Lessons - The FBI's Hostage Negotiation Trainer on How to Get Through to Anyone | Dr. Mark Goulston - Psychiatrist & Author of Just Listen

In this lessons episode, explore the psychology behind persuasive communication and what makes ideas truly resonate. Discover how to spot hidden objections before they become rejection, understand why compelling stories outperform hard selling, and uncover how generosity and self-awareness create lasting opportunities. You understand communication exceptionally well. and everything that you've done. If you go back and you, I think you were at one point, uh, a hostage negotiation trainer. So, I mean, listening, communication is paramount. And if you don't have a message that resonates with the audience, you're, Keep in mind, my audience is significantly lower risk in terms of disappointing than somebody who's holding a hostage. I think that's a higher stakes game than that podcast list and they're driving on their way to work. But the point is, you still have to communicate in a way that resonates with them where they don't tune you out. And they don't say, oh, this is a waste of my time. So you've nailed it. A hundred percent, you've nailed it. So where do we go? So go ahead. Let's build on what you just said. Okay. Something I do with accelerators and their cohorts is I will often do a presentation on how to pitch to investors after you run out of friends and family money. And something, the CEO of some of these accelerators say, my people love this when you bring it up. And again, when I'm there speaking to these startups, I'll say, how many of you have ever pitched to an investor and you smile and you think it's a yes? Yes. and you think, oh good, they're going to give me money, they're going to invest, and it's not a yes. And what I say is, investors don't smile. It's about money. They're smiling to be polite, because in the first five or ten minutes of what you've said, they already know it's a no, but they don't want to insult you because you put so much effort into that deck of yours. You know, they don't want to, after four slides and you get 40, to say, I think I've seen enough, goodbye. So they smile, right? And when I've done this with their groups, three of the people say, that happened to me yesterday. I said, well, don't count on the money happening. And I say, this is what they're listening for. Because one of the most compelling things you can do, and I have another saying, you want to be compelling to open people's minds and, to earn the right to be convincing about what you're trying to sell them. And too often people are so passionate about what they're trying to sell that they are convincing too soon. And what's on your investor's mind, and this is what I tell them, is I say, if you've had enough of those smiles, which turned out to be no's, Here's a suggestion. Modify it to fit your language. And when they smile like that, and you know it's a no, you stop all the slides. And you say, oh, can we pause for a moment? And they're going to get nervous because you caught them not wanting to be rude to you. They go, ha, ha, ha. You caught them. But just a quick point before you go. Just a quick, how do you know Just you're saying that when they're actually smiling on the Zoom call, that is a very like it's a significant indicator that they're not going to proceed. So the smile is them tuning out and saying no, as opposed to if they're focused and concentrated and like kind of like what I do when I'm trying to pay attention. You frown and you focus. That's more of an indicator. So you're saying the smile is the red flag. I think it's a red flag. I'll tell you what would make them smile, and this is one of the ways you can address it, is you, and even if they're smiling and it's a good smile leading to a yes, you pause and you say, when I started this presentation, we were like this. I need money, you have money, you know, and you came here because I'm possibly a company that you're going to give money to. And now we're like this, where this is you with money that I'm never going to see, and here is me. And hopefully that's intriguing because it shows so much self-awareness, and you could say, let me see if I get what you are listening for. that you didn't hear or you didn't hear yet, and maybe you don't think you'll ever hear. It's kind of like what I said about you and your audiences. Now, chances are you're not pitching to the head of an investment company. You know, you're pitching to someone who's lower down, probably not even a partner. And what you say is, I think you're listening for a unicorn. Because there's a good chance that you may have brought in some non-unicorns. And there may even be a chance that you brought in some businesses that really made people question your judgment. Like, what were you thinking? And is it possible that you're listing for a unicorn for that Grand Slam home run where when you bring it back, they say, how much can we put in? You know, when can you secure this? Yeah. So am I reading you right or wrong that you're