's going to work.

1318
01:16:31.308 --> 01:16:37.770
Or if they don't have G, you know, when you do that, then when you go out and interview people, you know what you're interviewing them for.

1319
01:16:38.490 --> 01:16:41.892
Like how do you feel about getting up in front of people and rallying them when things aren't going well?

1320
01:16:42.072 --> 01:16:50.035
How do you feel like pushing people when you don't, when they don't feel like doing something that's the G make sure they have the letter you're really needing in that job.

1321
01:16:50.496 --> 01:16:57.480
So I think the biggest thing you can do in hiring is actually look at the jobs based on the letters that you need.

1322
01:16:58.301 --> 01:17:03.564
And you're not going to get necessarily the perfect person, but don't hire somebody that has none of the key letters.

1323
01:17:04.965 --> 01:17:05.665
It's just not going to work.

1324
01:17:05.805 --> 01:17:17.269
Because you've seen leaders almost fire someone, like good people, because that person was a good fit for the organization, but they didn't have the right letters for that particular job.

1325
01:17:17.609 --> 01:17:28.352
Yes, I remember right after this came out, one of the CEOs we worked with had this amazing VP of sales, and she was an ET as it turned out, they didn't know that.

1326
01:17:28.592 --> 01:17:33.174
So she was super loyal, really managed her people well, and always made her numbers.

1327
01:17:33.854 --> 01:17:36.795
And so she was fantastic and she had great values, fit the company.

1328
01:17:37.516 --> 01:17:42.178
The market changed and had to reinvent the sales strategy because it was going to be a different go-to-market strategy.

1329
01:17:42.458 --> 01:17:43.419
She couldn't come up with anything.

1330
01:17:44.019 --> 01:17:45.880
And the CEO was like, why?

1331
01:17:46.340 --> 01:17:47.701
She's my head of sales.

1332
01:17:48.301 --> 01:17:51.703
If she can't come up with a new sales strategy, I guess I have to hire somebody else.

1333
01:17:52.795 --> 01:17:54.456
And he was really thinking about letting her go.

1334
01:17:54.496 --> 01:17:55.496
They did the working genius.

1335
01:17:55.536 --> 01:18:01.758
And he said, and she said, I don't have any I or any D. And they found a guy in marketing who was an I.

1336
01:18:02.019 --> 01:18:03.239
And they said, can you come to our meeting?

1337
01:18:03.539 --> 01:18:05.620
And he came up with a new sales strategy in an hour.

1338
01:18:06.740 --> 01:18:09.822
And they were like, can you come to all of our offsite meetings once a quarter?

1339
01:18:09.862 --> 01:18:10.882
And he goes, yeah, I'd love this.

1340
01:18:11.402 --> 01:18:12.122
And they're like, oh good.

1341
01:18:12.283 --> 01:18:15.504
They borrowed, they outsourced invention.

1342
01:18:15.924 --> 01:18:17.765
And he goes, I almost fired her.

1343
01:18:18.932 --> 01:18:25.779
I almost fired one of my top leaders who was a cultural fit because she didn't have all six letters, basically.

1344
01:18:26.379 --> 01:18:29.382
So, yeah, that's really important to understand.

1345
01:18:29.782 --> 01:18:32.765
You can bring in contractors based on their working genius.

1346
01:18:32.805 --> 01:18:36.569
You can borrow people to help you on a project based on their working genius.

1347
01:18:37.389 --> 01:18:40.733
What do you do if you have an incredible employee that has the wrong letters?

1348
01:18:41.308 --> 01:18:42.429
And you have no place else for them.

1349
01:18:42.489 --> 01:18:42.689
Yeah.

1350
01:18:42.889 --> 01:18:45.251
You, you know, what's beautiful, beautiful about that.

1351
01:18:45.892 --> 01:18:47.693
You say to them, I love you.

1352
01:18:47.713 --> 01:18:49.054
I'm not rejecting you.

1353
01:18:49.795 --> 01:18:51.036
We don't have a job for you.

