Darragh Grove-White, CEO of This One Marketing | Growth Hacking Guru

The only podcast you need for your business, let's do this. Welcome to the sales versus marketing podcast. I'm your host, Scott. Join me as we explore and demystify the latest trends, technologies and strategies used to achieve massive growth in 10x businesses. I'll be sitting down with sales, marketing, and business leaders. The sect, what's worked for them, the spell myths, and deliver actionable insights that you can use to ensure repeatable, sustainable, and predictable revenue in your business. Welcome to the sales versus marketing podcast where we speak with sales, marketing, and business leaders. I'm your host, Scott. And today we are speaking with Dera Grove White. Now, Dera is a career marketer. He currently is, he just actually left, his last firm to start his own digital marketing company, this one marketing based out of British Columbia, Canada. So Dera is an extremely successful marketer. He started actually his career in sales and then transitioned into marketing. He literally wrote the book on sales psychology and selling human interaction and body language. And then he went on to be wildly successful as a brand strategist, digital marketing strategist, and general marketing director at Pedex, Victoria, moving into another firm, LJ, welding and automation. He built out their digital marketing campaign from the ground up and ran a successful career as a director of marketing there before transitioning into his own firm where he's currently the founder and CEO. Dera has a unique blend of both the psychology and human drivers of what actually facilitates and helps people decide to make a purchase combined with the understanding of messaging and brand from a marketer's perspective, as well as being very technical in nature. He understands how to leverage digital marketing, growth hacking, and emerging marketing techniques to really bring a brand to the next level and get the most dollar value or ROI on their ad spend or marketing spend. So Dera Grove White is an extremely interesting marketer. His background, he's been very successful in a variety of different fields that all lend cadence to why he's doing so well right now. So Dera, take it away. Give us a little bit more information about your background, what you're doing now and what brought you to where you are today. So I am a digital strategist that helps my clients engage decision makers in form stakeholders and mobilize grassroots resources. So that's like the 35,000-foot view, if you will. And I do that through marketing strategies and growth hacking tactics, basically out of a frustration for the big companies like Google and Facebook and stuff like that, I get a deep pleasure from gaming their systems because how we never gave permission to have our data weaponized against us. And so I get a deep gratification from returning the favor to them by exploiting their vulnerabilities. And so, okay, so let's talk about, so that's great, so that's a very cool perspective. I've never heard a marketer say that, but it's very true, so I appreciate where you're coming from because I think a lot of people are on the hate the, the hate the fang companies right now. So, yeah, so where did you, where did you come from? Because now you are the founder CEO of this one marketing, correct? That's this one, yeah. This one, okay. So where did you, where did you come from? What's your, what's your background? I have a sales background, actually, it's not like yourself, that ever since I was 16, I was actually 15, I was doing sales. So my first job was actually, I'm kind of embarrassed to admit this and it's probably weird to put it on the record, but my first real job was selling credit cards to Americans, back when I was a kid. I didn't know what I was doing and after I kind of realized, oh, this is probably not a good thing. I ended up leaving that to do sales, telemarketing at another place called the Buy and Sell Newspaper at Toronto, which I don't even think exists anymore now, but, I don't think so now, but just generally newspapers, but, but I have this, this background in sales that then got accentuated through a curiosity in your linguistic programming, NLP, which I think most sales people would be familiar with. It's like the cognitive bias is the unconscious shortcuts that we are constantly taking when we're learning information that I was really curious about, and I did a lot of, a lot of studying and all the while, I did terribly in school, like real bad, like failed more math classes than anybody I know. I was not, I was also not so great at math, and it's when you're going through it at the time, you don't always have the perspective of like, hey, maybe it's not your fault. Yeah. Maybe there's a problem with the system, maybe there's the way it's been taught. That's a whole other can of worms that extends far outside the context of driving revenue for companies, but yes, I do believe the people that are entrepreneurial by nature, which obviously you are, you're like a self learner, you learn a certain way, and you're always trying to learn more and more and more and more and grow. I think that that doesn't always work with the way that schools teach over information. So yeah, your story is not so uncommon. Yeah, and it was actually, it was because of those failures that I think it ended up making me way stronger in the long run. Just knowing failure and constantly having to redo things, it's just eventually it makes your skin stronger. I unfortunately, I had to kind of figure out who I was and what my real strengths were and stuff like that, and that obviously, that takes time, but after I dropped out of school, I got into fights, sold drugs, stuff like that when I was a kid, but I eventually went back to school. That had a bit of a kind of a life perspective change, and I wanted to become a doctor like my dad and my grandparents and stuff like that. How old are you here when you're just to put a little context around it? I would have been 20 when I went back to high school after I dropped out for a few years to get in trouble and get into fights and that kind of thing. So I ended up going back to school and I did so about it, science and math as I mentioned earlier, but I ended up finishing high schools in adult, and then I left to come back to Victoria to do university because I wanted to go into medicine, but the truth is I was terrible at chemistry and physics and stuff, so after some soul searching, and I was doing a lot of volunteer at a hospital too, and I realized I could still help people by going into business. In fact, I might even be able to help more people and still get to acknowledge that part of who I wanted to become, you know what I mean? I do. I think it's very powerful and it's a perspective that I've never really thought of before, but at the end of the day, if you are truly good at what you do, it's because you do want to help people. And people even realize that because it becomes so routine. But if, you know, even I'm thinking back to when I first started selling, and some of my proudest moments were seeing a customer, like after they've purchased something or whatever, just like smile on their face, like I've worked in one of my first first jobs, actually on my first job, but one of my jobs when I was younger when I was still in high school was in retail, and it's like it's such a simple job that people play for granted, but when you actually solve a problem, or when you deliver like that customer experience that you can tell they've never received from somebody in a store before, it's like a very heartwarming feeling. And I think that extrapolated times of thousands when you're selling large enterprise and you solve organizational issues for customers, you still have that feeling of, wow, I've done good. And I think that, unfortunately, a lot of people associate sales with negative and, you know, pushing solutions and people's throats that they don't need or trying to manipulate them into buying anyone who's good at selling can never maintain, like they don't, first of all, they don't sell like that, but anyone who's good at selling doesn't sell like that because if you do sell like that, that is a that is a stressor on yourself that you cannot maintain in perpetuity. So if you are good at selling, you generally are doing good for people and you feel good about it, which is why you're, you know, people are career salesmen. It's not because they love, you know, ruining people's days and, you know, making them commit the things that, and nobody wants to get somebody to commit to something and then have them coming back later and yelling and then escalate, like that's not a life that anybody actually wants to live. So when you actually do something good, yeah, you feel real damn good about it. And like what you're saying, I never thought about it like that, but yeah, you, there's another way to do good for people. And if you could sort of tap into that, I think you're on to something. The, I mean, to the point about like in the retail sales experience to give someone an unexpected positive interaction when you go beyond what their expectations of the sales process was supposed to be for them to walk away feeling like not only was there an external solution, but there was an internal thing that happened as well. It wasn't just a transaction, there was a change or a transformation. Yeah, that's, that's very powerful. I like that perspective a lot and that sounds like I've actually ever heard when I've spoken to people about sales or marketing, but I, I really, really like that perspective. It's really refreshing that you've acknowledged that. Okay, so you wanted to do good by people, but you realized that your forte was not medicine or at least getting the pre-qualifications