listening for something that'll be that special? And given what I've already told you, it doesn't seem like this is that special. So do you follow me? You're tracking with something. And here are the two things also. I talked about be compelling to open and convincing to close. I was an advisor in the O.J. Simpson trial to the prosecution. And one of the ways to be compelling is for the other person to think of, to say to themselves, I never would have thought of that ever. And that is relevant to our problems. So I shared something. So what we're doing is we're... Go ahead. Go ahead, sorry. So I shared something with the district attorney in L.A., and I said, you know, when you're picking a jury, this might be one of the things you should look for. And he went back to Marsha Clark, and then he came back, and he said, we never, ever would have thought of that, and it's the elephant in the room. And I don't talk much about it because they lost. And again, I'm not an opportunist. I sent them 150 pages of faxes. And they said, you know, 80% of your stuff is really off-the-wall crazy. But 20% of it is just, it's startling. And they wouldn't tell me what happened. which of my input they'd use, although occasionally one of the prosecutors would say, watch the trial tomorrow, you might notice something. And so what's compelling is that I just name-dropped the O.J. Simpson trial. That wasn't bad. But also people thinking, I never would have thought of that ever, and that's relevant. Right. And the other thing is what I did with you about your audience, when people say, how did you know that about me when I didn't tell you anything? Geez, I wonder what other things you know about me. I wonder what other insights you have into me. So I think those are the two best first impressions if you want to engage someone. if that's what triggers what they're thinking. And so, again, talking, circling back to investors, you know, there is a good chance that they're listening for a unicorn. And by the way, if they say, you know, they may not be forthcoming, they might say, well, that makes sense, because they don't want to give up, you know, because they're all control freaks. Well, that makes sense. And then you can say, look, if you can tell me what a unicorn would look like so that you could recognize it. And it doesn't have to be something you brought into your investment firm. It could be any unicorn that someone brought in, and when they were celebrating it, you know, what were some of the things that made it such a unicorn? And here's the other thing that I did with these cohorts. I said, And if you can get them to describe what a unicorn looks like because they're licking their lips to find it, you can say, oh, we actually have that, but that would have been slides 30 to 35 and you would have been asleep by then. I love this. Or, you know, that is so specific. I don't have it, we don't have it, but there's three companies in my cohort that do. And I'm happy to make an introduction and I'm not looking for a referral fee, I'm looking for you to be successful and I'm looking for them to be successful. And then you make the introduction and you're generous. with no strings attached, because that will enable you to go back to that investor and to go back to those members of your cohort because you focused on their success other than your own. Can I tell you a funny anecdote? Please, yeah. So I'm going to speak in Moscow, and again, my books have done pretty well. And one of their biggest business publications, it's called RBC. I think it's like Fortune or Forbes. Because I'm coming there, my books are so well known, I get a call from Ilya. And Ilya says to me, I, Dr. Goulston, I know you're coming to Moscow, and I'm assigned to do an interview with you. And I said, Ilya, it's good to meet you. Can I tell you the one and only thing that I'm concerned about? What is that, Dr. Goldstein? The only thing I'm concerned about is that you write an article that gets you a big raise of promotion. It's the only thing I care about. That's the good news. The bad news is, as my good friend Scott knows, I kind of talk in tangents. I throw in this story, I throw in this insight, so it's going to be up to you to somehow pull it all together to write such an article. And here's the proof of method. of building that kind of generosity, I go to Moscow, and the person planning the event said, Dr. Goulston, do you remember that interview you did for RBC? I said, yes. They said, it's been viewed 465,000 times, and it's in the top 10 number of views of any article in the history of the publication. I'm sorry. So there was something about that. I should reach out to Ilya and say, how are you doing? But, you know, we're in kind of a war zone. Yeah. But can you see how that could work? Thanks for tuning in. If you found this valuable, don't forget to hit that subscribe button so you never miss an episode. And if you want to dive deeper into this conversation, check out the links in the description to watch the full episode. See you in the next one.