1354
01:18:51.636 --> 01:18:55.679
I want to help you find a job where you're going to get to use the, your geniuses.

1355
01:18:56.500 --> 01:19:00.022
There's no, and, and what it does is allows them not to feel like they're rejected.

1356
01:19:00.042 --> 01:19:01.203
Like they did something wrong.

1357
01:19:02.024 --> 01:19:05.527
If you're in a small company, you go, I need somebody like this.

1358
01:19:06.427 --> 01:19:09.310
The moment a job opens up that I could hire you, I would.

1359
01:19:10.474 --> 01:19:11.334
And I will help.

1360
01:19:11.394 --> 01:19:13.135
I will give you the best recommendation.

1361
01:19:13.175 --> 01:19:15.916
And I will tell people I didn't want to let him go.

1362
01:19:15.936 --> 01:19:17.077
We just didn't have that.

1363
01:19:17.117 --> 01:19:17.777
You know what I'm saying?

1364
01:19:17.797 --> 01:19:18.077
Yeah.

1365
01:19:18.317 --> 01:19:20.178
But you know what happens in so many organizations?

1366
01:19:20.238 --> 01:19:21.258
People don't do it that way.

1367
01:19:21.278 --> 01:19:22.239
And they just let somebody go.

1368
01:19:22.259 --> 01:19:23.579
And the person goes, I guess I failed.

1369
01:19:24.880 --> 01:19:26.620
And now they're like, I got fired.

1370
01:19:26.660 --> 01:19:27.701
It's like, no.

1371
01:19:28.881 --> 01:19:30.742
A friend of mine came to me and wanted to work at my company.

1372
01:19:31.963 --> 01:19:33.463
And I said, here's the deal.

1373
01:19:34.023 --> 01:19:35.384
Culturally, you're a great fit.

1374
01:19:36.756 --> 01:19:37.937
Your working genius is this.

1375
01:19:38.237 --> 01:19:40.058
The only two things we've got going right now are this.

1376
01:19:40.098 --> 01:19:40.839
You would hate that.

1377
01:19:41.179 --> 01:19:42.120
He was like, you're right, I would.

1378
01:19:42.980 --> 01:19:44.902
So come hang out with us.

1379
01:19:45.002 --> 01:19:46.323
Don't feel like we're rejecting you.

1380
01:19:47.023 --> 01:19:50.405
And that is so much easier than just pretending like, oh, no, that's okay.

1381
01:19:50.445 --> 01:19:51.346
Send us your resume.

1382
01:19:51.546 --> 01:19:53.548
It's like, I'd hire you, but I don't have that.

1383
01:19:53.728 --> 01:19:58.411
It allows you to put words to what's going on in the situation a lot easier.

1384
01:19:59.847 --> 01:20:01.771
It's like a common nomenclature now.

1385
01:20:01.831 --> 01:20:03.996
We get why you're succeeding, why you're not.

1386
01:20:04.396 --> 01:20:04.797
Right.

1387
01:20:04.937 --> 01:20:07.142
And you remove the emotion.

1388
01:20:07.984 --> 01:20:09.186
Like there's some guilt or judgment.

1389
01:20:09.206 --> 01:20:10.028
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

1390
01:20:10.048 --> 01:20:10.689
That's the whole point.

1391
01:20:11.528 --> 01:20:16.371
Why do you think leaders have a tough time having these conversations with their employees?

1392
01:20:16.611 --> 01:20:19.953
Like having the hard conversations about it's not working.

1393
01:20:19.993 --> 01:20:21.513
Is it because they don't understand why?

1394
01:20:21.653 --> 01:20:25.716
Is it because they don't have the words to describe?

1395
01:20:25.736 --> 01:20:31.779
Yeah, I think what's interesting, there's this thing called the fundamental attribution error, which I learned in college in psychology.

1396
01:20:32.059 --> 01:20:32.699
And it means this.

1397
01:20:32.999 --> 01:20:37.022
When somebody does something that I find annoying, I'll attribute it to their character.

1398
01:20:37.802 --> 01:20:41.005
But if I do something that you find annoying, I'll attribute it to my environment.