required to to practice medicine, which is, which is fine. God knows I couldn't go back to school for another four, six, eight years. Yeah, so I still ended up volunteering at a hospital every week for the next four or six, I guess it was eight years in total, taking on elderly guy with disabilities. We go to the mall, you didn't have any family to visit them. So I was matched up with him as a visitor companion and we go to the mall and have like Tim Martin's coffee because he was stuck in a wheelchair, it was, it was basically the thing he'd get to look forward to every week, and it's little things like that where you get to make such a big difference in people's lives, that's, it's just, it's oddly enough, it's very motivating and if you're familiar with Victor Frankl's man search for me, being able to be in touch with purpose and, and tangibly experience it on a regular basis is, it's, it's like Zinc, was it Zinc Zagler who said motivation is like bathing, you have to do it every day. I don't know that quote, but I like it though. Okay, yeah, so, but anyway, I ended up writing an ebook on body language for persuasion, so just to kind of bring it to the, how the heck did I get here with gain and social media and search engines and stuff like that. So I wrote this ebook that took me three years and it was on body language and a combination of neural linguistic programming, basically persuasion stuff, right, which, you know, kind of in the big picture of things, marketing and sales, we're ultimately talking about persuasion, right, just on a micro on a macro. And so I wrote the book, I did the Amazon publishing and frankly, I didn't sell very many books. Like, I think a lot of people and this was one of the many failures that I can look back on in credit to why and where I got to because of it. Another example was when I was a big brother for big brothers, big sisters, Joey, my, my little, he and I did a fundraising campaign to raise $10,000 to build a school in China. That's where he wanted to build a school. I said, sure, no problem, let's do it. And we did this, this micro crowdfunding thing where you reach out to 35 people in your network and say for $3 a day, for three months, we all put our money together and we build a school for $10,000. Now I thought this was like a sure shot thing, like for sure going to happen, we're going to build a school and it's going to be amazing. And we do these like personal one minute videos, him and Joey and me to the people that I invite to join this campaign. And we only get like three people, three or four people that donated $300 each, which is still a lot of money. But it's not enough to build a school in China, not to build a school in China. You know, at the time, I remember on Facebook letting my network, no, hey, we're doing something exciting, but there was, and then I actually said, I mean, I'm going to really talk publicly about it, but after that, I never really followed up with my network about how everything went because there was kind of an embarrassment that we didn't do it right. And I felt like I was supposed to be this kid's role model and I kind of failed in terms of like building the school or at least that's how I thought about it and I was a bit embarrassed. And I realized like, you know, obviously in retrospect, the fact that we even raised over $1,000 in the first place actually pretty good. And for Joey, who comes from like poverty, unfortunately, like his, this was a really big deal. So my perspective being like, hey, we didn't need the $10,000. And then Joey's like, wow, that's a lot of money. Raise a thousand bucks, yeah. Which was still, you know, but this was another marketing failure, frankly, that I experienced. And another one was when I was in student politics, and I lost by eight votes, you know, and there was a lot more than eight votes, I think it was like several hundred, but I, but that was another marketing communications for persuasion failure that made me realize that there was, there's a lot to be learned here. You know, when they say failure is the best teacher. Yeah. So I think, I think what's really interesting is you literally wrote a book on, on psychology and how to build, how to persuade people, but your lessons learned weren't just from researching and learning. It was the actual failures that are prompting you to sort of learn and grow, even though you literally wrote the book on how to do it, it's like you still had to fail to learn how to do it, which I think is such a strong indicator of how important it is to fail, but to take those learnings and to move on to the next level, next stage. Yeah. And to, you know, they call it, there's recycling, and then there's upcycling, and this is an example of like, okay, I jumped it, but I can upcycle it into something better. I like that. So, so those, those are those intimate and personal and public failures to lose an election by eight votes and have people tell you, hey, they voted for you and how did it go and constantly saying, well, I lost or, yeah, the building of school, just for it to be so public and to be vulnerable and to fail and to still keep trying, you know, that was, that was a test of character too, I mean, or at least a trial of character. I agree. I think it's, they always say that if you want to hold yourself accountable to something, you put it out in the open and you make it public. So to, to continue to do that and to continue to, to fail, but grow. And I think that fail is a, a harsh word. So like he said, it's all about perspective. So how many people took three years and successfully published the book? Yeah, maybe you didn't sell so many, but how many people haven't been able to finish a book? An example for, you know, your, your big brothers, your little, he thought $1,000 was a ton of money. Okay. Well, it still is, it still is perspective, which is actually sort of speaking more to your personality as somebody who expects high things and expects yourself to deliver more than your actual quote unquote failures. In my opinion, at least I think it's more a testament to your incredible personality as opposed to your, your lack of being able to succeed because in some people's mind, you did succeed several times, but, yeah, but it's a, it's our standards that we hold ourselves to that, I mean, we'll think about it this way. If I considered those successes, it's a, like this thought experiment, but if I did, would, would I have kept trying this hard because I didn't interpret it as a rejection or a failure? Good point. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's okay. So, all right. So you, so lessons learned. So where are we now? So continue, continue the story. So I, yeah, I realized that there, there's a lot of people like me out there that wrote a book or that produced the great thing and that there was no audience for it, right? That there's, there's a disconnect between creator and distribution, a big one, a dramatic one actually. In fact, like I've, I've created some how-to's of how to basically get your video index properly for search engines because there's so many great videographers out there and so much great content out there that just doesn't get any traction because people don't understand the indexing process, the distribution process, how that really works, they just think that once you make that great content, it'll get found and that's just not the case. So with, with those failures like the ones I've described or at least a couple of them, it was creating stuff is only half the battle. You know, the other half is like figuring out, okay, who am I creating this stuff for? As a sales and marketing professional, you have to know your audience. Otherwise, you're not going to be able to do good communication, you know? So how did you learn, how did you learn or how did, you know, I guess you've learned throughout your career, but how did you learn how to bridge that gap? The, I would say that, you know, after finishing my university degree in business, just as I was finishing it, I did a HubSpot certification on inbound market and that was an introduction for me on a very serious change that's going through the marketing industry, where, you know, legacy media is all about interruptive marketing, where it interrupts your experience. Negative user experience, but we're used to it, right? Like, thank radio, commercials, newspapers, things that, you know, kind of get in your way versus, like, great lead generation, where you're putting out the breadcrumbs for people to find how to solve their problem and then to nobody to go to for that. So there was a paradigm shift with the HubSpot inbound marketing course that I took. That was really helpful. I created a marketing director position for the industrial automation company I was working with for about five years. So I created a position out of what was originally just a sales job, a marketing, and I built the marketing department. It's, was it a case of them not understanding the value of inbound marketing because it was more of a legacy industry? Yeah, well, I mean, they're very much a legacy industry in that oil and gas was their main customer, and they were one of the first to get into paid ads, like, back 10 years ago, and they didn't think they had to do much, much different. And because it's a slower to change industry, they're just wasn't an urgency. It wasn't a tech company, like, say, like, a SaaS company or something like that, where it's very cutting edge and technologically driven. So, okay, so this is great because you created the position because you saw the opportunity because of your experience. How did you build out and how did you walk this legacy organization through a digital transformation in the marketing arena? Because that's essentially what your job was. It was bringing