1399
01:20:41.205 --> 01:20:44.648
So I'm driving down the street and somebody cuts me off in traffic.

1400
01:20:45.269 --> 01:20:46.309
I'll go, that guy's a jerk.

1401
01:20:47.110 --> 01:20:49.152
He's probably a really selfish person.

1402
01:20:49.993 --> 01:20:52.995
And then I cut somebody off in traffic and I'm like, oh, I got lost.

1403
01:20:53.035 --> 01:20:53.976
I didn't know where I was going.

1404
01:20:54.016 --> 01:20:54.536
I'm just late.

1405
01:20:54.577 --> 01:20:55.397
We do this all the time.

1406
01:20:55.978 --> 01:21:00.402
So we're struggling with somebody at work and we think, oh, they must be lazy or they're not very smart.

1407
01:21:00.762 --> 01:21:03.845
Then you look at their working genius and you just go, oh, no, it's not that at all.

1408
01:21:03.865 --> 01:21:05.026
They're just wired differently.

1409
01:21:05.686 --> 01:21:09.608
And so once you know they're working genius, the conversation is actually really easy.

1410
01:21:09.909 --> 01:21:13.191
It's like, hey, I noticed that you often don't get that done.

1411
01:21:13.751 --> 01:21:15.692
And T is in one of your frustrations.

1412
01:21:15.852 --> 01:21:17.353
That must be really hard for you.

1413
01:21:17.833 --> 01:21:21.475
You're not saying what's wrong with you or you're letting me down.

1414
01:21:21.796 --> 01:21:25.318
You're saying this is just not aligned with what you're best at.

1415
01:21:26.622 --> 01:21:27.883
Suddenly the guilt and judgment are gone.

1416
01:21:27.903 --> 01:21:29.663
And they're like, yeah, you're right.

1417
01:21:30.284 --> 01:21:31.504
It makes everything so much easier.

1418
01:21:32.044 --> 01:21:34.566
And it also makes it a lot easier to find the right person when you're hiring.

1419
01:21:34.926 --> 01:21:35.426
Absolutely.

1420
01:21:35.566 --> 01:21:39.608
But always err on the first on the side of the values.

1421
01:21:40.048 --> 01:21:41.209
Faith is a big part of your life.

1422
01:21:41.589 --> 01:21:42.189
Yeah, the center.

1423
01:21:43.207 --> 01:21:48.173
You've spoken a lot about how these geniuses are God-given.

1424
01:21:49.275 --> 01:21:53.139
You grew up Catholic, but you say your faith didn't become real until adulthood.

1425
01:21:53.380 --> 01:21:55.883
So I'm curious, what was the trigger?

1426
01:21:56.123 --> 01:21:59.247
Like you bring God into a lot of your work as well, which is unique.

1427
01:21:59.427 --> 01:21:59.667
Yeah.

1428
01:21:59.788 --> 01:22:04.393
And my faith, it didn't, but you know, as an adult, you have to really, you have to keep growing in your faith.

1429
01:22:04.613 --> 01:22:04.834
Yes.

1430
01:22:05.554 --> 01:22:08.037
And so I think as an adult, I came to do that.

1431
01:22:08.077 --> 01:22:17.348
And, and you know, I'm, I'm, I don't know that there was this one moment, but I think one of the things you realize as you get a little older is this thing called success and earthly things don't last.

1432
01:22:17.368 --> 01:22:17.749
Yeah.

1433
01:22:18.388 --> 01:22:21.489
And when you realize that, you're like, okay, there has to be something more here.

1434
01:22:22.309 --> 01:22:29.012
Which is why when I work with CEOs that keep striving for even more money and more money, I'm like, oh, there's nothing at the end of that.

1435
01:22:30.552 --> 01:22:33.993
And earlier we were talking about living in the moment and in the day.

1436
01:22:34.393 --> 01:22:35.914
And like today I woke up.

1437
01:22:36.034 --> 01:22:37.334
I don't always do this, but I did today.