them up the speed. So, walk us through that. Well, I think probably one of the most valuable nuggets of this process was to freight, when you're doing something that's going to potentially have a big impact or big change, and it threatens people's normal way of doing things and their comfort level. Instead of calling it what it is, a big change, reframing it for people to get buy-in, because this is one of the hardest parts about it, is getting your change management. Well, I was actually going to ask you about managing up because I know that I'm sure you encountered pushback, so, but continue, sorry. Often and regularly, but this is this one little hack, well, for anybody listening that is feeling challenged by senior leadership and that they don't feel empowered to do their jobs, because senior leadership is saying, hold on, hold on, I'm not on board with this yet. The trick is, call it a pilot project. It takes the edge out of it, it even gets them on board with wanting to experiment too, but obviously you don't want them to mess with your experiment, so you say, hey, that's a great idea. Let's put that on the list of projects that we can also experiment with as a pilot. This is going to be separate from your pilot, but to get people excited about change, this little hack, call it a pilot project, because it doesn't feel like it's much of a risk, you feel like you're able to take experiments. And then you show them the value, and you show them the ROI, or you show them the increased brand awareness, or MQLs, whatever KPI or metric, so I like that, because managing up, like you said, is by far the most difficult thing to do. Oh, and changing the guard that's happening, or at least has been happening for the last six years, as the baby rumor generation starts to, you know, retire and younger generations are taking on leadership positions. There's still some of the older dogs out there that barely use email properly, you know? Yeah. And although they have a wealth of experience and knowledge, they're, unfortunately, the way that they've always been doing things interferes with the way that things could be done better. So, okay, so you started, you started sort of optimizing and augmenting this company's marketing presence. Is that, go ahead, sorry. Yeah. So, basically, this end would end up becoming my whole business process, as I'm working, but at least the first part, which I think we'll answer your question, is well, how do you do that? The first thing is to identify what are your KPI's? What is your real strategy? Who are you trying to reach? What are your business goals? In the case of this company, it was getting more leads, getting more website visitors, getting more website visitors to engage on site to convert, right? These were, at the time, we thought social media was an important KPI, which, you know, to some degree, it still is, but it's not really for this company, but how many followers, you know, just basically getting all your key performance indicators. I keep saying, guys, I should stop using jargon for those, who just, but yeah, figuring out, what are the key business goals and then get baselines? You don't know how many leads you get per month? Okay, let's, today we're going to get that. Yeah. It's the customer acquisition cost is through social paid social. Okay, let's get a benchmark for it. You can't improve what you're not measuring. So do you think that because some of these things, it's so funny. For some people listening, this is like, how do you operate a business without these KPI's? It doesn't make sense. You're just, you're just flying blindly. So do you see this a lot with companies without singling out companies, but with companies you work with as a consultant? Do you see that people don't even set those KPI's and they're just kind of spending money here, they're everywhere, hoping that business comes in. No rhyme, reason, understanding. 100%. The, the, the nice thing about when you frame it as a pilot, you're able to get the parameter set up so that you know what you're looking for. You and I have probably seen this a lot that advertising is a big black hole for a lot of people. It's just a big, big money pit. If you don't have the parameter set up for like, what are your goals for everything? You know, and yeah, for it's, it bonkers how many big companies actually don't have a good grasp on those key metrics? And it's, unfortunately, I think that it breeds mediocrity because it's, it's no longer objective or it's not yet objective. If someone's doing a good job, it's all subjective. It's like, hey, I like the way that looks. So let's run it. Yeah. First, hey, the, the group, the, the market research group says, hey, this is definitely a better converting message. Let's run with that as a test, right? I think that that's why you're seeing some companies. The lifespan of a CMO or chief marketing officer is getting shorter and shorter as they start measuring these KPIs against the campaigns they run. And I think that, you know, the sale, the lifespan of a VP sales is already between 16 to 18 months in a large company. But I think the CMO is catching up as they're not properly able to show ROI or return on investment for ad dollars spent or, or whatever KPI because now there's so many tools that you can use to measure these things. Whereas there wasn't all, so maybe in larger businesses, we're seeing this shift probably more predominant obviously because they have the money to spend on all these analytics insights tools. And they know how to use them and they can probably hire the talent that can say, listen, this guy's ineffective. Whereas some of the smaller companies may still be flying blind if they don't have that understanding. It can be making good money. But if they don't, if the, if the founder is not a marketing individual and you're hiring a firm that isn't transparent, then he could be spending or she could be spending quite a bit of money. And it could still be a black hole. So is that how you differentiate yourself when you work with companies? Yeah, so I mean, when we're doing this baseline thing, there's a huge education component, like being able to talk about SEOs, one of my specialties. And so explaining how SEO works, what's basically, you know, similarly when I talk about like growth hacking different platforms, you got to understand the philosophy behind how it was created and how it works and why it works at the way it does. And then you can start finding out the ways that it's exploitable, right? And so with clients, a lot of people, unfortunately, get taken in marketing. It seems to be one of those things that there's a lot of shortletons out there. There's a lot of people that say they know how to do things. And there's just, it's, it's disappointing because I see, I've seen people that overpay for marketing all the time because they just don't know. They're getting mystified by jargon rather than having things explained in really simple terms. So marketing is a, unfortunately, it has the potential to be abused. I think even like traffic, like if you look at the total amount of traffic on the internet, there's some ridiculous stats out there that like 50 to 60% of the total traffic on the internet is all bots and all fake and not real traffic. And how do you, how do you combat that? So okay, so that's a great question. How would a company know what to look for when they're hiring somebody a firm or an individual within the organization so that they can be more effective and they can measure the results? How, what should they look for when? Is there, I guess, best practices or could there be tools that they could use? That's sort of like the pathway that I'm trying to, I'm going down a little bit because you're speaking about how opaque marketing is, how do they make a more transparent? Okay, so like what would be a good litmus test? Yes, yeah, yeah, exactly. On when interviewing marketing professionals, that sounds like a good way to phrase my question. Be a good litmus test. It would be how quickly and how soon they ask about the customer versus what they think is good marketing. So how, how customer obsessed they are or how marketing segment obsessed they are? Because there's no shortage. There's a big difference between tacticians and strategists. Strategists are the big picture. Tacticians are the technicians. They're good at specific skills versus understanding how does this all work together? And when it comes to good marketers, it's how good are their questions about your target market? Like how obsessed are they about understanding them versus selling you on their services? So when you work with a company and you're going in fresh, what are the benchmarks that you try and take off in terms of if you're trying to identify their buyer persona or their target market or like what are what is like the baseline strategy that you would implement or is it all customized depending on who your client is? It has to be like I think it has to be really I mean although you can systematize it should just for efficiency. It really it needs to be about who you're trying to market to and the the detail the level of research you've done to do that right because you're actually going to get some of your best call to actions. You're going to get some of your best landing page copy. You're going to get some of the best verbiage that your your potential customer is going to respond well to by doing the research, by doing surveys, by doing interviews about like the data they committed to buying your product. What was going on that day for them? Like getting a really a wide picture like like a holistic like you know like 360 degree view of your customer and is there is there a more effective way to do that? Outside is there like is it arming your your sales team or your Salesforce with the right questions? Is it asking for example in my past what I found effective to get some sentiment customers is to ask them why they chose to buy a product as a follow-up email right after they've purchased it and and the reason why I've done that is because that's a meaningful meaningful point in the customer buying cycle. They're enthusiastic, they're excited and they like your company, love your company, they just signed right. So they're going to give you reasons as to why they buy and then what I've tried to do is I've tried to include the verbiage that they use or the features that they highlight in the marketing material. But that's like that's one that's one example so there are other ways that you can really tie into the customer yeah so I think this is probably kind of what you're saying but one of the like for a person listening right now that has lining pages and thank you pages and stuff like that one quick easy actionable would be whatever your thank you pages that should there's really two great ways of using your thank you page one is have a survey like you like you say like literally as soon as possible once they've converted find out what what was it that worked for them what is it what are their expectations because this is going to give you an idea of both how to segment and or bucket them on different messaging automated email drip campaigns and that kind of thing but also the other great thing for your thank you page when you're in terms of like you fully using the opportunity would be to have educational information about the product that gets them more hyped on what they're about to get you know like it could be frequently asked questions in the form of a video yeah in order to get them kind of amped up yeah it's even another great use of the thank you page is to validate the decision to have converted the previous step those testimonials show them brands that are also and not just before they're buying like reinforce after yeah exactly get them help them get a cognitive bias that they made the right decision right yeah yeah no that's all very good I wanted to ask you one more thing because you mentioned that you're an SEO your next SEO expert specialist whichever so the debate obviously for a company is where should we spend our dollar should we spend it on paid or should we spend it on organic what are your thoughts on which channel is best well it's I think you'll probably agree with this you split test it and let the data decide you know I don't think it should be one or the other it should be both and it should be consistent marketing has a compound effect it pays in compound interest right like you're you're a fantastic content you put out there yeah you posted in a week it's probably not going to turn in any business but over time it has a compound effect right so if you have very short-term tight deadlines you're probably going to have to put more effort into paid ads to get the traffic but if you're building a company to succeed in a long run you have to be doing organics you have to be doing great content too it's it's not one or the other in fact with a lot of startups they don't necessarily have the budget to do to do both and they're they have to do organic for the most part and they have to save that paid budget or conversions and direct ROI yeah activities but I think it's also you mentioned startups too and that's a really good point like you have to figure out what your messaging is what your brand is what your value prop is or you're just throwing money down the you know down the toilet so it's very important to map those things at first and to like hit those those benchmarks before you start spending money because that's not going to be the answer if you don't know what your actual product is the uh for sure and the uh one of the things I learned in uh a couple things I learned in entrepreneurship uh this uh my school program was one is called a smoke test or a fire test smoke test and basically what that is is you you run Facebook ads um to see if there is actually demand based on who clicks them so it's an interesting way of testing headlines and that kind of stuff and testing is there even a demand for what this offer um and the other thing from from that specialization was to figure out your minimum viable product first before you put a whole bunch of money into it if it's at its very basic level of a value prop uh if it's making money then it's worth tweaking and improving but if you haven't been able to uh make money come out of it by putting more and more money into it it's a huge risk right yeah but if you're pretty proven your minimum viable product you're making uh then you can you know put more money into it but if you haven't proven it yet you're essentially risking a great deal yeah yeah yeah no that's very good um okay so let's i'm trying to think of where i want to take this i think what i'd like to do just because you've worked with a variety of different companies i want to get your insights on um the worst practices that you see in the in marketing um across the industry what are things that you see are very are very prevalent now that you think are detrimental to a company's success it's very prevalent now but so it could be a practice um it could be a trend that you see that may not be yeah i would say advertisements that don't add value um people i would say that uh cold calling and cold emailing and cold texting is uh is a big no no and it actually works has the potential to uh work in reverse so i think full of the recent election we had here in Canada um i don't know how it was over in Toronto but i was getting phone calls and text messages from all political parties all the time i don't know even how they got my information and uh the NDP was actually probably the biggest culprit oddly enough uh but it was it was interrupted then it was invasive and although this is a political campaigning thing it's using the same type of marketing uh tactics that a lot of businesses use yeah um it's i didn't ask for the service that you're you know knocking on my door yeah i dropped in me sending me calls i didn't ask for um and there's just there's so much of that and it seems to be getting cheaper and cheaper and cheaper to do and that should be a warning it's like email marketing uh cold emailing uh it's because it's getting cheaper to do it's becoming less and less and less effective and and i think that this whole like uh spray and prey type mentality where none of the messaging is customized obviously whoever's reaching out to you just doesn't give a about your business or you it's just a it's a turnoff because i would argue that if somebody if somebody did reach out to me cold and they knew about me and they knew about my business and i knew about my problems i would be receptive to that much more so i may not buy from it i have no idea but much more so than a generic especially god forbid a political campaign message which is like the who who wants that really who wants that yeah well it's uh by not they're not respecting your time if they haven't actually looked into who you are so what is Scott about how what uh based on what Scott's putting out there what does he care most about yeah uh if if i'm not able to add value to Scott's audience uh in a podcast then i need to rethink what i'm doing here yeah right because you're just to use that as an example no i agree and you know what even like one of the first things when we first jumped on this call you were mentioning you know i've been putting out this podcast and i've been really focusing on putting out content and personal branding because that's as you know as as an individual i think that's very important to build your like you're almost like your professional persona and it's the same the same thing that i tell businesses when i work with businesses or when i work with my own company you have to build out this persona online and a lot people don't even do that properly but you mentioned a couple of points um about different things that i haven't done yet that could be very valuable and like these are things that i've been thinking through but you know what i'm looking at you know what i'm trying to do because you've done like five seconds of research before we jumped on the call and then all of a sudden you're you're 10x more relevant than anyone anyone else if i've spoken to just because you've done that small little bit of and it's like so impactful and it takes really no effort but the second you start caring about somebody um it like it shows because and i think it's sad that it shows so much but the reason why it shows so much is because so few people actually do it so when somebody does do it it really stands out 100% and but i think you just you came full circle around like uh how i how i think that there is a problem uh today and it's that there's a lack of um um that lack of putting the time in to to make your message personal uh to make it not feel like it's a mass produced um disingenuous yeah it's it's really yeah it's putting the time in and showing that you care what do they say that uh people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care yes it is yeah yeah i know all these loves but yeah i think the heart of it is still there uh no and in fact it just is kind of a side point when i was when i was looking more the cool stuff that you've been working on i'm increasing and i was like well actually have a lot of questions i have for him this is i don't know if i'm going to be talking all the time i'd like i want to hear what you're doing and because you're clearly doing a lot of things right yeah thank you but um this podcast i don't know how many people your average audience but my tape the way is that you're creating a lot of value you're giving a lot of insight and you're it's um you're