1438
01:22:37.374 --> 01:22:38.735
I said the rosary and I went to mass.

1439
01:22:39.135 --> 01:22:39.875
And then I went to work.

1440
01:22:40.596 --> 01:22:41.356
It's a different day.

1441
01:22:42.370 --> 01:22:48.011
And otherwise I get up and I just like race to work and I start getting involved in everything and trying to get things done.

1442
01:22:48.051 --> 01:22:49.632
And my perspective is just like, what?

1443
01:22:49.912 --> 01:22:54.393
I mean, my faith is that you have to have an eternal perspective on everything.

1444
01:22:55.493 --> 01:23:00.214
And when we lose sight of that, we make decisions with really bad parameters.

1445
01:23:00.274 --> 01:23:03.535
So, yeah, my faith is not a part of my life.

1446
01:23:03.595 --> 01:23:04.715
It's the center of my life.

1447
01:23:05.036 --> 01:23:10.557
And when I forget that, it's inevitable that I'm going to start to feel I'm going to lose my peace.

1448
01:23:11.799 --> 01:23:21.283
One thing that I always try and bring up, and this is why I was just very excited to chat with you, even though faith is, you know, this is a small part of this podcast.

1449
01:23:21.703 --> 01:23:25.984
I always say that pursuing true success, there's sort of five buckets that I've sort of made up myself.

1450
01:23:26.024 --> 01:23:30.046
These are not anyone else's framework, but you obviously pursue wealth and money.

1451
01:23:30.086 --> 01:23:30.666
That's one of it.

1452
01:23:31.026 --> 01:23:33.407
It's necessary in a society to survive.

1453
01:23:34.027 --> 01:23:34.347
100%.

1454
01:23:34.748 --> 01:23:39.790
And you have your physical health, your mental health, your relationships, but then your spirituality as well.

1455
01:23:40.631 --> 01:23:46.333
You work with so many very successful founders, CEOs.

1456
01:23:47.414 --> 01:23:53.277
What's the difference between somebody that has a component of spirituality in their life and their business versus somebody who has none?

1457
01:23:54.317 --> 01:24:00.523
Um, gosh, and, and the last, I don't want to seem like I'm being condescending or critical of people that don't have faith.

1458
01:24:00.764 --> 01:24:04.387
Although I would be lying if I didn't say like in this moment, I pray that they will.

1459
01:24:05.388 --> 01:24:08.191
Because that's not one of those things you don't share.

1460
01:24:09.232 --> 01:24:10.814
Like, well, I have faith, but you don't.

1461
01:24:10.854 --> 01:24:11.334
And that's fine.

1462
01:24:11.515 --> 01:24:13.036
It's like, then that's not the right faith.

1463
01:24:13.056 --> 01:24:17.320
Because in my faith, it's like, I want others to experience the love of Christ and peace.

1464
01:24:18.891 --> 01:24:24.676
So I think that it gets down to that word and that's peace and the stress thing.

1465
01:24:24.936 --> 01:24:37.287
It's like when we say that person is successful, but if you knew that they were stressed and didn't have peace and were striving for more, I think that we would probably not want to say that was success.

1466
01:24:38.168 --> 01:24:41.411
So success is an external thing that you can put on a spreadsheet.

1467
01:24:42.439 --> 01:24:44.680
Okay, maybe they're successful in that regard.

1468
01:24:45.140 --> 01:24:59.808
But I would say that the guy who's working at a random job and he's peaceful and happy and knows God and loves his family and he makes enough money to take care of them, that is success.

1469
01:25:01.405 --> 01:25:08.933
And I think that fame, wealth and power are things that we should run from, like excessive.

1470
01:25:09.734 --> 01:25:10.615
I agree with that.

1471
01:25:10.895 --> 01:25:15.840
And I've learned that by being around enough people and like leaning in too far into those things.

1472
01:25:16.220 --> 01:25:20.605
And I've come to realize fame, wealth and power are something that is just not meant for me.

1473
01:25:22.582 --> 01:25:23.762
I've thought about this a lot.