giving a really nice palette of different taste uh like that's always been you know it's funny um so to answer your question it's about about 500 downloads for episode right now uh on average and that's we've only you know i've only been doing this for three four weeks now the podcast now keep in mind keep in mind that i did double down and build a huge audience on LinkedIn and i was uh running um a website where i had contributors writing articles and that already had about a thousand people per day looking at articles on my website before i launched a podcast so this is not like uh putting it into the world day one type thing like there was already a very heavy focus on on business and that was like my target audience because i knew that eventually like like i mentioned before like when i first started doing this i was i was doing consulting work i was trying to find clients and it was obviously mostly marketing so i was speaking about marketing and sales trying to add value that way um but now it's now sort of built out so the second i put out something that's geared towards that audience it definitely does have a little bit of momentum and traction so um yeah so that's that's really where it's at now i can't remember the second part of your question i apologize but i think you would just about like putting this stuff out there um and i i i i well we you have to second part that i totally forget your and i think you and i have a similar uh business philosophy and that like you try and help as many people as well yes generalist yeah he's come back it really does even if that person that you've helped those many people yeah they may have directly you know uh return the favor so to speak but the the more people you help just the more uh the more likely good things will propagate i agree so i'm a big fan um and i hate to plug him so often but uh Gary Vaynerchuk so i'm i subscribe to his content creation and educational philosophy nothing that i do is is gated i don't i don't charge for anything i don't run webinars i don't host master classes i'm not pretending to be some online guru business guru and i can name a couple that i don't really enjoy um because i find them shady as whatever but i think that that i think that too many people putting out uh educational resources online unfortunately um don't monetize it the right way or i think that they play i think they think that they're better than they are and they're charging five thousand dollars for courses or two thousand dollars for webinar listen i know everybody wants to make a buck um but right now luckily unfortunate enough to be to be working full time so this is just something that i do as a as a hobby and i don't need to charge for it so i like just and that's kind of so i like putting my the stuff that i've learned through my career out there and i think i have value because i've sort of seen success in the strategies that i've implemented throughout my different you know businesses and and companies that work for um but also the whole purpose of this podcast is to extract sort of the same type of just best practices because so many people have great stories and a lot of people you know i've listened to a couple podcasts and i find that they're very pigeonholed or they're very you know narrow and scope so i listen to one it's about sales leaders and i listen to another one it's about uh channel partners and it's so specific and i just i think for me i'm just creating content that i would enjoy and i would consume if i was younger in my career and i just wanted to learn things about business in general i want to learn what a marketer does i want to learn what somebody who goes and starts his own marketing firm entrepreneur i want to learn what a consultant does i want to learn about uh you know corporate culture and why it's important i want to learn about sales like i want to learn all these different things um and i just hope that i can sort of help facilitate that by finding people tell it's that's really and there's no you know i don't do this for i don't do this to to sell to somebody it's really just because i enjoy it this is a kind of a dirty hobby but i think you get a lot of great feedback from people like hey that last episode you did yeah about uh what to watch out for when hiring yeah like i ever thought about that like yeah people that always blame other people or something like that yeah definitely like red flag that other than or what you know yeah but little things like that so anyway i appreciate that's very kind that you they mentioned that so i hope that there's some value i just i'm i'm i'm a chance to support what you're doing and uh yeah that's just i'm happy to be be here to have this chat and also i look forward to staying in touch after this and yeah yeah for sure for sure well your story i like i really do appreciate your story and i didn't know your entire story before we spoke and now it's even more impactful to me knowing like all the different all the different steps you took because some people it's very some people their story is not so interesting right some people they have they're very brilliant in what they do but they're like oh yeah you know i went to i went to stanford and i got an mba and now i'm like a nsvp sales out of global tech me and i'm like okay well like good for you and i'm sure like you're incredibly bright but somebody there's something about somebody who had to go through shit and just like figure it out and then come out on the other side being as uh as knowledgeable as you are is is very impressive because obviously it wasn't a linear road and i think that that kind of person is somebody who i enjoy speaking with because there's a lot of depth to that person and they bring different perspective to the table as opposed to somebody who just had like a very you know one way straight straight path of success and i really do think long term it's again failures add value to somebody it makes us more dynamic yeah and on top of it um we uh depending on how wide your interests are and i think you're probably very similar uh we get the advantage of divergent thinking being able to have very different bodies of information but being able to put it together in such a way that you've got a new idea again yeah i agree i agree um okay so let's let's wrap this up this has been going on for a little bit so i don't want to i don't want to drag out the whole podcast but i do want to capture a couple more things before before i close off um because it's been a really good conversation uh if you were going to tell your 20-year-old self one thing what would it be uh don't actually not stay in the positive okay uh remain flexible of what the future can look like i was pretty i was pretty convinced i was going to be a doctor um and that this was going to be the way that i can make a gift of my life uh but it very much wasn't in fact one thing i didn't uh mention uh where i volunteer now it's a couple times a month i volunteer at victoria hospice get to hang out with dying people uh i get to be of service and uh help the nurses help the family members help feeding you know stuff like that and i'm still able to acknowledge that part of who i wanted to be as a doctor but that actually happened to go to medical school so they're um so i'm still able to honor that part of myself um and if if i knew that that that was even possible back then i think i would have been i think it would have helped me be more flexible general you're probably would have taken a lot of weight off your shoulders and like stressors in terms of where you're gonna end up in life if you understood that life was not so black and white yeah i mean i think a lot of young people especially when they're going to college and universities they think they have to do this program they don't realize that uh actually flexibility is greater strength than rigidity yeah yeah um if you were going to speak to somebody and and give them some resources so it could be people that you like to learn from or it could be books audible's podcast where do you go as a resource for information to grow professionally personally whichever yeah um so obviously my friends yeah one place uh i mentor us uh but in terms of like day to day you know if we take that zig ziggler yeah or whatever whatever the quote about motivation meeting happened daily i think that uh education and inspiration uh should be on a daily basis too so uh although i don't do podcasts as much what i have been doing is it's called blankest and there are book summaries about between 12 and 20 minute audio book summaries of books that are so i'm able to get like this roughly maybe five books a week uh like yeah synopsis but a little more detail than that uh to be able to um um more new ideas like is that is that is that not scribbed because scribbed has something like that but it could be okay uh okay um it's totally worth it if uh if you're if you're like like myself i'm a little slower reader actually and that's why audio books are uh i think i do audible um big fan of that but i also do blankest because it's like the the book of the day for me i get to um i remember that one of the first ones i did was a book called anti-fragile and it was a really um because it's such a big broad idea that um that you can have the thing that's anti-fragile that the more you try and break it the stronger it becomes it's a whole new way of looking or a whole new um filter of how to so being able to be exposed to new ideas from people who have spent years researching your books and stuff and to almost daily have exposure to new ideas that's huge um so i would say blankest is good uh audible i love it um i'm big fan of gary fainter check as well um well i mean i'm glad he moved away from the hustle porn yes yes i agree i think there there maybe it was something a bit disingenuous for me about it i don't think that the harder you work the better things are gonna become um in fact this is a bit of a paradox but i find that the more i work on the inside of myself the more my outside world changes right i think that that's a very that's a very um it's an interesting view and i'm not i'm not in disagreement of it but it's hard to it's hard to teach someone that i think it's something that a lot of people have to discover on their own i i'm sure there's probably effective ways to teach it i don't know them but like for instance uh things like meditation that would be an example of doing the internal work uh learning how to become more patient or compassionate or seeking to be better uh at understanding those things when we work on the inside the way that our world around us changes uh uh rune a sopist poet we made be familiar with uh he essentially said those words he's like um the wise man or for me that the young man goes out to try and change the world uh but the wise man changes himself and the world around the changes and that's that's true on multiple levels so uh we're coming back to the hustle porn uh the older Gary Vaynerchuk stuff um it's it's it's better to focus on process than on product and i think the hustle porn thing was about product all the time rather than as you get you improve your process your product automatically improves yeah no very good um is there anything that i didn't touch on that you wanted to do wanted to discuss i not really like this is uh this has been a lot of fun and i appreciate the time and i it's a like wise like wise man it was a good talk i like it no but i hope we get a chance to talk again it doesn't have to be on a podcast though no no no no it doesn't it doesn't have to be on a podcast we can connect after it's all good no i appreciate that um if people want to find you where can they go do you have a website linked in yep um linked in i'm uh grow packer with two hours okay um twitter i barely use okay medium i'm i'm just starting to get on there that was one of the reasons i was like man he's doing some cool stuff i need to learn about yeah it's actually um if you so what what you're referring to if you're listening um i wrote a help deals for hacker new uh it was before they migrated um their entire website or most of their website off medium on at their own domain i think that's where they're at right now and i haven't submitted stuff in a while back it's been about two three months but yeah there's a couple pieces of mine on hack or dune and on the startup and how do you get in there like i just i just submitted i just i just i just i had one piece that uh did really well it was on um the open work like open workplace like basically no baffle everyone open space type startup and it was just basically a commentary on why it's not as effective as a lot of people think it is right and that piece did really well and that i sent that to i think his name's david snuck i think the founder CEO of hacker newm and he reached out to me and he said uh like yeah like you submit it and then um and then i just kept submitting pieces from my medium account and they choose whether or not they allow them or they reject them and right so and uh another question i have is do you do any uh promotion and distribution yourself or do you just write the content and they um so they just get their followers they so they okay so how it works mediums changed a lot so bear with me because medium also now has a paywall that allows mediums editors to curate content and push it out but when i was still writing for hacker noon um i i didn't do anything myself if i wanted to promote it it would just be me you know using i'll use buffer but for for social media but i would just be pushing it out myself whenever i wanted uh but they would take it and they would post it and i think that they would actually choose the tags from not mistaken or they would they would segment it into a certain category and then they would also choose if it was like front page worthy so it could it could be under hacker noon but it may not be front page worthy and it may not be uh newsletter worthy because i also think they send out an email with their top stories uh so i think that well i know that that's their editors that curate and pick so there's like different thresholds of of how well your article does on hacker noon depending on if they like it or if it's relevant they run series two so there could be like a series that trying to run and if you write an article that fits into that series then they'll promote that or whatnot so yeah so once you get it in there then they choose how they want to uh how they want to promote it there's no like paid option then you can pay for like an expertise or something like that right because i'm uh i just recently uh got accepted to i think it's called note worthy it's a median publication yes i know it yeah uh and the guy reached out and said hey we'd we'd love to you know uh have you considered doing some writing and i'd never had that before and like it's that pretty neat uh medium now there's a few kind of like black hat type tricks i was doing to get attention um like for instance getting the social sharing component so laying up yeah i'm not sure if this is uh i mean well this is useful information no i think it's all good it's all listen man like this is this is this is this is it doesn't matter do you sir these are these are trade secrets fine this is up to you whatever you want to talk about however you expand your reach online it's really your choice um but go ahead yet to uh to give a a few kind of useful nuggets uh because i i came in strong talking about loving ripping off uh yes search engine uh so i'd i'd like to uh i'd like to offer some more insight please dude this has been the best by the way this has been the most in-depth marketing conversation i've ever had so like please continue i really appreciate it oh okay um so here's some some kind of useful tactics that don't really take a lot of uh extra work in fact uh please reach out to me if there's anybody yes that wants to i'll link your info in the show notes but we like we can by by getting things like uh social shares like um and social signals they're like uh retweets and Facebook shares uh and all these types of things they trick the algorithm whether it's medium publication or Facebook yeah or looked in into thinking that this is potentially viral content yeah right because they there's no way i think it's for every uh minute a video uploaded to youtube now or yeah for every minute there's something like 40 hours of content it would just uh we don't have enough time to actually watch all the content it's so much getting uploaded all the time and it's not just youtube it's it's everywhere so they have it at algorithms in place to be able to detect this might be uh this might have viral potential because of the amount of engagement that a post gets in the first 15 minutes to hour depending on the platform right so by by gaining them by giving by paying for uh likes and yeah yeah it'll it'll it'll it'll it'll hit that algorithm and then it'll take off and be shown yep exactly so i've heard of i've heard of things like this and there's different tools that can do this i didn't i didn't know this existed with medium and i don't actually know how the different platforms interact with each other so i don't know uh if youtube can understand if for example uh this video has been retweeted 500 times or if it's just the likes native to that platform or the comments that are native to that platform well i've actually i've done some really interesting experiments like from my airbnb listings my gain to get the highest visibility uh social networks have a combination of uh both their internal SEO like you say like within youtube say it's got its likes and comments etc but then it also has its external SEO so how many twitter shares of that youtube video or facebook or Pinterest or you know yeah well um so so it's you wouldn't be able to fully game it just only taking one angle so by getting a really comprehensive it helps future proof uh your your SEO but you must have to know which if you're going to do this um you must have to know which uh like what's the most optimal method of hitting this algorithm properly so you yeah you want to you want to have it happen as quickly as possible within that first 15 minutes to first hour you know we we know with things like um engagement pod yeah exactly that uh there's different ways to use that you can have those five minute engage uh you posted the post a while ago uh but if you post a post recently you'd want to have your engagements closer together yeah right because that's going to help trick me but if you posted this post say a month ago then by having by flicking on your engagement tool uh to every five minutes it looks a little more natural than all of a sudden it's just getting this burst yeah there's no social shares associated with it so it looks like a lip and an anomaly that they would say hey someone's trying to game us yeah so it's it's taking into account how they would be looking at it so doing a whole bunch of social shares and then uh pumping a whole bunch of traffic through it yeah you have a good way of tricking them into thinking hey this is have you actually mapped out like a process that's optimized for each like platform uh i've yeah i mean i've been uh i've been working on a few of them very cool but we don't have to record your trade secrets but i think it's very cool yeah no like a core that core is another one um uh and in fact for yourself it i'm not sure if you use it much i i don't use it as much as actually i don't use it at all to be honest i i use it for content ideas so sometimes um i'll put out so if you