1474
01:25:24.122 --> 01:25:39.886
I think that one of these ideas that has really stuck with me is if you don't have a version of God, like a more traditional version of spirituality or God or religion in your life, something else takes the place of God.

1475
01:25:40.027 --> 01:25:40.827
Exactly.

1476
01:25:41.587 --> 01:25:43.567
Everybody has a God.

1477
01:25:44.728 --> 01:25:45.648
For many people, it's a them.

1478
01:25:46.268 --> 01:25:47.229
And I think that's toxic.

1479
01:25:47.509 --> 01:25:49.872
I think it's incredibly destructive.

1480
01:25:50.112 --> 01:25:58.441
I love one of the definitions of humility, which is the ultimate virtue, because the ultimate sin at the center of all sin is pride.

1481
01:25:59.141 --> 01:26:00.583
And the ultimate virtue then is humility.

1482
01:26:00.903 --> 01:26:03.966
And one definition of humility is there is a God and it's not me.

1483
01:26:04.287 --> 01:26:05.708
So how can I be anything but humble?

1484
01:26:06.249 --> 01:26:07.330
And that kind of makes sense.

1485
01:26:08.060 --> 01:26:11.963
When you work with these CEOs and these founders, you're helping them with very tactical things.

1486
01:26:12.683 --> 01:26:18.467
But what's the advice outside of the tactics that you give them, just in terms of what we're talking about right now?

1487
01:26:18.587 --> 01:26:22.590
You're talking to super high-achieving type A people.

1488
01:26:24.831 --> 01:26:34.998
Do you ever have to sort of counsel them on other parts of their life to get them to get to the point where they can be open to ideas that can help their business, maybe be more empathetic, be more humble?

1489
01:26:35.454 --> 01:26:36.034
Absolutely.

1490
01:26:36.275 --> 01:26:41.018
And one of the things I like to say is ask yourself why you're doing what you're doing.

1491
01:26:41.918 --> 01:26:45.661
I wrote a book called The Motive, which came out the day after COVID broke.

1492
01:26:46.281 --> 01:26:49.103
So it was a great time to release a book, but it's called The Motive.

1493
01:26:49.223 --> 01:26:52.845
And it's about a CEO sitting down to say, why am I doing this?

1494
01:26:52.885 --> 01:26:53.826
And there's two motives.

1495
01:26:54.526 --> 01:26:55.707
Is it for me?

1496
01:26:56.527 --> 01:26:58.148
Because it makes me comfortable.

1497
01:26:58.168 --> 01:26:59.789
I have fun.

1498
01:27:00.330 --> 01:27:01.130
I get wealthy.

1499
01:27:01.551 --> 01:27:02.851
I get famous.

1500
01:27:02.871 --> 01:27:02.971
Yeah.

1501
01:27:03.812 --> 01:27:06.537
and have influence, or is it in service of others?

1502
01:27:07.098 --> 01:27:11.706
And I know that sounds very altruistic, but a leader is a sacrificial job.

1503
01:27:12.527 --> 01:27:15.372
And if you're a CEO of a company and you think it's about...

1504
01:27:16.310 --> 01:27:19.551
For your personal economics, it's not going to work.

1505
01:27:20.211 --> 01:27:22.351
Eventually, it's just going to implode.

1506
01:27:22.551 --> 01:27:27.052
So the thing I like to say is leaders need to check why they're doing what they're doing.

1507
01:27:27.592 --> 01:27:36.094
And if you go to work every day and go, I am here because people need me and I need to make good decisions for them and their benefit, you will like what you're doing.

1508
01:27:37.374 --> 01:27:40.215
And by the way, I've slid into the wrong motivation before.

1509
01:27:40.694 --> 01:27:42.635
I think everybody has at some point.

1510
01:27:42.855 --> 01:27:45.517
I used to come to work at some point and said, we've been pretty successful.

1511
01:27:45.537 --> 01:27:47.478
Now I just want to work on stuff I feel like working on.

1512
01:27:48.719 --> 01:27:52.782
And it's like, no, I have to do what needs to be done.

1513
01:27:53.842 --> 01:27:56.264
And this is where working genius kind of comes full circle.

1514
01:27:56.524 --> 01:27:58.505
It's, I do want to work in my area of working genius.

1515
01:27:58.646 --> 01:28:01.808
It's my job to make sure that everything is getting done for everyone else.

1516
01:28:02.428 --> 01:28:06.190
And at the end of the day, if there's nobody left to do it, I don't care which genius it is.

1517
01:28:06.591 --> 01:28:09.933
It's me that has to step in and do the, the one that I don't like.

1518
01:28:09.953 --> 01:28:10.293
Yeah.

1519
01:28:10.673 --> 01:28:13.035
Hopefully that's not very often.

1520
01:28:13.395 --> 01:28:22.083
But your North Star of building this thing or being in this role in service of others will allow you to do that.

1521
01:28:22.283 --> 01:28:22.543
Yes.

1522
01:28:23.684 --> 01:28:25.646
If you know that it's not about you.

1523
01:28:27.838 --> 01:28:32.841
Suffering and sacrifice are the things in our society that people don't appreciate.

1524
01:28:33.141 --> 01:28:34.682
Life involves suffering and sacrifice.

1525
01:28:34.702 --> 01:28:35.623
We're not supposed to run for them.

1526
01:28:35.643 --> 01:28:37.964
We're not supposed to, like, heap them on ourselves just to do it.

1527
01:28:38.445 --> 01:28:43.568
But if we think the purpose of life is to avoid suffering and sacrifice, we are going to live a very miserable life.

1528
01:28:43.808 --> 01:28:45.009
It's interesting how that works, huh?

1529
01:28:45.169 --> 01:28:45.429
Isn't it?

1530
01:28:45.689 --> 01:28:45.929
Yeah.

1531
01:28:46.189 --> 01:28:50.132
And if you accept the fact, like, oh, yeah, somebody said every day you have crosses, some big, some small.

1532
01:28:50.512 --> 01:28:51.873
And if you go, yeah, I wonder what they are today.

1533
01:28:53.514 --> 01:28:54.274
Suddenly you can appease.

1534
01:28:55.275 --> 01:28:56.536
Wow, this is a big one.

1535
01:28:57.728 --> 01:29:00.190
But if you're like trying to dodge your crosses.

1536
01:29:00.570 --> 01:29:02.171
Where else can they find you, follow you?

1537
01:29:02.251 --> 01:29:04.393
You have your favorite social.

1538
01:29:04.413 --> 01:29:05.133
Where do you want to send them?

1539
01:29:06.214 --> 01:29:08.656
I think that my company is called The Table Group.

1540
01:29:09.056 --> 01:29:11.038
So tablegroup.com is our website there.

1541
01:29:11.378 --> 01:29:13.159
And then we do, we have a couple of podcasts.

1542
01:29:13.339 --> 01:29:15.921
One of them called At The Table, which is just about organizational life.

1543
01:29:16.021 --> 01:29:18.243
But then we do one for Working Genius.

1544
01:29:18.263 --> 01:29:22.346
We have so many people that are following Working Genius now that they just want to hear like, what's the latest?

1545
01:29:22.386 --> 01:29:25.188
And as we're doing more thinking about that, we're putting it out there.

1546
01:29:25.733 --> 01:29:31.517
So you've given over a lot of wisdom, but say you could take everything you've learned over your life and you could only pass on one lesson to your children.

1547
01:29:31.898 --> 01:29:33.079
What would that lesson be and why?

1548
01:29:33.659 --> 01:29:47.509
To know that you're loved by God and that anything that happens in your life, whether it's good or challenging, is an opportunity to draw closer to Him.

1549
01:29:47.829 --> 01:29:49.150
Why is that the most important lesson?

1550
01:29:49.651 --> 01:29:55.195
Because if you know that, you're going to have peace and resiliency and

1551
01:29:57.317 --> 01:29:58.241
And you're not going to fear.

1552
01:29:59.949 --> 01:30:00.753
Fear is not a good thing.