look at my LinkedIn you'll see me answering questions all the time so those are questions that i find on kora or they could be questions that i find on LinkedIn but if i don't have questions i'll just go answer a question on kora on video with my with my insider perspective on it and it's just easy for me to not have to think about new content yep but i know that's not really the way we're supposed to use kora is supposed to be answering the questions but well no it's a great but that's a growth hack right yes and being able to and then another useful growth hack with kora would be like using google and see what the auto complete is and then you have a better idea of like what kind of good questions to be asking yes core may not be ready or not populated yet for that's a really good point can we answer it paid for a bunch of our votes yeah and then your answer is permanently stuck to the top you just have to make sure you have quality content yes yes of course but yeah it bypasses their system and the trouble is and maybe this is going to answer one of the other questions around misconceptions uh in the industry but a lot of people don't realize this shit this is so easy to gain unfortunately like i like i just said with the kora thing yeah you had 30 upvotes for less than 10 bucks yeah right and then you've permanently not permanently but you've locked in a pretty reliable traffic source or a question that your potential persona is asking and people don't realize how easy this is and how everybody is gaming all of your big influencers are doing gaming with some kind the gaming of the platforms are on yeah and if you don't think the that's true like at one point i didn't realize that was true you're gonna have books like i did that never sold anything because when it was bad it was bad information you actually a lot of people uh know the vulnerabilities of these platforms and that's why there many of them are on the top right yeah so uh it's it's it would be ignorant to deny that all of these platforms are gameable and because there's so many great so much great content that just doesn't get visible because people think uh no it's unfortunate um two two points come to mind i know i know a gentleman i don't this is in all seriousness not me because i have no idea how to do this but i do know somebody that can guarantee like an like uh uh an amazon bestseller for a book or all like it depends on when you list it and the certain time and like you can always get that best seller again and again and again so i know that that's a thing um i know that i was actually reading an article and i don't remember the name of the gentleman it was on linkedin but it was he was going on about how all your favorite influencers are really just growth hackers that know how to exploit a certain system at a certain point and it could be when the system is very immature and they haven't developed a very robust algorithm to to avoid that kind of thing or maybe other stuff yeah so like the example with um i talked about in one of my uh piece of content it's called pumping uh i first heard about it on uh Facebook groups essentially it's you comment under your post in a group and then you delete the comment and then you comment again and delete the comment and do this repeatedly uh and then it tricks Facebook because of the amount of engagement or the comments yeah it didn't recognize that you were deleting the comments it just recognized me that's what happened and it would boost people's posts in in in Facebook in Facebook groups and now this happened a few years ago um and i was just hearing about it as often growth hacks happen yeah just as if they were clamping down on it they were figuring off right i just found out it's too light plus i didn't have Facebook groups um but i i was on LinkedIn a few years ago and i realized that that actually is it was i was able to get traffic in uh linked in groups when there were a little more yeah uh by doing bumping because they didn't actually have a uh a mechanism in place to prevent that type of gaming so i was able to and i had my my special tracking url so i could see all the traffic that was coming to these that was targeted in these groups and it was lots and we're talking hundreds of clicks uh proposed that's very powerful stuff like you think about that that's targeted traffic and it's neat traffic yeah we made we got more traffic for free with this method in fact i'd even use uh other other employees accounts to help get that immediate engagement upfront so that we would be getting um in LinkedIn groups you'd get emails to those group members about the the hottest topic stuff and we were only being talked so it was like uh so that's an example of how easy it was now you can't do that easily today uh i don't know if you you talk much about Lempod but um yeah well that's another thing so it's uh yeah i i know that i know the service so it's just about getting as much engagement as you can upfront so that's like that's specific to LinkedIn yeah so i'm sure i don't know if there's other ones like that and across other social platforms i'm sure there are so um you know it's funny as as we keep talking i'm really like oh actually this is where i should tell you that uh but engagement tools are one of the one of the um one of the huge value buttons that uh packers need so Lempod is an example of one growth hacking engagement tool but there are so many now uh i had 160 instagram bots at one point back in 2015 so i've experimented a lot with different bots and different engagement tools but the uh there there's a lot i think there's one called hubert where it's similar to buffer and that you can schedule posts yeah in addition to that you're able to see you have a youtube channel i'm sure you do yeah you have your youtube channel automate liking and commenting on other people's channels right so that you're able to drive more organic traffic back to your um that's one example i mean the twitter and instagram similar thing with the follow on follow bots yeah right in the commenting and i i think that that opportunity is gone i don't really recommend that for people anymore no i think that i think that you have to be i'm gonna get to be careful about where you're spending your time and energy and effort and you also have to be careful that if you are going to do any of these things there's a good chance that it goes against the terms of service so you your account can get shut down too so if it's uh you know the business account it's yet to be very careful about this stuff don't i remember building uh one instagram account for a previous company from zero to forty two thousand using uh a bot yeah yeah i mean it's not just a bot you have you need content you need content and you need non-yance but the it it was a very inexpensive way of creating a real community uh in in b2b you know it's it's difficult uh versus business to consumer yes because you have multiple people you have to sell to versus b2c it's just one person you have to sell so getting and everybody has the potential to shut the deal down in b2b yeah so by getting as many different people to buy on you know and communicate to them in the platforms that they want to be communicated with yeah it's uh yeah of course sophisticated when do you think um do you think there will be a point where companies that don't understand these tools are just not going to be able to compete i think good the there's actually a book on this tube by the way um about the x director of marketing at american apparel uh i can't remember the name of the book but it was along this line where he was understanding how with like a fraction of his marketing budget yeah like he he was like from the old world of marketing right where it cost millions to generate this many you know impressions engagement conversions whatever and then all these startups who had no budget had to understand how to game systems to get traction and even actually i i'm gonna like i want to just tell over one more thing while we're recording because it was a very cool um it was a very cool growth act that he referred to in this book and i should probably figure out the name of the book for start quoting but whatever it's a really cool point um uh he it was when um hotmail was just just launching and at the end of every hotmail or i may be missing this story but basically it said made made with love or please share or there was like a silly little like heart with a call to action there was that was imprinted on the bottom of every single person's email and yeah and it had prompted and this is like obviously this is not a bought this was built by the platform but just an example of how you're using zero dollars in in marketing spend or ad spend and that one simple trick that is just like massively scalable and and touches so many different people that basically is what made hotmail a thing yep made it go viral yeah yeah so i can't remember what the name of the book is or the guy who was speaking but anyway that's i'll have to find it and and link it below but so yeah with uh with good engagement tools i would i would say lymphawt is really fantastic if you're on uh if you're doing business to business or anyone who um either generate more leads uh your uh in some way related to the HR field of recruiting obviously that but then they're together there's there's depending on who your audience is finding out what platforms they spend the most time on and then figuring out what are what are the inherent flaws of the the platform right like yeah whatever whatever something strength is it has a uh equally powerful weakness right yeah because well the the the the strength is the reach so how do you exploit that reach yeah well that that's part of the that's part of the strength but yeah what i mean you probably heard this before every you can't have a superpower unless it can be equally used for evil yes yeah yeah oh i just i googled it while we're it's it's Ryan holiday and the book is why all marketers should be growth hackers and hot hot mail put um ps i what did they put at the bottom of their emails they put um so he was the x director of of marketing at american apparel and at the bottom of each hotmail said ps i love you at the bottom of each hotmail sent out and i guess that was and there was a call to action to sign up for hotmail beside that and that prompted everybody to to sign up and that was a viral that that's just a one one line of text built into hotmail and that that built hotmail into a i don't know when it was sold if it was for billions um but it was a an enormous obviously um you know exactly so now yeah um another interesting one is with uh let's say you're doing paid ads for facebook i have one of the ways to gain facebook in this way is driving some fake traffic to your ad before you make it an ad so that the metrics show hey this is great content can you lower your cost or send out the ad right because like because they now facebook knows its quality and now you're you're caught oh that's very smart i've never thought of about that before but that's so there are all these interesting vulnerabilities in their their systems yeah that are totally in my opinion subject to be yeah here's another useful one before before we go do you ever do uh youtube ads i have it no that's one thing that i haven't taken advantage of so so for uh this one's an easy one to remember and if if forever uh you're like hey what was that thing that Dara said about youtube ads yeah is again um when you're doing your ads you're you set your your bid price you only get charged after 30 seconds so if they they bounce before the 30 seconds you don't get charged for the youtube ad you obviously want to have it over 30 seconds whatever your video is but then every week or two go in take the average of what your ppc was so your bid price will be like say 10 cents yeah and for the few days you will literally spend 10 cents per view but then after a week or two you go in and then you take the average and then you'll notice oh it's now the average is eight cents so you drop your uh your bid price to eight cents and you keep doing this until you're paying one cent per view that's crazy very way of getting low cost ads for video and videos in the future yes ivory yeah nice uh if you want to stay on top of uh SEO for the next couple of years here's all here here's all it is it's video it's a voice and it's schema schema uh if if you're not familiar with uh it's like when you type into google uh search and it shows you boxes of information now that's schema okay okay um so those three things are the future of SEO if you want to if you want to cement a lead right now I would say immediately do video because there's just not a lot of well indexed video and it's it's already beating search engine results for search right they're showing YouTube videos and regular search now because it's just the way that we're transitioning so uh yeah probably given a lot to unpack here so I think it's very good I I I understand most of what you're saying um because I'm a big fan of of trying to find ways to uh on a budget reach a massive amount of people so I think that if people are totally if people are listening to this and they just like what the hell is he talking about I would say you know take it slowly with a grain of salt just understand that um the ability to reach massive amounts of people regardless of whether or not you use a tool or you use an algorithm hack or we use something as simple as uh looking for if you want to create content if you're a content marketer and you want to find a content that's going to obviously speak to a lot of people you look for a question on Cora you answer that question on LinkedIn if that if that question of the ton of up those on Cora obviously it's going to be a popular topic to speak about on LinkedIn that's violating nobody's terms of service and that's a very uh white hat type of of hack person so it depends on your taste for or your appetite for what you want to do but there's something you should think into yes exactly or look into all right thank you dara so much that was an incredible interview we really went into the weeds in a great way uh everything from the psychology of selling why people buy human interaction and body language to best practices current landscape of marketing and then the most cutting edge emerging marketing trends technologies they can help they can help leverage your ability to understand why people buy uh the the messaging and branding that a company has to create for itself and then using these two drivers to augment your presence through all of these different marketing technologies social media technologies and all the avenues and and tools and tricks and growth hacks that we have available today to to bring your message to a much wider audience uh dara provided some amazing insight so thanks again dara i really really appreciated that chat if you want to speak with dara you can or hit them up on LinkedIn LinkedIn dot com slash in slash growth hacker with two hours uh this has been another sales versus marketing where we speak with sales marketing and business leaders if you haven't already wherever you are listening to this podcast uh stitcher spotify a cast tune in iTunes please leave a like uh share leave a comment any rating is fine as long as at the five star rating you can also catch this podcast on youtube youtube dot com slash c slash ROI overload so please leave a like or a comment there as well and share this podcast with your friends families peers co-workers anybody who you think would enjoy it um you can also uh if you have any people that you'd like to hear on this podcast please hit me up and i will interview them you can find me on linkedin linkedin dot com slash in slash s Douglas clary or shoot me an email s Douglas clary at gmail dot com this has been another sales versus marketing i hope you all enjoyed everybody have a great week have a productive week and we will speak again soon bye now welcome to scott's thoughts where we dissect some of the main points that we just spoke about in these sales versus marketing podcast so this week we spoke with dara grove white who is a digital growth guru mastermind growth hacker whatever you want to call it uh outside of the tactical insights that he gave over in in our discussion i wanted to highlight a couple things that are super important um the first is understanding the psychology of selling understanding human interaction understanding how to build these relationships if you can't do that it doesn't matter how good your product is how good your marketing is the most effective way to engage with people and build that relationship is understanding how people function and being able to build that relationship with them um another point that i really like that he brought home was the disconnect between creator and distribution from a marketing point of view so the first point psychology of selling with sales disconnect between creator creator and distribution is marketing so understand that even though you're creating great content you have to understand how to get it to the masses so you have to you have to be proficient in your different mediums and your different channels uh in your different tool sets if you if you know how to growth hack and get your if you know how to growth I can get your content to a massive audience uh obviously you want to maximize your ROI or dollar spent because you don't want to uh you don't want to go broke getting it out there but just creating it isn't good enough you have to understand how to get it to the people who care so obviously there is a huge disconnect between creator and distribution and that's something just to keep in mind when you are creating content and you are putting it out into the world uh so let's let's see we got one sales point that i loved one marketing point that i loved and then the last point that i really really liked was his uh his strategy for for forward thinking marketers who are working within organizations that may not be as forward thinking if you are trying to manage up if you are trying to effectively uh effectively change manage uh your entire organization to move them in the right direction that's probably one of the most difficult things to do as a leader or somebody who's trying to affect change within an organization um because you want to get your ideas action you want to get your ideas implemented and it's very hard to do if your leadership isn't buying in so tip that he gave there was a leadership lesson for us on how to manage up is to launch your initiatives as pilot projects which removes some of the fear around the initiative that you're taking on it also allows you to map out KPIs if they haven't already been effectively mapped out and it shows that you it also and thirdly and lastly uh it allows you to showcase how effective your pilot project is so it just removes some of the fear uh and some of the apprehension that upper management may have about you as a marketer within an organization trying some new thing so that's another uh another great takeaway so one sales one marketing one leadership way more that we've learned in the podcast so go back and listening in with the pen and paper if you haven't already this has been another Scott's thoughts thanks again for listening hope everybody has a great week has a productive week and we will speak again soon bye now thanks for listening to the sales versus marketing podcast brought to you by roi overload delivering strategy technology and insights to both sales and marketing leaders and teams globally you